"Professor Brian Cox"

10:44Sean Hayes:Oh, Brian, I've watched so many of your videos and you've confused me so much. And also, I can't wait to ask you everything. I literally wrote, I have over 60 questions. Wow. Really? Yeah. No way. But we'll get to like four. It's very good. First of all, Brian, I'm sorry that we've lowered the bar here for you that you have to come and join us today. So let me just say that right from the get-go. What is your area of expertise in science? So it's particle physics and cosmology. Particle physics and cosmology. Any question about the universe as a whole? Yeah, any question about the universe.

11:19Will Arnett:So should I give him the mirror question and see if he can give me an answer on that? Not yet, not yet. No, hold it, hold it, hold it. Jason was once, we once had another episode where Jason was confused about light travel. I want to destroy the podcast, yeah. And I forget. Oh, no, it was time travel. It was time travel. Anyway. We can do that. Anyway, yeah. Thanks for doing this. I know you're very busy. And like Will said, thanks for coming in today. No, it's a huge pleasure. I'm a huge fan. So thank you guys. Oh, that's very sweet.

11:47Sean Hayes:I am starstruck, Brian. I honestly don't know where to start. I'm so like excited. You start with a pun there with starstruck. Good for you. I did start with a pun. So wait, before I start on everything, because this will launch us into what I want to talk about. So first of all, did you really get a D in math? And if that's true, what made you continue to explore interest in the thing that you were doing well in? I did get a D in math. And the reason was that, so I, as you said, grew up in Manchester. And New Order were doing a gig at the Hacienda. Wait, that's one of my favorite bands of all time.

12:19Yeah, so they were at the Hacienda the night before my math A-level. and I thought, well, it's more important to go and see New Order at the Hacienda because I thought I was going to be a musician, as you said. I thought, I'm going to be in a band, I'm going to be a rock star, this stuff doesn't matter. So I went to see New Order instead and got a D. That's amazing. I love that.

12:36Sean Hayes:I can say that I've never been to Manchester, but so many of my favorite bands are from there and even I know about Hacienda as just this mythical place to go and see all those great bands back then, Oasis, as you said, New Order, The Smiths, everybody, right? Like that's just stone roses. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And then, and actually the, so Peter Saville, who's the great designer who designed the Hacienda and he designed a Joy Division, Unknown Pleasures album cover, New Odds album covers. So he designed the t-shirts for my tour. You mentioned that I do these live shows. He designed the t-shirts. You guys, they're stadium shows.

13:14I mean, I can't wait to go to one. He's, yeah. We're in LA actually next year. Really? It'll be theater, I think. I can't, I'm going. Wow. Yeah. And so Peter is famous for not putting the name or whatever on the album cover. You know, very famously, the Blue Monday 12-inch, so it cost more to produce than it sold for, you know, and lost the money. So he did the T-shirts, and he just wrote, Existence, What Does It Matter? So that's the T-shirt. Whoa. So it doesn't say me. So if you'd like me to answer that, I'm welcome. Yeah, yeah. I'll have a go.

13:49Will Arnett:Brian, what happens at your stadium shows? What do you do? They're basically big LED screens, as much as we can get in. So, you know, 100 foot across kind of LED. And the current show, I just got back yesterday, actually, from Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, where we've done some shows. And I basically start with the beginning of science. I talk about life in the universe, the origin of the universe, the evolution of the universe, and the future of the universe, and discuss the Fermi paradox, the great silence. pretty much everything actually and the meaning of existence I want it all I know let me just ask you

14:32Sean Hayes:right off the bat why? why is there a universe or why do the show? we can start there simply why? it's a good question so we don't even know if the universe had a beginning but what about the big bang theory and people are like so we know there was a big bang which is that we know that the universe was hot and dense 13.8 billion years ago yeah but whether that was an origin in time or whether that was something that happened in a pre-existing universe that could be eternal we don't know we don't even know what time is actually right so um so it's very difficult to speak about a beginning so the answer the question why well it's a question to you really does that If the universe is infinite and has always existed, is it possible to ask the question why?

15:28Yeah, yeah.

15:29Sean Hayes:We got to take a break. Brian, sorry, I just got to go empty my brain.

15:35Will Arnett:But also the concept of like, what is the universe in? You just can keep going back, back, back, and back. At some point, you need to find something that contains all of it. And what is that boundary? There isn't anything.

15:51Sean Hayes:Jason, I would suspect, JB, though, that that's something that we think that it needs to contain, that we can't possibly conceive of the idea of it not being contained. Because our brains want to make a formality.

16:03Will Arnett:There are boundaries to everything, yeah. Yeah, because according to Einstein, it's space, time, so space and time, they don't exist in anything. There isn't like a container that contains, It's like saying space, right? So like the room that you're in, you don't imagine there must be a container that contains space if you think about it. But time definitely exists because we can all agree that this interview started in the past and the end of the interview is going to exist in the future. And so sort of by definition, that contains time there, right? It's one of the deep questions, actually. So there are ideas now from the study of black holes that suggest that space and time emerge from something deeper.

16:55So we're even starting to talk about building blocks of space and time. What does that mean? Well, talk about the arrow of time.

17:02Sean Hayes:Hang on, hang on. What does that mean, the building blocks? So where is that coming from? Well, if you think of emerge, an example of something that emerges is consciousness, right? So we say, well, consciousness, it emerges from all these atoms in a particular pattern that's your head or your brain. And in the same way, people are beginning to speculate that space and time emerge from something, some kind of building blocks. And we don't really know what they, well, we don't know what they are. But until we know that, it's difficult to talk about a beginning. because you're right Jason that when you say time then you're right that container is a good picture isn't it?

17:47If you have a beginning and an end that contains everything or brackets it but we don't know that

17:54Sean Hayes:but we also like, we know that stuff happened right? Like I could go upstairs and I shut this door and I know that that happened a couple minutes ago that I shut this door because it's shut but at the same time I remember saying to somebody you know sort of trying to understand the conception of just now that we actually potentially only have this moment that we're in and i used to always say you know try to go and buy a lotto ticket winning lotto ticket from yesterday you can't right it's already it's already happened and therefore in in a lot of senses does not exist it doesn't exist anywhere yesterday right Do you know, so Einstein's picture, so relativity back from 1905 and 1915, there's this idea called the block universe, which means that every moment is still there.

18:47It's like a map. So you could imagine drawing a map of the world now. So I could leave London and come and fly to Los Angeles. You wouldn't say that London is gone. You'd say somewhere. somewhere so in this case in einstein's picture all those moments all your memories all your past and your future exists somewhere in space time and you just travel over the map that's an idea

19:14Will Arnett:called the block universe but it that's that sort of reminds me of like this gummy that that that makes me think of that you know the concept that i still can't sort of get my head around is, you know, since we've all seen these pictures with these new powered telescopes where we have images of what that first separation was of the Big Bang, right? So that is, we are looking into the past there because presumably the Big Bang is what started, all those rocks came out of there and one of those rocks is the planet Earth, right? So everything that we know is on that one rock. So everything that has happened since that rock was born is, so if we can already look back to when that rock happened, we've already looked way, way, way, way back.

20:08Will Arnett:So we figure if we have a less powerful telescope, we can see less back in the past. And we could see like eventually, if you had a really weak telescope, you could see yesterday. Like we already have a telescope that can see the beginning of time. as far as Earth goes. So all of that time, that's what I was trying to get at with the other scientists that we were talking about. If we can already see back to the beginning of when the Earth started, then we should be able to see like four or five years ago, right? So the way to think about it, what's happening is, so light travels one foot per nanosecond.

20:44Will Arnett:Or 186 ,000 miles per second, 186, is that right? It's one foot per nanosecond. So if you're now one foot away from your computer screen, let's say, then you're seeing it one nanosecond in the past. Right, exactly. So it's in that sense that if you look at a galaxy, the most distant one we've seen at the moment is called MOMZ14, actually, M-O-M-Z14.

21:11Sean Hayes:Oh, that's cute. And the light travel time from that is 13.5 billion years.

21:17Will Arnett:Right. So you're seeing it as it was 13 and a half billion years ago. But that's just in the same sense. Yeah, it would be easier to see. Yeah, well, like the heat we're feeling from the sun left the sun seven minutes ago. That's how long. Eight minutes, yeah. So it's been traveling at 186 ,000 miles per second for eight minutes, and now it's finally hitting your cheek, and you're feeling it. Yeah, so you're seeing the sun as it was eight minutes in the past. Right, and you're looking in the past. So shouldn't we be able to see if we really dialed in our telescopes just right. We should be able to see what we were doing last week if you had that mirror up there.

21:54Sean Hayes:JB is, I tell you something, Brian, JB has been hung up on this for five years and you are going to answer him to his satisfaction. No, you're right. If you put a mirror where the sun is, then I guess you're right. You'd see a reflection of the earth as it was 16 minutes ago. Thanks for joining us today. Holy shit, he's right.

22:15Will Arnett:That's the end of the interview. He did it, he did it. That's the end. Brian, thanks for being here. You've got to go on tour with Brian. I think the flaw in my math, though, is that it takes seven minutes, if we're doing the sun, it takes seven minutes to come down to our eye and seven minutes to go back up to the mirror. So we really could never catch up to seeing the past perfectly, I guess. I don't know. Well, you see, it's just in that sense that it's in exactly the same way that you're seeing your computer screen in the past. Yeah. But it's only a nanosecond.

22:44Sean Hayes:Okay. We're going to move on from time. All right. Boy, I wish we could go back in time and gather all that back. You know what I mean? JB, you're going to, until the day you die, it's going to be on your tombstone. So if you had mirrors.

22:59Will Arnett:I'm just going to take with me, Jason, you're right. He is right. That's what I'm going to take from this. Yeah, by the way. He is right. It is interesting. He is right. You are right. So can I talk about, go away from the cosmos for a second, talk about science for just a bit. And you may not know these things, but I wrote them down because I wanted to ask you. So at preparing for you coming on, first of all, I'm so excited because I've wanted to meet for a long time. So this is a thought I had. This is bizarre, and it's going to take a minute to get to my question. I'm sure I'm saying it wrong, but we started with symbols, drawings, hieroglyphics, right?

23:30And then language and writing, probably because it was faster than drawing everything. And then phones and texting. And then we got tired of typing full words and went back to shorthand and emojis. are we kind of like weirdly heading back towards symbols just as at a much faster speed? Does that mean the end point of all of this is like telepathy, AI, or some device where what we mean before we have to say it or type it, people will understand?

23:57Will Arnett:What is your opinion on that? Like vibe and all that stuff. That is a legitimate form of communication. I feel like animals have that. They can start like, you know, you see how like those dogs, They're nose to nose. And they don't say anything like, fuck you, fuck you. And then they start snapping into each other. It's just like a vibe. And then it's like, they're communicating beforehand. I feel like they know how to talk without speaking. That's what I'm saying. Thoughts on vibe?

24:24Sean Hayes:Thoughts on vibe? I have absolutely no idea what that question means. Okay, fine. That's fine. What about like a flock of birds?

24:33Will Arnett:A flock of birds. All these birds, they turn at exactly the same time. They're all coordinated. There's no like signal. Ready, one, two, three. Everybody go left. No, I feel like they know how to talk without speaking. Right. But that might be out of your thing, Brian. I just didn't know if you knew about like medical stuff and like AI stuff. What about, show them your rash, Sean.

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27:20Will Arnett:And now, back to the show. Let's talk about simulation theory, okay? Because that's fascinating to me. Explain that to me. Well, is it meaning like, are we living in a simulation? is any of this real? Because if tomorrow we discover the universe was a simulation, what would be the first clue? And would anything look fake? But I've always heard talk about that and I've never really understood what it means. Like there's somebody like watching up a mission control that this is all just sort of like a gag. Let's see what Brian says. Yeah, we did a radio show on this a few years ago now. And there's a guy called Nick Bostrom who thinks about this quite a lot in Cambridge.

27:57And he managed to convince everybody that we probably were. living in a simulation. The basic idea is just if you think about how computers are at the moment and how powerful they are and virtual reality and all those things. The question ultimately is, in principle, if you can imagine the most powerful computer, even if it's a computer that we could only build in 100 years or 1 ,000 years' time, is it possible in principle for the simulation to be so good that you would not notice? Right. That's the basic idea. And although it sounds completely mad, it turns out it's quite difficult to try to form an argument that says that we're not in a simulation.

28:41I don't think we are, but I was convinced after the end of the radio show that that was just me saying I don't think that we are without any logical argument. I mean, yeah. How did that theory come about then? What evidence was presented? I mean, that's the thing. there isn't any evidence it's just it's just the the idea that if you can you imagine even even even simulating your experience your conscious experience you mentioned the ai so ai is again very powerful now that then there's debate about whether those things are actually conscious or whether they could be conscious or whether they could be considered living things the idea is that if a computer can run a simulation of reality, it's so perfect that it even has, you know, well, things that operate like human brains or AIs in it.

29:38I mean, think of an AI, for example, actually. Think of an AI, it's running a load of computers somewhere. But if it becomes conscious and intelligent, and we don't know whether they can, but if it did, then it's in a computer. Right. So the question really is, are we that, I guess, basically, are we one of those?

29:59Will Arnett:Well, it kind of goes to the issue of like, you know, is there a formula to a thought? Like, is there a mathematical equation to an idea? In other words, in your brain, you know, it's not like a series. It's not like a combination. Like in a computer, it's a combination of zeros and ones, right? in your, like that's literally like numbers and the combination of those and all the coding of that. Please say vibe, please say vibe. And in your brain, there obviously aren't numbers in there, but it's like a series of electronic impulses and a combination of all that and some blood and all that give you an idea to, you know, for me to ask this question.

30:37Will Arnett:I like got the idea and then I spoke it. I don't think they figured out what that mathematical formula is for that idea to ask a question or that idea to walk outside. They're all different equations that give you different ideas. And as soon as they figure out what that equation is, then perhaps that... In other words, how do they give AI consciousness? How does it become thinking on its own instead of just dealing with prompts? Have you heard of Alan Turing? Yes, of course. So Alan Turing had an idea called the Turing Machine, a universal Turing machine. And that was basically the idea that all computers that have some kind of basic sort of functionality are equivalent to each other, so that they can all do the same thing.

31:31So even this thing that he imagined with a little paper tape going through sort of this 1930s kind of picture of what a computer might be, could, if given enough time, do everything that the computer on our desktops can do now, or everything that all the computers that are running all the AIs and chat GBT and everything in the world, they're all equivalent to each other. And so the question just becomes, is our brain a universal Turing machine? And many people think it is, and a few people think it isn't. I would say most people think it is. So all you're saying, really, is that a sufficiently powerful computer could do precisely what you are doing now.

32:10In fact, that's the idea.

32:12Sean Hayes:But we are informed by, and JB, this kind of goes through it too, Part of what inspired you to ask a question, for instance, as the example, was informed by years of your living on this planet, years of trauma, exhilaration, sadness, joy, all those things, emotion. A lot of trauma and a lot of sadness. I know. And so, right. And so like, and then that becomes the question, like how those are the things that that's the information on an emotional level that potentially maybe AI could have, but can a computer ever understand those, you know, the compounding, not just those emotions, but the compounding of them in various ways, the piling on, the stripping off, all of that stuff forms the basis of who you are and why you woke up the way you were.

33:05you did today yes but if you think think about your brain what what is it then it's just a collection of atoms which is a remarkable thing to say actually going back to what we were talking about earlier the origin of the universe 13.8 billion years ago there's just hydrogen and helium and the generations of stars and they build carbon and oxygen and those atoms have come together in a pattern temporary pattern which is you and me so so but if your brain is just that and i would say it is right so it's just a collection of atoms a very complex collection then the idea is that it it's in i can't conceive of anything it could be other than a computer it's got a lot of data in it you're talking about your memories they're in there and it's processing them so i don't see if If anyone wants to say, well, there's a real fundamental difference, you have to say what it is.

34:01And I don't see anything it could be. It's a load of atoms in a remarkable pattern.

34:09Will Arnett:Yeah. What are you most excited for AI to possibly accomplish? Is there one thing you really have your fingers crossed on? I mean, there are enormous questions in science. We talked about one. the origins of the universe. There's what happens inside a black hole. We don't know about that. There are all the questions that you mentioned about biology, the way the human brain works. To me, if AI can be powerful enough to answer those questions, if it can be like not only a single Einstein or Stephen Hawking, but it can be a thousand Einsteins, which is not beyond the realm of possibility, we could get answers to these.

34:54Will Arnett:But it's limited to all of the questions we've already answered, right? You upload all of those answers and then its ability to kind of merge and combine all of those answers to maybe formulate a new answer to a question we haven't even asked yet. That's a possibility, right? I read the other day, I can't remember who said it, but it said, imagine that you could restrict it. So it only knew stuff to, let's say, 1904, right? So it only knew the whole data, but the only data it could have is to 1904. Would it invent Einstein's theory of relativity? Interesting. Which he published in 1905. That is an experiment you could actually do.

35:38Sean Hayes:Would it be able to predict all of this since 1904, even in a bigger sense? That's the question about free will, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. Brian, as you began your sort of study and got into your field, when you were a younger man, was there one big question or idea that really captured your imagination that took you in this direction? Was there one thought? Do you remember having a moment like that? One of them, and I still have it, the question is, is there life beyond Earth in the solar system? Yeah. Is there life beyond Earth in the Milky Way galaxy? I hesitate to say the universe because there are two trillion galaxies in the observable universe, each with hundreds of billions of stars.

36:33Sean Hayes:Observable is the key there. I was careful with my language because we don't know whether it's infinite. And a lot of people don't know that when you say galaxies, right, So the Milky Way is a galaxy, and in the galaxy is our solar system, and how many solar system in each galaxy-ish. Yeah, so the Milky Way, 400 billion stars. So 400 ,000 million suns. So there's 400 billion suns just in our one galaxy. I mean, it's mind-blowing. Yeah, in our island, it's stars.

37:03Will Arnett:Right, so when we look up in the sky, those little white dots up there, each one of those is a sun, right? Those are stars. That's a sun, right? Yeah. They're not planets. Well, they could be planets, yeah. Well, we actually think that virtually all of them will have planets, which is a beautiful thing in itself, actually. The other answer to your question, Will, was that it was astronomy that really captured my imagination. And when you think about it, when I was growing up in the 70s, we hadn't discovered any planets beyond the solar system, beyond our solar system. Starting in the 1990s, we're discovering them.

37:38So what that means is you go outside tonight when you've listened to this and you look at the night sky and if you see the stars, all of them will have planets around them. So solar systems, every one of those points are light. And that's one of the things that I think is so, the most beautiful thing about astronomy is then your imagination can wander. You can look at any of those points of light and say, what do those worlds look like?

38:01Will Arnett:Are they ocean worlds? Right, but sometimes they say when you look up in the sky, one of the white dots is like Jupiter or Mars sometimes. But they look exactly like all the other little white dots, which are suns as well, right? Like our sun is a star. The earth is not a star, correct? The earth is a planet. But I wonder, like, so then planets... Why do we call them stars? Yeah, but why do they look white as well? Because they're not emitting light. So it's a good question.

38:33Sean Hayes:I think that also influences also diminish stars too, because there used to be real stars, and now it's just... Right, legitimate stars. Legitimate stars. The big movie stars. Sorry. So, yeah, the planets in our solar system, you're right. So you can see Jupiter, Venus is often very bright in the morning or evening sky. You'll see Mars, Saturn. So those are just reflecting the light of the sun.

38:56Will Arnett:Okay. So that's why you see them. They don't emit their own light. But they often look exactly like other suns slash stars. Yeah, although, you know, you get a really small telescope and you look at them, then you will see, even with a small telescope, you'll see the clouds of Jupiter, you'll see the rings of Saturn with a small telescope. So they're nearby and they're just reflecting the sun's light. We are every other thing that isn't a planet, every other point of light. So the overwhelming majority of them are stars.

39:27Sean Hayes:By the way, I had, maybe I talked about this once, I had somebody say to me once, trying to understand the infinite or the vastness of the universe and the potential infinite nature of it. He said, imagine a library. And in that library was a book on every imaginable subject. Even a book about me describing this on this podcast. A book about your thinking about me talking, asking this question on this podcast. Every possible subject, right? About my relationship to the door that I talked about closing and then imagine libraries like that stacked in every direction going up forever. And I was like, fuck, man, that blew my brain out.

40:20Sean Hayes:Well, what was that? I can't even imagine, as Sean said, a single galaxy, the Milky Way. I mean, 400 ,000 million stars. It takes light 100 ,000 years to cross the Milky Way. It's not possible. to imagine. It takes light a hundred thousand years to cross light years to cross the Milky Way. A hundred thousand years. Yeah. Traveling at that speed. At the speed of light. And that's just one galaxy. Yeah. So I have Guys, I'm out. That's it for me. If there's this you know, we talk about the supermassive black hole at the center of our galaxy, right? Wow. And that's swallowing up everything, right?

41:04Everything is going in it. So why? No, everything is just going around it. Oh, around it. It's not sucking it in. Don't black holes suck it all in? No, if you turn the sun into a black hole. Yeah. Now, by the way, it would be only about two miles in radius if you did that. So it would be really small. But everything just carries on going around. So the earth would just carry on going around the black hole. Oh, I thought black holes suck everything like the light and everything around it. Okay. So I'm going to do like, I'm going to do, what is it called? Rapid fire, right? Right. Will we ever figure out how to travel faster than light?

41:42Or is that just, no? No. Okay. I'm going to confidently say no.

41:48Will Arnett:Really? Will we ever be able to travel at the speed of light? No. So as far as we know, this is Einstein. It's been known for a hundred years. You can't travel. if you've got any mass at all unless you're light which has no mass you can get really as close as you want to the speed of light but you can't travel at it or faster than it and that's as far as we know but we can travel faster than the speed of sound we've done that so I wonder then what is the limit of the speed that the body can travel at I mean, like, will our matter start to break up? Like, because all of our atoms somehow stay together.

42:37Will Arnett:I wonder if you travel at too many Gs or whatever, does the skin start to fall apart? This is a great question. So there's two things. There's acceleration. There's acceleration. You said Gs, you know, and that's right. You know, anyone who's, if anyone's been, I'd be lucky enough to be in a fighter plane or something like that and gone at 7G or 8G, you know, it hurts. Yeah. So that's acceleration. But speed, you can travel at any speed that you want. And a good example, this is what, so the example is if you're on a plane, right? If you're on an aircraft, it feels like you're not moving. Right.

43:16So it might be going at 500 miles an hour or whatever it is, but you can't tell.

43:20Will Arnett:And we're all traveling at about 1 ,000 miles an hour anyway because the planet is spinning at about 1 ,000 miles an hour, right? Is that what it is? It's 24 hours to make a full rotation, and it's about a 25 ,000-mile-around Earth. What would happen if the Earth stopped spinning right now? We'd hit the wall. Yeah, because you'd accelerate. It would be the end of everything, right? Well, if it just stopped. If it slowed down gradually, then you'd be stuck in night or day or whatever it is. but you wouldn't if it just suddenly stopped then we'd accelerate and you'd get thrown against the wall so we're spinning from left to right a thousand miles an hour and if you get on a plane and the plane only goes 500 miles an hour and you're also going left to right on the plane in theory you'd never reach your destination in fact the earth would be spinning twice the speed that you're traveling so your destination would actually come up behind you and then you just sort of settle back down again and you'd finally get there.

44:25Will Arnett:But the reason that we're all sort of traveling at the, you feel the 500 miles an hour, you get progress in the traveling that direction is because everything within three miles, right? Isn't that the atmospheric sort of bubble around the earth that as long as you stay only at three miles off the planet, no higher than that, you're traveling in relatively the same speed. And that's what enables our spacecrafts to whatever speed they're traveling when they leave that atmosphere, they can shut off their engines and maintain that speed because there's no gravity up there. Is that right? No, there's gravity.

44:58There's no air. So there's no friction.

45:01Will Arnett:Oh, right. So they just carry on going at whatever speed they're going at.

45:05Sean Hayes:And they don't run out of fuel. There's loads of gravity. Right. Superman used to go, again, he'd go the opposite way. Remember, he'd go around here. Right, he made the Earth turn the other way. Well, he'd go back in time. That's how we went back. Yeah, they got that wrong. Yeah. Wait, they got that wrong in the comic book? It's not a documentary. Wait a second. Oh, wow. Wait a second. Okay, so what... Okay, wait, I got it. So wait, oh, we talked about the universe expanding. This blew my mind. I read this, like, if the universe is expanding at this incredible speed, very, very, very far in the future, will it be probably...

45:45It'll probably be a real fact that who's ever living on a planet like Earth, we won't be able to see anything else. We won't even know anything else exists. We'll just see darkness. Yeah, that's right. So all the galaxies beyond... We'll be so far apart that we won't even be able to see them. Wait, because of why? Because the universe is expanding, still expanding. It's expanding and expanding faster and faster.

46:08Will Arnett:Right. Why won't our stars stay with us as we're expanding? Because they're moving away from us. But why aren't the stars expanding? aren't they in the same expansion as the planets are? That's a great question as well. That's four. You are doing well. Jeez, that's four. It's the distant galaxies that go away so that they disappear beyond what's called the horizon. It's amazing. But the gravity in our galaxy keeps our galaxy together. So we don't think the universe is going to expand in such a way that rips everything apart. It could do. We don't think. It's not the idea where it could do in the real distant future.

46:46But we don't think that's what's happening. Okay, so aliens. First you said that they might, you used to be a believer, and now you're not so much. Is that fair to say? No, I think...

46:57Sean Hayes:I can't believe it took you this long to get to aliens, if I'm being honest. I have 12 questions on aliens. It depends what you mean, right? Because we're looking for and getting, we haven't got absolute evidence yet, but we're getting more and more circumstantial evidence that there might be a life on Mars. Microbes, though. Yeah, but I thought you were going to say all the photo and video evidence that's come from... Oh, no, no, no, no, I'll get to that. But so microbes, I would not be surprised if they're on Mars, if they're on Jupiter's moon Europa, places where there are oceans in the solar system, and there's several moons where we think there are oceans below the surface.

47:35So that'd be microbes. Complex life. So I'll give you one idea that if you look at the history of life on Earth, then we know that life began around 3.8 to 4 billion years ago. So it's pretty much as soon as the Earth had formed, then you see microbes on it, let's say 4 billion years ago. But you see nothing more complex than a single cell back beyond about a billion years ago. So 3 billion years of the 4 billion years of life on Earth through a single cell, just slime, basically. It's only the last sort of little quarter. Three, for the first three billion years. That's how long it took for us to get where we are.

48:19So it took four billion years to go from the origin of life to us on this planet, which is one third of the age of the entire universe. So many people, and I would put myself in this camp, if you had said, guess how many civilizations are there in a galaxy like the Milky Way, I'd say on average less than one, which is a guess. But it's a guess based on what, the only observation that we have, we've got two observations, right? One is we haven't seen anything. So an astronomer's called that the great silence. And we could talk about that. It's kind of a surprise. I'll talk about that in a sec. So that's one observation.

48:59And the other one is it took 4 billion years for us to evolve. Right. Now, many stars don't live for four billion years. So what we're saying is this little planet, Earth, remained safe and stable enough to support an unbroken chain of life for one third of the age of the universe, which is what it took to produce us. Wow. And when you put it like that, even though there are hundreds of billions of planets in the Milky Way galaxy, but I often say that people say, well, surely there must be loads of civilizations. but a very big number multiplied by a very small number, which is the chances that things survive, is not necessarily a big number.

49:41A really big number multiplied by a really small number can actually be a really small number. So that's the first thing. The other thing I would say is that the other bit of evidence that I'm really persuaded by is something called the Fermi paradox. Yeah, what is that? Which is that imagine, so we've seen that today as we're speaking, right, SpaceX have just done their thing on the stock market and all those things. And then, so, you know, we're building rockets. We have two spacecraft that are in interstellar space that we're still in touch with, the Voyager spacecraft, after 50 years in space.

50:17Yeah, are we still getting information from that? We are, yeah. So, they're in interstellar space. So, in about, most people would say modern science has been around for about 400 years, right, give or take, from Galileo and people like that. So in 400 years, we've gone from basically inventing modern science to building interstellar spacecraft. So imagine what we would look like in the Milky Way galaxy if you let us have another thousand years. Or actually let us have another million years at this rate of progress. We haven't been around our species for that long, but give us another million years.

50:49Imagine what we would look like. Surely we would have gone out to the stars and anyone else in the Milky Way galaxy would see us. We'd have written the evidence of our existence across the sky. But we see no evidence that any civilization has done that in the 13 billion year history of the Milky Way galaxy. So that's the Fermi paradox.

51:11Will Arnett:But what if those folks out there don't look like us and in fact have figured out a way to separate themselves into such small matter and are able to travel in that small matter such that we can't see it in the same way that all the information on your phone is traveling in and around us, we can't see it. Like that incoming phone call that's coming to your phone right now. On the satellite, yeah. Yeah, no, no, just like if you called me right now, whatever those little particles are that lights up my phone and makes it go ring, ring, ring, I don't see that traveling and I don't see it going into my phone.

51:51Will Arnett:And so like maybe they figured out how to just like be really tiny and come back together and form a body with those almond eyes when they want to. But at other times, they're just, they're zapping around as quick and as, yeah. JB,

52:06Sean Hayes:JB, didn't we talk to that guy, that idea of them living what we would consider to be?

52:12Will Arnett:That was his suggestion. His suggestion is that they do exist. They are here. They just exist in a space that we can't see much like your radio frequencies. But even, it's a very good point. And it could be, let's just really simply imagine five. I'm not keeping count, but it is five. Imagine that the little spaceships are as big as a phone, like you said. It could be that they've got little spaceships all over the place, they're as big as a phone, they're orbiting around the Earth, we wouldn't see them. That is a possibility, right? There are ways out of the Fermi paradox. All we can say is that we've kind of looked, we have this thing called SETI, the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, and we use radio telescopes and we have a look.

52:51We haven't seen anything. Sean, are you masturbating?

52:57Will Arnett:As soon as he said SETI I thought you got real close He started when he said

53:02Sean Hayes:hot and dense at the start of the show because it reminded him of his first boyfriend SETI almost finished you off We dumped black holes as well

53:11Will Arnett:Yeah, black holes

53:13Sean Hayes:Oh, please don't

53:14Will Arnett:That got the blood flowing

53:18Will Arnett:And we will be right back

53:22Sean Hayes:investing with schwab might remind you of one of your friends yes the one who is smart good at finances and loves having it all that one effortlessly cool friend who likes to mix and match their style by dressing up and down at the same time you know that suit and sneakers kind of thing one minute it's tailored jacket energy the next it's casual friday energy but somehow it always works. Because when you invest with Schwab, you can invest your way. Keep it casual by making your own trades here and there. Or keep it classy and put on your fancy pants with full-service wealth management. Or be like your buddy and do a little bit of both.

54:04Sean Hayes:Because sometimes you want to be hands-on, and other times you'd rather let someone else handle the details. So you can get back to building an outfit that says, board meeting up top, weekend vibes down below. Visit schwab.com to learn more. That's S-C-H-W-A-B.com.

54:51Thank you.

55:12Symptoms persist.

55:42future. Get the degree your dog approves of. Apply today at snhu.edu slash smartless.

55:54And now, back to the show.

55:58Sean Hayes:But I will say this, Brian, I saw this, not to bring it up, I saw this, you know, this I don't know if you guys have ever listened to the telepathy tapes, it's a wonderful podcast that talks about these nonverbal people who are able to seemingly communicate with each other hundreds and if not a thousand miles away from each other in ways that are very sort of provable. And I've since seen a cut of this documentary that is absolutely stunning that actually shows that and that they are able to communicate in a way that we can't understand. Not even like that we can't comprehend, meaning that with all of our reason we can't seem to accept that they're able to do this and so people say no it's bullshit and yet they are communicating and that's what I meant about this other dimension Brian that potentially exists that we don't appreciate there is an the argument against that if I did about 30 seconds is that the particles out of which we are made so each of us we're only made out of three things actually donuts Up quarks, down quarks and electrons.

57:12Sean Hayes:Yeah. Donuts. So three particles. And we understand in massive detail how they interact with each other, how the forces of nature that stick them together. We look for other forces of nature. I worked at the Large Adron Collider at CERN in Geneva. It's a 27, well, it's a 16-mile circumference thing. I want to talk about that. But we're looking for anything that's a different, a new force, a nature, new particles, and we haven't seen anything. So what most scientists would say in response is that we understand perfectly how particles interact, how the particles that make up our bodies, in the conditions that we find ourselves, which are these conditions here on Earth.

58:01So I think your use of the word seemingly was excellent. Right. I like that. That was the correct hedge. And so you don't think it's possible that humans are aliens from another world? That whole theory? That's called panspermia. Is that another one? Yeah, yeah.

58:23Sean Hayes:I was going to set you off as well.

58:27Panspermia. Panspermia. So there is an idea that, you know, we know that there are Martian meteorites on Earth, for example. There are bits of Mars that fall on Earth. Bits of Earth will have fallen on Mars. So there are people who thought, well, could it be that life began on Mars and then got transferred to Earth on a meteorite or something? Most don't think that. We've got no evidence for that. But it's not absolutely impossible. So, yeah, so it's possible that we're Martians. It's unlikely. And did you see the movie? You saw the movie Contact, right? I love it. Carl Sagan is one of my – That's another answer to Will's question about why I got into science.

59:06One of them is Carl Sagan's Cosmos. So if you remember... Remember when Jodie Foster... So in the movie, they're interviewing scientists... Remember? Brian, remember? They're interviewing scientists about what's the one question they are going to ask these alien beings when they get there. and what would be the question you would ask? Does planet Earth make me look fat?

59:43Like, what would you want to know? The first thing is I'd be relieved that there were any aliens. I'd really say thank God for that, because I'm worried that, imagine, if you go back to what we said earlier, If we're the only intelligent life for thousands or millions of light years in every direction, let's say in the Milky Way galaxy, if we are, imagine the responsibility that we have. So I would be pretty relieved if somebody else also had that responsibility to carry the torch for intelligence and therefore meaning in the galaxy. Right, right, right.

1:00:23Sean Hayes:So I'd say I'm relieved about this. You'd take a vacation. You'd immediately go on holidays, what you're saying. But you'd say, we can just relax. And then, but I'd like to know how they got through these problems that we have. You know, we talk about AI and we talk about the threat and we've still got nuclear weapons and those things. So we've got all these problems to navigate before we make it to the stars. So I actually would say, how did you not blow yourselves up? How did you not mess it up before you became an interstellar civilization? That's a good question, yeah.

1:00:56Will Arnett:It is amazing that if we are made of just what those three elements and it's so it's all it's all sort of science and various combinations and recipes of all these little elements in in the atmosphere that that made this intelligent, you know, life form. it's amazing that nowhere else in the entire universe has a combination of various elements come together to create another sort of living breathing thinking thing that might not look like us but because it seems somewhat arbitrary that just you know based on like just sort of cooking in a recipe that those little three elements came together and out of the slime out of the algae over the years of evolution we became like that that didn't come together in some other form somewhere else too oh yeah i i agree with you i'm sure in even in the unit of the universe we can see with those two trillion galaxies in it i'm sure it's happened you know out there right right the question really is how far do we have to go to see another world where it happened in and you're right what you said actually you could turn it around because you're right is these three particles and over 13 and a half billion years that somehow these particles have got together in a pattern that can have a conversation that's quite a big ask when you put it like that so that's the other way to look at it you talked about I only have a few minutes left of your time and God bless you for hanging in there with us I love it, I could I could chat to you.

1:02:36I love it too. I seriously could talk to you for hours. Let me see. What's a scientific fact you know is true but still find impossible to emotionally process? Oh, there's almost all of it. We've talked about a lot of it. I mean, just that idea, as we said earlier, the billions of stars. But also, I've got a friend who's a physicist that I work with a lot at the university in Manchester. and he said to me the most incredible thing of all is that anything exists right so ultimately it's the fact that just i mean it's it's a obviously an age-old philosophical question right that it astonishes me that anything exists it really astonished me what jason said a few minutes ago that these little particles have managed to get together into patterns that can have conversations and bring meaning to the universe in a very real sense right that amazes

1:03:31Will Arnett:How do you keep from getting, like if I was in your line of work, which is basically probing for answers to questions, I personally would have sort of this looming sort of angst and potential depression that I know I'm in a field that I'm never, ever going to know the answers to all of it. and it's just like somebody who like specializes in the afterlife well you're never going to really know what happens until after you die and then it's too late to come back and let us all know that is my next question i swear to god it's the key that that is the key to science this so you know the at the end of my live show actually i say that um what's the key what's it's a progress So first of all, progress, you have to admit that you don't know things.

1:04:24By definition, you can't make progress if you think you know everything. So people who think they know everything are going to be a barrier to progress first. But secondly, I say we have to stand on the edge of the known and look out into the unknown, not with fear, but with delight and excitement. Because it's the delight and excitement of not knowing. That's the key to science. So you turn it around and you're excited about looking out into the darkness because of the things that you might find, the treasure that's buried somewhere in the darkness.

1:04:58Will Arnett:And you get comfortable with the fact that you'll never reach the end of that line of questions. Yeah, because then it would be, in some ways, because it's so wonderful and delightful to not know things and to have things to find out, It would be, the greatest fear might be that we end up knowing everything. Because then it would be utterly pointless. Yeah, you need a reason to get out of bed. So tell me what, in your science... Remember when Jodie Foster, just remember that moment? I love that film. It's one of my favorite films of all. No way, no way. Sean, what? You've seen it? It is though.

1:05:38Everything about that film is brilliant. Brilliant, right? Right. What, so in your scientific opinion, what happens when we die, which is kind of what Jason just touched on. Oh, boy. I mean, my view is that we die. So it's like... And that's it. It goes back to what we said earlier about if the brain is just this, somehow, I don't mean just, right? It's a remarkable computer that's evolved over 4 billion years, but it's a computer. If you turn the computer off, you don't ask what's happening inside the computer. We know what's happening inside the computer. It's nothing. So it goes back to all the questions we were discussing.

1:06:17So otherwise, I suppose you have to imagine there's something else other than the particles out of which we're made. Call it a soul or whatever you want to call it. But there's something else that we've not detected any evidence for. There's something else. That's what you have to...

1:06:36Sean Hayes:Yeah, it's like a bee. It's like a chasing going back. it's kind of like Ibiza at the end of the summer. Like the party's done, but the vibe continues on. Like the vibe, the vibe keeps going. You know what I mean? But then what's the most thing? I don't find it frightening, though. I find it wonderful. I mean, in a sense, it means that we have this finite time in which to enjoy ourselves and explore the universe and live. Right. So I think that's enough. I find that uplifting. Do you live for tomorrow or do you live for today? knowing that? That's a good question. One for me. Good for you, Will.

1:07:15You got on the board. Surely both, don't we? It goes back to that question. I was thinking about this the other day. Imagine you know everything. That's what we were just talking about. If you know everything, it means you know what's going to happen. So what kind of a life is that? If you knew what was going to happen tomorrow, I think our existence might be pointless. In fact, that's what I think. the key to our enjoyment of the universe is our enjoyment of life, is not knowing what's coming. If you knew, what would you do? How would you live if you knew?

1:07:50Will Arnett:That's why I like to believe that whatever our eternal battery is, like whatever keeps our, we don't have gasoline or battery power inside our body, but somehow our heart keeps beating. Even when we're sleeping, it just doesn't. So whatever is fueling us, and I like to think that it's sort of a friend of or part of our consciousness. Our consciousness is like this thing that it's sort of, it's in the ether. And that when our vehicle runs out of fuel and dies, right? Our body dies, runs out of time, that consciousness, those thoughts, those feelings, that it can travel and maybe either occupy another body or a dog or a tree or whatever, that it keeps, there's this perpetual sort of loop that this consciousness does, and it advances each time it goes through a body or a being or an object or something.

1:08:44Sean Hayes:Well, I like to think that it kind of dissipates into the, you know, that we're all connected. Combines, yeah. Yeah, and then at a certain point, it becomes sort of our turn, and then it sort of finds another vehicle. Yeah, I feel connected to the universe. I feel like I'm removing the magic if I say that. Sean answered the question. He said, what's fueling us? I just thought donuts. Yeah. You said it earlier. So that is actually technically correct. Sean, what did you have for breakfast today? I haven't eaten yet. What? I know, I haven't eaten yet. But what do you think it will be? I'm probably going to have eggs and toast today and also maybe like a yogurt drink.

1:09:21That's it though. That's what's fueling us. And then the answer to the question about what happens, obviously it's a wonderful question, but the thing is it's like saying what happens to Zoom when we turn the computer off. We keep Zooming. I don't think we do, though. I think when you turn the computer off, Zoom stops. Will's going to love this, and then we're going to let you go. You are a season ticket at Oldham Athletic soccer team, right? Yeah. Well, I was. Oh, I thought you still were. No, I used to be. It's my local club, my local football club in Oldham. Oh, wow. How about that?

1:10:00Sean Hayes:Who do you support now? Oldham. Oldham. Yeah. And that's it. We're famous. Oldham Athletic are famous for being the only club in history to have been in the Premier League. So we're in the Premier League with Man United and Liverpool and that. And then we got relegated out of the entire football league. Wow. All the way down. All the way down. But last year, and I was at the game, we got promoted back into the football league again. Wow. So now we're in the lowest division of the football league. Come on, Oldham.

1:10:31Will Arnett:Which is what, four divisions? Eight. Yeah. Eight, wow. We went all the way down into what we call non-league. So that's kind of our claim to fame. But we're on our way back.

1:10:42Sean Hayes:JB, that's your nickname, isn't it? Oldham? Brian, thank you so much for being here. You know, it's spelled Oldham. Old Ham? That's how he spelled. Old J. Also my name. I know you just got back from Australia. You've probably got to be exhausted. Thank you for being here. Thank you so much. And the next tour, it's called Emergence right now, your tour? Yeah. And I really, is that the one that's going to come to Los Angeles? Yeah, yeah. I'll be in LA and across America towards the end of this year. I can't wait. I can't wait for that. You're very kind to speak to us today. Thank you for putting up with our questions.

1:11:18Yeah. No, it's wonderful questions.

1:11:21Sean Hayes:Yeah. Have we got anywhere, though? Yeah. We never do.

1:11:24Will Arnett:We never do. We never get anywhere. We're smart more. We're smart more today. Yeah. Thanks, Brian. Thanks so much. It was such a pleasure to meet you. Thank you very much. Thank you, Brian. Thank you, Brian. See you later. Thanks, Brian. Wow. He's like the guy now. Like, he's the guy everybody talks to. Like, he's always in my feed, and I'm like, stop, and I listen to what he says in my Instagram feed. I'm really interested to see what the format of his show is. He says there's a big screen there, which I guess supports some of the answers that he's talking about. Like all the graphics. Some pictures and things like that.

1:11:57Will Arnett:Wouldn't it be cool to go? Yeah, let's do it. Let's get all gummied up and get there. Yeah. I would love that. I guess I'm driving. I would love it. I also wanted to ask him about CERN, which I didn't get to. Wait, are we allowed now to bring on academics now? Because I've got some ideas for like, you know. Of course. some smarties smarties like that again I felt like we kind of like went away from that and it was like I love that celebs only but like yeah let's bring in some like some brain food yeah I love that which is not to say our celebrities are not smart people no no no we're not suggesting that yeah but I like I like this I'll bring on some artists and some I love it yeah I love I can talk to that guy all day long the did you guys know his nightmare

1:12:45Sean Hayes:is you talking to him all day long by the way I'm sure he looks on his phone that just somehow just rang so we never got to

1:12:54Will Arnett:Tatooine is it real? yeah I know we should have him back once we all get a chance to see Disclosure Day you know I'm seeing it right after this I'm hanging up with you guys I'm seeing it yeah oh my god a matinee I love it just so you can't be just so no one bothers you right? that's exactly right you'll be alone in the theater yeah I love it

1:13:11Sean Hayes:what are you gonna eat at the theater? I'm probably gonna have some popcorn I'm gonna eat good I have to start eating better why? You got a big sex scene coming up? No, I feel like my blood is creme brulee. I texted that to you. And I think it is. Yeah. It's all fat and sugar and salt.

1:13:28Will Arnett:What is your go-to at a movie theater? You have popcorn and then you buy some candy and you like sprinkle it on top? If I could, I'd get pretzel bites with cheese. I put them in the, I dip the pretzel bites in the cheese. Yeah. That's the best. That answer was so quick. Yeah. Do you put, do you put, do you be one of those guys that likes a few pumps of butter sauce on your popcorn? A few pumps. Butter sauce, I think, was your handle in high school, right?

1:13:54Sean Hayes:A few pumps.

1:13:58Will Arnett:Butter sauce. Hey, guys, look who's coming down the hall. It's butter sauce. Here comes old butt sauce. Hey, do you, do you, what is it? What's your go-to when you, like, fucking stomach up to the old counter there? Hey, hi. Hi. in fact hey guys it's butt sauce can I get you know what I get

1:14:18Sean Hayes:I went to the movies by myself for the first time in a long time a few weeks ago oh bless I went and saw the project Hail Mary which I really liked why didn't you talk about that with Brian Cox well because we were talking about other stuff like what's real about it wasn't it good yeah so good and old Brian Gosling Brian Gosling did a great job Brian and he's so good I like that guy he's amazing he's so good and then it's our buddies Phil Lord and Chris Miller who make the movie shout out to those guys we love those guys but I went to the theater by myself to see it and I got a large popcorn with peanut M &Ms and I put them in the popcorn

1:14:55Will Arnett:the thing yeah

1:14:56Sean Hayes:that's what I do I get that I understand that

1:14:58Will Arnett:and then so did you kill that large popcorn? I sure did and can I I didn't have dinner that night yeah go ahead can I ask you if your morning routine the next day was the same?

1:15:10Sean Hayes:it was were you okay? I was okay yeah I was okay I felt I felt it when I woke up I felt it when I got out I felt super warm what do you mean felt like your stomach just the sugar and the crash of all that garbage and a large soda and I just felt crummy and I went home and I went to bed and then I woke up and I Jay did you do you usually just bring a bowl of nuts with you to the theater

1:15:33Will Arnett:I do sure it's a trail mix it's a Ziploc bag with some trail mix is that Amanda organized for you no I enjoy the popcorn I just can't have a lot of it because then it wrecks my routine in the morning, if you know what I mean. I can't do it.

1:15:48Sean Hayes:Just elaborate.

1:15:50Will Arnett:Well, it's a binder is what it is. Okay, got it.

1:15:54Sean Hayes:It's a binder.

1:15:56Will Arnett:But oh boy, I like that guest. Thank you, Sean. Yeah, I love it too. And speaking of, what does popcorn do to you? What is it? It's a real binder. Binder.

1:16:08Sean Hayes:Smart. Nice.

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