Why Do People Run? with Olympian Alexi Pappas

0:00I'm not going to do a long intro. I get uncomfortable with intros anyway, which we can talk about. Smart girl. Dumb questions. This is Smart Girl Dumb Questions. I'm Naeema Raza and I'm not going to give you a long introduction today because my guest has to run. Literally. Alexi Pappas is an amazing runner, an Olympian, a I don't know how many times you were a NCAA running finalist. How many times? I actually only went to two NCAA. Well, no. That's not true. Depends if you count the relay teams. Yeah, I think we count Relay. Yeah, we have several, a handful. Handful. You're an amazing runner. You're also an author, a filmmaker.

0:36You've written a beautiful book called Bravey, which I think is a very brave book to have written. Thank you. We're going to talk about all of that. But first of all, I want to start with this question that plagues me, which is why does anyone run? Well, do you run? I was thinking about this and I was like, I wanted to know what your experience was. Oh, yes. I am not much of a runner. Running is something I do at airports when I'm about to miss my flight and at a workout class when, you know, doing it at high intensity. But I'm not a person who goes and runs for X number of miles or hours or...

1:06We actually should give some background on how you and I met. Yes. Should we do that real quick? Yeah. We were in a snowy party in Park City. Yes. And a really kind person crutched toward me and it was you. And we have mutual friends, which I think is always a nice way to meet somebody. You make it sound so romantic. I feel like we were in a snow globe or something. You were. in our imagination. We were at the Sundance Film Festival. I made the smart decision to go to the slopes when no one else was there. And I ended up tearing my ACL in a ski accident. And then afterwards at the party, I hobbled towards Alexi.

1:40There is this thing of like, right place, right time. You just were such a friend to me throughout the recovery from my ACL. And you're an athlete. And you introduced me also to other athletes who had gone through injury. And you told me to listen to my body. I mean, you were amazing. be your godsend. I was talking to my friend about how we met and I was like, you know, a lot of times you go to these film festivals and people are, they need something. They have a goal, like they need to network or they need to like, there's some goal, right? And I've been thinking a lot lately about how people, if you go into an interaction, like with a goal, there's only certain circumstances in life where you should have a goal, right?

2:20Like if you're trying to run a marathon, there's a goal. If you're trying to run eight miles, there's a goal. but when you're trying to meet people the goal should be to just be present and I remember that party in particular I was like with family friends and I was like I'm just gonna like whatever this is like have fun and you had the same kind of presence where it didn't feel like you needed anything it felt like you were actually present yeah we were there to celebrate that is a great way to put it and actually Esther Perel and I just had this conversation because I asked her this dumb question of why is it harder to fall in love as we get older and it seems to get harder in your like you have crushes all the times in your teens in your 20s then it's kind of more rare when you're in your 30s and 40s but part of what she had to say was that something happens in your 30s you're looking for something and so the intentionality is fighting with the passion right there's there's that like lingering need that people have as they get older yeah but then we decided it's great to date after like in your older ages like in dating in your 80s she was a super fan of so oh interesting yes how do you feel about running in your 80s do a lot of people do that people do I feel like I've tried to move away from the sport in a few different instances in my life one because I thought that I had to eventually retire was this word that I think it was really a strong word especially in the running world like in the 2016 the like Phelps era people retired and I was like when am I am I going to retire and then I realized running is not a sport that you need to retire from and there's so many different ways to be a part of it and even when I tried I was like I'll play tennis now I was like I just like keep wanting to run and so when I think about running my 80s I think I will not have I'll have fewer and fewer goals or needs but I'm sure I will be moving at some pace in my 80s because I love it so much.

4:16And it is the nicest way to explore the planet for me and socialize. Running is. So this is the question. So why do people run? I had Neil deGrasse Tyson on this show and he talked about how he's never seen someone smiling while they're running. All I know is that when I see people jogging, none of them are smiling.

4:37So whereas people in the gym, they smile. So why do you do it? When did you start doing it? I mean, we all did it as kids, I guess. Yeah, you chase boys on the playground. I literally did that. My dad put me in sports when my mom passed away when I was four. He put me in every sport because I think he saw it as the best way to teach me how to fall down and get back up without talking about it. And running was like the strength across these sports, like stealing bases in softball, running up and down the soccer field and basketball court but I didn't love running until college when I found people to enjoy it with I find it fine to run alone but I enjoy it with company so even when I'm alone I'm like listening to a podcast or audiobook or music and so what I like about running personally is there's like a feeling that has nothing to do with my performance like I literally have a feeling when I'm in shape that feels like abundant and amazing.

5:36And then I like the social element. Like I like exploring the woods with friends and I do laugh and I do smile, but it's because I'm going a pace that's like talking pace most of the time. I mean, you're also happened to be Greek. You were an Olympian. The history of the marathon is something fascinating. Do you know the history of the marathon? So can you tell the story of the first, where the word marathon comes from? Oh yeah. It's, well, now I'm going to mess up. Someone had to run from marathon to report about the war or something. And it ended up being a marathon length and then died at the end.

6:14Which is why everyone's like, well, it's painful. And he died. And so why are we doing this over and over again? That's the history. It's in ancient Greece. Some guy has to go report on a war. So he's like coming to say, oh, they're coming. So this guy runs 26.2 miles, gets there and then collapses. That's the history of this term. And yet every November in New York and every month in other cities around the world, people are gathering to run these 26.2 miles. Yeah. I think there's so many reasons why people run. Wanting to see yourself do something that's hard but attainable. Right? Like if you've seen thousands of people run through New York, you think I could do that too.

6:54But I know it's harder than a 5K. I think that people need opportunities to see themselves go through a safe challenge. And I think people see the marathon as a safe, definitely, like, relatively safe, definitely challenge. Even though it killed a man. Even though it killed a man. And it's also had other people have also been hurt there. But yeah, but they see it as a relatively safe, but part of it is that community, I guess. Yeah, I think there's probably a community element. I think when people run marathons, it feels like it's for them more than it is for a community. I think it inspires communities.

7:33But I think when someone decides I'm going to run a marathon, it's usually a gift or a promise to themselves. It's actually, you know, for being such a running skeptic, the New York City Marathon is my absolute favorite day in New York City. I think the most beautiful thing about it for me is, sure, that independent journey of all these people challenging themselves. and you see the diversity of people are doing it. You see people who face disability. You see people who come in from all over the world. But what I think is amazing about it is strangers cheering for strangers, which never happens really in New York.

8:08I mean, strangers cheer for sports, celebrities. Strangers cheer for people like you, Olympians, athletes. But it's rare that there's so much compersion that people are cheering for absolute strangers. Well, let's talk about earnesty then. Yeah. Because it feels like it is really adorable to, yeah, make that promise to yourself. I'm going to toe the line, but I'm going to do it with these thousands of people. And we all have our little plans and our gels and our, and then, yeah, we're going to like accept the community side of it because nobody runs a marathon thinking that they won't have that interaction with the world, whether you're cheering or running, you're going to collide with community.

8:52and it's a really beautiful thing to like accept that love from the world and also to give it and to be like i'm just going to be here cheering and like give support and i'm also if i'm running i'm going to accept support that's like something we don't frequently get in our lives because you don't expect it anywhere else right but you're not walking down the streets in new york expecting someone to like cheer for you getting on time i mean i do alexi but no one does it so i have to run a marathon apparently to get people to do that no i'm kidding has someone cheering ever made your run more possible yeah oh can you hear that when you're running can you hear the cheering or are you just so zoned in yeah sometimes i wonder i sometimes i can't believe that people are cheering because to me now it's expected that like i can do this yeah so i think i take for granted that there are people who are like allowing it to still be amazing even though I have a high bar for myself like finishing a marathon is the minimum right right so it touches me even though um I may not need a cheer to finish the race right it feels a little extra in a way but it has in instances really helped and it does make a difference and that's why when races that have people's name on them it's really cute because someone will be like go bob and go martha and i think where it made the biggest difference for me was when you talked about smiling during running and how yes most people don't so the first race that i did on a competitive start line but non-competitively was the new york city marathon in 2022 and i had had a post olympic this really big depression after the olympics and i tore my hamstring and i'd never had an injury and I had to have a big surgery.

10:41And I didn't tell anyone I had it because it felt really frowned upon to have an injury or a big surgery. And I was supposed to race with the elite runners and I had a contract to do it. And I knew that I was healthy by then. It was like nine months after the surgery, but I couldn't race hard. And I asked the race, should I still run the race? And they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, should I run with the people? And they were like, no, no, no, start with the girls in the front. but the elite pack starts 30 minutes early. So basically I would be running alone because I'm running slower.

11:13And I was like, I don't know if I can do this. It's humiliating to be an Olympian, an elite athlete running the pace of non-elite athlete. And basically what I did was I couldn't run fast. And so I ended up like connecting with the crowd and dancing and wearing glitter. And I had interactions with people where I was like blowing them kisses in earnest and then receiving this love back. And it was a real interaction with the crowd that you don't get when you're running an Olympic time. And it was the first time that I really connected with the people. And it was really powerful. And it was different than the head down laser, I'm just going to get to the finish line as fast as possible type running.

11:56There's a lot of talk in running about personal records, PRs and personal bests. Was your personal best race your best race? Yeah, it was at the Olympics. It was. Yeah, and it was awesome. Because? I'm so grateful. I think this is the thing I'm most grateful for in running. My coach, I trusted him. And so I did what I was told and he peaked me. It's called like when you're peaking is when you are, you're as sharp as you can be. If you imagine as an athlete, you're like a pencil and you can only sharpen a pencil so frequently or it's going to break, right? If you keep sharpening it, it'll just snap, right?

12:33And so you want the timing to be perfect. It's like the optimal point on the curve right before it starts to go down. Right before it goes down. And it doesn't last so long. Like you can't be peaked for nine months of the year. You can be peaked for like a week or a day. But can you be peaked every year or can you only be peaked in a certain age group? Because women sometimes get faster as they get older. Yeah, you can peak and peak again and peak again. It's just, there's like a seasonality to it. So in every season you peak. Yes, that's the goal. and you want to peak at the right time. It's like ovulation or something.

13:04It's like every month you're going to ovulate. This is fun to talk about. Yeah. And you trust a coach to like help bring you there at the right time. And really, this is what a lot of like I think people don't understand is that you never replicate the race before race day. You get the pieces of it. So you build, you want range. You build your really intense endurance and then your speed. And the idea is that on race day, you have no idea how it's going to all come together, but your coach has timed it perfectly and it all does come together and your body will do exactly what your mind wants it to do.

13:37And that happened to me in Rio. And it was such a cool feeling because you feel that there's no resistance and you feel your body is actually carrying you. And it's a really, really special feeling. And that's what I felt. That's amazing. Do you think like your body, how do you, So what's the best metaphor for a body for you? I love hearing you talk about that alignment. I totally know as soon as you said it, I felt it in my body. Like, yeah, there are parts of my life where I just feel like my body is at my body's best. Do you think of the body as a machine? Do you think of the body as a instrument?

14:15Like, how do you think about the body? that's a great question because there's like a there's like a harmony that also has to do with like where your head's at so it can't just be a machine oh i don't know because sometimes i think about it as like a castle and i really like push people to build every brick like quality meaning don't take shortcuts but a castle doesn't really feel yeah so it's not really doesn't really move Yeah, and it doesn't move. It definitely doesn't move. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's human. I'm like, of course you're human. Maybe you're so embodied. Like, I think we live in a world where people are often not embodied.

14:58People are not dancing as much. We're not in our bodies as much as kind of historical generations. I was at a retreat recently. The guy said, you know, you're more like what's out there than what's in here. And he was pointing out to like trees and life, like living organism. than you are to this phone. Yeah, and like a plant, like if we're just talking about the plant, I think a plant's a cool one because it doesn't grow everything at once. And I think like we evolve and develop like one branch and then we grow another branch, then we grow a flower, then we grow, like I don't think everything happens at the same time.

15:34And I think we have an impatience that everything should blossom and bloom and grow and change. You know what I think people are that I think about a lot is I think that we're more verbs than nouns. And maybe that's sort of where. Yeah. Or being. Yeah. And we're changing. Yeah. And we're either going to change consciously if we're like driving that change or we're going to adapt subconsciously no matter what. Because to be alive is to change. And so maybe we're running or athletics comes into play is those are people that are driving their own change. and they're trying to drive it towards something.

16:12And where that's beautiful is you have a goal and you're moving towards something, but where it's dangerous is forcing it is also problematic. And maybe what I'm trying to encourage people to do in any sport or movement is to try to be an agent, like drive your ship toward that change, but also listen to what feels true. When you got to each seasonal peak, did you know it was coming? right before it came? So it's like an orgasm? You know, when it happens? Yeah, yeah. I remember feeling one day that I was like, I feel ease. Like I feel ease in something that feels hard. So it's not like an orgasm.

16:57Well, I was like, what about it? Yeah, compare them. Because in an orgasm, there's like an anticipation. Yeah, I think it's not that dissimilar in a way. it's just that this is such a this is so great because um oh my god I'm just realizing I'm so used to like talking only about athletic stuff yeah and being in a certain like headspace or talking about like non-athletic stuff and you're also my my friend yeah so I feel like we could it's just so funny when those things interact because I'm um I'm feeling like in real time this thing of like I'm a wholesome athlete and I'm like but I'm also just a Lexi and I can talk about orgasms and sports does that feel good or bad how does the body feel it makes me feel i have work to do on myself because i want it no no no it's not bad it's because i want to i'm just one person yeah and so to let everything like a conversation yeah yeah it's like i i think i had a voice in my head that was like you shouldn't talk about orgasms when you're talking about sports because the sports side of you is like this is such a um yeah i think it's kind of like an orgasm to peak because yes, I think you're starting to feel things come together.

18:06But I will say that like when you're peaking, it shouldn't feel out of control. You actually feel like a total ease, control and like clarity and almost like you can watch it happening while it's happening. So it's almost like the opposite at the actual peak. I guess there's an inevitability about it that feels similar. Do you feel sorry to take you there? And yet not take you there, as the case may be. Is there a difference when you're running towards something or running away from something? Yes. What is that difference for you? A little cliffhanger. We'll be right back. And we're live from the living room as Doug eyes up the matchday spread.

18:48He's reaching for the Buffalo wing. Perfect. Hang on, what's this? Oh, he's going for a can of Pepsi too. Incredible. What a finish. Sensational combination. Look at the delight on his face. There's no doubt about it. It just tastes better. Match days deserve Pepsi. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a pack of Pepsi Zero Sugar for today's match. It's poetry in motion. Guys, today's sponsor dumb question is from me. I'm going to take the next minute to tell you a little bit about Smart Girl Dumb Questions and to ask you for your help in continuing to make independent, fact-based, and curious journalism.

19:26No, I'm not going to ask you for money. Here's what I need. I would love you to tell 10 of your friends about the show or 100. I don't know. Blast that reunion group that you muted and definitely tell your mom and tell your mom to tell her friends too. Even if you don't like the show and you're just like hate watching it or listening to it, tell 10 of your friends to hate watch it too. Numbers are numbers, people.

19:48Is there a difference when you're running towards something or running away from something? Yes. What is that difference for you? I think when people are running away from something, they're running fueled by fear, which is a very powerful fuel. Like you can want to run away from your past, some experience, your body. People want to run out of their body and be skinnier, you know? And that will take you far, but it has its limits. And I think that running towards something, especially when you're running toward a feeling or a set of values or curiosity, it is so much more buoyant. And I think where the difference is, is that if you're running towards something, it kind of feels like you have a crush on something and there's an expansive feeling.

20:39And there is like a bounciness that I think makes you more durable. And I think when you're running away from something, you're tight and you're fragile. And I think you're more vulnerable. And so you might get to the same result, but you might not. What in your life have you been kind of running toward or running away from? Can you share that? Yeah, I think in retrospect, I was running away from to get to the Olympics because, you know I lost my mom young and she took her own life so it was like I would I did not want to be unhappy and I thought that to be an Olympian was to like forever be okay because it's the it is you can't take it away from someone and I wanted something that could not be taken away and I had a great time like training for it but I think there was a bit of like need and fear and then after the Olympics when I realized it's not gonna memorialize your eternal happiness I crashed and now I feel like I'm running toward growth and abundance and I don't know where that's gonna lead.

21:55I want to get to where you're running toward because you've been doing so many amazing projects and really fascinating work and I want to hear what it's like to have that kind of beginner's mindset because when we met you had a new project in mind and including the podcast, Mentor Buffet, your great podcast. And you're really excited. You're like kind of electric about all of your ideas and business and beyond. But before that, I just want to do a little bit on running. Because can you just give us like the two-minute rundown on perfect running form? I do go to Mile High Run Club. Oh, fun. You know that club?

22:27Yeah, yeah. And they're always like, lean forward, like shoulders back and lean forward when you run. Is this correct? What is the body formulation? Yeah, sometimes leaning forward works, but I would say if I were to give anyone like the simplest cues to running, we're so we're actually so forward in our lives, right, with like our screens and everything that I would try to cue someone to even though it might feel a little odd to keep their chin to just try to tuck your chin a bit, meaning almost you're trying to give yourself a double chin. and it doesn't mean you will it means that you're just trying to cue yourself to not have your neck be so forward because it will help like align you so I think if I were to give people two cues it would be just occasionally check that your chin isn't completely jetting out yeah and then I would just give people the cue of having their their their toes up actually because um a lot of people I run on my toes it's fine to run on your toes and I'm saying like people run on their toes they They run on their heels.

23:33I'm more saying like every step, give yourself a mental cue of lifting your toes. To be in the air. To be in the air. And some of these things are not so literal as much as like this is what to keep in mind. And it will prevent you from like overstriding, which hurts, injures a lot of people. So I think keeping your toes up. Yeah, I think those are two good cues. So overstriding is? over striding is um like reaching too far for your rest of your body's ability to keep up and it just ends up uh it's like your body trying to take a shortcut to get somewhere but the shortcut will cause something in the rest of your body and is there such a thing as under striding honestly no you just might not go as fast if you're taking the tiny little steps You'll just be a really cute runner if you understride.

24:28You'll be like a little, like a child when they're like running on their little tip. Yeah. That's sweet. Okay. Yeah, it's really sweet. I feel maybe I'm an understrider, cute runner. The understrider should be the name of your run club. So I was going to ask you about this, like this run clubs are the new dating app. That's what I've heard. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think of that? Do you think running is a good way to meet people romantically? I think it probably is, but I would feel so weird if I went to a running club and I was just hoping to like have camaraderie and a workout. And then I... And somebody else was, you were trying to peak in your running and the other person was trying to peak in your orgasm.

25:05Trying to peak in your orgasm. Yeah, exactly. That would not be good. So earlier you talked about how kind of the beauty of meeting people when you are not looking for anything. Like joining a run club to date is potentially dangerous to the run club and the person looking to date. I think if you happen to fall in love at a run club, that's awesome. but to go hoping to find someone and to have a goal like that I think is not the best energy to have and the reason is because and I've I've like said this before but I learned this term from Jay Duplass which is parallel play and he says that people have the best interactions when they're like playing together so like running is a form of playing walking down the street is playing all this stuff and I think that run clubs are an opportunity to parallel play with people so you're doing a workout you're with them and it's it fosters the best conversations if the conversation leads to a date that's what it's leading to but to start with like i'm here to find a person yeah feels like you're looking again for a goal over yeah just just finding it okay at what speed can you talk while running and at what speed should you stop talking while running yeah it's personal for everyone, but I'll give people a way to think about their running that might help them rather than think about paces.

26:25If you're going for an easy run, try to go chit chat pace. This is what my Olympic coach who was an Olympian used to say, which means full conversation. Like we could have this conversation while running. Okay. That's most of your runs. Let's give our numbers for that because for me, that's probably five to six. What is it for you or five per K? Oh, you're in K? No, I'm in miles. Oh, five. Like for having this whole conversation while running, six. Wait, but you're talking about how many miles? No, six miles per hour. Oh, you're talking about a treadmill pace? I'm talking about pace. But I don't know what miles per hour I run.

27:02We don't know what miles per hour you run? No. Wait, how do you know that? Because I only run on treadmills, basically. Oh, well, here's the thing. Especially after the ACL tear. Okay. Okay, so chit-chat pace. Go back to your thing. I'm fucking you off. It would be like eight. I don't know. I run on a treadmill so rarely. It's funny. I think about running as miles per hour and you think of it as how many hours it took you to run 26.2 miles. I think about how many minutes per mile, which is what most people will think about it. So for me, it's a 10 minute mile, I guess I would say. Yeah. Yeah. I'm only as your friend.

27:38Nobody has to know about this. I'm just telling you, if you ever say that again, people know that you're just a treadmill runner which is amazing but they won't they might not invite you to their run club and then i won't meet anyone forever single yeah so you really you didn't need to have that conversation earlier this is really the root of what's going on with you is that you're just introducing yourself wrong okay so chit chat pace is full conversation okay say how many minutes for you what minute mile it would be like set between seven and eight thirty pace for me okay really like feels pretty good can have full conversation okay so that's like 10 ish for me okay perfect perfect perfect 10 to 12 yeah and then chat pace is like you can get in words like I could be like what do you want for lunch and you'd be like I don't know like pizza what about you but you wouldn't be like oh I went to this restaurant last week like that's chit-chatting right okay chat pace less conversation yes and for me that's like maybe 6 30 to 7 minute pace that's probably like an 8 minute pace.

28:40I'm doing reverse math. Maybe a nine minute pace. I don't know. That's great. Okay. I feel like whatever I said, you're going to be like, it's great. If I were like a 23 minute pace, you'd be like, that's excellent, Naima. That's because that's where you are. I know. I'm going to always meet you where you are. I know. You're the best like that. Okay. And I think those are the two. I mean, you can go slower, you can go faster, but that's like, that's like for people doing most of their running, they don't, that's the range they're, they're going to be in. And I'm trying to share this because the numbers will change.

29:09But the feeling should be something that you're familiar with. So as you get in better shape, your chit-chat pace is going to get faster. We talked about this right before because we talked about peeing when you run. It happens to people. It happens to women, especially after they've had kids. They talk about this happening more. What's going on? My friends who have had kids have a lot of problems, I think, with that because their pelvic floor is so weak. Right. Right. And like everything has to like rebuild. I pee in my pants during races because it doesn't make any sense to hold it in. And I'm drinking a lot of water and it just like flies off and evaporates.

29:50Do you wear a special underwear for that or no? No. Yeah. This is like sweat wicking. I mean, this is water wicking fabric. It doesn't bother me at all. And I don't want to waste energy holding pee in or like think about it. If I'm racing, if I'm running on a trail, I'll pee in the woods. I love this. This is what comes back to my sense of you as somebody who's extremely embodied and just like lives naturally according to what's happening, what you're feeling. And yeah, I think of you as like just having this very clear compass. Yeah. And, and it's like, um, and there's like no shame in having to pee and then just navigating, like, what's the like most reasonable thing I can do here that isn't illegal.