"John Lithgow"

27:57about some hapless community theater actor whom everybody kept coming to to play. the roles have always been a surprise to me right and it's a testament to your talent that that you're able to craft your your your take on the character in such a way where you're able to play it really well you know it's like it becomes you're like okay so this is the opportunity i'm being given uh this this month or this year and so i better figure out a way to play it well because it's the only part that's coming down the pike yeah i mean it's sort of an overly humble Kind of. And I'm game. I guess I'm best known for being ready, willing, and able.

28:35Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's no small thing, by the way. And it's very cockeyed. I just saw the premiere of a film I did with Geoffrey Rush last year called The Rule of Jenny Penn, which I urge you to look up. It's about to be released in a very narrow release because it's a very bold and crazy film, a psychological suspense thriller. Okay. In which I play by far the most outrageous character I've played since Dr. Lizardo. And he is the monster in a horror movie. He really is. He's a crazy guy who's out to torment Jeffrey Rush in a senior care facility in New Zealand. I mean, this is a crazy film and it is great.

29:21I read that script, you know, this wonderful young director in New Zealand named James Ashcroft, he said, I've got to have you play this part. And I was terrified of doing this. I'm like, God. But I reminded myself, it's the things that you're afraid of that... But what is that thing that you do? What is that moment of fear when you were able to turn, when you read it, and he says, it has to be you, and you look at it and you say, oh, I don't know. I don't know what this is. I don't know if I can do it. I don't know if I'm... Maybe I'll fail to... What is the moment? What is the thing that the voice that says, take the jump off the cliff?

29:59I think it usually comes from a conversation or a Zoom call with the filmmaker. If there's a matter of trust, you do it. And I've been wrong before, God knows. We've all been wrong before. But this, like, I read Jenny Penn, and I thought, this is horrific. Who in the world is going to want to see this? And I spoke to this guy, James Ashcroft, for an hour and a half, and he just was so persuasive. I just saw so far beyond my first reaction to the script. It's just a matter of being wide open to trusting somebody and being ready to take a chance because God knows there are plenty of times when it doesn't work out.

30:40But you've got to be bold. Yeah. Does the criteria change for you now at this stage? Like I notice as I'm getting older, my decision to, in terms of working, this again goes to kind of to everybody. Your mindset changes. the things that are important to you change? Is that true or no? Is there sort of a guiding light for you? Is it, I want to do something that challenges me or I want to do something that's fun or I want to do something that fits my schedule or does that shift? I mean, you know what I mean? What is the criteria? I just think there's so many factors in every case and it always surprises you one way or another.

31:16It's basically, is this going to be good? Is this going to be fun? Are people going to want to see this? and am I working, is it good writing with good people? I always say the only hard acting is bad writing. Yeah. Or shitty people, you know, having to like share 12 hours a day with a bunch of jerks is not fun. And you just try to steer clear of that. Sometimes you can't avoid it. Sometimes you take things for the wrong reasons and you pay for it. Yeah. How do you factor in, where does family, friends, location, all that stuff, how does that all factor in? Tell us a little bit about your, I don't know anything about your personal life.

31:59Tell me all the things you don't want to say. So sweet of you to ask, Jason. That's a huge factor. I've been married 43 years to my wife, Mary, who's a UCLA professor of history, economic and business history. We are an unlikely couple. You know, God never meant professors and actors to get married because our lives are so different. She is constantly having to adapt to these crazy right-angle turns I keep taking. I mean, just think, being asked to play Dumbledore is contemplating literally years in England. Yeah, I know. And that just disrupts everything. Right. We have two kids. I have a third by my first marriage, and I have three grandkids with another on the way.

32:51And, you know, going to England, how are we going to go back and forth? Their lives are very installed here. Yeah. Family is hugely important to me, and we are quite exclusive. You know, we're a kind of quiet little family, and we get wrenched all over the place. So for a long time, when I was asked to do a play in New York, my first reaction was, where are we going to live? Because I was so used to house sits and sublets and apartment hotels. We finally just splurged and bought a beautiful New York apartment. So we find, so it, just so I won't have that reaction. Sure, right, right. I can think of living a wonderful life in New York when I'm doing a New York play.

33:39And I never want to stop doing that. But by the way, Sean, I have to ask you, are you going to play Oscar Levant again? Because I missed it. And at the Barbican this summer in London. I will see you. I will see you. Oh, good. I will be there. That'd be great. I will be there in the first weeks of Dumbledore. Oh, that's great. And I'm doing a play in the West End that you will be able to see. I did it at the Royal Court in the fall, and it's moving to the West End in April. What's it called? It's called Giant, a play about Roald Dahl. in which play I play here. Oh, wow. Great. Which was a smash hit at the Little Royal Court Theater.

34:16But I will finally be able to see... That'd be great. You will not be disappointed. It's just so cool. No, because I saw little clips of it and heard so many friends rave about it. I was so upset I had missed it. It's on my list of those things that I kick myself. Well, that's very nice of you. I appreciate that. Yeah, come see. We'll have dinner or whatever. Oh. He won a Tony for it. Of course. We mentioned it earlier. He won a Tony, and which gets Sean don't be watching him act embarrassed is so embarrassing because he thinks he's good and then he tries to play embarrassment and then he tries to play it's so terrible but John you I mentioned you won you won a Tony your first time your first outing on Broadway which was for what what was it for it was for The Changing Room an English oh The Changing Room sorry by David Story which incidentally was first produced at the Royal Court Theatre where we did this play, Giant.

35:11So this was full of coming back. That's wild. That's cool. Full circle. But I mean, imagine coming out and your first production on Broadway, you win a Tony. You're sort of, you're shot out of a cannon, as it were. You must think like, okay, it's like, it would be like to try to, for Tracy, it'd be like winning the Super Bowl your first year in the NFL. Right. Just thinking, I'm going to win a Super Bowl every year. Right. Right. Was there a little bit of that? Well, it was astonishing. I mean, The Changing Room, it was a play that we did. It was the American premiere of this extraordinary play about an English North of England rugby team.

35:47It takes place in their changing room. It's sort of super real. I'll read for that. Yeah, it's a great thing that we did at the Long Wharf Theater in New Haven. And it got a lot of national press and moved to Broadway. Until then, I had done rep both for my dad and I had actually started directing just because nobody would hire me as an actor. I was actually doing just fine as a director. I'd been hired to be the artistic director of Baltimore Center Stage, and I had accepted. Cool. What else? I've got to work. Wow. And I pulled out after two weeks when I was finally offered to be a member of the resident company at Long Wharf.

36:34The second show was Changing Room, and it was brought to Broadway. And two weeks later, I won a Tony. How about that? That's crazy. I didn't sleep for about two months. I was so excited. Yeah, that's really cool. That's amazing. It's very hard to get into that inner circle. I mean, in theater in particular in New York, because nobody thinks of you as a successful actor until you're a successful actor. Right. Well, speaking about that, having done it so long and at such a high level, do you find yourself still teaching yourself new tricks? Are you, you work with that incredible cast like you just did in Conclave?

37:14I imagine it's impossible for you not to absorb something. Are you still putting little pieces on your talent? Does it still change? I feel like there's nothing I haven't done yet. I mean, Third Rock itself was like flying in all directions for six years. It hasn't stopped me from the terrible insecurity of what do people think of me in the first couple of weeks of rehearsal. That helped us concentrate, though. You know, to be honest, even doing live in front of a studio audience, I was nervous as hell that night. Were you? I don't know whether you guys had that experience. Yeah, but for Tracy, those were, I know we said it already, but Jimmy Kimmel and Norman Lear put together on ABC these recreations of old sitcoms and we did them live.

38:08Yeah. It's the one thing all four of us have in common. That's true. I always brag to people that I've worked with Jason and Will. But I would imagine, though, that, you know, you work across someone like, you know, Ray Fiennes. And, like, how can you – how do you avoid not being distracted by watching somebody with that kind of talent? And try to see what they're doing and maybe try it on a little bit. Like, do you find yourself at all being influenced by folks that you're working with? I mean, in the case of Rafe, it was just extraordinary, the interaction. Yeah. I worked, listen, over the last two years, I've done roles with Rafe Fiennes, Olivia Colman, and Jeffrey Rush.

39:01Good Lord. And in big parts, big intense scenes. You get to see what they do. In each case, they give you so much. It's all, it's, no, no performance is created by one person. It's, there's a minimum of two. Right. Because it's all about the interaction and playing off each other. And, and I just feel, I mean, thank goodness when I act with someone, they're pretty familiar with me and I'm, I tend to be familiar with them. And if I'm not, I make myself friends with them. I just go right ahead and say, come on, you guys, let's connect. Let's get to know each other. You have to do that. we'll be right back

39:47and back to the show what's the role that people stop you for the most when you're walking down the street when you're on an airplane and you drop your license what is the thing that people say to you I would say probably Third Rock, Dexter and Winston Churchill but it tends to be the thing that is most current I mean an awful lot of things Well, get ready because Dumbledore and the Harry Potter series, it's going to be massive. You know, this is already, can you believe this has already started? And the deal was only set like 48 hours ago. And in airports two weeks ago, somehow or other people had gotten wind of this and they were stopping me in airports.

40:31Oh, yeah. Do you, have you, where are you in your process of educating yourself on the history of the whole canon? Well, I seem to be behind everybody. I'm just, I'm halfway through the second of these seven novels. I think the overall concept of this entire reboot of Harry Potter is an entire season is devoted to a single novel. Oh, that's really cool. Have you guys read those? I read the first one when it came out because it was, I mean, I was a little, it was, you know, I wasn't a kid anymore when it came out. and obviously they were huge with children at that time, et cetera. So I was like, well, I've got to read it because I want to see what everybody's talking about.

41:14So I read the first one and then I didn't go any further. And then once I had kids of my own, I ended up reading all of them out loud to my boys. Oh, that's amazing. And I've never seen the films. I've only read all the books. You're my audience. Will, you're my audience. Yes. so well made they are really quick story so do you know darlene hunt she's a good friend of mine she's a writer brilliant she created the big c uh show oh yeah yeah of course but anyway she's a great writer and she her girls were reading the books uh when they were really little and she goes well we watched the movie after we read the book right and she goes we're on book four or something like that go why don't you come over and we'll watch the book we'll watch the thing for you with your family.

42:02So she's like, great, I'll pick up a pizza. We'll come over and blah, blah, blah. So I go, you know what? We're going to just go balls out. We're going to make butterbeer for your girls. We're going to play the music when they walk in. Scotty dressed up as Harry Potter for Halloween once. He's going to put that stupid costume on for your girls. We'll make them feel like they're coming in, right? The thing. And so she pulls up with a pizza dressed as Maggie Smith in the big pointy hat, you know, dressed in McGonagall, with a huge cape and she's all in black. and she has a pizza in her hand and she walks in because we've been to my house a million times.

42:35She walks in and she sees this dog. She's like, that's weird. And she walks in further. I don't remember that dog. She walks in further and this guy is sitting at the kitchen table and goes, can I help you? And she goes, isn't Sean and Scotty live here? And he goes, no, they're next door. So she walked into the wrong house dressed as a witch with a pizza and the guy must have been like, what the fuck is going on? And she may have thought that the dog was a wizard. Yeah. It was the funniest, most embarrassing story ever. This is another segment of Sean's called Loser Friday Nights. Hey, listen.

43:12Do you... Wait, John, so speaking of this job, this gig that you're going to have for many years, and we talked a little bit about it before, how are you going to do back and forth, and how are your living situations? I mean, do you have to be gone the whole year, You'd gone like three months at a time? I honestly don't know the answer to that, Sean. I mean, I was over in England for eight months for The Crown and barely came back. I think I may have come back once or twice. I imagine that I can come back much more. Yeah. You know, Dumbledore, he's kind of the nuclear weapon. He only goes on very, very occasionally.

43:54And I don't think it's going to be that hard a job. And we'll just go back and forth. Where do you like to live? Where do you like to live when you're in London? What's your favorite? Well, I've lived in, we lived up near Primrose Hill on the Crown. We lived near the Royal Court in Chelsea this past fall when I did the play. And I've had, oh God, they found a wonderful house for us when I did the Crown. and we just lived like Londoners right down the street from Derek Jacoby. I love that. I love that. So, I mean, it's a wonderful thing to contemplate. I mean, the logistics are a little bit scary.

44:39I really did have to think hard about whether to take it on. But I also thought, well, I'm about to turn 80, you know, next year. No way. I'll turn 80. Wow. Is that true? That's the new 50s. It's absolutely true. I'm kidding. You look phenomenal. People ask me for my secret sauce, but I'm beginning to feel like 80. And that means that if this indeed is a seven or eight year long job, it's a wonderful way to grow old as an actor. Yeah. I mean, the alternative is to just be hauled out once a year to play an Alzheimer patient. To play a wise old wizard. An awful lot of death scenes with weeping middle-aged children.

45:24John, let me just say this. If you played an Alzheimer patient, I'm sure your performance would be unforgettable. By the way, you did in Planet of the Apes. You were great. You were an Alzheimer's person. Sean, I love you, Hugh. I didn't have to bring that up myself. Yes, of course. Of course, yeah. Now, does your wife have to be at UCLA every day teaching class? Oh, no, no. She is retired from teaching. She still researches and writes and goes to conferences. She travels more than I do. She travels all over the world. And I'm a trailing spouse on many occasions. Is home-based still Los Angeles still?

46:02It's more L.A. than New York, but we've split our time between the two. And now we're triangulating, really, with London. What a dream. That is my absolute dream. That dream. And Mary's from Montana. We have a little cabin on a lake in northwest Montana. And that's kind of our runaway place. which is just absolutely beautiful. That's great. Now, if you leave this podcast today without me asking if you have a funny theater story, these guys are killing me. Out of all of them, out of all of our guests, because you have such a theater history, and I love when things go wrong or people grow up. Forgetting a line or somebody having a heart attack.

46:44Attack or something in the crowd. Oh, Sean loves a heart attack. I may have said this one to you guys before, but I don't remember, so stop me if I have. But in high school, they created these thespian awards at the end of the year. And they had this award called the Gold Crutch. And it goes to whosoever the clumsiest or whoever made the biggest mistakes or whatever. That's a whole other story why I got it. So I go up to accept the Golden Crutch Award in front of everybody. And I thought, you know what might be funny? Is if I trip when I get the award. Sure. So I had it in my hand and I tripped and I knocked the tooth out of Missy Vogelsinger's mouth.

47:27Oh my God. My God. I swear to God, Missy Vogelsinger to this day. And she's standing there shaking and bleeding and I'm going, oh God, and the whole audience. It's a bit. And I go, should I do a speech or do I take care of her? And like a true actor, I just gave the speech. Speech, of course, the speech. Of course. Did you try to reassure everybody that this was a joke? This was fine. Oh, God. And the blood was coming down, and I was like, oh, my God. And it was one of the most embarrassing. By the way, that's why I got the golden crutch. Yeah, well. Anyhow. I guess the most curious mishap, I mentioned the changing room on Broadway, which took place in the rugby team's changing room.

48:1522 actors of whom 15 were players. And at a certain point, we stripped completely naked, got our uniforms on, off into the... We played the match, then came back at the end. Halfway through, my character, there was a scene that won me that Tony Award. I was brought off the pitch halfway through the match, covered in mud and very, very badly injured. Smashed nose, blood running down my face. I was taken offstage to an offstage bathtub, scrubbed all the mud off, and was brought back onstage by the equipment manager. I was stark naked and wet and glistening. He toweled me down and dressed me up like I was a baby.

49:12a long scene in silence. All you heard was the sound of the crowd roaring offstage. And at a certain point, he hoisted me to my feet and hauled my underpants up. These sort of pathetic briefs, you know. We were all these working class clods, really. But it was a very moving scene. This character was completely out of it. I was like inert, could barely see. And one night, he hoisted me up, tugged up my briefs, and my dick was sort of hanging out, just out the bottom, just like in front of, you know, 800 people, all sort of stricken in silence. That's really funny. And I thought, how in the world am I going to do this?

50:06I'm supposed to be completely inert. and I just sort of thinking nobody would notice. I sort of reached down and sort of flicked it inside my pants. I would say that was by far the most embarrassing. That's a good one. After the voting period, Hedon Glass called that. I would remind you, I was given a Tony Award for that. Yeah, there you go. No wonder. What we have to do. John, we've taken up too much of your time, but I want to ask you one last question because as Jason mentioned, I imagine over the years, and I know a lot of it is what comes our way, but a lot of stuff I imagine over the years has come your way.

50:47And you mentioned Frasier on Cheers. Is there a role that you have ever regretted, other than Frasier Crane perhaps, is there a role that you regretted and thought afterwards, oh, I should have said yes? Oh, yes. There are lots. I ordinarily don't tell people out of regard for the ones who ended up playing it. But I would say I must have the record for the most Tony Awards won by actors in roles that I turned down. Wow. There are literally, I think I'm in double figures by now. Oh, wow. And a couple of those do indeed completely torment me. Yeah. But I have to think that I played a few roles and had to great acclaim.

51:37And others have turned it down. John, you know what? Maybe you can look at it like this. You allowed and you gifted by passing on the genius writing and whatever that play was to allow somebody else to have it. And what an incredible positive thing to be a part of. You are so much a much better person than I am. I doubt it. You caught him on a good day, John. Eat my heart out, you know. No, but you're absolutely right. That is a beautiful way to look at it. And as I say, I never tell people that I play. Of course. You know, actually, I got a Tony, sorry, an Oscar nomination for Terms of Endearment replacing another actor.

52:26Wow. They had shot a couple of scenes with Deborah Winger in Terms of Endearment. and they had to let him go because it just wasn't right. They just didn't feel okay about Deborah Winger having an adulterous affair. So they came after me thinking I'm the perfect adulterer, apparently. And I have never revealed this actor's name just out of respect for him. Even though there were perfectly good reasons that I just explained why he wasn't right for that part. At that point in your life, you were the seediest person. they were like, we need somebody seedier. Let's get Lithgow. Exactly. You know, when we did Third Rock, we had something that I called the Lithgow rules.

53:10If anybody was ever replaced or dropped from the script, if the part was written out or whatever, that actor would have to get two phone calls, one from me and one from our producers, just to say it wasn't you. Yeah, that's great. Here are the reasons why. because, you know, it just has happened so many times in my experience that people are just cut out of films or dropped from... And they don't hear from anybody. They don't hear anything except from a casting director calling an agent, calling an actor and saying it didn't work out. Yeah. And that's so crushing. It is. You know, it's just because there's always 10 perfectly good reasons for things like that.

53:51That have nothing to do with the talent. Yeah, and we actors, we can take it. We know there's reasons for it. but we're soft we need to be held I've been you guys probably have too I've been fired from jobs before or my character was written out and then there have been people who were really kind of mentioned before casting director she's not really doing it anymore Deb Borilski and I got fired from a pilot that went to series and I heard nothing and the show got picked up my character was written off I wasn't young I was 32 at the time and I was feeling really shit shitty and I was in New York and uh and Deb Borilski wrote me a card I got it in the mail in my mailbox here in New York I got a card saying it was you know they made a mistake it wasn't you and blah blah blah and it was one of the kinder things and a few months later she cast you in Arrested Development and made a career actually a few months and a few months later she begged me I was doing a play in New York and she said you have to come I said no I'm not interested I'm so jaded and she goes you have to read for this thing Arrested Development oh my god but a great story.

54:57And it changed my life. Yeah. That is so nice. And it happens to everyone. Yeah. I would say this to young actors over and over, it happens to all of us. Really? It had never happened to me, but I was finally, oh my God, I went to the premiere of a film in which I had seven lovely scenes and I went to the premiere. I was just in New York and I saw, oh, there's a premiere of this film that I'm in. I'll call them and go to the premiere. Well, I sat down and watched my first scene, and it was cut in half. And I thought, well, that's too bad. Well, we'll wait for the next one. The next one was cut from the film.

55:38The next one was cut. The next one was cut. All that was left of my character was about the 30 seconds of my first scene in which I had stated the premise of this romantic comic. But it was enough to trigger residuals. And I sat there with my two kids and just experienced what I'd always told actors. It happens to all of us. Yeah, yeah. It's true. It's such a wild thing, isn't it? It's so wild. John, what an absolute incredible delight having you here today. Oh, you guys, it's real. I've always loved this show. I was very honored to be on it. It's so nice of you to join us. You're a real angel.

56:23Thank you so much. Well, I'm sure I'll see you within the next 48 hours at something. Yeah, you'll see Jason. You'll see Jason for sure. And we're going to come and see you in London. We're going to come and see Sean and JB. Yeah, absolutely. Sean, I'm going to see you. Good night, Oscar. The great news. That's what I take away from today. Thanks, Kyle. Thank you. All right, John. Thank you. Oh, and I haven't told you about my history with Bennett. I was going to go do a deep dive on Bennett Barbecue. Yeah, look at that. Here's the portrait by John Lithgow. What? Here's the portrait. You did that?

56:55That's my painting of Bennett, yeah. Isn't that pretty good? Wow, that's fantastic. You look more like the painting than ever. It's like the portrait of Dorian Gray. I was John's muse. How are you guys connected? Wait a second. So Bennett Barbaco, who works with us on the show, who's here now, how do you and Bennett know each other? Bennett was like one of my daughter's very good friends at Seeds UES School when they were about seven, eight, nine years old. And I know Bennett's folks all these years. Wait, wait, Bennett, you went to lab school? I sure did before it was called lab school, yeah.

57:32And yeah, and both my kids, my older kids, both my older kids went to lab school, John. Amazing, circles within circles. But his parents, I put up for a fundraising dinner. I offered to paint a portrait of your child. And they bid and they won. and so I painted Bennett's portrait. Oh, wow. That's crazy. It took me about seven years to paint it. It was a source of great guilt. It was worth it. But I finally showed up. That's amazing. How cool is that, Bennett? When people come over, you go, look at that, John Lithgow did that. This is jail at the bottom. That's cool. Bennett, your mom and dad love you.

58:13You see, I told you I always wanted to be an artist and it turns out it's not too late. Pretty good one. It's never too late. That's amazing. That's amazing. Thank you for that, John. That's amazing. Oh, well, thank you, Bennett. I'm glad we squeezed that in. Yes, absolutely. So good to see you, John. Okay, you too. Bye-bye now. Bye, guys. Bye. Bye-bye. Bye, John. Now, we have had some assholes. We have had, you know. Jason, Jason, hold up. This son of a bitch. Jason, Jason, hold up, man. No, we... What a delight. My God. Jesus, I know. I feel like I've known him. I feel he's a good, good, good guy.

58:54Wow, I can't believe he's almost 80. He looks younger than Jason. It's fucking crazy. I got to see him play that killer because I can't imagine him ever being nasty. I know, I want to see him. Ever being angry. You can. You see through it. You think it's all bullshit. No, no, no, no. I don't mean it that way. I don't mean it that way. I mean that he is such a versatile, he has such facility as an actor I mean he can he has played I'm trying to think he's played like some Raising Cain yeah yeah Raising Cain some scary scary characters and he's still doing theater I mean how about he's like yeah I'm doing Dumbledore oh I'm gonna do this play though before I'm like I know God doesn't doesn't slow down it's very inspiring I know but anyway it's a great great call getting him I love him I love him we were supposed to have him on before and there was a thing and it was messed up and it was so we had a technical error one of our episodes that didn't work out and I was like oh my god are we ever going to get him back because he's traveling all the time and he's working all the time and I just thought god I'm so happy that we were actually able to make it happen yeah he's great I mean he's just I'll bet you could rattle off at least a dozen movies that you go that's right he was in that he's just always got some great part in some great project that you forget about yeah oh dude he's been in he's been in everything right right you know yeah i mean if you take them all boy oh all his films yeah it's the pause it's the pause that's what it is jason it's the pause that he can also hear the engine start like yeah if you take all of them and put them together and it would be such it's it's such an incredible body of work if you take them all and you come...

1:00:41Bye! Bye! Bye! That was terrible. That was terrible. Smart. Less.

1:00:54Smart. Less. Smartless is 100 % organic and artisanally handcrafted by Bennett Barbaco, Michael Grant Terry, and Rob Armjarf. Smart Less