Friends Thru A Lens: Joey's Acting Career with Jessie Brown Findlay

0:06Hello and welcome to Friends Through a Lens, the podcast where I talk to my real life friends about the show Friends through a lens of their choosing. My name is Caroline, and what kind of actor can't say, mmm, noodle soup? And joining me is the star of the now-canceled Mac and Cheese. It's Jessica Brown Finlay. Hello. Hello. I've said that on intro so many times now, and every time I laugh and the other person laughs as well. I just love saying those words. I was trying to quash. I was like, don't ruin the intro. Don't immediately just, like, fuck it all up. I love it. You're one of my first friends who's come on, who shares a job with one of the friends.

0:48And that friend is Joey Trippie Rummy. And wow, our lives are so intertwined. So intertwined. You are into amateur carpentry and sandwiches. Absolutely. You actually are, you're an actor of much renown. Many people will have seen you in many things, I'm sure. You can drag up IMDb, I won't embarrass you on the podcast now. But you are someone who has, you have that in common. But you are like, you love a hobby during the day. I do. I think as an actor, if you only do that, you will go completely insane. And also it's sort of, it's just, I want to be busy. I want to fill my time. I like some things I pick up and I do for a little bit.

1:31The carpentry. Like my knitting. Oh my God. I'm still terrible at knitting. I can make very, very long scarves because I get distracted while I'm watching a film. And then I realize, oh, God, it's like eight foot long or things that I don't get good at or like don't sort of carry on. But then other stuff that I do all the time, like I'll paint a lot. I cook all the time just because when you're, quote, unemployed, it's a little bit scary. So you just kind of you're like, well, OK, three course meal then. three course meal for four people of which there are only two but we will consume the whole thing so it's fine a painting of everyone I've ever met nude people talk about being gainfully employed they don't talk about being gainfully unemployed which is essentially what being an actor is so much of the time you wait on jobs for so long and then it's just then you work madly as I know you are at the moment but I think for the privileges of a sitcom having a character who is an actor is very helpful for that.

2:33And like there's always this schism in Friends and this is like in a legendary early episode. Remember the one about I think it's called the one with four eggplants and something or whatever. Yeah. Oh, when they go to the gig. Yes. We go to Hootie and the Blowfish. Half of them make money because Chandler has a fancy office job. Monica's got a brand new job and Ross is a professor or no, he's a paleontologist so they're all gainfully employed. Yeah. And the other three are gainfully unemployed or underemployed because Joey's an actor, Phoebe's a massage therapist, is and Rachel's a waitress and like I refer to the episode because it's like one of those brilliant like very rarely seen elsewhere in culture and not really talked about and often like within friendship groups just like everyone's like let's not get specific but like can we find something that that we can all do yeah and there's like the feast and famine of being an artist of any kind is quite poignant so you're either you're working like oh my god when you're younger you're like yay let's buy I don't know something anything and then you suddenly and then you're suddenly out of a job and you realize very very quickly you don't know how long that's for and so instead of going up and down you just sort of try and find like a happy medium but I think there's that moment also the great thing about one of the characters being an actor in the show of friends is you've always got someone to knock on the door to and be like hi joey what you up to and during the day it's like nothing what do you want to do he can be in the coffee shop it's always realistic that he could be there and then there are those early moments of friends where you you see them all watch his thing and they're all so excited for him and then also having to like a sort of wiggling scale of trying to either hide how excited they are about the potential thing he's doing or be as kind as they possibly can to the thing they've done that they think is not very good right because the story of joey's acting career it's like a bubble within a bubble right because there's the dr drake remores and the mac and cheese and that crappy film he does in las vegas that ends up just falling apart yeah i'm sure you have loads to stay on but um But then there's the bubble out of that, which is like, oh, no creative career happens within a vacuum.

4:54It happens in and around people who have to support it for sometimes long after that support feels realistic. Yeah, definitely. And I think that what I love is that, you know, that he's got a mate like Chandler who helps him so he can live in Manhattan and be there. and Janet puts a lot of his bills and gets very little credit for it very little credit for it but so and you know to be that I mean there are hints of realism in what happens but just like moments like that that you can and he steps in you know sometimes to help to help out like there's this an episode where he he'll like he's a waiter for Monica at the thing oh yeah yeah mostly to try and boost her like credit work because they all hate her and then he gets distracted and joins in hating her which is really brutal yeah he goes method yeah he goes really method and joins joins sort of joins the haters but um but that like there is that part to if you love anyone who is an artist whether it's a friend or a partner in a way the like wildness of what it is is part of the journey is part of the job description like my job is as much to go to work be off book know what I'm doing and be ready to get like really creative and throw myself into very unexpected spaces as much as it is to not completely implode the minute I'm not like sat there with a schedule to be interested in art outside of a script to be and to take responsibility as for myself as an artist like I love being an artist it's the best thing and I say artist rather than actor only because I never really originally planned on being an actor and so there are so many sort of little spokes to this umbrella that I'm kind of under that I adore and they all influence me but what I also admire not maybe admire what I find so funny about Joey is that he doesn't seem to know anything about his craft at all like he's like reference points are the shining jack nicholson yeah like taxi driver like he's just it's sort of real sort of old school italian sort of godfather-esque moments and then kind of nothing like but i i adore that it's very boyish it's very like i saw scarface now i want to be the guy in scarface i'm italian he's italian let's do it come on where's my where's my award?

7:34Where's my job? I was listening to lots of interviews with creators and actors in preparing for this season and obviously listening to interviews with Matt LeBlanc. I think it's interesting. I think the joy of a sitcom that runs for 10 seasons at an average of 22 episodes per season is that these characters were invariably shaped by the actors who were playing them. So lots of things that Matt LeBlanc are true about his life are kind of common to the Joey character right and he talks about going in for the audition for Joey and that he saw it was the first time he'd ever been in an audition room where nobody looked like anybody else like it was just like a random smattering of hot guys they were like man under 30 hot enough to be believably an actor I guess and he said there was a guy with a cowboy hat on who was doing a totally different thing and then he talked about what got him into acting this is the interviewer that he it's so crazy to me.

8:34So he was visiting a friend in New York for the weekend. He was a amateur carpenter. He is from Massachusetts, Matt LeBlanc. And he was just like, he was working with his family business situation. And then he said he was putting up a frames in New England in winter. And he was like, this sucks. I'm going to like bum on my friend's couch for a while in New York, see what he's doing. Meets a pretty girl on the street, starts talking to her. She says, I'm an actor. I'm going to go see my manager. Do you want to come? And then he got his manager That is like the most Joey Tribbiani story and it really happened to Malibank.

9:08That's so random. I mean, I adore that. Because like sometimes people ask me and they're like, how do you get into the industry? I'm like, oh God, don't ask me. I mean, like I will give you every piece of advice I can possibly throw at you. But it was totally random for you as well. Totally random, totally sort of really convoluted and ridiculous. So someone I was at art school with, I sort of knew some girls who were at models. Madels? models and um yeah basically you know they were like well we all you know that one of them was going up for an advert they were like well you don't obviously necessarily have to be a model to be in an advert and I was like could afford me anyway and she was like why don't you just come in and and see what they say and you could go on some meetings because if you get one student loans paid or what you know because advertising money's mad so I was I thought well that sounds absolutely fantastic i'll go in went in they also confirmed not a model and i was like no i know i'm sure and etc but i was like well let me just go in and see and because i was just like why not i did so many odd jobs that it made sense and then so went on a couple of castings for that really enjoyed it because they're ridiculous the things they ask you to do everything's in like contrast to the last thing that they said it's very very confusing but i found the whole thing quite hilarious and then And yeah, a casting director of one of those was assisting a casting director for a film.

10:31And then she got me in to read for that. And I went back again and again. And it turned out to be a film. And I knocked on a door for the last audition. And Tim Burton's there. And I'm auditioning for Alice in Wonderland. I go in like full, I got, you know, they put you in like the costume and the wig and the whole thing. And I did a screen test, didn't get the job. And then from that, got an agent because the casting director said, look, there's this girl. She's got it. She's got it, baby. I think she was just like, look, she's got some hutspots. So just, you know, give her a go. And then, yeah.

11:04And then that's been my job ever since. But I love that he did that. And it is very Joey. And that's just, I do, I think there's something so magic about now. because I was saying earlier that I what I found wild watching episodes of Friends with the lens of thinking actor is that I never really made a link between the fact that Joey Tribbiani and I have the same job because of maybe his approach to it but what really fascinates me and I think maybe fascinated me before I became an actor growing up watching this show And like definitely since has always kind of held me in quite a sort of culturally, I just want to know everything about what the process was like for those six actors, for those 10 years, the 10 seasons of how it, what it was like and performing these shows, sort of getting a script, rehearsing for three days, like filming a whole episode in front of a live audience over sort of six, seven hours.

12:10and then starting again the next week, this kind of magic balance between it feeling it's TV, but you're kind of performing it as close to theatre as TV can get and what that connection must have been like. And I think we've all sat there and watched bloopers when we're feeling, like if you're ever feeling really low, I'm just going to watch them try to make each other laugh, which is so glorious. And then the thought also of, you know, they all went from not knowing each other to being the only six people in the whole world who knew what that experience was like, even though they've been watched by, like, well, billions of views have been seen of friends and that those characters slowly moulded to them.

12:55I remember one of the people, maybe one of the producers and writers, saying that they'd seen loads of people for Rachel and that so often what would happen is they'd be great, but the character felt really just kind of cold and you could just really easily be like, oh, you're so spoiled and annoying, I don't like you. And that Jennifer Aniston just brought this warmth and sort of complete, like, you just love her and you really want her, you adore the fact that she originally starts in this really sort of slightly vapid, unrealistic, like, world and then is forced into what your 20s are really like, which is you're on your own, but we're all going to be here as our kind of chosen family.

13:42And that actor was part of that storyline and warmth. And that Matt LeBron was really, I imagine the carpentry came in because he was like... Right, right. They were kind of using every part of the buffalo. I love that. I wonder at what point that story about him meeting a girl, following her down the road, having a chat. He said, I never really got with the girl, but I got the manager kind of thing. and then he did some sort of modeling and commercial work. And then, you know, he was on Married With Children. He was kind of bopping around sitcoms for a long time. And it's so interesting because like, okay, you didn't meet a pretty girl and follow her down the street, but your entry into this profession isn't that dissimilar in that it's complete luck and kismet and like having an it factor in a great face at a young age.

14:28Like that is so, there's nothing more glamorous than that. No, and it being also, I think now, that would, no, I'm not going to say never happened because that's really pessimistic and I hate pessimism. But there was something about it in the world at the time. What was it? 2007. Like the idea of like social media having any influence on who you're going to cast in something or what that looks like was just not like sort of not part of it. Just like the only thing social media really had like a hold on was the magic that was my space and just people obsessed with music. Yeah, that wasn't having any impact on casting decisions though.

15:11No, not at all. And so like in that way, I feel like so grateful and happy that I was that age then. And people went, okay. And if it doesn't work out, we'll have to be like, no, bye. After a while. But why not let someone try and see if they've got something? But what's so interesting, though, is that you, I mean, both you and Matt LeBlanc, and by extension, Matt LeBlanc's shadow self, which is Joey Tribbiani, had this entry into the business that was kind of based on right place, right time. It's like so 1950, so MGM, so LaTurne having a milkshake. But you obviously have moulded your life and your profession around like, but I am an artist and I am going to work on not just my craft within the performance that I do every night on stage or in front of the camera, but I'm going to like feed the soul that then feeds the art.

16:01I'm going to like observe, you know, visual art and paint and everything that you do. And like, I like that you chose one lane and then Joey Tribbiani chooses the other, which is that like, I'm going to spend my time hanging out, eating sandwiches, like not really feeding the art. And it's just like, it's so fun. And the more I thought about it. Don't get me wrong, I do eat a lot of sandwiches and sit on my butt and I watch a lot of reality TV, which I like to put into the box of research. And it is. The thing I want to ask you about that I was really thinking about today because Joey and Matt LeBlanc as a pair, we'll talk about his roles in just a minute, but they went on a journey together through to Joey, the spin-off show.

16:44Yes, which I've never seen. Have you seen? A couple of episodes. Yeah. But then after, you know, it was sort of, it's this great punchline in all of, maybe it's worth revisiting for this podcast. because it is such a piece of cultural trash that people are so cruel about. And I wouldn't imagine if I went back to it and took it out of the context of comparing it to the next Friends or it being the follow-on from Friends. I'm sure it has perfectly good legs as a sitcom show or whatever. So his relationship, all of the Friends, all six of them, have to have these lifelong relationships with these characters.

17:15But Joey specifically and Matt LeBlanc, because they are kind of these interchangeable things, because Joey is an actor and Matt LeBlanc is an actor. So it's like, we go into Joey, Joey fails. And then many years later, we have episodes where Matt LeBlanc plays himself. And where, I'm sure you've seen it, I mean, where Stephen Mangin and Tamsin Gregg, they play these British writers who are disgusted at the idea of Joey Tribbiani, Matt LeBlanc, being in their sensitive show that, you know, was supposed to be the small little lovely, you know, romance in a boarding school or whatever. And they like can't believe it.

17:49and they have to almost be convinced themselves, even though they're these clever people who understand television, that Joey Tribbiani and Matt LeBlanc aren't the same thing. So I guess my question to you is that, like, the credit of having an actor play an actor in a long-running TV show is that he's always around, he always has a fun storyline, he's great for stories or whatever. But is the downside of that that we know that Joey Tribbiani is, quote-unquote, a bad actor? Yes. Therefore, do we extend that same discredit to Matt LeBlanc? you know it's crazy i think honestly in that within that context or that at least it worked for that storyline right that sort of the thing that people might decide quickly is that oh he's a bad actor because he could never get jobs as an actor in friends but he is i was saying the other day that i just think his joey tribiani's greatest role of his life is how good a friend he is i mean he he fucks up a lot and but he never really he doesn't mean to and he's so loving and i just think he'll be like the most amazing like he sort of loves emma and i'm sure he'll like go and visit the twins loads out in like wherever it is like connecticut where they're moving to and his you know he's he's mush and you know he kind of gives himself the um uh it's sort of like walks around in this sort of you know I'm a macho man uh but really just you know complete like mush for his friends and just adores them um and very hungry all the time but I it's it's so funny that we imagine him or on any level to be a bad actor because the only way you could portray being that terrible and ridiculous is by knowing is by being able to I guess what am I trying to say like hit it hit the wrong notes you know um um like when and when a brilliant singer for a comedy sketch can like hit wrong notes because they know what Sabrina Carpenter did it yeah they know what sounds like what sounds great and so they know how the smallest tweak that suddenly makes something seem so from effortless to oh my god that's awful please stop doing it and that's that takes a lot of effort and it also takes I think an ego um I think there are a lot of actors out there who would sort of want their character to still sort of maybe maybe still be quietly brilliant you know like just in case anyone's watching just like oh god it's really amazing like sort of I work with it I've worked with actors before who like on on paper their character is you know they're there for that role and it is it's that flavor and they sort of want to make them maybe a bit softer maybe a bit nicer or maybe maybe he doesn't cheat with like 10 people maybe it's just like one and and it was a mistake and he sort of fell into her and you're like guys come on he's an asshole just play the role and like you have to have you have to be gracious enough to not have a mad ego to let yourself do that to be on screen terrible at the job description you are on stage or on also performing being brilliant at that's such a mad balance that i couldn't do that and i don't think anyone gave him credit for that either he was um he was you know nominated a lot but never won an emmy as or anything he never really won any major award as joey every single one of them should have won something because like oh just but only because like one wrong step and i just don't know if we'd have the show and we'd be sitting here talking about it but also what a joy to have something that keeps going that people adore that that allows you to really just do your job and like and have so much fun comedy is one of those things i think it's like in your bones or not i i would describe myself as accidentally funny but like in terms but in terms of making a line on the page and making it inherently funny is it like a rhythmic thing is a thing i mean i'll give it a damn good go but someone like matthew perry for example his entire spirit was i have to get this laugh and i'm going to do it and oh not entire spirit but his energy as an actor we just like always found it and i just think that's they all can do that that's really amazing and none of it's the same flavor and like yeah each of them has their own kind of musicality when it comes to how they deliver dialogue yeah like you could you could listen to their dialogue being hummed through a wall and know like and know who was saying it in what way 100 % do you know I remembered I had but when I was maybe it was about 13 because I got a cd player when I was 13 it was a huge game huge moment anyway and I had a cd that was some of the music from Friends and then some of the tracks were just sections from the episode just like funny bits one of them one of them is the Joey Tribbiani moment of playing someone's who is it whose bum is he playing?

23:02Oh Al Pacino's butt and then with John is saying like oh you know like I can't wait for the grand opening and it's so interesting that you say about sort of the rhythm and the tone of their lines because I would listen to it And the rhythm when I'm watching it, I know exactly when it comes in because there is this sort of pitter patter, like back and forth that they can achieve. And I just think it's so cool. But I had it as a CD. And I thought, I just thought it was the coolest thing in the world to own at the time. That is very cool. Also, it was, I mean, what a world. It's so far away from now, I guess it's kind of like saving reels or something.

23:40Yeah, but just be like, now I'm going to listen to like bits of Friends on my walk to school. I want to talk about okay do you want to start with Dr. Drake Ramore yeah because it is his big role it is and I and I know you also you've had you've had so many roles across your life but you've also had some that like I've become very iconic and have become that thing where people will come up to you in the yeah in the street or you're like you'll you'll be lady Sybil till you die I will yeah I'm like I have to like remind myself when I'm around you not to bring it up because I just think it's so funny and cool that you're like sewn into the culture in this like irreparable way.

24:17I know. It's like so cool. So little and young. Cute. Tiny and no idea what I'm doing. Yeah, let's talk about like Dr. Drake Ramore, which I believe he gets in season two. There's a couple of theater stuff before that, which we'll get back to, but it is his like big break of the show. It's a big break. Yeah. And he starts, am I right in thinking, remembering that he gets this small part on it? Yeah. Or like has to audition and then, but then it becomes a bigger role. And it's just, it blows his freaking mind. As it would. Like I'm on, you know, Days of Our Lives, which, side note, Jennifer Aniston's dad was on.

24:55I thought it was a make-believe show. Like what do I know? And he has this moment of thinking, oh, well, I'm done then. Like this is me for the rest of my life. And I think. This level, this like everyone knows who I am. and he which like let's face it he loves right but like loves in like an innocent way yes yes like i we have this whole kind of run of episodes where it is like joey gets um dr dr remora we see actually very little of it and i i do this talk on world building that i include i literally put up a slide and it says it has a picture of joey pointing at the tv while he's being mr dr remora and i said who's this and everyone says joey tribiani and i say and who's this and i say i I say, everyone says Dr.

25:38Drake Ramore. And then I say, do you know Dr. Drake Ramore only appeared in six episodes of the show Friends? And the reason I always pointed out during world building classes with creative fiction is that to me, excellent world building means that you imagine more than actually there. And so we understand. Yeah. we feel and know Dr. Drake Ramore so well who is like a fake character played by a fake character on a show and like because it's just like it's so and again with world building it's like it's people recognizing him throughout the run of the show it's like him talking about residuals it's him talking about the money that he's getting from it and what he's going to buy with it and like talking about the Soap Opera Digest talking about Soap Opera Awards you know what I mean going back to days of our lives in the end like yeah and then a flashback episode where they're like, oh, what could have happened?

26:31Or did any of you ever hook up with anyone? There were any maybes. And then there was this version where Rachel is a huge sort of Days of Our Lives fan and they can't believe she's meeting Dr. Drake Ramon. Which is so the world where if she had married Barry and she'd been a housewife and she'd just watch TV all day. Watch TV all day and became obsessed and was in love with Joey. Whereas in real life she's like, oh, Joey, baby. I love it. Which I love. It's so clever. that they can do that, that that was achieved within sort of, what were they, like 27 minutes? Yeah. 27 eps of 10 series. It's like all woven in there.

27:08But like when he gets this job, it's huge because I think up until that moment we've seen some very funny, embarrassing theatre. Yes. Freud. Freud! Freud! Freud! Freud! One of which is just genuinely like, and I was saying this, like there's this moment where the woman on the couch, Like you see the beginning and it like goes into a musical gig. All you want is a little, but you envy the shrang. And then, and they're all just sat there going, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. And then at the end for the curtain call, she's just still on the couch and she does the curtain call from the couch. She just moves her arms like as if to like curtsy.

27:46And I don't know why I love it so much because I only really noticed it when I was looking through it for this research. And I thought, what role did that woman have that she never got up? And I was thinking, oh, that would be a, like, I'd sort of, I'd dread that. I'd be like, oh, I'm going to have to sit down for like an hour and a half. I hope it wasn't an hour and a half. I hope that play was, you know, a nice 30 minutes. But you can so see the sort of off-Broadway sort of buzz about it being like, and the thing is, she never gets up. And it's a musical. What you've always wanted. And then, so they've been usually.

28:18A musical where one of the characters doesn't do anything. I like these things where he doesn't make it on time and missing auditions and all this stuff. when this like big role comes through and he gets it and he's on tv and he's like his nan is watching and like i remember when i when i when i got down to it was just so mad to me it was my second job right and i'm working with maggie freaking smith it's crazy who i just was obsessed with like obviously yeah you know everyone's so experienced and you're like what 23 yeah yeah 22 when i got job 23 when it came out and i remember i sat with my parents and my nan and my granddad and a couple of my best mates from school and this is something i have and never will do again sit down and go let's watch my work because it was a collaborative thing there were so many people in it and i couldn't freaking believe that because i thought oh i'll make a film and then i'll go back to art school and then that didn't seem to be happening um and i grew up on period dramas right like any sane human and I like a millennial woman just being like pretty dress and I um look at her pretty dress um and I and I you know just sat and watched his thing so when you see him watch it with his gran and then it turns out that like oh they've cut him out oh that's maybe a different show but he's been cut out or something but they're just like there are very few moments like that where you sit with the people that you love and you trust completely that they love you even if something is awful yeah um and that you can all sort of gather around the telly or go to the cinema and watch something and be giddy about the fact that you get to do the thing as and as an artist you don't often get to do the thing and it is always a miracle and seeing him sort of like watching so proudly and then he loses his head and moves out the apartment which is like I'm dying to talk to you about this trajectory of that moment where an actor after a long time of struggle gets a lot of money and has no idea what to do with it and buys large porcelain dogs.

30:23I mean, story of my life. I know. And a little window with rain that goes through it. Just like, his taste is so funny. The shit he buys. It, like, it must, so many of the people on that show who dress that show, like, if you think about it, like, all the things they would be buying for him, they all have been working with actors forever. Yes. That must be based on flats they've been in. I'm sure it's based on things like that, but also because of kind of what we were saying earlier of Joey having this sort of seemingly, at least, portrayed on the show, quite a sort of narrow view of what being an actor is.

30:56And so not necessarily having his own sense of style or artistry and it being just, oh, I know how he gets loads of stuff. He goes into a shop and then the salesperson And just sort of talks him into going like, well, you know, we've had someone in here from, you know, insert like big film or TV show or something who bought this. And then he goes, OK, well, I'm an actor who's just got a show, so I'll get 10. And then, you know, give me a rain machine window. And just sort of someone just kind of not knowing what to do with it, but wanting to show. It's just status and security, isn't it? Yeah.

31:34and so there's a mixture of that and then also just desperately wanting maybe to show people around you that like you're like I'm okay I know I'm doing the thing because like sometimes I find this a lot even now like sometimes people go oh you're an actor oh how is that and I'm like you know what it's a bit mad and like yeah like sure it's like still a bit funky but it's all right and I'm like oh good for you it's for you and I'm sometimes like and you're and so I can imagine him going well look it's going very well look at my nine foot tall porcelain rabbit and my because this sort of idea of and you do see it sometimes with like you you know you know someone and then suddenly they're you know next time you see them everything they're wearing is burberry or something you know and whatever and it's kind of almost this like armoring up to go no no no I'm like I'm an artist but I'm I'm I'm making money for my art it's so true I mean it's true of every artistic profession, I've definitely had moments like that.

32:33And I think with acting and writing, they're very similar in the sense that they're jobs that everybody thinks they can do on some level. Very few people get to do. Yeah. And also that like it's the precariousness. It's the thing exactly that you said at the top of the podcast, which is you're broke and you simply don't know for how long. You don't know if this, you know, 200 quid in your bank account is to last you for three weeks or three months, you know? Yeah. And it's that same thing. I've had these moments where I wanted to reassure everyone that I had somehow transcended the moment of struggle.

33:06Yeah. And I remember saying something on my Instagram stories once because like someone had sent me a dress and I said something to the, I was so excited. I got to wear it to this like fancy event. And I said something to the effect of this is one of my favorite designers on the story, on the Instagram story. And my sister texted me immediately saying one of my favorite designers. like being like as if you have favourite designers you don't you absolute cretin you're like yeah I know but this one I've like I've heard of I've heard of I'm like I'm gonna say it's amazing it was so Joey in his six foot porcelain dog for even like live out your little Cinderella moment I remember once you're so like fuck you in those moments I know I remember once I knew someone I knew an actor and they'd been like so they were going to like a premiere so they were gonna wear a suit and so you're lent a suit by someone.

33:58I think it was like a Savareau sitch. And obviously their whole thing is you will wear a suit like it's made for you. So it was tweaked and altered for this person. And as such, after, they got to keep it. And I thought, oh, is that how it works? If you get to borrow something, do you get to keep it? Oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God. Oh, my God, no. And when it happened to me, they're like, here it is. And I was like, oh, my word. And then they were like, okay, so we're picking up tomorrow at 3. it was like what? I was like no! And one of them so much I love so much and also I was single at the time and I couldn't get it off at the end of the night because it turns out dresses are made to have like a crew crew like do up and down in and it was so expensive I didn't know what to do with it so I like lay on top of my bed and waited for my alarm to go off to go to work the next day got up took my little bag with me with a change of clothes and then just came in going can someone help me out with this please because I'm really really worried I'm going to ruin it and they're going to have to pay for it and I don't know how I'm going to pay for it.

34:56You should have to work like that. That's so funny. You're like Jane Fonda. But, um, ridiculous. But I couldn't believe you didn't get to keep it and that was really, really heartbreaking. But it's just, yeah. So it was little clothes. I do remember there being one moment, though, where I got a job and I realised, I was like, oh, I might, honestly, I've consumed too much sex in this city because I was, I thought, okay, well, you know, you buy shoes. oh yes oh my god i remember thinking i had to buy shoes as well i bought shoes and i don't even like shoes how am i ever going to save up for anything and then you i'm like oh i'll sell them off and then you realize they sell for like nothing because they're shoes that you've worn a billion times and they're like scabby and odd but i remember like realizing i was like oh i looked in my wardrobe and thought well there it is my obsession with vintage clothing there's the like nowhere near like a deposit or anything like that is not what I mean but like there's my holiday to Cornwall that I can't go on because it's in my wardrobe then you remember that you're already married and that there's no like hedge fund manager coming around the bend to save you there's no one to save me it's me and that's stupid because it's a self-employed person that's married to another self-employed actor like what are we doing ridiculous stupid so he completely runs away with himself he briefly moves out oh bless him I think it's so interesting that like in the run of Friends, one of the most meaningful in terms of like dramatic schisms in terms of people breaking up and getting back together.

36:27Is Joey and Chandler. It is. Like it happens quite a lot. Like when they have like a big issue with them, it is played very dramatically. I know. I love it. For some reason, the bracelet episode really lives Renfri in my head. That like when Chandler's making fun of the bracelet that Joey got up. he just thinks he's like and also it's joey's joey's just trying to say like you know you've always supported me and i want to say thanks and this is you know i think you're like no it's not even like he thought he'd like it it's just this thing of going this is how much i love you look it's it's really shiny best buds and and we're best buds and like you know we can be best friends and what i think really speak what's kind of amazing about that relationship and about the fact that then he does move back in and it's not just because he gets killed off which i want to talk to you about but also that like being sometimes being an artist being an actor and i was talking about this earlier when we were just like sitting down and catching up i think it's very strange because you work around a lot of people all day um when you're at work on in like various degrees whether it's like going day in day out and doing a play or working in film and tv were just like so many moving parts to make sort of one little scene kind of happen it can sometimes weirdly be incredibly lonely and you realize that you're sort of on and around people all the time but then it's sort of everything stops you get in the car and you go home and then sort of no one is around because often you're free at times of the day when no one else is about and then your busy times like you're getting up before anyone else is awake you're getting you're going to work at 4 30 in the morning and then you get back at sort of 8 39 so you've missed oh grabbing a beer with some friends maybe or whatever and then like when you are free everyone thinks mate it's tuesday afternoon i'm busy i'm not available to hang um or at least that happens you know in your early 20s people are about still and then suddenly everyone has proper jobs and you realize oh no i'm really my my life is really strange and so having that kind of relationship and the fact that it's a beautiful male friendship.

38:42Yeah. And I know, like, there are funky bits and, like... Right, we all know about the gay panic. We all know. And we all know it's terrible for that. But there is a part to it. There's, like, a little compilation thing that I think they show in an episode all the time, of all the times that they hug and that they're, like, sort of really close to each other. And I think if you have that experience as an artist, like, with a best friend or someone, that no matter what your job looks like and what I love about Joey's trajectory, is that the friends he has never falter. Because I honestly think if you're an actor who has new and different friends every year and the friends get more and more famous and everyone else that you used to know has just disappeared.

39:25And I'm sure you've known and worked with people like that. It's absolutely terrifying. And then you just realise, oh, I was just like a little head to stand on to get to somewhere else. But for Joey, he has his friends that are sort of unwaveringly loving. even though he's ridiculous as we all are i think that's the best thing as an artist if you have a group of friends that no matter like meet people and become friends with with new people and be open to that always but like you've got to have some friends who know you forever yeah and who like i've even got mates my mates from school who even just the fact that i've caught like i've gone by jesse for forever now just with my friends and they're just like no it's jess like i met you when you're 11 it's Jess we decided because you didn't like Jessica so you got given Jess that's your name your name is Jess and and sort of just having this sort of bullshit detector thing of just always knowing you for something else and that you were never that when they met you I think it's so important I think there is a very true moment in that where like I think whenever anyone has that first moment of flare-up of any kind of success they and and I think it actually it's It's obviously, it's silly.

40:37He buys a six foot porcelain dog. It's hilarious. It's so good. I love as well that that one makes it through. I know, that's what it keeps. It's what it keeps. Right at the end. And then like Courtney Cox is like, you know, if that thing fell off the back of the truck, it wouldn't be the worst thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like everyone has that moment where they're like, oh, maybe I am being called up to the big leagues. Maybe I am the kind of person who has a facialist or whatever. And then they're like, no, no. You test it for a minute. I think anyone who has that any kind of moment like that where they're like, maybe I'm the kind of person who does that.

41:06And then you just for a minute, you're like, no, deeply unpleasant. Not nice. Not nice. But like, let's just occasionally book a facial and that will be lovely. But then just not have to live in the world where that becomes my thing. My thing. Or where it takes over what you were doing. Oh, Joey, I love him so much. While we're on Dr. Drake Ramore, I want to talk about two things. On this first sort of flush of his, because he comes back again towards the end of the show. First of all is smell the fart acting. Oh my God. Now this is, I think for the general public. I swear to God I use this all the time.

41:33But this is what people know about acting. If people know one thing, one skill or trick about acting, it is smell the fart acting, which is if you forget your lines, you sort of like lift your face to the air as if you're trying to smell a fart and then you do a long pause and then continue the line. Is there truth in this? You know what's really funny is I, oh God, I had this very recently on set. But sometimes with accent work, if you're doing an accent, it's so specific to who you're playing, the period of which you're playing a role in and where someone is from very, very specifically. So you can know a word, but there are different ways in which we say something.

42:13So like you and I, we're speaking the same language and yet like there are different ways in which we say words. And I had this moment of I'd learned a line with a certain way of saying a word. and in fact from where my character is they would pronounce it differently and every time I got to this word I went oh god is it that one or that one that one or that one and then I just have this moment of thinking and it felt like it was lasting forever and I was like and I joked with a co-star of mine this amazing woman I'm working with I'm doing the thing from friends like smelling fart smelling fart acting going no it's that one say it that way say it that way and then I just had to say like guys no no no that's really awful can i go back and do it again i know i know what to say now i know the way i remember the words i can't remember i've honestly mentally blocked it okay it does sound like a traumatic day at work it's just like one of those days where he's like how was it we're like not good not good if you're going to work and accidentally doing things that joey tribbiani does at work it's not a great day at work it's not a great day at work i should be better at my job by now but anyway and tell me about being killed off because what happens What happens to Drake Ramore, or what happens to George Giovanni, is that he gets, again, it's during his segment of getting too big for his boots, he gives an interview to Soap Opera Digest.

43:30He gets really sassy about the writers. He says sometimes he writes his own lines. Oh my God, Joey, no. That moment on screen when he knows he's about to get killed off and he just won't walk into the elevator shaft. He's like, does anybody else want the elevator? No, no. They just asked for you. They just said you. I don't think I know anyone who has gone through a script to learn their lines or to see what the next episode holds. Right. As an actor and then gone, I die? Right, you're warned. It's a phone call, right? Because you've died a lot. I die a lot, yeah. To the point that mates are like, hey, do you die in this one?

44:12Because I just, oh. And actually my mum came to see me in Hamlet. So this is ages ago now. But there were like a couple of jobs back to back where I just like kept dying. And it was the last time she came to see the last show. And she came backstage after and she was like, I just need you to, can you just stop dying? I don't want to watch you die. Do you know what? That's so fair. I was like, fair enough. And it's not like I was dying and just like, oh, whoopsie. It's not comedic dying. It's just like, no, death by like, she's like death by suicide or death by like, being flipped or a definite childbirth or definite thing it's just honestly May I posit a theory?

44:52Yes I think it's because you have past face What's that mean? Because you know how so many actors they have I'm sure we all do this at home when we're watching stuff with our families our partners or whatever it's like they have face that looks like it's seen a phone too many times Sometimes I see actors and she looks like she has a TikTok account and she's playing somebody from 1920 and it's completely taking me out of it whereas you have a face that scans in any period of time so I think you get cast a lot of period stuff and what happens to women in the past they go die I mean it's still treacherous out here and it's 2025 so you're like woman in the past I remember someone asking me actually they were like you remember the present day ooh

45:36nearly okay attempts there have been attempts but you know what someone asked me once they were like oh if you were because kind of linked to the kind of period thing right of going if there was any time in history where would you go back to i thought okay i'm not gonna lie there are times where i'd like to go back for a day with a guaranteed pass that i'm coming back now so i can honestly just raid shops and buy like the boots that like and i want to be fully vaccinated first fully vaccinated go back shop a little bit and accidentally invest in apples that would be clever and and like do that but come back because my answer is always that's mental why would i go back to a time it's even more likely to just like no one will believe you everyone hates you you're being like it's just terrifying absolutely mental so yeah i do think maybe it's something to do with that it is i do die a lot but i don't like touch wood it's quite nice though to do a job where you don't yeah well you just keep on living keep on living what nice you're not like oh I wonder where that could have gone oh well do you know what I think after post remoray for Joey I love this because I'm just like signposting us with moments from Joey's life and then I'm getting equally mad stories from your life and you're like wow being an actor really is mental it's so weird that's one thing they did portray actually very beautifully is that it's a crazy crazy job it's a crazy crazy job yeah I think one of the most sort of heartbreaking moments because he has like what I really love about this show as well is that they, it's a sitcom, but they do have like season long story arcs with dramatic peaks and troughs, like Ross post-divorce and Rachel post, you know, Bloomingdale or whatever.

47:21They really do feel like arcs. And one of them is Joey post-Drake Ramore. Like what's he going to do? How's he going to secure his career? And finding out like how little that actually means in the world, that like being a soap opera star for a couple of weeks or whatever, or a season actually means nothing. and there's this episode where he's going on a PBS fundraiser. Oh, I love this episode. And it's one of those call-in things and he thinks he's hosting the whole show and he shows up in a tuxedo and then he's just like one of the people taking calls. Yeah. And I was like, that's very real.

47:55It's very real. It's very real. And we've all had moments, like in any kind of public facing thing where like you think you've had this like breakthrough moment where like I've hit a best setter list or I've won an award or I've done this or like whatever. And then you show up to like a bookshop event where three people have come and you're like, oh no, there is never a moment where you reach a level of career comfort. No, there were like, there were sort of, I'd say like four to five people who were just, oh, it's you. And they're really old. They're like, they're Celia Imri. It's Celia, it's Meryl, it's Julie Roberts and Clooney.

48:34It's just, it's wild. And I think like the fact that he turns up suited and booted and not late and not sort of, oh, give me my my thing or like, where's my. It's just more that he's so excited and he just assumes that he's going to be sort of for that night. Yeah. Like like tonight, Matthew, I will be hosting and that he kind of steps into that. But he he does it still with so much grace, which I think so many people just would not. um i remember reading a script and thinking oh okay oh very nice okay cool i mean i don't thank you very much but i don't she's quite young but i'll give it a go and then i went to the audition and i realized that i'd oh no not the mother not the mother not the mother no not quite but like for so many years it's been like you know you're you're the young thing you know the the princess who will fall in love with you know or whatever it is yeah and then you realize oh no that's been played by a 24 year old you idiot you're in your mid-30s wake up and then you're like oh but actually the other role way more complex way more interesting like much more exciting but there was this moment of going jesse humble yourself yeah you're of course they're not asking you to play the 24 year old that's been played by a very successful very beautiful young actor you're playing the other role but that you have these moments of peaks and troughs in like just as what it is to be an actor and there there are some funky moments actually when you realize oh you're going up for a role where yeah the person playing your daughter is four years younger than you which i've had once and i thought i was like guys this is you know thank you and i'll still go on tape i'd love to be employed but i do think this might be a tiny stretch question mark and then when you don't hear back you think okay not a stretch okay that's fine obviously like that's all within like i will say that in jest but like it's definitely very sweet like seeing him take these moments and then also not wanting isn't there an episode where he doesn't want to audition yeah he's saying to his agent he's like no he's auditioning for the part of himself yeah yeah yeah and he's like but how can i why am i auditioning to be his twin i was him and you know what fair enough fair play fair play I mean maybe if they were fraternal you could write it up to just not having like quite as much like similarities but bless him yeah it's a it's definitely a humbling job that's it like people like it's just anything that's creative whatsoever is just totally a beautiful life embroidered with tiny humiliations every single day all the time but I think personally I think you have to kind of be slightly obsessed with failure or the idea of something, basically things not working and being okay about it, whether it's immediate or over a little bit of time.

51:34Because if you don't want to be open to the idea of failing many times over, constantly auditioning, trying to find the route and trying to find the way or the new way that your brain can work, then then you basically want to stay the same which as an artist is not the way you create art you can't do the same thing over and over again because then you then you're a you're you're a printer you're you're literally an hp printer going copy paste copy paste it just you nothing is new right and so if you're doing that it's not the work but also that it does there are times where it hurts a lot more.

52:15But do you think, okay, my next question. Do you think in a way, so we know that from a craft point of view, Joey Tribbiani is not a quote unquote good actor, but in a way he's a good actor because he like, he keeps going. He has no neuroses whatsoever. And so he's not bringing dark energy into the room. No, magic. He's bringing very, like I can, like, so this is in a world as well, which I'm sure you're very nostalgic for. This is pre, the self tape this is people going into rooms with full of rooms that look exactly people exactly look like them waiting till their name is called humiliating myself and then going well you know what I'm gonna go wander around Topshop for an hour and maybe buy a hairband I can imagine there's something really beautiful about that of like going into a room full of strangers leaving it all on the floor and being like I don't know if that worked but now it's well who knows at least I got to talk to some human beings today about a script that I sat down and read and made notes about and got to feel what they were like and see how they work or like tap into their brain and then think, oh, I'd never thought about it like that.

53:19Let's give it another go. There's one audition episode I'm really fond of, which is where he is playing, he's up for a part where he plays like a dandy and he gets a man back because he wants to impress. He gets Rachel to dress him because he wants to seem really chic. I really love that shirt and tie combo he wears. He looks so good. He looks amazing. Yeah, he really does look great. He really looks great. and they all take the piss. Rachel's on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I like, it really holds up. It's one of the best looks. Honestly, every time I watch Friends with Gav in the room, he's always like, I need like an I seen on screen for just Joey Fitz because they're the same body type.

53:55Big. Heaven. Big little, big little guys. Big little guys. Yeah, the kind of thing of like going into an audition with fragments of the character, not as the character, you're not going in a suit and armor or whatever, but like you're, oh, he's a dandy, so I'm going to be a dandy as well it's so interesting i love i remember doing that quite a lot and i i did a screen test where i i took my it was for a pierre piece shock horror and i i went all the way over to l8 to do the screen test and i i brought with me crazy again gone i mean gone which environmentally probably good but um i loved it um and i i took with me my edwardian french wedding dress that i'd bought which i all pre-owned what why because i just this vintage shop that used to be on camden passage which i think doesn't exist anymore that that particular shop and i bought it in the sale and it was just um like a cotton and lace kind of dress like the kind of thing that you put over the top of something but anyway i just wore it and i they were like if you have something you know soft or like something to wear and i just turned up full period costume yes i did oh my god yes i did but i just thought like you know if i'm ever gonna go there if i'm ever gonna do it i might as well you know i might as well do it so my man bag worked but and that's a one example of one audition the rest of the time i'm like it's unisex sometimes it looks mad I mean I fully accept that I looked mad but I think that was kind of the essence of the character but the thing is is that I mean not to get too much away but having watched a lot of self-tapes myself recently when someone chooses to do something a bit memorable you know they're doing it to seem memorable but you do remember them I know does work might always work the way you want it to but you don't forget yeah I knew someone once went to an audition at the very end left and walked into a cupboard okay instead of the door and because of the type of audition it was they thought this is the kind of shit that this director will love so I'm going to stay in here for a bit and they stayed in there for a bit and then eventually walked out but then oh my god the chutzpah the chutzpah but then when I saw them I was like how did it go and they were like absolutely fucking awful I walked I left and walked into a cupboard and it sounds like something a sketch from a show It sounds like Joey would do.

56:27Yeah. And I found that incredibly funny. I don't think at the time they found it funny. But you know what? They got a callback. Well. I thought, well, look at you go. Sometimes just being memorable is enough. Just being memorable is enough. Don't know if they were any good, but walked into a cupboard and they got a callback. Doesn't sound like they got it. No, I don't think they did. But still, callback is a lot. It's a lot. I want us to talk more about Joey's theatrical career. Yes. And do you remember the plot of the play Boxing Day? Oh my God. This is a big play. This is the one where his co-star, this is the one also when he falls in love with his co-star.

57:07Yes. Big production, many episodes. Yeah. Three or four episode arc. It does go over quite a few. And then he's like the director's in love with her and it's the whole thing. Yeah. But I could not tell you anything about the play other than two things. One, the woman is dressed seemingly the entire time from the bits that you see in a night robe. Yeah. And then at the end, it seems that the story concludes with Joey's character, who's... Oh, what's his name? Vic. Vic! Where are you going, Vic? Where are you going? and that he these sort of steps from I'm taking it some kind of spaceship come down through the ceiling of the apartment and he heads off into space where he will come back in hundreds of years time ageless because of course let's face it it is still the 90s when they're making this show so this woman will be dead but he will have not aged a day will not have aged a day and tell your great great great granddaughter to look me up Because I'm going to want to meet her.

58:20Oh my God. Perfections. You can just imagine also the writers having so much fun of going, what could be, what's one of the worst? If we're only seeing moments of this, what tiny story can we tell? How can we confirm to our audience watching this that this play is in fact as bad as the reviews say it is after the fact? Because they're all there after the thing and they say that it's not the worst thing. yeah anyway it's like the director is so pretentious he's awful the name of the play Boxing Day we're like okay this sounds like it's like a David Mamet situation or whatever Kate is this like very proper actress the scenes that we see in this three or four episode arc is like very like revolutionary road like marriage drama like I look at you nothing I kiss you nothing and it's like and like you find out about the reviews and you're like oh maybe people don't like it just because it's like hackneyed and over the top and a bit melodramatic.

59:17But no, the reason people don't like it is because there's a space for the end for no reason. In what would have been a very expensive rigging. Yes. I love how so often you can just also, like I was just saying, to see, you can imagine the writers going, oh, that's so fun. Can we please write that? Because we can't go and write a play right now because we're writing this huge, very long running TV show. Our background is in being playwrights. And playwrights. And living in New York. And seeing loads of terrible plays. The way... Ten bad plays. And then you'll see one play that will stay with you.

59:55And completely shifts the way that you think about art. But you've got to see those ten bad plays. You've got to go see those ten bad plays, baby. I mean, this is not a Joey Tribbiani production. But on the episode where we find out that the way in which Joey learns to manage with grace. the fact that he is a famous soap opera actor who's best friends with the same people that he knows, has known for years, and he adores them. But he also learned that he can't mix them with his famous friends. These are work friends. And so we find out that every year he has an incredibly chic party on the roof.

1:00:24Yes, and no one knows. And nobody knows. And we cover it in detail in another episode. But he sends them all to a play, which is a one-woman show called Why Don't You Like Me? Chapter one, my first period. also isn't that the actor brilliant actor who who plays Sophie in Marvelous Mrs. Maisel it could be I think it might be I watched that episode the other night it could be wow chapter one my first period and it's everyone else has gotten the memo about the party and Chandler's just left there alone in the front row oh yeah and he doesn't mix his friends his actor friends with them because they all freak out and they want to yeah they're all like Rachel's trying to date one of them Having seen him carry on at that party, I'm like, Joey, you'd made the right call.

1:01:13You were not supposed to mix these people. Well done, babe. He has his professional connections and then... Yeah. Let's talk about the Vegas arc, which I just watched the other night and is so kind of heartbreaking. It's really heartbreaking. And also so funny because it's all that section where they've got like moustaches on and they get married. It's so good. It's delicious. It's delicious, but I can see they wanted to get them to Vegas because it's always fun to bring them somewhere. And clearly they had so much luck with bringing them to the UK. They were bringing them to London and they were like, oh, then it became the kind of show where they send them places.

1:01:47And it still works. It still works. I mean, I feel like the later seasons, I don't think it's controversial to say, it doesn't feel exciting because they are pairing off more. But those them going away episodes still have so much excitement to them. and that the the reason that they send them away is because joey gets his quote-unquote big break because he's going to be the lead in a movie and everyone's like wow amazing joe and here's like the trickles of him and this is like so as well having any kind of friend in the arts is like the trickling of information when you slowly realize that what you thought was the house of bricks is a house of straw for them and the house of straw is on fire and you're like oh i just have to keep being happy for you through this terrible plan.

1:02:27And so it's like, first he says the plot of the movie and it's just like, it's like terrible. I meet this girl and then I go and try and find her because I'm in love with her. And then someone opens the door and says, she's been dead for 20 years. And he just keeps on repeating that. He's like, have you heard the plot of the film? How could this not work? It's amazing. And then they find out that and Chandler's like, oh, I'll drive to Vegas with you and we'll take Phoebe's cab and it'll be great he's like are they putting us up on a hotel room and Joey's like no I thought I'd stay in your hotel room and Chandler's like what he's like yeah the production isn't putting us up and they're like oh no no they have no money they're gonna pay me 10 % of what they make and Chandler's like oh no oh no and then they get into the car and you know they do that game and Chandler admits that he doesn't think it's gonna be Joey's big break and then Joey throws him out of the car because his feeling is so hurt and then he gets there and it's isn't there a shot in the desert and he gets there and like all the trailers are like driving away and it's just the plug has been pulled and it's like a real needle drop moment as well it's like they go they've been through the desert with a horse with no rain that song yeah and then it goes I think it goes into another episode and the next time you see him because he doesn't come home it's really cinematic he's like I can't bear it he just he's like no I'm going to stay here and just for a bit until I get my head around it because he still hopes the production will start up again it might just start back up again so he's like okay well I'll make myself available that's what it really sings to is that you make yourself available you think okay well I won't I won't book a holiday because if I if I do go away or if I tell my friend I can definitely make her wedding you know if I do that I might not get if I get a job I'm not going to be able to do the job or like you know and you sort of weirdly put your life on hold early doors you put loads of things on hold you're just like no no i need to be available i can't do anything in my real life because if i get a job i need to just be like yes and then jump on it and just do it and be available and then obviously as you get older you're like okay like i missed a couple of friends weddings and like a christening or two and stuff like that early doors where i'm like i'm never doing that again i'd be like if there is any world in which i could have from this hour to this hour off to go to my best friend's wedding please please please can I go I once went like through the night to get somewhere to the wedding slept in the car on the way there to the wedding and then got picked up at three in the morning did not go to sleep slept in the car went all the way back to Wales to film on the Sunday to like do a job but like it's like this moment where he's like don't go home stay here keep the dream alive just make sure you're available well, don't do anything and don't tell anyone what's really happening.

1:05:19And that makes me really sad that he just, and that's where his pride, I think, you know, because he's proud that he got this big thing and it means the frickin' world when you think it's going to change your life. And then if it falls apart or it, and you do this thing also as an actor that you start to, when you fall in love with something and you start reading it and then you're like, oh, I can see it, I can see it in my brain. Oh my God, I really know this character. this character's like me and I can move to this country or to this city and then maybe learn Italian and it feels like falling in love doesn't it yeah you start fantasizing about this whole world and then you'll get to do the thing you love with the script that you think is amazing even if you're delusional and it is terrible but you just start imagining being able to do the thing and when it disappears that's when it's brutal because you have to go okay so that won't be where I am in in in March no I'll be here sitting and waiting for the number eight bus in the rain going why is it cancelled again it's get a line bike and just get wet it's fine it's like yeah you have to just sort of live in this double life of like it it is the same with writings I've had situations where I've been like put up for screenwriting massive adaptations of books I adore and I've been like I've like I planned the whole thing out like oh my god and we're going to open on this and we're going to cast this person it's going to be amazing and like god they have so much budget and then those opportunities simply just go away and sometimes they don't even get made and it's not even they pick somebody else they just simply evaporate and go away and you have to live in this sort of double life where it's like in order to do your craft properly and well you have to have this bottomless enthusiasm which I think you and I are very good at of being like very gung ho and like do you know what we'll put on a show in the bar and it's going to be all great come on let's keep going for the love of God.

1:07:11Exactly. But at the same time you have to have such a light hold on it and be like that didn't work out? Fine. Okay fine. Never wanted it. Never liked it. Never cared. Absolutely fine. It's going to be okay. It's very hard. It's like a psychological zen say. It makes me really understand why so many actors and people in the entertainment industry in general they get into horoscopes and superstitions and everything because as I'm sure you would tell me Just burning some sage. Right. The trick to getting a job is making some plans. Right? Yeah. Every actor I know tells me it's like oh I didn't think I was going to get something so I like booked a holiday to Barbados and then the next day I got some huge thing yes like it's a weird superstition right at the moment where you go you know what this is it I think I'm done I think I'm actually done yeah like if it's not this I'm over it and then they're like do you want to go to Broadway you're like yes I knew it and it's always at this very wild breaking point I'm sure for many people it isn't but it just it does feel When it comes, you hold on to it with your entire freaking heart.

1:08:10But also you have to just let go of something and not think about what could have been. And then have the grace and the sort of openness to them when that thing, say if it does happen, you go and watch that person in that play. Or you go and see the film and you celebrate the thing that it is that you loved anyway, even if it's not you. you know it's kind of like I don't know sort of like great loves that actually you're like I just hope you're happy that'd be nice but it's sometimes really hard and you're like you know what I don't think I'm ever going to watch that film I got Barrett I got Barrett poor Joey all his friends come to find him he has to work in Cedar's Palace as a gladiator but they do find him and they tell him it's okay and he can come home but oh my god what I love about this whole segment it does feel like again these arcs they really do sort of are very satisfying and they pay off in ways that are so unbelievably strange and so funny.

1:09:05Where it's like, he's hit this low point. His friends have realised that everything's fallen apart. He has no future as an actor. He's turning 30. He doesn't know what he's going to do. But it's okay because he found his identical hand twin. On the roulette table in Vegas. This hand is my hand. This hand is your hand. No, wait, that's mine. The thing is, it's so funny. It's so iconic. It's mad. I don't know how the fuck they came up with it. But like everything really funny and mental and great. It's like up there with the kind of the Monty Python cartoon foot. The kind of moment. That's how stupid it is.

1:09:43It's so stupid. But it gets to something quite real, which is that moment of desperation where you're like. I just need an in. If I can get an in, if I can just make a splash of being that guy who has a hand that looks like this other guy's hand. Like who can tell? Then maybe the jobs will just start flowing and I'll get. But, you know, you will stand there and get a real award and be able to say thank you to all the people who's loved. The Identical Hand Award. It's so heartbreaking because as well. So, you know, as a writer, you have these moments where you're on the bleeding edge of desperation, both financially and creatively.

1:10:16And it feels like nobody wants to hire you and blah, blah. And so you're just casting around and you're like, what if I have a sub? Everyone should hire you, by the way. Thank you. You're incredible. Thank you. She's booked. But you're like, what if I start a sub stack? What if I wrote into Vogue and asked them for a column? but you are always in the driver's seat even if you are desperate and no one wants to fucking tow your car or whatever you still are in the driver's seat of your own opportunities if you're an actor you are not in the driver's seat that's why you are subject to fate and whims and that's why you are superstitious and all this kind of stuff so you're just like looking at a guy's hand and being like his hand is a bit like my hand is that anything?

1:10:50Is that a thing? Could this be a thing? I love it so much and also it's so funny because talking about Friends Who Are Lens and Joey being an actor and all this stuff is, like, you see, there's also, there is this side that I know we've touched on, but just that there's a group of actors doing this thing and this is, like, years into running and they can now work together so well that this show does work for a couple of episodes outside of this apartment. But also, they were all so brilliant at their job, so brilliant at their job that they could also do episodes, like the episode, the one where no one's ready.

1:11:26Yes. And it all, it just, it's all in that apartment. One room. You don't follow into bedrooms. People go into bedrooms and then they come back out. And that this sort of beat and like whole world happens in this one apartment. And I just think it's so, it's so delicious that that, like that it can work both those ways. And that all of them have their characters and their whole sort of world can exist in one room. Yeah. And they're coming in with all these stories. and that we can know so much about the outside world. We can know so much about, you know, Ross and the museum and all this stuff that we can pull in all this context and history.

1:12:04And the world building. World building is everything that... That it can exist there and you can take it outside and put it somewhere else. Yeah. I'm just so happy that those actors got to do that. It's so cool. It's so cool. And I'm sure they're all sick of talking about it. I'm sure. But I'm not. Listening to all those interviews I've been listening to, it's like they're all just like, now I guess I'll talk about Friends because I know it's what everyone wants from me. and that must be difficult but also what a fucking blessing what a blessing but also I think sort of now it's maybe long enough that they you know like some of them have kids and their kids are sort of referencing it or that it's kind of come back around and that maybe you need this you need space and then you go oh that was special yeah or like you know with Matthew Perry passing away that it's when something wild and unthinkable happens that you go, oh, it was really...

1:12:57I'm not saying that you need, like, immense tragedy to replace an experience, but sometimes a little bit of space between the madness of experiencing it, and I'm sure you're, like, your world turning upside down in a way that we just can't even remotely imagine, and, like, being that famous. But then also for it to still be relevant, people love it so much, there must be this kind of full-circle moment of going, oh, I did do something that people still really love. And that's a magic thing to leave behind. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And how proud to be. I don't know. I sometimes look at my younger self and go, I didn't know what I was doing.

1:13:32But if anyone, I sort of always sort of think, I don't mind if people know me from something I did a very long time ago because all I was trying to do was do something I love. And if anyone can remember that or if they liked it or think, isn't that sort of the point? not for someone to recognise you I mean for someone to have gone I really remember that because I have that in spades knowing if I saw certain people or met them or songs that changed my life or books that completely rejigged my brain that's what it is it's the function of television as well they're in your living room right and they're present for once a week every week and the way that you have been in your career as well you're present for people's lives in a way that you are not with other kind of culture.

1:14:18And I guess the further I get into doing the series as well, the more I'm thinking about like how much of the content we're all ingesting is sort of junk food and like so much of sort of like being sent like a hilariously specific TikTok. And that is like so, you know, like, oh my God, I feel like this person's reading my brain because it's so specific. And it's just for me. It's me and my little rectangle phone. There's a joy that comes from that, but it's just, it's a junk food joy that is incomparable to the comfort food joy of this kind of big general soup that everybody you know has seen almost all of.

1:15:02And you can text any of your friends in any country and just be like, any quote or whatever, it's a moo point. It's a cow's opinion. It doesn't matter. and like the fact that you can like bond with people on that level the fact that you know you know that you can come to it and every everything about it from the rhythm of the speech to the grade of the color of the screen is going to just hold you in a way those early series oh like the grip that has on me from having i just have random videos like from certain series like from the first couple or something random ones i think we just got them in the bargain bin at blockbuster and bought them and the fact that yeah like the certain generation of people and i'm sure like Like it's sort of stretching and, but you know, at the time we were just watching this thing was once a week and you kind of watch this thing on TV, that you just all sort of, it shaped a certain part and that it's kind of how rare that something exists that kind of will just stay with you and will always you can come back to and it sort of holds you in a new way because you're not who you were at like 11, but also somehow holds you, the 11 year old in you.

1:16:08and that you can have all of that in one thing. That's so rare. That's so rare. That's really beautifully put. I think it's... And also there's so much emphasis on... To be an artist, everything must be of a certain buzzy calibre. But some of the most influential parts of how we are and the way that we sort of interact with ourselves or want to become whatever it is sometimes can be influenced by a sitcom, by something being allowed to be funny, some of which holds up, some of which doesn't. But something that was trying to just be a bit joyful once a week for the sake of kind of joy. And that's so rare and it's not often seen.

1:16:51And the fact that it's still there is, I just, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. I was like, sometimes, you know, I haven't seen that very fancy new movie, but I have spent the last three days making biscuits and re-watching Friends. and repeating lines back to myself. It won't make you a worse person. No. You know what I mean? It really won't. It really won't. I'm like, come on. Life is long. Three watch friends. Jessie, we got to wrap this up. I love it. I love it so much. Thank you so much. I wish you a Japanese commercial for Itchy Bound for Men in your future. Oh my God, me too. That'd be fantastic.

1:17:28Okay, I have to ask. Of all of Joey's roles, which one would you most like to play? Of everything. We didn't even mention Mac and Cheese. Oh my God. We kind of did it at the beginning. Of all the jobs that Joey does, I think I would most like to do... I want to do the noodle soup with the kid, just to see if I can get the line right. And also, do you think that you'd get paid in soup? I'm not asking him to be paid in soup, but maybe just like an advert. You know what? The advert for... Loads of people do this now, but you just get an advert that no one sort of... Like, no one in your friend circle will ever see, but somehow it's there.

1:18:09And just like, you know, like, oh, okay, great. I can... Didn't you have a clean and clear advert? I did have a clean and clear advert when I was younger, and I do not know where it is, and I'm not going to lie, I have searched for it. Did you have to, like, do that thing where you have to squeeze an imaginary spark? Yes, I had a black head in the corner of my nose, and I was like, thing is, I actually do. And they were like, we'll actually block that out and put out, like, a cute one. Put it in a new black head? Like a new, like, you know, one that doesn't look... Anyway, there you go. And that's Gabby Little Baby.

1:18:34Jessie thank you for joining us today I love you I love you too Bye