"Michael Stipe"

24:57He knew. I didn't know. But I also love your candor, because you know that thing where people go like, they'll reference like a song or like a film or a book or something, and they just go, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. And you're like, no, you don't fucking know. And I love that you were just like, I didn't know the Beatles. I didn't listen to them in that way. And I think a lot of people have revisionist history when they talk about their own story. I don't even know how to spell it or why they were called. Sean just found out why the Beatles were called the Beatles. What was that, Sean? Spelled B-E-A.

25:28Yeah, I thought it was. I didn't know it was like the beat. They're making a beat. I thought it was. That's a funny thing to not know. That's why it is a funny thing to not know. We got pretty shocked in hanging out with this guy, Michael. It's a really funny thing to not know. Yeah, and he thought Kennedy was assassinated in D.C. It's a fountain, really. He did, Michael. We went on this tour and we went and we walked, where were you? Drove by like the Washington Monument or something, JB? Yeah, and he said, huh, isn't this just about where Ken is? He's looking over both shoulders. Kennedy was assassinating right around here.

26:00And Jason goes, no, that was in Dallas, you fucking idiot. Stupid. Welcome to America. Hey, Michael. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead, Dingo. No, no, you go, Jay. No, Sean, it's your turn because I know we're all. Yeah, I can't wait for this. Michael, hi, I'm Sean and I'm a huge fan of yours. you know when i was uh in high school you basically were one of the you know we had depeche mode on as failing out of high school and high school yeah 88 was the first time i heard uh oh my god the album so embarrassed in 1988 the album that came out in 88 it would be green probably green right green i know every song every every word and so um anyway so you along with depeche mode and all these but like tori amos and 10 000 maniacs and all these other groups that I absolutely loved.

26:44I was a music major, so I tried to listen to as much music as possible. And you were part of my defining young childhood, young adulthood. You were a major in the music army. Yeah, it's a big deal to meet you, and you mean a lot to me. So that said, I have just a couple things I want to say. That said, I have some notes. Yeah. One is I sat right next to you with our friend Jimmy Burroughs in a play that Woody Harrelson was starring in. And I sat right next to you. And I don't think you knew who I was or whatever. And you had glitter on your face. And I thought, he's the coolest guy in the world.

27:19And I was so nervous. I never said hello. So I'm glad I'm saying hello now. And I was like, Jimmy, I said to Jimmy, I was like, that's fucking Michael Stipe sitting right next to me. I was freaking out. But anyway, and then talking about horror. Where, where, tell me, I always need to know plays first. Where, what city was that in? New York City on Broadway. Woody Harrelson was starring. What play was it? I don't remember the name. It was years and years and years ago. I go into blackout with like weddings, funerals, and plays. Afterwards, I'm like, I don't know. I think I was there. Jason wakes up in a blackout.

27:48Jason can't remember anything. We can talk about something we did last year and Jason will go, I was there? Yeah, exactly. But anyway, so the other thing was harmonies, what Will was saying. You know, on Something is Out of Reach, that 10 ,000 Maniacs song that you sang back up on, that's when I was I was on the entertainment committee in college we'd get all the bands I tried so hard to get REM to come but we got 10 ,000 Maniacs to come and I was practicing piano in the rehearsal room where there's like 10 pianos because I was a piano major and Natalie Merchant is right across from me playing at college I'm like oh my god because she was performing and I thought I dreamed that Michael Stipe was going to come on stage and sing harmony to that thing but my last thing I wanted to say but you didn't show up But the last thing I wanted to say was I was dating this guy and losing my religion.

28:38You know, the chorus. Oh, God, how does it go? I'm too nervous. I think I thought it. Yeah. There isn't a chorus. There's not a chorus. I think I thought I saw you try. Yeah, I think I saw. I think. So I was dating this guy and we're trying to sing your harmonies, right? And I think I saw you try to try. Whatever. And he couldn't do it. I stopped dating him. That'll do it. Oh, good. Good move. Good move. Way to go. I was like, what are you talking about? How could you not? It's just a third. It's just third. You sound like you had a pretty wired though. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

29:12Not a shred of melody. Michael, am I right in remembering that you dipped your toe in film producing for a period there in the 90s or early 2000s? 25 years. Yeah? I was a film producer for 25 years. Really? Yeah, I kind of stopped. did you love it and then didn't love it or always hated it or missed it loved it the whole time I loved working with people in the film industry, all the creative people but all the money people drove me up the fucking wall and it's just so fraught with compromise with music and with art and with photography and with all the things that I really kind of express for myself, I'm able to really be as wrong as I want to be and completely uncompromised with film and TV, it's always a compromise.

30:03You guys know that much more than I do. But that said, I worked with some incredible people. I made some incredible lifelong friendships. And Woody Harrelson being one of them, we're very, very close. He and Laura are like the dearest people to me. And Natalie, actually, speaking of Natalie, I saw her perform recently in Chautauqua, New York, with a symphony. Oh, my God. I'm making a stand of hers, too. She's incredible. Me, yeah. But yeah, I did, I produced Being John Malkovich. Yeah. I'm really proud of that. I didn't know that. That's incredible. I executive produced Velvet Goldmine with Todd Haynes.

30:40Do you talk to Todd or to Spike at all anymore? I talk to Spike all the time. We used to live across the street from each other. Oh, yeah? I love Spike. He's one of the funniest dudes. I met him when he was a teenager through Jane Pratt, actually. Oh, my God. She was doing a magazine called Sassy, and they had a skateboard boy version of Sassy and Spike was one of the two guys that were a part of that. So he was a kid when I met him. I was also a kid, but anyway. Such a filmmaker. Yeah, we kind of grew up together and he's amazing. And then my best friend, Jim McKay, that's kind of more the Hollywood part of my film production was much more truncated than the work that I did out of New York, which was more independent film.

31:25Did you ever think about maybe scoring a film? Yeah, actually, the band scored a film called Man on the Moon with Milos Forman. Oh, right. Oh, sure. Based on a song that we wrote called Man on the Moon, which was about Andy Kaufman, the comedian. And it kind of brought Andy back into, as he had died and had kind of been forgotten. And this friend of ours brought some VHS tapes to a studio in Seattle. And we were there working. and I watched the tapes and then there was this piece of music that the band loved, but I couldn't find it, couldn't find it, couldn't find it. And I went on a long walk the last day that we were in the studio and I wrote Man on the Moon walking around the blocks of downtown Seattle and recorded it that night and we gave it to the record company the next day and that was that.

32:11No, no way. It's crazy. I mean, that really happened. That's super nuts. That's magic. That is crazy. I love hearing those stories when bands, I remember the story of like reading somewhere that Paul Weller talks about writing That's Entertainment in 10 minutes coming home from the pub and I'm like you know one of the jam's great songs and being like wow that's amazing or like you writing Man on the Moon a song that everybody knows a massive hit that was so like you know and that you wrote it walking around and gave it to the record company the next day but then someone someone heard the song fell in love with Andy Kaufman all over again wrote a script and it got into Milos his hands and he's you know he's one of my heroes yeah and he he put together a great cast and and and did a great made a great film i think but the band wound up scoring that yeah i want to ask you about thomas uh if you don't mind and we don't have to if you don't but just being in a relation oh yeah my boyfriend yeah i just just being in a relationship with another um artist uh will thought i was going to say with another man but uh with another artist um a different man.

33:18What is that like? Because you're both photographers. Obviously, he's very well respected. He's much better than I am. Tell Tracy and me who Thomas is. Thomas is Thomas. He's French, Thomas Dozel. And he's an artist who works mostly in photography. And he's a master portraitist. So he puts me to shame. And so do you guys, what are the heated discussions like? Like, do you guys get into it about, you know? Well, there's a story here. Well, I mean, it's, you know, it's an ongoing saga, but, you know, both of us love art. And as I said, he's French. And so his, you know, just, he has such a different perspective on art and everything growing up in France and growing up the way that he did.

34:07And so, yeah, we really get into it, but it's absolutely supportive, you know. Yeah. But he has opinions, that's for sure. As do I. I mean, we have the type of relationship where we're able to say really difficult things about everything. But we're speaking here about work. We're able to say, you know what, that's not, you know, you could do better. Or try again. Do both of you work with film or with digital photography? He works with mostly film for the serious work that he's doing. I mean, we're in our first show together. Actually, not our first show together, but we're in a show together that's opening in Cincinnati in October.

34:47It's a group show about collage. And just this morning before we got on the phone, he sent me the two images that he's putting up. It's two nudes. It's a woman named Rihanna Kubik and a guy named Jesper Joost. Both very, very different, both working in art. But they're this incredible, like, I wish you could see them, but there are these really, really stunning portraits. So he's a great portraitist along the lines of Peter Hujar or gosh, I can't even think of who else, maybe Richard Avedon. And I'm more of like a snapshot guy. Like I snap pictures as a diary and sometimes I'll see something that catches my eye.

35:29I see things differently than regular people and so I'm able to kind of present a different perspective. But what he does is profoundly really thoughtful. we'll be right back all right back to the show I want to say two things one of the things I like that you kind of talked about was in kind of getting into things and whether it's about work or in your personal relationship I've just recently in the last week been talking with a friend of mine about this concept this idea that when a relationship if you will between two people is strong enough that it can sustain between each other being able to feel free to do what they need to do and express themselves in a way that's okay.

36:14And when, when it can support that, there's something really magical about that. When we can be comfortable enough to have differing opinions on things, because I think so often, I don't know, I don't know about you guys, but I, I've been in places before in relationships where it wasn't strong enough. And so that when you do kind of strike out and have a differing opinion, it kind of falls apart. There's something really great about when it is strong in that way. Yeah. Well, luckily, politically, we're aligned, and that makes dinner conversation much easier. We've been together a quarter of a century, so we've worked out the kinks.

36:49I mean, there's not a place where... I mean, I think with any... You guys know this. I'm a bit further down the Methuselah trail than you are, but by about 10 years, I think. But, you know, you, you, you, you, communication is everything. And if you, if you can't, if you can't, if you don't have that, then, then you're just kind of screwed, you know? Yeah. Okay. Wait here, Michael, you like times and dates. I ran, I didn't run into you. I saw you once. It was a great, I was 24 and I was on seventh Avenue. None of it exists anymore, but I was on seventh Avenue and 20, I lived at between seventh and eighth on 21st street in Chelsea for years.

37:28Okay. And I saw you at this like weird restaurant. I'm like, what the fuck is Michael Stipe doing there? And you were having coffee outside at this really, anyway, it was a great sighting. And I remember just walking by trying to be cool and going around the corner and saying to my friend, I'm like, holy fuck. Yeah, yeah. On 21st? I can't picture. You were on 7th Avenue. It was 1994. On 7th, ah, okay. There's no way you remember it. But it was like a, for me, a great like, you know, just trying to, you know those like trying to walk cool and being like, does my walk look stupid on my walk? How do you walk?

37:59How does somebody walk normally? Just walk normally. Walk like a human person. You know what I mean? That's sweet. Wait, so Michael, I have a question. How old were you when Murmur came out? 22, I think, or 21. 22. 21, which means you started writing, like you said. 23. Wait, I think, yeah, no. I was born January 4th, 1960, so every decade I'm four days behind. so I'm now 63 it's really interesting I was 13 so you're 20 I think it came out in yeah 23 so you're 23 meaning like you said you started writing in high school when you were a teenager and so my question is because I'm always fascinated by people like you who how did you get in touch with your emotional side at such a young age such that you could feel fearless about expressing yourself through music Like most teenagers have angst and are naturally emotional anyway, but to feel safe enough to write them down and then sing is a whole other level.

39:03How did you achieve that? Wow, that's such a good question. Maybe unanswerable. I mean, well, I love what you said earlier, Will, about Radio for Europe, because that was, it was, you know, it was fear. I mean, everything was an ambition and audacity. It was all the A words except for F, which is the fear word. but we grew up in public. We didn't know what we were doing. Peter couldn't play guitar. I didn't know. It didn't occur to me that to be the singer in a band I had to write words and then sing them. I mean, I was like, yeah, this is great, but it's a lot of work. The Ramones emerged intact.

39:42They were like this remarkable thing that just the second you saw them or heard them, they had a sound, they had a look, they had names, they had an attitude, They had all the photography down. They were locked from the first moment we ever saw them. REM grew up in public, and so it took me a couple of... I mean, people don't believe this, but I repeat it over and over again. We were working on our second album before I realized that the bass guitar was the one that made the low sounds. I didn't know the difference between a bass and a guitar. The bass has four strings on it, so that's what...

40:19So you really didn't know anything. That's how I knew that was the bass. It had four strings. But you knew you could sing. No, I didn't. I only figured out in, like, it was the second to last record that we made. Well, how did you find your way into a band? How did you start the band? Am I right, was Peter Buck, one of you was working at a record store? Peter was, yeah. He was working at a record store and used to come in and buy Patti Smith records or something? You're never going to believe this, but that record store is still there. It's in Athens, Georgia. And you'll never believe who's going to be there in early November.

40:51Who's that? Mickey Dolenz from The Monkees. No way. Has covered four R.E.M. songs and released them on an EP. And they are fucking fantastic. And he covered one of the songs that we only wrote because it's called Shining Happy People. It's very fruity. I love that. With B-52's Kate. I love that song. With Kate Pearson, yeah. I love Kate Pearson. But, you know, that was us working out our, like, you know, like, super pop kind of bubblegum music. It's because of the Monkees. Was that on Green? Oh, God, you're asking the wrong person. I know. It was on one of those records around that time. Yeah, if we could find somebody in the band.

41:27I love how much you don't know your own discography. He has what we call turn the page. It's fucking rad. I think it's so rad. And you know what else is rad? You mentioned the runs out of look and everything. You guys had no look, almost by choice. It seemed very like there's no artifice, no nothing. We're going to plug these instruments in, and we're just going to sing and play music that sounds good and it's challenging, but it's not alienating. By the way, JB, think about this. Especially in a time, Michael, you can attest to this, where MTV was exploding and a lot of music was about how your video played.

42:09It wasn't necessarily about your music. And you guys were all about the music. To me, music was like one of the one places that you could go and not have someone tell you what to think about and not tell someone. Like when I hear music, this is also, I get a lot of stick for this, but it's really what happens. When I hear good music, not bad music, when I hear good music, I see a landscape and I see a vista. And for me, it's a very visual thing. And when I write, I'm like putting people in that landscape. It's like, that makes sense to me. I hear, I see when I hear. So for MTV to come along and suddenly you're looking at like whoever, you know.

42:49Chrissy Hynde and the Pretenders, a version of what you're supposed to see when you hear this song. It really robbed me of something super important as a music fan. So what changed your mind? Well, Sinead O 'Connor, it was when I saw Nothing Compares to You that I started lip syncing. And the first song, the first video that I lip synced to is Losing My Religion, which was the biggest hit that we had ever had. It was the song of the summer of whatever year that was. And I'm so proud of that song, and I love the song to this day. I love that song, too. But it was watching her performance that I realized, okay, this is complete artifice, but we all know that it's artifice, and you can actually be moved emotionally by watching this person perform this song, even though I know she's lip syncing.

43:36Who are your bands? I mean, you mentioned the Monkees, et cetera, but other than Patti Smith, who you also mentioned, And when you were 18 or when you were 25, who were the bands that you still, like I have like a sort of like rotating list of like 10 bands that I always go back to, of which REM is one that's always on my playlist. And it's always, it's you guys and it's the Smiths and it's Pavement and it's like, that's where I kind of live. You have good taste. Well, thank you. I mean, I don't know. I just like music. Not shirts. We won't talk about shirts. Yeah, like when you were bopping around the Grammys and the MTV Awards and all that stuff.

44:15Which bands at that time were you kind of really excited to be bumping shoulders with? I'll tell you the truth. I was really excited to be meeting the actors. Really? Yeah, I'm a real fanboy in that regard. So, like, I scared the life out of Dennis Hopper at one point. And I didn't mean to. I was just so excited and so jacked on adrenaline. And there he was. And I was like, ah, you're amazing. And I scared him. I came up behind him, you know. And he completely, like, he looked at me with that look of, like, Frank. You know, it was so scary. I was like, ah, I scared Dennis Hopper. Yeah, he called security on me.

44:48Frank from Blue Velvet. Yeah, he called security on me.

44:54I, you know, I loved Elton John as, like, when I was, like, a protozoa, you know, I was maybe 13 when Benny and the Jets came out. And that song to me, I was like, what the actual fuck is going on? What is it? Like I couldn't, I knew even then, like I didn't know the first thing about pop music or radio music or nothing, but I was like, this is something I've never heard before. And the same thing happened when I heard Patti Smith. And then Patti, you know, I knew about the CBGB scene in New York in the mid 70s and all the bands that were playing there. So when each of them released a record, I was the first guy in line to buy it.

45:31So television, the Ramones, the Talking Heads, Blondie, and then the Dead Boys and all these other people started coming, X from Los Angeles, a place that we won't talk about. And I'm kidding. I don't despise LA. I just don't know who I am there. It's a real problem. We're going to help you find yourself here. You're going to come out here soon. I'm free on the 9th, so let's have dinner. We're going to have dinner. Nice. And we're going to change the way that you look at Los Angeles. First, you're about to meet the most dynamic people you've ever met. and they're all here on your screen and they're all here on your screen it's going to be incredible for you to meet us in person it's going to be so incredible my god what will I wear to watch how little Jason eats and how much Sean eats will blow you away we cancel each other out and we're both the same weight I don't know how it works

46:30what do you do because we always what is the thing that you do that is, I don't know. It would be surprising to us. Yeah, that you spend time doing. Yeah, to me, you are the embodiment of sophistication. What is the opposite of that? You're looking at it, buddy. Who are you talking to? I'm the least sophisticated person you know, you've ever met. But you're creating a lot of art. You've created art in so many different mediums now. And so for guys like us, I'm in awe of how you do that. And it's really inspirational, to be honest. This is not false humility. I really mean, like, I'm really... No, yeah, of course.

47:09It means so much to me. But I'm also saying it because, like, so what is the thing, like, as Jason said, that we'd be surprised to know that you do that's... That a simpleton might do, you know? I became a really good cook through COVID. I think we all did. I didn't bake bread. Good for you. I play solitaire a lot. Solitaire, there you go. Solitaire, there it is. But what about cooking? What's your go-to? I'm vegan default, so most of what I make is vegan. But then, you know, I'll see a piece of turkey bacon and just shove it in my face. And I'm not proud of that, but it does happen. I'll shove that in my face.

47:49I don't know. Michael, I do want to ask you just really quickly, not because I just want a quick answer, but just because we haven't gotten to it yet and I don't want to take any more of your time. But you, one of the great things that you're also known for throughout all this time, and you've used your music to advance a lot of causes and things that you believe in. And your activism is, it was just such an early part of your trajectory as a person through the world. And has that continued? I imagine that's continued. And where is it taking you now? What are the things that you're passionate about in your activism?

48:28I try to encourage and support, you know, younger generations and the work that they're doing. I thought that my generation, which was, I'm really just, I think I'm about 10 years older than each of you guys. Yeah, you're exactly 10 years older than me. I really thought that my generation was going to be, you know, I took a course when I was in seventh grade, I believe. I remember the teacher was Miss Enoch, E-N-O-C-H. Sure. And the entire year's course was about environmental science. And it was about pollutants and energy sources and how my generation was going to be the one to lift us out of this darkness and to move forward into this progressive future where we're not dependent on oil or gasoline.

49:11And the air is clean and the oceans are, you know, the plastic situation that we have now never existed in whatever it was, 1971. And I really believe that. I mean, I'm that naive, you know, but moving forward, you know, there is that energy that youth has and audacity to actually pick something up and place it somewhere else. We find ourselves faced with much more than environmental disasters right at the top of the list. But there are so many things as Americans that we have. You know, I just think we're like, we have really shitty karma as a country. And that has to be addressed in some way.

49:51And we're seeing that happen in real life right now. I'm very concerned for the future. But that said, I'm an incredible optimist. And so, yeah, there's, I mean, I don't know what, it's quite scattershot. But I've been and the band were and continue to be actually as a non. We're no longer together for about 11 years. But we continue to be a business and we support and encourage as much progressive activism as we can. Think about it, man. I mean, if there's one thing I want to say to this younger new generation is the only place you can start is a feather hits the ground before its weight can leave the air.

50:35That's right. And when you can fucking understand that, we can solve fucking everything. Michael Stipe, we have absolutely monopolized way too much of your time. Yes, I think we're out of time. Oh, Sean, very nice. Very good one, Sean. Guys, that's why I'm here. What an absolute honor and thrill to meet you. Huge honor. Again, just been such a fan of yours for so long. So much of your music played through various stages of my life. I can think of them vividly and how much your music has been to me. You and your voice and your songs are part of my soul. Same here. Well, you guys kept me going, along with Team America, I think.

51:12You guys kept me going on the tour bus for tour after tour with my former band. So the gratitude has returned. Thank you very much. Thank you for talking with us today. I'm really pleased to have been here today. Yeah. Thanks very much. Thank you, Michael. We're going to see you for dinner. I'll see you for dinner. Yep. Yeah. Done. We're coming. Okay. We're coming to get you. Thank you, Michael. See you, buddy. All the best. Enjoy your day. Bye, baby. Bye. Bye. well done Willie thanks that's uh so weird I truly was I was listening to an REM song in the car uh yesterday or the day before and I was like oh perfect guest yeah I just bought like three of his albums because I just the other day on digital because I never had them I've only had them vinyl oh yeah I they are one of those bands for me REM where I have owned them on vinyl and on cassette and on CD and on digital.

52:03I've owned them in so many, every available format, because you want to keep listening to their music wherever you are. I miss his brain, his creativity, the subversive sort of take on things through music and sound and lyric. Those are the kind of people that we need who being our pops, or not pops, I mean, I guess it crossed over. Yeah, I mean, pop music is so big and vibrant right now, and God bless them, but I feel like we're missing a little bit of a counterbalance there, or maybe I just need to look forward to it. No, I think you're right. I think that we need rock stars and musicians who are creating music that's, you know, that's so important who also have something to say, who are, you know, that have some depth to it and have some meaning, and he is...

52:57Yeah, it's like all hands on deck right now to try to trigger better thought. Yeah. Sean, you've got any thoughts triggered yet? No, he's just working on buys over there. He's probably on a Google search right now. I loved him. Rhymes with buy. He is. Read. Resubmit. No, I like all the music people you both bring on. It's so cool. No, no, I don't have any. He's going. I do. I think like, I'm so surprised. You know, I fucking fell out of my chair when Depeche Mode came on. I fell out of my chair when Michael Stipe just came on and all these people come on. Well, I'm falling out of my chair with, it really is, I was sitting there watching.

53:41I was like, I can't believe we're talking. This podcast is such a gift. I know. Just selfishly for the three of us. You get to meet all these people. Listener, it's all your fault. Thank you so much for giving us an opportunity to sit here and hopefully we're asking some of the questions that you would ask if you were trapped in an elevator with one of your heroes too, like we are for an hour each day. And it's just such a gift that we can talk to these folks. We can talk to them for hours and forgive us sometimes because I know that people are like, oh, you know, you guys didn't let him finish.

54:14We're fans as well. So we trip over ourselves. I know that I do. Sometimes I'm not as... Yeah, we fight for the next question. Yeah, because I'm like, we only have him for an hour and I just want to tell him how great I think he is. and people are like, oh, God, how annoying. I know, that's how I, that's why I was like, I gotta tell them all this stuff, I ran into you, I sang this song, and this song means, and this song means, I could go on and on about it. And we could go on and on with him, but, because it's always so sad to say, oh, good. Bye.

54:47Bye. Bye. Let's harmonize like how the, good, bye. Bye. Hey, we did it. Smart Less.

55:03Smart Less. Smart Less is 100 % organic and artisanally handcrafted by Rob Armjarf, Bennett Barbaco, and Michael Grantary.

55:20Smart Less.