Can We Get Better at Flirting … with Rejection?

22:38Can we do a role play? Sure. Okay. But that's what I asked him after the podcast, too. So what is, let's role play. You teach me how to go from a B to an A. We'll be right back after the break. It's me. I'm never going away. Guys, this is a perfect time to send this episode to your crush or to your most flirtatious friend. and make sure that you are following, subscribing to Smart Girl Jump Questions wherever you listen to or watch the show. By the way, speaking of HR-approved flirting, I want to know your questions as it relates to all things work. We're actually going to be doing a six-part Smart Girl Jump Questions series on what even is work in a time where it's everywhere and nowhere all at once.

23:15The series will be brought to you by Zoom, but I really want to explore all kinds of questions about why we work, how we work, and what it looks like five, 15, or 50 years from now. So send me your questions, follow the show, send this to your crush. Back to the episode.

23:32Okay. So let's pretend that we're not doing a podcast because it wouldn't really be something necessarily appropriate for this setting. Okay. But let's just pretend, like pretend that you are interested in me romantically. Like, you know, something that you want to explore. Okay. So what would be your strategy? My strategy? Yeah. How would you go about that? I would wait for you to come to me. That's so sad. Oh, okay. That's really, okay. So that's a very good - But I would be coy, kind of like I did with Diplo, where I was like, every guy I dated, so Diplo who's not a guy I date, I kind of knew that he would give me something there.

24:08Yeah. Okay. So that's a good idea, right? You know, you drop those hints, maybe mention that you're single, maybe you mention that you're looking, maybe, you know, things like that are good. But actually, but what I want to just, you know, point out what you just said is that you probably just wait for me to come to you. Yeah. Which is what I hear from people, I'd say 90 % of the time. Women. Like women in particular, like, and because a lot of women will ask me, well, where should I go to meet men? And I'm like, okay, we can talk about, we can, you know, we can get into that strategy depending on like your lifestyle and bubble, all the things.

24:43But the question that I want to ask first is what would you do if you saw somebody, if you were just. Oh, if I just saw it, if you were out in the wild. Yeah. Okay, so let's just like, let's set the scene. Yeah. We're at Trader Joe's. Yeah, perfect. Because we're not at Whole Foods. We're not, you know, we're not overpaying for Amazon Prime stuff. We're just, we're together, sponsored by Amazon Prime. I'm just kidding. We're there and we're shopping. Yeah. And you're picking up the cauliflower rice. Yeah. I would probably be like, oh my God, they have the cauliflower rice? They're always sold out.

25:15Okay. That's what I would do. I mean, that's a good, look, this, like I said, But I want, like, saying something is a flirtation style. It's maybe you got to now do more, right? Well, I would say that. What would you say back to me? And I, if I, so if you said, oh, my God, they have a cauliflower rice. I'd be like, yeah, I know. I'm so excited. Like, I'm going to get two of them. And I'd be like, oh, what else do you have in your cart? You know, we could start there. Like, why are you cooking for two? Be like, no, but I can. See? Yeah. That's desolate. That's where we would go, right? Yeah. And this would be appropriate.

25:47This would totally be appropriate. Yeah, I think it's humor. It's humor. It's not like, I'm not saying like, you know, come over to my apartment right now and I want to, you know. Well, I kind of thought you were telling me to do that, but yes. Come yourself. You don't want to be like. We're only 15 minutes into this podcast. You don't want to be, you know, you don't want to be too, you don't want to make anybody uncomfortable. No. By going too far too quickly, especially in a setting like Trader Joe's, or maybe you're like, you're like, oh my God, I don't know. We were talking about cauliflower rice and now I'm on a date.

26:17I don't know what just happened. Yeah. But I mean, I think it's just that. It's just like, okay, what's the opportunity? It's like in improv, like in an improv, they teach you, right? Yes. And so you don't just say like, oh, oh yeah. Cauliflower rice. Yeah. Yeah. That's not, that's not a conversation. Right. So like, yes, cauliflower rice and, oh, what else are you getting? Right. Like, ooh, what are your other Trader Joe's favorites? Like, and if you really want to be bold, you can say like, oh, should we do like a, like, let's show me, let's go see all the things that we, that are normally sold out and see what's there, you know?

26:52Like just to make it a little. Yeah, make it a playground. Make it a playground. Yeah. Yeah. You'd be like, would you ever, how do you think they make cauliflower rice? That's probably what I would ask too, but I would be genuinely curious about like who is doing that? Because have you ever tried to actually make cauliflower rice? No, but then, but just as you said that, I'd be like, yeah, actually I don't, yeah, how would they? I mean, I guess they just. It's like insane. I guess they just shred it. Yeah, but it's very hard because you have to like cut the floor out. It's a poor man's couscous, really.

27:16What about textual flirting? So much of texting happens in, so much of flirtation now happens in - In text, yeah. Yeah, which I kind of like - I don't love it. I kind of, like, I really love a voice note or a phone call. Like, I'm not a texter. I am a texter. But I would say, I think it depends on where you are at what stage of the relationship. So like a big problem with dating apps, I have seen so many people fall into that trap. And now they've spent weeks or even months like going back and forth with somebody and they're having like all this fun and da-da-da. And they feel so special because they're getting these texts every day.

27:53And like, and then if they actually do meet, most of the time, it's a big letdown. Because when you're texting, you get to curate what you're saying. You get to, you know, you don't have to worry about like that spontaneity of like, now I'm face-to-face. Yeah, you lighten angle a selfie. You know, yeah, exactly. I mean, the 0.5 Gen Z sitch. You know, like so many people use AI. I feel like that's your greatest competition right now as like a love coach or dating coach. Do you feel – are you insulted? Do you look insulted? I mean, I'm not insulted. I just don't – I don't see it as competition. I mean, I do think that – look, actually, what an AI would do better than me is give you like, okay, say this in response to that text message.

28:34Because I don't focus on that kind of like – Minutia. Minutia. That's not interesting to me. Yeah, sure, fine. You know, go to AI for that. Like most people's challenges with dating are not, oh, what's the word? It's not micro. It's not like, oh, like you didn't wear the right dress or like, you know, your cologne was too – it's not those types of things. I think everybody wants it to be that simple as like sending the perfect message, wearing the perfect outfit, saying the perfect thing, picking the perfect date spot. You know, all of they get really focused on that type of minutia. But once you actually start working with people and you realize like how so many people just their whole expectation of dating and relationships is so unproductive.

29:25And so many people feel so disempowered. And so many people are just leading with fear or leading with a desire to be chosen over actually finding somebody who's truly compatible with them. And those are the things that I think are just so much more important. What is your expectation of a relationship? And what is your ability to discern? What is your ability to be vulnerable? What is your ability to actually communicate what you're truly looking for in a relationship and not just say what you think is going to be the thing to make this person want to be with you? Flirting at the end of the day is also risking yourself for rejection.

30:05Yeah. It's scary, right? I'm curious how you help people get over that fear of rejection. Because that's actually what I think is the genius thing about whether it's improv or flirtation or playfulness, that this kind of mentality of life is about kind of a confidence. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, rejection is like the number one fear that people have in dating. So I have this expression, which is rejection isn't real. Girl, you've never been rejected? Oh, yes, I have. You were the first one to get voted off Survivor twice. Exactly. And so when people are like, oh, my God, like, I feel so rejected, they didn't respond to my text message.

30:44I'm like, until you've had two separate groups of people sit around and say, like, we have to vote one person out. Who is it going to be? So Franny was actually also a reality TV star in between corporate lawyering and love coaching. Yeah. So you had that very public experience. Yes. I had my first romantic rejection when I was, like, 10 years old. Because I called some boy who, and I remember my best friend at the time was like, I told her I was going to call him. And she was like, you can't call him. And I was like, yes, I can. And I'm old. So I pulled out the phone, the school phone directory, and I called him.

31:21And he got on the phone, and he's like, I'm sorry, who is this? And I told him. And he's like, oh, no offense, but I don't want to talk to you. Okay, exactly. No offense, but is like a terrible way to start a sentence for any 10-year-old boys listening to the show. Literally. Also, don't listen to the show. Call your mom. Right. And so, and I was, and I just remember that moment so clearly, which is actually wild because I can't even remember his name. What's amazing is like, I think that you always remember your first rejection. If you're watching or listening to the show, like, I want you to put your first rejection in the comments.

31:53It's actually empowering to say it. Yeah. It was, and it was traumatic. Yeah. Because I, and I remember in that moment thinking like, this is why my friend didn't want me to call him because she knew this was going to happen. And so it really just like my whole self-image in that moment was like shattered. Aw, 10-year-old friend. And I was like, oh, boys don't like me. Aw. And I literally carried that belief about myself like into adulthood. And I had what I call a moment of grace, which is one day I remember so clearly being in my bedroom and I was folding laundry. And this thought, boys don't like me, came into my head.

32:31And I was like in my 20s at this point. And I was like, you know what? I have been saying that to myself for a really long time. And it had just been on such a loop that I hadn't even, I didn't look at it objectively, you know, until that moment. And I was like, is that true? And I was like, well, you know, there's lots of boys who haven't liked me. But I mean, look at you. I'm sure there are lots of boys who are liking you too. But there have been boys that like me. And like, I don't want every boy to like me. I don't like every boy. Like, it was like just this moment where I can't say that I completely lost that belief overnight, but it definitely chipped away at it in a really big way.

33:11And then the next time it came into my head, I was like, I don't know about that. And then again, it came into my head and I was like, and then it just stopped coming into my head. So for people like listening right now, the moment of grace, how can you inspire that? It sounds like it just happened organically to you in that moment. But what prompts or techniques or activities or questions would get someone into a moment of grace with themselves? Well, one of my favorite exercises to give my clients is to write down at least 20 things that you believe about love, like specifically, right? As it pertains to you specifically.

33:45And then you can just look at all of those things. and I say 20, and I know that sounds like a lot, but sometimes it's not until like 17 or 18 that you get into your boys don't like me kind of thing. You know what I mean? And then you just look at that list of things and then you just say, okay, well, number one, is it true? And sometimes you might say, okay, actually, that's not true. And sometimes you might say, oh, it's true. Like this has happened and that's happened and da, da, da. And that's fine. It doesn't matter what the answer is. And by the way, this is very similar to, I don't know if you know Byron Katie, and she has this process called The Work.

34:20I started doing this before I ever heard of Byron Katie. So just because people are always like, oh, did you get them from Byron? I see and appreciate your effort to attribution, but I don't think anyone's thinking you're stealing anyone else's work. Okay. So tell me, but I'm really curious about this. So then you look at all those things, right? And so first the question is, is it true? Yeah. And maybe it is, maybe it's not to you. And then the second question is, do I want this to be true? And if the answer is yes, this is a belief that serves you, then fantastic, move on. But if it's something that you don't actually want to be true, then the next question is, am I willing to consider the possibility that it's not true or that it won't always be true?

34:56And just accepting that possibility, letting in that crack of possibility can be really transformative because then it's just like me in that thought, boys don't like me. It just got weaker and weaker until it went away. And that's actually what happens. How long did it take for that thought to get away from your moment of grace to that being like for you being liberated from that belief? I mean, it wasn't long. I would say probably like a couple of months. I mean, and considering that I've been holding onto it for like, you know, almost 20 years, like that's pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's amazing.

35:30And having coached now over 13 years, how many people? I don't know, hundreds, thousands, if you consider all the groups and things. Yeah. So after seeing this kind of like 20 list from hundreds, thousands of people, What are the common myths or truths that people tell themselves about love as it pertains themselves? I mean, I say in terms of the disempowering beliefs, it's a lot of like, you know, I'm too much. You know, maybe people are attracted to me, but they don't ever choose me. I'm never chosen. There's a lot of that. I, you know, I'm a lot in that, like, there's something about me. So something about your personality, something about your looks, something about your age, your life circumstances that you feel disqualifies you from having the love that you want.

36:20And the thing about us as humans is that we want to be right more than we want to be happy, right? So the beliefs that we have about ourselves are really, really important. So if you believe something that's working for you, like, go for it. But if you believe something that isn't, it's worth, like, actually looking at that belief and starting to break it down and starting to to not try to immediately override it. Because the point is not like, I didn't go from boys don't like me to every boy likes me. Like that's, you know, because then my mind is like, obviously that's not true. Yeah. Right.

36:55But it's like this Leonard Cohen quote, there's like a crack in everything that's how the light gets through. Yes, exactly. Like you just have to kind of create that. But I love that, the cognitive bias to want to be right about something. Like I'll say, I grew up with a sister who's like, she's a few years older to me, but she's like very beautiful and tall And like in a very Pakistani sense, she's like fair. She's like, you know, she was always like five foot 10 model height. And so my whole life I grew up being like, I'm not the pretty one. I'm like the smart one. And so that is a belief that is in my way.

37:24And she grew up with this other kind of belief. And as we kind of have moved through life, it's like there were times in my life where I became like boy crazy. And she became like very obsessed with proving herself at school or work. Yeah. And when you look at it and it's like, okay, like, is that actually true? Like, am I not pretty? Like, you know, and that's actually, I mean, and this is what - Diplo thinks I'm pretty. Diplo touched your feet with his hands. He thinks my feet are pretty. No, no, but I mean, it is a real limiting belief. It's a real limiting belief. It's a real limiting belief.

37:55And so when I say, you know, going back to your original question about rejection, when I say rejection isn't real, it's not that we don't get, you know, broken up with. It doesn't mean that people don't say, no, I don't want to talk to you. It doesn't mean that they vote you off an island. Like, these things do happen sometimes, but it's really the story that you attach to it. And that's what becomes then these beliefs that become these limiting beliefs and self-fulfilling, you know, prophecies in a sense. Because even like, you know, with Boys Don't Like Me, all that time that I believed that, I was mainly attracted to boys who didn't like me.

38:29Because it's that self-selection bias. Yeah. Like, I want to prove myself, to your point, to be right more than I want to prove myself to be happy. So it's like, then I will find, I will seek out opportunities to show that boys don't like me to prove to myself how correct I am. Exactly. And the boys who do like me, I'm just going to like ignore them or like dismiss it some way because it's too, it's like the cognitive dissonance of someone liking me. When I don't think anybody likes me, I couldn't handle that. Right. And so I would just like shut that down. Right. I love this. And we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back.

39:03Speaking of beliefs, there's this belief we have in fairy tales. You talk about it as a fairy tale industrial complex. Break it down for me, because who is complicit? Is it Disney? Is it Bridgerton? Is it rom-coms? My ex-boyfriend? Like, what's going on? It's all of it. It's all of the ways in which we are societally conditioned to see romantic love as a magical fantasy, particularly this search for happily ever after, which is something that in fairy tales, in romantic comedies, in Bridgerton, is always dependent on finding like a perfect person. And when you find that perfect person, that's when the story always ends, right?

39:44And it's just happily ever after. And we all know that that's not actually how relationships work. We know that like that's not the ending of the story. That's just the beginning of a new chapter. And that relationships are not set it and forget it. But when I actually, when I started matchmaking is when I really started to see that this was this fantasy version of love was something that was really permeating people's like actual approach to romantic relationships. And it was getting in the way. Well, right now you might not hear it till hot girl summer, but as we're taping it, love story is big right now.

40:22Everyone's obsessed and they think that like some Kennedy is going to come sweep them off their feet. Everyone thinks a rich dashing man is going to save you on the internet. 6-2, trust fund. Yeah. There's social out there that's like girls going down to Wall Street and stealing sweet green salads, which is, I guess, some combination of overt shoot your shot and like absolutely die ball going. Someone's going hungry. Daddy's going hungry. So what is the reality of this world where there is really actually some kind of challenge to hypergamous heterosexual dating that we're seeing? And you understand this well, as a woman who was in corporate law, like topper game, whatever, there is a real reality of women are struggling to find partners to be with.

41:03And then there's a kind of reaction to that, which is like, oh, just marry rich, trad wife, young, like whatever, all that. Yeah. Yeah. It is a new version of this whole fantasy approach to love. And I mean, I think probably every generation has some version of it. But a lot of women come to me with that sense of scarcity. And, well, I have an education and I have this kind of job and I make this kind of money and so I need somebody who is equal to or greater than. And I'm saying, okay, maybe. But what I actually like to have people do is to make that list of all the things that you want. Make that list.

41:44Put the six to. Put the trust fund. Everything that you want in another person, put that on the list. And then we're going to go through that list one by one. And then you're going to explain why that is important to you, what it has to do with the relationship. And when people start breaking it down, usually it's like, you know, because I work pretty, I work with men as well, but I work mostly with straight professional women. That's the majority of my clientele. And they'll say, well, if I'm with a man who makes, you know, at least as much money as I do, then he'll be supportive of my career and he won't be intimidated by me.

42:21Or he won't take advantage of me. And I say, okay, so what you're saying is that you want to be with somebody who's supportive, who's not intimidated by you and who won't take advantage of you. You know that there are men who make a lot more money than you do who will not be supportive of you, who will be intimidated by you, and who will still take advantage of you. So what you actually want is somebody who's going to be supportive of you, who's not going to be intimidated, who's not going to take advantage of you. So two things you said, which I really like. One, I really like this differentiation between the kind of overt and coy, the proxy versus the real quality.

42:52And you made that clearly. And then the second is something you just kind of mentioned in passing, which is what is it about the relationship? Because I think a lot of times when we're out dating and when people are dating you, they see you as a set of qualities. Yes. And then you are the sum or projection of a thing. Yes. And actually, like, what is amazing is, like, the space that you create between two people. Yeah. And I think that we spend a lot of time in a culture talking about like, what does this person have or represent versus how do I feel just being around that person? Exactly. And how do they feel around me?

43:33Like the reciprocity of that. Can I give them what they need to? And that is what the fairy tale completely ignores. Yeah. It's not recognizing that when you come together with another person, you are co-creating a relationship. And that is something brand new that has never existed before. and if it doesn't feel good to be in that co-creation with another person, then it doesn't matter how tall, rich, all the things, like, you know, you're not going to be happy. You're not going to have that happily ever after that you're seeking. What we need is, like, a disclaimer on every Hallmark movie that's like, he happens to be the prince of Bulgaria, but in real life, this could be anybody.

44:13Like, we just cast this guy. Or we need more DI in, like, the kind of rom-com industry that people can see that these qualities of goodness and showing up for you and remembering that special moment showing up for you in the 18th minute before you take that flight or whatever is not linked to that guy being hot. It's not that it's Heath Ledger, rest in peace. But it's that it is just the qualities of the person. That's what you should be looking for. Exactly. DEI Hollywood, say aye. DEI Hollywood, I agree. Okay, can we do a little lightning round? Sure. We're going to do a little paddle round.

44:50Yeah. PG paddle round. Okay. So we're going to say, is it overused or underused? Okay. This term. If it's overused, we're going to give it a red. Okay. If it's underused, we're going to give it a green. Got it. Okay. The ick. Oh, God. Overused. It's so overused, and it's such a cop-out in a way because you're not interrogating your reactions to anything. You're just saying, oh, ick. you know, and it's over. It's just like I was talking about when I had that belief that boys didn't like me. A guy who liked me gave me the ick. And he gave me the ick because he liked me. Yeah. Not because there was anything wrong with him, right?

45:31And in fact, I can look back on some of those guys who liked me and I'm like, I was really out of my mind, right? And so if you're just like quick to go ick and you're not interrogating like, well, what is it about this situation? Is it just that I'm feeling too vulnerable? Is it just that it's conflicting with some, you know, self-belief or identification, like, I think you're just, you know, that's what people should do. They should be more self-reflective. You heard it here first. Don't be quick to the ick. Okay. What do you think? I mean, in my experience, like, the number one thing that makes for good relationships in my life, be it a friend, a lover, or whatever, is benefit of the doubt.

46:05And I think if I don't give someone the benefit of the doubt, then they can never cross over. And the same is true of me. Like, I'm late for a lot of things. I need someone who gives me the benefit of the doubt for that, right? Yeah. So I just, I believe in, like, second chances. Okay. Yeah. Not 18th chances, but second chance. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Situationship, the term situationship. Overused or underused? I don't think that this term is overused. I think that there are too many people who are settling for that when they want more. But I think that people, when they are using that, they are accurately describing what's happening.

46:39100 % agree. What about benching? And let's talk not about the term, but the actual practice of benching. Yeah. I mean. Which is keeping multiple potential lovers on the line. Yeah. I mean, I think I'm going to say that people, that's overused, not the term, but the practice. Okay. And the point is not that I think everybody needs to like be in a relationship. Actually, I think a lot of people should be less focused on getting into a relationship because that's the fairytale mentality that that's the prize. And I think that dating is a really important process that teaches you the skills that you need to be in a successful relationship.

47:22It's not that I discourage people from dating multiple people, but I think this idea of like, I'm going to waste people's time and I'm going to string them along. And it's all to kind of have this sense of like safety or ego or something. I think that that is something that people need to stop doing. And why do you red flag, green flag? Because it's more intuitive for us. Okay. So if, okay. And this is really about the rules of engagement for modern dating. Okay. If he does not pay in heterosexual dating, he does not pay for a first date. Is it a red flag or a green flag? It's a red flag. I think it's a red flag.

47:56Why is it a red flag? I mean, first of all, I think that a first date, if you've never met the person before in person, should be something that's very simple, right? Like not overcomplicated, not overinvolved. And it's just like, come on. Like there's just a cultural expectation. And if you can't like pay for the coffee, then that just feels a little. What if it's not a coffee? It's dinner. It's dinner. But still. Well, I mean, I hope that you've met somebody before you go to dinner with them as a first date. That's a big commitment of time. What about somebody who waits to text three days in the year 2026 of our Lord?

48:33That is a red flag. That is insane. That is a red flag. Like, are you 80? What is that? But I will say, I think that obviously, like, if you're taking days to respond, like, that's a big red flag. But I do think that the expectation that somebody should be, like, immediately responding to you is also, you're a red flag. Yeah. If you think that somebody should just be like, you know, within five seconds every time you send a text responding, like, I don't think that that's a reasonable expectation. Yeah. For somebody that you, especially somebody that you don't really know yet. No, the normal thing is like if they like sometimes respond and they sometimes like, it's like sometimes they're really fast and sometimes they take a while because that's just like a normal way to interact with your phone.

49:08And also you have a life. I hope you're doing something else and you're not glued to your phone every second. What if he has, he has red receipts on his phone? Okay, well, first of all, take those off. I don't understand why anybody has read receipts on their phone. Like, I'm like, why would you do that? I mean. I kind of, I'm going to change. I think it's kind of a green flag if a guy has read receipts on his phone. I don't like it. Even the fact that we have to talk about these things, like there's so much room for interpretation and misinterpretation and like reading into what it means that, you know, I saw the dots going and then they stopped.

49:43And then, you know, like it's so, there's so much like minutia that we get so distracted by that we're not even focusing on like, what is this person's character? Like, how does it feel for us to like be together? I think I'm saying it's highly correlated with responsible people. So I just think that - I don't know why you're judging Zach with red receipts, but okay. I just don't think that we have to be so like, you know, insistent that people are like on our same communication schedule all the time. Yes. Yeah. What if someone looks at your socials before a first date in an online situation? So, okay, this is mixed because I think I understand why people do it.

50:22I don't recommend it because it's just giving you more opportunity to make judgments and jump to conclusions about someone that, yeah, this is, it's like, that, you know, may or may not be the case, you know? So ideally, you would not look at each other's social media. Actually, you want to hear a really quick story? Yes. Because you mentioned Heath Ledger. And I briefly dated a really good friend of Heath Ledger's, which made me think of him. But this also makes me think of him. And he's somebody that I met in person. And this was years ago when Heath Ledger was still alive. And I Googled him before our first date.

51:04And I found out that, like, he had a sister who died by suicide, and his family started this foundation. And I got all this, like, very intense information about him. So then when we were dating, and then he, like, shared that with me, I felt like, oh, I can't tell him that I already know this. Like, it was so awkward, and it just made me think, like, I'm never going to do this again. Yeah. I just want to just meet people and just— It's much nicer to not know. It's so much nicer to not have this, like, oh, well, then, well, I saw this picture of them in Cabo, and who was that person? Like, you know, it's just too much.

51:34It's too much. It's too much. Let's be IRL. Wait until you break up to really spend time with their socials. Then you can go down the rabbit hole. I know. Do that. Okay. Asks, has the DTR relationship on the first three dates? So I think, okay. I actually think green flag. I'm going to give it a green. I think that what, not the DTR because that's about us. Us. Versus DT intentions. Yes, exactly. But I do think that there's a difference between do you want to be with me and are you at a place in your life where you want to be in a relationship? Those are two very different questions. And just like you wouldn't start measuring for a remodel of a house that you don't know is for sale.

52:22You're just going to be like, oh, is this house for sale? You may not want to buy it, but what are we doing here? So you just want to see if the house is for sale. You just want to see if the house is for sale. Why are you trying to like measure anything? I mean, maybe try to measure two things. It depends on the date. Okay. Do you think it's possible to be dangerously good at dating? Like, or dangerously like dating? Yes. Say more. Yeah. There's some people who love dating. Yeah. And they are so good at it that all their dates are fun. All their dates are engaging. They're really good at flirting.

52:51And it becomes like a form of entertainment. And if you're dating somebody else who also feels that same way, great. But the problem is that those people then are dating people who are looking for commitment. And they're like, oh, my God, I went on the best date. This person was so amazing. And they read a lot of potential into it when that person is like, oh, no, they're just going to keep doing that with another 20 people. So how do you, asking for a friend, how do you get out of that? Do you find yourself in a situation where the expectations are misaligned often? Sometimes. But I think it's less about that, but it's more about, like, it's possible to, like, date very – especially in a city like New York, it's possible to have a lot of great dates and, like, learn things and feed your curiosity and feed your enjoyment and your, like, without – but, like, also be looking for that real thing.

53:43Yeah, I understand. But like, it's like, I never know, like, is it better to create space for yourself? So you're just like totally single and like moving through the world until you find that person or you're like in the playground dating, you know? I'm a monogamous serial dater, but like I'll date a lot. I'll go on dates. Yeah. I mean, I think there was a phase in my life where I went on a lot of dates and I needed that because I think that was helping me to get better at flirting, to get better at discernment, to get more clear about what I actually needed in a relationship versus what I thought I needed.

54:14Yeah. So if that's a phase that you're in, then I think keep it going. But I think if you find you're like, okay, maybe I'm actually distracting myself and it's easier to do this than to actually be vulnerable and to be like more present with like, okay, who is. You could be vulnerable in that situation, but it's just not locking it in. Yeah, but then it's not really vulnerable. Because if you know that this is what you don't want to do, and I say this with love, just because you're sharing things of yourself that maybe they're, quote, vulnerable things, it doesn't mean that that's actual vulnerability to you.

54:47You're right. The vulnerable thing is really to like somebody and to really want them to like you. Okay. That's the end of my asking for a friend section of the podcast. I end every episode of Smart Girl Dumb Questions asking my guests who know so much about their topic, what they're experts in. What's a dumb question you have? Okay, this is so embarrassing. I was literally thinking about this yesterday. I almost asked Claude, like, just explain this to me like I'm a 10-year-old. What is wellness? What is wellness? I mean, it's an industrial complex. You know, there's a wellness industry that includes, you know, everything from like yoga to protein bars to a million things.

55:34But like, what is wellness? What is wellness? Maybe it's not that stupid of a question. It's not. I think it's a profound question. What is wellness? And I feel like we're going from like big pharma to big wellness. I think you can brand anything as wellness. But like, what does that actually mean? Thank you so much, Francesca Hoagy, for being with me. Franny, as I call her. The book is called How to Find True Love. For us, it happened in Morocco. Yes. But for you, it could happen in your DMs. Always be looking. Always be open. Always be open. All right. Thank you so much. This was fun. And we have to say a special thanks to Florida Mall.

56:06Oh, yes. Who outfitted us today. Do you think like actually lingerie and sexy clothes make you feel sexy? Yeah, I do. I think you don't need to be in like sexy clothes to flirt, but you know, it doesn't hurt. It certainly helps, I think. If you wear a Florida mall, I think it helps. Yeah, it helps. All right. I just love Francesca. I find her so refreshing. I appreciate the honesty with which she discusses like being rejected so publicly on Survivor, her own kind of narrative in her head about boys don't like me, which is crazy because if you're just listening to this, like she's so beautiful and how she's helped so many people over 13 years of matchmaking and love coaching.

56:45I want to know what you thought of this episode. Is it going to help you flirt more? Is it going to help you flirt with your partner that you already have? Find a new one. flirt with ideas, flirt at work in a very HR approved way, write in. I'm at naimmaraza101 at gmail.com. Also, I want your questions about all things work. Don't forget to send those for the Smart Girl Dumb Questions. What even is work? series brought to you by Zoom. And what's really funny, actually, I just thought of this, is that Francesca is actually a Zoom solopreneur. This was coincidental. I met her in Morocco and then at TED, but she's one of 50 entrepreneurs who've kind of built their own successful businesses, powered by technology and all kinds of things.

57:20And they've chosen to feature 50 of these people. I'm actually doing interviews of them. You can find them over at Zooms, YouTube, or social channels. That's it for this episode of Smart Girl Dumb Questions. I'm your host, Naima Raza. This episode was produced with Sanjana Nigam and Melissa Lee Gibson. It was engineered by Johnny Simon, mixed by Fernando Arruda, and shot by Wonder Studios and the great Desta Wonder ad. I'll see you next week for an all-new Smart Girl Dumb Questions.

57:49Thank you.