"Graydon Carter"

27:14And I saw this clip, either again on TikTok or Instagram or something, and he said... We can take over your house in two minutes. Yeah. You wouldn't get off the couch. Yeah, exactly. He said, nobody wants to read anymore. That's not true. Period. and he goes everybody's getting their information from obviously TikTok or Instagram because nobody wants to sit down and read articles or magazines or books or anything and that said people know that people of influence know that so they'll just speak to these kids or these people about what it is they should know and that's how they get their information out a counter argument to that would be the fact is the New York Times has never been more successful it's never been larger You look at a magazine like, say, The Atlantic, The Atlantic is exponentially larger and more influential than it was, say, 15 years ago.

28:05But that's a certain demographic, I think. It is a certain demographic. By the same token, most people watch TV with the... Even most people watch TV with the Chiron, you know, whatever the professional show people call that. Subtitles. Subtitles. And so young people, I think it's harder and harder, and I have a feeling that most of us, if we were growing up with TikTok, that we would have read less than... But also, you know, I have five kids, and I know that some of them didn't read that much when they were in their teens, but they're all huge readers now. They're all writers, and so they're all huge readers.

28:44You just have to wait a bit, and it'll come around. Yeah, that's true. Sean and Jason, what are you guys waiting for? I always say to these guys... You know, I've got a boring story I won't bore you with about why I'm not a great reader, but I will tell you that... Does it have to do with you don't know how to read? It's top to bottom, left to right. There's now you can, every article online is now you can listen to it. Right, that's what I'm saying. And it is something that's helped both of my girls where, you know, they have these large reading assignments for school. And now all those books are audio books as well.

29:27And so one of the teachers suggested, and I thought it was a great idea, get them the audio book so they can listen to it as they read it. I agree. And that's helpful. And you get some momentum going. You get engaged in the story. And now maybe you don't need that crutch for chapters 5 through 10. You can actually just read the book. And so I do, that's helpful. That's somewhat of a phenomenon where, like you say, the New York Times, Graydon, I would imagine their online business is larger than their print business. I think it's nine-tenths of it. But still, they're reading it online. But they're still reading it.

30:03I will say that, though, and I do bang this drum quite often, but there is a certain reading it. For me, reading it at the end of the day, I find to be such an extreme luxury. And it's very calming because we do live in a digital world. I'm looking at my screen all day, I'm looking at my computer, at my thing, whatever. And to have that moment for 45 minutes every night to read, I do find that it is so calming in this sort of chaotic world in which we live, if nothing else, apart from the fact that it's interesting and you can be, you know, all the other great things about reading. But in that way, and I would, especially as we get older, I'm not speaking to you, Greg, I'm speaking to Sean and Jason.

30:43Because I am older. You need to calm down. You need to calm down, both of you. Yeah, no, I read a lot. I still read a lot online and stuff. What do you attribute, Graydon, the, not the demise, but the way that magazines have not, you know, you say like the New York Times, for example, never been more profitable, yet it is now intense online now. Why did the same not translate for the periodicals? I mean, the financial crash in 2008 was an issue because the first thing that people could take off their accounts were advertising because then you don't have to fire anybody. So the advertising started disappearing.

31:30And then even in New York City, there used to be a newsstand at every major intersection, sometimes one across the street from each other. There was a newsstand in every office building. Now when you see a newsstand on the street, it's often a movie set thing because they're gone. And in office buildings, wherever there was a newsstand, it's usually they're selling gum and flip-flops and lotto tickets. So just the fact that you used to be able to see magazines everywhere you went. You know, in Los Angeles, those things in Hollywood, with the long walls of magazines. I love those. Anyway, they're gone.

32:09And I think a lot of magazines companies were late to transfer the way a magazine looks to an electronic version. And the thing about airmail is airmail was put together by magazine people. And we didn't have to work with a legacy brand and then transfer it to the internet or digital. We started it from that. And so I think that made a difference there. And, you know, I read, you know, 20 magazines a month, but I read them all on my iPad. Right. Yeah, but before you go too far past airmail, you know, I just love what you, it's so, and this is probably not the right term, but there's nothing intimidating about the way it comes at you at its initial point in that it's an email.

33:02And there's just like, here's, it's basically like looking at the table of contents page. Are you talking about the subscription to Vanity Fair? No, to airmail. No, to airmail. Oh, yeah, sorry. To Graydon's new thing is this thing called airmail. So you get this email, and here's like five stories that you can click on that then if you decide to click, then it expands into the story. So there's just like, you don't have to buy a whole magazine, or you don't have to go to a magazine's website or anything, and have to deal with all the advertising and the big pictures and all that. But it's just, here's some ideas, some stories.

33:34If it's interesting to you, click on it. If not, go to the next email. Like, so it's not in your face. The medicine goes down easy and they happen to be incredible stories. So I don't know. I just think you tacked to a format that speaks to the current reader's appetite as far as the attention they have to get. And there's a tonal shift too, right, JB? I mean, there's a tonal shift in it from Vanity Fair to airmail. There's no selling element to it that I think people have grown sort of an allergy to. And you're very current on that, which is not surprising coming from somebody like you. Well, we wanted to look beautiful because I think design means is everything these days.

34:17And look at the amount of work that goes into an iPhone, say. So, you know, as I said, I'd written thank you notes to all my advertisers at Vanity Fair. And so I wanted those advertisers in airmail. I didn't want advertising for, I don't know, foot fungus or Geico insurance ads. I wanted much better to have Hermes and Dior and Ralph Lauren. So all the advertisers, once I got Hermes, all the other advertisers felt safe coming in. But it's put out by people from Time Magazine, when I worked there, Spy Magazine, and Vanity Fair. That's the core group. And then there's about eight young people who are in their mid-20s and they form the core in the future.

35:04Yeah. Well, we'd be remiss if we didn't mention our mutual friend, the great Linda Wells, whom I adore. Me too. Yeah, whom I absolutely adore and have known for many years. And she's a big part of Airmail. I'm not telling you, I'm telling our listener, our single listener. But I will say that, you know, when you were at Vanity Fair, there was a real balance between covering high society profiles, if you will, celebrity and investigative journalism. I remember there's a great article that I've referenced many times and I had people read, which was about the Sultan of Brunei's brother. Love that story.

35:42That story is an incredible story. Still holds up. It's incredible. It's hilarious and it's right on point. And it's scathing and yet very fair. So you do that at Vanity Fair. And then now that you're at Airmail, how would you define, what is your relationship? Well, I was going to say, what's your relationship with celebrity culture? Before I say that, what was, because you were at the forefront of defining celebrity and covering celebrity culture back at Vanity Fair, and you still are at Airmail in a way, did you, when you were in that position, what kind of incoming calls did you get from people, from publicists and celebrities themselves who wanted you to either amend something that you wrote about them, and I know you already mentioned this about Mr.

36:31Tisch, but what celebrities did you get? Did you ever get a call from that Donald Trump pseudonym? Oh, John Barron. John Barron. No, but I would get calls from Trump. And once they invented Twitter, he went to town on me. He would call me a sloppy. I was a loser. The Waverly Inn was a failing restaurant. The Oscar party wasn't hot. The magazine was terrible. But I would take any phone call. But most of the, doing the covers was actually the least favorite part of the job. But the fact is movie, you know, show people like you are more attractive than the rest of us. So having a very attractive person on the cover who happened to be talented, was a great way of getting the attention of the reader so that they'd pick it up and they wouldn't be embarrassed putting it on their coffee table.

37:23But once you got that, that was sort of like the wrapping and then the magazine itself was sort of the gift in the box. But in most of the calls, and we did get a lot of complaints, but they were routed through the office of the person of the people who booked the covers. So I would get occasional complaints. Most of the complaints often would come from staff members And I remember Christopher Hitchens did a pretty rough story on Mother Teresa. And he accused her of, like, cozying up to dictators and that sort of thing for money. It came out of the blue, and it was wild. And Rinaldo Herrera, who's the husband of Carolina Herrera, who was on the staff, and he came, he was a staunch Catholic, and he came into the office, stormed into the office, and said, Greg, you've gone too far this time.

38:12I said, what do you mean? He said, Mother Teresa? He says, I'm cancelling my subscription. I said, you can't cancel your subscription. You get it for free.

38:21But at Spy Magazine, once we did a story on the 10 most litigious New Yorkers. And Gore Vidal was on that list. And we were listed in the phone book. And he called me up. And he said, I really object to this. I'd never met him before. I really object to this. and if you don't correct that, I'll sue you. And I said, wait a minute, if we don't correct that you're one of the most litigious New Yorkers, you're going to sue us. He said, yes. And I said, don't you get the irony in his saying that he just hung up?

39:04That's great. That's so good. We'll be right back.

39:12and back to the show. Your new book, Graydon, is When the Going Was Good, which is out now. And talk a little bit about that. First of all, what a great title. You're clearly not talking about yourself because things continue to have a nice arc forward. You're talking about a cultural shift, yeah. Is that sort of, talk a little bit about the book. No, I think that the, you know, if you look back and the 80s, the 90s, and the aughts, I mean, the 80s and 90s in particular, it was a great time in America. It was very aspirational. The middle class was doing well. We still had two World Trade Center towers.

39:57You could get on an airplane without stripping down. There was no cell phones or social media. And it was just a much more natural, organic time. I mean, my wife and I happen to love watching Frasier before we go to bed because they're like perfectly written plays, and nobody has a cell phone, and there's just something, you know, I mean, the same thing with Will and Grace or Friends or, I'm trying to think what else, Seinfeld, say. And it was just a great time. And so the 80s, 90s, and aughts, with the exception of, you know, obviously 9-11 and everything that came after that, But we're a great time for television.

40:39We're a great time for movies. And I think television has overtaken movies now in terms of driving the culture. Magazines do not drive the culture like they used to. It's obviously things like Instagram and television in a big way. So do you think we'll ever get back to what you're describing? No. Ever? Or a version of it? A version of it, perhaps. I think young people will come to love magazines the way they love vinyl, but they'll be specialty magazines. They won't have a million circulation and they will be largely visual. You know, you go to like Casa Magazines on 8th Avenue over here. Yeah.

41:17And there's a ton of these big, expensive, $20, perfect bound, thick paper magazines. And they get scooped up by young people, not by people over 30. There's one of those great, There are about four, every corner from West Broadway to Sixth Avenue, there are three or four bodegas on every corner. There's that one at the corner of Sullivan and Prince that still has a really robust magazine section. You know the one I'm talking about? I know exactly where you're talking about. I've been living half a block from it for the last sort of six months, and it's been phenomenal. And I've gone in there, I found myself going in there from time to time and perusing magazines again, and I feel like I'm stepping back in time.

41:59It does feel that way. It'll come back, I think. What do you think is the, you know, we talk often about, and we've referenced it here today, the effect of social media has had on our culture, which to me, in large part, I think, has been quite a negative effect. What do you think the future is for things like social media and going forward? Do you think there will be a whiplash or a backlash, rather? I was going to say, I think I'm hoping that because... I wasn't asking you. No, no, but I want Greg to say... No, it's funny because you brought up social media because I think we've so overshared our lives in such a massive way and billions of people.

42:45Now we know everything about everybody always that I think, if I'm guessing correctly, we will go the opposite way in 5, 10, 20 years, whatever it is, I don't know, where people will be like, wait, we've all overshared. I'm going to get off it. I think it's cooler to hang out without it. I think it was a long way away, but I think that's what's going to happen. Great, what do you think? 100%. I think, yeah, I totally agree with Sean that it is, again, it's a correction. And so the correction, now you share everything, pictures of your children, pictures of your children's birthday, them having cake on their nose and all the rest of it.

43:18I have five kids. None of them have a social media presence and no tattoos either. So that's a major accomplishment. But I don't have any social media presence. and I think, and I know this sounds strange for somebody who's just written a memoir, but I'm a very private person. And I think a private life will have greater currency in maybe three to five years than it does now. And it'll be much cooler for young people than having a social media presence. Greater currency, and it gives you more cachet, if you will. Much more cachet. There's a mystery. Right, right, right. Well, it's so great, and kind of on this cultural, transition period we find ourselves in, hopefully, and you being the head of a major media effort.

44:11Talk to us about your process with you and your team when you decide what stories it is you're going to go forward with there on airmail. Is there any agenda such a pejorative? But do you consider the effect and the move that you guys can make for people as you try to encourage them towards a better, healthier, you know, cultural position? Or is it just stories of interest to you guys personally? I mean, I put the next issue together on a Sunday morning, and it's my favorite process of the week. But by and large, we look for stories that have not appeared in the American papers. It's sort of intended as the weekend edition of a non-existent international newspaper like the old International Herald Tribune.

45:05And the fact is there's so much to celebrate about life. It's not all about Donald Trump. It's hard to avoid Donald Trump. I mean, it's certainly worth the effort to avoid him, but it's almost impossible. And so he winds up in there. But it was designed as a... We started it during the first Trump administration. and I was living in France and it was designed as a sort of not the same, like every single newsletter you get in America is, you know, it's all basic Boston to Washington to sell a corridor news. And we have very little of that. There's enough of that to go around. So ours is very international.

45:41Stories have to be just interesting and things that reflect changes in the culture, hopefully for the better, not always. and just sort of spirited writing, you know, that could be funny, but informative. And, you know, some new, fresh voices. And it's just something that you can wake up Saturday morning and read it without completely hanging your head in despair over the news. I took the New York Times alerts off my phone. Yeah. Every 45 seconds is like the end of the world. I know, same here. And I've been doing my best to try to avoid it. Totally, same. You've been a, for lack of a better word, a tastemaker for decades.

46:25It's just simply true. What cultural trends, are there any now that you miss most? And what cultural trends do you think are wildly overrated now? Well, social media, as I think Sean points out, that it will have a swing back because not sharing everything will be a value both in your life and your personality and your interactions with others. I think kindness would be a wonderful addition back in the world because I think the sort of wanton cruelty you see coming out of Washington is a... It sort of reflects badly in us even though most of us are not like that. I don't think it's going to get better soon, but I think it will get better.

47:10I think so too. He's a very strange man. I've known him for 40 years. He's both loved me and hated me. And he reads young. He reads like a young 78, whereas Biden read like an old 81. I know. You've got to give him that credit. It's hard not to. Graydon, at the great risk of offending you. Go ahead. Oh, boy. Oh, no. This is his favorite. Can you please walk me through the genesis of your incredible and impressive hair? Oh, my God. We'll take a good look at it because it's disappearing as we speak. No, no. No, no. What it is is it's one of my favorite things about you. It always has been. To the extent you're comfortable, can you please walk us through how it started and what the process is to make?

48:07Is there a pick involved? Yeah, because put a baton in your hand, you can conduct the New York film. I just fucking love it so much. No, I had this hair, it's the same hair I have on the cover of my book when I was 30. And it's sort of, you know, in the old days, when I didn't have much money, you'd get it all cut off and you'd wait three months and it would grow back. And now I get it cut every month or so. And it's just, but it's gone gray. And if I'm out in Los Angeles and I go and there's a lot of people my age in the room, I'm the only man with gray hair, which I find really amazing. How is that possible?

48:43It has something to do with the water out here, I think. It must. The styling of it is just, I just love it. The three of us have gray hair. Because it's just a perfect juxtaposition between this incredible place of, oh, influence and success and sophistication that you hold. And it's sort of offset. I mean, it's like Einstein, you know? Like Einstein was like the greatest brain ever, yet he counterbalanced it. He did have great hair. Well, Pete Davidson once said, Pete Davidson told a friend of my daughter, he said, your dad, he looks like, and with that hair, he looks like he should be on money.

49:20Which I think is the highest compliment anybody's ever paid. Well, it's sort of, you know, there's a confidence to it, which is intoxicating, I must admit. That's code for what a fool who would do that. No, not at all. No, no, no, no, no. Anybody who says how brave of you to wear that or something like that. No, the opposite, the opposite. Well, great. Now, I'll leave you with this. And again, we pointed out all the great things. Spy Magazine, Vanity Fair, Air Mail, and now your book, When the Going Was Good. After decades. And don't forget the Waverly Inn. And the Waverly Inn. And the Waverly Inn, which, sorry, the Waverly Inn, which is, I must admit I haven't been to in a long time, but I love the Waverly Inn.

50:02You should be, and you can make a reservation through my email. Is that true? Yeah, do all the seating. Yeah, do the seating every night. We'll treat you well. No. Fantastic. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God, what a dream. I'm coming back. I mean, don't put it on your website or anything like that. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, believe me, I'm going to guard it with my life. I will tell you, and this probably won't be much of a compliment because I'm probably one in a long line, but I just finished doing this show, and it's about an incredibly beautiful, hip restaurant on the Lower East Side. Called Black Rabbit.

50:40Shots of inside of Waverly Inn was up on our production designer's board. Oh, sweet. And we basically modeled the aesthetic in there. It's just so incredibly beautiful. And built down in Atlanta. No, actually, we shot it in New York. We built an entire restaurant at Steiner. Oh, my God. You know what would be great to do? Let's do something like, now that we have Graded here, let's do a thing where we get Thoreau banned from the Waverly Inn forever. You know what I mean? Don't let him know. Don't see Justin Thoreau anymore. You're always busy, you're full. Yeah, no, Con Ed has shut us down, yes.

51:14But when we opened it, we wouldn't take reservations from the 203 area code because that's Greenwich and that's where all the hedge fund guys were. That's so good. So they'd make a reservation. we'd say, oh, sorry, you know, Con Ed. Listen, Graydon, you're speaking our language. I have said many times, nobody is more responsible for the destruction of this planet than, you know, sort of private equity guys. 100%. And bankers. They have absolutely... Except for Dandies. Except for Dandies, who is one of the all-time great guys. One of the all-time great guys. Double D. But I want to ask you this.

51:50As a sort of parting shot, if you will, what would you like your... God, this is a tough one to answer, I'm sure. What would you like your legacy to be, if you've even thought in those terms? As a Canadian, you probably never have. No, I mean, first of all, I'm really proud of being a Canadian, and especially now, I'm sure you feel the same way. I like Mark Carney. I think that you just want to leave... If you got to a beach and it's filled with candy wrappers, my inclination would be, and I'm sure for you guys as well, to sort of clean up the candy wrappers and try to leave something in better shape than when you got there.

52:27And in a large part, we do that through our children. And it's my kids. I'm very proud of them. And they're truly good humans and funny and well-read. And that's because that's your legacy because they're going to go on after you're turned to dust and all the rest of it. And leave a modest body of decent work behind you. What a great answer. Well, listen, Graydon, thank you so much for joining us today. Such an honor. I mean, I'm really good. I don't know. The honor is ours. Thank you. Yeah, we've been such fans, and we've spoken about you before. The three of us have, and we've been just a fan of everything you've done from Spied Suit to Vanity Fair to Airmail.

53:14And now your book, When the Going Was Good, is out now for all our listener. All our listener. All our listener. Tell him to get there quickly then. Or her, or her, or them, or them. I encourage him or her or them or whoever it is to go out and get it today. Graydon, we wish you nothing but continued success and thank you so much. Thank you, Graydon. Thank you so much, guys. Yeah, nice to meet you, Graydon. Okay, pleasure. Thank you, Paul. Bye. Bye, buddy. Nice guest, Willie. That is sad. Now, you know, again, every time we have somebody that is not one of these big, fancy A-list celebs whom we love.

53:55I just love talking to other folks. Well, I mean, think about it. And it is true. Not only, and Jay, you said it, I said it, Sean. You said a version of it that he was a tastemaker, if only because he was on the front lines of reporting what was happening culturally, whether it was a film or television or art or media, et cetera. And because of that position, he ends up, in a lot of ways, steering culture because of what he decides to report on. Right, right. That's what I'm saying about him. And Lorne Michaels is still doing it. Like, who's hosting Saturday Night Live and who's a musical guest?

54:32We'll tell you who's the top of the zeitgeist. He and Lorne are still doing it. And again, I should be pointing out that these are Canadians, and I think that there's something to that. Fresh eyes. Well, Canadians, we just inhabit just a slightly higher place in the space. You're breaking up a little bit. Are you going over a canyon? No, it seems like we're losing you. No, I've got full bars. Shut off this mic. You turn off this mic. Well, you know what? There is this, and I've spoken about this before. As Canadians, we grew up, we are so culturally close and geographically close. So we are kind of observers of American culture in that way and very close.

55:12Wait, what do you think that is now though? If it's not Vanity Fair, maybe it still is Vanity Fair that is the quote tastemaker. Like where do people look? Because it seems so fragmented now. Yeah, you're right. Well, you know what? It's much more, I think that it's been divided into these different pieces. Vanity Fair was much more of a catch-all back at the time. Right, right. That inhabited a big space. I don't know if there's anything that inhabits that big. Unless it's this airmail, which I didn't know. I think a lot of podcasts do. Oh yeah, that's true. Maybe Smartless, maybe the Smartless podcast.

55:40You know, I haven't heard that, but I did hear about it, and I hear it's not great. The smart one, one of the things, it's not great. It's a little overrated is what I'm hearing. Very overrated, and these guys, they swear too much. They interrupt people, but you know what? They do have really down pat. Bye! Reference our own bye as the bye. Bye all night, bye! You mean how they say goodbye at the end of each episode. Bye! Meta much, meta much. Smart. Nice.

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