Friends Thru A Lens: 'It's all Relative' with Dr Dolly Alderton

0:00Hi, everyone. Little heads up before you listen to this week's episode. We had some technical failings on the day of record here. I went to Dolly's house. We had a lovely time. my very trusty portable microphones for some reason failed on me that day mercury was in retrograde and we dug out dolly's old podcasting microphone from a sock drawer and whatever way she was storing that thing i don't know but the audio quality here is not what i would normally expect so please be patient with it it's still a great episode i'm very fond of it and please enjoy dr dolly alderton

0:43Hello and welcome to Friends Through a Lens, the podcast where I talk about the aspects of the show Friends Through a Specific Lens with one of my real-life friends. And today on the show, the category is It's All Relative with Dolly Alderton. Maybe one of the best jokes in the whole show. It's so good. Is the game show. This is such a good idea for a miniseries. I've been waiting for Prince. I'm loving it. What's been your favourite episode so far? I love the weddings episode Yeah, so good Because I just love weddings as a trope Within storytelling I just think it's so cosy and so funny But it's interesting Now, when I was thinking about the weddings I have never gone back to watch Monica and Chalmler's wedding And I re-watch Ross and Emily's wedding I think three times a year Are you annoyed that?

1:34You're not getting the space today To talk about Waltham and Tears Okay, I'm so upset about it because I actually think I pitched this to you off the back of Waltham Interiors. Waltham Interiors is my favourite two lines uttered on the silver screen ever. It's still up in like every episode, Waltham Interiors. I love it. Do you know, there's something about the characterisation of those two characters that's like, it's so, the English upper class is in such a recognisable way of basically a man and a woman who have nothing in common other than when they were young, he made money and she was hot.

2:10And her life is now just about spending as much money as possible with all her weird little projects. And his life is about spending as little time with her as possible and making money. And they, I'm sorry, they are always interior designers, those women. They just saw. Or they're garden designers, like landscape designers as well. They reach a certain level of posh where they take all of their interests outside. And it's all, because it's all about horses and dogs and all that stuff. on grounds they hit a ceiling and then they're no longer comfortable with sofas and fabric swatches they're going outside they're going topiary they're going water features they're going privet hedges maybe they move out of London they move to the Cotswolds and if it had been filmed 20 years later it would have been Waltham Gardens Waltham Landscaping Waltham Gardens I'm so obsessed with the power of the words Waltham Interiors that I have suggested to Caroline who still hasn't set up a limited company even though I've been on at her about it for five years that she i've checked waltham interiors limited is still available as a limited company i really need you i need you to start a company called waltham interiors first of all i'm never going to do that now because the thing is people when someone has a limited company people loved and they say what it is it's like oh here's my joke jokey name then they fucking search it and it goes on fucking the daily mail i know for old joanne mcnally she's had her entire statements printed everywhere.

3:37Sometimes when I'm like on a deadline and I'm feeling that I just want to procrastinate, there is one famous writer's name I just put into company's house. So you know who it is because I've sent you pictures. Yeah, yeah. But I don't know why it's like... It's a very inclusive chat we're having, isn't it? Very, really, again, once again, pushing the listeners on how much shit they'll put up with. How much exclusive London media 1 % bullshit. Dropping the curtain. But everyone has one of those things of like when you've exhausted everything on the internet. Yeah, yeah. When you've exhausted the internet.

4:16You've been on And Other Stories. You've been on Gmail. You've been on Instagram. You can't bring it back down to earth with And Other Stories. Thank you. Like it is in my Teresa. I would have gone ASOS. Yeah. But you would have called me out for that being too unrealistic. and then you find your and then you find your like secret little you find your groove yeah it's like your speakeasy on the internet sometimes I look I just put like famous actors and I'll just see I just want to see how much money is Michael Sheen really giving away I just want to see what's in their savings what they've withdrawn where their offices register I've done that with everybody who appears on Plum Sykes' newsletter I just type their name into it anyway Can we talk about what we're talking about?

5:03Which is that when I pitched the series to you, you said immediately, it's all relative, the relatives of friends. And you immediately had this entire thesis statement typed into WhatsApp of all the different, how, I mean, I think when we talked about Sex and the City, the kind of thesis of Sex and the City is like all of the men that these women meet are there to sort of teach them something. And I actually, I think you said something in the WhatsApp that was like all of the familial relations that exist for friends. Because as we know, and we've said many times in this podcast so far, that kind of the point of friends is the period of one's life where your friends matter more than your family.

5:41But all of these people do come from families of different sort of shapes and sizes. And it sort of sets the quest in motion for them. Absolutely. If Sex and the City is men that teach you about a lesson you need to hear, the families of friends set up what that lesson is. completely and I think as well I remember reading once a film critic was saying about the work of Nora Ephron and her peer group that the most important influence on them was were not other filmmakers it was the like standardization of western therapy of analysis yeah like that became a thing during the time that these people were growing up and then making their art and I that about David Crane as well, that this would have been a group of people, particularly in LA, in a period where they were coming of age, where analysis and self-reflection was like a really important part of how you get your material as a writer.

6:36And the first therapy that I did was Freudian therapy, which obviously is just about everything goes back to the parents. And I do think it's very persuasive, not just in friends, but in life generally, to make the connections between how you form attachments romantically and whether that's a correction or a rejection of what you experienced in your family home. And I think each friend is a different template for all the different ways that you can either replicate or reject the family life. That's so interesting. You just said something there at the beginning that like I'd never thought about before, which is that you're right there.

7:11There is a kind of a sea change where and I guess you see it as early as something like Annie Hall where so much of like those characters growing is about him pushing her to see his analyst and like how that changes her and stuff and like you are right that as a show they do refer to each other's psychology quite a lot like they refer to Chandler being unable to cry and not unable to have arguments yeah like if we're used to these kind of like up till now these sort of sitcom characters who have like outsized character flaws and they feel like they're stupid or greedy or dumb or all these like very human flaws that we can sort of extenuate with the power of sitcom.

7:50The flaws of Friends are quite nuanced. I mean like Chandler's thing which we'll get into in a minute is so really quite complex for a half hour show that's aimed at everyone aged 8 to 80 of like this kind of stunted regressed character who can't express himself and can only really communicate through jokes. And then even like I find Rachel's character quite nuanced in that she is this incredibly cool girl who everyone wants to get near and be friends with but she's also sort of a bit sort of just spoiled and kind of unprepared for life in a way I find very recognizable sometimes especially in those early seasons when she's still on that journey um I never thought about that before but yeah of course like the friends coincides with the sort of mass acceptance that everybody who's creative and lives in New York, also has a therapist.

8:37Yeah. I would say nearly all the jokes is about quite intricate psychoanalysis. Yeah. I did like a really try-hardy paper when I was at uni that was like comparing all the characters of Friends to the characters and the tropes of Comedia dell 'Arte. Beautiful. So glad we met. Oh my God. Can you imagine if you and I had met when we were, I mean, we talk about this all the time. We would have been so unbearable. Yeah. The other day, my friend Lauren reminded me that in my statement for university, it ended with a quote from Joni Mitchell, from a Joni Mitchell song called Woodstock. And the line is, we are stardust, we are golden, and we have to get ourselves back to the garden.

9:27And I quoted that and I said, this is a sentiment I'd love to live out at your university. we must get back to the garden at royal holloway university great but yeah i think so much of the so much of the comedy is about understanding everything understanding everything about these characters and then the comedy being that them doing something that's totally predictable and aligns with what we know of their character or totally out of character and that also is funny But as you said, what we know about them normally in sitcom is quite broad brushstrokes understanding of like these splodges of characterization.

10:09Whereas with this stuff, it's like Monica is really controlling. And that's probably because of her controlling mother. Yeah. Or she was a fat teenager. So now she's very controlled with her lifestyle or, you know. It all joins up. No matter who we're talking about, it all joins up. It's like, it really is if this, then this, but thinking of like quite advanced psychological thinking, which is for, again, for what is supposed to be a broad brush sitcom that plays to every country in the world in every language for every age group and every demographic. But that's because that is actually what we all do about our friends.

10:50Yeah. All we do is just sit around and talk about why our friends are the way we are. Even when they're driving you mad, you'll be like, well, to be fair, It's because of that thing that happened with her dad Or she never faced the trauma of this Or if you look at the pattern with her partners That's why, you know, that's what we love doing What was it even like to have a friend Pre the mainstreaming of Psycho Talk? Do you know what I mean? Yeah When my mum was just like He just WhatsApp would have been out of business Sitting around with her Exactly When my mum was sitting around with her mates in 1981 or whatever When they were bitching Where they were just like She's being a bit of a cow Yeah And then would the conversation just end there Or would they not talk about like That her dad ran out of her mum or whatever Do you know what I mean What was it like to have a friend in 1981 Please write it I genuinely want to know Let's watch Cheers and find out But yeah Everything joins up Even what you were saying about Rachel being so Recognisable and actually weirdly When I was growing up and obsessed with friends Like all of our generation was I remember being really really disliking Rachel And it's because as I've got older I think she is the one that I identify the most with I was gonna say this actually I was thinking about this last night Because obviously everybody I've spoken to on this miniseries Has talked about which friend I identify with And people are often almost too scared to identify with Rachel Because it's a bit like identifying as Carrie Bradshaw Or identifying as Joe March It's like well I'm the main one The one everyone's obsessed with That's me but actually I was like oh Dolly is Rachel actually because like you are somebody that like people are obsessed with people love getting close to people ask a lot of and love being with and is cool and is fun but like you like everybody have stuff to get through like I have bits of that in me as well but just like I watched an episode last night where Rachel first she's trying to take the garbage out and she refuses to empty the bin and Monica's like just empty the bin just go downstairs and go into the whatever the trash room and then she's trying to shove a pizza box down the chute and she just won't break it down yes she just keeps shoving it and then that's the moments i just relate to her so i relate to her so much and then she turns around and trigger is there and he's just like you just you've never given a thought to any other person in your life i've spent a half an hour unplugging that you don't think about anybody yet and she starts crying and i felt for her so i was like that's me yeah it's like it's not that i'm like it's not that I'm horrible, I'm just self-involved.

13:18Totally. I think her flaws are just so relatable. It's like how self-involved she is. I think she's quite anxious. I think she's quite fearful, which probably informs her self-involvement and kind of self-preservation. Her vanity, I really identify with. I think her kind of, she's got quite big delusions in romance. She's a bit of a fantasist. That part of Rachel's character is quite interesting. I've really noted on this rewatch of like yeah she is like a fantasist and a gangster romance she's always like reading romance or writing romance or the episode I rewatched this morning was when they go to Judy and Jack's wedding anniversary oh yeah and Judy and Jack are like really upset that they're pregnant out of wedlock so they pretend that they're married and then Rachel just has the best day of her life at this wedding oh yeah yeah yeah talking about the fake wedding that she had with Ross where people said she looked like a floating angel that I just identify so much with her I just think there's something like so like childlike about her in a way that's and also it makes so much sense that again when you meet her two sisters yeah I was gonna say that we're talking about the relatives let's like start we're on Rachel now so let's start with Rachel and we'll drill down so I think Rachel is like what my by the way I've asked you this so many times and every time I ask you this you just ignore it Please can we credit me on this episode As Dr Dolly Alderson Yes Can we please Yes we can Thank you I think it will be an insult to the many PhD students Who are trying to be doctors But okay if you think If you think you've done as much work about friends As they have about whatever the fuck they're on about I've googled so many times If I'm allowed Because I have an honorary doctorate If I'm allowed to use it And you are allowed to use it but it's highly frowned upon by the academic community.

15:20Okay, you can meet, you can, I will literally list you as Dr. Daliado. Thank you. So in my thesis of the family templates that are offered up, I think the story that's offered up with Rachel Green is a story of someone who wants to break generational patterns and traumas with her behaviour. So she, her father is this like incredibly paternalistic, angry, domineering, seems quite misogynistic man who had seemingly very little in common with his ex-wife. It doesn't sound like he really respected her. It doesn't sound like she really respected him. And then and women within that family are expected to marry and stop working.

16:10Rachel's story is about marrying the man who could not be more the opposite of her dad Ross is like the beta male And what was so important for her was about having independence Having her own identity, making her own money, having this huge career So I think that's the big story that's offered with her of how her adult life has been a total kind of correction of what she was taught when she was young in her family home. And I think what's fascinating about that as I've been watching through, and often when I've been doing these episodes, I have been like essentially picking a theme, gathering many episodes from across the series and then watching them in order.

16:53So I'll watch something from season two, then season seven, then season nine or whatever. And it's very interesting with Rachel because the first half of the show, it feels like it's all about her trying to beat this narrative, her trying to learn about the world her trying to be a kind of a human being being a fully rounded person and not just this kind of girl who ornaments a room and then once she achieves that it's all about mythologising that fact that she did that when her sisters Jill and Amy who are Reese Witherspoon and Christina Applegate respectively come in, it's all about teaching those women how they can be more like Rachel and she tries and she fails and she falls out with them and she finally, when I think Christian Applegate's character comes back twice and eventually she reaches this kind of final stage of enlightenment of Rachel Green where she was like she was a naive little tool trying to learn the world then she learned the world then she mythologized the fact that she learned the world and that she broke out on her own and came to the city and got this big career and whatever and there's this moment where she looks at Amy and she just says I've been trying to make you into me but actually you're a pretty perfect version of what you are and like Amy's really touched by this because she's like thank you because Amy's just like a massive bitch but really fun Amy is such a good character she's so Reese Witherspoon feels like stunt casting I think Reese Witherspoon is like an amazing actor but I don't I don't love Jill as a thing but Amy it's just like it's just real it's just true you meet one of those women I would say it's like one in 500 women.

18:26Yeah. I was at a dinner recently with one of them. One in 500 women? It's so interesting to watch them. They're like, they're just so crucially so hot and have always been gorgeous from the day they were born until the day they die they will be gorgeous. Yeah. And they are just so fucking rude. And they have no idea how rude they're being. And it's almost like... And they don't think it's funny. Yeah, yeah. And it's not like a cute thing, but they are just, if this was coming out of the mouth of anyone who didn't look like them, they would be like so outcast from society. Like, let's give a reminder of the kind of things that Amy says to people because it's so brilliant.

19:09Every time it makes me laugh so much where it's like she meets Joey and she goes, oh my God, you're on Days of Our Lives. And he goes, yeah. And she goes, oh, you are not good. It's so good. And they, oh, they must put a lot of makeup on you. It's almost like, I think you could view Amy Through the lens of neurodivergence I'm just sure you were going to go there And I'm glad you've gone there Because I'm not saying that Being neurodivergent makes you a massive bitch But I have met incredibly good looking women Who clearly don't understand social cues And also haven't been course corrected in the same way Because of their beautiful faces And say crazy things That are just like And it's actually The way that Amy delivers it It's like not born out of Because generally when people but someone's being a massive bitch of a normal day.

19:54It's because they feel jealous, they feel vulnerable, they're insecure or whatever. It's coming from a place of like darkness that they wish wasn't there. But Amy almost does it in this kind of morally neutral way. She doesn't know she's doing it. She's just doing it. And I think women find it kind of unnerving and then they try harder to be nice to that person and be friends with them because they think they have to seek approval. Yes, that's it, that's it. So that's how they end up having friends. And then men just find it like so fit. So really, it's the world's fault for not teaching the Amy's.

20:30Yeah. Really. I tell you what men hate, and I know this because I was one, like a mean, rude, spotty, chubby six foot girl. They do not like that. But if you look like Christina Applegate in the noughties and you are horrible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They want you to tread on their balls. They will give you everything. They will give you everything. They will sell everything they own for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They've seen it time and time again. She's such a great character. Yeah. And what's the peak that she does? She wants to, the job that she decides, inspired by Rachel, the job that she decides to do to make it on her own is not to be a baby stylist.

21:18Yeah, she wants to be a baby stylist, but it turns out people don't want to hear their babies aren't cute.

21:25Like it's like she takes like the way that her character is introduced is that it's when Emma's just been born. The start of the episode is when I can't remember what it's called now, but it's sort of season seven, season eight. There's a knock on the door. Rachel is living in Ross's house. and the it's like who is it it's your favorite sister and they both look at each other go Jill but the way that Ross says it it's almost like I'm not even sure if Jill is her favorite sister she doesn't have a favorite sister she just has sisters yeah which I think is important and uh then she comes through and she's like oh she's had she's like hi do you have a hair straightener she's never met the baby she uh starts straightening her hair her like her her her Thanksgiving plans fall through because her boyfriend is married and he has to spend Thanksgiving with his wife and then where she's like um this is kind of a private conversation do you mind if I go upstairs and Ross goes you can we don't live up there and then she goes oh it's it's just these rooms it's just that again and again the joke never changes it's just her being completely unaware of her surroundings in a really hot mean way in a dead eye totally like yeah it's so it's so funny so where do you see so I think I think the kind of pecking order is Rachel first then Amy then Jill right I yeah is that how you picture it is that Rachel's the eldest yeah yeah that's exactly how I would have done it it's interesting as well both of the Amy and the Jill entrances into the Friends world mirrors Rachel Green's first episode of her walking into Central Perk in a moment of crisis.

23:09Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like the exact same thing with both of them. I'm going to teach you how to be me. Yeah. And both of them rejecting that in different ways. So when you get Jill's character doing it, it's, what is it? It's like, she gets cut off by daddy because she bought her friend a boat. Yeah. They're like, her friends are the wrong sister. And then they sort of take her in and she goes out with Ross. And that's kind of a thing I find really interesting as well, because it's like, it's played quite well. The whole like, is Jill allowed to go out with Ross? Because Rachel has that initial thing of being like, oh, okay.

23:47And then she just goes mental being like, absolutely not. And then where it ends up is Ross doesn't go out with her. It actually progresses their kind of relationship on quite a bit. Cause he says, if anything were to ever happen with Jill, that would mean nothing would ever happen with you and I ever again, which I think is good plotting. from the writing. It's like they don't have to give us anything, but they also can keep the flame alive. Yeah. In like, again, we've brought it up a lot, but the way they stretch out Ross and Rachel over 10 seasons by just giving us these little breadcrumbs of like every now and then, like a little like, keep the candle burning, everyone.

24:21We're not done with this. Yeah. How old were you when it was the last episode? Do you remember? Oh God. Maybe 13? Yeah, I was like about 16, I think. so you would have been yeah mid mid-teens it's I remember it so well and I have never I don't think I have ever or will ever care about two fictional characters love story yeah as much as I do about them it's kind it's hard to it's really like there's really nothing quite like it in the same way because you could even like where does it map along the sort of big and carry like the two a love story that we witnessed for 30 years and that ended in one of their deaths Yeah Like Where would you map Your caring about Ross and Rachel Versus your caring About Carrie Big I just Different universes Yeah It's interesting I've been I've been thinking about It a lot Because have you been Watching Nobody Wants This No Of course Because you hate Being told to watch Modern TV There's nothing Caroline hates more I know Than being recommended A TV show Being recommended Anything I hate being No I hate being recommended A restaurant I hate being I hate being recommended A film with like Tom Gonti in the 1970s Yeah yeah That'll pick up But you hate being told to watch So do you though We're the same in this But you just also But you also just don't You don't watch masses of new TV do you?

25:45No Which is really bad Because I'm making new TV I don't think it is bad Do you not think? No I actually think the most important thing As any kind of writer For inspiration Isn't reading and isn't watching I think it's the quality of your personal relationships. Do you really think that? I believe it's the quality of the conversations that you have with people. Yeah, I do think you're right on that. I think the conversations you have are the things that inform your characters and your dialogue. Maybe you can learn about story and plotting from watching stuff, which is why I just never understand this idea of the secluded writer.

26:23Yeah. Because I just think your writing is only as good as the... As the conversations you're suffering. nights in the pub basically but then what about all these like amazing famous writers who like famously had one friend or whatever I think that happens as you get I think that happens as you I think that all of those people who went and lived on a hill if you read like early life on their Wikipedia page the likelihood is they were around loads and loads of people they would have had like a big family or they would have you know worked in a job with loads I just think that's the only way that you learn about human behavior and it's like that classic thing of every general meeting that you take for as a tv writer what they say is what we're looking for is like serialized rom-com like a tv rom-com and nobody wants this is really good I'm really enjoying it but it definitely shows the challenge of doing a tv rom-com which is how do you keep two people apart when they're the main focus of the story over eight hours repeatedly.

27:28How do you bring them together and pull them apart? It's like you do kind of run out of tricks. And the key, the thing that really worked with Ross and Rachel is that it was, it was, it was not the highest story in the mix. Yeah. Oh, you're so right. So they could, so it could fade away for a while and then come back. Exactly. And that's how we were kept wanting more. Even though, somebody pointed this out in the comment section when we did our Ross episode the other day, But like they believe the thing that kept Rachel coming back to Ross was that he was a bad boyfriend, but a great friend. And he would show up for people in a friend way and then disappoint her over and over again as a boyfriend.

28:08And I find that very interesting. That is interesting. Because also, I suppose what is so interesting about Ross and Rachel, which you don't see in other rom-coms, is like how do you recalibrate how do you recalibrate friendship when you have been so intimate with each other yeah how do you i find that really fascinating when i'm watching those series in between their romantic moments where they're just goofing around together or they're on a long road trip together or they're yeah it's the two of them getting drunk in the hotel room together yeah or meeting each other's partners or whatever and and you know that they've had like A huge amount of sex Yeah yeah Like knowing each other's Families Very intimate So when Ross List how many times Counts the shags Counts the shags Like 211 times Never related to Rossmore I so have that in me Counting the shags If I were to actually Do my true Friends personality I think it's like Yeah what's your Myers-Briggs of friends My Myers-Briggs is like I think I'm like The The sensitivity and the self-absorption and the vanity of Rachel with the sort of pettiness of Ross with and then these two are so rogue but I just really identify with them the like exhibitionism of Bonnie Wow I relate way too much Who wants to go in for a naked swim?

29:37Bonnie who just like has to every story is her showing off about how much sex she's had and how she's had it Yeah God love her And you shaved your head She's so annoying And I hate watching that episode Because I'm like She's only in two episodes I know but I'm like I think those two episodes Just basically sum up How I was in my 20s Which was just Completely unbearable I think I know The other character You're going to say The other minor side character Tell me Is it the therapist From season one Who goes out with Phoebe Yeah I related so horribly To that character I'm amazed we haven't Brought him up sooner And I know we're kind of Jumping all around the place But it's that kind of podcast you and I were texting because that is the episode I believe where we meet Joey's parents oh yeah yeah so everyone knows about Joey's sisters because they kind of come up in conversation quite a lot but Joey's parents come up far seldomly and only in one episode which is where we've forgotten that episode totally forgotten about it it was Ella who had to remind me it's such a good one it's so good and you really sort of it makes him feel very real yeah in a way that like sometimes I think particularly in those early seasons his grass bond no wait do you know what it's what it is it's that he is more sexual in the early seasons where he's just like chasing skirt around new york or whatever and then he's more stupid in the later seasons and so sometimes he feels like the most ephemeral at times in terms of like being a real human being who really is on planet earth and then when you see him like cooking with his dad it just feels just very grounded just very grounded or whatever and those two actors make can feel very grounded and um but anyway in that we'll get back to you in a second but in that same episode phoebe is going out with psychotherapist who sort of diagnoses all of the friends yeah and everyone starts thinking it's really charming and really cool and they're all sitting around hearing about themselves and by the end of it they hate that guy i hate that guy i simply love to do that in a room it's so annoying i love to just sit and meet a new person yeah ask them a million questions and then like analyze them and then just give them advice they have not asked for.

31:43It's great though. It's really good. I think. I do it a lot. And I think, um, actually to go back to your earlier point about what, what makes an actually good writer, is it reading books and watching films or is it the quality of conversation? Sometimes I do feel myself going into record mode. Do you know what I mean? Just being like, I'm just sort of sucking it all up from somebody yeah because I just find them a bit fascinating and I'm like all right I'm just gonna sort of send the evening sort of extracting and it will come across as extreme care and intensity and connection gathering material what I'm really doing is gathering and I and it's such a it's such a boring cliche about writers of like oh don't she'll use your material or whatever and I think people think what that's going to be is that like you're going to talk to somebody for an evening and then the next time they pick up one of your books there you'll be but it's much more diluted than that it's like you're just like pumping the earth for resources and eventually that oil will turn into a necklace five years from now that's such a good metaphor that is exactly what it is yeah it's and like then what happens sometimes is that like you this is so not about friends but um the is that you are so attentive in these moments that people think that it's the beginning of a great big beautiful relationship and then it's like that sex in the city meme that like call you up on a week later being like oh we should get lunch sometime and you're like who is this who is this is this I know it's yeah so yeah Phoebe's boyfriend I really really relate to that yeah and I think it's like it's also a way of just kind of controlling everything.

33:28You're kind of controlling the conversation if you're... You're guiding all the time. If you're asking people questions and then just like taking up so much space without analysing them. It means that you're kind of in control of the conversation without really revealing anything about yourself. Yeah. I really watched that episode and I was like, I've got to stop being that therapist guy. I hate that guy. But yeah, the thing is, back to your earlier point about sort of did therapy change TV writing? Which I think it probably did. And I think there actually is a Dr. Dolly Alderton in that, in the effect of therapy on popular culture.

34:03That is a quite annoying episode, isn't it? Because it's just like, yes, the character is a therapist talking about like, oh, I think at one point, one of his analyses is like, maybe you always, Ross, maybe you always knew Carol was a lesbian and maybe you were trying to protect your younger sibling from critique by sort of failing yourself kind of thing it's all quite very advanced quite spurious stuff but obviously it's the kind of thing that groups of friends initially really want to hear and then really don't want to hear anymore um it does feel like oh this is um is this them showing us the writer's room i exactly i was gonna say exactly the same thing because that is so much of uh of a writer's room it's just sitting around just basically psychoanalyzing these fake people That is it.

34:52That is it. And then you come home knackered and you talk to your spouse and you're like, really tough day there. We were really talking about like, you know, whether or not Rachel's ever been fingered by another guy before. And we thought maybe, yeah, she had. And they're like, these are fake people. These are fake people. You've invented. Yeah. Yeah, it's, I always remember when I was studying Macbeth at school I did a paper about Lady Macbeth And my teacher said to me, failed the paper and said You have to start writing about the book and stop psychoanalyzing them as if they're real people Why the hell would you do that?

35:39That's so boring It really stuck with me because I remember thinking like I was so confused by what that meant. And I was also so embarrassed that I was doing that. As I got older, I'm like, that is actually what good art should. That's what you should do. You should like anything that you really fall in love with and that you believe is real and characters you're invested in. All you do as a viewer is psychoanalyze them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And like, I think that, I think that is a far more honest way to approach a piece of work rather than like themes of, themes of war or themes. I know we love themes, obviously, but like that thing, the idea that you could sort of like boil down a piece of art into three or four keywords that you could then extrapolate because of whether or not they use what this word or the other feels to me like an artistically shallower experience than really like, this is going to sound like I'm showing off but the something me and Gav have been doing a lot in the last year is like one Saturday a month going to an art gallery and just picking a few paintings and just talking about them for a really long time and like the way I've been sort of rebranding paintings to myself has been it's just movies you can talk through do you mean and like we've just been like it's been so lovely just like standing in like learning a lot more about artists like visual artists and standing in front of a painting and like for 25 minutes being like what is going on here and like what does every single person in this painting what do they arrive to the painting with and because like the thing I think what's like that art form has finally clicked for me in the last year because I've realized that every single like millimeter on a painting was a decision and therefore the artist has thought about it for years of every single fleck of paint and therefore it's not a wasted effort for me to think about this like random blurry man in the background of a scene to think about like why he was there and what he was doing until he got there.

37:32Oh, I love that. It's been one of the best things for my marriage in the last year. I would love to do that. I would do that with anybody. Yes, of course. My thing with an art gallery is you're in the gift shop after 45 minutes. I know. Yeah, yeah. And you take one picture on your phone to remember that you went there and you remember one thing from one of the little plaques. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, I don't think that's how art should be viewed. I don't think that's how it was designed to be consumed. Movies you can talk through. Okay. I love that. Yeah. Anyway Anyway What do you think of Rachel's dad?

38:02I'm obsessed with him Me too By the way I think he's so fit We were talking about this On the last episode So we got into Rachel's dad Because he One of his best appearances Is one of the House Party episodes We just did with Alexander Haddo When he's in the nautical top Yes Yeah The bit that's going Round and round in my head Is when Ross is trying To make polite conversations I'm saying It's not a game Ross It's not a game Ross A woman died on my table today How are things in the What did she say? How are things in the cardiovascular game? It's not a game, Russ A woman died A woman died on my table today If a man said that to me at a party I would just follow him around all night He's so fair Trying to make him laugh I think that Alex described that man as being His whole presence is like somebody watching you type Just like You just forget how to do it Very fit Very fit And then Love his glasses Love his cigarettes Just all of the parents that we see Are the most lived in characters They are Every family member in the world of Friends Is just the most plausible human being For that character to have been raised by Yeah I think the two main times we see Rachel's dad Are that party that I mentioned And the one where he doesn't tip at the restaurant The one where he and Ross The episode where he and Ross just really don't get on.

39:26Yes, that one as well. And they sort of like take the piss out of Rachel and that's their... And then they finally... Yeah, yeah, exactly. And like, I think it's very telling that Rachel Green is one of these women who calls their dad daddy until they're like 40. Yeah. Tell me what you think that parenting journey was like. I think he was a completely absent dad. A bit like the American version of Walter Manteurus. By the way, I still haven't done my best impression of Friends. Go on. Which is related to Autumn Interiors She's in hiding You've humiliated her You've humiliated her She's in hiding It's so perfect He's so half-cutting it I will just WhatsApp a voice note to Catherine Every other day of She's in hiding It's come up in every episode Those London episodes I don't know because I'm recording this whole miniseries in London But it has penetrated the culture so deeply They're the best two episodes of Friends They really are They are so good And those characters are the best two characters in Friends.

40:29But I wonder if it's like, if it's a bit of a Waltham Interiors background in that I think her mother was busy spending her dad's money and was like, you know, he mentions in that party episode when he's ranting about Rachel's mum. He's like, she spent$1 ,200 on bonsai trees. And he mentions her chihuahua. And I think that she basically created like loads and loads. She didn't have a job and she created loads of expensive hobbies to keep her busy that she spent her husband's money on. The more she did that, the less respect he had for her. And I think the dad was just like desperately trying to be out of the house as much as possible.

41:09And in lieu of love, he just gave them credit cards. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, one of my favourite, I think, I don't know why I find this so telling, but when Amy shows up and Rachel's like, I've been so busy and I've had a baby. And Amy's like, I decorated dad's office. Yeah. Yeah, you can tell they're so entwined. They're on the teat. Those like, I think it's so interesting, those family dynamics where there's multiple siblings and some siblings are either financially or emotionally on the teat. who are incredibly well into their 30s and other family members aren't. And the interesting thing is, is that you would think that the presumption would be the valorizing of the independent sibling versus that, not that any sibling should be valorized or loved more or loved less, but one would think the independent sibling would have a sort of a status, some kind of a high status in the family and the siblings that are still on the teeth would aspire to be that independent sibling.

42:10but actually I think this is quite truthful what happens in Rachel's family is that the siblings that are on the teeth still yeah I can't believe how often I've said teeth the last minute is a queasy making yeah they're still fastened yeah they end up being much closer to the parental unit yeah and there's a more intimacy because they still need things from their parents and actually like I think what I've learned now kind of watching all my friends and various families I know over the years is that like you think that needing nothing from your parents is the greatest gift you can give them and actually it is the greatest act of alienation yeah when you actually because because when a parent regardless of their age feels like they are not needed anymore by a child it is basically telling them they're gonna die soon that is why my mum is never more alive than when I come home ill oh my god never more alive if I say to mum this these are the words that I will say and I know that she just like it's like it adds another 10 years to her life when I say it so I'll be like I'm feeling weak I'm feeling weak oh my god peaky or under the weather and she literally is just like the colour comes into her cheeks and she's like right well you need to catch up on your sleep while you're here you are run down you've been burning the candle at both ends I'm going to get and then she'll just be like and then I'll just var on the sofa probably watching friends and she'll just keep coming in and being like putting her hand on my forehead and be like, how's your blood sugar?

43:38Do you need a sugary tea? Because it's the only way that I ever need my mum now, basically. Yeah. Is if I go home and I'm feeling better under the weather. I remember when I was in my early 20s. And the thing is, there's still opportunities for your mum to slip into that kind of nursing role. It's so fucking toxic, but we all, we all getting something from it um but as you get older there are fewer and fewer experiences for your dad to be able to step in and do that for you unless it's with things like money which is obviously what we see in rachel green's family yeah like i remember in my early 20s i was over here but i was working for an irish newspaper and they weren't paying me my dad just waited outside that office and he just button-holed them when they came out and being like you owe my daughter 300 euros or whatever and then just he just called me I think from a payphone and was like you'll get your money the other day it was such Rachel Green's dad energy oh Rachel Green's dad my dad would do something crazy like that as well it's so crazy but I did get the money and I was grateful like a girl needs her daddy well going back to your buffed to referenced teat something that's interesting is that I've realized as I've got older it's like I personally in my close group of friends I don't know women who don't work and I don't know women who rely on a partner or parent for money most women I know I mean I know a lot of women who are the breadwinners in their family yeah I think that's quite normal in my circle in the last couple of years there There are women I've come across through other social circles who basically the culture that they've grown up in is your dad pays for your life.

45:26And then and then you get handed over into a relationship and then the man pays for your life. And what I've realised is normality. It's only weird for me because I don't know other women or shameful for me because I don't know other women who do that. If you've grown up in a family where that's what all the women do Or you look side to side And the girls you grew up with at school They all have that Then that just becomes your normality Rachel Green will be the freak At home She will not, all her friends That she grew up around And her sisters and her mum Mindy They will all, that's the normality And we finally She finally gets her payoff on that when I think it's when Jill shows up and she's in tears because actually I think Ruthless Boone's a great actress but I don't think she was a great actress then.

46:20Is that controversial? Or I don't know, but she was amazing in stuff like Election but there's, I don't know, it's just like not a great... That was very much the Legally Blonde years, wasn't it? It was like she was playing these quiet kind of... It's he, yeah. Yeah, I was surprised by how much I didn't enjoy her performance looking back on this episode. I was surprised how much I had forgotten about pashminas Watching that episode It comes up like twice But pashminas was such a massive part of our pashminas Yeah, and then it disappeared I cannot remember It's 15 years since I heard the word pashminas It is bizarre the way in which Words that we've never heard before Will just get ingested into the vocabulary Like kombucha There was a day you didn't know that word And then there was a day you did And now you'll never not know that word Jill says to Rachel Daddy said Come go visit Rachel And the only daughter I'm actually proud of Yeah Which is a horrible thing to say And obviously makes Rachel's life Yeah Good for her But he never shows that pride To her No He's like pretty horrible to her Yeah He just yells at her all the time Yeah And that is the thing In those relationships Where Once again The oft-quoted teat If a child is still dependent on you for something, in this case, financial, you can be as horrible to them as you want.

47:43But there's an understanding that there's a transaction involved. And so with his other daughters, he can be like, I'm going to yell at you for five minutes about everything I believe you to be terrible at. And then I'm going to give you three grand. Yes, exactly. And then we both understand it to be a transaction. When that transaction doesn't exist between one of your kids, it's just the yelling and there's no paying. And it really rots the relationship even more. Yeah. Yeah. And I suppose it's an interesting journey for Rachel because when she doesn't need her dad's money anymore, it's like, well, what do I need from this man now?

48:16What is the, what is our connection beyond I'm nice to you and you provide for me? Which is why when Ross, when they go out for that dinner and Dr. Green pays and then Ross leaves the tent, it's such an interesting power dynamic, right? Because like, yes, he's probably a man that has been used to the idea for a while that I'm going to raise my daughters to a certain stage and then I will hand them over to a as rich or richer man. Who works in a similar industry to me. Yeah, but the idea that like the dinosaur doctor is showing me up for not being a nice enough guy. So it's such a brilliant choice to like push on the buttons of his masculinity in just the right order.

48:59The dinosaur doctor is showing me up. Again, very good psychoanalysis. Yeah, it really is such good writing. It's a real day if Dr. Green went in and was like, why did this bother me so much? This weird little dinosaur guy made me feel cheap. Yeah. It's like everything about that generation in terms of how they would have thought about masculinity and assertion. Yeah. And then there's that moment where one of Joey's news resolutions is that he wants to learn how to sail a boat and then Rachel takes him out on her dad's boat. Oh my god. And she replicates how her dad was to her in that he's not doing anything properly.

49:37She's yelling at him. It's this whole side of Rachel we've never seen before. And it's like, she's just, you get this a lot of people Because Joey is this childlike atmosphere People sort of mistreat him They kind of take out their parental sort of shit on him Yeah Like Ross forcing him to write a screenplay It's just like That's such a good episode A handsome man enters Every time I write a script I think a handsome man enters I'd totally forgotten that Again, great psychoanalysis That's such a brilliant Because they've planted at that point that Dr. Green is this like angry, imperious. Yeah, yeah, we know him so well, even though we've only met him two or three times.

50:20And there's something about Rachel, because that, I mean, there's that episode as well with Monica when she realises that she's turning into her mother. And that is a very, very real thing about growing up. And it's every year you get older, you see more of it. I've started to do something. I'm like, shit, this is like completely, my mum does this thing when she's talking she's telling a story and she's forgotten something so she says and I saw the guy who works at the thing you know the thing with the thing and I started doing it and it's obviously just because this is what happens as you get a little bit older is that you start forgetting stuff but it used to drive me mad that that's how like her syntax of every anecdote she would use it and I'm doing it all the time now oh god it is freaky isn't it I'm having it every year I discover a new thing that I'm doing that is a total replication of my mum and my dad.

51:12And I think that it's horrible. And it's like, it's how you really understand the passage of time at those moments. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I think it's, I think it's kind of an understood trajectory when you're a woman that you start replicating stuff that your mum does. Or like you start noticing that you look a bit more like your mum. Or when you get to an age where you were a child or a teenager when your mum was the age you are now, if you know what I mean. and you're like, oh, my mum kind of wore stuff like this when I was about eight or nine. You know what I mean? And that's kind of a strange thing.

51:44But there's a noticeable pattern because that's the emblem of femininity you had in your house. So that's kind of what you're unconsciously replicating. But when you start acting like your dad, which is what happens to Rachel in that episode, it is quite frightening. What do you think of Rachel's mum? Is she only in one episode? She's only in... She's in... No, she's in the famous, like, you didn't marry your Barry, honey. I married mine Yeah When she decides That she's going to leave Dr. Green Yeah And then the kind of Follow up episode to that Is the birthday party When she's She's in Monica's apartment Playing word games And she's wearing that jacket That is the most like Rich lady Like Yeah yeah yeah New York suburbs jacket It's like that Pink Bright pink silk With the high collar Yeah It's almost like a Yes Oh my god I forgot the tie Yeah Yeah yeah Yeah, it's very like Long Island lady going to the town, going to the city for a big day.

52:42But it's like all those parents that are so well drawn, all their costumes as well, they're just so good. Yeah, the vague nautical theme on Rachel's dad. Or like Judy, who's obviously so horny. Judy always wearing metallic bodysuits. Is it always wearing like a slightly sexy suburban outfit? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That just reeks a bit of sex. That's so true. Do you want to move on to the Gellers now? We've gone chapter and verse on Rachel Green. I think in Dr. Dolly's thesis. Are you a doctor of psychology, do you think? Or a doctor of media studies in this universe? But I am a doctor. Okay, of course, of course.

53:23You're a doctor. I'm actually a doctor of letters. Okay. That's my official title. Your honorary doctorate from... Ex-university. A very, very prestigious University They were so gutted When I received that, the students Because the person the day before me was Stormzy Can you imagine how gutted you'd be If it's then this random No one had any idea who I was I almost heard them go It's a bit like when Monica stands up To do the toast instead of Ross At Judy and Jack's 35th wedding anniversary That's what they felt like when I got on stage Anyway, so Dr Dolly's analysis of this family is Monica and Ross represent what it is to come from a stable, loving family where you feel they drive you mad and your parents drive you mad and they pick on you and they're certainly flawed.

54:23But they are loyal and they are there and through your childhood feel that you have this unabiding loving unit. And what that means for both of them is I think there's quite a strong argument that even by the end of Friends, we see Ross has kind of become Jack and Monica is well on her way to becoming Judy. They both want to have children. Ross does have children from quite a young age. Monica wants children from a young age. They both have one boy, one girl. Monica ends up moving out to a suburb, probably quite similar to the suburb that she grew up in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's about, without knowing, absolutely replicating the template for childhood that you were given, because even with all its flaws, it was pretty fucking brilliant.

55:13And that's definitely the story of, that's definitely the story of my life. When I, and you only realise it as you grow up But when I look at where my mum was exactly in her life At 37 It is so, it is so similar to exactly where I am now Really? I mean, to the point, like Even to the point where the flat we're sitting in right now How far away it is from the flat I grew up in It's like everything in my life now is kind of Other than I don't have the kids my mum had then But every other thing is almost exactly the same do you find comfort in that it's so it's I mean it's it I think it's like it happens in small stages like it's I realized that I had every flat I lived in since I moved back to London is within a two mile radius of the flat that you know my Camden flat was a five minute walk from my primary school and I realized initially I was like that's a weird coincidence but it's not no it's quite intentional choices that you're that feel so natural they don't even feel like choices at all exactly yeah and then I think you get to a point with like the specifics of the partner that you're with it just it just suddenly I look around at my life I'm like this is not a coincidence and I do I think I do it's spooky a bit but I do find it comforting and I think the only depth of analysis that I choose to have in that is not I'm marrying my father or I'm the depth of analysis that I have is this felt so good growing up that I've obviously, that's just all it is.

56:46It just felt so good at home. It felt so good that I've, of course, I have unconsciously tried to recreate what felt good. Oh, that's so nice. Do you have any of that, do you think? No. No, but I, but that makes me think so much of my sister in that, like, she's the eldest of us, obviously, and they, and her house is an 11 minute walk from my family home and she got married quite young and her first big job was in the same bank where my dad got his first job you know there's like a lot of replication there and I think you're the eldest in your family she's the eldest in my family I think that she very much has acted from a like well this feels good like why wouldn't I keep doing that and I think the position of the youngest child in the family is to run as far away as you can kind of thing.

57:37Not because I had a bad time. We both had a great childhood, but I just think you are so, you resist replication in such a strident way that to the point of almost alienation, the point where you're almost like, you almost look for things to not have in common with your family because you are so, when you're growing up and you have three siblings ahead of you, and there's so much stuff that happened before you were born and all that kind of stuff, you just you are so desperate to have something for yourself and nobody else gets it to have a say on or an opinion of or has more information than you do that you run and then you hide and I am actually as a 35 year old now I'm learning to stop hiding a bit I'm learning to share a bit more with my family and let them in on my like emotional states a bit more and I actually I'm surprised by how much of a big deal that feels for me sometimes you know because I just feel like when you're in that position of smallest one all of your like all of your little secrets and all of your little you know dollies or everything they're so everything that's just yours feels hard one even to the point where when like my my brothers are both really close with my husband with Gav and I I have to stop myself from having these spikes of like no you're taking the thing that's I only have one thing and it's Gav and if you take him then I'll have nothing like I think this like scarcity mindset that comes from just being feeling quite overcrowded you know yeah and none of this is a judgment on any of my siblings or my parents I just think it's about birth order I think it's so interesting you know and birth order you know there's obviously that meme that's so popular at the moment of like are you okay or are you the eldest daughter right right same studies on that eldest daughter thing but I think there is something like when I hear about your childhood and the fact that you have three elder siblings and then there were your parents that there were five people who were, who could always talk about you.

59:28Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And five people who had witnessed patterns before. It's like, oh, well, Jill went to that school and Rob went to that tennis club or whatever. You know, there's always something that somebody's done already. Yeah. And I think the need to feel, as you said, to feel like you have an independence and you have something that defines you away from this family of people who've already trodden yeah these paths yeah yeah well I could see why why that would feel that would be such a strong force within yeah yeah and again a choice so strong it doesn't so strong and so natural doesn't feel like a choice at all yeah just feels like something that has happened because that's how life's turned out you know but actually everything is a sort of a cheap psychological choice born from somewhere Freudian therapy Well You know I also think as well That I know you've already done An episode on this About With a Ross apologist With Imogen But I think There's so much Of Ross's Like More patriarchal Paternalistic qualities That when you dig A bit deeper You can see Is A part of growing up In An unbelievably Traditional household And you can see why him being left for a woman yeah was is such a it feels like such a failure to him him getting divorced feels like such a failure monica feeling like a spinster because she's like single at 30 yeah it was like such a huge failure for her not being a mother in her 20s is such a huge failure it's because every time that we have any kind of insight on judy and jack they're like you know asking Ross and Rachel to pretend they're married because they don't believe in babies out of wedlock.

1:01:15It's like, of course that's produced a man with like a slightly fucky value system about when it comes to gender and marriage. Yeah. I think the truth of that Philip Larkin poem what's it called again? The one they fuck you up, your mum and dad, they don't mean to, but they do. What's that? I can't remember what it's called. This be the verse? This be the verse. This be the verse. You know why I know that? What? Because there was a piece in the paper a few years ago about how apparently Philip Larkin had this enormous dick. I've told you about this. No! I think I've told you about this before.

1:01:50And that's like, that like informed so, it was so big, his dick, that he like, it like ruined his sex life and ruined his romantic life. And it kind of informed so much of his poetry. And the title of the piece was This Be the Curse. Oh. I was so interested in knowing about the penises of history. Like, why am I so fascinated by this Hitler micro-penis thing? We'll have to talk about this after we switch the lights off. The penises of history. In This Be the Verse, they fuck you up, your mum and dad, they don't mean to, but they do. I think that is a great sort of like case study for the Jack and Judy Gellar of it all because as you say a comfortable wonderful home where they love their children they love their children so much that their children's friends come over for Thanksgiving every year this is one of those homes that everyone wishes they could recreate in real life which is that like the kind of place where waifs and strays feel comfortable during holidays like that surely that's the fantasy and the parents love each other and doesn't matter because Monica and Ross are still fucked up to be unbelievable people are just fucked up in different ways even from the most beautiful parenting one can imagine my friend peach said once to another friend of mine which i think about all the time she said to our mutual friend i don't know why dolly is so fucked up about men her dad's so nice because peach whenever she sees my dad they both love cricket they're rich he's really polite, welcomes her in, gets her a drink they stand and they talk about the ashes she's just like what did this guy ever do to make you go for all these horrendous blokes but you know what, it still happens it still happens, because it's not like yeah, it's not parenting is not a pass-fail sort of exam, it is this thing that you do every day for years and some days you are very bad at it and the days in which the Gellers are very bad at it are obviously Judy and her relationship with Monica.

1:03:53And again, the reason why Friends has been so timeless and is rewatched constantly is because people do see their family dynamics in it. So yes, are we talking about the inner turmoil of made up people? Sure. But are there Judy and Monica Gellers all over the world having like terse arguments about lasagnas and nails in kitchens all over the world? Yeah. And I think the way in which that pain is rendered I find very hard to watch actually don't you? I think the Judy-Monica relationship is one of the most complicated even though this kind of wall of love and loyalty you know would have come from the Gellers to their kids you know that those parents would have gone to every play and every match and also they're the kind of kids who I mean the routine the dance routine that Monica and Ross have you only have that kind of relationship with your brother where you're creating these insane dancing dances if your parents love the pants off you.

1:04:49Do you know what I mean? If they're just like applauding, if you're coming out from behind the curtain every night with a big routine and they're clapping and like, you don't have that unless you were parented really well. You know? And yet you see with Judy, with how she interacts with Monica, that there is something of Judy's relationship to herself or to her own like younger self or how she speaks about herself, that somehow even with all the will and love in the world does cloud her relationship and interactions with monica with a level of toxicity and i know so many women who have that relationship with their mom where it's like it's so loving and it's so reliable that it is it's hypercritical or it's, you know, the issues that their mum had with their own mother, it's then replicated again with that, you know, like particularly with all the weight stuff.

1:05:49Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just so, I've just seen that with women over and over again, that relationship with their mum. And it's just all about the mum's own stuff. I had a real come to Jesus moment about this with the Diane Keaton episode that we did when me and Fiona Zublin read Diane Keaton's memoirs. And one of them is called, let's just say it wasn't pretty, where it's just Diane Keaton doing essays about essentially how she feels about her looks, essentially. I would not recommend it. It's not a depressing read because it makes you realise that the Diane Keaton that you thought you knew, which is that like, oh, she like wears amazing hats and like great suits and she didn't give a fuck what everybody thought.

1:06:30It's like, oh, she wore scarves every day of her life because she was insecure about her neck. Yeah. She wore hats every day of her life because she was insecure about her thinning hair. And like basically, oh, all... She had a debilitating eating disorder. Yeah, exactly. And all of it came from absolute brain eating sort of insecurity. Yeah. And how much you just don't want to hear that. Like, especially as you're going into your late 30s and you're thinking about aging in a way that you never thought about it before. Yeah. It is such a massive bummer. But like the thing that Fiona said to me, she was like, this book helped me understand my mum so much better because of all the critical things that her mom might have said to her over the years.

1:07:06It made her far more appreciative of the things that she's thinking and not saying that are all about herself. And like how it is hard to break those women out of this routine of thinking of like a woman, sort of her value is dependent on how well she decorates a room. And she wants her daughter to be as valuable as possible. so she wants to be this kind of boot camp, this kind of shrunken down version of the cruelest male eye that you look at with your own self. You know that Margaret Atwood line about the man who lives in your head who watches you? Yeah. That's how this woman looks at her daughter with the man inside her head.

1:07:43Yeah. And that man is the cruelest man who never lived, you know? Yeah. It's so awful. That's so true. It's, it's, um, it's, it's like, it's so fleshed out, that relationship. Mm. And also going back to their, like, their traditionalism, the fact that they're so obsessed with Ross because he's... The miracle baby. I thought she was barren. He's the miracle baby. And also, he's the boy. Yeah. Yeah. It's how simple. He's the boy. And any person who's been in a multiple gender sibling family knows the boy always wins. And my brother would contest that. but it's like I love my parents so much and I had a wonderful childhood but I if you put certain certain stories side by side of my brother and I of what happened the first time I got drunk what happened the first time I then got drunk with me it was like they they nearly sent me to like a facility and with Ben it became like the most charming and funny story our family had ever the The fact that my dad had to hire a powered steam cleaner to clean Ben's vomit out of the grouting of our driveway when he was 15 is hilarious.

1:09:05But apparently, like, me drinking too much to man or five, leaving the door open and a tray of crisps up the stairs is, like, enough for them to put me into rehab. Or, like, how Ben's girlfriend was, like, allowed to stay over the first time. Oh, God. That first time that happened to me Gave me a conniption When the girlfriend's allowed to stay over I'm still talking about it with my mum now I spent so much money And you're the oldest one as well My boyfriend had to wait Two years Before he was grabbed an access to my bedroom Ben brings a girlfriend home First night she was allowed to stay in this room Crazy But that's just how it is in families I don't know what the fuck it is But that's like you see that in the Ross and Monica dynamic so much.

1:09:53And it is maddening. It is maddening. You feel for her so much. And as I said in this podcast before, Monica is my least favourite friend. I find her the hardest to watch. I think the shrillness and the mania for me is just, it's not fun for me to watch. No, and I don't really relate to it. No, yeah, exactly. There's kind of very little of me in her. And like, I can kind of relate to almost every other friend apart from her. Yeah. I know many others do but that's just where I come down but in terms of like the small victories that Monica has over her mum it's like she loses the fingernail in the quiches and there's this mental scene where she's catering it's like when her and Phoebe are catering together and she's catering a party at Judy's house or whatever for her bridge ladies or whatever and Judy comes in and Monica says mom why did you hire me and Judy says well I heard the dinner at Richard's thing was lovely but you were sleeping with him and then I heard that lesbian wedding was fabulous and you couldn't have been sleeping with them so I heard you were quite good and then she left and then Phoebe turns to Monica and said no Monica turns to Phoebe and says did you hear that and phoebe was like yeah and monica goes she hired me because she thinks i'm good and phoebe goes i did not hear that and it's that thing when like when like a third party witnesses that level of like familial dysfunction and is like how did you just take a compliment out of what just happened yeah yeah it's actually heartbreaking it's so heartbreaking and then yeah monica loses one of false fingernails inside of the quiche which I do think is irresponsible to wear false fingernails while catering that'd be a hard line for me I'm with Judy on that one and they say we bought some frozen lasagnas because we thought you might pull a monica so horrible and it's you know also that's part of as well is that like people who have like the narrative of who they are within their families is really strong like um Gav has this where for so long the whole thing in his childhood was that he was really late and really disorganized and because of that he has made like huge sort of he's the most organized person I know because he knows he's got that natural sort of thing and so like he's got filing systems for sort of every bill we've ever received or whatever but that narrative still exists about him within his like core friend group from home and he finds it so upsetting that like he's he's done all this work for nobody to revise their opinion of him and that's the same thing with Monica it's like we know that Monica is obsessed with doing things perfectly.

1:12:35But it's like, oh, the reason that she's that way is because everyone thought she was this kind of like loopy klutz. Yeah. You know? Totally. Really hard. It's a really sad story. So sad. Pull the moniker. The person who's been a part of the family has one of those moniker. And it drives you crazy. Yeah. Because you could never outlive them. No. Or run from them or anything. What do you think of Jack? Fit. He's so someone you would fancy He's so Elliot Gould but particularly Jack Gellert He's so someone I can see you at a party Like coming over to me and breathily Telling me how fit he is I just love flirting with a friend's dad It's my most toxic trait I just love how horny him and Judy are I know That's such a big part of it Their sex tape as well The sex tape and the line that obviously was totally lost on me when I was a child but I now love is when they turn up late to the rehearsal dinner of Ross and Emily's wedding and she's like oh sorry we're late I was riding the tube oh yeah Judy and she's like that's what they call the train here I love it and I also think it does like if you grow up in a household where like a marriage is very alive which is again a privilege the household it is a privilege you don't realize the privilege until you like realize that you have friends who have uh like never seen their parents kiss yeah yeah yeah then you realize it's a massive privilege totally and that's that's my parents were like that and it means that you have these like high standards for what you think marriage should be i've seen that a marriage can i mean they're in my their 80s and their 70s now my mum and dad and they're still pinching each other's arses and slow dancing when Frank Sinatra comes on and flirting so I just wasn't willing to accept anything other than that and that's what you can see Monica has in that relationship with Shonda and that's why I think she's like she's so she's so white-osexual Monica you've said this before that apparently the creators thought of Joey and Monica as the most sexual characters I do not find Monica sexual It is not sexual I feel like there are All these hints About how A horny Monica is Like you definitely think Is she like more horny Than Rachel or Phoebe She definitely talks about it More I think Oh I mean There's the There's the sex advice She gives to Chandler Like seven Seven Seven A one A two A one two three That's so good That episode But there's also like You definitely know That she Is demanding more sex than Chandler in that marriage.

1:15:26Oh, you think? Definitely. There's that really weird episode where she gets really ill and she's like a flu or whatever and she doesn't want to admit that she's ill so she tries to force Chandler to fuck her. Yeah, and she robs Vix all over her channel. Yes. Yeah, maybe she is more nearer than the rest of them, actually. I hadn't really thought about before stacking it up. Joey sees that Chandler's had sex by his hair and he's like, you get on top for once. You see Monica is like constantly hopping on top of Chandler. Do you think Monica's eating disorder ever goes away? Do you think it's like the underpinning of the whole character?

1:16:03One of the episodes about how her food how now that I really think about it I do, I think that again, their great psycho you know, the way they build these characters psychologically I think it's so telling that she needs a chef and actually it's something that a doctor once said to me is that anorexics are often foodies because they're thinking about all the time obsessed with food yeah yeah um and if there's a way that you can you can you can as you heal and go into recovery i was advised if there is a way that you can channel a kind of obsession or interest or thought in food in a way that is you know creative or nutritional yeah yeah yeah rather than you know it's about scarcity about scarcity of deprivation that has to be a choice that this was a girl who's like main trauma when she was growing up was yeah as power as to food and now her life is how she makes her money is being in control of food i i always wonder this especially when we did the episode um on phoebe about when these writers are sitting around doing as you and I have done in writers rooms which is like spending nine hours talking about this incredible complicated like making up complicated psychologies and backstories for people who don't exist because it's such a 23 minute episodes where there is a joke every other sentence you know there's never not a joke it's always things everything has to earn its place everything is building to something whether it's a laugh or a gasp or whatever yeah when they're sitting around talking about phoebe's mom having killed herself yeah or monica being bullied for her weight are they doing it smiling or are they do or are they doing sitting there i mean marla kaufman and david crane being like the hands on their chest being like the thing about monica is like this is like really important because the way the show treats her eating and treats her weight is so cruel yeah and i think Like one of the things that dates More than the gay panic stuff I think it dates even worse Is the way people are so cruel to her Over her weight Yeah And she's cruel to her sounds I wonder were they writing it With love in their heart If you know what I mean Like were they writing it With a quick sense of like The thing about Monica Is she has these control issues She's a chef for these things Or are we You know Is there more I don't know Are we seeing more there than there is You know Are we bringing profound empathy For a creative decision that didn't have that much empathy behind it.

1:18:40I think it's probably a mixture of both. I think, you know, anyone who is in an intimate group of friends knows that in true, real, loving, long-lasting friendship, what is your biggest trauma becomes one of the biggest things in the group. Yeah, you're right. You have to. It's the only way you survive. It's such intimacy in love that, you know, me having a former eating disorder is often like a massive punchline when we're talking about what I'm cooking or what we're going to eat or it's the only way that you can deal with the pain of it and it's the only way that you can um well you know my friend who's got a dead dad like that yeah yeah yeah we'll do his joke about her yeah yeah actually a dead dad and it's like hard one that kind of and it's yes about survival it's about processing and it's about levity and it's about love so i think there's a world in which they've created these characters understood and empathized with all these traumas and then like they like the these characters become their friends that they've known for many years and then they become our friends who we've known for years so we do feel like we can laugh about these pain you know the mum who killed herself the dad who left the family to go be in a drag act in vegas to Monica and having been a formerly overweight person.

1:20:04But I also do think that there are these punchlines in comedy that have only changed very, very recently of what the funniest thing in the world is. What was the funniest thing in the world when we were growing up? A man in a dress, an overweight person, someone with a foreign accent. Those were just the things that we were told... A monkey in a tiny waistcoat. were things that were really funny and it's only been like yeah recently that we've dug into like like what kind of like what is the knock-on effect of those jokes like why do we find them funny are they funny at all so i do think it's probably about i think it's like a product of the cruelty of comedy of its time and also a familiarity with these characters over years and years and years that means that we earn the right to joke about their darkest, saddest things.

1:20:58A very good answer. They don't call me Dr. Doctor. I was re-watching some episodes with Ella the other day and we sort of did realise that like, because they are always on about how neurotic Chandler is and what a pain in the fucking arse he is to deal with and therefore, because he's a pain in the arse and because he's the character who's obsessed with making things funny and obsessed with getting a laugh, his trauma is the most often joked about because he almost gets there first with all the jokes but actually when you really lay it out it is quite upsetting Well I think what's more upsetting about Chanda than the dad who runs away with Mr Garibaldi is the romantic novelist Mark Yeah who sold 100 million copies of her book She's one of the most successful novelists of all time, according to friends.

1:21:53But I feel like she's so overlooked in the psychological context of Chandler Bing. There's such an obsession with Chandler's dad, as she's always called. That's got to do something to a young man. Having such a hyper-sexualised, famous mum who goes on Leno. And that never comes up. It comes up in the early seasons a bit. And the, obviously, you know quote unquote Chandler's dad comes up a lot because as you said in the funniest thing in the world in the 90s was a man in a dress but if you really think about like what is the bigger trauma starts with complete negligence because there is a the episode where the one where Chandler can't cry is the whole thing about how they find a photograph of parents evening at Chandler's school and the janitor or something stands in for the picture because neither one of Chandler's parents wanted to be there.

1:22:51It's a lot more about negligence and wealth than it is about having a trans parent. And like the way I sort of picture it, because they have these flashbacks to his like family Christmases, which is one of the few flashbacks you ever get. I think you've forgotten about this. Where you see one of the friends as a child actor. It's very rare. Yeah. And it's like them on this big, long, horrible table and like the mum on one end and the dad on the other and then the pool boy sort of making weird eyes and it's just like oh like this is obviously funny in the context of this but like this is really sad when you think about it yeah and then he literally can't stomach Thanksgiving food like he has the thing we forget about Chandler is like he has an eating disorder and he also married a woman with an eating disorder and they're just two eating disorders together also I just realised Chandler must come from obscene wealth He pays for Joey's whole life The first few years Like he's a trust fund baby He's a trust fund baby Yeah Yeah He wears maybe those sweater vests Is that what that Also he's weirdly coded Californian Do you remember Like the whole thing about the pool boy And the sort of Danielle Steele Jackie Collins mother And the like The gay dad Like all that gay and then trans Or whatever Like it feels very Californian Even though they code him as being Sort of from Long Island Or I don't know It's very strange yeah Yeah, he's very like, he comes from a hyper glam, hyper celebby, probably quite preppy.

1:24:22Yeah. Like he probably went to like a private school. And he didn't touch a titch he was 19. Yeah, it's so interesting. Like when you intersect what that would be, who the character would be with the class system of England, that would be like a Newtonian. You know, he's got that like corporate job. Yeah. If you put him in England, that would be a repressed Etonian. Yeah. With absent parents who was raised by nannies, who can't emotionally connect with women. Yeah. And who works in the city. Yeah. Quite a recognisable character in that way. Yeah. And then so it's kind of weird that he's ended up in this sort of like loving codependent sort of group of friends from sort of a mixed class background.

1:25:09Yeah, because it's through Ross is his entry point to the group. Yeah, yeah. it's like I think we'll talk about this more in Emma's episode but like the thing of like he has been his kind of introduction to all of them is him being brought home for that Thanksgiving and he's so rude he's like he like Judy comes up to him and is like oh I hope you're hungry and he's like no I don't need Thanksgiving food and he's just so like completely raised by wolves no idea how to relate to these people is insulting to everyone the big the Gellers hate him because he just sucks. Yeah. He doesn't need Thanksgiving food and he sucks and is rude.

1:25:43Yeah. Calls Monica fat in like a really mean way. Not in the joke way that the show approves of but in the mean way that is mean. Yeah. And that is like a character who's learned to be nice through the Gellers. Yeah. The Gellers kind of treat him. They sort of tame him. Teach him how to have family and then he marries one of them. He's like a Brady Sinella's character. He's like something from Less Than Zero. He's like should be on cocaine which is really sad when you think about when actually the fate of Matthew Perry is sort of like, imagine a poor little rich boy who never meets a Geller and he just spirals down further and further into the trail of addiction.

1:26:20Like, it's a very dark thing to bring up, but like, that's the kind of the two sides of Chandler is the real life of Matthew Perry, you know? There is definitely like, maybe even more than Phoebe, like a true darkness in Chandler, I think. Yeah. And because they talk about it so often, you kind of forget when you're like, oh yeah that is bad that is a harem yeah and I think you see it play out over and over again before he meets Monica and how dysfunctional he is in his romantic relationship yeah it's like the story of this guy is like what happens when it's like you are you are so damaged in your younger life by the template of family that you're given that you are just completely unable to form romantic attachment yeah And unable to have arguments with people Unable to emote in any way that isn't a one-liner Unable to Unable to have sex sometimes It seems like he's really weird about sex Unable to commit Unable to Kind of approach women full stop Yeah Yeah yeah yeah And there's that other thing of everyone thinks he's gay Which that comes up a lot In the thing of like oh we all thought he was gay Kind of thing which also Look, there's never made sense to me because he does not scan as gay at all.

1:27:38He scans as incredibly repressed heterosexual men. Maybe it's because it's just, yeah, he's bad with women. Yeah. And he's... Yeah, it's like, this is what happens when someone is not shown any kind of healthy way of how men and women connect. Yeah. Trudging. Really quite tragic. But do you know what makes me cry every time? What? When he surprises his dad in Vegas. Oh, really? It's so moving I just love that actress so much Kathleen Turner I just love her She is brilliant She shouldn't have been cast in that part Yeah I fucking love her I saw her play Martha in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf And I was like Oh That's amazing It was incredible What a get that casting was Huge It's so I get so torn about it because it's so she is brilliant like she is obviously brilliant but it is meant it is not an insult to play a trans woman but it is meant as an insult to Kathleen Turner because she was this obviously incredible bombshell of the 80s and then she sort of put on where she had medical problems and I think there was a lot of very cruel tabloids around about her at the time about like you know Kathleen Turner unrecognisable kind of thing and then to cast her in this kind of very, very quite mean comedy role and the kind of, the inference is, look what's happened to Kathleen Turner, you might think she was a man now but then, it's really complicated because it's so trans folk but it's also so misogynist but then also, as you say, she plays it with aplomb, like she does she's brilliant that would have been her way of getting the last laugh, it was knowing we should have done is cast her as Charla's mum because she would have been a brilliant romance novelist yeah I kind of forget about that episode in Vegas talk me through it again Monica and Charla get engaged and Monica says family's really important to me I really want to meet your dad and I want your dad to come to the wedding have you invited your dad and Charla says no we haven't spoken in a long time I don't want him there and then they go to Vegas

1:30:03to Chandler's dad's show and with the plan of asking him to come to the wedding. And Chandler gets cold feet and he says, I actually haven't told you this, but my dad's tried to reach out to me a lot in the city. When he's in the city to, I'm going to call him him because that's what they refer to him in there. in the show in a very weird way and then Chandler stands to leave because he finds it all too difficult and too much to process and also I suppose you have to remember like that would have during if you think that he would have been growing up in the 70s if he's 25 in 1995 he would have been growing up in the 80s 80s yeah late 70s early 80s It's a hugely, hugely, hugely cataphobic time.

1:31:03And that's like, you can see that this is someone that's like, still really like hasn't ever had a proper conversation with anyone about this or who says any of this. So he's like, finds it too hard, stands up to leave. His dad says, in this kind of flirty way, stands to turn around, darling, let me see your face. Chana turns around and then just Kathleen Turner's face is just heartbreaking. Yeah, I do. Oh, God. It's so beautiful. Yeah. And then they have this, like, back and forth patter where Kathleen Turner's doing it so well, that kind of showgirl patter with an audience member, but obviously she knows that it's her son.

1:31:45And then he invites her to the wedding. And you can see how moved she is. It's really beautiful. It actually is. I should have rewatched it for this episode and I didn't I would say love to go back to the best two episodes of all time I love Chalmers mum and Chalmers dad coming together for the wedding oh sorry that actually wasn't let me do that again going back to the worst wedding of all time on Friends one of the highlights is Chalmers mum and Chalmers dad coming together oh yeah yeah yeah they are great together they're so good they're so bitchy delicious is leave it to be. So that's all I've got to say about the big side.

1:32:32Yeah. It's interesting how the jokes are relentless with that family, but the actual material we're given to work with is quite thin. There's not a lot of information there, I don't think. They don't come into the orbit that often. Yeah. And then finally, no, not finally, we haven't done Phoebe. Go on, enjoy your, the buffets or the Tribbianis first? Let's do the Tribbianis first. because the buffets are so complicated let's end up yeah yeah the tribunals i think that the the story that we're being offered here of like a family story is what it is to come from a gang of people who a huge family who know who they are there's a culture within their family that's very kind of specific to them um and they have a lot of fun together and they love each other and they're hugely loyal to each other and how that gives a person like Joey a confidence in the world and absolutely know who he is and what he's about and not really need to romantically attach like other people do because he's got these million relatives down the road who love and adore him who he sees all the time yeah yeah he doesn't have this desperate need to form a unit beyond that I love the private life of Joey Tribbiani I love that like when Chandler goes and knocks on the door of Joey's grandma's house because he wants to figure out which sister he got off with and Joey's just there because his Nana is doing his laundry yeah it's just like oh yeah Joey it's a bit like oh yeah Ross is going off to privately you know Father Ben when we don't see him we only see the friends when they're together really and meanwhile Joey's just been going off to his Nana's house get his laundry done it's so sweet do you recognize anything of your kind of the big family characteristic that you talk about so well of what it is to come from a big family and have that big family identity I think so much of it is not so much big family I think there aren't that many references to being dragged up in a big family within Joey's whole schema but I do think that there's a lot of being the only boy of many sisters I think is a fascinating dynamic because I think you are you are the little prince inside like I my um a friend of mine Lee he's got um three daughters and a little boy at the end and it's like so exciting to watch a little Joey Tribbiani come into the world because he's this beautiful little boy he's only two now and the all of his sisters they just want to like take turns holding him and take turns dressing him up and take turn you know being like he's like a living baby doll to them I think I find that such a gorgeous energy and like I just never I've never known a man with a load of sisters who I didn't adore you know yeah me neither actually and it's just like I think it makes it work so much better the Joey storyline that like I remember listening to a very clever interview with Joey with that brother Matt LeBlanc saying he was afraid that he was going to be written out of the show early Doris because he thought that his character was the thinnest written and that what was going to happen was that they would write a storyline where he shagged one of the girls and then he would get written out because that would sort of like the the possibilities would have come to their natural conclusion and so he sort of pitched early on the joke is this guy shags every woman in New York City except these three girls because they're his sisters yeah I think that's so nice and like also just really clever as an actor to like you would think as an actor what you would want is the big romance scenes because that makes you the center of attention but like to be like no no no I'll come to the end of the road possibilities wise and to be like no these are my these are my girls what do you think about the the Phoebe Joey I love it it's my favourite relationship in the show what do you think about that alternative friends world where they got together oh yeah because I remember that being such a frustration of mine when I was a teenager that you wanted them to get together yeah I really did and the fact that he has this sexual obsession with Ursula I think is very interesting because he dates Ursula very briefly and then Ursula breaks his heart and there's this beautiful moment where he gives Ursula a cardigan for her birthday and then Ursula doesn't like it so she re-gives it to Phoebe Phoebe's wearing it he thinks he's having a conversation it's such a sitcom of course you would know but like he thinks he's having a conversation with Ursula he's really having it with Phoebe and then she lets him down gently because Ursula's totally broken his heart and she just lets him down gently and then they kiss and it's this beautiful kiss one of like two kisses they've had and then he realises that it's Phoebe and there's this like kind of moment it's really well done and it's only season one I think yeah it's really early it's so tender it's so tender you really feel for them and like she's so the way she's so heartbroken that Ursula has taken everything from her and now she's gonna take Joey as well I find like oh I find their relationship so moving because the whole thing of like as I'm sure we're about to talk about Phoebe's whole story is about trying to like fill in the gaps of this life where she's had to bring herself up and the way in which she's cobbled together family like Joey is such a huge centrepiece of it I find it so moving I'm very emotional now it's come out of nowhere I find it new I was I was reminded of how moving it is at Phoebe's wedding that whole story when I listen to you and Kate talking about yeah you know Joey giving her away I don't know why I so wanted I suppose you just want the symmetry Of all three of them Yeah, yeah Coupled up Do you know what I realised When I was watching last night?

1:38:29What? Paul Rudd is not that good in this Like, Paul Rudd is good And we all think we love Mike But when I was actually watching him back I was like Oh, I think I thought I liked Paul Rudd More than I think I do I think she should have ended up with Mike You think she should have ended up with David? The geeky The bug guy Yeah yeah Interesting Because when I was talking To Alex last week I was sure I loved Paul Rudd Now I'm sure I prefer David I always thought She should have ended up With David Do you know who I liked? Who? The cop who shot a bird He's so you I know your type So well Which is so weird Because you've been With the same man For a hundred years But it's not type It's types I just know Elliot Gould Is a very different type To the cop who shot a bird It's types Yeah If you had asked me To pick out I really fancied One of their boyfriends Yeah yeah It was the guy Who shot the bird

1:39:26Because my favourite Type of man Is a man's man Who's also Just a member Of the Muppets At the same time Do you know what I mean It's like It's time to Light the music It's time to Make the music It's time to light the lights It's time for the Muppet show Tonight With a big old Working class man Do you know what I mean It's so nice That you live with one it's so nice i'm so pleased to be i don't know if it was always my dream or the dream i've manufactured the dream through it's like something i always think about that um during that book tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow there's a bit where one of the characters mark buys a house and in the garden there's a peach tree and he's like or something there's a persimmon tree or something he was like wow i can't believe i bought a house and it has my favorite fruit on in the garden and then the kind of narrator sadie says she knew that he was the kind of person that whatever fruit was Growing out there It would have been His favourite fruit And he wouldn't be able To believe his luck And like that is just The kind of energy I always want to be around You know I'm not saying The guy who shoots The bird is like that But he kind of Has that about him So on that On that tree Would you have Wanted to go out With the boyfriend That Phoebe has Played by Alec Baldwin Who Touched the plate Dispenser on the buffet And says What a marvel Of modern machineries He's so good That character I completely forgot He wore a hat at some point as well He wore his insane hat Alec Baldwin was so good Why did he go so weird?

1:40:53Just watching that I was just reminded What a sparkling comic talent he was He's so funny I mean 30 Rock He's unbelievable He is the funniest man alive He is He's so funny The twinkle and the mischief that he had I think Alec Baldwin did Girlboss Too Close to the Sun I think he really thought he was going to be a senator Do you know what I mean And he wants to be like He wanted to be a political guy And he wanted to be He's dead He's not dead He also wanted to be Remember that podcast he had Here's the thing With Alec Baldwin I interviewed him about it Did you? Yeah for a BBC programme About podcasts What did he say?

1:41:31I did it down the line And I was just shaking I think I was in my 20s When I did it I was just shaking with nerves That voice down the line Would have done me in But you know what I mean I mean I love that podcast too but I think his whole vibe was like I've been to the Algonquin round people it was like there's something very Becky Sharp about Alec Baldwin isn't there he wants to sort of prove he can be in the class above at all times yeah he tried to really brown nose Julie Andrews and she wasn't having anything she wasn't having it well circle that Kathleen Turner interview on here's the thing on here's the thing I don't even remember he was like he was like oh you know when I first came to Hollywood I worked with you and I probably didn't behave very well and she goes honey you are a schmuck oh my god i'm gonna listen to that in the book oh guys oh so you know your thing is the is the muppet show yeah big a big old man who wants to be on the muppet show mine is it's the camp dom thing so mine is like a camp dominant my mine is a camp dominant with a face like a disney creature captain von trapp yeah exactly yeah it's captain von trapp or nothing for me.

1:42:41Did you see that montage that I posted on Instagram yesterday? No. Some account keeps targeting me on my algo and it's so good. It's just the same montage every time of Captain Von Trapp twinkling and winking. But this time the montage was set with Wood by Taylor Swift. I'm really glad that I have you on the podcast talk about Wood by Taylor Swift. Can we pause the friends discussion for a minute? I'm so sick of everyone's fucking back chat about that song. so sick of their backchat it's her Candy it's a phenomenal pop song yeah it's incredible it's going to be in my spot final labs absolutely yeah yeah and the reason why it's so good is the same reason why Candy by Robbie Williams is so good is that it sounds like the most annoying children's nursery rhyme ever exactly while also being a perfect glistening bop yeah it's exactly that do you know what people don't like her talking about opening her thighs but do you know what wise up it happens she's fucking opening her thighs on the daily for that man.

1:43:40If you've got a problem with it, you shouldn't be listening to her music. I think there's a problem with her. They don't like her saying thighs. They don't like her saying thighs. They don't like her saying that she gets wet from Charlie XCX. Yeah. They don't like when she's too explicitly sexual. Yeah, yeah. It has to be sort of like, sort of raindrops falling down her back on the shower and sort of, it has to be whispering sighs. It cannot be thighs. Is it cringe? Yeah Yeah But I don't mind that No I like it I like it It's a good song I think it is way more cringe To be talking about like I don't know Euphemistically talking about Pillows and sheets Than it is to be like I am getting rammed I am getting run through Every day By this huge man My favourite thing you said On that podcast You did with Jen Yeah You're talking about How Word is obviously about How reliable this man is and how sturdy this man is both emotionally but sexually and physically as well good for you bitch that's how I feel every time I listen to it good for you bitch good for you bitch because you know what you've been with some flaky ass men yeah who stay up all night taking cocaine and talking shit talking shit who cannot fuck you but also won't commit to you I think she spent years of her life Thinking she was probably Too clever to get laid Yeah Yeah Isn't that sad?

1:45:12Yeah And now she is getting laid Good for you bitch Good for you bitch Anyway The buffets No the tribunals Because I want to know About that thing The fan fiction Of Joey's mum and Mr Big Because I can't stop Thinking about it Yes So So in that Season one episode Where Joey's dad Is staying with him And he's a delight And one thing I love about Joey's dad Is that everyone seems to have a pre-existing relationship with him It's never like With many of the other Family members that come Here's my sister Jill Jill you know Monica Or whatever With Mr. Shibiyami He says oh hello dear to everybody He's like so in with everyone And he's the only parent who sits on the couch Oh yeah He's right in It really furnishes my whole ethos of him He's like, yeah, his family live in Queens And his dad is every now and then He's in the city for a construction job And he might like meet Ross for a scone in the museum And fuck off I just feel like he has private coffees With all of them whenever he's in town I just remember, doesn't he get Rachel a job?

1:46:21Does he? Doesn't Jerry say, oh my dad knows this guy Who owns a shop Is that when she has the job separating hangers? Yeah, but it would so make sense That the army would like read the room wrong and get her the wrong job that tries to be so helpful. Yeah. He's so nice. He's got like a Danny DeVito sort of energy for him. And we see him in the shower and he like stays with the lads. There's something very recognisable about him when I've like, you know, certain, certain friends just do weirdly have their parents in the sphere. Like Alex Haddo was one of those. Her dad, Jeff, will just sort of see him at one of her comedy shows or whatever.

1:46:56He'll just sort of pop up. I love people who are so comfortable with their parents that like, when I have a parent visiting, it's like, my parents are coming for three days here are the activities i'll be doing with them but other people have these energies with these parents where they just kind of weave them in yeah it's like bizarre to me and they can really mix it and it's so nice because when you don't meet as children you don't spend much time no with your friend's parents and as we've said over and over again in this podcast the thing i'm always just so interested when i meet someone in adulthood was like what was your family home like what were your parents like yeah it is one of the defining context that creates who we are and it's so weird that we can become best friends yeah with adults like you've never met my mum and dad no no and why would you i'll only probably meet them if you're the wedding yeah it also just reminded me when i broke up with my ex-boyfriend i had to go live at home with my parents for about six months my flat was being done up i was newly broken up with i was writing a book about heartbreak it was like a pretty low time for me and actually maybe during that time do you know what saved me i watched french and start to finish yeah it absolutely saved me every night i watched an episode and i remember my dad and i going for a drive and he said he wanted to give me some life advice and he said that i know that you know you've gone for this guy this like younger handsome fun guy but i just want to tell you that i've never seen you i know you quite well and i've never seen you ending up with someone like that there's someone like really specific who i can see that you would end up with i was like who's that danny devito

1:48:41to this day it was the weirdest conversation i've ever had with my dad what does he mean he means literally someone like danny devito just a small middle-aged man a small not attractive of lake man who no one is saying like oh wow she's done well to get him but she but he said but boy does he have a big personality meaning just sort of loud and obnoxious i think i did not think that was the sentence would finish he positioned it but it was like real pearl of wisdom he was giving me that i would think of like went beyond the grave of my father just like I would remember this beautiful piece of advice about life.

1:49:25And it was basically, I think you should go out with someone like Danny DeVito. That is wonderful. Anyway. I'm obsessed with that. So Mr. Tribbiani is staying at the house. Oh yes, yeah, yeah. And it turns out he's having an affair. He's been having an affair for many years with a poodle stuffer, like a poodle taxidermist. It's fantastic. And Joey finds out he's disgraced. He forces his dad to come clean to his mum. We then find, we see Joey's mum for the first time. She is played by Rita Perlman. Now, Rita Perlman is a very famous American actress who is like loads of credits for really iconic things that I've never seen.

1:50:02She's so famous. She's so famous. But one of the things she's most recently famous for is that she played Gloria in Just Like That. What's that? You don't remember who Gloria was? Well, Gloria was a big secretary who was weirdly prominent in the first two episodes of Just Like That, and then was never seen again. But it felt like she was going to hold the key for the whole series. Yeah, yeah, that she would have some piece of information that would get unlocked and then would start the story engine of like, maybe there's some hole in Big's finances or something like that. No, she never reappears.

1:50:32She's just oddly attention-seeking at his funeral and then we'd never see her again. But it's like, oh, she's the last of the old girls, like the last of the classic secretaries. Yeah. And the fact that she's Joey's mum is delicious to me. Me too. Okay, so here's the Friends episode that incorporates Mr. B. Oh my God. Oh my God. I think it's like, Joey needs funding for a film. And he's like, my mum works for this really rich finance guy on the street. Yeah. And then there's some sort of caper where he involves Chandler. And he like... Or one of the girls to go out with him. Rachel to go out, because Rachel is the Carrie Bradshaw of the Friends universe.

1:51:16Yeah. So it's like forcing Rachel to go on a date with Mr. Big. Yes. And Ross gets jealous? I don't know. That would be the obvious thing. And Joey gatecrashes the date and then tries to pitch the film to him. Yes. Why do I just know this has been filmed? Why do I know there is footage of this, of Chris Knopf in the... I can see guest starring Chris Knopf. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In the Friends font. I think you can see that. It's so perfect. And what do you think about Mr. Big's quirks are then exacerbated by the Friends universe? If you take Mr. Big and you put him through the Friends sort of Friends-o-vision.

1:51:53They'd be like, why is he always wearing that big coat? You know, like that, his big double-braces and black coat. Yeah, yeah, a big coat. It would be his low voice and his big coat and his cigars. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He'd be a complete, like, figure of fun in that world. Yeah. He would not be the serious sexual man. No. Who like Rachel's obsessed with at first Because he represents like money and power And her dad would really like him So then she thinks Oh Joey I could seriously want to go out with this guy I can't have you pitching your stupid movie At dinner And then there's some kind of turn that happens Where she realises that she hates him And then she's on Joey's side trying to get him money What would be the thing?

1:52:34Would it be that he just never takes his coat off?

1:52:41It would be so funny If it's because he never takes his coat on He's wearing that massive coat Yeah and she thinks he's like hiding something Yeah It'll be something really weird and frenzy Like she thinks he might have no arm And he's got a fake head Done, signed off Signed off Write it I'd send it to script If I was writing a spec script You know in the old days When they would do like a spec script I would do that yeah it's so good it's so good I'm mixing the figure I can see that episode that's what's amazing about Friends is the mix of these incredible fleshed out characters with these like deep rooted psychological stories and then there'll just be like a whole episode where the main drama is like oh Phoebe's boyfriend doesn't wear pants guy with ball bag is always on show this is a story that shows us what happens to a person where as you alluded to earlier they have no family connections they have no family context they have no upbringing really which leaves a question mark in their heart and a kind of yearning uh forever for this thing that the rest of us completely take for granted and think is the most mundane thing in the world which is a family identity and a family unit.

1:54:06And so much of her journey in the mid-seasons is all about trying to fill out this family picture. It's so, it's really beautiful. Yeah. And very sophisticated, like kind of stories from a drama rather than a sitcom. Yeah. And I think that is sort of the joke of her, right? Is that like this sort of backstory she has is so unbelievably compelling and nobody which everyone just kind of glances past it really because that is the world of like having deep friends that you know all this stuff about their mom who killed themselves followed by a stepfather who went to prison a father who abandoned her and also another mother figure who was her actual mother and she was given up for you know i mean it's all this kind of it's sort of um intentionally complex because i think if every if every friend represents a friend in one's own circle.

1:54:58Everybody has that person who has a needlessly complex backstory that you just can't be fucked to get into right now. So I think, I think the complexity is almost the joke of it in a weird way. Exactly. But it's so complex. And you add in the brother stuff. Oh my God, Frank Jr. I love Frank Jr. so much. I relate so much to Frank Jr. in terms of the universal experience of having a little brother. Go on, I've never had one, so so being a little brother is i think as a woman the most unnatural sibling dynamic in that you would never there's a world in which i think girls would be friends with a boy a bit older than them um and i think that there's a world in which you'd be friends with a girl older than you or younger than you there's just like no world outside the sibling relationship where as a 16 year old girl you would want to be friends with a 12 year old boy or 13 year old boy I think it's the hardest sibling dynamic in which to find an effortless friendship I'm really lucky with my brother we definitely got there but we definitely struggled in our teens and we had to just find you know that episode where she's so desperate to make memories and all he wants to do is melt things my favorite bit of that and she's like what do you like to do he says melt stuff and then she's like what like art meaning do you make art out of melted things and he goes yeah you can melt art but it's like just finding these and then I think at the end they're like trying to find these tiny things that they connect on yeah and that's what me and my brother had that for years it was like we would just have these certain programs or these certain things we like to eat or these certain in jokes where you're like as long as we have those we could find something to talk about yeah yeah um and she kind of despairs and worries that he's had a really bad time with her over the course of his stay and then at the end he says well this was like the best weekend end of my life and we had such great chats and we can't deeply which again I think that my brother was a bit like that when I was when we were younger I think he was like after much less than I was I think I'm learning this like epic bond totally that he just like didn't need that from me he was happy to like just watch friends and get a delivery and I was like yearning for something else I it's it's really interesting that I think like not to be so gendered about it but we are only ever gendered on this podcast but I do think that there's like a certain when people talk about getting comfort from their family and like wanting to hang out with their family I think chattering chittering oddballs like you and I we just want to like talk about our entire childhoods and be like what was that back there and like really deconstruct every other member of the family and the aunties and the uncles and really talk about the shit as the big epic as you say and really understand how both of us are you know or how many of us are going through life with the burdens we hold from the life that we led even though if the burdens are literally zero but then there's another type of familial bonding where it's like a primate thing it's like I get comfort from being near you and sort of touching you a bit and I sort of having my leg near your leg yeah two weird little monkeys just getting a kind of a sort of a strange physiological comfort from just being in the same space as each other in a way that almost replicates childhood so you're like watching telly or sort of eating sweets kind of thing you know it's quite lovely really like I had this feeling a few I don't know what it was about a year ago having a visit home and like I had a pack of fags in my bag and me and my sister and my brother were just smoking a pack of fags in the back garden and I just had this feeling that even though we were talking about nothing that it was the happiest I had been in a year like it was like it wasn't that the conversation was very elevated or there was any like things we were breaking through to it was like a physiological deep pleasure just from smoking fags with my siblings that's kind of inexplicable yeah it is sort of I finally sort of got it what people are talking about when they when you meet these families who are super tight and super close and they spend every Sunday together and it's like hard for me to understand sometimes why people would do that and then I get that reverberation and I'm like oh I do get it now well it's just intense familiarity isn't it yeah I just think that it.

1:59:28as you get older you just childhood if you had a happy childhood which I know is a very privileged position to be in yeah childhood and those memories of childhood it gets further and further away obviously but it just starts to feel like the land before time like it's i can't believe sometimes it feels when i think about my house in stanwell that we grew up in and my brother and i hanging out in the garden or you know it's just and i think having someone who was a witness and who is just your passport back to this place that becomes this place you can barely wear. You're so right. It's almost like remembering a country before a war.

2:00:10You're like, did we have vending machines that only had milk in them? Yes. It was the custom. And it becomes like, it becomes so precious. Do you, don't watch, of course you don't watch White Lotus, do you? No, I watched the first two seasons. I didn't watch the most recent season. Okay, well, it's the opposite. I didn't watch one or two. Oh, right, okay. flight and I watched all three and there's this bit at the end where there are these three girlfriends that and the kind of drama of their story over the after oh yes I have seen clips of this yes it was so well written it's like they seem like best friends but as they've moved into their 40s actually all they do is hang out and take turns to bitch about each other like why are they friends and then one of them at the end gives this speech that's so profound where she was like what gives meaning to these friendships and what gives meaning to this time it's time have you seen the clip yeah i have yeah it's beautiful and it's like it's so inscribable about certain relationships that you have about why they're so sacred is that there's just this quality that's assigned to them through history that cannot be assigned to any other relationship way that begins in the recent past and that's what I think that yeah yeah time gives life meaning yeah it is kind of one of the most profound things I've heard in years and it's from the White Lotus I know from a season that I did not watch yeah it's so good and time gives those relationships meaning what do you think about Phoebe having Frank's baby oh yeah because I remember when I was a teenager feeling so squeamish about that story.

2:01:54I really hated it. Really? Yeah, I was grossed out by it. It was very judgmental. Everything about it is fucking weird. Obviously, it's fucking weird that Frank is sort of 20 years old and marrying his home ec teacher. Yeah. But I also just love Frank and Alice. So you are. Like, them as recurring characters, and checking in with them every few years as this young guy with his young family and his slightly aging wife or whatever, but they're kind of obsessed with each other. And they never seem like they have enough money to make ends meet. And both of them seem sort of like vaguely malnourished.

2:02:29Do you know what I mean? In a way that like could be tragic in a different setting, but actually they're just a bit zany in a way that is not scripted, but feels true to real people I meet who are zany. Yeah. And also, again, nothing is accidental. why did Frank end up with this like homely yeah safe maternal woman yeah because he had the same child that his family yeah yeah what is the remind me of the familial connection again it's that her father started again with a new family and Frank yeah Frank Jr. is the product of that yeah but he didn't have I don't think he had parents yeah so he's not the stepfather's kid he is Frank Buffet's yeah son yeah and then I think Frank Buffet ran out again And then Frank Buffet became like a pharmacist, which is like a difficult job to get.

2:03:21He's really well-coached that actor for Frank Buffet. It's so mad that like that we've been building for so long with like, who would be this man who would have twin girls with a suicidal woman and then leave as soon as they were born. And then that woman gets remarried. And then shortly afterwards, she commits suicide. And then those girls are just on the wind forever. and they're like raise themselves separately in New York City and you kind of think as you're going through and you learn more but piecemeal about Phoebe's life what kind of monster would this man be? And then he's just pathetic.

2:03:57He's just a weak guy who just couldn't get it together and that is sadder than anything. Totally and that is so true to life that is so true to the girls the people that I know who had an absent parent like that. They're not they're often not demonic sometimes they are sometimes they are abusive and terrible and when you meet those people they're like and sure I'm glad that motherfucker's out of my life because he hung around and he hit my mom and now he's gone and I couldn't be fucking more pleased but those people who have those question marks in their life it's not because those people are demonic it's because those people just didn't have it in them and they hate themselves so much more from that than their kids could ever hate themselves exactly and the way that they meet where it's just like she's arranging the funeral for her grandmother who is her only family in the world which always makes me think where was Phoebe's grandmother when she was homeless and then he comes to the funeral he's this little bold bolding man with like horrible cocker spaniel ears you know what I mean he's got like the hair you know what I mean and the round little specks and he's like wearing the big coat he's like um yeah I didn't know her but I knew uh her daughter Lily and then Phoebe freaks out and then as she connects them again later in the episode it's revealed that he had no idea Lily was dead.

2:05:12Oh, it's so tragic the way it's acted because he just looks at his lap for a second and he goes, well, what about the girls? And he just thought, he was living this life where he thought, I'm a piece of shit. I'm pathetic. The best thing I could ever do for those little girls is to be out of their lives. And she's probably fine with Lily and Lily's family. And meanwhile, there's been 25 years of free fall for those children. It's the saddest thing I can think of. It is so, so painful, that episode. Yeah. Beautifully acted by that actor. Yeah, like really profoundly done. Oh, I love Lisa Kudrow so much.

2:05:49I love her. Sometimes I just want to cry by how much I love Lisa Kudrow. I love her. She's fucking talented. He's so talented. And how she plays Phoebe's journey is so beautiful. Phoebe does go on such a journey in that the more information she gathers and the more questions she has answered the more you see her growing in fortitude yeah this knowledge of identity and this knowledge of community that yeah that everyone else has in life and takes for granted until she gets to a point where she has enough security in knowing who she is and where she comes from and why her childhood transpired as it did that she's then free and she's ready to start her own unit yeah you're right it is like a scrapbooking journey for her it's just her gathering information to try and explain herself and it's never explicit because she is a strong personality she's just like oh yeah I just you know want to meet mum or blah blah blah you know and it's so beautiful and that's why I now just love those episodes where she has Frank's where she's the surrogate for me yeah I think also time as I've got older particularly because Frank's wife is so much older.

2:07:02I wouldn't have understood that when I watched that. I wouldn't have understood the implicit story about declining fertility or whatever. But, you know, I remember the last time I did my huge rewatch when I was in my mid-30s and I just had a breakup. It was during this time where I was thinking about having a baby of my own. Yeah. And was like kind of planning it. And I had a very, very, very close friend of mine offer to help. Oh, yeah? yeah yeah yeah i do remember that and obviously i i politely declined but it was to this day one of the kindest and most generous things that anyone has ever offered me and i will remember it forever and i will love him forever for offering it because he realizes you get older how precious this stuff is it's like the most precious and generous thing that that this woman could say to her brother because she wants family so much and she wants him to have family.

2:08:05Oh God. To say. And she says goodbye to the triplets, doesn't she? It's so beautiful, that story. And she does it as an act of kindness and generosity for this woman because biology hasn't allowed her to have like a nuclear family. It's, it's, it's such brilliant writing because it's so mental. It's like, They get a whole season of like I'm having my brother's babies Or whatever Am I on the radio? That was another reference to Waltham in tears You know There's a whole season of I'm having my brother's baby And they have all the jokes about that And they have They wring the rag dry On jokes about that And then you finally And obviously they have Made this plot point at all Because Lisa Kudrow was pregnant In real life And they wanted to find The best and funniest explanation for that within the show.

2:08:59And then you lead her all the way up to this where she says to Rachel in the living room, I want to keep one. And then when she finally says goodbye to them and you realise it really hits you like, oh, for anyone to sort of give away their child like this is the most profound, not their child, but to give away our child they've given birth to is the most profound act of grace and generosity. And it's so beautiful. It's beautiful. It's the most beautiful thing that you can do for Frank. It's the most beautiful thing things she can do for Alice. Yeah, I just love that story now. It's like the most profound family story.

2:09:34Yeah. It's that whole story. Yeah, I think we use the phrase, some of my book bears lately, in the book world, that people are just obsessed with the phrase found family. Well, I've never even heard that. It is an obsession. I can't believe you haven't heard this before. Like urban family, like the bridge. Yeah, yeah. And in TV, they use it a lot too. The found family, urban family. And what they mean by that is two people who meet and we don't know much about their family. Or like people who have a gang of friends and whatever. And like, it's become such an overused trope. And it's sort of one of the few instances where it's really applicable.

2:10:05It's like, oh, this person really has cobbled together this thing piecemeal and earned every relationship they're in. And it's also that thing of like, unlike the other friends, she doesn't have this history the way that like, the other friends are so sewn in together with Monica as best friend with Rachel. Ross is Monica's older brother. Chandler is Ross's flatmate from college. and then that's I think that's why you have Joey and Phoebe at the other end because they are kind of the blow-ins in a weird way and so like for Phoebe to have such a lack of connection and to really tightly sew everyone in herself and earn every speck of family that she gets is so beautiful I love this show I love this show I've loved doing this mini-series so much because I just feel like yes it's made me understand how good friends is so much more but every time I sit down and talk to somebody about it, I feel like I learn how they feel about relationships more.

2:10:57Like family relationships and friend relationships and, you know, love and everything. I feel like I have learned so much more about the friends in my life through this, you know? Even though I get shit wrong all the time, you people write in with all the things I've gotten wrong about friends. People know so much about friends. Know so much. This is really, I don't know the most about friends. I don't even feel the most about friends. I just have some feelings about friends some feelings I have some feelings about friends and this is what you've been getting this season I loved it and I will continue to love it thank you are we done now do you think I think we are but I just have one more thing to say okay she's in hiding

2:11:44bye everybody bye

2:11:52You You