How Much Would You Pay for Love? with Matchmaker Maria Avgitidis

0:00I'm Naye Maraza. This is Smart Girl Dumb Questions and I'm sitting here today with fourth generation matchmaker Maria Avgitidis. And what the fuck Maria? You didn't bring me a date? Uh, you know, you didn't pay me. Smart Girl Dumb Questions. This is what I want to get into with you today. I mean, I'm so fascinated by matchmaking. The power dynamics involved, the money involved, the history of it, and whether it was, the world was a better place when our parents were setting us up. which is part of what I gleaned from your book, actually. Is that the conclusion you got? That is the conclusion. Maria's written a great book called Ask a Matchmaker, where it's kind of structured around questions.

0:39So this will not be a new format for you, the Smart Girl Dumb Questions format. Here's where I want to start. Maria, one of the things you outline is a 12-date rule for bonking. Bonking, I think, is an acceptable rule. That is the technical term. Yeah, the 12-date rule instead of a three-date rule, instead of a sex on the first date rule, which no one's ever had that rule, I don't think. You know, some people actually do have that rule. One date rule? Yeah, I've seen it. Some dating influencers will be out there on TikTok and I don't know how much they believe it or if they're trying to just monetize off of confusion of saying, if we don't have sex on a first date, I know she's not my girlfriend.

1:16But let's go back to the 12-date rule. Yeah, I wanna say, I don't think that 12 dates is necessarily like for an individual a lot, but I think for all of society, across society as an average, seems higher than today's dating culture, right? What is today's dating culture? I actually don't think so. Evidence is showing, the trends reports are showing, even from the Singles in America study that came out a couple months ago, that more people are willing to wait a few dates until they have sex. Yeah, but a few, 12 is for few. But see, 12-date rule method is not 12 physical dates. So there is this sort of matchmaker-maria math that I outline in the book.

1:53Yes. I believe that there are different definitions for dates. And the purpose of it is to actually show you, like, here's how you're going to be intentional in getting to know someone to see if you're emotionally compatible before you are physically compatible. So in your book, you talk about FaceTime dates or video dates or phone calls, those count. You have two short meetings can count as one date. That's right. So the minimum of a date, which can either be a phone call, a video call, or an in-person date has to be 20 minutes. maximum three hours. That's what counts as a date. And you can have up to two dates in one day.

2:29So let's say, you know, Naima, you go on a marathon date, that's like brunch in the village. And then you get a watch an independent film at the Angelica. Now you're seven hours in. That's not three dates. That sounds like a great date. It's a great date, but it's not three dates. It counts for two. And what that does is it actually shows people that the person that you think you're falling for, have you actually gotten to know them or is it all via text? Yeah. And not even just during via text. I think one of the things is when you're dating, you can have so much information about someone. You can think about them.

3:00You can fixate if you want to. Like you can believe that you know a lot about a person, a lot more about a person than you actually do because you're thinking about them. You can believe that you spent a lot more time with a person than you actually did because you were thinking about them. Yeah. And there's perception bias here too, right? Like, oh, he responded quickly. That means he's into me. Well, maybe he just had a moment. Like if someone takes four hours to get back to you during the workday, they might also be at their job. But in the 12-date rule method, texting counts for nothing. And so there are people that I know that have met someone online and they just have this whole texting relationship for four days.

3:36They think that they're in love. And I'm like, you haven't been on a single date. But because of this method, I just want to say, I know that there's a lot of people that might not agree with that. And that's okay. What I can say is that 12-date rule method on average takes about two and a half weeks. A lot of people are not going to make the 12 dates because you will see that after the fourth, fifth, sixth date, they don't make it. And also, I've gotten thousands of people engaged because of this method, right? I want people to date intentionally. The only way to do that is to judge emotional compatibility first.

4:07Yes. On average to me was always surprising because I think in New York, it's like dating coordination should be a job. Like there should be an AI for dating coordination. There is now. Yeah, there is really like a scheduler. There's like a Calendly for dating. Yes. Oh my God, it's terrible. Is Calendly going to be bought by Hinge or something? Is that our future? I'm sure there's going to be an API. Yes. Okay. That's very, very concerning because it takes, I mean, for me, I feel like two and a half weeks sounds fast, but 12 dates sounds long. But even in online dating, right? What you just said, it sounds fast.

4:39It should be fast, right? If you take online dating as a tool that it's meant to be, you shouldn't be messaging for more than a couple of times. I don't mean, I just mean between the first date. I would only count from like first time. And I don't date online a lot. But like from the first time I meet someone to going on 12 dates with them just because of my travel schedule, et cetera. It can be hard to do. Hey, only three of those 12 have to be in person. I know. What that means is you have to have an honest conversation with that person that you're dating and say, hey, I have to go. I have to travel.

5:05I would really like to FaceTime with you every night. What do you think about that? You're right. I think of dates as physical dates and what your kind of method does, which I think is fundamentally very different and is matchmaker Maria math. The MMM method is really think of every interaction that you're learning about someone as a date. Yeah, exactly. Except for texting. That doesn't count. Texting just doesn't count. Yeah. Neuro audio messages. I've had people ask me like, okay, how about an audio? No, it doesn't count. Voice notes. No, because you need to measure their reactions to when you're sharing about your day.

5:39Yeah. And also when they're sharing about their day, what kind of language are they using? What kind of accountability did they have over how their day went? That is what you're judging here. And also the commitment. No relationship can ever flourish if we're not vulnerable with each other. And vulnerability is required for connection. You've set up 5 ,000 first dates. Over 5 ,000. Over 5 ,000 first dates. And only half of those have been for me. I'm kidding. Yes. No, but 5 ,000 first dates is a lot. Across how many people? As a professional matchmaker, myself and my company, we only take 25 to 30 clients a year.

6:13And over 17 years, that's going to be a lot of dates. On average, how many people, there's a 12-date rule for how many dates you should go on before you're intimate with somebody. But how many dates do people go on on average before they meet the person that they're going to be with? How many matches have I introduced them to before they meet that person? Yeah. And what do you call that? Like the successful match, the lucky match, the match? You know, their last match is what I usually call it. But that really ranges. Usually, though, it's about match three, four, five, six. So it's in the middle.

6:44Usually, if you're in a contract with us for six months, you'll probably get anywhere between 10 and 15 matches. I have in 2019, I remember I had four clients marry their first match. on average about their fourth fifth or sixth match will most likely be the last match i've had clients though marry their first match i've had clients have to wait until the very last match with multiple sessions of recalibration to get to that right match okay let's talk money yeah how much does this cost and is it per year is it per marriage what's the pricing strategy wouldn't it be great if I could get paid on marriage too well I do know that some people that are matchmakers do charge a bonus when you get engaged or married yeah or a six-month bonus an engagement bonus and a marriage bonus I need to add my contract mine's at a we do sometimes have for certain clients a success fee a success fee but and successes counts as six months six months six months in a relationship with someone six months is a success I have rarely had a client go on six dates through us and not marry that person.

7:51Like most of my clients. Why are you making them wait for 12 then, Maria? You know, I had a client, I asked him one time to give me, hey, you got married. Could you please give me a five-star review? And he's like, no, because you made me wait until 10 matches in. And I'm like, what? Oh my gosh. But in terms of cost, it can range from service to service. You know, I think really great matchmakers, they tend to range at 25 ,000 going up to 150 ,000. It really depends on the level of work you are requiring for us to recruit the kind of person that would match with you. That's also enthusiastic to meet you.

8:33And also. Is there a lot of rejection? There is a lot of rejection. Yeah. Yeah. Tons. And how do you handle that back to your clients? I don't tell them. You don't tell them? I tell them a little bit like, you know, what you're looking for has a lot of obstacles. We're going to get a lot of women or men who don't want to meet someone like you, but we're going to find the person who has the criteria you're looking for, has the criteria that I think you should be looking for. There's a balance there that also want to meet someone just like you. So it's our job to meet those people, right? We have to meet a ton of people.

8:59I have to meet on average about 30 people for every person they go out with. So another part of that cost is also the access to the matchmaker you've chosen. I feel like certain matchmakers myself included we can only handle a certain amount of clients at a time and that sort of bandwidth that sort of management you know having those personal conversations with each client every week. That's that's a time commitment. I understand that the constraint is the matchmaker and then another constraint is the number of people who are willing to meet with you. That's the biggest one. And also the number, so there's three constraints.

9:33The time the matchmaker has, the number of people the person who wants to be matched actually is interested to meet with, and the number of people who want to meet back with them. There is one more criteria that will surprise you. Which is? You cannot charge so much less that you become the most affordable. I remember when I had first started out, I didn't know how much to charge. There also weren't that many matchmakers out in the world doing it professionally. So I was charging, let's say, beyond market rate. What that did, though, was attract the kind of people who could only afford me. They didn't see it as an investment in another matchmaker.

10:12They just chose me because I was the cheapest. Yeah. What that resulted in, though, was the worst experience in dating for both of us, both me as a matchmaker and for them, because essentially, if I was the cheapest, if I was all they could afford, if this is all they wanted to spend, they may have had to give up a trip to the Bahamas. Right. Right. For the summer to afford me. And then as a result, every single first date I set them up with had to be better than a trip to the Bahamas. Every single one. Every single one. And that's not possible. The expectations are too high. So there has to be, from an economic standpoint, if you are hiring a dating service, it's not for everyone.

10:54There are other things you could invest in that are much more affordable. But if you are the kind of person who would outsource certain things in life and you would use that for a matchmaker, then you have to find the price point that makes sense. Okay. So you said that you don't tell people when they're rejected. Not always. It depends on what the rejection is. Do you ever give them like a Rachel Lee Cook style glow up from She's All That? Some clients, yeah. Yeah, you do? Of course. I mean – Like you do that at the point of ingesting. It's like I'm talking about them like their data. Like at the point of receiving a client, you say – I heard this from another person who is a matchmaker.

11:27And she said, before we do this, like maybe like get Invisalign. Do this. Do that. She'll actually glow them up. We usually just do a nice photo shoot. We do have a stylist on our team. And we actually have that stylist go over their house too. We want to make sure that the house that they live in is the house of not a single pathetic bachelor, but also of like a person who is just outsourcing this to a matchmaker. And what I mean by that is like we have had clients who didn't even have headboards. Oh my God. Flannel sheets. Flannel sheets. And I'm talking about millionaires, chiefs of major companies.

12:03And I'm like, what's happening here? They're still in a college dorm room. College dorm room. Yeah. I mean, they got to get ready. So we have to go up sometimes their apartment. Yeah. Because that's sometimes the missing link, right? Like they've been on great first and second and third dates, but they've never been able to in a relationship because there's a woman out there or a man out there who's like, I I'm not here to be your mother. Yeah. Like, yeah. I mean, the quality of someone's home tells you a lot about them. Yeah. That's why even if you wait 12 dates, I feel like you should at least try to check out the pad on like an earlier date.

12:33After the fifth date is when you recommend it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You don't want to spend. If you met through, if you met online, I would want to wait five dates and after. If you met through friends, it could be the second or third date. Yeah. I don't care. Yeah. Sometimes guys like invite you to their apartment because they're like, they know they have a sick pad. They can always try. They're like, oh, do you want to just swing by on the way to lunch? And then you just know. Oh, you know what the worst guys are in New York is the ones with the rooftops. Oh, really? Yeah. Because they're like, oh, come by.

12:56Let me show you the rooftop. And then it's like, oh, yeah, if I show her a little New York City skyline. Yeah. Because it is a natural aphrodisiac, isn't it? The Empire State Building. Yeah.

13:06Like the high lofted ceilings of Soho is also an aphrodisiac in a different way. Okay. Do people ever ask for a refund?

13:19The answer is yes. I can sometimes tell from an interview what the answer is by how long it takes someone to respond to a question, not the answer to the question. So the answer is yes, they have asked you for a refund. Sure. That doesn't mean they get one. Okay. You know, if we have to get to the conversation of refunds, something has gone deeply wrong. I should be able to sense way ahead of time, ooh, something isn't working here. What is it? And what can we fix? If I've ever had a client ask for a refund, which has been very rare, something was missing. I've had clients, though, get into relationships and get married through me and then ask for a refund.

13:59But that's the ones I'm curious about. Somebody who gets in a relationship, the relationship doesn't work out, and then they come back to you and say, hey, this relationship didn't work out. I'd like a refund. It's very rare. That's happened maybe once or twice in 17 years. However, I've had a lot of clients renew their contracts. So they dated someone. Again, that six-date threshold, most of those clients have gotten married. But let's say they dated. They had better dating experiences, and their contract might end. I might not get them in a relationship in those six months and they'll do like, I want to do it again.

14:31Yeah. By the way, typically the reason why I pause on the refund question is because sometimes I'm the one offering it. It's not them asking. I'm like, you know what? I'm, you've made a, you don't need a matchmaker. You need a therapist. Oh, wow. You don't need a matchmaker. You need your mom. You don't need a matchmaker. You need a best friend. Like this is what, what I can do and what you want might not be aligned. Yeah. Okay. Speaking of moms, we'll do some, some lighting around. A lot of moms follow me too. Okay. Who's a better matchmaker? Your mom, your next door neighbor, or your doorman?

15:03Oh, I thought this was a personal question. No, no. Not because of your mom. Okay. Who's anyone's best matchmaker? Their mom, their best friend, their next door neighbor? Their mom, their best friend, or their next door neighbor? Their next door neighbor. Their next door neighbor. Because? They don't know you enough to reject really great people. Hmm. I think your next door neighbor is going to have a perception of your lifestyle. They're going to have a perception of, you know, are you in a lower middle class, middle class, upper middle class, upper society, like what sort of neighborhood you're in.

15:35And then they'll be able to target people that have more opportunity to be in a long term relationship than your best friend ever will. Okay. Interesting. Are you surprised by that answer? No, I love that answer. I mean, I thought you were going to say something about like they see you in a different way. They see, they're like, they're, I don't know. they see things about you that other people don't see. But I guess your mom and your best friend kind of see those things too. Yeah. I think best friends tend to be the worst matchmakers. Because? Because they just think of, they know so many great things about you that the only title that they're confused about is the single.

16:07So what they do is they look for their single friends and they're like, okay, you two. And it's like, well, no, you, there's more to this. It's like, it's like racial profiling, but it's not as serious as racial profiling. I don't want to get canceled for saying that, but it's like single profiling. I'm sorry. This happened. And by the way, racial profiling also happens in dating. I have a lot of friends who will be like, I also have a single brown friend. And let me introduce you guys. I mean, I usually see this with gay matchmaking. You see friends who are like, oh, I have a gay friend. Oh, you're gay?

16:36You have to be my gay friend. There's like a thousand other things you should have thought about before. Yes, that's important. But that's not what long-term compatibility is based out of. Okay. Single most important thing for compatibility? Your conflict resolution skills. And how do you test that by getting into a fight early, dramatically? Yeah. You recommend actually having some kind of friction. I think it's really important to have a little bit of friction in the beginning. I don't think, you know, you had Justin Garcia on a previous episode where he talked about how people feel more romantically inclined when they have a stressful, when they have some friction in the beginning.

17:15And it's very similar here. I think taking someone to Ikea can be a really great way to discover if you're if you have complementary conflict resolution styles. Ah not just for the Swedish meatballs. Not just for the Swedish people. Yeah although I think I've been on a date on Ikea actually and it was a really fun date because if you go to Ikea on a date you're not actually going there like buy 18 pieces of furniture or like 17 plates or whatever. But you can also learn a lot about people's impulse behaviors at Ikea. Like, I remember this one story I heard about someone going to Ikea with their partner.

17:49They had just moved in together. And on their way out, they went to go get a desk. But as they were leaving, he saw in the clearance a couch. And he's like, we should get this couch. And she's like, no, like, we're not here for the couch. No, we have to get this couch. She's like, we don't need a couch. We have a couch. We can discuss this more. And I don't even want this color. Everybody who's listening to this is like, I've had a fight like this. Maybe not about a couch, but yeah. And that's a pretty serious decision because a couch is something that you tend to keep for years. And it's also going to be a backdrop on almost all family photos.

18:22Right. And it's also like a financial reality. It's like, is this person going to be like a kind of like impulse spender? Right. That's probably a major indicator there. And so you can learn a lot about someone in these sort of like high stress environments. Bed Bath & Beyond is also a perfect example of that. You don't have to go all the way to Red Hulk to experience the Ikea date. you know there's a there's a few places that you could go to I also think hibachi hibachi yeah oh I like hibachi the one where they throw the shrimp into your mouth yeah yeah you can learn a lot about someone who's eating with other people they don't know in that sort of table setting yeah Esther Perel whose episode people can also check out in this podcast has this rule has this idea that like your first date shouldn't be just you guys sitting oppositionally across each other from a table like you should bring people out to meet your friends you should just do what you were going to do anyways and like bring someone along for that experience fully agree if your second date could be at a friend's birthday party you are on the highway of a happy relationship but you said second date not first date you still think the one-on-one me is important i think the first date if you're online dating it's a meetup it's not necessarily this formal dinner date i think it's more of like a walk and a gelato or maybe a glass of wine and you really need to lower the temperature and expectations of a first date if you're meeting online if you're meeting through friends that it was your first date you're also like making sure that person is who they say they are or whatever i mean i feel like the online dating experience you also need to know if you like the way they smell and if they make weird chewing sounds i i want to talk about the power dynamics and matchmaking because i have had i have had some matchmaking experiences maria in my life none with me none with you i never like as a paying client though i want to talk to you about that whether more women are paying um but i you know i'd been in relationships kind of from when I was 16 to 31.

20:08And when I broke up, there was a luxury matchmaking service. And it was like this idea was like really high end or whatever. And I remember her reaching out to me and I was living in San Francisco at the time. And like the first date, the guy was like going to send me a car and we're going to have lunch at the Rosewood Hotel because he was like flying in from somewhere. And I just didn't like the sound of it at all. I felt like... It's very Hollywood. Yeah, it's very Hollywood. But it wasn't about... I didn't think, oh, she was setting me up to be like, you know, Julia Roberts moment or something.

20:38No, I didn't think that. But I thought that there's going to be this real power dynamic. Like if I have a relationship with this person who paid to meet me and like sent me a car and brought me to a place, that's a, you know, I would say I'm more of a traditional girlfriend, but that is like probably too much for me. It's interesting that that was your, the language you just used to describe that is very interesting. And I think that's at the fault of the matchmaker for not describing in more words of what their response is. So you just said in your own words that he paid to meet you. That's not what any of my clients do.

21:14My clients pay me to expand their social network so that I can introduce them to someone that they are compatible with that is enthusiastic to meet them. That is the truth of how the whole value chain works and what the service you're providing is. But I think it can feel like. Right. It can feel like it can feel like you're the product when you're the woman on the kind of like getting called up and and being set up side. Sure. And there's also a volume game, right? Like you at the end of the day are in some kind of volume game of I've you know, I am setting up this person. This person is looking to meet a lot of people and therefore you're setting up many dates for the same person.

21:56Yes. It feels like a lot of dating feels like a transaction. But sometimes I feel like when I get a call from a matchmaker, it feels like I'm on the receiving end of a transaction, which I don't think it is. I think actually the people who are using matchmakers are much more interested in having a long-term relationship. I believe so, too. They're putting their money where their mouth is. But I'm talking about a feeling that I had. But I think what you are highlighting, though, is how the question started, which is the power imbalance right and there is a power imbalance someone has um an invested interest to meet someone that they believe they would have a great relationship with how much does that match have say in who that is as well is this client someone i would want to meet yeah right you do have and you do have a say on that you can decline the date you can they'll keep you in mind for other dates.

22:52Like that is always the case. This is why I don't believe. I think inbound marketing when it comes to modern day matchmaking is the only way. And that is where, you know, you mentioned before the movie materialist, you see the outbound approach, right? Where she chases someone down the street. She goes to weddings and gives her cards out. This is an outbound approach, right? There's no real trust being established. It's just, well, call me if you want to be set up. It's single profiling. It is. It's single profiling. Whereas my company and myself, I've always tried to take the inbound approach.

23:29Let me make really good content. Let me write a book. Let me tell you where I come from and how I build community. These are my superpowers. And if you like it, you can always come to my website on your own and join my database. And that's how I can consider you. yeah this is all so technological and it makes me think of the fact that you are a fourth generation matchmaker the first to have founded a matchmaking company and commercialize and capitalize it in that way yeah but you often say you're a fourth generation matchmaker because and skip your mom's generation when you say that right even though she worked for me for like two weeks had to fire her why she's terrible at it she was a terrible matchmaker she's like she was i remember she had, we talked to a client and she, you know, he's, you know, some clients, some potential clients, they'll talk in delusion.