In short
The episode debates “Is everything a cult?” using a cult-language lens. Guests discuss why the U.S. is especially prone to cultishness (American Dream meritocracy myths, distrust of institutions, and “God” migrating into self-improvement). They argue cults can be communities or religions to outsiders, and that “cult” is often “in the eye of the not-beholder.” They outline a “conversion, conditioning, coercion” framework and warn about linguistic tactics like thought-terminating clichés and us-vs-them enemies. They also cover “exit costs” (high costs to leave even when entry is cheap), and offer deprogramming advice (don’t accuse, use empathy and Socratic questioning, invite alternatives, keep one toe out).
Guests
Naima Raza (host, Smart Girl Dumb Questions) and Amanda Montel (guest; runs Sounds Like a Cult; daughter of a cult survivor; parents are research scientists; wrote Cultish). Key examples: Synanon (Amanda’s father forced to join), doc series The Vow, Wild Wild Country, Love Has Won, Tiger King, and “cultish” brands/phenomena discussed include SoulCycle, Peloton, Erewhon, Harvard, and Joe Rogan (borderline/“cultish,” not a full cult). Notable claims: self-improvement is “the ultimate cult” in the U.S.; algorithms can be cultish; “cult plus time equals religion.”
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOIntroducing Amanda Montel
0:57 to 1:50
Naima Raza introduces guest Amanda Montel and her background.
“And watch Elle, a new original series only on Prime Video.”
Defining Cult
1:50 to 3:08
Amanda discusses the complexities of defining what a cult is.
“I'm Naima Raza, and today my guest is Amanda Montel.”
Cult Classification System
3:08 to 4:39
Amanda introduces a cheeky cult classification system and its relevance.
“That is a definition that I have been reckoning with now for the better part of my whole life, but formally for the past five or six years.”
Cults in American Culture
4:39 to 5:41
The conversation explores the relationship between American culture and cultishness.
“And I wonder, is everything a cult now, or do you just need to make a weekly podcast?”
Searching for Purpose
5:41 to 7:07
Discussion about the search for meaning and community in modern America.
“But also, you know, we are a nation predicated on the Protestant ethic and, you know, like determining your own destiny.”
Cultural Shifts in Belief
7:07 to 8:10
Amanda and Naima discuss generational differences in spirituality and community.
“You know, there's a lot of mistrust in the government and the health care system.”
Cult Documentaries
8:10 to 10:46
Amanda suggests various cult documentaries and discusses their insights.
“And, you know, God is everywhere in all of these non-religious things, which is the greatest scam.”
Creating a 'Cult'
10:46 to 13:22
The hosts brainstorm what elements would make a good cult, including animal therapy.
“Which is like the best one or stack rank them?”
Red Paddle, Green Paddle Game
13:22 to 14:00
A fun game to classify different groups and entities as cults or not.
“has to go to a negative and destructive place.”
Exploring Cult Dynamics
14:00 to 15:00
Learn about how different fitness brands can be viewed through the lens of cult-like behaviors.
“And then green can be a cult in a good way.”
Show all 27 chapters
The Harvard Cult Debate
15:00 to 17:30
Discussing whether prestigious institutions like Harvard can be seen as cults and the effects of elitism in academia.
“Virtual is a protective measure In this particular case What about millennial beige?”
Current Cults and Mental Health
17:30 to 21:00
An exploration of dangerous modern cults, particularly regarding mental health and social media influence.
“You're like looking at them and you're like, I think in 15 years, this person is going to be the subject of a Netflix series.”
Three Cs of Cult Influence
21:00 to 24:10
Understanding conversion, conditioning, and coercion as methods used in cults to influence members.
“The stimuli that I'm most interested in are linguistic.”
Creating a Cult: A Thought Experiment
24:10 to 28:00
Engaging in a thought experiment to create a cult around the podcast theme, exploring language and dynamics.
“Like let's say you're in a conversation with someone and you're expressing, I don't know, like a sentiment that you saw in an empirical study.”
Exploring the Concept of 'Questioners'
28:00 to 28:50
Discussion on the idea of 'questioners' and its relation to cult dynamics.
“But it's like questioners or like the questioners.”
The Role of Mantras in Cults
28:50 to 30:10
Examination of how mantras could foster group solidarity and identity.
“You're going to need some, you're going to need some highly repeatable mantras.”
Monetization vs. Cult Characteristics
30:10 to 31:20
Discussion on monetization of the podcast and its relation to cult initiation fees.
“I think there are absolutely sacrifices that you can have people make that don't involve money.”
The Complexity of Cult Costs
31:20 to 33:10
Exploration of both financial and emotional costs associated with cults.
“No cult leader ever started with the most extreme version of their group.”
Exit Costs and Identity in Cults
33:10 to 34:10
Insight into the high exit costs of cults and their effects on identity.
“And next week's episode, which is about, well, it's a little culty, but it's about pronatalism.”
Corporate Capitalism as a Cult
34:10 to 36:30
Debate on whether corporate capitalism can be viewed as a cult-like structure.
“Yeah, but in the financial cost, like some of these things we're talking about, matcha, Erewhon, et cetera, they're expensive to get in.”
Skepticism and Curiosity in Cults
36:30 to 37:30
Discussion on the challenges of maintaining a cult focused on curiosity.
“I mean, I cannot tell you definitively, but I do know that this is one of the reasons why it is so important to keep a whole foot or at least a toe outside of the political ideology that you subscribe to.”
Fun Lightning Round on Cultish Brands
37:30 to 39:10
Engaging lightning round discussing cultish brands and their cultural significance.
“I think that our cult, the Smart Girl Dumb Questions cult is going to have some challenges.”
Loneliness Epidemic and Cult Formation
39:10 to 42:03
Connection between loneliness, podcasting, and the rise of cult-like communities.
“The Happy Healthy Holy— Which is a kundalini yogi cult.”
Understanding Cult Dynamics
42:03 to 45:03
Explore how cult-like behaviors manifest in society and personal relationships.
“Okay, there were people who had a really positive experience with Jonestown.”
Deprogramming from Cults
45:03 to 46:47
Learn effective strategies for helping loved ones exit cult-like situations.
“And so in those situations, what are three things you can do to help someone and three things you shouldn't do?”
Boundaries and Community
46:47 to 49:29
Discuss the importance of boundaries and the distinction between community and cult.
“The best thing you can do is start with a question that's small, like, oh, so what do you think the minimum age should be?”
Personal Reflections and Questions
49:29 to 52:28
Engage in a light-hearted discussion about personal struggles and food choices.
“It is really feeding into the capitalist structure that is like your local Pilates studio, matcha place, whatever.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Mr. Beast, Taylor Swift, Elon Musk. The best dancers from across the globe are about to join me for the audition of a lifetime. ABC Mondays. Do they have what it takes to compete and be the next Dancing with the Stars pro? I'm here to win. Nothing is going to stop me. Our star judges will decide. This is what hunger looks like. It was 100 % the wrong choice. Robert Irwin hosts. The next era of Ballroom starts right here on Dancing with the Stars, the next pro. All new Mondays, 8, 7 central on ABC, next day on Hulu.
0:57And watch Elle, a new original series only on Prime Video. Watch now. Who has the stickiest cult? Oh, God. Oh, this is a toughie. Sticky is an interesting choice of adjective. I want to say it's Taylor Swift. Because, like, Mr. Beast's canon of work, while prolific and algorithmically blessed, I don't know that it will feel relevant and captivating forever, but I don't think there will be any Elon Musk stans in 200 years. I don't know, actually. I feel like you're living in a political bubble, Amanda. Yeah, I will say, sadly, I am familiar with Elon Musk's stans, but there's just something about music, man.
1:43Smart girl. Dumb questions. Is everything a cult now, and can I have one too? This is Smart Girl Dumb Questions. I'm Naima Raza, and today my guest is Amanda Montel. Like me and everyone else in America, Amanda has a podcast. It's called Sounds Like a Cult. You're also the daughter of a cult survivor. That's true. Yes. Does that make you more susceptible to cults or just more obsessed with them? Yeah, probably all of the above. Well, so both my parents are research scientists. My mom is a cancer cell biologist. My dad is a neuroscientist. But there was definitely like a general vibe in my home that, you know, like rationality was the altar at which we worship.
2:22Anything else was kind of less than. And I did appreciate like growing up valuing critical thinking and science. But as is the way of rebellious hammy children, it also just made me much more fascinated in people who had the opposite set of beliefs. But yeah, I grew up hearing a lot about cults because when my dad was a teenager in the late 1960s and early 70s, he was forced by his father, who was very interested in the blossoming countercultural movement of that era, to join what is now a pretty notorious compound cult called Synanon. Yes, and we're going to talk about that. Yeah. But first, let's get definitional because I want to start with a simple question of like, what is a cult?
3:12Give me a clear, crisp definition. I wish I could. What? That is a definition that I have been reckoning with now for the better part of my whole life, but formally for the past five or six years. I set out to write my book, Cultish, specifically interested in the language of cults from Scientology to SoulCycle. So how this wide spectrum of groups uses a specific roster of linguistic techniques to influence their followings for better and for worse. And I thought, well, the easy part will be defining what a cult is. But as it turned out, narrowing down a definitive way of articulating what a cult is proved one of the most challenging parts of writing that entire book.
4:00And, you know, there are plenty of cult scholars who have come up with rubrics for identifying a cult, but there's also, like, quite a fair bit of disagreement about that. And as everyday speakers, you know, the word cult belongs to us, you know? Like, meaning is ultimately defined by everyday speakers. Yes, and it's become aspirational. Like, we say things like, oh, they have a cult following. It's like all of a sudden skincare is cultish. On your podcast feed, and Sounds Like a Cult, you have covered Christian nationalism, Satanism, Manosphere, Joe Rogan, Kidfluencers, Chachi PT. By the way, I don't think Joe Rogan is necessarily a cult, but we'll get to that.
4:39But you have all these different cults. And I wonder, is everything a cult now, or do you just need to make a weekly podcast? Or a tri-weekly podcast? I feel like it's a very prolific podcast. Yeah. You know, when we were first starting the podcast, there was some skepticism. Like, are you going to run out of topic ideas? If this definition of the word cult is so broad, like, is it even meaningful? Yeah. But that's why on our show, we do have a sort of cheeky but ultimately pretty useful cult classification system, which is live your life, watch your back, get the fuck out. You know, the Kinsey scale of homosexuality, like, everyone's a little gay.
5:19It's like everything's a little cultish, but some people revel in it and some people don't. Yeah, I think in the United States in particular, we have a very distinct and consistent relationship with cultishness just because of the way that our nation was formed ostensibly and allegedly on religious freedom. But also, you know, we are a nation predicated on the Protestant ethic and, you know, like determining your own destiny. Meritocracy, American dream. That's right. And we also— You said meritocracy myth. Yeah. Yeah, well, you know, there is this idea in the U.S. that I even subscribe to sometimes, but also do critique, both and, both and, that like if you just work hard enough and put your nose to the grindstone, you know, another day, another dollar, whatever, we, you know, we will yield the results that we put in.
6:20And like you put a quarter of effort into the gumball machine of life and out will come your success. And, you know, there are so many like systemic barriers such that that meritocracy is not available in the same way to everyone, which shouldn't be a radical thing to say. But, you know, meritocracy is one of the tenets of the cult of the American dream. And at the same time, you know, the United States is kind of an outlier when it comes to religiosity because typically the more developed and resourced a nation is, the less religious they will be. But the U.S., despite all its resources, does tend to have a really religious population, including a cultish population, because we don't have as many social safety nets to catch us when we fall.
7:07You know, there's a lot of mistrust in the government and the health care system. And so, you know, that paves the way for a lot of alternative leaders to come in and say, I'll help you. I didn't grow up in the U.S., so the kind of way I look at it is there's been this creation of a country that has come from a lot of people who are persecuted from their own governments or felt they could come here for a better life. And so that had a kind of requisite distrust in government. And then there's obviously like a history of conspiracy theory, et cetera. Like Oliver Stone talks about this, like kind of the American mythology.
7:36And then a set of you can do it yourself, like individualism-driven mantras, the American dream, et cetera, that, yeah, you can create and manifest your own future. That's right. And what's been interesting is like as God has kind of receded in our cultural life and like modern millennial cultural life, et cetera, I feel like we're looking for God everywhere. Like I go to Barry's boot camp. I'm like, this guy's at a pulpit. He's like, you can do anything for 30 seconds. I'm like, yes, I can. You know, there's this kind of God is everywhere. Yoga, God's at Erewhon. It's expensive. God is expensive at Erewhon, but he is there.
8:10And, you know, God is everywhere in all of these non-religious things, which is the greatest scam. Yeah, no, I mean, self-improvement is, I think, the ultimate cult in this country. But at the same time, I want to hone in on the fact that you said millennial, like specifically like millennials are looking for God in Erwan and SoulCycle. And Hugh Research reflects that there has been an uptick in traditional religiosity among Gen Z, Gen Alpha. Yes, I feel like it's gone down. I think we were like the ones that were looking for God everywhere else. And then like the Gen Zers are like, oh, you know what?
8:44It exists. It's called church. No, there are all these interesting explanations for why that might be, including that, you know, young people now are rebelling against their Gen X atheist parents by, like, going back to Catholic Church. Also, obviously, there's a rise in, like, general conservatism in the United States. And so that has, like, encouraged an embrace of institutionalized religion. But it's also, I think, like, the family stuff is not a conservative issue. I think a lot of people are trying to figure out, like, oh, can I have this, like, hyper-individualist, hyper-capitalist dream and also have a family?
9:14and it's not just women thinking that, but just people thinking like what it takes to like raise other humans and build community around yourself. And so, you know, they could seek out religion, they could seek out, you know, partnership, they could seek out cults. And there's like a tension between the way we use community and the way we use cult these days. Are these interchangeable terms? Yeah. Well, what you or I might think of as a serious cult could be classified as a community or an accepted religion by someone else. Whereas like you and I probably participate in plenty of things that someone from a different perspective and a different background would think of as a cult.
9:53It's like the cult is in the eye of the not beholder. Like kind of literally, yes. I mean, and there are all these jokes that are told in religious studies. I heard the religious studies scholar Reza Eslan say like cult plus time equals religion. I've heard things said like a cult is a group where the leader thinks he can talk to God. A religion is a group where that leader is dead. You know, like when the prophet is dead, now it's a religion. And that, you know, that guy - So you're saying the fastest path to cult heroism or religiosity is death. We are fascinated by cults. There are lots of great films, documentaries.
10:29I want to tell you some of them that we have seen recently, and you tell me which is the best. Wild, Wild Country on Netflix. So great. Osha, Ma Sheila, the unsung hero of that cult. That docuseries is cult canon. It's great. Love Has Won, Cult of Mother God. Yeah. HBO's The Vow on the Nexim cult. Yep. Which is like the best one or stack rank them? Oh, that is tough. To understand cults, like what's the most revealing about the art and craft of culting? Oh, wow. Okay, I'm going to go The Vow, Wild, Wild Country, Love Has Won. And watch them all. And watch them all. And there's one more. Tiger King.
11:12That was a cult. I love that you included that because that is not necessarily, you know, categorized as a cult docuseries, but it totally is. Right? That one is super camp. Tonally, I was like, that came out right at the beginning of lockdown, remember? Tonally, it felt like a little absurd for my sensibility. but I did, I do, yeah. It's a cult. It's a cult. You know, death might be one way to fast track your cult but I think the best way in America, this country of great mythology and love for the puppy dog and kitty cat is animals, leveraging animals in your cult. No, it's fascinating that you say that because when, you know, we were talking about today's episode and I was thinking about like the sort of cult that I would build, I was like, I would definitely want to incorporate cute animals.
11:58Yeah, honestly. But you want, I don't, I think the thing with the tiger was, well, I mean, they didn't treat the animals well. They didn't treat the people well. They were terrible. I think it wasn't even the tone. I think I couldn't deal with the animal treatment. You can't look at that. If you have a cult, you have a good treatment of animals cult. I think, literally, I think if I genuinely were to try to start a cult, the gateway would be a cat cafe. A cat cafe. You know? It's good because it, why? What is it? What are the leading indicators of people who show up at cat cafes that would make them susceptible to a cult?
12:30I mean, you're so vulnerable. The one time I went to a cat cafe, my cat had just died. I was like, I needed to be around cats. I was like so vulnerable, but also like looking, I was seeking. I'm sorry about your cat. Oh, that's okay. Oh my God, David, bless him. Bless him, peace. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. But yeah, I was vulnerable because I had just experienced this loss. But at the same time, like I was still filled with enough hope and optimism that I wanted to get back out there. I wanted to connect. And the people who visit cat cafes, they're like, well, quite simply, they are the sorts of people that I would want to hang out with.
13:09You know, if you're going to start a cult, like you want to populate it with people that you would want to hang out with. Yes. So maybe not everyone wants to go to a cat cafe, but if you want to be in a cat cafe, join Amanda Montel's cat. Yeah. And I don't think it necessarily, cat cult. Yeah. I don't think it necessarily has to go to a negative and destructive place. Yeah. It just has to be fanatical fringe and feline enough. Yeah. Fanatical fringe, feline. Oh my God, put it on a t-shirt. This is good. Alliterative. This is what you've just done. Okay. We're going to do a quick paddle round where we're going to take this red and green paddles and you're going to tell me, I know it's not binary.
13:40I know cults are they them, not binary. But I want to say what is a cult and isn't a cult. Okay. So people can follow along. And then we'll get into the traits of a cult. So in this version of red paddle, green paddle, the red is going to be, it is a cult. It is a cult. Run away. Run away from the cult. Oh, so it's a cult and in a bad way. Cult in a bad way. Cult in a bad way. Got it. That's helpful. Yeah. And then green can be a cult in a good way. In a good way. And then no paddle can be, it's not a cult. Just put it on its side. Okay, amazing. I love this. Okay, we've tweaked the game. This is nuanced.
14:15Okay. Somehow. Somehow. I like it. Okay, orange theory. I've never been, but I think it's, I haven't heard any like terrible scandals. So I'm going to say cult in a good way. Okay, soul cycle. I don't know the answer. I mean, there have been, there have been scandals. There have, there have been allegations. Oh, you got to choose a color. Red Red It depends on the studio But I'm saying a little bit of red Is red Okay A little bit of red I mean People worship these instructors In a way that Could lead to power exploitation And has Okay What about Peloton then? I think the fact That it's virtual Green Green for you Is a protective measure Okay Virtual is a protective measure In this particular case What about millennial beige?
15:06I want to give it a red flag I feel like it is a killer. That's a note of taste. Killer of taste, right? And a personality. Yes. Yeah. It just, it reminds me of the cult that my dad was in, Synanon, because everybody was not forced to, but like groupthink-wise, psychologically incentivized to wear these like neutral coveralls every day. It gave, it literally gave millennial age. Red flag. That's a no. Okay, Erewhon, the grocery store that is overpriced beyond belief. Sammy Cohen, former guest on this podcast, posted a picture of a$10 ,000 plus plant. Yeah. They had like one branch. That's crazy.
15:41Right. I live in Los Angeles and I do take people to Erewhon as kind of a museum experience. I'm like, you got to see the$19 milk. I would call it a red flag, even though I do go there all the time. Because, yes, they have perpetuated the dogma of like raw milk and like the sort of make America healthy again doctrine. and that's no good. Is Harvard a cult? Yeah, 100%. Is it red or green? It's somewhere in the middle. What color would that be? Crimson red. Yeah, well, crimson red. Again, I'm biased because I have an ex who went to Harvard and he was so pretentious I wanted to slap him. But I think that academia in general is a bit of a pyramid scheme.
16:26It's so gatekeepy. It's such a weird, like, elitist brotherhood. that kind of follows you for the rest of your life, especially Ivy League academia. I would call Harvard like, it's brown. It's brown, okay. What are the like top three actually most dangerous run, if you can, cults right now that are active in the United States? Cults at large right now? Cults like actual cults. Like I'm talking about like NXIVM, like are they like actual? Once you throw out the term actual cult, like I'm just like, well. Everything. But I'm talking about like dangerous, like the stuff that would make a documentary in the year 2050.
17:04Ooh. What's happening right now? I mean, AI therapy. People, I mean, and I just wrote a piece for Oprah Daily about AI therapeutic tricks that chatbots will use to sound like these transcendently wise mental health gurus, but have actually resulted in people's suicides at worst. Yeah. But is there any specific ones like Charles Manson? Are there any like kind of cultish leaders that you want to call to account in this? You're like looking at them and you're like, I think in 15 years, this person is going to be the subject of a Netflix series. I am just like my particular interests and curiosities.
17:41I'm really oriented toward the mental health space. And so like I have seen certain really like power exploitative mental health gurus build massive cult followings on social media, but have been sort of felled because like cults on Instagram and TikTok and these different platforms, they're kind of easy come, easy go. Yeah. Like you don't need the same type of charisma to inveigle people online who are succumbing to an algorithm. Yeah. The way that you need a certain type of charisma to like get people to show up to an in-person sort of churchy space and keep them interested for three hours as as you speak on a pulpit.
18:25So I have seen like the rise and fall of certain leaders. I wrote about one in the Age of Magical Overthinking. I gave her a pseudonym because she's like famously harassing and litigious. I called her the manifestation doctor in the book. I do think actually, I do think we will end up seeing like a Maha RFK Jr. documentary at some point. But I just watched the Murdoch documentary on Netflix, docu-series about like the Murdoch Empire, Fox News, all of that. I do think that in the not-too-distant future, we will remember the Murdochs as a cult family. Really? Yeah. Joe Rogan, last one of this—I think he's—I think it's a green.
19:04That's wild. I don't—I mean, I think if it's a cult, it's, like, not—like, I don't know. I mean, I— Do you listen? Do you listen to Joe Rogan? Oh, here and there, but he, like, he makes my ears bleed. I don't think it's a cult. It's cultish. What do you guys think? We're asking Desta and Colin. It's a cult. What do you think? Desta's story's out. It's on the border. Is he any more cultish than Mel Robbins? Mel Robbins feels more cultish today. I mean, Mel Robbins is like Joe Rogan for women. Okay, so Mel Robbins, green or red? I mean, yeah. Again, these are all my subjective classifications, right?
19:36Red or green, though? I mean, for me, red. I'm so allergic to worshipping the absolutist dogma of any one individual group, guru, or glossary. It's alliteration day. here at Smart Girl Talk Questions. Yeah, I mean, people who just like default to what would Joe Rogan say? What would Mel Robbins say? I mean, that's an invitation to consider like how loyal you are to this one person. I know you haven't had a very crisp definition of yet. We're gonna get to that. You talk about conversion, conditioning, and coercion. Yes, yes. So talk about each of those three items. Okay, so these three Cs were coined by a scholar named Rebecca Moore.
20:19as a kind of alternative to the term brainwashing, which is useful and powerful for some and can feel judgmental for others. So this is just kind of another way of thinking about it. Conversion is that moment that you experience either scrolling or in person singing a spiritual song. Something happens that crosses you over into this mental place where you're like, my life is different now. Like, I am subscribing to this group in a really profound way. You know, conditioning is, you know, most of us are familiar with this definition. The act of, you know, cueing someone to respond a certain way to certain stimuli.
21:05The stimuli that I'm most interested in are linguistic. And then coercion is, you know, getting someone through various techniques to act in ways that maybe violate their prior values. So conversion is like that, like I saw the light moment. It happens to many people in September around Burning Man. And it happens to the rest of us entrenching us in the cult of not Burning Man from those people going. Thank you for your service. Yeah. And we're recording this right after Coachella happened. And I literally felt like I was on the outside of a cult going down. Really? Oh, I feel like each tent is a Sahara tent.
21:41It's its own cult. For sure. Every tent is a cult. 100%. And then so conversion is the I saw the light moment. Conditioning is the, ooh, I like it. I want more of this. This is the rituals, the repetition, et cetera, that you're leaning into it. And the coercion is like the, I can't tell anyone else. Like I have like this bonding with this thing. It's that sort of ends justify the means of like I have sunk so many costs and resources into this group that was promised to change my life and that I really felt would change my life. But now I'm engaging in behaviors that maybe I don't entirely recognize.
22:15So it's the I can't let go moment. Kind of, yeah. Okay. And you talk a lot about kind of thought-terminating cliches that help reinforce this cycle. And what are some of the cliches? Because you said you're interested in language and how that reinforces cults. Talk about some of the phrases that would be kind of red flag indicators that you might be nearing a cult. So one of the most significant power tools in every cult leader's linguistic repertoire is the thought-terminating cliché. This is a phrase that was coined in the early 60s by a psychiatrist named Robert J. Lifton, and it's also known as a semantic stop sign.
22:50It's a sort of zingy stock expression that's easy to memorize, easy to repeat, and aimed at shutting down independent thinking and questioning. Give me one. Okay. So in everyday life, a thought-terminating cliche might come in the form of, you know, dismissing someone with a phrase like, oh, everything happens for a reason, or it's all in God's plan. you just don't want to have to think about more complex reasons for someone's pain or for someone's cognitive dissonance but in a cult scenario you know let's say you're in a multi-level marketing cult let's say that you know you're not becoming a millionaire in a year like they all promised because this is a rigged scammy system and you're you know complaining to your upline or at least just like expressing some doubts, they might serve you with a phrase like, that is just a victim mindset.
23:42You know, a good system always works. And this is a good system. I've heard thought terminating cliches in conspiracy theory type groups, QAnon type groups sound like, you know, you need to do your own research. You know, like if you express. But that seems like a thought inviting cliche. Like you would go do your own research, presumably. Well, they just want to get rid of you. By saying it, you might think, oh, well, they've done the research and they know, so I don't need to go do the research. That's the idea. Wouldn't work on me, QAnon. No, 100%. Like let's say you're in a conversation with someone and you're expressing, I don't know, like a sentiment that you saw in an empirical study.
24:18Yeah. And, you know, they feel that that is contaminated. They might say like, oh, you just need to do your own research, which essentially means stop asking me about mine. Yeah. What about enemies? Like if I want to have a cult, do I need an enemy? For sure. It would help. Yeah, you need to establish an us versus them dynamic. There needs to be, you need to be fighting against something so that you can build solidarity within. Okay. So what I would like to do for like 10 minutes is to play around and make a cult. I would like, this is why I've actually invited you here. It has nothing to do with the podcast.
24:52I actually just wanted free consulting services on how to build a robust cult around smart girl dumb questions. Oh, beautiful. But do you think the problem, this is a problem. I could have done it myself maybe, but it was hard because Smart Girl Time Questions is really built around curiosity. I know. That is tough. If you are genuinely open to being wrong, then building that long-lasting, sticky, exploitative cult is going to be tough. Because, yeah, curiosity, like it doesn't have a lot of thought-limiting cliches or thought-terminating cliches. So this is going to be hard, but I think we can do it.
25:28I still think, I will try. I'll put like my earnestness to the side for a sec. And I have an enemy. Okay. The enemy I think everyone hates. The enemy is the know-it-all. Oh, the know-it-all. Everybody hates a know-it-all. Yeah. I mean. The whole idea is like you're not dumb. You're just curious. Yeah. And nobody likes a know-it-all. So I feel like that's the thing. The dumbest thing you can actually be is a know-it-all. So I think we have a good enemy. Okay, great. So we're going to need to coin a zingy nickname to villainize that enemy. Oh. I mean, know-it-all is fine. Somebody are giving it a C.
25:58It doesn't sound fine, but okay. Yeah. Know-it-all is like a phrase that everyone knows. Like it's used in common conversation. But you could infuse it with this really foreboding energy. This is a technique known as loaded language. Okay. Such that like the last thing that an insider in the cult of smart girl, dumb questions would ever want to be is a know-it-all. You could even call it a KIA. A KIA? Know-it-all. I know it all. Yeah, you know what? And that has that plosive K. Kia. This podcast brought to you by Kia. By Kia. We're never going to have advertising from Kia if we go with this. But okay, I know it all.
Read the full transcript
26:38I feel like KIA sounds good. KIA is good because it intimates killing somehow. Yeah, it does. It has that plosive K. It sounds like a slur. So yeah. Kia. Okay, so KIA. I think KIA sounds good. It's ugly. Everybody loves an insidery acronym. Great. It makes you feel like you have access to knowledge that other people don't. So KIA is great. And then you're going to need the opposite. You're going to need a term, like a really cozy approving term for the opposite. For the insiders. For the insiders. What do you think it should be? Because we were thinking it can't be dummies. That doesn't sound aspirational.
27:15No, that's not so nice. It can't sound smarties. That sounds annoying and also not aspirational. Kind of like KIAs. We could coin our own neologism. I mean, we could coin our own brand new word. What do you think? Could be. You're not a cult co-leader yet, Amanda, so we, just so you know, I just want to establish the hierarchy. And that's so fair. It can be the Mashila, who is actually the more powerful person in the community. Totally, totally. Yes. No, the neck that turns the head. Okay, so a neologism. A neologism. A neologism. Yeah, I think, what are some, like, terms of endearment that people use?
27:46Like, I'm thinking smooth brain. Like, I just want to be smooth brain. So maybe, like, we could, you could, the insiders could be, like, smoothies. The smoothies. What about something using the word Q? Is it too loaded with QAnon? No. But it's like questioners or like the questioners. Yeah. The questioners is interesting. I like that, the questioners. Okay. I really like that. I really like that. You like that? Yeah, I like that a lot. So we've got the KIA. The KIA. Enemy and the questioners. Which reminds me, you know, like in Scientology, enemies to the cult are known as SPs, which stands for suppressive person.
28:21So a KIA to the Smart Cold Dumb Questions cult is the SP to Scientology. Yeah. And apparently Colin, our sound engineer today, has just told me KIA means killed in action. Okay, great. So there are these negative associations. Which is what might happen to our enemies. I'm kidding. This is not a violent cult. No, it's not violent. It's not violent. It's a nonviolent cult. It's just threatening. It's just threatening. And do I need a robe or do you think Zara will suffice? Zara's fine. Zara's fine. Zara's perfect. Zara's also a cult. 1 ,000%. And what about me as a cult leader? what do you think I need?
28:52You're going to need some, you're going to need some highly repeatable mantras. Okay. That people can all say in unison to rile themselves up and build solidarity. Like you're not dumb, you're just curious. Great. Which was on a billboard. Yeah, I would shorten it so that everybody can be like, not dumb, just curious. And you can do like a call and response. Okay. Just to make people - Not dumb, just curious. Oh my God. Okay. Where are we going? We're going on the streets. We're protesting something. No, I mean, their scientific studies have been done on the spiritual power of group chants. They lower stress hormones.
29:30I think they could really help bond everyone. And what about money? Because like one of the ways that I, you know, so far I've monetized this podcast only through brands. I actually really don't want to charge people money. To listen, yeah. To listen or to like subscribe, whatever. I haven't done that yet. And no shade to anyone who does that. But I've struggled with that idea. Like do we charge money? because I feel like a telltale sign of a cult is also like there's some kind of initiation fee. Yes and no. I do think like the more grassroots cults don't necessarily like charge a formal initiation fee all the time.
30:05It might just be a matter of like surrendering various freedoms. Okay. So there are ways to exploit people. Like the freedom to know. No, I'm just kidding. You can still know. I think there are absolutely sacrifices that you can have people make that don't involve money. Okay. Like they're firstborn. Totally. Okay. Great. And some mantras. You said I need mantras. Yeah. Well, I need Riz. First of all, as a leader, I need Riz. You have Riz. Okay. So we're good. We're good. You have plenty of Riz. Enough for to be a cult leader? I mean, the thing about having a podcast is that like Riz can be cultivated in post.
30:35Yes. Oh, that's true. Wait, are you saying that's not happening right now? No. This is perfect. You have like an overabundance of Riz. I need some conviction. Like curiosity is the best way. Yeah, definitely. Oh my God, no. You have to believe your own sentiments. And I need, this is where I'm challenged, a willingness to exploit others, I think. I don't think it would be that hard. Like you start small, you know, like you start. A little exploitation? Yeah, start small. Start with like a little bit of unpaid labor from like a really devoted listener. Oh gosh, okay. And you could probably, yeah, you would get used to it and then you could build.
31:11Oh, fuck. Okay. I might have already had that. Keep going. Totally. I mean, parasocial relationships are so profound. People are sending ideas all the time. Yeah, yeah. No, just start small. Start small. No cult leader ever started with the most extreme version of their group. They just opportunistically went where the followers seemed to want to go. They were never like, I would like to brand people and stamp them. They just came up with it on the go. On the fly. Okay. They're not masterminds. They're opportunists. I don't think I'm set up for a cult. Actually, here's this. our target recruit?
31:43I mean, what are your listener demographics? I would just lean - 80 % Gen Z and millennial. It means a little bit of God, a little bit of not God. Okay. But you have like a theory, like, I mean, there's a lot of research around people who are vulnerable to cults. A lot of this is around loneliness. Sure. And also counterintuitively, optimism. Optimism. Yeah. I feel like we might have that in our audience. If you don't, totally. If you don't believe that solutions to the world's most urgent problems or at least the most urgent problems in your life can be found, then you're not going to invest in a cult.
32:14Okay. Do we have a exit cost? Because you have also said that like cults have a high exit cost. That's one of the variables that you're defining of a cult. I mean, it could just be as simple as the fear that you're going to become a KIA. Okay. Oh yeah. No one wants to be a KIA. No. That's good. Okay. I think we have a good cult. Yeah. If you would like to subscribe to the cult. We'll do like an ad roll just here and put it in.
32:43Okay, you're already in the cult of SGDQ because you are not a KIA, but I need your help with some evangelism. Three easy steps. One, I need you to hit subscribe or follow if you haven't already. Two, I need you to leave us a review, ideally with five stars, and leave us some comments. I read every single one. And then third, I need you to share this with five friends as part of this unpaid multi-level marketing operation I'm running at SGDQ. And by the way, if you like this conversation, you are going to love our episode with Patrick Radden-Keefe from a few weeks ago. It's about how to spot a fraud, a fake, or a grifter.
33:12And next week's episode, which is about, well, it's a little culty, but it's about pronatalism. And I speak to this couple who has a handful of kids and like 30 plus embryos on ice. Now, back to the episode with Amanda Montel.
33:28This summer, serve up the cookout classics, Heinz ketchup and Kraft singles. Every good burger needs a layer of perfectly melty cheese and thick, rich ketchup. We all know it's not a cookout without Heinz and Kraft. Good sleep is everything. That's why Oli's Science Bag Support is made with a blend of melatonin and L-theanine for both kiddos and grown-ups. So when your mind won't switch off, you've got something that can help. Erasing thoughts and restless nights won't stand a chance. Find Oli's sleep solutions for the whole family at Oli.com. That's O-L-L-Y dot com. How much do cults cost? I mean, the cost is incredibly variable.
34:13Some of the cost isn't even financial. Yeah, but in the financial cost, like some of these things we're talking about, matcha, Erewhon, et cetera, they're expensive to get in. Like certain orders or masons or whatever, they charge you an annual membership fee. Is that a leading indicator of a cult or a cost not a leading indicator of a cult? It certainly can be because, again, like there's not like a definitive checklist. There is like a rubric. And this is why we have our Live Your Life, Watch Your Back, Get the Fuck Out spectrum because it's like you don't necessarily have to require people to devote their life savings to your group in order to be a dangerous cult.
34:53But if you do, check. Price tag on a cult could be$0. It could be like$1 ,000 a year to be part of a cult, a donation as you see fit, or it looks free, but it could cost you your life. Totally. That's the last is the most dangerous. It is actually a calculus because some people could justify like, well, I haven't actually spent any money on this group, but let's say you've spent 40 hours a week of your time, or let's say you've just devoted emotional resources like hope or secrets. Which is what you, one of these defining characteristics you talk about is the exit costs of a cult. And those are high.
35:30Even if the price tag in is low, the price tag out is high. Yeah. Talk about why. Well, because if you've, you know, if all of your friends, if like your sense of identity and self-worth is bound up with this group, then even if there aren't threats, like someone's going to beat you up if you leave or, you know. You have to return your laptop or whatever. Yeah. Or like you're going to be fine. Certain corporate cults. Or, you know, it will be so spiritually threatening for you that like an alien will kill your soul or whatever. There will still be the exit cost of like you sacrificing connections that mean something to you and your own sense of self.
36:08I feel like corporate capitalism is a cult and like healthcare is your high exit fee. Healthcare and like the loss of identity when someone asks you like what you do and then you tell them what you do and you're like, I have a podcast. I have this. And everyone looks at you like, are you poor? Totally. Does that make anything? Yeah. Is that, is corporate capitalism a cult? Absolutely. More than socialism? I mean, you're going to get me canceled. No, I— No, what's the answer? I mean, I cannot tell you definitively, but I do know that this is one of the reasons why it is so important to keep a whole foot or at least a toe outside of the political ideology that you subscribe to.
36:45Even if that's just like a governmental structure or an approach to economics, like whenever I— What were you going to say that was going to get you canceled? To say that, like, capitalism is cultier than socialism or socialism is cultier than capitalism. It's just, like, it's going to trigger people, like, because this word cult, again, is so sensationalistic. But do you have an instinct on that? I mean, capitalism is certainly more powerful than socialism. Capitalism is, like, the air we breathe, the water we swim in. Socialism is, like, the fringier approach to life at this point. So it depends on your definition of a cult, you know?
37:21And I am sorry that these answers are not as like satisfying and concrete as they otherwise could be. But this is like, this is that like abstract curiosity that I operate in, you know? I think that our cult, the Smart Girl Dumb Questions cult is going to have some challenges. I think the curiosity thing is really in the way. I feel like it's really like, because it's like the whole thing is people will start, the questioners will have questions. The questioners will have questions. They'll be like, you're so into curiosity. How do we know you're not a KIA for curiosity? It's like, I just think it can't work.
37:54And this is what I struggle with too, because I like, yeah, I mean, on Sounds Like a Cult, we encourage people to see cultishness everywhere they look. And so of course they see cultishness in us. And so there's skepticism toward us, which great. And like, I wrote about cognitive biases in my third book and critical thinking. And so people are like, you know, oh, well, and they say it in a bad way, But I actually take it as a compliment. They're like, well, we need to read this book critically then too. And I'm like, literally, yes. Yes. Like, correct. Literally, yes. We'll do a little bit of a lightning round.
38:30Beautiful. Okay. Fuck, marry, kill. Goop, Pilates, Erewhon.
38:38Marry, Pilates, fuck, goop, kill, Erewhon. Wow. And you go there. And you go there. I mean, I can live without it. But I cannot live without those goop salads. and I cannot live without my Pilates routine. Yeah, there's a high Venn diagram between those three things. Absolutely. I think actually if you kill one, you might kill all in this case. That's really interesting. Yeah. That could be a domino effect for sure. What is the most cultish brand in America?
39:09The most cultish brand in America. Is it like Levi's? I was going to say like Costco. they have like the like i think it's like the first or second most distributed publication in america the costco magazine well that's actually impossible to answer because there are like cult brands in a cheeky way like taco bell and then there are love taco bell me too and there are brands that are actually owned by real cults like yogi t oh it's owned by a cult It's owned by the Happy Healthy Holy Organization. The Happy Healthy Holy— Which is a kundalini yogi cult. But they give us little affirmations and advice.
39:52But it's literally owned by an actual cult. Don't have the yogi tea, ginger tea? I mean, buy it if you want, but it is good. I mean— You're saying— La, la, la, there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. That can be used as a thought terminating cliche, actually. There's no ethical consumption under capitalism. Yeah. That is a way to— It can be to excuse. Yes, that's right. Okay. If you had to join a cult, which one would it be besides mine? Like a cult that everybody would agree is a cult. Yes. I would do the like no technology compound in the woods homesteader thing. Oh, okay. You're into that.
40:23Yeah. Is there a particular one you've looked into? too. I did hear about this one particular college where like really privileged people just like cosplay like farmer in the woods living 200 years ago. There's like a brand new novel about a woman who wakes up and she's a trad wife. And Anne Hathaway has just like optioned it. Yeah. So yes, it's called Yesteryear. Yes. So it's based on a, so there's a real university somewhere or college? I don't think it's based on that, but like that type of vibe is in the ether. I think people are just nostalgic for a time before iPhones. Yes. So there were, sorry, there are two things that you were talking about.
41:03There's a book yesteryear, and then you were saying you'd heard of a college. There is a college. I forget what it's called. It's like a no technology college where kids like farm and, you know, like DIY their own. It's like a hippie compound situations. Giving Topanga. Are we building a cult around loneliness? I think the loneliness epidemic has paved the way for a lot of cult leaders to step in with perceived savior solutions. Yeah, it's like that combination of like we're, we've never been more lonely as a people and as individuals as we are today plus the proliferation of podcasting is like a recipe for more cults to form.
41:46So true. Yeah. And thus, Joe Rogan is kind of occult. I don't think Joe Rogan's that occult-y. Wow. I think that might be because you're in it. I'm not in it. I don't listen regularly to Joe Rogan. I just like don't feel like when I meet people who listen to Joe Rogan, they're not, they kind of like look at him with a sense of like, here's what's good, here's what's bad. Okay, there were people who had a really positive experience with Jonestown. But I feel like they're, no, what I'm saying is like the listeners of Joe Rogan often have nuance about Joe Rogan. Often, but he has his accolades. He has his accolades.
42:17I think that's one of the kind of telltales for me. If you look at someone like Elon Musk, there are people who are like, he can do no wrong. Someone like Mark Zuckerberg, bizarrely, like there are people around him that like really know him. They're like, this is what Mark does well. And this is what Mark does badly. But Mark has so much power. Yeah. And has like, doesn't, doesn't he have a, doesn't he, isn't it a part of his, um, I don't even have the link, like corporate language to describe this, but can't he not be deep-rowned? He has, um. He can't be unseated. He has a dual class share structure, which allows him to remain king forever.
42:49That's a cult leader. Can the algorithm be a cult? Yes. Yeah. Because it's just encouraging us to fall down rabbit holes, encouraging us to believe more and more extreme versions of what we already do. Is the algorithm more like what we were talking about, like loneliness and podcasting, a gateway to the cult? Or is the algorithm itself cultish? Both. Both. Because like we can all be a member—each of us can be a member of a cult of our own creation because of the algorithm, co-created with social media algorithms. So what is the smallest a cult could be? Can a one—can you have a one-person cult?
43:23100%. Really? Oh, yeah. I think you can have a—I mean, I've written about cults of one. Like if you're in a toxic relationship with one human being who's only charismatic to you. You do talk about this. Yeah. You talk about love bombing as one of the ways to get you in the, what was it called? Conversion. Conversion. Yeah. Yes, love bombing as a path to conversion in those three Cs we talked about earlier. So, okay. You can be, yeah, certain relationships. Are cult-like. Yeah, because then the person will say, you don't see what I see. Totally. Or what else do they say? No one understands what we have.
43:57Yep. Yeah. Okay. But is there a way like to help people out of that cult besides being like blink twice? Yeah. Well, it is famously hard to change people's minds. Adults tend to commit pretty hard to the choices that they've made for a million reasons. It's a lot easier to say what not to do. You definitely don't want to accuse someone of being in a cult. That is alienating and judgmental. You don't want to accuse someone of being brainwashed. Again, they're not going to want to listen to you. If you can stomach it, keeping them in your life and showing them the sense of community and respect that they are clearly seeking from this cult or cult-like relationship so that they know that if they ever want to leave, they will have a support system to fall back on.
44:49That's interesting. I mean, so the question really is like, how do you deprogram from a cult? For you, but really for someone you know and love, which is now it's like we're serious territory. We were joking about the smart girl, dumb questions cult. This is like a very serious territory. Because like I think people have this experience these days of like, you know, losing their loved ones to like intense political extreme positions, left or right, or to, yeah, or to like they're paying all their money into some church or some organization or some camp or whatever it is. And so in those situations, what are three things you can do to help someone and three things you shouldn't do?
45:32Yeah. Yeah. Don't tell them they're in a cult. Don't accuse them of being brainwashed. If you're trying to argue with someone who's particularly in like an anti-science type cult who has, you know, been conditioned to perceive sources like the CDC as contaminated, don't use sources like that to argue with them because that will make them feel unseen. Things to do, approach them with respect and empathy, as hard as that might be, as much as you want to like overtly judge them to their face. Show them that there like is an alternative and that everyone outside this group is not actually evil and stupid.
46:14I would say, you know, smart girl, dumb questions, use the Socratic method, you know, Ask them genuine questions to try and potentially get them to see the holes in their own beliefs. And yeah, I mean, encourage them to keep one toe out of the group as much as possible. Take them to alternative gatherings. It's like come to bingo night on Thursday. Yes. Invite them. Give them an invitation or a question. I like that. Like invitations and questions I think are great ways to find common ground and to have time with people. um, Nick Christophe said this to me once about when you're talking to someone who is, you know, really, um, set on the, you know, on protecting gun ownership, et cetera, like a card care member of NRA, they're very diehard on this issue.
47:02The best thing you can do is start with a question that's small, like, oh, so what do you think the minimum age should be? Like, do you feel, do you ever feel it's a bit young? And so starting to understand like the edges of their argument, because I think a lot of times we have and espouse and the algorithm and our world actually like encourages us to be KIAs and have this like articulate a sense of conviction about everything. And I think anybody, if you really ask in a good faith way, will reveal to you some of their edges and that's like how you start a conversation. So true. I really agree.
47:34Truly no one KIAs. No one KIAs. No one K's IA. What about one tactic, which is voting with your feet. If somebody is having, if somebody close to you is like in a really dangerous situation or in a not good situation, it's like there's one school of thought which is like actually leave. Don't stay there and be their friend. Tell them this is important enough. I'll tell you, I was in a bad relationship once a long time ago. And one of my best friends from Panama really didn't like this relationship, didn't like the guy. Yeah. And effectively was like kind of receded from our friendship. Like I kind of knew she was there.
48:16Like if I showed up in Panama, like I was still invited to her wedding. If I showed up in Panama, I would still stay at her parents' house, whatever. But she kind of like decided that she was going to pull away from our friendship in like a really visible way. And funnily, I said this to the man I was dating. And he said something like, she's voting with her feet because she thinks this relationship is so bad for you. And it was actually him saying it to me that opened up my eyes that I was like, wow, he sees what's happening. and it wasn't like he he he kind of like I was like oh wow and um and I actually really appreciated that because she wasn't going to be an enabler that's actually what it was right right right and you know that's a completely valid approach as well I I guess I was thinking about it more from the perspective of like if your child is in this group or if it's someone who like Like the thought of you not being in their life even temporarily is torturous.
49:09But like we each have to approach our own boundaries individually. I think the boundaries thing has become a real cult, by the way. Like it's like – and it's keeping you away from this other thing, which is community. I mean like real C community, not cultish community. Yeah. And I think that's the whole like, oh, I must have my boundaries so that I can meditate twice a day. I must have my boundaries so I can eat healthy. I don't owe you anything. So I can be healthy. It's like you are in a cult of one. It is yourself. It is really feeding into the capitalist structure that is like your local Pilates studio, matcha place, whatever.
49:38Actually, we just did – I just did an episode of my other podcast because this is how deep in the cult of podcasting I am. I have two. I just did an episode of my Magical Overthinkers podcast called Overthinking About Flakiness. And it was like reckoning with some of these same ideas. I do think there's just – there are certain times and you kind of know when you're like, oh, yeah, I want to retreat from the situation. And sometimes that like retraction can attract somebody and make them feel the costs. Yeah, totally. I mean, there's no like magic bullet or magic spell to get someone to snap out of a situation that is harmful to them and to you.
50:16But I think it does require like some amount of experimentation and commitment to being there for them in a number of ways. Well, you're not voting with your feet, but I'm going to eject you out of my cult. There can only be one, as they say in the film Highlander, soon. But this is my last question. I end every episode asking my non-KI guests, what are they dumb about? What is a question you have that you've been kind of embarrassed to ask out loud? I've been traveling a lot lately. I'm like kind of under slept. You know, like my body doesn't feel tip top.
50:53Why is the only thing I want to eat right now? like cookies, french fries, and martinis when like the actual healthy thing that would like make me feel better would be like kale and— Yeah. Why when we need healthy nutrition the most do we want it the least? Oh, that's a good question. I feel it too. Because like if I— I was exhausted yesterday and I found myself just like snacking on sugar. Literally. I was just like— I like raided my mini bar and was like eating gummies. Okay. I'm like, why did I do that? Like it would make me feel so much better. There were healthy options there, but you chose the gummies.
51:31Oh, and the mini bar? Probably not. But I could have gone out and like gotten some fucking blueberries. Like all I want when I'm already feeling bad is to like put more carcinogens in my body. What is that? What is that? It was the self-fulfilling prophecy of feeling like shit. You know what? We, the questioners, the cult of the questioners are going to question this for you. Thank you so much, Amanda Montal, for being here. You can check her out on Sounds Like a Cult and apparently a second podcast, which is called? Magical Overthinkers. Magical Overthinkers. Get her books and especially this new one that's coming out in 2028, a novel called Where to Put Your Tongue.
52:01That's right. Yeah. Any like, you know, hints on where that might be? Oh, sure. It's about a Hollywood dialect coach who teaches. I thought it was going to be exciting. Oh, no. It's about a Hollywood dialect coach who gets involved with a sort of cult-followed Nepo Baby director with a salacious secret. Oh, a salacious secret. A sexy secret. Okay. Well, Nepo Babies, they put their tongues where they want. All right. Thank you so much, Amanda. Appreciate you. Thank you. Bye. I love that conversation with Amanda. Less like plotting world domination in my own cult, but more the conversation about how to help people out of a cult.
52:35And just thinking about the world we live in, how commercialized it is, how connective it is in a way, and also how predatory it can become. I don't actually think everything is a cult and maybe thinking everything is a cult is its own kind of cult. But one thing is for sure, our desire to belong is so deeply human and sometimes it can be deeply dangerous. What do you think about cults and also just about in the cult of SGDQ, what else we should cover. Please leave us a comment or a review or send me an email. I'm naima raza101 at gmail.com. I'd love to hear your thoughts about what episodes we should do and what this cult should be doing as we keep going.
53:07By the way, next week's episode is a banger. It's a little bit culty with this pronatalist couple. And pronatalism, if you're not familiar, is a movement to have lots of babies to push back against these demographic collapse headlines. It's a little bit wild and they have these forays into like right-wing culture and Washington. and I just want to understand what drives this couple. So you should definitely tune in for that. You should check out our episode with Patrick Raddenke from a few weeks ago on Grift and then tell me what else you would like to hear or see in the feed. That's it for this week.
53:34This episode was produced with Desta Wunderad, Santana Nigam, Melissa Lee Gibson, and Aisha Jordan. It was mixed by Camp Shankin. I'm your host and cult leader, Naeem Maraza, and I'll see you next week for an all new Smart Girl Dumb Questions.
53:52Thank you.
54:30Thank you.
55:03technical sub Zuschased was lowuya saw that's why will from is because it does was talking stuff last year撮影 and also have shot were deprived
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From the publisher
Nayeema and cult expert Amanda Montell unpack why cults are everywhere now, why we’re obsessed with them and what all of that has to do with modern loneliness and capitalism. Montell — the bestselling author of Cultish and host of the podcast Sounds Like A Cult breaks down the innocuous language that will suck you in and how to help someone you love get OUT.
Oh, and naturally they try to build a cult around Smart Girl Dumb Questions. We’re not above that.
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