Friends Thru A Lens: Weddings with Kate Young

0:06Hello and welcome to Friends Through a Lens, the podcast where I, Kowonga Dennehu, talk about the aspects of the show Friends through a specific lens with one of my real-life friends. And today we're talking about the weddings of Friends with former wedding caterer and my friend, Kate Young. Hello. Who wants to hear me say the word friend again? That was really good. That was really good. Very satisfying rhyming pattern. I loved it. It was great. Kate, I am shaking with excitement. The adrenaline is coursing through my body because, I mean, this always feels the same after you know whenever I do kind of a little mini series on the podcast um but this one is like quite quite different right because um you like we started talking you and I about how we'd love to bring your sort of former wedding caterer expertise to a podcast episode we've already done one about weddings we've done two about weddings before yes and then we stumbled on friends because you know a ton about friends it is true that I know it's about to become really clear and then I was like oh how good would it be if we did a whole mini series of podcast where I look at friends through the expertise of different people in my life and what is so nice is the knowledge that I'm going to listen to the shit out of every other episode and it's going to be so good like I'm great I'm so happy to be here recording today I also cannot wait for every other episode you're the flagship episode I'm really excited I'm really excited weddings are a big deal.

1:33Flagship events. Before we go any further, let's talk a bit about your expertise in this area. I have not been married. So I'm coming to this as very much from either a guest or very much involved staff member of weddings. I have catered, I think Liv and I counted it up, and I think I've catered 31 weddings over the past, I guess, decade. I did my, it's actually, it is summer 2015 that I did my first one and it's now summer 25, well, it's autumn, but like, yeah, so it's been 10 years. It's interesting because when you say like 31, it doesn't sound like that many. No, it doesn't, does it? But then I really put that through my head of how much prep goes into every wedding I've ever been to.

2:21Even weddings that I am not in, like, I don't have a role in. Oh, sure. it's still a week of prep yes like adding it all together it's like how are we getting there how are we renting the car when I think about feeding sort of like 60 to 160 people and it's the kind of the magic thing of you have a real relationship with people whose weddings you cater so some of them we met like relatively you know close to the wedding date either they had found a venue it was free and we were free and it was fine and we just like ran with it but some of those couples we'd had a relationship with for sort of 18 months before by the time we were catering their wedding they'd come to my house or Liv's house um Liv is my catering partner um and they'd come to our house and we'd fed them dinner and we'd got notes from them about things that they liked and things they didn't and things they would prefer or things they wanted to change and then we're in touch with them through the whole thing and we we essentially all of the weddings that we did were dry hire events yes is a term that I know we have discussed in the past which is essentially you arrive into a field or a community hall or a you know a space somewhere that is not set up with a professional kitchen already yeah it's not set up with necessarily a bar or anything else that's being run and you arrive and you build a kitchen and like building a set for a tv show exactly so you are you're very involved because you're not just rocking up on the day with food that you've prepared you're kind of having a big conversation with them about where the running water is going to come from and what the generator needs that you have are and how how much their friends drink and how enthusiastic they're going to be about wine verse beer verse spirits like all of that was stuff that we were doing so you were really involved in all of these big events gosh that is so much and yeah i thought because yeah because you're an independent caterer it's not like you're the plug-in and play for a hotel or something exactly so anyone who's coming to you yes has a very specific idea for their wedding or specific location yeah so like you're you're not like somebody who's like we're not doing the same meal at every wedding we never did the same menu twice we are like consulting with people and talking to them about exactly what they want I've never been to a wedding and not cried and that does include the ones where I'm kind of really up against it really panicked about the thing that we have to do in about 15 minutes time if the speeches are happening or there's a moment outside that you catch between the bride and the groom or like there's just there's so many different bits that have just made me cry over the years and I I'm eternally moved by weddings I am such a fan of a wedding yeah I'm a big shill for love and romantic love I love that you're saying this because I've noticed this on you know sort of comedians tiktoks and things that have and like recordings of comedy podcasts that have come my way recently where people are like let's just all admit going to a wedding fucking sucks and it's It's so expensive.

5:07I was like, that is such a mid-twenties tank. It really is. By the time you're in your thirties, the amount of occasions you have when your pals are all together are so rare. Yeah, totally. People aren't like necessarily convening for birthday parties anymore. People live in different places now. Of course. And it's such a joy to like all be together to have this one thing to focus on as a gang. And there's such sort of narratively important moments in all of our lives for friend groups. and like so much law and and you know sense of of community and sense of like who we are as a gang comes from those big times that you go yeah to another country or to the same country or to a big house or to a field or to a you know a big hall or a church or wherever you're going there is something about all gathering there and then spending a day just being like let's revel in how much we all love each other totally and I think um I feel particularly lucky because I don't know I don't know, lucky, it's just the circumstance that it is, because all of my friends tend to be in the arts, they've all therefore gotten married in their mid to late 30s.

6:07Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so there's a kind of, it's less chances for, you know, interpersonal petitions. There's always some at a wedding. Yeah. But in terms of like, you didn't choose the right colour for the bridesmaid's dress and now I'm mad at you kind of thing, that stuff isn't happening anymore. Yeah, everyone's just really thrilled to be there and really in love with each other. And we're also the part of life where like, hard things are beginning to happen. and like people's careers getting more challenging, people's parents are going to get ill, that kind of stuff. People are having kids and like navigating that alongside their work and it is just...

6:36It's hard. It's tricky. It can be very tricky, you know. Different levels are tricky for different people, but whatever. But like therefore having an event that is centered around optimism is really important. It's just a real like mark of hope and joy and future like success together. Yeah. And that's really nice. Love a wedding. Love a wedding. So we know about your relationship to weddings. Yes. What is your relationship to friends? I love network television. I was telling you this right before we started recording. I grew up in a very TV household. I'm a big books person. I read a lot of books.

7:10I write books. That is what I do. And I think my public persona is very, she reads all the time. And what is actually true is I watch a lot of television. Television is my jam. I love it. I love it. This, sorry to interrupt, but this sort of like thing that's out there about people who were bookish kids being like the thing they've all this kind of matilda sort of like oh alone under an apple tree reading a book it's like no the kids who are readers are the kids who didn't like what was on tv at that hour at that hour and we're like i must go find something we're watching wrestling i'm going upstairs and reading there's only one tv in the house and it's not good yeah it's so that yeah it's not like the tv child and the books child are not diametrically opposed time actually opposed people story story baby that is very much my feeling on it and i particularly love and have always loved like patterns and systems and numbers and so what i love is network television i love like particularly american network television is 24 episodes in a season i love knowing that the thanksgiving episode of friends is going to be like about episode eight or nine because it's that time it will have come out in november that's when we're that's what we're aiming for I know that the end of season is going to be some big moment and some big event because they need you to come back in September I love the pattern and the flow of it and even though the seasons were different in Australia so our summer was when their winter was yeah it is it's still a thing where I just feel like I really followed people and this is true of Friends and lots of other network TV that I watched and loved but I had a really great relationship with Friends I probably started watching, I was trying to think the other day where I came in at and what is mad is that there's just no way my brain will let me acknowledge a time when I didn't know the entire plot of the show.

8:52But I know that I probably started watching it about season four or five because that would have been the age that I was watching it at my dad's. But my sister and I, there's a chain called Blockbuster Video. Was that here as well? Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was here. I think Blockbuster was a global brand. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Blockbuster Video did$1 Wednesdays in Australia and Luce and I would go and we would get an entire season of Friends and for that week we would watch. God, I remember those VHS cassettes so well. So I must have filled in the gaps over the years, but certainly there feels as though there has never been a time that I didn't know the entire plot of the ten seasons.

9:31It has very much been present in my life for good and it is a thing that I still will happily watch any day, any time with any pal. And I watch it knowing like, I don't think it's particularly interesting to talk about the ways in which it's dated or aged. I'm not here for a massive conversation about that. Apart from, I think we will probably address some aspects of... Yes, as they're relevant to these weddings. As they're relevant to these weddings. But like on the whole, I think it is both superbly written, incredibly funny beautifully performed and there is no other show where I more want to be on set hanging out with those people they looked like they had fun together yeah and that they were really delighting in each other both as characters and as actors and that is a joy to watch and it's chemistry that I just don't think has ever been repeated I think I really agree I really agree and like I know the cool thing to be it's cooler to be into Seinfeld you know it's even cooler to be into 30 Rock and I love those shows I love them but very nothing has my sitcom heart like Friends has it and I love a lot of because I'm the exact same as you yeah that like um the kind of the repetition and the familiarity of sitcom relationships really does I feel very emotional about it you know and uh something uh Taffy Ackner said recently on the podcast about um And just like that, where she was defending and just like that, where she said, you know, obviously there are parts of it that are bad.

11:01But she was like, you can't make old friends. Such a good thing to say. It's so true. True. Because that thing of like, your TV is heaving. Yes. With charming, well-written, well-acted, beautiful friendships that they want to show you exactly what they, you know, whatever. and they are one season or they are two seasons and then they are cancelled or they are deleted off the streamer because of her tax write-off or whatever and like replicating that relationship with TV characters where you know them for a decade the way we have with Frasier the way we have with Parks and Rec all these things is like we didn't realise how difficult a thing that is to replicate when we threw it away you know and we have kind of threw it away I know we have things like Abbott Elementary and stuff but because of the way TV works now it's never going to have the international spread the depth of relationship because there are just too many things begging for and appointment viewing just isn't a thing anymore and it really was with friends like I remember being at school and having to have watched it on TV the night before and if we were out for some reason we'd put it on VHS we'd set the VCR to record it I'd be behind on the conversation like it was truly water cooler in the schoolyard conversation it was the only thing that it was on a Monday night in Ireland and it was the only thing that me and my brother were allowed to stay up past nine for when we were really small like it was such a family event and like when I think about watching Friends I just think about the sort of that coziness of the family living room and the smell of my mum's ironing starch and sort of tea and scones and sort of like a little snack before bed and it's just everything about it is so deeply in like the coziest memories of my childhood you know yeah it's really me and my sister on a sofa together because we were either at my dad's or at my mum's and we were allowed to watch at my dad's about a year earlier I think my mom was a bit more like I'm just gonna see what this is and whether it's appropriate yeah you'd be watching um but my dad was like yeah no this this makes sense we're watching it and we're laughing and it was a thing we all watched together as a family yeah and it's me and my sister sitting in front of the sofa yeah like heads against the back of the sofa and dad and Cheryl on the sofa and like it's a it was a real family thing yeah it was really nice and and it's still a thing that when my sister and I are sort of together and doing a thing we'll often like chuck on an episode while we're getting ready for something or whatever it's like a thing that we've really kept as a as a language totally and it remains a lot i think that and the simpsons yeah big time the simpsons foundational linguistic codes of millennial life you know it's that thing where you just realize that all so many of the things that we all say in the references we have and the things that we share are yeah there's something ella always says because she she was the child under the apple tree wearing with her book and her parents didn't have a tv until she was like 12 or something um and she was like i finally watched the simpsons and i found out my friends aren't as funny as i thought they just got good memories i don't watch the same thing 19 times okay so as far as our approach today yes we're not just talking about the weddings of friends we are ranking the weddings of friends and we have sat in this room and we have watched all of these episodes together we have um and we have a numerical scoring process.

14:11We do. This won't be the same for every episode of Friends Through a Lens, but Kate really likes numbers. I love numbers. I really do. Before we get into it, I would like you to talk us through our scoring system. So our scoring system is thus. We have gone in on three categories that have all been equally weighted. So FOMO, how much do you, specifically, you and I wish to be there? Yes. This is our weddings that we don't want to be missing. Yes. All those scenes of parties and friends where they just have dial-a-friends, they just have random people who are like chucked in there. Imagine you are one of those chucked-in randos.

14:42One of the chucked-in randos. How much do you want to be at this wedding? The FOMO score. The FOMO score. The style points. So style points is a very visual language. So we're talking outfits, we're talking the room, we're talking the energy of the guests, we're talking like what's happening in the aesthetics of the wedding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how much do we enjoy that? Yes, or even how much do we, even though it's not our taste yes how much is it time together yeah and and also how much it does it is it perhaps reflective of the time yes because some of the the weddings have perhaps dated but they feel well weddings are the things that date the most they date the most they're very trend they it's impossible to get out of the sort of you know capitalist construct of like the wedding industrial complex is a thing for a reason there's a a huge sort of groundswell of pushing you towards a certain kind of wedding or a certain kind of vibe or a certain kind of attitude and it's it's because that's what's on offer at the time and you can step outside of that but like but even if you say if you're like you want you you don't want a hotel ballroom that means you want some kind of countryside thing and then that silos you into fairy lights hay bales like you know that i said it's very difficult to get out of these um very strict silos of different kinds of wedding you can have they're basically for yeah beach field also hotel yeah and for most people it's a thing they're only gonna do once and they want to do it they certainly are planning it hoping that they're only going to do it once yeah and so they want to do it right and with the vision in mind that they've had for that particular space or yeah and I think yeah if if you had a wedding every year like you had a birthday you'd go with loads of different themes yeah and you'd go with loads of different styles but mostly mostly you want to go with what works and also what like yeah what works for you and for your family and your friends and everybody else and what space you can imagine best hanging out with all of them right and something else that's interesting about wedding trends is that I feel like they were something that used to move far slower wedding trends like I think there's there's a real 20 years of cinema and television where you could turn it on if it's in britain you were seeing a very specific thing yeah um and you know it would be like you know church uh puffiness it's four weddings exactly and and i feel like that trend those that looked like that for 20 years and then with the advent of the internet and with more online shopping and all these things just it sort of it changed far quicker yeah it feels like people are already making fun of millennial barn weddings from seven years ago Yeah, right?

17:21It is dating. So style is a thing that we thought was important to discuss. And the final one is narrative because this is a sitcom. And we wanted to talk about the narrative weight and importance of these episodes. And what they sort of offer in the larger story of Friends. The story of Rachel, a woman who comes to New York. Yeah. And all the people she starts hanging out. a girl runs out on her wedding yep and takes solace in her abandoned friend from school and then immerses herself into that group and begins her sort of hero's journey from like spoiled Long Island princess to true waitress to fashion yeah to successful woman with baby and man they are all the main character but I feel like it was sold on the premise of okay it's a show about six friends but what else what's the engine and like well there's Rachel there's Rachel she's run out of her wedding yeah yeah yeah exactly Yeah, they're all the main character, but it is her framing.

18:21The story is the sort of 10 series arc narrative is her beginning and end. And so, yes, they can all be the main character, but she is definitely the story driver. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Fascinating. Yeah, the shape of it would be different if it was Monica's story. Yeah. Like we'd come to the story at a different point, maybe when she moved to New York. we might like when she started being a chef or when she first got there yeah and maybe we're doing it from a different point if it's her officers or whatever else so true it's just it's a very subtle thing yeah it's like i would say few friends fans would disagree yeah yeah i think that it's it's and it's all down to david schwimmer for them being like yeah you wanted to pay us more in season three they were gonna pay him and jennifer aniston more and he was like let's all negotiate guys we're a team everything i've ever heard about david schwimmer has been so overwhelmingly positive.

19:11So positive. You know what I mean? What a guy. What a guy. Because he also pushed to have girlfriends of colour. Yeah. Famously. And there's the wage thing. But also, I have a friend who, after her book launch, they went to the Pink Chihuahua in Soho. You know that Mexican restaurant with the dance floor in the basement? And for some reason, David Schwimmer was there. Was there? I hope she's okay with me telling this story. I'm not saying her name. And they had a dance and she said he was the best dancer I have ever. And like, you know. Oh my God. That's such a nice thing to know of him. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

19:42My thing about David Schwimmer is that I will never stop being angry that nobody cast him in like a Buster Keaton biopic. Yeah. Wouldn't he be great? Yeah. Both the face and the physical acting. His physical comedy is so good. I am always thinking about the parallel universe where that happened. And I wrote it. Anyway, we have to spend time and space for that. But David, if you're out there. David, if you're out there. So we are going, so what we've done with those three categories is that we have given each of them a score out of 10 for each wedding. Yes. And then we have averaged those scores.

20:13And using those scores, we have then ranked them. We have now ranked the wedding. So this is not a subjective opinion. Correct. We are simply taking our findings. Yes. We're giving you the maths. Giving honest scores of them that we think we're an independent committee. We have no vested interests. No. And giving them all scores. Yes. You know, these are subjectively, bottom to top, worst to best weddings and friends. Worst to best weddings and friends. But before we get into that. Oh, yes. very important we have some honorable mentions yes because we are doing significant weddings there are a couple of weddings that circle the show yes that we don't really see a lot of or they aren't that important and those weddings are this is the honorable mentions category yes first of all we just mentioned it episode one the pilot the pilot Rachel running out on her own wedding Rachel's stunning dress stunning stunning stunning she looks so beautiful she looks so so beautiful she sits in it with that damp hair for so long and it's so nice.

21:11And you really do feel like you were looking at a movie star. Oh yeah, big time. She is like absolutely luminous in it. Yeah, it's so good. And it's like - It fits her so beautifully. Yeah. Yeah, we were talking about it when we were watching it that it must, for a pilot, there's no way - It's so exquisite. Yeah, it's so exquisite and that they must have like got it from some other - Yeah. Some other show or some other like back lot collection of wedding dresses. but it looks like it should be Rachel's dress. It's so perfect. It's like a Grace Kelly. Yeah, it's gorgeous. It looks like it came from like a 1950s MGM sort of thing.

21:49And I think it has what every great wedding dress has. When I talk great wedding, I mean like I'm sure whatever you wore, you look beautiful or whatever. But in terms of like the, what we think of when we think wedding dresses, that they should look somewhere between a evening gown and architecture. Do you know what I mean? They should almost feel like they stand up on their own or something. Yeah, that they are a thing in their own right. Yes. and it's like it's got this like sort of stiffness to it but it's also so flattering yeah it's so flattering it's got a lace bodice it's so good it's beautiful big skirt like it's so it's a really it's a beautifully romantic dress and when she comes in it's so it's exactly what you want that moment to be because it's so surprising yeah it's so stunning it happens like within 30 seconds of the show happening and it's the whole screen exactly yeah she walks into that cafe and it is like touching everyone yes yes it's great it's such a lovely moment and then she's in it upstairs in the flat in the apartment it's so true that thing of like having this because you have them for a couple of minutes just on the couch and we get the tone of that they're just people who hang out all day kind of vibes and then you're right when she walks in it touches everyone in the way that wedding dresses do it sort of pulls focus in the way and as well because the coffee house is so brown and green it just pops really loudly perfect perfect we don't really know much about Barry and Rachel's wedding but we're going to talk about it soon so we'll just go past that.

23:09The other one also includes Rachel which is Rachel and Ross eloping in Vegas. Yes. Which, bit of fun. Bit of fun. And narratively important it's the end of season five and so it's halfway through their romantic narrative. Yes. Like in the first episode we know that Ross fancies her in the final episode she gets off the plane. Like the midpoint of that is them getting drunk and married in Vegas. Yes. Like in terms of the structure of the show I actually would argue that the emotional midpoint of it is when he says Rachel at the wedding yes but yes the midpoint is is this wedding in Vegas but it's hard to include in our list of five because you don't really see it you don't they're drunk and there is no reception and they're in there close from the plane yeah and they're very good and very funny and also a perfect fake out to have spent the entire episode pushing you towards maybe Chandler and Monica are going to get married today yeah and then actually no they're not going to get married what's happening is Ross and Rachel are going to get married and now we have a man who has been married three times and that becomes Ross's personality yeah it's really good it's great it's a really and I think what makes it really good as well is that they get married and then they immediately go their separate ways yes it's perfect it's a perfect shot so it's not like oh what if they sleep together and get back together no no no these people are so drunk they're both they're both vomiting different corners outside yeah yeah it's great is there anything else in the honorable mentions category the one with all the cheesecakes so yes there's an episode the episode that is more famously remembered for the cheesecakes is cousin franny's wedding uh monica and ross's cousin franny and monica has not been invited to the wedding um and is furious and goes as ross's plus one and is then obviously has slept with the groom and that is the reason that she's not been invited um but it it just feels like a wedding.

25:02It's another like just wedding in a ballroom kind of wedding. It's lots of round tables. It's like not a and it's not narratively important. It ends being like oh there's nothing going on here except you one day slept with the groom and this is a cousin you don't really see anymore. Yeah you're right that is remembered for the cheesecakes. Yeah it's a cheesecakes episode. And again all these episodes they're Rachel episodes. Rachel pulls focus always. Rachel pulls focus. She steals her wind. Okay so now that we've got all the throat clearing out of the way 25 minutes in um what is number five on the list guys number five on the list is monica and chandler's wedding monica and chandler's wedding which is season seven episode 23 and season seven episode 24 the one with monica and chandler's wedding we hate this we hate this wedding we hate this wedding okay i'm gonna begin with style come on first of all the fact that Monica does her own hair and makeup is so consistent like out of character so out of character so out of character she would obviously have a hair and makeup person yes she just like brings out her makeup bag on the kitchen table yeah day of I'm like babe what are you doing what are you doing to be fair they do that at Phoebe's as well it's like a thing that makes sense it does make sense but it's like Phoebe wouldn't have a makeup artist they're all just sitting around doing their makeup together at home on the kitchen table hilarious yeah why yeah um second of all her look oh yeah nothing goes together no the dress is basic and i think i actually so what year was this so this one was 2001 yeah and i actually do kind of remember this that like um post like obviously there was the four weddings princess diana um rachel's first wedding dress kind of thing that that whole the the meringue dress yes became a cultural punchline And then I do remember in the 2000s, there was a whole thing, very slimmed down dresses, like silk or satin, V-neck, ivory dresses that were supposed to be...

27:04Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like looking back on it now, I'm like, fucking boring. I'm sure they'll come back again. They are back in some ways. They are back in some ways, but yeah. Yeah, I think that it was a very dress of its time. Yes. And it's so funny now because when you look back on like your Princess Diana's wedding dress or Mariah Carey's wedding dress, you're like... I'm so, I guess that's just how tastes change and move around. But like, I'm so more attracted to that now. Because it's such a big fucking choice. I think that's it. You know? It just feels like if it's not in fashion anymore, the kind of, the big choice is something you can continue to admire.

27:39Yes. You can continue to go like, oh, that's a swing. That looks kind of extraordinary, even if it doesn't look particularly. Again, like architecture. Yeah, exactly. You know? But there's something about the sort of very simple v-neck satin dress. Yeah. that just when it's out of style is really out of style. So true. And then the styling of it. Yeah. Okay. The veil drives me mad. Yeah. Like veil, weird length. Doesn't go in her hair. Doesn't go in her hair properly. It was just like plumped on. I remember so clearly from the morning of my wedding after the hair lady was packing up and leaving.

28:15And I was like, you're going to put the veil in? She was like, no, that's your job. And I was like, what? And then me and Ella were just like, how do you do that if anyone's planning a wedding do a hair tutorial and do it with the veil yeah because like i had no fucking clue of course i was just like stuck the comb thing in there and it just fell out all day did you see me in that veil all day no you fucking didn't and i was really excited about that veil because it was gold um but anyway the um the veil has like you know how some veils have sort of pearls shot through it and they're beautiful it has about five pearls in it.

28:50It's not enough. It's not enough to make, it's like so a non-choice. Yeah. And then the necklace is this sort of yucky, silvery, it's too like thin. Yeah. But it's, again, it's like. It's too thin, but it's also too high on her neck. Yeah. And there's too much negative space around it between her breasts and the necklace. It's like wrong. Yeah. And her hair is just down. Yeah. It's down. And I think the V-neck silk form-fitting dress can look great with a very high structured structured bun bring the structure in somewhere the architecture yes the architecture and then like pin uh flowing down veil into the bun in the back or something it can look great yeah but it's just like heavy yeah and it's also like rachel and phoebe's dresses don't really fit them that they're they're awful dresses they cut really oddly it's that like bias cut like cut on the bias thing that we were doing a lot then but like they hang really oddly on both of these absolutely stunning women.

29:52Horrible colour palette. Yeah. This was a time as well when gold was very in, but like not like Versailles gold. It's sort of like kind of muted metallic-y kind of gold. And so it's always photographs on the kind of verge of sort of piss yellow and silver, you know? Yep. And everything on that set has been spray painted with that gold. And so it's every single shot is just like something that's like gold, but not gleaning. It's gleaming. It's just dull. Yes. And takes up a lot of space. And I remember we only watched, we didn't watch the kind of build up to the wedding. We watched just the wedding episodes.

30:26But I do recall that like, there's a lot of Monica wedding planning. Oh yes. She's gone crazy thing. But it's like, the way they talk about it, I don't think they say the plaza, but it's like kind of like that sort of level, isn't it? I think they go to this gallery opening. Yeah. Earlier in the season, or like after they're engaged, or maybe it's even before they're engaged. she goes to this event at some point and then goes I'm going to book this place oh yes she does book it when she's single she's with Chandler because she freaks out that he's going to hear it on the answering machine so I think they're living together but not engaged and he does she does book it, we know where it is but it might as well be it's nothing to the episode that it finally happens it's nothing to that and Monica is a people pleaser who is a person who is so much of her energy goes into staying thin.

31:23Yeah. Sad. As a character. Like narratively, that is true. Yeah. And she is such a people pleaser and such a sort of needs to know that everyone is looking at her and thinking that she's done life really well. Yeah. Because her mother's mean to her. Because her mother's mean to her because she's got so much complexity in her backstory that I just am not convinced that she knows what wedding she wants to have. She is the person who brings out a massive folder full of things that she's wanted since childhood and all of these decisions she's already made and wedding scenario A and wedding scenario B and this is what we can afford and this is how we're going to do it.

31:57And I think all of those are things that she thinks somebody else would want or thinks that she should want. Or someone said was classy. Or that somebody said was classy and is the right choice. So I'm just not convinced that she's having a good time. Yeah. And there's that brutal moment, like, narratively skipping ahead. Like, the invented drama in this wedding is that Chandler might bolt, which we know he's not going to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because he's not. He loves her and he's not, and they're not going to write that. They're not going to write Monica's wedding not happening. It's just not true.

32:31And also I bet in promo there were loads of shots of him at the – I'm sure. Of them at their wedding in the promotion of that episode. like not even the viewers then think that he's not going to go through with it totally and and so all that monica gets in that episode is everyone being afraid to tell her because of what she might do yeah that he's like having real feelings about the fact that his family is also incredibly complex and he's got this like tragic tricky yeah history of feeling unloved and like he doesn't know what family looks like they are two broken toys they're two broken toys and and nobody tells her that he's having those feelings yeah or struggling with that so she can't help him and the moment she finds out about it is when they are at the altar yeah and she hears that he bolted and she is having to like process her own like feelings of all of that while trying to do her vows with this man yeah yeah it's just awful it's it's not good it's not good so it's not good narratively it's not good stylistically um and i also think there's like there's the only sort of again payoff or drama that is real and we're gonna see more of later is that someone's pregnant yes first we think it's monica and then we think it's phoebe and then we find out it's rachel yeah and it's actually that bit is really well played it's so well played like the rachel rachel being pregnant and it's a beautiful moment but it is also rachel is the main character because the end End of that episode is not a picture of like Monica and Chandler kissing, having just got married.

34:07It's a camera zoom in on Rachel's face as the audience go, Oh fuck, it's Rachel. It's Rachel. Cause when Phoebe has gone, Oh, it's me. We know it's not her. So we're like, who must it be? Who must it be? And suddenly it's, we, we know as the audience because of Rachel's face. Oh, some of the best work from Jennifer Aniston. I mean, she's so good. She's so good. But like that moment where Phoebe says, Oh, Monica's pregnant and then she looks to Rachel and Rachel just like shakes her head. Just shakes her head just like, please don't. Please don't. I can't do this now. I can't do this now. It's that and then it's the next episode where Phoebe is like, oh, you're not pregnant.

34:46And reads the, deliberately reads the pregnancy test wrong just to be like, do you want to be pregnant? How do you feel about this? And Rachel being like, I'm actually quite sad. Yeah, yeah. I didn't know this was a thing I didn't want to lose, but I didn't want to lose it. And now I'm not pregnant. Yeah. And then she is. It's like the slow kind of like, where she's like so beautiful. That thing that Rachel does, like, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. And then she just like starts talking through tears. Oh, when someone talks through tears, that was great. And she's so good at it. I watched the tears on my couch.

35:14Me too. We were watching through tears. But she's so good at it. Yeah. She's so good. Jennifer Aniston is just so moving. Yeah, because she's like, she's so funny and she's so moving. We can forget that she's also one of the most gifted comic artists of her generation. and that she's great in comedy but then that she can also really pull off a moment of true deep sincere feeling of this woman in her mid-30s going we saw her at her birthday the year before being like oh but I really want to have kids and I want it to happen this way and I wanted to have known the guy for this long beforehand and this is how the structure of my life is going to go and this is her realizing that the structure of her life is not going to go that way that what she is doing is not being married and being you know being engaged for a couple of years first and then being married and then having a year before you get pregnant and then getting pregnant and she is instead doing it in this way and she really wants to do it she really wants that kid oh it's so beautiful and it's such a shame that the kid is never in it from then on i know so rarely in the show but they really understand how uninteresting babies are in this show yeah yeah ben is not interesting kids are not story no um but that thing that's the only sort of narratively interesting thing because the other thing that's happening this is so funny is um Joey can't make the wedding because he has this part in this movie with this famous famous British actor who's like a big deal yeah and he keeps spitting on him and they're not getting on well and then they sort of like fix that problem and then it's like the famous British actor is drunk is a sod yeah and he and like all that and you and I were watching this and we were like I think we were down on this episode because the styling mix is so mad yeah yeah and we were like this is not good this is like just it just doesn't work or something and we see too much of it if it was just the spitting it would be fine but it just keeps like it goes on for so long we have a lot of time with this guy who we're like no no and we were kind of theorising why it didn't work for us so much and we were like the thing is is that like he doesn't feel prestigious yeah he's just not very good he doesn't feel prestigious he feels like he's doing a fake English accent it feels like it wanders into Australian every now and then we weren't sure we just couldn't we didn't understand who this person was supposed to be standing in for?

37:25Like, is it Ethan Hawke? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or is it sort of like, you know, who would have been a big British actor at that time? I don't know, but. Early 2000s. Yeah. Like, is he a, is he a Hugh Grant? Yeah. Is he a man who came who's like, or a man who should be more serious now? Who is he? Who is he? Like, it just felt so broad and vague and we were like, this is a bad performance. And then when the episode was ending and the credits were coming up and it was like, so-and-so played by Gary Oldman. Gary Oldman one of the most famous actors of his generation and we instantly just had to be like yeah that is visibly Gary Oldman yeah that is true yeah I guess well famously he's a chameleon who's very hard to identify in roles sometimes but doesn't I just I've been watching Flo Norses I've seen him very recently true romance Batman you know he's in so much stuff so many iconic roles and this is not one of them not one of them it's so weird yeah it's so weirdly bad yeah but we spend a lot of time on that set yeah and it's boring it feels dull it's not yeah Joey's a really great character and a really interesting guy yeah but that chunk of time I'm like I don't have any time for it it's not very interesting yeah the spitting doesn't I don't love um yeah yeah so so that's what else is happening uh Chandler's slippy shoes Chandler's slippy shoes yeah that's shit also a moment for just I guess an acknowledgement of the ongoing transphobia in the show surrounding yes Chandler's dad yeah which the show can't seem to figure out or decide the identity of that character it's so the show cannot decide whether Chandler's quote unquote dad is his is like is like a drag queen a trans woman yep some drag queens are trans yeah yeah but like they just don't know what's going on there and they're like um do we ever even get what her name is like what is chandler's dad's name i mean her drag name is helena handbasket but i don't know i don't know whether she goes by helena or in her daily life yeah yeah exactly the pronouns are always yeah it's always man in a dress yep and like in a way that like i understand that we're coming at this from a 2025 lens where some of us know more about trans people now um but like i feel like there was still oh yeah a knowledge that at the very least even if you don't respect this person's identity that they are their pronouns are different they're not simply just a man like yeah and also you've got a woman playing this character like a cis woman is playing this woman it's so unkind to kathleen turner it's so unkind to the trans community and it's really uncomfortable it's a It's a real bum note.

40:19It just sits really badly. I think it can be funny that he is a trans dad. Sure. You know what I mean? And the thing is, the way they do it with Carol and Susan, which is like all the fun is that Ross is uncomfortable with this. This is the thing. If you decide as a writing room who that character is and give her a sense of real character and depth and autonomy, then Chandler being weird about it is the joke. Exactly. But at the moment it feels like we're supposed to also laugh at her. It's so unresearched as well. Oh God, yeah. If you have genuine hatred in your soul for trans people. Yeah. But I don't think they do.

40:57I think it's just laziness. It's just deep laziness and callousness. Yeah. That is not consistent with the show's tone at all. But it can be consistent with how it is about gay people and queer people, you know? Yeah. So that's a bummer. That's a bummer. But I think before we move on to another wedding. I think that the key the reason that this wedding ends up bottom for me is that the wedding feels very much like Monica as a kid showing her mother the kind of wedding that she could have and should have and is worthy of and it doesn't feel like them there doesn't feel like any moment of it that feels like rooted in either Chandler or Monica except that it's like we want the nicest wedding we can have in a very like mid interpretation of what nicest means and looks like oh god we know that which is many people's weddings right we know that the band is a band that chandler has feelings about yeah but they're good they're good but unfortunately he's got slippy shoes his only plot at the wedding is he has slippy shoes and he can't dance to the band that he loves yeah and so which is really sad it's really sad so all of this is just it does not feel like a real celebration of these two characters unlike i would say their engagement yes their engagement at the end of the season before where he is running around trying to keep a secret and trying to make it happen and he gets home and she set up all the candles and she tries to propose to him but can't so he has to propose to her like and they're both on their knees they're both on their knees i'm moved i'm like that is beautiful that they are those two broken toys that is beautiful these two people committing to each other and being like we're gonna make each other really happy and there is none of that yeah in this wedding and that is a crime that is a crime also can i first sorry last thing i'm gonna say about this wedding that bums me out it is filled with people and children yes everyone in the background is the oldest person i've ever seen it is unreal there's so every table when it's not like mona yeah or like and what we said was that it's very obvious that this is a wedding of people who have a very small group of friends they spend all their time with yeah and then friends of their parents and children of others and some colleagues and it's so like it's the thing is as much as i hate this wedding i think it is very true for the reasons you just yes yeah yeah it's so like it's very judy as well judy well you have to invite your father's golfing buddies exactly yeah yeah yeah it's all filled with people that monica's like i've not seen them since i was 12 yeah i don't even know if those scenes exist but those scenes exist in my head and that's fine like having lots of family at the wedding can be lovely so long as you also have lots of friends who you love and adore and i just think that they because we don't have the addition of another yeah friendship circle like we don't have what we have with phoebe and mike's wedding where you get mike's mates we don't have like emily's friends from the ross and emily wedding yes it's just chandler and monica who have the same small friendship group and mona and mona from work yeah like mona's a colleague yeah from the restaurant mona from the restaurant you know they've got these six friends they've got these six friends and then colleagues and extended family and elders and elders i will say i did say to my parents when i was planning my wedding i was like there is going to be an absolute limit on oldies i'm really sorry i don't care about these people and like i haven't been to like all the family weddings because we're a big family yeah they would always just invite my sister as like the diplomat yeah and so it's like i haven't been to any of these people so no cousins no uncles or whatever my dad was so mad and then i was told the morning after my wedding i was like they were like you made the right call there you go because it's like having a youthful wedding where everyone's dancing yeah better i'm not saying don't invite old people to your wedding but i'm saying don't be um kowtowed into inviting old strangers to your wedding yes exactly you're a dear aunties and uncles of course but like the golfing buddies it's a no yeah and also like am i got pressure but i do think that that changes if you've got if you're allowed to have a huge guest list if you're in a massive venue and it's full of people and it feels like and it feels like full of energy and full of all of that and full of all your friends crucially yeah then the more the merrier it's lovely but if you are like we're restricted to 120 i cannot have 20 of those people be your friends yeah your parents friends sorry so what our final number on that so our final numbers monica and chandler We don't want to be there.

45:27FOMO is two. FOMO two. FOMO two. No FOMO at all. You'd rather be anywhere else. Style, unfortunately, two. Style is two. Not least because the next day, Ross and Chandler go back with instant cameras and take a bunch of photos of what is, in inverted commas, the exact same wedding the next day. Same flowers, same band, same everything. It's a churn. It's not even Monica's dream. Like, it's her dream for so long, but it's a picture that somebody else has already created. Oh. Anyway. Roughy. So two for style and narratively, and this is mostly because Rachel's pregnant, six. It's a satisfying thing to see these two people who fell in love at a wedding get married.

46:09Yeah. But if I'm returning to my big feelings about Chandler and Monica, it's their engagement and not their marriage. Well said. And that gives us a score of? An average score. 3.33 recurring. 3.33 recurring for Chandler and Monica's wedding what is the next wedding on our list what is number four Barry and Mindy people are going to be screaming people are going to be mad Barry and Mindy beat Chandler and Monica they're not even main characters they're not even main characters neither of them neither of them we never see either of them again which is very important we'll get to in a minute but I think what's important about Barry and Mindy's wedding is that it was going to be the Rachel wedding yes right yes it is Rachel's wedding that she didn't have yes first of all style style okay is this my taste and is it dated no and yes but in a consistent fission the bridesmaids dress which is mental but it's actually on a realistic side of mental for all the time and you could definitely find that dress on dams and madder now if you didn't make a few tweaks and take out those bedazzling chess piece things but that colour is consistent through the wedding with the flowers with the table settings with everything else it's very clearly like that was the theme of the wedding yeah it's it's that's teal magnolia's line my colors are blush and bash um and uh mindy's dress is fucking underrated oh it's so good it's such a cunty but elegant dress yeah it's so so good because it's like this um mid-length it's kind of like knee length yeah just above me above knee above knee um but there are kind of floating panels coming off of this and then she has this great little hat.

47:48It's so good. She looks like sort of Jackie O meets showgirl. Yeah, yeah, and then a huge bustle of tulle that's like over the dress and not under it. She looks amazing. She looks unreal. She looks so, so good. Barry looks great. Barry does look great. And he's happy. Yeah. And the thing is they are assholes, but they are happy. They are happy. They are happy. And I think like, there is no way to be Mindy at that wedding that was supposed to be your best friend's. Yeah. The girl you don't really talk to anymore. Yeah. Whose husband you are married. and had an affair with before their wedding. There's no way to show up to that wedding in like a floor length I am a virgin bridal gown.

48:28She is wearing the correct dress for that vibe. It's very, I'm fabulous and I'm rolling with the punches. I'm fabulous, I'm rolling with this. Yeah. And it turns out that actually a lot of her speeches are about Rachel. A lot of her speeches. The main character of everyone's life. The main character of everyone's life. A lot of her speeches end up just being about Rachel and being about like the fact that Barry and Rachel were going to have this wedding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this Long Island venue, which I believe that all of those characters have been to like 12 weddings in that room. Plus bar mitzvahs, plus anniversary parties.

48:57Yeah, fully. They have all been in that room. They've all got stories around the back of that venue from when they were 14. Yes, yes. And it really feels real. It feels like a real wedding. And like you were saying as well, there's kind of, there's a moment where they have the ceremony in one room. Yes, yeah. So we see Rachel go in because obviously she's got her dress in her knickers and we see that, but we don't actually see the ceremony. But it's really, in terms of the architecture of the space, it's really clear to me, I might be wrong, I think I'm right, that what happens is they all go in and they see that ceremony happen with all of them in lines of chairs.

49:34And then they come outside and into that atrium where they have little canapes and little drinks or they go out into the grass if there's grass outside. and then while that is happening all of the staff are breaking down all of that ceremony structure and they're recreating it into the now room that you are getting married in and then everyone goes back in and now it's the venue for the reception which is very real. It's very real. That's how venues are. That's how venues have to work you can't have infinite space that's not how it works so you've got this one room that you're going into two rooms really.

50:05The canapé room the atrium room where they're sort of hanging out before the bridesmaids go through yeah and yeah the big room where it all happens and I think what's very interesting about this narratively as well is that we're following Rachel right now this is she makes a fool of herself she does she does she makes her speech she's basically like everyone sees her knickers yeah and she does her big fuck you to these people speech yeah and then she leaves and then she does the Copacabana yeah Barry Manilow's Copacabana and she starts singing with the band and you and I had such a long discussion about this because it's like it's like not sitcom because the thing about sitcom jokes is that they run on rails yes there's callbacks there's seeds planted or whatever there is no seed planting no for Copacabana really I don't think I don't think it comes up anywhere else that this is her party piece or anything it's just it's kind of like if it were a joke played today it would be kind of strangely in that fleabag tone of like this is a complicated woman who's doing something because it's her instinct and it might not be right but it is what's right for her right now it doesn't really make sense but it's like she gets up and sings it and like yeah we have different opinions on why that might be we were like really talking about why that might be talking about it and i think like i think my vision of it is that this is potentially these people in this room are people who've known her since she was a child there's lots of like extended family and history and all of that with these people she was in barry's family for years so all of his extended family know her really well yeah there's like a running joke that he's using the same band the same caterers the same everything for this wedding and she is returning to a place that she doesn't really exist anymore yeah like the the rachel who we meet in the pilot is a different woman she is she is somebody who her dad paid for everything she hadn't lived out of home you're a shoe you're a shoe you're a shoe you're a shoe but she was that woman that was what that was who she was and we now know we've had two seasons of getting to know this different person yeah and I think that she is going back and performing a thing that she might once have performed when she was like 12 years old 14 years old surrounded by similar community and these people before yeah um and that it is sort of a like I I'm different now but I also I know who you see and it is okay that I am different I am still I am like oh I am all of these people yeah yeah wow yeah that's really good and I think what's really important as well narratively is that as far as I can recall this is the final tying up of Barry and Mindy and that end of Rachel's life and her story yes it is like we we like she is breaking from that forever yes because up till now we've had lots of like going in to see Barry to return the ring and all this kind of stuff and like I don't think it ever comes up again after this so tying up that with a bow is like really satisfying it's really satisfying and also what happens alongside that oh monica and richard fucking monica and richard one of the saddest one of the saddest and truest breakups yeah like it's so moving talk us through it's so moving to watch her assume that they're gonna have kids because that's a things she's always wanted yeah and it kind of hasn't occurred to her that that might not be a thing that is in their life together because as well they've already had so much struggle in getting together at all yes with he's like a brother red dad he's older than most people but younger than most buildings it's so good yeah so we've we're really invested in monica and and richard at this point it's really and he hangs out with them he hangs out with them and they're all like over it like and also like she's really good with him yeah he really looks after her in a way that allows her to be herself and be weird but not have to run their lives he's very independent he's runs his own life yeah he's very on top of things and it's it's i'm not saying this should have happened for the show but if the people were real and i was one of monica's friends who get dialed into these parties I would be like she should have married that Richard she should have married Richard yeah because she I mean obviously she gets crazier as the season goes on because that's what sitcoms do because that's what sitcoms do the characters all get crazier Joey gets dumber so much dumber that it's actually impossible to find out Monica gets more neurotic yeah yeah but she I think he just really looked after her yeah he did you know and like as somebody who wasn't parented very well in many ways and was neglected maybe it's okay to have daddy issues.

54:54Maybe it's okay to have daddy issues if you're Monica. Yeah, and if you find a really nice daddy to look after you. Yeah, exactly. I think it's nice. But he, she is talking about a picture of their life and she asks about a bassinet in the corner and he says, like a hound? The delivery. It was so delicious. Like a hound? Like a hound? And she just wants a baby and he's already done that and we meet his son in like three years time when at Thanksgiving when Monica's got a patch on her eye sure he he has grown up children who are doctors who are her age like he's so he's grown up children who are her age he's done it all he does not want to do it again and the end of the episode is him not wanting it to be over yeah and saying to her if i have to i'll do it all again i'll do the night feeds i'll do the kids in school i'll take him to college i'll do like i'll do it with you if i have to i'm i'm gonna do it if i have to if it takes that and if you want to be happy with that then I will if I have to I'll do it and she's just like I don't want you to have to I don't want to have a kid with somebody who has to have a kid yeah and she's right she's so right she's right that's not a thing but and she desperately wants children and it is like honestly the 10 years of like Monica and children Monica and like motherhood yeah is such a sort of intense and moving narrative because of course we didn't know in season two she and chandler can't have kids yeah and they adopt and like and you know they find different ways of building a family but she so desperately at this point wants to have a baby that that the relationship with richard ends and they have that one last one last slow dance at barry and mindy's wedding so great it's really moving it's really great it's really great and they're both great in that scene yeah i really buy it i buy it from both of them he's the most beautiful like man on this show he's so gorgeous it's so crazy that when i was a kid watching this being like manica's going and i'm like and that's that bit where phoebe's like oh you are so lucky yeah oh yeah phoebe gets it we all get it now oh god he's so beautiful i do think as well that like courtney cox is monica's my least favorite friend and courtney cox is my least favorite actress in the series but only because they're all incredible yeah yeah the standard is so high i just think when she goes too big and too shrill it's just not it's not fun it doesn't feel good as a viewer um and it's like not it just doesn't feel light and bouncy yeah the way like ross's neuroses yeah bouncy and like silly yeah um and it just feels kind of sad i think i think many people have come to this conclusion just monica just feels very sad very sad okay so what was the final scorecard finally the other thing that's happening in this episode is you made a really clever point just before you started recording is chandler janice yes so chandler has a laptop a very big very big laptop comes up quite a bit clunk yeah in the early seasons and he is connected with the woman online is revealed he falls totally smitten with her and um then it is revealed at the very last moment that it is janice he's been speaking to and i really noticed when we were looking at this sort of this episode that there's a kind of there's a real theme here of um your past coming back to haunt you when it was unresolved so he has unresolved tensions and dramas with janice and of course she comes back um and also i justice for janice justice for janice a gorgeous i think we'll be talking about her in more detail in another episode but i'm so glad that that's happening because i just love her absolutely yeah absolutely it's happening um but and so that's kind of strange mirroring of like his past coming to haunt him yeah in this kind of circuitous way and also and rachel's in a past and standing in a room of her past yeah like her entire past looking at her at this wedding it's great it's great it's really good it's narratively really satisfying which is why we have given it an eight for narrative satisfaction yes we have given it a six for style because it's consistent because it's consistent and it feels like they knew what they were doing i know what that wedding is we know what it you know we know that room we know that community it feels like a really solid thing yes um but we don't really want to be there no we're a two for fomo we if we miss this we're not we're not that yeah yeah i mean I want to be there to see Rachel.

59:21Sure. Thing. Yeah. Sure. But generally it's not like. Am I going to schlep out Long Island for that? Yeah. I'm not going to Long Island for that. It doesn't look like a great hang. Yeah. None of the dancing looks like. Oh wow. They're mean people. There's a meanness to their love. There's a meanness to them. And it would be like watching a car crash. But in a way where you're like. I don't feel good about this afterwards. Do you think Barry and Mindy stay married? No. Does that come up? Does Mindy come back? No. I don't know. I don't think so. She was in it beforehand and like, yeah. Yeah. Like when Rachel hooks up with Barry and then she tells Mindy that she's doing it and she sounds like Chanel number five, et cetera, et cetera.

1:00:02Yeah. Mindy's like, I'm still going to marry him. Oh, yeah. She's still like, oh, no, this is this isn't going to end. This isn't you and me running off into the sunset as single gals who got away from the same guy. Mindy's like, no, this is my life. Yeah. But I think that I don't think they get divorced soon. I think they have kids, but I think that there's a point in their future where they are not together. So an overall score then of 5.33 recurring.

1:00:30This is what happens when you divide things into threes. The recurring is taking me out.

1:01:04Our next wedding things that lesbians have like tool belt you know whatever why why crazy weird velvet crushed velvet hats it's weird it's it's so weird yeah there are some separates under like when they take off all the bits and they're dancing and they're getting their photos taken when they're getting their photo taken and they're like arms are around each other they are both so beautiful but they need to strip off the like gubbins that are covering them yeah and they're like holding like loose lilies yes yeah like clutching flowers in their hands yeah with no arrangement onto their arms yeah um so that's a bummer and they are not to like criticize the catering because Monica does it yeah um but they are like all standing up eating pigs in blankets I don't know where they're standing up eating chicken breasts but like yeah the vibe is odd the vibe is odd because you know we have a lot to say on this on the politics and the moment we do of which Carol and Susan's wedding happens we do but I think it's important to say we love Carol and Susan We love Carol and Susan.

1:02:04I think everyone does, right? I think so. I hope so. I think that they are so often entered into the narrative for Ross to be a dick and be a fool. And that's a really nice place to find them because they are their own little community and they get to come in and look at Ross. Have the high ground. Yeah. And also Susan gets to often bait him with stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like she's tasted Carol's breast milk. She knows what it tastes like. and the way that she says she's tasted it he's like fuck you you sleep with my wife yeah yeah and that is very it's very funny that they keep getting into so long carol never stops being ross's wife in his head yep exactly that yeah and then this episode is part of that as well this episode is like it is really he is such a dick in the beginning about it and such a like weirdo about going to the wedding and all of the other friends like well we'll be there so yeah come on nobody else is weird about it everyone's like you know she is in love with this woman yeah yeah yeah we take the piss all the time but this is nice no it's a good thing broadly nice thing but what is really moving in this episode and the moment is Carol coming to see Ross while Monica is in the midst of all the catering because her parents aren't going to go and she said that she knows that they were having trouble with it and she knows that they have been struggling with this but she thought that for a wedding they'd kind of pull it together and they just clearly don't and that is really that's a lot that's a lot for like a sitcom to do in 20 minutes and to like really feel that moment land and feel like her real sadness in that and just be like I don't know how I can have a wedding if my parents aren't going to be there and supporting it and Ross is the one who says to her like it's not about them this is about you we will be there I will support you yes I will walk you down the aisle and that's really moving that's beautiful and it's it's a thing that like I think that it both celebrates their love as like queer people and lesbians yeah while also recognizing that this was a really weird time yeah and a really a really aggressive and violent and bad time yeah to be queer in America and the world really like there were very few countries at this point where you could legally get married as gay people you certainly couldn't in america and this wedding then is like it is a wedding but it's also like it's hugely symbolic it does not have any legal standing no carol and susan have no legal standing in each other's lives the reason that carol is so sorry the reason that susan is so focused on her involvement in ben and having her name as his surname and like being his mum and and her involvement in that is because like there'd been a couple of legal battles in the states at this point where two women who had a baby together fought for custody and like and then custody was approved to the non-birth mother like part of partial custody was approved but broadly like if something happens to to carol Susan doesn't have any legal right over Ben yeah and a child she's raising in her home every day and a child she is raising in her home every day and was there for his birth and is like a big part of his mum that family yeah she's his mum she is his mum and she is like a big part of like not only his mum as like a person who enters his life but she's his mum from pregnancy she's his mum always yeah and she has no legal rights parents and and she has no legal rights and and she would be needing ross to be a guy who said yeah you can still see your mom yeah and that's that's that like picks up on a lot of the resentment between those characters it's like she's terrified that he doesn't like her and that he's furious about this relationship and he's like livid that his wife has left him for another woman because she's like i might need you one day i hope i don't but like hey you're fucking killing me but like it's it you know that that is a tricky family for her to be part of because she is her her ally is one woman yeah and she loves this kid she loves ben so much and you can really see it and he like goes down the aisle as well and she has no legal right and it's mental and she wouldn't for ages yeah like this isn't it's not a thing that's like even like resolved in the states by the time Friends ends.

1:06:35Yeah. Eight years later. Like, you know, it's, it's brutal. Oh, fuck. Yeah. I just, I know. So I think their love is really important. And also something that you pointed out as well is that, um, they never kiss. They never kiss on screen. Because, um, we have a much allusion to their like very active sex life. Yeah. But yeah, they never kiss. They don't kiss at their wedding. Yeah. They are in each other's arms. They are clearly in love. They're clearly married. Their photograph scene kills me. Their photograph scene is beautiful. They're so gorgeous together. But yeah, they're not, they're not kissing.

1:07:12But it really feels like, I would love to know more about those two actresses and their process because we see them so rarely. Like once or twice a season maybe. But there's something about their physical chemistry. I just like believe those women wake up together every day, live their lives, have a huge circle of friends, hobbies, personal failings, whatever. their chemistry it's like they're so physical or something without even touching very much and they're so quiet they're quietly in love and that neither of them are extroverted in any way really like susan's definitely a bit tougher yeah because she has to be like but they're great they're so great i love yeah they're really they are great women and i'm really I'm really moved by this wedding yes and I think it's a very important wedding not just in friends but like in television it's the first lesbian wedding on like network television yeah it's the first certainly like on a sitcom but like there'd been a gay wedding in Roseanne the month before like December 95 and this was January 96 but yeah this is like a new thing that was really groundbreaking they anticipated a load of kickback about it and it's why the women don't kiss and and both of them have since they're both straight women but they've both spoken since about how much they wanted to kiss and how much they regret not having kissed yeah because of how much it would have meant and what it would have been but they're both like it was the time that like yeah we were worried about censorship and yeah worried what the next works would do and even without them kissing two affiliates decided not to broadcast that episode and only that episode to just be like no we are not broadcasting a lesbian wedding so one in texas and one in utah were like no not us our community our people will not be able to watch this episode mental like and that was that was a true thing that was happening at that time and and in in 1996 the defense of marriage act came in in america it was signed into law and it was a law that I mean Defense of Marriage Act sounds like it could be either terrible or we're defending marriage of all kinds and all people's right to marriage.

1:09:30It's the other one. It's the other one. So it's it is I'm going to read a bit which is that it limited the federal recognition of same-sex marriage by limiting the definition of marriage to the union of one man and one woman and specifically it allowed states to deny recognition of same-sex marriages conducted by other states in anticipation of some states making marriage legal and others gay marriage legal and others not. And it also codified non-recognition of same-sex marriages for all federal purposes. So that's insurance for government employees, social security, survivors' benefits, immigration, bankruptcy, joint tax returns, like all of the things that being married might make possible were not afforded to gay people.

1:10:12And that was regardless of whether or not marriage was legal in your state. Right. So all of those federal things, you could have like gay marriage being legal in California and still you could not bring your husband. Yes. Yeah. It dissolves as soon as you leave the state. It dissolves as soon as you leave the state. And it also means that the federal law around immigration means you can't bring somebody to the country. So it's not just that it dissolves when you leave the state. It's like you are not afforded the same rights as somebody else regardless of what a state has decided you can do. Those rights are still not the same.

1:10:43Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's not equal. and so that is and it was introduced in may in 1996 so like four months after this episode episode was broadcast right and this and it was it's introduced under clinton it was introduced under a democratic government and clinton was like i don't think this is good but didn't have a way of not doing it sure it was put through in the house and newt gingrich who was the speaker of the house at the time his sister his half sister candace is the person who officiates carol and susan's funding oh because she was a real champion for gay rights and she was like and is a lesbian herself yeah and was like my half brother's wrong guys he's on the wrong side of history and she has like spoken about about him at so many points in 2012 when he ran for he was a nominee on the presidential candidate she was like I'm going for Obama guys my brother is not good she has publicly and at many points said he is on the wrong side of history and so part of this is her standing up and marrying these two women on primetime television and that being a really really important moment thank you so much for taking me through that it's so beautiful it's so beautiful And I just think, like, it's such a thing where, like, it was, we were talking about this before as well, it was illegal to be gay in my lifetime where I grew up, and same for you.

1:12:14Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, not just illegal to get married, but illegal to, like, be a homosexual man. Yeah, gay sex acts were criminalised in 1997. Yes, yeah, and 1996, I think, in Queensland. Yeah. And that, obviously, also doesn't include lesbians because... Not real. No, not real. But also, as somebody said when they were writing the legislation, we don't want to give people ideas. So if we just don't put it in, they won't know that it's possible. Oh, my God. Yeah. We don't want to give people ideas? We just don't give them ideas. That's so funny. So funny. So funny. To be like, if women know this is possible, they'll all want it.

1:12:50They know they can just live a life without men. Yeah. If they know that sex like this is possible, like, let's not codify this. Let's not write it down. So I think... Because veganism is a whisper your heart makes. Yeah. so I think it's hard now to watch this episode in with that lens with that that mindset that existed then yeah we're like this is a huge deal yeah it's a huge deal and I think it's easy to look at these weddings and just go like oh yeah marriage is legal for everyone in the country we live in now it's you know we are allowed to get married and that's a really good thing and we we passed you know equal rights in that context and you know not still in some others but you know yes that was a thing that we fought for and won this is now 30 years ago yeah and and it was not legal this is not a thing this wedding is not a wedding that exists on any paper anywhere except for them and that is beautiful and really important and lots of people were doing it anyway yeah like this is emblematic of like a community of people who were making this happen anyway before it was legal.

1:14:00So beautiful, Kate. I just love it. I just love this wedding. I love this wedding. I know. I love these women. I love this. Like, they're just really good. They're really good. I think they're really good characters. I think they show up Ross for his... Yeah, smallness. Smallness and his prejudice. But also, they're just lovely. But just to take a minute of like, because this is a show that has had a lot of very correct blowback for the way like the gay panic oh for sure you know very homophobic easy boring shitty jokes yeah i don't think were being written or broadcast because the people had darkness in their hearts but that it was an easy thing to reach for and they probably had a late deadline they knew people would laugh because it was funny in 1996 i mean one of the producers one of the core producers a gay man yeah like that this is It's not a community that didn't know gay people.

1:14:55It's just this was the comedy at the time. This was the comedy at the time. This was the easy comedy at the time. And yeah, and that's neither to excuse it, but also it's like, I'm not interested in putting people on trial for this kind of thing. But it does sort of go to show that neither homophobia nor racism nor prejudice of any kind is a monolith. Do you know what I mean? Like you can have extremely strong lefty liberal principles in one area of it and then have total blind spots in others, which we've seen with the trans community again like you know there are there are plenty of gay and lesbian people who are anti-trans yeah totally i'm not saying it's the majority within the queer community yes of course there are yeah yeah and like that's it's interesting i you know i remember coming out of that sort of um very online lefty moment of the 2010s that we kind of yeah the word ally was treated as though it were this kind of rubber stamp you gave somebody after a series of tests and then you could take it away or whatever.

1:15:51But actually, there is no such thing as being an ally. There is only being a mensch. Do you know what I mean? You just have to sort of choose to be a mensch every day. This is the thing. Allyship is not like... Allyship is a verb. It is not a label you get to give yourself. It's a verb. Yeah, exactly. You get to do it or you don't. Another little detail of this wedding I really enjoy is that Susan is walked down the aisle by both of her parents. Her dad a military man and her mum just like a very Republican blonde woman. Yes. And I'm not here to defend the military because they've done, they've not done great things to my country specifically.

1:16:26Sure. And at this time it was very Don't Ask, Don't Tell. This is very Don't Ask, Don't Tell era. Right. In the military. But there's like something very moving about having these very straight looking military people at this gay wedding. Being the parents who show up. I have to think that was a deliberate choice. Yeah, right. Of being like, we know this is Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Yeah. And they were intentionally putting this man, who is a highly decorated person. Yeah, he wears a uniform. Yeah, right? He wears a uniform to walk his daughter down the aisle. I know some people, like, for example, a deep friend of the Pajan County is from military stock.

1:17:02But, like, her parents are among the more liberal sort of people that I know. And it's because they've lived all over the world. Of course. And they've seen a lot of human experience. And they're, like, they love sort of, like, talking about sex and taking edibles and stuff. They're great. I mean, great. And like, it's like, again, nothing as a monolith. No, no. He is such an interesting man. We find out so little about it apart from the fact that he enjoys his pig in a blanket. Yeah. Joey comes up and tells him later, I rolled that bad boy. And your man's really impressed with that. He's really impressed, yeah.

1:17:31He's like, yeah, great pig in blanket, actually. So we have Carol and Susan's wedding. It is our third. We have given it a 10 for FOMO. Yes. Because I want to be in that room. Love that room. I love. Big booze at that wedding. Big booze at that wedding. From Orange's New Black. Yes, indeed. Famous lesbian. Yeah. I can't wait to meet all of those lesbians. Yeah. Can't wait to dance with them. Can't wait to hang out. Yeah, yeah. Oh, it's a great wedding. It's such a nice vibe. Yeah. It's such a nice vibe. It is, though, a quite shit room. And the style is very, lots of draping fabrics, lots of, like, weird crushed velvets.

1:18:09Yeah. We've given it a three for style. And I think that that is correct. I think that's correct. That is correct. Sorry, guys. Yeah, sorry, guys. And narratively, they are not the central friends. No. And so it struggles to be higher than seven. But it is seven because it is a big deal for Ross in the same way that Barry and Mindy's wedding is a big deal for Rachel. Yes, yeah. Like, it's a big narrative moment for him to go, I am watching my wife not be my wife, be somebody else's wife. And I think he still continues to be touching with Susan. Of course, he does. sure but but i think there is something here about him walking her down the aisle that is incredibly important to this narrative and to this this whole arc that he goes on yeah because like i think with both galleries they're incredibly inflexible people yeah like they are very insistent that their way is the right way and like opening up whenever ross opens up his mind a bit to other things it's quite moving yeah yeah it really is and i think i think it's it's it's a good moment And so we end up with a score of 6.66 recurring.

1:19:17I love how we could have just added up all the numbers. So easily. We could have given it a 30, like 25. No, we've got the recurrings. We must do averages. It's out of 10. Out of 10. Come on. Is there anything else that happens on that? It's Monica and the catering. It's Monica and the catering. Oh, something else happens on that episode that's very significant. Again, with Rachel, our main character. Oh my god Which is that Rachel's mother Rachel's mother Who we only realised On this time around Was the actress Who played the main character In That Girl Which is a historic Like Sort of 70s I think New York sitcom Looks like 70s Right That picture of it That we were looking at Which I've never I mean I don't know If it's New York actually Maybe it's not Yeah but Whatever I don't know But it's a famous sitcom About a girl who comes to the city I'm sure that my American listeners Are like tearing out their hair That we've never heard of this Yeah I know about That Girl from context clues in other media, but I don't know anything else about that girl.

1:20:09Yeah, she moves from her hometown of Brewston, New York to make it big in New York City. So it is. Great. She's coming to New York City. And that is the actress who plays Rachel's mom. And for the iconic line, you didn't marry your Barry, sweetie, but I married mine. Yeah. It's really, really moving. Yeah. To imagine that Rachel, yeah, that that would have been Rachel's life. Yeah. And Rachel like struggling with her parents splitting up is very much like a recognition of the ways in which that kind of marriage would have been bad for her too. Yeah. And that she would have hit a point of going, I want to be someone else and somewhere else and I can't be this person for this man anymore.

1:20:55And it's a really important part of anybody's maturity, I think, is that when that age that you get where your parents start confiding in you. Yeah. because something I've definitely I think many people find this is that when your parents are like the you know baby boom generation or whatever is that they have been it's really been instilled in them that like you don't really share your most intimate stuff with people outside the family yeah and so when you get to the point when you're an adult as well and you start being that person that you're if you're lucky yeah it is a privilege in many ways um for your parents that sharing with it takes you a few years to recalibrate I think totally you know yeah to feel like oh I have this information and I need to accept it as a person rather than as a person who is your daughter yes who is having feelings of being a child and not and this not being fair or this not going the way I thought it would go with this reshaping my vision of you yeah and and seeing your parents as people instead yeah and it's tough it's tough like it's a cliche for a reason yeah yeah and it's it's really interesting watching Rachel do it in this and like and she struggles with it over many seasons like she keeps struggling with it and and I think in a very in a way that feels very true and very good yeah um but yeah I think it's it's lovely knowing that Rachel because Rachel is so she comes to New York and and she really pushes for a big career yeah she wouldn't have had that at all the whole thing with Barry was she wasn't gonna work she was just she was gonna not work in his place he was gonna be his wife and I know I'm just I'm like she was gonna have kids quite young and and that is a life that I think that in another world is really good for her yeah but it's not good for the Rachel that we know and the Rachel that we meet in the pilot and the Rachel like who exists by the end of the show there's a real there's a realism to her to all of their careers I think I mean there's a lot of about like oh the apartments are too big and blah blah blah all that kind of stuff uh fine but in terms of like she she literally starts separating hangars at Bloomingdale's.

1:22:53And then we slowly get her up to like Junior Binary and then eventually to Ralph Lauren. It's like a very realistic and satisfying career arc for somebody. Yeah, yeah. She was really doing the grunt work at the start. Yeah. And then, yeah, she happens to meet Mark and it's good timing and she's at, you know, Monica's diner and he's there at the bar and he's like, oh, I actually know there's a job going in Bloomingdale's and I could recommend you. And like, that's how that shit happens. It literally is how that shit happens. That's the right way for that to have gone. Yeah. Yeah. And then at the end she's like choosing between you know high power jobs at Ralph Lauren and Louis Vuitton and they're fighting over her and you know paying all her moving costs and giving her a huge salary and flying Ross back and forth if she wants like that's a real 10 year trajectory of well fucking done babe.

1:23:39Well fucking done babe. You do it all by yourself. Ugh. I love her. Girls doing it all by themselves. Girls doing it all by themselves. The most emotional thing. She is. Oh. god next on our list so there are two weddings left on our list and the next one is phoebe and mike which we just watched today it's so beautiful it's so beautiful it's such a beautiful wedding the styling is the best of all of them yeah styling it's gorgeous everyone looks stunning and i don't think it's just that it's the most recent and therefore the closest in fashion memory like that's not really relevant because it's 2004 they all just look like the most beautiful versions of themselves yeah they do rachel's hair is incredible phoebe looks unbelievable those bridesmaids dresses are phenomenal and my only gripe is that we don't see more of them i'm like i want to see those dresses move yeah it's because they're wearing coats as well it's because of the coats but it's like i can't believe they got those they look like vivian westwood they're so beautiful they're stunning they're kind of um this sort of sequined sequined but bust sort of situation.

1:24:51But not like super fitted just like hangs on them both so beautifully so it's Rachel and Monica wearing it and with silk bows around their middle and then huge taffeta skirts. And because it's a winter wedding there's something so glamorous about a winter wedding. It's gorgeous and I think they had the like narrative benefit here of Phoebe and Mike's wedding needed to be before the end of the show. It couldn't be the final thing that happens. Yes. Because the final thing that happens, it has to be like all six of them doing your thing. And yeah, all of them moving out. And so you have this opportunity mid-season.

1:25:32The only other wedding that is mid-season is Carol and Susan's. Okay. All the rest like finish the seasons because they're a big, big event. Yeah, so they're summer weddings. They're summer weddings. And this one is, you get the snow and like it's the most, sitcom of all the weddings in that it does exactly what sitcom weddings generally tend to do which is some crisis has occurred a vastly reduced number of people are here we're doing this in a way that is a bit weird we're doing it in a way that means a lot to us yes we are talking ben and leslie in parks and rec and the fact that they're getting married like in the office yes we are talking jess and nick and new girl and the fact that they have to get married in the hospital because one of the other characters are having a baby which like all of those ones where you have a plan for a wedding and you imagine you're building towards it all season but actually in the end it's just the core characters in the room and that's lovely yeah yeah and so they get to play this game with phoebe and mike here and it's so beautiful so so okay we've talked about the bridesmaids dresses but then phoebe's dress which we don't reveal until the last yeah she takes her coat off and And then you, and you literally hear the live studio go, it's such a beautiful moment.

1:26:45Because as well with styling in Phoebe, it is all over the place. Sometimes you get like interesting outfits that you're like, cool. But like, it's like a lot. Often it's just a lot of print, a lot of chaos, a lot of like quite ill fitting things. Like she's beautiful. Yeah. And she's so often in like a shirt that's like a, like long sleeve tank. That's not long enough for her. Like long sleeve shirt. That's not long enough. Yes. Yeah. And like, I think that it, I think that is very accountable. choice. It doesn't make me mad because Rachel and Monica get to wear great clothes. And Phoebe often.

1:27:14Her early season stuff where she's a lot more kind of boho-y. Yeah, the boho dresses and big skirts. Yes, her kind of focusing her outfits really. Big time. Are beautiful. But yeah, then as it goes on, it's like a lot of big ugly necklaces as well. Which again, it all makes sense characterise. And it's all the time too. It's all, this was not a great style era. And I also think she was always going to be that character who wore a lot of jewellery. Yeah. And it's also, a personal thing I have about Phoebe is I think she will never be a character who like gets out of thrifting I think yes she would always be like agreed going through not like a fancy thrift shop she was going through a goodwill being like I don't think that people who grow up in that kind of poverty lose those kind of instincts no so the fact that her clothes are sort of jumbled together makes complete sense to me even when she's like touching 40 yes yes absolutely yeah she that makes some real sense for her as a character but it means that when she walks out in this like pearlescent like silver grey like somewhere beautiful shade of grey such a beautiful shade and it's so gorgeous against her hair and her skin she looks luminous and her hair is so curly as well like it was in the early seasons it's beautiful because they really make a mistake with her hair it's like it goes very yellow in the later seasons and it's very flat very straightened and because she has this big expressive face she just doesn't look her best in the later seasons and like just the big curly hair like it's so beautiful everything about it is beautiful it's gorgeous all those styling things if any of my friends had a wedding with those dresses yeah i would be like you have the most stylish wedding of anyone it's it's it's heaven and mike looks extraordinary his suit's so beautiful and he's just always happy to see paul rudd always happy to see paul rudd he's great and there's something as well about all the boys in like and joey wears it very well the sort of tuxedo and a winter tuxedo and a winter coat really it's a great new york look yeah yeah yeah it's so batman's parents yeah brilliant it's a great look for men yeah and like i think one of our favorite things about this wedding is it's it's joey it's joey it's joey in this wedding over these days where we've been watching friends together yes we've had a lot of very deep conversations about joey yeah we love joey so much joey a lot and the most important thing about joey i think is that i think it was for a long time after the show and because he did the show joey which was not very good yes there was a real sense correct i guess of like they make joey too stupid yeah it's like just not real they don't leave him in a place of like yeah everyone else is married off and crippled off and they do deal with that in the final episodes of like they're gonna have a room for joey there's something a bit sad about that but if you actually zoom out and look at joey's life you will see the perfect aspirational model of what it is to be a person who is single and childless but who's like family are their friends and friends are their family yeah like it's so beautiful the way he is like the emotional anchor for so many of these characters and truly like at so many different points like people are coming to joey now yeah yeah yeah in the final seasons despite like if you leave aside the the fact that they make him an absolute idiot in so many ways he's actually becomes this like real sage of like yeah i'm here to support i'm here for you i love you like he Rachel goes to him.

1:30:26She goes to him when she's pregnant. She goes to like, she is like, obviously I'm going to have to move out. And he's like, well, no, you will live here with Emma and that will be lovely. Yeah. Like we'll have the baby here. We'll put the crib here. This is going to be great. Like he just, he is family. And he's Phoebe's person. He's Phoebe's person. Anytime they acknowledge that, that they're all best friends, but Phoebe and Joey are the best friends. Phoebe and Joey are really the best friends. Yeah. That whole thing of like every month we get dinner to discuss you all. It's so nice. it's like it's also how we all operate totally it's really true that they have this like independent thing that we don't see on screen that often yeah yeah but that is like it really exists just between the two of them yeah and he's like chandler's person yeah he's um monica's confidant yeah he's the secret keeper for chandler monica and i think why it's so so aspirational as well because i think i know there are people who are listening who are single and of an age when it feels weird to be single and they're made to feel uncomfortable to be single i gotta say like I've I have a girlfriend though yeah but the you know I have been single my whole life until this past year yeah this is your longest relationship this yeah it's a it's a year coming up to a year and it's the longest relationship I've romantic relationship I've ever had yeah and it's I have spent all my 20s and most of my 30s being a single person surrounded by lots of people in couples yeah and that and like people having kids and people getting married and all sorts of stuff and it's I love it and I think that looking from the outside a lot of people like oh what a sad what a sad life and you don't have anyone but Kate won't have anyone there and what will you do and how that be and I'm like my life has been really great yeah and it's really great now that's not discounting it's not saying that it's not beautiful now but it is like it was a thing that I really relished and enjoyed and and it's a role that I still often play because I I love this version of coming and being friends with a couple and friends with two couples.

1:32:20And like, there's lots of structures and setups in my life where I love being an additional person in that relationship. Yeah, we have put too much emphasis on this kind of strange shaming of the third wheel. It's really crazy. And like the yes. But what often happens and what is rarely depicted is that when so when people couple off or when they have kids or whatever, there is this tendency of the and I do this yeah it's the it's the we it's the us of course yeah we're the hermetically sealed thing and we have secrets away from the rest of everybody else and everything and that can often mean that when you're struggling for whatever reason that you either can't involve your partner because it's sensitive to them or because they just don't have the resource to be with you right now because they're working or whatever the people who are the people you go to are the joeys yeah they're the kates and because they are it's not that they're constantly available they have their own stuff yeah yeah they have a level of bandwidth that is so generous and beautiful and can really hold you in that space and they are the people who are like propping up these friend groups it's a bandwidth i'm very proud of like it's a bandwidth that i will retain and that feels very important to me right yeah and it's not i'm not trying to say that anyone's living in service to anybody else but you know what i mean it's not that it's But it is like, it is a way of having friendship and having friends and being friends with couples and with people that I have been, it has been very moving and important to me in my adult life and is not how I thought my adult life would look.

1:33:50I was, you know, I am, I put my hand up, a recovering Monica. I spent my entire childhood being in Monica. I, like, I did not lose the weight. So I remain a larger person. but I was a person who had very specific ideas of how life needed to look, was so much reassured by control and numbers and structure. Our baking episode, we talk about this. Exactly. Oh yeah, go back and listen to the baking episode. But it is, yeah, there was, it was hugely, you know, for years I would watch Friends and be like, I am Monica. I am 100 % Monica. That is exactly who I am. and it feels very like I I have found a place to like develop boundaries and develop a greater sense of self-awareness and also to like ask myself what it is I want in life in a way that I don't think Monica has um and part of that was coming out and part of that was friendship groups and part of that was work and all of these things have like contributed to that sense of self that I feel like I have now but I I have a great sense of having been a Monica and feeling that that anxiety of of wanting everything to be exactly the way that you want it to be and she is so that in this episode and it's it's it's horrible to watch and it's it's quite nice now to look at it and be like I I recognize her and I feel that and I know that yeah she's horrible she's so tough to watch yeah but i feel now much more like a like a joey in the in the game you all thought you evolved and that's and that's a really that's i think like to evolve from a from a moniker into joey i'm quite just a cleverest unusual unusual trajectory wow but yeah i feel i feel very close to joey in this episode i feel very close to this sense of like this is of expansiveness of expansiveness of like true love yeah in lots of different ways and he comes from a very structured family yeah he's like seven sisters he there's a an episode early on that we we saw which was is it the first episode no it's not the first episode it was at the end of the lesbian wedding I think which is which of us do you think will be first to get married and everyone's like oh I was actually married I had a wedding but I wasn't oh yeah Ross was married and then they're like okay so which one do you think will be the last yes and everyone looks at Chandler yeah because at that time it's really the narrative is very like yeah Joey sleeps around but you know he's a big family guy from you know a big Italian family from Queens like he is gonna have a family he's gonna have a wife he's gonna do this he's gonna do that and when now we get 10 years later and it's like that's not what his life looks like but his life is rich and expansive and lovely and full of people who adore him and that's very moving that's an unendingly beautiful theme to me as well when people like end up having different lives than the ones I thought they would have but it's yeah it's so much more it's so much more beautiful very charlotte sex in the city it's very charlotte and sex in the city it's very reverse trajectory yeah and it's very miranda as well yeah it's very like her life is joyous in a way that she could not have anticipated when she was 32 yeah plans are what happened when you're making other life exactly you know and and the way in which that is that he is he is phoebe's person and that is the first sort of scene of the episode yeah when she goes to him and like I will never not be blown away by like Lisa Kudrow's acting or whatever and I think I know that the the note from uh when I've listened to podcasts with the creators before they were like the whole thing with Phoebe is that the most like sort of traumatic things that happen to her but she wears them so lightly yeah like Koda because she had stew like yes if she were to really be considered yeah she would break and she would never come back together and so she's so strong and so like flippant about like oh yeah my stepfather's in prison and he was supposed to be yeah and then it's like she asks joey because she's like you're kind of like a father to me or whatever and it's like really funny and he's like hectoring paul rhodes right about it yeah yeah but then i but like the kind of subtext is is that like he knows that nobody else will do this work for yeah you know and when they're sitting on the sofa at the start and like and on that couch that they're on so many times and she just says to him like I want you know I really love you like you mean a lot to me and I feel like a lot here and I can't even remember what words she says but he just turns around and can't handle it and it's all played for laughs but like cry yeah it's all played for laughs but it's very true she's like I hope oh she says I hope you know how much you mean to me yeah I hope you know how much you mean to me and also it's so cunty that she like does not do this with the other boys this is the thing phoebe phoebe loves joey she loves monica she loves rachel the others are there and she is very clear about that she at no point pretends that she has equal friendships with the six of them no which is so real she's like yeah you're also here cool right like her her and um ross spar a lot yeah I can't really think of any Phoebe and Chandler moments there's some really nice bits like when he when he and Kathy break up and he's like playing a record and she comes in and sings with him and like there's really moving moments that are really beautiful between them but they are like sparse through the series yeah yeah yeah cute yeah but she just loves Joey and that's really nice I also just love this episode for the like the kind of real world entrance of like yeah Mike has his own life Mike has his own life and actually if you've not been asked to be groomsmen until the night of the rehearsal dinner you're probably not going to be he's got other friends when Rachel's like oh these guys are just wondering what they're doing tomorrow and just like well nothing Mike has friends man it's very good it's very well done because it's very true it's very true that Mike would have his own Mike is like an adult in his late 30s by this point.

1:39:46He's got a career as a pianist. Yes. At a bar we went to. Not because he was a friend's bar, but because we were in New York. We were in New York. He's got that job. He's got his own life. He's just got stuff. And he's got pals. Of course he does. There's another group of people that exist outside this show. And he has Chappie the dog. He has Chappie the dog. Very important. Here's my stern opinion. Come on. I don't think dogs should ever be at weddings. I think there is, unless it's a service animal, I do not think, and I have a dog, she's sitting next to you right now, all snuggly and nice. I think that the second a dog comes to a wedding, it becomes the dog's wedding.

1:40:24Everyone's like looking at the dog. You should be looking at the bride. Sylph is not at your wedding. No. And she's one of your best friends. She's my best friend. I have known her in many lives. Yeah. And in some of those lives, I was her dog. Yeah, sure. But not at your wedding. No. No, first of all, dogs hate going on holidays. Well, this is it. Dogs hate to be in a new place. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To look around and be like, where's my familiar things? Oh, nowhere. Yeah, a dog can keep like three locations in its head. Of course. In terms of like, you know, people's apartments or whatever that enjoys going to.

1:40:55Like they don't want to be at the wedding. No. And you don't want to deal with it. And like, don't let anyone take their dog to your wedding. Don't let it happen. Even if it's a dog friendly hotel, because dog friendly hotels are the fucking worst. dogs hate going on holidays do not have a dog at a wedding but we do have Chappie we have Chappie I think Chappie is well cast I love when an animal is well cast yeah absolutely it looks like a dog that Ross doesn't want to hold exactly it's the ultimate white dog would stuff in his eye yeah exactly and that Mike's family would absolutely have and love yeah yeah yeah that makes sense to me love it I love when they're walking down the aisles with a steel drum Oh, like fools rush in.

1:41:41Yeah. Like fools rush in playing and just being like, no, we really we really earned this. Like they didn't rush in. Phoebe wanted to get married. Mike didn't. They broke up. Mike went away, did a bunch of reckoning. Yeah. Do I want to be with Phoebe? Like, do I want to? Will I get married if it means I can be with Phoebe? Yes. I'm going to come back. I'm going to like David is here, but now I'm here and it's really important that I'm here. And like they feel hard won. Yeah. They really worked on it as adults. they didn't meet as kids they met like when they were fully formed people and it's so difficult to sell in a new person oh yeah with this like sort of solid a um a cast after this long i mean they failed conclusively with emily yeah you know it speaks to the raw charisma of paul rudge and also how dearly we feel about phoebe as a character about phoebe being happy and phoebe having family and in fact you wrote out her vows can i read your vows when i was growing up i didn't have a normal mom and dad or a regular family like everybody else and I always knew that something was missing and now I'm standing here today knowing that I have everything that I'm ever gonna need you are my family oh and I forgot I love you and you have nice eyes it's so beautiful so beautiful because like these are these are like 27 minute episodes or whatever they are like you know and it's really hard to get a whole wedding ceremony in and not lose time and like keep it sincere but also you have to cut to a joke all the time that's the format yeah and so it's so short but it's so perfect sincerity like that is just and you know what that's that's why this this is the second top wedding because that doesn't exist in monica and chandlers there's not enough moments of sincerity but they do have it in the engagement like sometimes you just have too much to do in a wedding to be like funny and create fake drama and do a thing and and like all of that has to happen and the fake drama in this one like the comedy is like monica's insane and the boys thought they'd be involved and they're not and they're like the the drama of it is the snow yeah and that's all then out of the way and the final end section is just like it's all sincerity there's like few jokes scattered through but it's just phoebe gets a real moment to be like a romantic lead which she never gets in the show she's never the romantic lead no and it's beautiful watching her like be so in love and there's something like these are like comedy writers right and like I imagine it was such joy over so many years to be like let's think of another fucked up thing that happened to Phoebe but I have to imagine like no matter who the characters are you get so deeply attached yeah that must have felt so lovely to just be like we all know in this room what this woman has been through we know how important this is it's the same reason why when she breaks up with mike because she's like when everybody is sort of saying to her like well do you need to get married like yeah i kind of imagine maybe you wouldn't or do you want kids do you want this and she's like yeah i want a really like picture of normal family yeah i want a husband and i want kids and i want to have a volvo yeah and i want to take those kids to school and I want to like take him to soccer practice and she's like that's the mum I want to be and that's the kind of family I want to have and it's really moving watching her not have to compromise that because there is a world in which they're like well Phoebe's kooky, she gets the weird stuff and it'll be fine, she'll be happy with stuff and instead being like no what's really important to Phoebe is she is chosen as somebody's family and she gets to say that in front of everyone who she loves and who matters to her I just think it's really good it's really good love it I love it okay we're like way over time we need to sorry yeah score it and then to our final wedding Phoebe and Mike 10 out of 10 for FOMO I want to be in the snow yeah yeah we want to be there we're desperate to be there I don't know what they do afterwards there's no details about reception they're home at 11 and that's weird but still still I want to be I want to be there yeah style 10 they all look stunning it's gorgeous it's 10.5 10.5 beautiful narrative five stuff's happening but it's not a lot it's like narratively we're wrapping things we're wrapping things up and that is i think the season 10 of it all the fact that we're approaching the end anyway and so we end up with an average score of 8.33 recurring this is shaking me out it's like my clown act like every time i just pop up and say recurring again the new handkerchief coming out of your sleeve exactly so our final wedding yes that we are going to discuss is of course We've all figured it out by now.

1:46:15We've all figured it out. It's Ross and Emily's. It's the best wedding. It's Ross and Emily's end of season four, the one with Ross's wedding, the ones in London. I take thee, Rachel. I take thee, Rachel. One of the best moments of television drama. I mean, we were watching it earlier this week. It still makes my jaw drop. I know it's coming. It's perfect. It's in, it's even if I didn't, even if I'd never seen this episode, I would have known the words, I take thee, Rachel. And yet it's still every time I'm like, yeah and the horror the horror of it but the truth of it like the fact that it is so all of the the chaos of like ross and emily meeting and dating so quickly and like trying to trying to jump through loads of steps really fast and all of that leading to this incredibly fast wedding yeah it's like yeah of course you're not over your ex and of course you're not fully here in the room and of course like of course all of these things are complex in a way that you fail to recognize because you want things to be okay yeah yeah and you do love this woman you really do he really does love her like i truly buy like how sad ross is in season five when it does it clearly hasn't worked she's wonderful yeah and great for him yeah in many ways yeah but he says rachel so you can't you can't do anything you can't do anything with that can't do anything with that so good yeah but as a wedding as a wedding it is it's the wedding that launched a thousand fairy lights it is so romantic it's so beautiful yeah the the brick of the chapel the brick of the chapel the fact that it's like a building site that yes let's face it they would never be allowed into right but it makes no sense makes no sense none of it makes sense but it is so beautiful and it's so romantic that the conversation is kind of like well don't worry we'll just get married another time and the conversation is like you've got people flying from him you can't get married yeah it's today like when when ross says when ross says to emily like are you saying it's now or never and she she's saying to him is it now or never and he's like no it's now yeah yeah yeah and he's totally right totally right it has to be now like you can't invite everyone to england and then be like oh guys the chapel sammy sorry we're gonna reschedule like no you find another chapel yeah he's 100 % the right but it makes it so romantic yeah when he like when he goes there and turns the fairy lights on and and this is the thing this is the thing I feel really emotional about is Monica is there in that moment yeah and she is there in this creation of this beautiful wedding and she's had a real hand in this because there's no way Ross did this on his own she's really set this up yeah she can do it for someone else but she can't do it for her oh fuck like She visually really has a hand in that wedding in a way that is really important.

1:49:05She's able to totally picture the problems on the space. Right. Know what Emily would want. Know what Emily would want to think about Emily and Ross and what they can need. And like the fact that this venue is incredibly important to Emily. What are we going to do? How are we going to manage that? She can't do it for herself. Because she has no taste. She has no taste or sense of self-awareness or like, yeah. Yeah. No, she is. Fuck me. It's really tough. She's like constantly trying to be a. She can do it for somebody. That's so upsetting. it's so upsetting I think it's like yes are we being overly fucked up about um made up characters sure sure but the reason this hit me is because I know women like this I know these women you've been to weddings like that yeah yeah yeah she doesn't know she is weddings yeah fuck me and what's yeah what's really nice is being at a wedding where you're like this is so you and Monica and Chandler's wedding is so un them that the next day somebody could have the same wedding oh yeah yeah but okay so we so So we have the venue itself.

1:50:01The venue itself is stunning. I remember an interior designer telling me once that the secret to a great room is five sources of light, including the window. Well, there you go. That's what this is. Right? Everything is about more light sources of different kinds of different tempos. That's if you want to make a room good and if you want to make a wedding good. It's beautiful. It's all like candles. It's glowing. It's beautiful. Everyone looks stunning. the like the color palette of it being light white black and the red bride's name dresses and red accents of flowers is so beautiful in that brick space it's just gorgeous gorgeous and also the wedding dress is not my favorite but it's very her yeah yeah it feels very her it feels her it feels right yeah exactly it's kind of got a baby doll cut because she's got a very petite frame which sort of works yeah like it feels like a Jane Austen girly wedding do you know what I in wedding shops at that time you know exactly that the hair i don't love on her no but it's also very of the time very of the time i really styled updo with loads of curls yeah it looks exactly yeah yeah we are talking this one was may 1998 right yeah of course yeah um and then the bridesmaids dresses which we had a little yeah earlier on the um they're great but they don't look like bridesmaids dresses but i think in many ways of the time maybe like maybe there's a version of because they before the brides dresses went this way are very like we're very simple yeah we're very like shift it's like long shift dresses like long yeah just long spaghetti strap simple dresses in a rejection of the absolute style of yeah 80s dress that yeah Rachel was in at Mindy and Barry's wedding like two years earlier it's very the opposite of that and that's the interesting thing people talk about decades like they are confined to those 10 years but actually the 80s went on oh yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly and maybe a little longer in Long Island yeah yeah the reception less stylish in that they're in Emily's family's house her dad and her stepmother's house those oh my god perfectly cast Tom Conti and Jennifer Sanders absolutely perfectly cast so insane so insane wall from the material wall from the material am I on the radio?

1:52:18when she says am I on the radio she's so good it's so good and it's so it's like the perfect encapsulation because what's happening if those of you remember is that Phoebe Rachel has flown to London last minute to try and talk Ross about getting married Phoebe thinks it's a terrible idea she's trying to ring everybody and get through them Phoebe is on her own because she is pregnant both in real life and in the show in her third trimester Like the actress was left out and the characters left out. And she's trying to get through to everybody. And she gets through to Jennifer Saunders eventually.

1:52:49And she's trying to explain or whatever. It's like, I'm here having my brother's triplets and blah, blah, blah. And she's, Jennifer Saunders goes, am I on the radio? So good. But yes. They're radio prank calls. Yeah. They were a thing. They were a thing. They would just call up any member of the public. Yeah. When people's numbers were in the phone book. Crazy. crazy yeah in our lifetime you just go like down a list and remember like being picked up from school and listening to radio crank calls with my mom like it's crazy yeah nuts bananas that that was a thing um yeah so they are a standing up eating steak which jack points out is mental mental and impossible yeah but it's also the whole thing is a grift so that the gellers the gellers yeah the gellers pay for half of this wedding which is funding the like redesign of the wine cellar and all the lawn ornaments yeah yeah um so it is it's a very funny bit but the reception itself is obviously also colored by the fact that emily is not there yeah emily has locked herself in a bathroom but that crucially even if she had been there it's still like quite a weird vibe for a reception to be stand up in someone's house with that kind of food yeah like i can see stand up in someone's house i can see stand up i can you know all of those things but there's nowhere to sit god there's no way to cut your steak have you ever met those english people i remember once being out of the green room at a festival talking to this woman and i was planning my wedding at the time and i was like and she was a bit older than me i was like where did you get married and she was oh at home i was it was like one of those moments where i was like oh you're a countess yeah and you don't mean at home in the way that my yeah in the way that i understand at home to be you mean that you live in a national trust property and your parents still live there exactly yeah whereas i would say in australia um my parents got married at home and my sister is gonna have a like big wedding party when i go back to in november and because you just have space in australia oh of course you do that's the thing that you have it's like outdoor space like we are doing that in her back garden and it's gonna be beautiful in amongst all her plants so there are like versions of that that i believe but not in england in england that really makes that family a very specific type of family yes and they do exist and they live in london they live in London.

1:54:59Yeah, they fully live in London. So I wonder what neighborhood they live in. I know. What kind of house that is. Well, the wedding, the church is in Wapping. Yes. Yeah, it is. So funny that it's in Wapping. So funny that it's in Wapping. And is it like the chapel's important because it was where she grew up? Maybe. So they just live in a massive house in Wapping? I guess they exist. They exist. But yeah, it feels, that feels weird. Yeah. That feels like a weird understanding of London. But that's okay. But that's fine. It's like, it's a thing we're totally fine with. and really what a wedding to be at this is a wedding you would talk about for the rest of yeah yeah yeah this is when everyone's sitting around trading weird wedding stories this is the one that takes the cake it's like okay tell us the one about when you went to that when you went to wedding wedding and like and yeah and you were there when the groom said the wrong name and the bride locked herself in the toilet the entire time and you were eating steak off a plate in the corner surrounded by all your pals would not miss it would love this and I love as well that we get such good Joey in this episode we get such lovely warm the guy you want to travel with Joey so important that he arrives into London and is just like London!

1:56:12London baby! when he's just standing outside Westminster Abbey with Chandler and he's just like this is my favourite Abbey best Abbey I've ever seen best abbey hands down best abbey I've ever seen you're like it's such an important lesson because then he buys the big floppy stupid house off of Richard Branson Richard Branson Virgin sponsored this episode obviously there's so many shots of planes in this episode Virgin planes and the yeah and like he's just being such a heart on his sleeve tourist yes not trying to pretend he's above it that thing that people do when they go to a country and they try to pretend they're from that country suddenly yeah it's like what are you doing you are a tourist like yeah get on board right do the thing and the most like when obviously tourists can be annoying sure we've both i'm australian we know that yeah we've both been tourists in different countries whatever it's not that it's that like the best thing that you have to offer as a tourist is showing somebody who lives in that place already that you think it's magical it's magical and cool and amazing it's a gorgeous energy it's such a great energy i really learned this from doing a lot of book tours and traveling alone yeah like i always begin every talk making sure i say something incredibly specific about the good time I'm having in that specific place and being like I went to that bookshop this afternoon it's great I went to that pub around the corner yeah yeah and it's like that is so right you're so right people love that people love that you know it's like when you call me from Brisbane you're like mate yeah why'd you move the city's amazing and it was a real like love affair moment of Brisbane with me where I was just like you know what seeing it through eyes that didn't grow up there and doesn't have like feelings of like I want to be in England, which I always had.

1:57:48It's a real nice place. It's a lovely place. It's so nice. My hometown of Brisbane. Your hometown of Brisbane. It's so good. But yeah, I think he is such a lovely energy. We also obviously have Monica and Chandler getting together, which is huge in response to the fact that somebody asks if she's Ross's mother. Yes. Some incredibly drunk man asks if she's Ross's mother. You must have been a teenager. When you had him. It's very narratively important, this episode. it is such a big yes like pin in the show it's such a massive moment that ross says the wrong name which is such an interesting choice to to have brought emily in yeah but in the writer's room be like we cannot have her stay around no they break they bring mike in like season eight and it's the right time for like one of the characters to have a person who's not always there but sometimes is but if you marry ross and emily that early yeah she's then a member of the gang and she can't be because these six are the gang and that is the story so i don't know what it would have felt like to watch it that i can't remember like a time where i didn't know what was going to happen well famously people just like hated people hated her right yeah yeah the actress has spoken out a lot right about the miserable friends fans yeah being like no we want him with rachel or we don't want you in this story at all and that's tough really tough but this is the way to do it to do something so massive in this episode so insane that she can fully basically never be in the show again and it's fine yeah yeah yeah yeah it makes total sense And then the added humiliation of going to the airport and seeing Rachel get on the plane.

1:59:36Oh my God. That woman does horror so well. Psychological horror. Just like, I cannot believe this is the, I cannot believe this is what I'm saying. That whole woman was dogs. Oh my God. She was married a year later. She's fine. She's fine. Emily's fine. Emily's fine. But yeah. But yeah, the drama stakes of this wedding could not be higher. It could not be higher. Yeah. They are the highest that it's possible to be. and it feels really like it's important for phoebe as well and that she's pregnant and that's happening but it does feel like a real turning point for all the characters feels like a turning point for rachel it feels like a big turning point for ross definite turning point for monica and chandler yeah and joey not so much but like he's a joy he's a joy yeah you know i think it is it's such a good wedding and i want to be there so much yeah the best one and it's so beautiful and i really do think you're right about the fact that it just it does it has had a massive impact on how we see romantic spaces for ceremonies now and how you want to to decorate a space to be like this is romantic and beautiful in a wedding it was incredibly impactful as well imagine it's still on pinterest boards all around the world yeah of course it does so let's rate this i mean we know it's number one so it's number one ross and emily fomo 10 we want to be in the corner eating state talking about this we want to be like emily's friends fringe friends who are just like what the fuck is going on what a time amazing another tour of the wine cell amazing give me the tour of the wine cellar i want to see what jack and i paid for yeah eight for style because standing up and eating steak in the in the house but it's a 10 for the ceremony like it's a it's an 11 for the ceremony and then narrative it's a 10 yeah yeah yeah so we end up with an average score of 9.33 recurring.

2:01:25This has been so thrilling. This has been so good. And I know we're running out of time and we do have to meet our friends at the pub, our friends. That's true, our friends. But I do want us to wrap up because obviously Friends ends in season 10. Yes. Let's imagine for one moment that there is an 11th season and in that season Ross and Rachel get married. What do we think that wedding would be? Okay. Okay. So I'm thinking one of two ways. When Rachel lies to her dad and says that she is going to marry Ross. When she tells him she's pregnant, he kicks off and she's like, obviously we're getting married.

2:01:57Obviously we're getting married. He calls the plaza. Like that is what's happening at that dinner. He's ordering the chate, whatever it is. Like he is ordering the wine. He is booking the plaza. So there is that version of the wedding. And there is also the version of, we are going to take our closest friends away and we're going to elope. I thought beach wedding because they haven't done beach wedding. I thought, too. I thought, yeah, there's I think that that Plaza one is kind of covered by Monica and Chandler. So I think it's romantic beach wedding, Emma in like a lovely little dress walking down the aisle.

2:02:32Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just and like small. Because I think what it's not is all the Long Island people. No, it's definitely not what it's not. No, I do. And she is shit, right? Because. Yeah. It's it's Rachel. Yeah, absolutely. Fashion wise, she is. What do you think she would have worn? I'm seeing short dress. I think short dress. I think like... You know what I'm thinking? I'm thinking not white. I'm thinking like a blush dress or something, you know? Yeah, a really nice, really nice cut of something. Like, in the latter seasons, she did wear a lot of lovely stuff on shoulders. Yeah. I think... You know, I think Jennifer Austin, she wears a lot of Halston, the 70s designer.

2:03:14I could almost see a halter dress with a low back. Yeah, yeah, lovely. floor length or whatever but still kind of very kind of contemporary looking and whatever and sort of simple with a very sort of 70s line to it yeah sort of it kicks out at the end a bit um but in it in an off-white in like an oyster or a blush or something yeah either back or legs out yeah yeah it's like back yeah i think when with like one extraordinary detail updo for sure updo for sure extraordinary earrings yeah you know oh she'd be so beautiful i'd love another jennifer wedding yeah it'd be heaven but yeah i think she and ross it would be their second wedding wedding it would be ross's fourth wedding i think the beach wedding of it rather than the plaza is the correct thing i think that they they the way that they come together whatever anybody thinks about that whether anybody thinks that it should have been joey like whatever anybody thinks about the romantic story here the way that they come back together is very much like we're not messing around anymore yeah yeah we are not performing this we are together and we are taking this seriously and we are in love and it's the two of us and that's how they kind of end the show is them going like it's us really good it's really nice and i think that then the beach wedding makes a lot of sense go back to barbados when it's not raining yeah right are you in the hamptons lovely no but if it's the hamptons she'd have to invite her family yeah no it's it they're going abroad it's mexico it's something like that you know and a really nice like really nice meal out yeah yeah yeah nobody like nice nice meal out in a restaurant yeah where they know it's a wedding and they treat you special but it's still the restaurant but it's still a restaurant and you're all in like lovely clothes but not a big bridal gown yeah like 20 people yeah really good heaven what do you think the the comedy drama is i just plotted all that what's the whole episode do you think or is that too much to ask no that's such a good after two hours um well i well if it was la Joey's going to be there right so Joey is already living in LA at this point because he's a big movie star now which is I've got to confess to never having watched Joey so I don't know if big movie star is the actual thing that happens he's a working actor in LA so he is like their man on the ground so he's getting things wrong he's getting things wrong the chaos of that is happening Monica and Chandler have like the twins are what?

2:05:41Two? Anna Faris' twins. Yeah, Anna Faris' twins are two or like one and a half. I imagine it's actually not that long before they get married. I kind of think that they're getting married within the next two years. Yeah, yeah. Ross and Rachel. They want to have the same last name before they ever start school. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, big time. I think that's nice for them. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah. And I like that they're going to stay when they were young and dating in seasons two and three, they were very much talking about moving to Scarsdale or moving to like upstate New York. I think Ross and Rachel stay in New York City.

2:06:13Absolutely. In a way that Monica and Chandler don't. I'm doing it. Sarah Jessica Parker is doing it. Yes, exactly. And she, like, she keeps working in big fashion houses. He's, like, lecturing at NYU. Like, they are very New York people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so Emma, like, grows up in the city, which is really nice. And I think Phoebe might stay as well. So that's a nice vibe. I think the drama of the wedding episode will be that Monica is neurotic about not being part of the main gang anymore because they live in Skarsdale. Yeah, yeah. And so it'll be that thing. You know when a friend feels like they're being pushed out and they try and gain more control?

2:06:51Do too much. I'm Rachel's best friend. I'm Rachel's best friend, actually. Yeah, yeah. God, the I'm Rachel's best friend of it all, I think, would be quite hard. I think if you're going to move out of London, you've got to be chic about it. Yeah. That's my feeling. If you're going to move out of New York, you've got to be cool about it. And you've got to come back. You gotta just accept that people will do stuff without you. Yeah, and you gotta be the person who comes back and visits. Can I tell you, as we're wrapping up, this is the great lesson of my 30s. Oh, yeah. The great lesson of my 30s has been that, I remember being of the real, this is a silly thing to think, but I'm sure many people will relate to it, that thing of like, getting kind of prickly if your friends hang out without you, and your friends becoming friends, people you introduce becoming friends on their own volition, and you're like, oh, we're going to the theatre, and you're like, I like the theatre.

2:07:33I like the theatre, why was I not? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know, because we were talking about it in like, We don't think of you every minute of every day. What I have learned in my 30s, as my schedule gets more crazy and my friend's schedules get more crazy, your friends becoming friends reduces the admin of friendship. Totally. If you meet up with your friend and she's like, oh, I saw Kate the other day and she's blah, blah, blah. I'm like, oh, great. Now I know what's going on with Kate. This is lovely. This is like everyone's this loop of lovely people who all know and love each other. Right.

2:08:04I love my friends becoming friends. Yeah. I was such a fan of it. I've only really in the last few years, I've been like, oh, the greatest thing you could hope for is that all your friends become friends. When I was so neurotic about it in the past. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Crazy. I think that there's just that like settling of like, yeah, this is great. We have this great community around us of people who love each other and that's really nice. You know what's so nice about being in your 30s as well and your mid 30s? Is that like, that kind of sense of like, obviously you meet new people all the time and they come in and sometimes you become friends and whatever.

2:08:31But like the sense that like, there's sort of, you know, 50 people who you kind of know and over that and that that's sort of and we're sticking with that we're sticking with that number sort of thing and and i go through phases of just being very close people have seasons they come in and they yeah but they stay in the set they stay in the set like you shake the bottle boards but the the dice remain the same kind of thing and that's been like there's a couple of people who i've reconnected with who i haven't really hung out within five or six years lately like you and i go through seasons where we see loads of each other and then we don't and then we don't because I don't live here so yeah there's like a breathability to my friendships now that I love so much that was a little bit more anxious in my 20s I think yeah I think so because you're so much more aware of like what everyone will move on if I'm not there everyone's going to move on without me and they're going to have this thing that I'm not part of or if I'm not there everyone's talking about me which is also something people grow out of in their 30s as well I mean we still do be talking shit but like but I feel like it's more like out of concern and emotion yeah or just like or just like I haven't seen that person this week give me an update or like I haven't seen that person this month how are they yeah yeah in a nice way in a nice way I really hope that as we go through friends through a lens that we really put the lens on ourselves and our friends

2:09:48exactly this has been heaven Kate I don't know how the day can get better from here but let's try let's try let's try this has been heaven thank you um before we go um tell us about what you've coming up i you will in november be able to pre-order my cookbook called dinner at mine which is coming out on the 12th of march which is about living with a non-nuclear family having a non-nuclear family and it's essentially what to do with various ingredients based on who's around that night whether it's just you or you and one other person or you on a weeknight with some pals or you on a weekend trying to be fancy it's the joey cookbook it's the joey cookbook when you are the joey of the group and it's like people move in and out and there's flexibility here and What am I going to do with a cabbage?

2:10:31Six ideas for a cabbage. Had such an underdone cabbage at a restaurant yesterday. It was like really chewy. It was billed as a crispy hispy. Oh no, you can't. It was not crispy. That takes a while. That takes a while and you've got to give it time. But yes, that is coming out in March. And that is, it's a great joy of my life. It's taken like seven years to write and it's been a real joy. And if you loved our conversation earlier about lesbians and it made you cry, you have a novel. I have a novel called Experienced. Which is a novel about lesbians in Bristol. And I'll make you cry. It remains out.

2:11:05It continues to be out. So yeah, experienced. It is out in paperback and came out in paperback this summer. Kate, this has been phenomenal. A joy. Thank you, Karen. Goodbye. Thank you. Bye, everyone. Bye.

2:11:32Thank you.