Vicky Reynal on money, relationships and how much is enough

0:00Vicky Reynal:Good morning. So this is our first ever face-to-face podcast that we are hosting as Six Degrees. So Six Degrees, I'm the co-founder of with Ollie. And today we have the privilege of having Vicky here. Six Degrees is a purpose-led wealth manager. We spend all of our time partnering with business owners, business leaders and establishing what their purpose is for their wealth, be it post a transaction or an exit of some kind and trying to find out perhaps where purpose is refocused. Our conversations are centred around values, childhood experiences, all of which I know all three of us are super interested in and excited to talk more about.

0:48Vicky Reynal:So excited to get into today. I couldn't think of a better guest to have on our first podcast, Vicky. You're a practicing financial psychotherapist. And we'll get into some details of what that involves. On top of that, you're the author of Money on Your Mind, which is a bestseller from last year. It won the Money Awareness and Inclusion Award in 2024. So congratulations. Thank you. We loved the story. We loved the book. We loved the vignettes you brought in from the anonymised clients and experiences you've had. And we can't wait to delve into this in further detail and hear your insights and views.

1:26Yes. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. I thought we could perhaps start off. Catherine mentioned the word purpose, which is very dear to our hearts and the founders we work with. I'd love to hear about your purpose as a starter and how that mixes with your world as a financial psychotherapist and what you do. Well, to sum it up in a nutshell, my purpose is to help people. And that's what drives my practice as a psychotherapist and what drove me writing the book. I certainly didn't do it for the money, I'll tell you that. But, you know, writing a book was, you know, took a lot out of me. But it was a great opportunity to maybe reach a wider audience than I can help in a weekly therapy practice.

2:14And it's been orienting to have a purpose because when you navigate choices, career choices, different opportunities that come my way, I can use that as the North Star that drives what is most aligned to what I want to do, the kind of person I want to be, and what can be deprioritized. and I can say no to.

2:36Vicky Reynal:In a book we know it's full of stories and experiences and those are the things that we find actually drive the conversations that we have with our families is their experiences both in business but as well with finances and money as they were growing up. I'd be interested to hear how your conversations really highlight some of those considerations and feelings that they've had throughout their childhood and how they bring them into perhaps their adulthood relationships with money. Yeah, so just to give some context, as a financial psychotherapist, basically people come to me because they're struggling with feeling stuck in certain money behaviours that they can change or a complicated relationship with money in which maybe they're being too generous or they can't enjoy money enough or they're constantly anxious about it, no matter how much money they have in their bank accounts.

3:33So something is getting in the way of them having good financial well-being, and that something is emotional. There's something to be understood, meaning to be made out of what does money represent to this person, and what unconscious belief could be sitting in the background driving what they're doing with money. So what we do is we begin to unpack their money story. We start with a problem that they bring in the present and move from there. But often it links back to childhood experiences. And what I found most interesting in the practice and what the book is really focused on is not just the money lessons that we learned or didn't learn growing up, but there's all sorts of non-money related experiences that shape and drive what we do with money in the present.

4:26So to give you some examples, you know, I've seen people who self-sabotage financially, unconsciously, obviously, but they end up in these financial messes. And what's driving that is a particular attachment pattern. So they are maybe insecure in relationships and their way of drawing people closer is to be rescued out of messes of all sorts. And so that could be one way in which something that has nothing to do with finance could be driving what we do with money. Or people who overspend, not because they can't simply manage their impulses, but it might have to do with wanting to belong in a group of people because maybe there's something around identity growing up that hasn't quite been resolved.

5:15something around fitting in in high school or being bullied that has stayed with them as a longing to fit in dress the part and treat people to drink so that they like you more and all sorts so there's all these ways in which early experiences shape what we do now and that's what I try to help the client unpack and reveal so our work is typically with families and that can involve a spouse. It can involve adult children, teenage children. And we think a lot about scarcity and abundance. What are people's experiences growing up? How does that influence their behavior? Would you be able to reflect a little bit on that area?

5:54Yes. So the first thing to say is that the amount of wealth in the family that you grew up with doesn't necessarily lead to one particular outcome. I think it's about reflecting on how scarcity or abundance influenced your view of money, your use of money in the present. So to give you some examples, I've seen people who grew up in scarcity, and that resulted for them in a conscious, constant anxiety about money. So no matter how much they end up changing the circumstances and doing better than their family of origin, they live anxious about money because they know what it feels like at a very visceral level when money is not there and there isn't enough of it.

6:40Other people that grew up in scarcity might take that as kind of the fire in their ambition, what drives them to change their circumstances and never feel like that again. And so, you know, same kind of circumstance, but very different outcome. And the same with wealth. I've seen wealthy people who come from families with a lot of money who maybe make a mess out of their finances because they were never really taught that money is a finite resource. And so they end up spending it freely, not managing it well. They take it for granted. And maybe there is even a sense of entitlement that has stayed with them as a result of growing up wealthy.

7:23Whereas for other people, what that translates into is security and confidence. So maybe they grew up feeling that money isn't a scary topic to talk about. They feel quite comfortable speaking the financial language because they've been around it all their lives. So I think it's what you do with the experience and how it impacted you, reflecting on it, being aware of it and where it can be a weakness and or even a blind spot in some cases in the present. I think that's what matters more.

7:55Vicky Reynal:It makes me think of when we first talk to a family about wealth that they perhaps created, the first thing we know is that they didn't create that business necessarily for the outcome of money. But they feel a huge sense of responsibility when they receive that money, not least because they've perhaps not had that, for example, growing up and their children will be growing up in an entirely different circumstance where there is wealth that is available or could be used in one way or another. Be interesting to hear the conversations that you've had with families where perhaps there has been a difference between the parents and the children and what impact that can have and possibly outcomes.

8:36Yes. And I think the most common worry is that money will spoil children. It will deprive them of drive and motivation. and it's a very interesting question how to manage that because I think the first thing to say is that children can be quite confused growing up with a family where some of the messages are inconsistent with their experience so they might hear you know money doesn't grow on trees and you know it runs out and you know you have to be careful with it but actually the child has no experience of that, what they see is abundance is, you know, they ask, they get. So I think one of the first things that parents can do is be conscious that there will be an inconsistency that will have to be explained.

9:27And there's different ways to explain it, and it has to be age appropriate. But I think there's something about telling the story of the money, you know, how it was made, where it came from. Because I can hear then the adult clients telling me the money stories that they heard their parents say. And stories stay in the families and they can have a great impact. And sometimes it's even, you can go back generations. I've heard clients say, oh, my grandpa made all the wealth and this is how it was made and so on. And I want to be like him one day and so on. So it can be quite aspirational. That would be the first thing.

10:05The second thing would be to be mindful of the example that we set as parents. So one story that comes to mind is a client that has grown up in wealth, wealth made by the parent, but his mother continues to cut napkins in half because they can get more use out of them. And that's obviously a habit that the mother had inherited growing up in scarcity. But she continued to bring along, almost to make a statement to the children that, you know, we can still be frugal. We can still be careful. We can both enjoy money, but also not waste it away when it's unnecessary. But I think we can model these things.

10:54But it's also important to talk about them. Talk about the trade-offs when you make decisions. And the other thing to say is it's all good telling them stories and explaining things, but I think there's something about giving them experiences that will let those messages sink in. So, for example, when it comes to how the money was made, I think it's important that parents talk to their children about what drove them in the business, you know, what satisfaction they got out of working. But why not give the children an experience of that as well? By, for example, leaning into some of the children's interests, whatever it might be, let's say it's baking, you know, why not help them, encourage them to organize a bake sale, for example, and watch them create a project, watch them feel proud of the outcome.

11:47But most importantly, be with them in the middle bit. The middle bit is where children, particularly in families where there hasn't been a struggle, might give up, you know, might, you know, let the project fade. And that's where you can be there as a parent and say, you know, I can see that your interest is fading, but, you know, we need to stick with things. And sometimes we need to do the boring parts as well and teach those lessons about resilience that are important to the parent, will be important to the child, but you can only really learn through experience. I love that. I think that's a really, really insightful and interesting route to teach children.

12:27We've both got young children and we're thinking very much about how we bring money into the conversation. And it sounds like you're saying a bit like running a business or founding a business. It's not about the money. It's about the purpose and the satisfaction and the resilience you have to build to get there and what you can learn on the way. We often talk about how in this country, especially, money is a bit of a taboo subject. And so bringing it up can feel difficult, awkward. Culturally, I don't think we're particularly well equipped from childhood to think about money. So I think bringing it into an experience, I think it's a really nice route to do it.

13:05And I think there's something about giving children an experience of two things. One, the practical managing of money. So, you know, you can give them a weekly allowance rather than just saying yes to their requests and this back and forth of them asking for more so that they can learn the basic skills around managing a budget, you know, spending and then regretting that you've spent it all on one thing. planning you know saving up for something those are kind of important life skills but the second bit which goes to your point is about be with them and the emotional journey of that so when they've spent too much you know maybe they spent all their you know the first three allowances on something you can you can ask them what did that feel like are you are you actually enjoying that piece of lego you bought or or do you wish you had bought something else so that they can become aware of the emotions that have driven their choices.

14:09They can be aware of the emotions that come up after a choice, the regret, the guilt, or maybe even the excitement. You know, what does it feel like to actually enjoy money? Sometimes children hoard it. They hoard their allowance and they find it really difficult to spend it. And you might have a conversation about that. Why are you holding on to it so much? Have you tried buying something? And, you know, the pros and the cons of all those decisions. I think these can be very complex and nuanced conversations, but very helpful. And I think parents sometimes keep it very simple. You know, they just hand over the allowance and then they watch the child do whatever with it.

14:49But I think there is something about helping them reflect about money, which also will make them less afraid about talking about money with their partners when they grow up.

15:01Vicky Reynal:What I love about this is I think sometimes in families, we have a natural assumption that our values will be what our children's values are. And what I love about this is that it's enabling children to create their own values around things rather than instilling our own. And I think that's really important because obviously values underpin each of us as individuals and how and why we do things. And they need to be their own people in the future rather than being what we have created them to be in their values. Yes, that's right. And I think to add to that, I would say there's values and then there's personalities.

15:42And you might watch your children have very different personalities and you can help them reflect on how their personality is impacting their money choices from an early age. I mean, how wonderful to have that opportunity rather than realize age 25 that, you know, a lot has gone on gambling and actually you're quite impulsive and you have an addictive personality that you're only noticing now with real money that will make a difference. Because nobody had pointed that out to you when you were little and you were making small impulse purchases that didn't, you know, break the bank, but maybe broke your little piggy bank.

16:20We work with families in a relatively broad age range, but the average age of our families and clients are around 49, 48 years old. So they're still relatively young and still on a journey of growing their wealth. They've typically gone through at least one business exit and expect to go through more. That is very much their mindset. It is a growth mentality. There will come a point, and for some clients it's happening at the moment, where they will need to turn from growth to spending and to spend what they have created. Do you see challenges around that when it comes to people actually spending the wealth that they've created?

17:02Definitely. Driven by different factors. In some cases, it's what we might call a certain wealth shame. So I think particularly in some families with certain political views or even religious views, there might be a sense that money corrupts, you know, the wealthy might not have been talked about in the best terms. And so when we find ourselves joining that club, how do we feel in response to that? And for some people, this kind of quite deep sense of shame emerges about what will money make me? How will other people see me? Will they judge me? Will they see it as me betraying my values about money?

17:53It needs to be shared and there needs to be more equality and all that. So I think a lot of people struggle with maybe reshaping an identity of themselves as both wealthy and aligned with values that they grew up with and maybe that they still want to hold on to. So I think there is a conversation there that can be had around aligning those things. Other reasons can be less directly related to money. So I've seen people who maybe don't feel deserving of good things, not at a conscious level, but at quite a deep unconscious level. They might have grown up maybe with absent parents or emotionally unavailable parents.

18:44And that attunement with our caregivers in the early years of life really shapes our sense of being good enough and feeling deserving of good things. And when we're lacking in that sense, then we might become adults who are in different ways anorexic. You know, we might deny ourselves the good things that money can buy because we don't think we're worthy of it. So I think there can be different sources to why it might be difficult to spend at a surface level also. And I think it's a very real and common reason why people struggle with it is we might not be used to spending the new numbers that we can spend on money.

19:31And that might trigger just simply guilt. You know, why pay so much for a haircut, for example, when I can get it for 10 pounds? And it might feel difficult to adapt to a new financial reality. And it might even feel a betrayal to our family or families or friends that might still be in a different financial circumstance than us.

19:56Vicky Reynal:You hit the nail right on the head there, Vicky, with a few comments. One of the things that we hear very frequently is, I don't know as a family how the impact of what we spend will impact our friendships. And perhaps our friendships aren't in the same level of wealth bracket that we are. And we don't want it to impact that. We also can't talk freely about it. And that creates a barrier for us in our true friendships as well. Yes, I've seen clients who've kept it secret from their friendship group, fearing a sense of isolation. I mean, as human beings, one of the biggest needs that we have is the sense of belonging.

20:43And becoming suddenly wealthy can really threaten that and leave us feeling very afraid of isolation. The other fear that is adjacent is the fear of envy. Will our friends be able to handle it? Will they be able to manage their envy in a good enough way that will not ruin the good relationships we have? So I think those are very valid and difficult worries to manage.

21:15Vicky Reynal:I think the other one is, is there any expectation of us because we are in that situation that is placed inherently on a family, which is interesting. And the fear of exploitation, right? Will everyone now just want to hang out with me because I can't afford, I don't know, the membership at that new club and whatever it is. So that's in the mix too, yeah. Do you see, you know, when people go through large wealth creation events, do you typically see behavioral change or is that a trigger for them coming to you and asking for your help? so um what i've seen is definitely an emotional earthquake resulting from kind of sudden wealth creation and it's interesting because a lot of people i mean you'd expect it to be a moment of celebration and and joy but actually very often it's also a moment of mourning you're mourning the loss of your baby, you know, this business that you've put your hard work in for so long that it's more than just the hours you put in.

22:27It might be the sense of identity that it carried for you. It becomes a container of a lot of things of purpose, as you said, a sense of identity, of belonging. What about all the people that you have spent day and night with for years to build this business and who now are going to, what, become friendships or distance? You know, there's a lot of things to let go of or to more positively, you know, think about how are you going to preserve some of these things or redirect them? How are you going to maybe more intentionally preserve some of the friendships that were created along the way? Where else can you find a sense of purpose now that you have had to let this big project go um so i think it's about now everybody will be coming to you with a glass of champagne to celebrate but what about um who is going to listen to the sadness that is involved and and that sometimes people might find difficult to empathize with because what have you got to be sad about how you just became a millionaire yeah

23:36Vicky Reynal:I think that's the time when actually space and reflection is really important, not necessarily jumping into a relationship with, for example, a financial advisor. We always talk about the importance of reflecting what's important for you now. What do you want to think about? Big decisions can be made at this point in time, but you can hold on those. You don't have to make those tomorrow. or invariably people think about buying a property, for example. But actually, I think taking time to take a holiday or just take some time out from a headspace perspective is really, really important. Not least to refocus what that purpose might be.

24:17Vicky Reynal:And the wealth can then facilitate what that purpose can be. And we believe that's a fundamentally important conversation about how can your wealth now facilitate what your new purpose or even extend what your purpose was previously, but embody your values at the same time. Yeah, I completely agree with that. And I think there's something also about preparing for that. So as you say, one good piece of advice is don't jump into decisions the day after, but also how are you going to prepare for that? And I know it's hard because in the lead up to the sale of a business. There's just so much to go to manage and to handle.

24:58You don't have space to go to therapy, but maybe that's exactly the space you need to create so that you don't come crashing down the day after. And so I think it's something to think about. I'd love to extend this a little bit, this discussion about businesses and founders, because if we take a slight change of tack, Catherine and I came together to build Six Degrees. most business and startups these days tend to be multi-founder led it's quite rare to find single founders these days and everyone comes to that table and comes to that business with like in a family with their own emotional money history emotional baggage that comes into the relationship and we've talked quite a lot about that haven't we and we both have siblings ourselves and our relationship is sometimes compared with that we're aware of that how how our relationships with our siblings interplay to our relationship as founders.

25:52And I wonder what advice you could give to founders starting out or starting out a new venture with a new team, perhaps, in terms of creating awareness and creating a space where people can explore their emotional history with money and how that might impact the business. Yeah, I love this question because you're absolutely right. Sometimes we recreate sibling dynamics and work environments. There is actually one of the examples in the book is of somebody who co-founded a business with friends and what they found and the reason why they came to therapy is that they kept pouring their own personal money into the business and and they knew that it wasn't the right thing to do other partners hadn't put so much skin in the game why what was driving this and actually this particular person was the youngest in a string of siblings.

26:44And so they grew up in an environment which they weren't really taken seriously. They were the last one to reach the kitchen counter or to be able to recite the seven times table. So they went into this feeling that everybody else has more to bring to the table than I do. And so they had something to prove. And their way of bringing value was financial. And so we really needed to take a step back from this and say, well, let's test some of these beliefs. Is it true? Or is it just that you're experiencing these partners the same way you experienced your family? And maybe these feelings belong to back then and they don't need to belong to the present.

27:27And so I think the first thing to do is to look honestly at ourselves, at the role that we tend to take in friendship groups. So we all have a voice in our minds that might provide quite a colorful commentary to ourselves when we're going through our day. What if we start to notice that? What insecurities is it flagging, pointing out? Is there something that we feel we need to prove or compensate for? And all of those insights can really help us be conscious of how we're presenting and what we need to change in order to present ourselves differently.

28:09Vicky Reynal:I think that self-reflection is really interesting when it comes to big decisions that are made, not least in a business, but also when founders have left a business and what comes next. And I think you can see that sometimes that money can drive big decisions and that emotional overlay actually needs to you need to take a step back and say what what is the emotional overlay that's coming with that big decision that I'm making and who's it going to impact I think that's a really good takeaway from them yeah and I mean should money drive uh those big decisions I think it definitely needs to be part of the things that we consider And again, this is about not letting feelings blindly drive money choices, but for us to see them and take them into account to the extent that we want to so that we can make more informed choices.

29:02So I think some of the big decisions like, I don't know, buying homes or choosing public or private schools for the children, they can be highly emotional and definitely financial choices. But we can be mindful of where those two things intersect. So are we being too emotional about something? Are we maybe not considering trade-offs in a helpful way? are we jumping into conclusions instead of really getting to the core of, you know, why is private school important? What am I afraid my child will miss out in public school? How else could I give them that experience? Because one of the things that people often forget to consider are the emotional trade-offs.