"Marc Maron"

22:59Oh, I see. So they got to put that in. And that was kind of the most menacing thing. And I remember like the day of, wow. So the day of, there was like at least 15, you know, secret service people. And then we'd set up tables on the deck there. My biggest fear was that house had one toilet. And I'm like, where's he going to go to the bathroom? What if someone needs to go to the bathroom? You know, I got to clean the bathroom, whatever. So we set up a table with listening stations for the White House people, for Brendan, for whoever else needed them. So there was like four or five sets of headphones out there.

23:35And the amazing thing about Obama that he, there was no pre-interview. We didn't have to get any approval of any questions. He was completely confident and lucid, and he knew what he was getting into. But the funny thing was is that the Secret Service is coming in with the dogs, and I got these cats, and I'm like, hey, is there any way you can skip the house? I got cats. I'm going to put them in the bedroom, but you trust me enough to leave the cats in the bedroom? Now, well, they said yes, and they let me off the hook, but I don't know if that's going to get them in trouble, but I think they're probably out of the game anyways.

24:05But anyway, so we're waiting now. We're all in a waiting position. My producer, he wore a sports jacket. He's very proper dude. Yeah, and all the secret service is there, and I'm waiting on outside, and I say, how are we going to know they're coming? And we'll give you a heads up when he's 20 minutes out. So what he was doing, he was flying from Beverly Hills in Air Force Two or whatever, the helicopter, to the Rose Bowl to park there, which is about 10 minutes from my house. So they're like, well, that's better than stopping traffic in the entire fucking city of LA. Right, yeah. Yeah. So they said they'll come in.

24:42To go to Mark's garage. Yeah, yeah, exactly. They cleared the street of all cars. Some neighbors were pissed a couple. Sure. The Republicans were pissed, but the rational people were like, this is great. They're going to line the streets. So they said 20 minutes out, we'll tell you. But then all of a sudden we see the helicopter. It's two Ospreys that kind of fly in front of the helicopter. And we could see him in the sky. I'm like, all right, well, he's close. So I'm just waiting at the gate, and the motorcade pulls up, and there's this flurry of people coming up my driveway. I don't even see Obama.

25:17And then I see him, and he's in the middle of this crowd. He waves like, Mark. And I'm like, Mr. President. He walks up, and he's like, are we going to have a good time? I'm like, I don't know. But then we go into the garage. They only had one Secret Service guy at the door behind me. They had some sort of flak mat. That was another weird item that they actually left and I had to get back to them. That kind of like if there's an attack or something, it kind of pops up and protects him. Wow. But it was all, you know, it was intense. And I just tried to, we had to cover some politics up front because there were things unfolding.

25:51But then it was a fairly standard WTF interview. And the funniest part about it was when he sat down, you know, I said, so you nervous? And he said something like, if I was nervous about this, we'd all be in trouble. He was pretty forthcoming though, yeah? Yeah. Yeah, forthcoming enough. You know, he's a genuine person. What he was was very disarming and very candid seeming and willing and thoughtful. But what's interesting is that it was better to do a personal interview with him because he is kind of wonky. And if you get into politics, it can get a little long. And we only had an hour. Yeah.

26:29So we were able to kind of do it. And then for some reason, he chose, I'm sure, very deliberately to say the N-word on my show. Really? Yeah. In relation to, you know, he was like, you know, racism isn't over just because he can't say the N-word. And he said it. So that got, you know, a flurry of international news. So I had to deal with, you know, news crews in front of my house. But my— Yeah, there aren't enough T-shirts and stickers to handle that. Yeah. But my producer was very calculating in terms of the press we did. He's a very smart guy. We didn't engage with any of them. We just did Chris Hayes and we did Terry Gross, and that was it.

27:08And I don't hear from Obama at all. He's got my number, but I feel weird texting him. But, you know, I mean, look, the fact that you, A, were able to book him says a lot about the spirit and the content of your show. But your ability to get him to do a personal interview and to get him to be forthcoming really speaks to sort of, I think, what makes you so great at what you do. And are you comfortable trying to maybe kind of speak to that and maybe dissect that a little bit? Because, you know, this one-hour conversation, you know, there needed to be at some point a confidence from you about me just freestyling and then having somebody sit down and me just kind of pop back and forth with them and have a conversation as opposed to being an investigative journalist needs to be compelling.

27:59And I need to assume that that's going to be entertaining. What made you think that your hot takes on things and your personal kind of the way in which you can drive a conversation would be something really compelling? Because it is. Yeah, what gave you the right to think you could do this, Mark? But like, when did that happen for you? Just because I know you've spoken in the past about, you know, whatever the right words would be about, you know, your degrees of social comfort and what fuels your standup and your cynicism and stuff, which I share with you. Like a lot of that doesn't lend itself to being a conversationalist.

28:41Do you know what I mean? Well, I think how it evolved is that, you know, I am innately and almost immediately codependent with any personality that sits in front of me. So it's just by virtue of my upbringing, I don't know what. But there was a, the way it sort of started, and this is one of the reasons why, you know, we're winding it down, is that, you know, I'm kind of all in no matter what I do. My standup is provocative and personal and sometimes a little cringy. And just my basic demeanor in terms of what I want to talk about and what I feel comfortable talking about and my need to connect with people is sort of ingrained in me and I'm willing to volunteer a lot of myself.

29:24And I think that the conversations that, in the beginning, I was literally having comedians over to apologize to them. So I, you know, for being a dick or whatever I thought my issues were or whether they were mad at me. So the style unfolded with me trying to get resolution and make amends and this and that. And also I think the way I characterize it is generally the first 100 episodes were me having celebrities over to talk about my problems. So, and that became a way, you know, it's very disarming when you offer yourself. Yeah, when you pull your pants down, everybody feels kind of safe. I'm like, okay, so I guess we're going to be honest.

30:05I love that. Yeah. Oh, when you pull your pants down, everybody feels safe. Yeah. Confident. Yeah. But so that's how it sort of evolved. And it's a need for me because I don't, like my preparation is just getting a broad view of who people are, what they've done. And, you know, it's evolved over time in terms of how I handle certain interviews. If somebody has an amazing, if it's an older person with a large bulk of work, I'll forego the really personal stuff to really talk about the work. But, you know, it all gets mixed in. Well, let me ask you, has it changed the way you, I'll ask all of you guys.

30:47and I don't know if I have an answer. You can say all y 'all. All y 'all. Has it changed? I'll speak for myself first. I think that doing this over the last five years, which is just kind of odd to me. Right, but think about that. We've only done 300 episodes. He's done 1 ,600. No, I know, I know. It's amazing. It's amazing. For sure. But for us, for the last five years, certainly for me, I can only speak for myself, that it has changed a little bit the way that I talk to people. I don't just mean people out in the world like, hey, I'm a fan. I mean just like people in general. This has shaped a little bit how I interact with people to a certain degree.

31:28It's not the driving, but it has become a big part of who I am now, having these conversations and talking in this way for whatever reason, for better or for worse. Well, it's interesting because you guys are all actors, and, you know, part of that craft, from what I understand, you know, about 90 % of it is being present and listening. So whether you were used to doing that in your real life or not, who knows? But I mean, it is a tool that you all have to be present and listen. That's applicable to this. Yeah, and it's a real thing that, you know, because we're all kind of self-centered guys and, you know, you kind of, you want to get your word in, you want to, you know, you're kind of half listening.

32:11But once you start to engage your empathy and your ability to shut the fuck up, you find that it is the foundation of connection. Yeah. And I think that does change. I think that I'm— I'm so afraid to talk now. Keep going. No, you go. No, no. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. No, you go. But for me, it took a lot to do that. And some people still are sort of like, why don't you let the guests talk? And I'm like, because it's my show. So— And also, over years, you know when someone's going into a public narrative. And some of those are deeper than you can imagine. There's ways that public people talk that, you know, there are some times I know like, well, I know this story has been told God knows how many times.

32:58But maybe my listeners haven't heard it. But if it's something that I'm like, well, he's, you know, or she's kind of autopiloting here, I'll interrupt until I can get them off of that and get them into some other place. Did you ever get that thing? Well, first of all, did you ever read comments when you put stuff out on social, like to promote the show? I try not to, but it's kind of addicting. I don't check the numbers. I don't know what the... When Twitter was a viable thing, I would look at those, and that would be upsetting, and it took me years to learn not to engage. I have an email. I used to follow you on Twitter, and you would sometimes engage, and I would see the stuff that you would say.

33:37It's a nightmare. Yeah, it's a nightmare. But would it change, would it alter the way, because I remember, I haven't looked in forever. Yeah, it expanded my self-consciousness, you know, which is just what you need. Yeah, exactly. You take in just random bullshit trolling and you're like, that guy kind of nailed it. I got to be aware of that. Yeah, yeah. Well, we used to have that, exactly. And I used to have that early days, it would be a lot, and people I'm sure still do it. They're like, I wish Arnett would shut the fuck up. Why is he talking or why is he interrupting? and I'm like, by the way, turn it off.

34:08Yeah, turn it off. And it's your show. As opposed to like, you know, honor Hawkwind 2's comments about you. Yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Some guy with four followers in the UK, you're like, oh, geez, I got to reassess my whole life with some idiot sitting at a computer. Exactly. There is a sense for some reason, no matter how old you are, we're older, but, you know, you see one comment, you know, on a social media platform and some part of your brain goes, the entire internet thinks I suck. Yeah, right. And it's like one idiot. Right. But still, if it's a bad morning, you know, you got to fight the urge, you know.

34:47Hey, so Mark, so when you started WTF, you'd obviously had, I used to listen to you on Air America all the time and you'd done a bunch of other things. What made you, take us back to what the landscape was for the medium of podcasting, like what made you think that there was even money there, that there was an avenue there? I'm not a money guy. For better or for worse, I ended up with some, but it's never been my driving motivation. My motivation with comedy and with this has always been like, I want to be seen and heard because I don't know who I am. Yeah. Right. So I am building a sense of self here and I want you all to be involved.

35:29But at the beginning, we had, Brendan and I, Air America collapsed. And, you know, and we, you know, I got pushed out, you know, to L.A. And I did an evening show that no one listened to for a while. But then it just went away. And, you know, like at the same time, I was going through kind of a miserable divorce. And there was an outreach from Air America. They're like, we want to pull you back in to do a streaming show. And this is before streaming. This is like 2007. and seven. No one knew what streaming was. So I'm like, fine. And I said, can you give me this amount of money so I can pay her off, so I can get my life back?

36:06So they gave me this money to pay her off and then they gave me this job at Air America doing a streaming show with Sam Seder that no one could really watch. Sam Seder. Love Sam Seder. Yeah, yeah. I haven't seen him in so long anyway. So it was me and Seder doing this show that crapped out in a year and we knew it would and I was like devastated and heartbroken so I was kind of useless. But we were at the studios at Air America, that version of it, which was a very kind of broken down version. And once our contract was up, they fired us. But we still had like two months on the contract. And being good liberals, they're like, well, you guys can use the offices, which is unheard of when you do a radio job.

36:44They usually don't let them near the mics. Take away his card and get them out. But they didn't. Didn't Jadine Garofalo have a show on Air America as well? Not then. No, that was the original one. But this was when they had Montel Williams and who's that other guy? Lionel, that weirdo. And we were just in this office doing a streaming show. And so we're out of a job. And I said to Brendan, my producer, I said, look, man, there are these podcasts. There's a few of them. Carolla had moved his radio show into the podcast form. But it was really just a radio show. I think who was around? Jimmy Pardo.

37:21Ricky was doing one. like Gervais was like every once in a while. Yeah, yeah, he was around, but there was only about five that had any profile, really, five or six. It was pre-Rogan. And you could only find it on the Apple iPod itself, which is where it gets its name, podcasting, right? Well, that's the thing is that, you know, Apple at that time, I said to Brendan. I didn't know that either. Can you figure out how to do this? And maybe we should do it. And at that time, Apple just wanted anybody with a name to do them and they'd get behind you because it's not a platform as much as it is just, you know, like it's not a server.

37:56It was part of the thing to like actually sell the hardware, the iPod itself. You could only get it on this new thing, this new device that they were learning. That's right. Wow. So they kind of got behind us and we were kind of going. That's the first thing I've ever learned from Jason. Yeah, yeah. Enjoy. Wow. It's all about that, dude. Same with Apple TV. You know, it's like that's just about getting people to get Apple TV ultimately. Buy hardware, yeah. Wow. So we started kind of going in after hours. We had cards. We knew the night tech, and we were bringing guests up the freight elevator.

38:26And it wasn't really the same show at the beginning. But it was all just sort of I needed to keep doing something. I thought my comedy career was nowhere. I certainly wasn't acting. And I didn't know what to do with my life, so it was kind of a Hail Mary. But there was no way to make money. It must have been scary. Was it a scary time, or were you kind of comfortable with your set? in life. Well, I knew that for whatever reason I was good on these mics. I knew that and Brendan knew that as well. That there was a way, who knows why anyone's going to be good on these. But there was a way I kind of approached it that was very sort of immediate and honest and sort of searching.

39:08Did it feel like your last shot, I guess is my question. Sure. I used to make a joke about it that when I moved out to LA and I set the mics up in the garage, I was like, this is the same garage I thought about killing myself in. But I had no expectations. There was no money expectation. It was just me trying to do something. And then, you know, through weird timing and just, you know, trying to focus on building a social media presence, getting people who have that on the show. And then because the celebrity press had become kind of anemic, you know, people were locking in because I was doing their job for them.

39:44So Vulture was there. What was the moment where you looked at Brendan or looked at yourself and said, hey, we have something here? We have some traffic on social media. People are listening to the show. Well, that was starting to happen because Vulture picked up on it pretty early. And then I think when we had – when I went up to the Bay Area to interview Robin Williams, there was a couple of pretty big shows. I mean we had fairly big people social media-wise. But I think the Robin interview because it had never been done before. you know, before that or after. I mean, when he passed, you know, a lot of people were using that pieces of that interview because it was a rare thing and it was hard to get him.

40:25And he was very protected and very insulated in terms of, you know, how we were going to do it. And ultimately, I ended up driving up there. I did a lot of those kind of interviews early on where I talk in the car on the way. But when I got up there, you know, it was just him and his house and an assistant. And I think that people didn't realize when, if Robin was in front of more than two people, or two at least, it was going to be a show. So when it was just one guy and also a comic and also a guy willing to connect and talk, it was a completely different sort of Robin experience. But if there were one other person there, it would have been wrong because he would have just started jumping around and improvising.

41:08So I think that one really was a big interview in terms of, you know, people. Because people were hearing a quality from him that they were not used to. Yeah, never. It was pretty insane, man. Yeah. We'll be right back.

41:29All right, back to the show. And Mark, now that you've done it for so long, and I mean, it's so impressive. I think Jason said 1 ,600 episodes or something like that. And it's become part of your identity and all you've done all these years and now you're wrapping it up. Talk about that. Are you going to miss it? Are you going to think like, well, who am I now and what do I do? I think so. You know, it's a weird thing with the ego in terms of the world we live in and what anyone considers relevance or irrelevance. I was talking to Owen Wilson the other day about it because I'm on that show with him.

42:10And we were talking about stopping the podcast. And he quoted some Salinger quote that was like, you know, I don't have the courage to be just unknown.

42:26Or just an average person. but I think like what's happening is the show has always really been about the arc of my life, on the base level it's been about me and I talk to people and I think at this point because we put, the amount of work we do, Brendan and I it's just always been the two of us and he's a very specific, very gifted audio producer, takes a lot of time to put these shows together twice a week And people don't know that. But sometimes he'll spend hours with an interview, kind of finding a theme, trimming it, maybe moving things around. It's so funny how many people have listened to their interview and are like, God, I really nailed that thing.

43:11It took Brendan four hours. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we feel the same way about Rob and Bennett and the guys, Michael Terry, who work with us. They know the same thing, and they're really good at it. Yeah, we got the best in the biz. Let me answer that real quick, Will. Will, let me just answer Sean real quick. Okay. I apologize. I'm known for interrupting according to the guy from England. But the thing is, is like, yeah, I am nervous about the time, but viewing it as a piece of work as opposed to content and sort of really assessing the need to keep plowing along just because you can was sort of a conversation.

43:51We got a deal with a platform, Acast, and we were in that for years, and it kind of made us the money that I think we deserved after working on it so long. And now that's coming to an end. And we were talking before that about winding it down. And our agreement has always been like, well, I'm gonna go as long as you go. Whoever cries uncle first, then we'll just honor that. But the truth is, there comes a point with me because of the way I do it, where maybe I'd like to have a little bit of a private life. Maybe I'd like to not worry about which pieces and bits of my life or past I need to kind of bring up in order to satisfy what I do and the audience I've created.

44:30That's interesting. Who find a lot of comfort and a lot of, you know, I've helped a lot of people unknowingly, you know, get sober, not commit suicide, deal with authoritarianism. You know, there was, the way I do it, it was very comforting to a very specific audience. So there's part of me that thinks like, well, I owe them. and they kind of live in your head and that gets a little emotionally exhausting. So I think that by viewing it as a amazing piece of work, you know, of 16 years of a thing that never diminished in its quality and always had the arc of me and was always interesting and engaging every episode, that to sort of say, oh, we're done with this part of our lives, it kind of is good for the legacy of the thing as opposed to being one of those people where it's like, is Maren still doing it?

45:20That's crazy. You don't want to be that guy. Right. You know, right, right, right. But do you, like, what I was going to say was, you know when you hear like an athlete retires and they say you're going to miss the game, and what's funny is they always say, you know, I'm going to miss the guys. I'm going to miss being in the locker room. I'm going to miss the people that are working. You know, I don't know anything about your relationship with Brendan other than you've mentioned him a bunch, and he was obviously integral to your show. I mean, that relationship is now going to change. Have you guys talked about that, how that's going to shift?

45:48Well, you know, it's weird. I've been working with him since he was 24, and now he's 44. Wow. And, you know, we met at Air America, and he was an associate producer. So, and the very odd thing about Brendan and I is that he's actually, you know, part of my brain. Like, you know, I do these interviews, and then I send them to him. And my memory of them is of whatever I remember that day, but he spends hours with all of them. So, I rely on him to remember things. And also, he's a very brilliant guy, you know, with politics and film. He's really the smartest guy I know. And he's a great producer because he helps me frame things that I'm thinking, you know, which is usually intuitive.

46:25And then, you know, he can give it depth. But over the years, it's always been a professional relationship. We're not really in each other's lives. He's more in mine because he hears me talk about it all the time. But we have, you know, it's one of the only relationships where the boundaries are healthy. There's a full respect there. We're 50-50 partners, and I don't lean on him for personal stuff unless it's really pressing. And we've never had a fight since I've known him once. And it's just – so that relationship, he'll be there for me if I need him, but he needs a break. But I just think – like what you're saying is true, though.

47:04This show is a – it's a big part of my social life. It's a big part of my spiritual and soul life in terms of engaging with other humans who are creative humans and really talking about life, which I think is important to do in one's life. But I was doing it also as my job and outlet. I am going to miss that. And I imagine that I should really give a heads up to my two friends that it's going to be hard for them for a little while. Do you feel that you're leaving Marc Maron in a better place than where you found him when you started? I hope so because, you know, Marc Maron is going to be 62 years old in September.

47:46And, you know, I just did. It's weird. And I know you guys have got it. You guys seem to have probably a more expansive work ethic than I do. But I don't know. I just did a special, you know, that's going to premiere on HBO August 1st, and it's really probably the best work I've done as a comic. Oh, that's great. I've done this thing for 16 years, and I'm very proud of that as a singular thing. And, you know, I wouldn't say I'm tired, but I'd like to see where I am without these responsibilities a little bit or without them being pressing all the time. I don't know. Yeah, it is. It's an interesting thing.

48:28I mean, yeah, you mentioned that special on HBO and you mentioned Stick with Owen and I love that film you were in that Justin Krizelle directed The Order of the Order. It was just incredible. Amazing. Your career is... Interesting. It's not even ascendant. Ascendant doesn't sound as respectful as I mean it to be, but things are great for you. So probably there's a part of this while you're winding that down, it's almost because you might not even have time for it anymore because like shifting yeah and this and also it seems like uh correct me if i'm wrong like yeah you're kind of allowing yourself to be a little bit um more in a healthy way selfish with your life and you're you're you're saying well i don't want to lend my personal life out anymore and monetize it.

49:22I want to keep my power inside and kind of enjoy being me. And right. I don't know. It sounds like a really healthy place that you're, that's, that's where I'm, I'm trying to get, you know, uh, you know, I don't know if panic will sit in, you know, I'm not great alone. You know, I don't have a wife. I don't have kids, you know, you got cats, Mark. Yeah. I got a few cats and that's, that's a whole other thing, dude. You know, I don't know what I'm going to do with Charlie. But anyway, I got a real fuck of a cat.

49:55The hard thing about cats is at least kids grow up. The cats are like, they're just going to be that. There's no teaching it new things or anything. But yeah, I think that's true, Jason. I think that is ultimately what is happening. And as you get older, you give less fucks about certain things. And the acting and that kind of stuff, the way I see it is that I do, I've been able to do everything I wanted to do only because I did this one thing on my own that got me out in the world. And I've somehow managed to remain kind of under the radar. I don't have the weight of celebrity on me. I'm kind of chipping away.

50:38But you're on top of the radar with those that you, I would imagine, respect, admire the audience you've actually been shooting for, you have. And that's, that I think is really admirable. Yeah. I mean, like I try not to, like, I know, I know, I kind of know exactly who I am and what my, not so much shortcomings are, but there is an element, like, cause I have friends who are big, big, you know, stars in comedy or whatever. And there's always that little party. It's like, fuck, why am I not playing arenas? And it's just sort of like, dude, could you imagine the weirdness of doing what you do in an arena?

51:15I mean, I do a joke about it. I say, like, I think I could play one arena centrally located in the country somewhere and I could bus my fans in. You know, like, you know, buses for Marin leaving out of Whole Foods parking lots in these cities. That's so funny. But so I do know who I am and I do know the reason I am who I am has something to do with some fears. But maybe those are good. Maybe those are self-protecting, you know? Yeah. So now the question is, what's day to day? Like what do you want to do? Like if you had your druthers, if it was like, hey, man, which you kind of do, what's the deal?

51:56Is it wake up? Well, I'd like to try to figure out how to enjoy myself. I mean, you guys seem to do it. So what's the path to that? Are you going to like learn how to, are you going to paint? Are you going to learn how to surf? Well, look, I do a lot of things. You've got guitars. I've been playing guitar with people. I'm playing, you know, I get together and sometimes I do music shows. I've found the courage to sing in front of people and that's sort of daunting and interesting. But you know what I really like to learn how to do, and I don't know how to do it. You know, like when I act, you know, I think I do okay with it.

52:27You do, you're great. Well, that's nice. You are good. And I just did a feature, an indie feature, where I'm the lead, and I kind of manned up and pulled that off. We'll see if it gets out anywhere. Nice. But there's this thing where— Wait, is that the one with Judy Greer? She's in it. Yeah, yeah. Lily Gladstone's in it. Sharon Stone. Awesome. Alan Ruck. Oh, awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Michael McKean. That's called In Memoriam? Yeah, dude. It's funny. And I watched a final cut. Let me ask you this. Two questions about acting since we're here. when you watch yourself are you always sort of like ah fuck why did I you know I mean you can watch the whole movie but some part of you is really focused on like why did I do that with my eye I will say that the fact that you're doing that that you're watching and you're being honest with yourself that will make you an incredible actor I've learned so much from seeing how bad I am on things and adjusting for the next job.

53:31But don't people say you're good though? Aren't they telling you that it's good? Yeah, but you know. It doesn't matter what they say. But are we right? Yes, I'm saying you need to, I think you need to watch yourself. And there's so many talented actors that I work with that never watch themselves because they're afraid that they're bad, yet they're so good. And I keep saying, you're denying yourself like this great treat. But Jason, I think that you have a unique ability. I really mean this. And I don't know if it's because you've been doing it since you were a little kid, so it's just so, like, ingrained into who you are.

54:01But you have a really good ability to separate and be objective. You really, really do. It's a great quality. Yeah. And so you're able to go and look at stuff, and now also because you have that, because you direct. so your ability to be objective about your place in the story understanding where you are is I think unique I don't think everybody has that I know just thinking about what Jason does with the directing I'm getting anxiety thinking about his career so like I can't even fucking wrap my brain around it you know like but here's the question that is kind of eating at me it's like I was sitting with Judy at some junket for stick because she's got a part in that too.

54:51Oh, wow. And she said to me, she said, you know, the way you handled that character was very unique because most people would have went broad with it. And I said to her, I said, I don't think I know how to go broad. And she goes, I don't think you do either. So some part of my brain is like, I got to figure out how to get broad. You know, how do I become a broad comic actor? I don't have it in me. It's so funny. By the way, I was just thinking, I saw a video on social media this morning. Sean, I don't know who, I think the play posted it of you just playing piano Oh yeah, I saw that too. within the last couple days.

55:23Yeah, the Gershwin thing. Yeah, the Gershwin thing. And Sean's about to, he's in London, he's about to do his show on the West End, Goodnight Oscar. At the Tabasco or the barbecue? At the barbecue, sorry. And you're, Sean, and you're just sitting down, you're playing, you're not playing in front of anybody and you just start playing and honest to God, and not to embarrass you, I thought, this fucking guy is so fucking talented. Yeah. No, it's true. And I thought like, I couldn't do that if you gave me a million tries. Yeah, you could. And you don't know. In 10 years. And I was just thinking like, God damn it.

55:59Like, what am I doing? I'm fixing my bike in the garage. I'm going to order a piano on Amazon right now. I literally went to get a new wrench at the hardware store and then rode back. And couldn't figure out how to use it. And was trying to get them to raise my handlebars. Yeah, for a half hour before you called the guy to fix it, right? No. I did it. I got the scars to bring. I did it wrong. And then my seat kept going down. Anyway, and Sean's there playing, making beautiful art. And I was like, oh, God damn it. You know? That's really nice. I think we all have gifts and we're all lucky enough to be able to share them.

56:31Yeah, it is pretty great, Mark. You know, like you, whatever your innate talent is, you have found a lane for it, a platform for it. You know, a place to apply it and doing such good for so many that listen to you. I'm very happy for you that you are deciding to, you know, spend a little of that on yourself and reinvesting in, you know. And leave on your terms. And I reject the idea just before. I also reject the idea. And I know you say it because it's kind of a funny one line like, you know, that people thought, well, if Mark can do it, I can do it. That's not true at all. I think the opposite is true.

57:12I think that you inspired people. Oh, that's nice. It's true. and you grew this medium and so that dum-dums like us could do it. And that your tone and your quality and your honesty and your vulnerability was a viable format. But I think the other thing I want to know is because comedy, look, I watched my new special and I like it. I have complete control out of that craft and it's the best work I've done. I know that. That's great. And with this thing, but with comedy and with podcasting, it's all driven improvisationally. It's all going to create itself in real time. And with acting, that's different.

57:51So then all of a sudden you got a script and you make choices and all that stuff. But I don't know really where none of my imagination goes into creating fiction or creating things outside of myself. Everything I do is impulsive and comes from the need to connect. So I'm kind of curious, do I have creativity that is more disciplined that I can apply in another way. That's the big mystery. Can I apply my talents to something that isn't essentially Mark? Have you ever sat down and written? Yeah, I write every week. I don't love writing. It's exhausting. But I write a thing every week, but reflections that are sort of poetic, and I put that out into the world, and I've done the writing.

58:34But my comedy is sort of formed on stage and in real time until it sort of sets, and then I leave room for new things to happen. for like I did the special and I usually start with like an hour and 45 minutes that I tour with for a year and a half. And then three weeks before I got to shoot, I got to get it down to like 70 minutes and figure out what the callbacks are. And then I leave a little open space for things to drop in the days before or even that night. So it keeps it alive. And, you know, but I'm very confident in that craft and I'm very confident in this talking on the mic thing. But like with acting or I, you know, I've set in motion, I'm going to direct a film based on my buddy Sam Lipsight's book.

59:15And hopefully that'll happen, you know, but that's a little daunting and scary. But I guess I'm not afraid to take the chances. No, it sounds like, of course you've got creativity. What are you talking about? You're doing it all. Yeah, in answer to what I think your question is about the application of what you heretofore have been doing, which is basically freestyling, improvising. you are coming first and then the words follow, right? That's your writing for standup, you're freestyling on the microphone, your podcast. How do you apply that same level of accuracy, authenticity into something that is, by its own definition, pre-written, right?

59:56A movie, a script. Yeah, or outside of myself, yeah. Yeah, how do you find that level of Marc Maron in acting? I will say that you are allowed when you take on a character to make that character simply just another part of who Marc Maron is. You know, there are goalposts. You're far right, far left of who Marc Maron is. And then you just find whatever version that character is closest to you inside of those goalposts. So you're still being Marc Maron. It's just the words are written beforehand and you've got to find the version of you that fits those words. And so you're still kind of, you're still exhibiting who you are and should still be able to find some enjoyment from that.

1:00:40Right, yeah, I get that part where you kind of turn things off or turn things on within you. I get that with the acting. My question is, like, can I do something, like, if I direct, you know, I don't have a vocabulary for that. I don't have a style. So that's completely outside of me, and I'm just going to have to figure out what that is. Can I, could I - You don't need to do that on the first one. Just exercise taste and just sit there and watch the results of other people's work and say yes to this, no to that, little more of this, little more of that. It is the one person on the set that doesn't have a job.

1:01:13So you don't really actually need to do anything. I'm not suggesting that's the right way to be a director, but I've worked with a million that work that way. It's very common. So you need not be overwhelmed with, I got to do a bunch of shit. Walk before you run and just sit there and just be the arbiter of taste, you know? Right. Okay. I will do that. Yeah. You can do that. You've got great taste. Fuck, I've learned a lot from Jason today. Yeah, I'm pushing on. It's amazing. You've got to be starved. Who's this guy? I'm starting my own podcast next week I wanted to tell you guys about. I'm listening to it.

1:01:45Are you kidding me? I can't wait. Holy shit. It took us 300 episodes to get through to you. I've arrived. Wait, if it wasn't for Mark, you know what I mean? How about this? This is the first interview, a first guest I've ever had that I didn't get to one single question. Yeah. And we're already six minutes over one hour. So that is a testament to you, Mr. Marc Maron, knowing the gift of gab, knowing what you're doing, keeping the conversation going. Can I share one story though for Sean? Please. Yes, please. Wait, Sean, are you still here? Yep. There he is. I took a bathroom break. I'm back. Well, he talked about the doctor that did the full examination for the sore throat.

1:02:28I went into one of my old guy physicals. I guess it was probably last year. And now for the prostate test, they only do the blood test. The finger's gone? Right. Well, I didn't know that. So the guy said, I said, are we going to do the finger thing? Not for me. And then he goes, he says, no, no, we don't do that anymore. They do it with the blood. I'm like, well, is that effective? I mean, you find that the results, he's like, yeah, no, we just do the blood test. He says, I can do the other thing if you want. I'm like, well, I would feel better. That was 50 bucks extra. I would feel better if you did.

1:03:08So I requested a finger bang from the doctor. Wow. And he did that. He did. And my diagnosis is it's not clear. He needed to go back in. You said, why don't you go ahead and toss a ring on, too, before you get in there. He said he'd like to see you again next week. Yeah, yeah. He's here now. You're a little bit of a hypochondriac, though, like I am a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I grew up with a doctor father, so it was a real way to get attention. Like, you know, I think I have cancer. So, but yeah, I've got, you know, I got a handle on it. You know, it doesn't happen as much. And when it does happen, it runs pretty deep.

1:03:51Like, you know, I can usually say like, just wait a couple of days. It'll probably go away, that kind of stuff. But if I really lock into, I think I have cancer, I'll go all the way through it and I'll sit in my bed and just sweat, you know. Oh man, me too. Anticipating the nothingness. That's called intelligence and being creative. The ability to sort of like create these scenarios in your brain. That's how I use my imagination. Just all driven by panic and fear. I'd really like to free it up. You know who doesn't have panic? Dummies. Yeah. You know? It takes a lot of intelligence to create this fucking doomsday scenario.

1:04:23I know, but don't they seem a little more happier than we are? They do. Well, that's blissful ignorance. When they're not talking about QAnon. The happiness is not as profound. How about that? Okay, well, that's a projection, but hold on to it. Mark, we love you and we thank you. Oh, we sure do. Incredible. You're the greatest. Thanks, guys. I really appreciate it, and you guys are doing great. Thank you, man. Well, thank you. You please keep on jamming. and will you consider at least maybe doing a special once a year or something? Oh, yeah. And I don't mean the incredible specials on, yeah, yeah, come back with WTF and give people updates.

1:05:01Well, I have to figure out, like, I think there's other ways. You know, maybe it's the podcast version of The Letterman Show. You know what I mean? Sure. Where he does, like, six a year or something. I could do that, but then you're kind of like, who's, you know, my producer, and I don't really do much without him, but I think there is a world where, you know, I could at least, you know, maybe after a little time off, you know, get on the mic, you know, once a week just to talk without people. That might happen. I don't know. We want it. We need it. Please do it. Thanks, buddy. Yeah. All right.

1:05:32Okay, fellas. All right. Best of luck to you, my friend. Thanks for doing this. Thanks, Mark. Take care, you guys. Good luck with the show, Sean. Break a leg. Thank you, pal. Thank you. Appreciate it. Bye. Bye, Mark. Boy, that Mark Maron. I mean, like, you know, so Willie, Sean, unfortunately, you never did a show, but Willie, doesn't it sort of, you just sit there, you listen to him and he just kind of rocks you into this place of like, oh, I just want to tell you everything about me. Yeah. You know, he's almost like a therapist, you know? Yeah, but without being solicitous, he's just, he just kind of goes first and there's just like this nice quality to him.

1:06:05He just starts talking and you're just having a conversation, you forget that you're doing it and all of a sudden you're telling him stuff that you haven't ever talked about in that way before. Yeah, it's a really, talk about gifts though, So that's his gift. It was very nice of you to say that, Willie, but we all really do have gifts. And his gift is to just be able to constantly keep a conversation going, be interesting, never not be curious. He's always curious about every single person. And it's really an intelligent conversation. You get sucked in. Yeah, I'm glad that at least he will always have his stand-up to sort of just be.

1:06:42I'm excited for his new stand-up special. That's going to be great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that is, he mentioned it earlier, but just to make sure, it's called Panicked, and it's going to be on HBO August 1st. And then it'll stream on the Max after that. But I'm such a big fan of his. Yeah, same here. He's always been such a good dude. And I figured, you know, Sean, you mentioned the gifts, and, you know, he has that, and Jason, we talked about your gifts, and Sean, and you have your gifts, and I don't know. I wasn't given any gifts, but you know what? Hopefully one day I'll be in a position where we'll be able to buy one.

1:07:17That was pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. Bye. Bye. Smart. Less.

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