"Jon Bernthal"

8:32Sean Hayes:He, Sean, you're going to like this, okay? Okay. He studied at the prestigious Moscow Arts Theater in Russia. Wow. Okay? And then he went, I'm pretty sure he went to Harvard and got a Master of Fine Arts, or he did something like in there. He studied crazy theater, has done a ton of theater. He's currently in a show on Broadway. I don't want to say the title of the show because you're going to know who it is immediately. He's done countless great performances in Wolf of Wall Street. He was in a small part in Sicario, Baby Driver, Wynn River. And they had great, great parts in Ford vs. Ferrari, King Richard.

9:10Sean Hayes:You also know him as the Punisher. He's going to be in the Odyssey. He was the accountant, Accountant 2. He's been in, I got to know him by watching him on The Walking Dead. But I loved him in this series, We Own the City. Guys, it's Jon Bernthal. Yeah. The great. Oh, my gosh.

9:25Will Arnett:I kind of got it. The great. Hell, wow. Dude. Hey, buddy.

9:30Sean Hayes:Jon, what a thrill, man. I'm such a fan, dude. I'm such a fan of what you do. That's so cool. That's so cool. You just say happy birthday, Will. Sing it. Sing it, John.

9:41Will Arnett:Sing it. Man, I would sing it, but I'm trying to save my voice for Broadway right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Holy fuck. Yeah. Will, man, I just, I want to tell you how much I just was blown away by your film, man. Oh, yeah. Just such a beautiful dive into, yeah, but just like about fatherhood and being a husband and being an artist and like re-falling in love with your wife. And it just like, I don't know, it was one of those things where, you know, like I found it on like the perfect day and the perfect time and it just filled me with so much. And it really was your performance. It was just so, I reached out to Bradley about it as well, but it was just such a human, gorgeous, deep felt performance.

10:25And it was awesome, man. So thank you for that. Thank you very kindly.

10:28Sean Hayes:Thank you, dude. And I know you mentioned that you're saving your voice. John is currently, as you guys know, in Dog Day Afternoon on Broadway Yeah, big hit With my good buddy Johnny O is in that too Oh yeah, the best Johnny O Johnny O And I mean, how's that going, man? How's the play going? I mean, it's a hit, as Sean said I mean, look, it's been It's so cool that folks are coming to the theater That don't normally come to the theater I love seeing that It's so many people that we see outside Say it's the first time not just that they've ever been on Broadway, but that they're coming to the theater.

11:04Like buses are coming in from Staten Island, which is so great. And yeah, I mean, not to be a total cheese dick, but I did. I kind of, this thing, you know, sort of saved my life. And I kind of came about it in Russia. That's really where I figured this, you know, that's really where my formative years were. And, you know, theater there is very vital and it's for everybody. It's not this sort of exclusive thing for the gentry. It's for everybody, and it's a part of everyday life, and it's enormously important to folks. So it's really cool, I think, that this is just sort of expanding the theater audience, and it's been a thrill.

11:43It's been a thrill to see how much people dig it.

11:45Sean Hayes:Yeah, I mean, you mentioned it. I mentioned, too, that you studied in Russia, and I'm kind of so interested because you grew up in Maryland, which we're going to come back to Maryland because we're going to come back to, we own this city because dude okay but you you ended up studying theater in russia i'm like how walk us through how that happened man because that's extraordinary it seems like well i yeah and what like what time was that about what year was that so i lived in russia from 99 to i guess 2001 and and and honestly i mean it's something you know i went to school to play sports i played football and baseball and i played baseball in in college and um but i was getting in all kinds of trouble.

12:26And really, if there was a dead end to walk down, I was walking down and just running into every kind of wall. And, you know, I really sort of found theater on, you know, on an accident. I was just an idiot. And I signed up for a class. And I thought I was taking the class with 600 kids in it and sitting in the back of a theater watching movies. But me being the kind of asshole that I was, I signed up for the, you know, the intro to theater class, which was just 10 people took it very seriously.

12:55Will Arnett:Wait, you thought it was like a movie theater? I totally did. That's what I heard. All the athletes were like, you have to take an art requirement. And I had no idea. And, uh, you know, I've told this story before, but the first assignment was to bring in something that was deeply important to you and to share it with the class. And I had never seen such weird, uh, I, I, I'd never experienced something this sort of insane of these grown people talking about an object that that was so important to them and emoting and breaking down. And, um, I'd never really been around theater people before and slowly, but surely it came to my turn and I didn't bring anything.

13:31I didn't have anything because I was such a donkey and, uh, you know, but, but I was going to fall baseball practice right after. And I had my catcher's glove with me. So I guess launched into this story about how my, my mother had given me this baseball glove on her deathbed. And my mom's like alive and well in DC, but I launched into this story and I'm crying my eyes out and everyone in the room is crying their eyes out. I'm like, no, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait. I'm just, I'm doing the acting, you know? And like snot was coming out of my, I was just so upset because I got lost in the story.

14:03And so this wonderful woman, Alma Becker, who my first theater teacher ended up marrying my wife and I, she, you know, kicked everybody out of that class and she just ripped my ass for violating the sanctity of her studio. but she's like, you know, you got something. And my punishment was to audition for the play. And I got into it and I did the play. And she was the one, when I wound up getting in a little bit of trouble and I couldn't finish school, you know, I said, look, this is something I really wanted to do. And I had no idea sort of what the pathway was. And she said, look, there is none.

14:36But if I were you, I would try to get into the Moscow Art Theater and go study over there. That's amazing. Yeah, it saved my life. I mean, and being in Russia.

14:45Will Arnett:Yeah, but what part of that for, I mean, I'll show my ignorance here because I'll bet the Moscow. Again? Yeah, that school is a clear pathway to stuff. But what, you didn't know that. Why would you think that that would be, oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'll go to Moscow to figure out how to break into, you know, New York or Hollywood. Yeah, I wasn't really thinking about kind of, you know, breaking in wasn't really even in the, you know, like staying out of trouble and just finding this thing. And really just this sort of blind faith I had in this wonderful woman. And it's just such a testament to how beautiful a teacher, you know, the role that they can have in a young person's life.

15:30And it's just astounding. She saved my life. And it's really cool being here in New York and being on Broadway because I do feel so much of, I'm very, I feel like I'm very in touch with that 18-year-old kid, with that kid who found this thing and would have never believed in a million years you would have the opportunity to go out there, you know, in front of this kind of audience every day. And Alma is very much with me. You know, we lost her a few years back, way too young, but I think I just had blind faith in her and it wasn't really a pathway to New York. I didn't know what an agent was. But it was that school, that place.

16:12Wow. Did you, I mean, like, I'm an idiot. Like, my perception of going to Russia now, I would never step foot in Russia just because of the, you know, I watched the news. You might not come back. I might not come back. What was it like for you then? And what is it, and would you ever go back? Oh, I would love to go back. This was, what, 15, 20 years ago? Yeah, I mean, now you can't. It was 99, so 20, you know, that's when I first went. I mean, it was a wild time. You know, people referred to it as the Wild West there, You know, there were shootings at the Duma, which is like their Senate. You know, the Chechens were blowing up apartment buildings in town.

16:46It was completely wild. People were really, it was still at the beginning of this. And you're like, and I have a curtain at 8 p.m., people. I got to get through the streets. But I do think, you know, for me, you know, a few things at play. I mean, I think I sort of considered myself at the time, you know, I was a boxer. I was sort of, you know, considered myself a street smart kind of guy. so to kind of go into a world where not just it's a different alphabet they speak a different language but it was just so wildly different than anything that I ever saw and I will say I encountered you know real brutality there's a real brutality on the streets that at that time was sort of impossible it will find you one way or the other but also mixed with this unbelievable just profound beauty and this reverence for the arts you know they there's a statue on every corner of a playwright or a poet or an actor.

17:40And honestly, at that time in my life, you know, I don't know that I would have, you know, responded, you know, really to American theater training, you know, to be a, to be an actor in Russia was such a revered thing. And it was a very, for lack of a better word, it was a very masculine thing to do.

17:56Sean Hayes:And do you think John sort of coming from your background, then like going to a place that had that, that, that was like, it's almost like in-your-face arts in a way, I mean, reverential and also like appreciation, but so, you know, that it was so sort of startling in that way and it was so in-your-face. Do you think that that actually kind of woke you up to it in a way that you might not have been appreciated here in America? Do you know what I mean by that? I do. I mean, look, I think for me personally, and again, I know it sounds maybe, you know, apologies, it sounds maybe grandiose, but I really do feel like it saved my life.

18:28I was getting in so much trouble and my life just was making no sense. And it gave you structure. It gave me structure. It gave me something to believe in. It connected me with something spiritual. And then when I went over there and my teachers were all folks who kind of came up in a system where public gathering was outlawed. So for them to do plays, you know, they were doing plays in subway tunnels and abandoned buildings. And had they been caught, you know, both the audience and the folks on stage would have been sent away, sent to prison. But it was so vital to them that they had to do it anyway.

18:59It was religious for them. And so for my teachers to be those kinds of people, you know, I mean...

19:08Sean Hayes:It makes me think, like, Sean, you're like, hey, any fun theater stories? Like, yeah, I once got shot in the head for doing a monologue. Yeah, John, sometimes I'll ask people who are in the theater on the show, I'm like, do you have, like, a staple, hilarious, like, something gone wrong? Do you ever forget your lines? Yeah, like theater story, you know, like a classic, something went wrong. but I can't imagine. Some of the words in Russia must be insane. Wait, John. I'm sorry, Jason. I just want to be in the theater here for a second. Jason, this is because it involves you. You're on Broadway right now.

19:41Sean Hayes:You're doing the show. The show's over. Do you have people come backstage? Go ahead, Jason.

19:48Will Arnett:Jason has this. Do you want people backstage when you're done with the show? He's obsessed with the rules of people going backstage. Because I hear if you don't go back, you're being rude. And I figure if you go back, you're being presumptuous that likes you know hey you're famous i'm famous we don't know each other but uh you probably want to say hi you know oh man how do you answer this without getting in trouble yeah i don't know i i i we've asked everybody don't worry no no it look i you know it's such a weird thing because i don't want to know who's there and i feel like there's always a way that it's the information kind of sneaks through i mean ebon and i have done a thing there's a guest list so almost every night ebon and i you know i think last night we we said Barack Obama was there the night before.

20:29I think we said we always make shit up just to freak everybody out. But I don't know. It's a very, I really appreciate when folks come back and it's not an awkward, you know, it's really, it's like a hotbed of awkwardness, I feel like a lot of times. Even when people are, they're clearly moved, it clearly was, but you know, you're so tired and you're in a weird sort of state.

20:58Will Arnett:Yeah, and that's just it. You're kind of obligated to make them feel comfortable because it's your house, you know? You're back there in your dress. And they're obligated to make you feel that they loved it. You know? Right.

21:08Sean Hayes:Jason, Jason, do you think that there's a world now, like next week, if you're in New York, you go and you see, which you should go see, I want to come and see Dog Day. I can't wait to see it. Jason, can you now, having had this conversation with John, do you find that you could show up next week? Only because we've had this conversation

21:23Will Arnett:so that when we see each other, it's not going to be awkward will give each other that little look like, I'm here. Man, I would want you to do exactly what you want to do. Like if you wanted to come back, I would want you to come back. But if you didn't, I would want you to feel so totally good about that. He's nervous. Just going out and enjoy your night. He's so nervous. I just assume people want to get home.

21:46We'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by FX's The Lowdown. From acclaimed Reservation Dogs creator Sterling Harjo, the series stars five-time Academy Award nominee Ethan Hawke as Lee Raybon, a self-described Tulsa truth-storian whose fixation on the truth tends to create more problems than it solves. This gloriously off-kilter noir is an AFI television program of the year and one of 2025's most critically acclaimed shows. The Lowdown is available for your Emmy consideration on Hulu and Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Summer's here, and whether you're traveling, shuttling kids to camp, or spending long days by the pool, staying healthy and on budget is always top of mind.

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24:01Will Arnett:And now, back to the show. John, do you do any kind of warm-up stuff with your voice? I mean, do you even think about where you place your voice and how you support it so you can do eight shows a week and all that? Because if you don't know how to do it, people tend to lose their voices pretty quickly. Yeah, no, it's a battle. And that was the thing everybody said going in. And I know, Sean, you know it so well. It's like physically, that's one thing I sort of feel like I always have in the bag, you know, like the physical thing. You're not going to exhaust me that way. this is fucking exhausting i mean this is unlike anything i've ever done yeah but you know the um i you'll if you if you do see it you know i speak in a much higher register when i when i do the show um and i think that that helps but yeah i definitely warm up and um you know kate wilson's working with us and she's incredible you know she's like one of one i just did this show a while just a few weeks ago called the unknown and in it every single night for seven shows a week on page one, there's this stalker stalking me outside.

25:08There's this stalker stalking me outside of the house and I would do the same movement every single time. I would go up on the ball of my foot, right? I would go on the ball of my foot looking like I'm looking for the stalker outside the house. Look at this.

25:21Will Arnett:No. Oh, no. I have a boot on. You're a walking boot. I have a boot on because of the play. You didn't hear about boots?

25:27Sean Hayes:Boots is... Yeah, boots is bad. Boots McGee? Because of this repetitive, right? the repetitive movements that you do every single day. So don't you, is any part of your body just like feeling that? Any kind of like physical whatever?

25:43Will Arnett:Can I answer this for you, John? You see, John doesn't mainline fucking ding-dongs and tuna fish sandwiches.

25:50Sean Hayes:He's not like acting like a person who needs to be cut out of their house. You know what I mean?

25:54Will Arnett:His calf, his calf can withstand a little press. Yeah, because he's getting over

25:59Sean Hayes:1 ,100 steps a day, okay? I will say, I try to box or go to the gym every day, and I do think it really does help that you're doing something else. For Tracy and Sean, the gym is a thing that you... It's spelled G-Y-M. Okay, got it. Not Jim.

26:20Will Arnett:Hey, Sean, what was, without prying too much into your history and your flavor of trouble that you like to get into, what was it that you found about the theater that was a bit of uh oh jay i thought you were

26:34Sean Hayes:gonna say like what what was your favorite kind of coke because i preferred columbian because i don't mind a speedy brand every once in a while um what um what was like uh

26:43Will Arnett:what what did you find theater did for for you that alleviated some of that uh the cause I found that the exact same energy that I tapped into when I was young and sort of my way of, you know, my best friends on the planet are still the guys that I grew up with. They're my best friends. And I think that we were wild kids. And I think our way of honestly telling each other that we loved each other was taking crazy risks together and doing things that we shouldn't have done. And I felt that, for me, the very same thing, the reckless abandonment and the— High wire act. I'll say, like, the violence.

27:34Like, let's just throw it all away. Like, whatever this is, we're fucking going. finding that but using it, tapping into that same thing. But it wasn't landing me in jail. It wasn't landing me in trouble or getting kicked out of schools. It was actually bringing joy to people and making me find different parts of myself that I knew how to sort of access really well. But it was, I mean, again, without sounding like a cheese dick, it was using it for good. And it did. It saved my life.

28:03Sean Hayes:Yeah. I mentioned Walking Dead. That was the first time that I feel like I remember seeing you on a regular basis in something. And I was like, I remember watching that show and thinking, who the fuck is this dude? He's so locked in. He's so dialed. Like, this dude is, he's got something. Was that a thing, was that a major turning point, do you think, in your professional career, Walking Dead? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And just in my life in general, at that point, you know, I got married right after season one to my wife, who I met the day I got home from Russia. She was an ICU trauma nurse.

28:44We grew up together. She's seen the worst of me, hopefully the best of me. But, you know, she's my whole life. And had my first child in the beginning of season two, surrounded by people who had young families, you know, doing this work. And the work still meant so much to them. And they were just family and work. But, yeah, I think with Frank Darabont and that show, So, you know, none of us in a million years thought it was going to be kind of the juggernaut thing that it was. There was such humility to it. And people believed in it so much. And it's funny because if you, you know, if you put, you know, six or seven people out in the woods and you say, okay, there's zombies out there.

29:28If one person isn't going 100 % towards that fucking truth, it's like everything else is bullshit, you know. So the show was just such kind of total commitment right from the beginning. And, yeah, I was just so grateful to Frank and so grateful to be a part of that show. You know, it was definitely life-changing.

29:49Sean Hayes:Yeah, I imagine. It's funny you say that. Yeah, like everybody's got to – that show had such a great ability to keep the tension so taut at all times. Like you were just like always on the edge of your seat. And you're right. Can you imagine if you had one guy just kind of dialing it into the frame? Yeah, phoning it in. You know what I mean? Yeah. My guy doesn't seem that worried about what's going on.

30:11Will Arnett:Hey, John, talk about that transition from how acting sort of was serving you in one respect early on. And then as sort of your demons, you started to get some distance from your demons a bit. And it's really starting to fall in love with the acting and the talent you were recognizing in yourself. And you started to shape some technique, I would imagine. And talk about that transition into, well, wait a second, I'm no longer kind of that guy. I'm kind of really becoming more this part of myself. And this could actually become a career, an occupation, and I'm kind of decent at this. And was there a point where you realized, oh, wait, I'm kind of all in on this now.

31:00Will Arnett:And I don't really know how to do anything else. And I like that. And this is going to be it. Let's really become this guy. And was there that moment or did it just kind of happen naturally as jobs kind of progressed? And now you look back and you go, wow, now I am this. Well, look, I mean, I think that there's something, I don't know if you guys feel it being, you know, with everything you guys have done and who you are. But for me, I know the healthiest relationship that I can have with this thing is to just to be hungry and to not really be at any place of arrival. And what I love about it, it's the same thing I love about being a dad, is that the only thing that's for certain is you're going to fucking fail.

31:49You know, like you're going to mess up and you got to like, you got to own it and you got to acknowledge it and you got to work through it. And each one of those mess ups and each one of those failings is such an unbelievable opportunity for connection and teaching and growing together for both you and your kid. And I feel so, I feel like it's the exact same with what we do. And I'm, again, I'm just like very, very grateful that I get to do something that I can always just, I'm always chasing and trying to get better at. And challenging yourself. I will say at the time, yeah, for sure. And like right now, like doing this play, like to be this at this age and at this point in my life and still be terrified is such a thrill.

32:30It's dope. Yeah, for sure. It's very cool. That's why you do it. Yeah. Yeah. But I will say for me, luckily, things started to kind of work out for me at the exact same time that I started a family. And I will say it's just for me, my life has become, you know, really, really simple and clear. It's them and it's this. and I'm very happy with that.

32:54Sean Hayes:That's not a coincidence, by the way. That's not a coincidence. I think we all know, like, for me, I had the similar experiences. Having kids has cracked me open in a way that it's allowed me to be open to all sorts of things. And so I always believe that those kinds of things go hand in hand. And, you know, it's funny. You were saying this thing about, you know, you're going to make mistakes. And I always think about, I remember watching this documentary about this soccer team, but the coach, this very famous coach, Jose Mourinho, We were talking to the team. The team kind of got down on themselves, and they were down at halftime.

33:25Sean Hayes:And he comes in, they filmed his speech to the team, and he was like, you guys are acting like every time there's a mistake or the other team gets a goal or whatever, it's the end of the world. And he's like, the other team is going to score. You're going to make mistakes. They're going to get a goal because they're trying to do the same thing you are. But the trick is, what do you do? How do you cope with it? That's the thing. And that always stuck with me. And I sort of apply it. I don't know about you guys. I think about that shit all the time in my life. When stuff doesn't go exactly my way, I go, yeah, shit's not going to always go your way.

33:59Sean Hayes:Okay. I can't fall apart when it doesn't. I got to go, okay, now what? What can I do now? You know what I mean? And sometimes things go, you know, just the sort of proximity to, you know, real tragedy and real failure. And, you know, these things, sometimes life hands you such a kick in the ass that it will change your entire perspective. But also, you know, there's real tragedy that I think comes part and parcel with it. But sometimes you just get close to it. Sometimes it's just a reawakening or you get close to something or you think maybe somebody's sick and they're not. And I just, I feel like it is so true that with each, you know, sort of failing or fall or tragedy, there offers such an opportunity.

34:49And I do think, you know, primarily the job is now to be a parent and you got to hold it together and you got to show them the different lenses that, you know, that just changing your perspective, how much can be gained by that.

35:04Sean Hayes:Well, luckily I'm able to show my kids a lot of failure, so it's good that I'm very open with them. Yeah, me too.

35:11Will Arnett:How old are the kids, John? I have a 14-year-old, a 12-year-old, a 10-year-old, and then my little 4-year-old niece has come to live with us the last few years, too. Oh, wow. That's terrific. Are any of them showing any interest in what you do? Oh, gosh, no, man. No, no, no. Have they come see the play? Yeah, they've come see the play, and they're coming again this weekend, But my kids are all, you know, they're very into sports and the outdoors. And, you know, they have very full and beautiful hearts, each one of them. And each one of them is so, you know, such an individual. You know, it's there for them, I think, if they'd ever want it.

35:55But I think right now, you know, what I do is not too cool to them.

36:00Will Arnett:How do you, because I think about this for myself. I've got two girls, 19 and 14. Beautiful. And, you know, I haven't had a perfectly straight line towards where I'm at, you know, emotionally or otherwise. You know, I didn't do, you know, the perfect thing all the time. But I like where I've landed. And I don't think I would have landed in this spot had I not banged into a couple of walls. And so as I see my girls growing up and, you know, when they go through things that are not sheltered, I start to think, well, how would I react if they make a wrong choice? You know, because like I don't want to be hypocritical.

36:48Will Arnett:I like the way my adversity has sort of shaped me. And so I battle with that as a parent. You know, you want your kids to have a pristine, you know, travel. So how, you know, like I'm sure your kids are, they've got half.

37:03Sean Hayes:By pristine, do you mean like protected? Like you want them to.

37:06Will Arnett:Well, no, but I mean, I think it's just a natural instinct. You don't want your kid to ever make a mistake. You don't want anything to. But right. So I just, I wonder if my kids ever started to experiment with some of the risks that I went through. Sure. I wouldn't want to be, I wouldn't encourage them to do that. but I certainly wouldn't be unaccepting of them coming to me afterwards and saying, yeah, I screwed up. I did this. You know, so I'm not sure what the question is, but, you know, I guess would you, how tolerant would you be if your kids started to walk down somewhere the same path you did knowing that you came out okay, you know?

37:41Yeah. I mean, it's such a good, look, I mean, it's, it's, it's, again, it's like, these are the questions where we're, you know, you know, as parents, it's like, you know, we're, it's such a blessing to be this obsessed with these people's lives and their wellbeing. And I think adversity is such a important word. There is absolutely no way that I could do the things that I could do, put food on the table the way that I do, if I didn't get the licks that I got and the bumps that I got and was in the valleys that I spent a lot of time in. And so I knew, you know, instinctively, I know with my children, adversity is so necessary.

38:18And how do I teach my kids the things I've learned, but also know they cannot learn them the way that I learned them because there was so many times, and I'm sure it's the same for you guys, where this shit could have gone either way. It was razor fucking close. And like, you know, and we've lost people. I've lost people. I've lost my freedom. I've been in situations where, okay, by the grace of whatever you want to call it, it just went a different way. But oh my gosh, like I've seen it really not work out. And so, you know, from a young age with my kids, you know, they were, you know, competing in martial arts.

38:54They were, you know, like everybody needs to know how to swim. Everybody needs to know how to defend themselves. Everybody needs to know how to be in the outdoors. And, and, and how can you sort of under the umbrella of safety, put them in really, really hard, challenging situations where they can learn from. And, and I think moreover, I think, especially for, for, for my boys, you know, how do I teach them, you know, in this day and age where there's so few role models out there for these young boys, how do I teach them that like, yes, like it, like it is absolutely paramount that you are a protector, that you're a provider, that you're somebody that can be counted on, that, that people in a crowd, if something goes wrong, will you guys have the know-how and the ability to be helpful, but also equally important, are you sensitive?

39:41Are you kind? Are you vulnerable? Are you open? Are you curious? Do you not judge? Are you hungry for conversation? Are you hungry to learn? Are you hungry to be challenged by somebody who thinks, looks, feels, prays to somebody completely different than you? Are you confident enough in yourself to approach any conversation but also be nimble enough to listen and to be swayed and be changed? I'm not, I'm not, John. I need your guidance.

40:09Sean Hayes:Jesus Christ, I need your guidance. Come on, man. We all do. It's all of it. You know, like that's what's so cool about it. And I do feel, I don't know if you guys feel the same thing, but I do feel these paths for me are really lining up where the work that, at least the work that I want to be doing, you know, really has a, it really informs us. It informs me as a human being. I get a deeper understanding, but also, you know, one day my kids will look at it and they'll say, one, yeah, dad was working his ass off. But two, you know, that there's a message there that there's a humanity there that they see in all people, even when you play a monster, you know, that there's a little kid in there.

40:48There's a scared little kid in there. And that it's never too late. It's never too late to bring somebody out of the valley. How in the world did you gather all this wisdom? Everything you just said. He's a smart fella. Seriously, it's incredible. Well, Sean, he doesn't spend all his time

41:02Sean Hayes:watching Below Deck eating Swedish fish, you know what I mean?

41:05Will Arnett:I got to cross that off my list. I mean, what are you talking about? Phil Lowe, Jack. He's out of the world, okay? No, traitors. Traitors. Traitors. No, seriously, that was just incredible, everything you just said. Well, you know, he went through the fire.

41:23Sean Hayes:I know, but it's like... But Sean, I mean, look, you, everybody that I know here on this thing, Sean, you came, you didn't have any, nobody handed you this. This is true. You came from a, you know, you had a single mom household. Your dad left, which we make fun of all the time. It's super funny the way he left. It was so sudden. Fantastic. And five kids just left them all. Just one day, just gone. Just evaporated.

41:49Will Arnett:Just tire screech.

41:50Sean Hayes:Yeah, just like he was on the USS Enterprise. He just got beamed out of there.

41:58Sean Hayes:But, I mean, Sean, you grew up in that, and you had to kind of fend for yourself, and you fended away, and you were a talented dude. And JB, you were out in the world working since you were a kid, and you had to kind of fend for yourself as well. Like, you know what it's like. And none of us knew anybody. I didn't know anybody in show business. And Will, you had, like, how many maids and servers did you have to leave your house? We ended up reducing. After the crash of 87, we reduced a little bit.

42:23Will Arnett:But at boarding school, everybody was, anyway, it doesn't matter. Parking spot for all of them.

42:28Sean Hayes:You know, it's like. But the point is, like, you, I bet you have more. it feels like, John, what's nice is you have real access to your experience in a way that's very, that you stay very in touch with it. And that's great because you can kind of, because your kids can learn from that. And that is a thing that I try to do. I try to, Jason, like you were saying, I have those moments where I'm like trying to understand their experience, where they're at, trying to identify with where they're at, where I was at at that age. I have three boys. I have two teenage boys. And I spent a lot of time going, you know, they're going through it.

43:05Sean Hayes:They're going through those years. And I go like, let them have the thing. And also don't make it about me and like, hey, when I was a kid, just let them have those things, but try to identify with those moments. And it's not always easy, you know, but you try to do it as much as you can. Yeah. We'll be right back. This summer, if your group chat is throwing around, we should get away, consider Scottsdale, Arizona. Sure, it's warm, but that's kind of the point because summer in Scottsdale comes with some very cool perks like luxury resort rates starting at just$109 a night. And you've got options, epic family-friendly resorts with full-on water parks or quieter pool scenes.

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45:52Back to the show. John, do you have, because everything, I could talk to you about all this stuff you were just talking about forever. I love talking about that kind of stuff. Don't give him your number, John. Do not give him your number. He's going to try to go side chat. He's going to try to go side chat. No, now, do your kids get, do your kids feel like dad is overwhelming with all of those kind of teachings and kind of parenting, or do they actually listen to what you're saying? I'm not sure. You know, I'm not sure. Look, I, you know, like, My oldest son boxes. I'm his trainer. I coach them in football, and I've coached them in basketball since they were young.

46:30I coach my daughter. The thing that I know they see is what I saw in my dad. And my dad was the guy that when people in the neighborhood, people around D.C., my friends, they all had their own relationships with my dad. When they were in trouble, they went to my dad. He was their coach. He was a guy that he'd call them straight. You know, he wouldn't bullshit them. He'd help them. He always had everybody's back. Yeah. And he wouldn't judge. Let's work through this. Let's get through this. And then we'll deal with the judgment and all that shit later. But he was a guy that could really be depended on.

47:08And so I think my kids have seen that, you know, I have real relationships. You know, we live in, you know, this small town of, you know, we live in Ojai. And we've been there 15 years. I love Ojai. And it's such a small, yeah, it's beautiful. And it's a beautiful community where you still can, you know, raise other kids. You know, you parent other people's kids. You know, kids come to me and, you know, I teach them how to box. I've been coaching football there for the last six years. And, you know, we have a theater there where the kids come. And so I think that the one thing my kids know is that it's not, I'm sort of the same with all of them.

47:46And if a kid comes to me, it doesn't matter if he's my kid or your kid, you know, I really, really, I want to give them whatever I can give them. With, while saying, look, I don't have the fucking answers. Like, I hit every wall you can hit. Right. But, like, it's never too late. And your parents love you. Whether you're, you know, whether they left or not. Whether they're incarcerated or not. They love you.

48:05Sean Hayes:Sean, by the way, he started a theater, basically like a theater and a theater festival up in Ojai. Is that right, Sean? Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, I mean, it's just, you know, in the town, the town has given me so much and I love it. And, you know, since we, since my first exposure to it, you know, I saw something in the young people in that town, you know, 10, 15 years ago, where there was such sturdiness and such grace and kindness. There's a, it's, it's, yes, it's, it's yes, sir, no ma 'am, but there's nothing repressed or suppressed. The kids are curious. There's a really strong onus of the young people in Ojai to get out, go see the world, go experience things, and then come back and raise your family there.

48:51And it's a really beautiful community. But I will say over the past, you know, five, 10 years, especially so many folks have moved up there and, and, and culturally it's, it's really a place in, conflict because the tipping point has kind of happened. We see it in big cities all the time. Definitely happened in D.C. where I grew up. But in Ojai, it's really gotten to a place where the public school there, which was a real bastion of public education, has really suffered because of the influx of Angelenos that have come up there. And so I just, I love that school. I love these kids i love these institutional ohio families so we built a theater in an old defunct um school building and all the proceeds go to the public school theater department and you know we were able to raise yeah a ton it was really cool sean's agreeing to do a show

49:44Sean Hayes:there next year it's great yeah that's great sean i can see what a way to agree to something you know will always will always uh makes fun of me because i whenever i go to like a party or a dinner i want to leave right away and i'm like i learned it from my dad no look who jumped on look who jumped on he did teach you something you know we mentioned you mentioned dc and maryland and i want to i want to get to because i is one of the i i for me it was a show that really i i thought like wow it really fucking uh just blew me away when you played uh was it wayne jenkins yeah yeah on we own the city do you guys see that on hbo this david simon show it's unbelievable Unbelievable.

50:25Sean Hayes:And what's cool is now kind of just talking to you, I understand you. I can see that, like, you brought some of your own knowledge of all that kind of stuff and like sort of the guys who ended up staying on the wrong track or got on the wrong track and never got off in this really. Wayne is a very compromised character and he does and I think that somewhere along the line when he started he thinks he's doing the right thing right like he thinks he's fighting in this but he actually ends up sort of going rogue or bad or whatever but he sees himself not as doing that anyway it's a very complex portrayal and I love that show I mean that must tell me about working with David Simon and what that experience was like it's excellent man Thanks, man.

51:10I appreciate it. That one is my heart. And, you know, it was such a thrill and an honor for me. I think first and foremost, you know, at that time, in the wake of Freddie Gray and in the midst of George Floyd and everything that was going on in this country, and for me, just being so, I think naturally, based on people in my life and based on my own experience, I'm so revolted by the flag waving in this country, the people on either side of the poles, just waving their flag full of rhetoric, but they've never been in the valleys. They've never been in the situation where they're actually rubbing elbows with the other side.

51:48So you can't, there's no, there's no access to, to, to, to recognizing decency in each other. There's no access for empathy. There's no access to, to, to, to, for friendship or for any level of understanding. Cause you're just staying on your mountaintop, you know, from the, you know, just waving your flag. And, and, and so for me to go into this project, you know, that, you know, in Baltimore, which is sort of like right in the tip of the spear of, of, of race and policing at, at that time, you know, and get this front row ticket and also just to have the access coming in sort of with the street cred of, of David Simon and how much the wire, you know, in that city, that, that wire for both the guys on the street, the people in the community and for the police, like that is that is like required watching like the cops that i know in baltimore they watch that every year to remind them that it's not personal it's business and you guys gotta see yeah you've seen the wire right you guys have seen the wire right yeah yeah so so for me to kind of go in there like that you know i got to go you know i rode out with those guys every night for for for uh three straight months and went on swat raids with the the county swat team and the city swat team, but got to know Wayne, got to know, you know, that whole unit of the gun trace task force.

53:02So I made unbelievable friends and I was able to see, you know, I was just so grateful to, to really see it in that way. But I think more than anything else, man, and you know, look, he was considered, you know, the most corrupt, the most vicious, the most sort of vile, you know, police officer in the history of that city. So to go into the police department and say, hey, I want to ride out with you guys. I want to be around you guys to research this, this very, very ugly chapter of their life. I learned quickly, you know, with policing, you know, how other than the victims and the community that are just drastically devastated by corrupt policing, it's also good cops are just, are terrorized by it.

53:47And their careers are completely destroyed by it. And their safety on the street is totally upended by it as well. but I think mostly you know for me the key for me was how do you play this guy and not just play him as a monster how do you find you know some sort of and it was interesting man because every single person who knew Wayne it was the first thing I said to him when I first met him everybody who talked to him said you know even if he was in the middle of robbing a drug dealer or you know shaking a guy down making a false arrest no matter what it was if any of his kids needed him at any point, if there was ever an issue with the kids, he would run home immediately.

54:29And it really hit me, how can you engage in such corruption knowing that most likely this is gonna have a bad end because criminality almost always ends bad. How can you be that attuned to your family? And you're really doing one to support your family because you feel like you're not getting paid what you deserve. But that sort of conundrum and dichotomy really was at the crux of who I think he is and why he was so kind of torn apart. But he wasn't just a monster.

54:57Sean Hayes:Right, right, right. Well, yeah, no, he's compliant. Sean, you had a little bit of criminality. Remember that time you guys almost got a ticket? Scotty Devil Park, well, you ran into Chipotle. I remember that story. That was risky. That was really... Wait, bro, when I was in college, I stole a turkey sandwich from a 7-Eleven. Oh, my God. And I got arrested. Are you going to play the turkey sandwich in the movie? We're going to get David Simon.

55:24Will Arnett:Hey, John. I'll read for it. John, you're such a great communicator. That's sick. It's unbelievable. You're such a great communicator and you have such a passion for community and country and it seems like you do not shy away from opportunities for leadership. Have you ever thought about politics at all? Do you see that ever? No, I know. No, no, I think everybody has that reaction anytime anybody ever thinks about it or it's mentioned them. But you look at our, I'm not asking, I don't care what side of the political spectrum you're on, but you look at our current leaders, our current, like you yearn for someone that can communicate like you and that can have the kind of genuine passion for people, for condition and community.

56:16Will Arnett:and we need folks like you if you ever have the time. So you got my vote. Yeah. I vote Chase, Adam. Be careful. Look, I mean, look, I appreciate that. I think the people that know me well, my brothers, I have a brother who's a cancer surgeon, the head of oncology at UCLA and orthopedics. He's like, that guy should be running for, that guy is, yeah. But, you know, I really believe that what we do can really be effective. I just do in my heart. And I think that, you know, for me, I feel most natural and most authentic, honestly, coaching and teaching and doing it in my community on the one-on-one.

57:02And I think, you know, and I think as far, I do really feel that what we do can really provide a service and can create real change and can really, you know, bring human beings together. And that's what I really want to do.

57:18Will Arnett:Yeah. And you do it as well as you can.

57:21Sean Hayes:Yeah. And he does it, like I said, like in We Own the City, like it is a great lesson in a lot of sort of really complex issues in that way. So it's, you are, you are, you are being of service as well, like through, through your art. Making smiles. Yeah, making smiles. And then, I mean, dude, you got so many cool things. He's not getting votes, he's getting smiles. You got so many cool things coming. You've done so many cool things and it's like you're like accelerating, man. Like you're just like, it's awesome. And I'm so psyched that everybody's getting to see you work in so many different ways.

57:47Sean Hayes:You've got, this summer you've got the new Spider-Man, Brand New Days coming out with, with, right, with the Punisher in it. And, and that trailer like broke every record when it came out. The trailer is so sick. Yeah, I like that. And I'm not like a huge superhero movie fan. And even I'm like, fuck, this movie looks dope. And then you're in The Odyssey, right? In Chris Nolan's The Odyssey. Nice. Can you talk a little bit about working with that? Because obviously Chris Nolan's one of the greats.

58:15Will Arnett:Yeah, look at that. You had to slug it out there with that fucking drip, Matt Damon. Oh, God, yeah. Sorry. That fucking guy. We talk about a squeaky wheel. Yeah, that time. God, what a complainer. Well, you made it. You made it, though. Complainer. being man he's a terrible guy look i i i think with with chris you know it's like i i think with you know i think you you get to see sometimes people doing like exactly what they're put on this earth to do and that that's how i feel about nolan i mean i think there's these stories again you know everybody kind of going in oh you have no idea how hard it's going to be and how rigorous and how you know there's no and and for me i'm like let's fucking like i love that's music to my ears, there's nobody who's working harder on that set than he is.

59:00And the directors that I've gotten to work with, you know, like Denis, you know, Scorsese or Polanski or, you know, Derek, I mean, there's so many of them, you know, they're all so enormously different. But the thing that I feel like is uniform among all the greats for me, I don't know if you guys feel this way, But, you know, they've done so much work. They know it so intimately well. But there's really an atmosphere of exploration and freedom once you get to work. And I find no bigger sort of telltale sign of mediocrity than people who it has to be a certain way. And I couldn't believe that within this unbelievable structure and this unbelievable understanding of exactly what he wanted, you know he's still both inspired and not just allowed but demanded you know real freedom and creativity within every moment

59:57Sean Hayes:do you find yourself like working with him and these huge pieces that you're doing I mean it's the Odyssey for Christ's sake and is it within that there's like a spirit of like hey let's find it absolutely absolutely and you know I think in these films you know I did this movie Fury some years back and I did the Pacific which was sort of the next and the band of brothers and you know there's these movies sometimes where there's a group of guys and you're all just sort of like slogging it out together for the thing and you forge these unbelievable relationships you know and there's a group of men in this movie that you know were Odysseus' men were Matt Damon's men and it was this group of actors you know they did eight months in like eight different countries worked so incredibly hard.

1:00:48And, you know, what was cool is, you know, I was only on the movie for a couple months. And, but I got to really be a part of that group for the time that I was there. And that was such a blessing for me. I think that, you know, the best thing that this offers this life is the people that you meet along the way and the relationships that you get. That's what you're going to die with. And I was so honored to be a part of that group of Odysseus' men. and that I felt just a taste of what, you know, the real long, hard slog, the adventure was. And, you know, that's my big taste. That's what I'm most grateful for.

1:01:27That's great.

1:01:27Sean Hayes:And then I mentioned, yeah, and then Spider-Man with Tom Holland, the great Tom Holland. I love Tom. I mean, look, you know, like I got to, you know, I have a Punisher special that I wrote that's coming out next week that I'm really excited about. And then I'm also doing the Punisher in Spider-Man. And, you know, with Tom, because Tom was in the Odyssey as well. You know, I've known Tom since he was 17. We did a movie in Ireland together. I made his Spider-Man audition tape and he made my Punisher audition tape while we were in Ireland. No way. And I got to tell you, man, like this fucking kid, when he was 17 years old and everyone was auditioning for Spider-Man.

1:02:07This dude, he was like, I'm going to get, like, I am Spider-Man. And I was like, look, dude, like mathematically, I just got to be honest. Like, I don't know. But like, he had such unbelievable conviction and belief. And he's so fucking talented. But beyond all of it, like there is not a better guy. Like he was raised so well. I love his family. I love his better half. I'm so proud of the man and the movie star and the human ambassador that he's become. I love his relationship. He's really in love. They really have a great thing. I love them. And it's so cool for me, you know, now, you know, whatever it is, 10 years later to come back.

1:02:52And, you know, I spent the whole, you know, we did two movies back to back with each other. And I love this guy. And I couldn't be happier for him.

1:02:58Sean Hayes:Oh, that's so good. Dude, well, we couldn't be happier for you, man. I mean, you're just such a, you're so great. And like JB was saying, you're such a great communicator. It's just awesome to listen to you talk about stuff.

1:03:11Will Arnett:I'm so happy to have met you here. I know, man. Me too. Your energy is just sick.

1:03:17Sean Hayes:Thanks, guys. You've got so much going on. You've got Spider-Man, brand new day comes July 31st. You've got the Odyssey opens June 17th. And of course, Dog Day Afternoon on Broadway. So congratulations, man. It's just such a joy, yeah.

1:03:31Will Arnett:John, see if you can find a work ethic before we see you again.

1:03:36I was going to ask you for a theater story, but next time, I would love to hear just a tragic theater story. I have tons of them Me too They always make me laugh

1:03:46Sean Hayes:Really hard Well we're gonna see you backstage I'm gonna drag Jason backstage And we're gonna come back Come on guys Come on Get your ass out here Willie

1:03:52Will Arnett:And drag me out of this apartment I'm gonna come in a couple weeks Let's go see it

1:03:56Sean Hayes:The great John Berthold John thanks for joining us dude It's such an honor guys Thank you so much I appreciate you guys Nice to meet you buddy

1:04:03Will Arnett:See you soon

1:04:04Sean Hayes:See you guys Have a wonderful night Thanks for having me guys Yeah yeah yeah

1:04:07Will Arnett:Bye buddy Bye bye this guy yeah i mean you know what you know what i find but he was great will i think i'm gonna put him i'm gonna put him on the list with uh alicia keys lionel richie john bernthal for your for

1:04:23Sean Hayes:favorites my three favorite guests yep he's i agree man he's i should say instead of not favorite

1:04:29Will Arnett:guests favorite interviews right so we don't offend some of the people that are my you know Some of my favorite people. Amongst your favorites. Amongst my favorites. Thank you. Yeah, there you go. You know, though, to be, and I really mean this, and this goes for you guys too, I think you have to be - This is going to be hurtful. No, I think you, no, it's a big compliment. I think you have to be super, super, super fucking smart like he is and like both of you are to be talented, to be that talented. I don't know that dummies are talented. I've met a couple, but - But true, you're right. Do you know what I mean?

1:05:07Will Arnett:Yeah, without the... Yeah, yeah. But I mean, there's all kinds of different talent though too, right? I mean, you know, I think it's clear that he's drawing on his checkered past when he's playing these incredibly complex characters and tapping into stuff he knows.

1:05:26Sean Hayes:JB and Sean, please go watch We Own the Cities on HBO. Yeah, for sure. you're in New York for the next little while, you've got time at night, watch an episode at night. It's so good. I found his portrayal to be astonishing. It's really something. I love that. And you know, all the stuff that he's doing in Ojai, which is, you know, there's a neighboring town just outside of it. When you walk in, it's Ojai, and then when you leave, it's Obai!

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