Gemma Newman - How Plant-Powered Wellness can Redefine Your Health

0:01I am so glad you could join us. I'm your host, Mo Gaudet This podcast is nothing more than a conversation between two good friends sharing inspiring life stories and perhaps some nuggets of wisdom along the way This is your invitation to slow down with us Welcome to Slow Mo

0:34Welcome back. My guest today is the plant power doctor, the name of her first book, Dr. Gemma Newman, who specializes after 20 years practice of medicine in sort of holistic healing. If you if you think about it, she's a very, very big advocate of the idea that plant food, a balanced plant food diet would take you a very, very long way. as all of you know I'm newly married and my wonderful wife actually wants me to live a long life interesting so yeah good sign and so I'm very very keen on having a healthy life Dr. Newman's new book is called get well stay well I have not actually read it because I wanted to learn it from her and this is my copy now lovely signed for me get well stay well I think is a very good idea I think it would please my wife.

1:26So that's going to be the conversation for us today. How to get well and stay well. Gemma, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for allowing me to challenge this a little bit, if you don't mind, at the beginning. Okay, so I really want to get well and stay well. I really do. But some people tell me because I'm a man and in my 50s, I need to eat a lot of protein and work out with heavy lifting. Others will tell me, no, no, no, no, know it's plant-based and don't ever stress your joints some people will tell me take your supplements some others will tell me don't take your supplements i think there is a bit of the truth in all of them okay but you know every one of them will be a very strong advocate for what they believe so can we start from why plant food why do you think that's the answer so hello mo thank you for having me i'm so happy to be here with you and i know that your wife is going to be very happy once you've read this book.

2:20Yes, she's actually quite conscious around what she eats. So inspiring, to be honest, because in previous relationships in my life, I would be told what to eat. Interesting. She sets an example. So she eats really healthy. And in a very interesting way, I'm like, I can do that. It actually looks delicious. So she inspires you through action and through her own example, rather than telling you what to do. Yes, we men don't like to be told what to do. I don't think anyone likes being told what to do. I've learned that in 20 years of clinical practice. It's a harsh lesson to learn when you're a young doctor and you think that you know everything and you think that you've learned all the things there are to learn.

3:03And if you follow the protocols, then your patients are going to get better if they just listen to what you have to say. Yeah. And the hubris of that, the arrogance. I mean, yeah, I had it too. 20 years ago but over the course of time I've realized that it's really only through listening observing and giving people space to think about how they want to actually make steps towards a better future can you facilitate that but you asked me about plants so that's an interesting story. I think my first question for you would be, where do you look for information about health and nutrition? What's your first port of call right now?

3:47If you were to actually think about, well, what do I trust? Who do I ask? Where would you go? On the spot. I normally learn everything from YouTube, believe it or not. YouTube. And then followed by books. So when I find someone who, I don't go to the silly YouTube videos but I you know you can find a lot in podcasts and YouTube expert videos that are a mind opener for me and then when I see someone that is actually impressive in what they say or they have a point I'll then read the books right yeah so that's that's a good strategy and in addition to that I think for somebody who doesn't necessarily have your starting point the strategy may be flawed because they will be looking on YouTube at all sorts of other things and they'll be looking for things that give them an emotional attachment.

4:37There's a hook. A clickbait. A clickbait. And of course, you know, that's human nature. Yeah. We do do that, but it can lead us down the wrong path sometimes, or at least the path that is not as evidence based. and in life and in science we struggle to create frameworks that help us to be guided in the right direction but we have to start somewhere yeah and so the scientific method is essentially a way of aiming to reduce uncertainty and when you perform trials you're asking yourself a question you're creating a hypothesis and you're testing the hypothesis so it's helpful to look at studies because regardless of how they're financed and who's running them, there is a peer review process in order for that study to be published.

5:27And of course, then you look at the reputableness of the journal. You see, OK, what colleagues endorse this journal? What colleagues are editors of this journal? Could this be something that's trustworthy? And then you start to build up a pattern and a picture of consistent information. So rather than just thinking, oh, there's an outlier, they're saying something different and interesting. you think that's different and interesting is there any kind of consensus before that that we could look upon to see is that a logically consistent route now if you've got the greatest thinkers of the 17th 18th 19th 20th century then they're usually independent thinkers that come up with something brand new but there's usually been a consistent sort of theory that they build on in order to get to that place.

6:14In nutrition studies, it's a wild west on YouTube. It's a wild west on Instagram. Everywhere. Everywhere. If you go to a personal trainer, it's a wild west. If you go to a nutritionist that is different than your last nutritionist, it's a wild west. It is. And so it's really challenging. And I do feel sorry for people trying to navigate this. But my advice is to look for peer review and consistency across a number of different modalities of study. So when it comes to nutrition you look yes at mechanistic data it's interesting it creates hypotheses then you look at you know studies on a sort of small scale and again that creates more of a hypothesis that you're building on and then you look at epidemiological data data on humans over large populations to see does this play out not just in mice but could this actually be applicable to the human body and when you put all the different types of information together that's when you can build a picture that seems broadly accurate.

7:12And that's what scientists aim to do when they're creating guidelines. I love this conversation so much. Oh, good. That's exactly my view of the world. Right. So when you look at the World Cancer Research Fund, they look at hundreds of studies and they say, okay, the cornerstone of a cancer-preventing diet is a diet rich in fruits, vegetables, whole grains and legumes. Okay, we have a consensus. When you look at the World Health organization they talk about how processed meat is a class one carcinogen because there is enough study data from hundreds of studies to show that it is definitely carcinogenic okay we have a broad focus of evidence there when you look at the american college of cardiology they say a plant based diet is one of the number one things you can do to prevent risk of heart disease which is the biggest killer here in the uk it's the biggest killer in the us it is i think globally the number one right yeah and you start to build up a picture which is not one person saying one thing about their supplement or one person saying one thing about their macronutrient you're building a picture when you look at the blue zones of the world dan butner's journalistic research on all the little pockets of the world that have the highest amount of human longevity the cornerstone of their diet is a plant-rich diet plant-predominant diet and in some cases a plant exclusive diet That's one of the things that they have in common.

8:32When you look at diabetes guidelines, Royal Colleges and the American College of Clinical Endocrinology, they talk about how plant-based diets can be amazing for preventing type 2 diabetes. And so you look at all these different areas and you realize that the broad consensus of people who actually study the data is actually very consistent. But you look at these shiny influencers or these people who like to clickbait content and you sort of feel doubtful because you think, well, why are they saying this different thing? Is someone trying to hide something from me? And that's, again, another part of the human psyche.

9:12They'll say, oh, this is what your doctor's not telling you. This is what, you know, this is what the pharmaceutical industry is trying to hide from you. Well, really? Or are you just trying to get clickbait? Correct. I mean, in a very interesting way, I think you're spot on. Are you saying I should not get my info from you? I'm saying you have to think. Yeah, you have to be discriminative in terms of what you let in. But here's the question. The question for me is, you're absolutely right. It's almost a no-brainer when you think about it. But at the same time, you know, if the objective is different.

9:46So I was mostly plant-based, mostly. I only allowed myself to have milk in my coffee and I ate fish like once every two weeks for 24 years of my life almost, right? And then I started at the time, I know I don't look at anymore, but I was very athletic in my mid 40s, worked out really, really hard. And I started to use those apps that allowed me to measure, you know, my diet and my different nutrition intake. And I remember vividly like two and a half months in, I worked out really hard that day. So I had three protein shakes. And then on the third one, the app said, you've just met your protein requirement for the day.

10:27I was like, what? So I haven't met my protein requirements for the last 24 years, right? Which is quite interesting. I started to study that. And of course, as a man, right, you want to have muscles, but also in general, we all want to have muscles for our joints to not to carry very much load. There are talks about the fact that you need some fish oil or something like that to be able to, you know, allow your masculine side and testosterone to be increased. And, you know, you need this vitamin D that doesn't come from this, but comes from that. And so, yes, you're right. It seems to be clear to me, like, if your target is to not be diabetic and not to have a, you know, cancer in the long term and so on, plant-based seems to be scientifically provable, right?

11:09But then with other objectives, you need to eat a cow a year or something like that. You know what? Even if you did eat a cow a year, that's not actually as much as what a lot of people eat. Is that true? Yeah. Oh my God. You know, I think it's around 70 billion land animals are killed every single year for us to consume. I know the number. Yeah, yeah. It's more or less. Yeah, yeah. And just think about that for a minute. I mean... It's 10 cows per person. And for those of us who don't eat that much, then it's probably 12, 15 cows per person. Right. Unbelievable. Yes. So we just really need to take a step back and think, how much cow do we actually need?

11:51And do we need a cow at all? No, hold on. I actually think it's because they count birds into that, right? Yeah. But it's still incredibly high when you think about it. It is. It's incredibly high. And I think what makes me interested is, you talked about the psychology of men and the importance of muscle and masculinity. And I think that's one of the major things that really actually plays into the narrative around eating plants not being good for men. Because somehow, you know, you have to be a man, you have to kill the animal, you have to hunt. No, please no. I don't see many men out there stabbing cows and I'd be quite concerned if I did.

12:31So I think there is a lot of storytelling actually around our relationship with meat. right from, I guess, the beginning of human origins, really. Because even from the beginning, I would say, looking at the data from what Neolithic man used to eat, looking at fossilized poo, essentially, gives you a really good indicator of the fiber content of the diet. And it was extremely high. We were definitely more gatherers than hunters, for sure. Of course. I mean, you have to think about it. You'd capture something every week and feed the entire tribe. It's definitely not. They didn't have cold cuts in the morning and salmon at night as taken for lunch.

13:20They didn't. They didn't. And when you look at the warriors of the Roman Empire, I understand that there was a lot of grains being eaten. They were the strongest. and the chia seeds became the massively valued protein source of the ancient Aztecs. I just think we need to maybe take a step back from the Western narrative and also in some ways, I know I'm sort of going slightly off course here, but I look at the monotheistic religions. You know, you look at the origins of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. You know, there's this whole, especially Judaism and Christianity, There's this whole lamb of God, the slaughter, the necessity of sacrifice.

14:04Oh, you think they set the industry off? I think there's definitely some subconscious programming in our minds about the sacrificial lamb as being something that is really important for us and our redemption. But then you look at Eastern religions and you see a very different picture. Anyway, I know that's not where we're going with this. No, no, no. We go anywhere. This is actually quite interesting. I never thought of that at all. But definitely the same sacrifice, the Abraham sacrifice, I think is really. Of his own son. Yeah. I mean, that's available in Islam as well, right? Yeah. And, you know, I think of my Muslim friends and many of them will actually sort of use the argument of, but God said eat meat.

14:48But did God actually say to eat meat? This is the interesting thing. In fact, there's a new film coming out, which I think you might find very interesting. It's called Christ Spiracy. And it's about our relationship with the scriptures, not just Christianity, all religions. So it's not one particular. So I read a book that was incredibly valuable called The History of God. I don't remember the name of the author. She was a priest of some sort, a Christian priest. And then she became atheist and came back to Christianity. and and she speaks about the history she calls it the history of god of course you know if you're a believer there is no history to god god is not time-based but but in her view it's the whole idea of how religious faith would affect the next religious faith yeah so so you know you could see some clear signs of the book of dead of the pharaonic religions into the judaism and you know the the whole idea of afterlife and you know the torture and all of that and then you can see that in Islam because Prophet Muhammad came in Medina and Medina was really populated by Jews.

15:54And it's, you know, you can see the deities of Hinduism in Buddhism, just looking a little more Chinese and different colors. And you can easily start to track those things. And it's quite interesting. And I think it's interesting to see the relationship between Sikhism and then you've got Shintaism as well, because Sikhism obviously came from the prevailing Hindu and Muslim. Yeah, it's a very interesting, yeah. But then, you know, they created another monotheistic faith. It is fascinating. I love to. I love studying religion, actually. I do too. I mean, my approach to it, though, is that even if some of it doesn't land well with me, I stick to the parts that land well.

16:36You know what I mean? Like the Baha 'is. You're a Baha 'i by nature. Is that true? Yes. Oh, the Baha 'is do that? They do that. No, I didn't study Baha 'ism, actually. I had a friend that told me I should, and I didn't. So what do they do? Do they take what's good from every religion? Essentially, yes. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's what I do. I call it the fruit salad religion. Well, it's Baha 'i. You should be Baha 'i. Is that true? I'm going to study it then. Yeah, I mean, in a very interesting way, if I gave you a basket of apples and two of them were bad, you don't throw the whole basket, right? Exactly.

17:05You keep the good bits. You keep the good bits. And there are so many good bits everywhere. So, yeah. And that's very interesting because I guess that draws us back to the previous part of our conversation around the scientific method. You draw out the good bits. exactly i was going to go there i was going to go there because as as a scientist myself i i also see the faults of the scientific method right so i think there is the religion of darwinism which is totally dealt with in the uh in the in the scientific uh community as a as a face it's like if you're not a darwinist we're not going to publish you yeah it's interesting isn't it yeah And I had a guest here.

17:43Although he was Christian, wasn't he? I don't know, actually. No, so I had a guest here, Dr. Stephen Meyer, which I think was one of my favorite conversations, who wrote a book called The Return of the God Hypotheses. He wrote several times Darwin's Doubt, the Universe in a Cell or something like that. And he was discussing that whole idea of the religious Darwinism. And even Darwin himself had doubts, but that they were removed from the scriptures. if you want and then you know it's really interesting which i think is really what we're talking about here again i mean veganism for some is a religion you can see it's well it's actually protected um under the human rights um convention as a belief system is it yes because um well i mean there's a lot of prejudice against the concept of veganism and there's a lot of interesting psychology around why that would be but essentially if you did say it was a religion then my hypothesis would be that it's a religion of minimizing harm and that's essentially quite like jainism actually so that's very true actually yeah yeah so really the tenets of of veganism are very similar to those of jainism in that the ultimate aim is wherever practically possible you're reducing harm jainism is a sect of what well it originated in india so it's it's very much connected to hinduism um and those kinds of ways of thinking but they are they are very much more focused on ahimsa which is uh the concept of essentially minimizing harm and and living with compassion um yeah yeah i know i know someone who told me her mom went to jainism yeah and the practice is so strict that you don't harm anything at all yes i mean obviously you can you can be a jain and not be somebody that sweeps the floor looking for ants but that's that's the sort of trope i think that's that's the very that's what people think of if they think of jains is that they're literally sort of desperately trying not to touch or harm anything at all but you can be jane and not have those sort of specific um practices and rituals but yeah it basically is it really aims to minimize harm and live with compassion which i think most people if you really thought about it would would would understand and would get behind but there's a lot of um i think there's a lot of cognitive dissonance that gets in the way of being able to do that I want to go there but I'm so keen now to know where do you get all of that spiritual study from is that part a big part of you it's a big part of me yeah always always yeah I I've always felt

20:45different hello yes we can relate yes so I've always felt that there was something greater than myself and that I was part of something beautiful and loving and that I needed to express that beauty and love in some form and that would pretty much be the purpose of my existence which is a weird thing to say honestly at all it's the only thing to say maybe it's the only thing to say? A true video gamer will guarantee you that this is it, really. So you see, the idea is if when you're stuck in a video game, you only think about the events that are presented to you on the screen. You never really zoom out and say, but I'm not in the screen.

21:36I'm actually sitting on a sofa outside the screen, outside the mess, right? And there is a game console that I have control There are other beings in that realm that are not in the screen, right? And when you see it that way, suddenly you realize that if you spend your whole life looking at the screen and navigating the game, you're missing the point. Yes. You're missing the point. The point is much bigger than your physical form. Yes, the point is much bigger, much bigger. But you have to play the game. but that also takes i mean if you don't mind me being a podcaster here the point is much bigger for me it's also much bigger for the chicken and the cow and so you know in a very interesting way their physical forms are not really the big deal if you if you think about it some people will say that the answer they are sort of non-player characters in the game you know they're they're there to provide nutrition for you that's what some people say yeah but yeah i mean for me I don't know, when you watch footage of how your food is made.

22:44Oh, that's a different story altogether, yeah. You know, you see it. You see it. You see the fear. You see the blood. You see the screams. You hear the screams of the pig as they're going into the gas chamber. That's not something I want to be a part of. So that to me, I think, is a very different story than the nutrition value. Yes. So if you really think of our whole wholesome existence as physical and spiritual, as the oneness of all of us, that idea of some of us consuming the rest of us is a very interesting concept to think about. Yes, it is. And I wonder what that does. I can't say that this is part of the scientific chat because it's not something within the realms of science, but I do wonder what it does to us energetically when we consume fear.

23:49Because you are quite a speaker with that pause there. That is quite interesting, actually, because we're not just consuming the physical matter. or consuming the energetic, you may have just changed a lot of people with that statement. I hope so. I don't think people think about that. But this to me is a question of the industry, not a question of the concept, wouldn't you agree? I mean, in a very interesting way, if you raised a lamb and it roamed free and it lived to be five or whatever, I don't know how long they live, and then eventually you consumed it. Lambs don't live till five. They're babies.

24:35I don't know. Sheep, sheep. Lambs go into sheep. So lamb is only a baby. Is that true? Yes. You're always eating a baby when you eat lamb. Holy cow. Holy lamb. Holy lamb. The sacrificial lamb. So, yeah, sheep, whatever. Yeah. I don't eat red meat myself. guys by the way everyone listening we're not advocating anything here we're just we're just chatting yeah we're just chatting yeah it is it's an interesting point but once again some people will tell you this is part of the design of being human i mean you look at scientific evidence of our molars and the way our teeth are and the need for us to get animal protein and so on and so forth and you'll say this is part of the design so i never like talking about sort of how we're supposed to eat because i think that draws people into an argument of me telling people what to do which i don't like to do and i also think that when we look at our teeth and our dentition there's something interesting about our teeth and that is the way that we can move our jaws from side to side.

25:48Generally speaking, omnivores tend to move their jaws up and down, but they can move side to side. Herbivores always have to move their jaws side to side. Carnivores always have to move their jaws up and down. We don't eat like lions, although many men think that they'd like to be like lions. We don't eat like a lion. We don't eat raw we don't tear our food up limb from limb with our mouths we don't eat with our jaws going up and down we have to prepare the meat we have to cook the meat we have to get the best nutrients from the meat by cooking it and we have to chew from side to side like ruminants i'm not saying we are ruminants we're not but it's interesting that there's so many sort of absolutist arguments on both sides correct and i never like to get into those arguments because ultimately i can see logically that as humans we've really survived by eating anything and everything that we could within our place of origin so inuits would eat fish and seals and whales not because they were the best for longevity but because that's what they could eat and you know if you lived in the african savannah you'd eat a lot of tubers and you'd eat a lot of grains and you'd eat a lot of vegetables and fruits and you'd eat a little bit of meat here and there when you could get it because that's where you were so I think it's helpful to look away from what we think we should eat because as humans we basically just eat whatever we can to survive we need to start thinking about well what do we need to eat to actually thrive and that's where longevity comes in and that's where looking at populations of people that have lived an extremely long time come in because they've lived well past the need to reproduce that's where we should be looking really for our information about how to live long rather than thinking of this is what our ancestors used to eat so i'm with you actually following really well you say it so well but the question then in in the supermarket era where we can find anything we have to make a choice we have to make a choice bottom line what's your recommendation what's ultimate choice ultimately eating as many unprocessed plants as you possibly can.

28:04When we look at the Western world with our supermarkets and our packaged foods, we look at the biggest causes of death. There's four, four biggest causes of death, heart disease, diabetes, cancer and lung disease. 80 % of deaths, premature deaths in the world happen because of those four things. How do we do that? How do we prevent that? Well, there's four ways. There's four ways of preventing that. Eating a plant-predominant diet, not smoking, sensible use of alcohol, and moving your body. 80 % of those 80 % of causes of premature death can be resolved by doing those four things. Just think about that for a minute, let that sink in.

28:50If we know this, why aren't we doing this? And interestingly, the number one thing out of those four is eating a plant predominant diet it's the most powerful of those four what's predominant what do you mean by that i mean you don't have to be a vegan i am vegan by choice by choice philosophical reasons more than just diet yes i feel as though my priority is human health i became a doctor years ago i love people i want to help people so always my priority is human health however I wanted to widen my circle of compassion because I there's no scientific reason why I couldn't I didn't need to eat animals so I chose not to but I appreciate that's not a choice everybody else wants to make and when you look at what the vast majority of science says it's it's plant predominant whether that means 85 or 100 eat as many plants as you possibly can is what it means.

29:51So that's probably my number one piece of dietary advice. And then everything else can sort of be more specific from there. But what you're aiming to do with that is increase the diversity of plants, increase the colours, the varieties and the quality if you can. But really, most of the studies we have show it doesn't have to be organic, it doesn't have to be local, it can just be more plants for the win, really. That's it. Try and keep it very simple. But you say whole plants, right? So it's not something processed from a bag. It is, you know, a carrot. Yes. And there's also benefit from having minimally processed plants too.

30:33So for example, tempeh and tofu are minimally processed soybeans and they are extremely healthy. Just because there is some element of processing doesn't mean that it's inherently unhealthy. Ultra processed foods, I would argue, are mostly inherently unhealthy. But there is a certain element of processing that can happen looking at the NOVA classification, which is actually probably beyond the remit of our conversation. But some element of processing is fine. But ultimately, you want to have as many unprocessed as you can. Okay. Very specific question, because this is my podcast and I always turn it into my session.

31:10Well, you can ask me whatever you want. I mean, most of my listeners, I don't know if it's selfish of me, but I always ask questions related to me. Right. So I get this longevity side of it. But I have to say openly, the best I've ever felt now and previously is when I worked out reasonably well. OK. And I ate enough protein to generate muscles. Yes. OK. And the struggle with plant based protein is that you have to eat a lot of things. in the process to get enough protein. And I think the real argument is people will say one gram of protein for every kilogram of body weight on a normal day and two grams of protein almost for every kilogram of body weight, which in my case would be 170, 180 grams of protein a day, which you can never get from plants.

32:05So we look at the amount of protein that we need for longevity and we look at the amount of protein we need for muscle building. And for most people with a plant-predominant diet, it's possible. I get what you're saying. When you're eating a plant-based diet, you tend to have the protein attached to other macronutrients like fiber. Fiber and carbs and sugar and other stuff. So with that in mind, I think it's also helpful to think about, well, yes, we need protein for muscle building, absolutely. And it's especially important for when you get into the years where it's harder to build muscle. and it's important to be mindful of protein.

32:43But there are ways to do it. Are you saying I'm old? Yes, I am. But there are ways to do it. I'm saying for anyone over the age of 40, really. But there are definitely ways to do it. And you can always, you see stories of people, I mean, you've probably seen that guy at the gym who's really muscly and looks amazing and feels great, but then drops dead of a heart attack. Correct, 100%. So I think it's important to look at both muscle strength, bone mineral density and dietary patterns. Well, I say both, that's three things, but look at them all together and decide where your comfort zone lies. How muscly do you want to be?

33:25How much bone mineral density do you want and how long do you want to live? So there's no doubt that resistance training is important for bone mineral density and muscle strength. So whatever your dietary proclivities, resistance training is brilliant and thoroughly recommended because that ticks all the boxes. It helps you with longevity. It helps you with muscle maintenance and growth. And it helps you with bone mineral density. Plant-based diets will definitely help you more with longevity. There's no doubt about that. Lots of studies to show more plant proteins versus animal proteins is going to essentially lead you to a potential longer life.

33:59So your question is, well, how do I get enough protein from plants? It's just a bit of planning, really. You know, things like tofu, tempeh, beans, lentils, chickpeas. These are good sources of protein, especially tofu. I think there's a lot of bad rap for soybeans for some reason. But they're amazing. And you can use those silken tofu you can use for salad dressings. You've got to think of ways you can sneak more protein. Nuts and seeds as well have got great amounts of protein and monounsaturated, polyunsaturated fats, which are amazing for longevity. but yes i mean it's definitely imminent so eminently possible to get enough protein on a plant-based diet but you do need to plan it especially if you're wanting to build bulk as well and then the question of longevity is very clear more plants for the win yeah but i mean i'm so i'm googling now chickpeas let's say so a hundred grams of chickpeas you wouldn't just have chickpeas though you have a little bit of mix and match going on look up scrambled tofu Okay, so chickpeas is eight, say nine grams.

34:58Okay, scrambled tofu. Can I just do tofu? Oh yeah, just do tofu. Because you can have, you could have tofu in your smoothie in a form of soy powder. So you can have like, you know, you get those protein powders. Yeah. So this is a very good question, right? Let's put the numbers together. So tofu is high in protein, 17 grams per 100 grams. Chicken breast, for example, is 31 grams. So you have to eat double the amount of tofu per weight. Yes. It's not that actually that big of a difference when you really think about it. When you actually look at the amount, it's not. Yeah, I mean, 17 from 31, it is almost, you know, it's not double, but it's close to 80 % more.