"Rachel Maddow"

25:43It's interesting. I didn't, we weren't like a kid's book kind of family. Like, we didn't have that. That wasn't the vibe. Like, my mom is from, grew up on a farm, very poor in northeastern Canada. My dad was the first person in his family to go to college. Take it easy, Will. Take it easy, Will. Take it easy, Will. We're going to pause. Your mom's Canadian? Here we go. She's from Newfoundland. She's from Newfoundland? Yes. Oh, there he goes. Oh, there, bye. I'm going to say, you know, I'm Canadian. I'm from Toronto. We're going to say hi to all our buddies out there in Newfoundland, there, buddy.

26:13Hey, there. Hey, Torbay. Hey, Gander. No way. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah, big family, lots of sisters who are nuns. She didn't want to be a nun, didn't want to be a nurse, afraid of the sight of blood, and didn't want to be a teacher, didn't much like children. So she left, came to the United States, ended up meeting my dad when he was in the Air Force. But yeah, I sort of grew up reading the newspaper and sort of was more interested in news. But then by the time I was sort of figuring out who I was in my teenage years, I was, it was like the real height of the AIDS crisis and I was coming out as gay and I was growing up in the San Francisco Bay Area.

26:51And so I kind of just like got really swept up in AIDS activism really early on. But did you guys talk about current events and stuff at the dinner table? Were you that kind of family where you talked about what was going on? No. Not really. Wasn't really like that. No. I mean, it was great. I mean, my parents are fantastic. They're my favorite people in the world. But it just wasn't that kind of a vibe. Like I think they were as surprised as I was. I also didn't start doing anything in the news media until after I was almost done with my graduate degree. I just was on a totally different plane.

27:22My first news job was I was I did an, there was an open on-air audition to be the news girl on the morning zoo radio show next to the town that I was growing up in. No way! Drive time. No way. Rachel Maddow on the morning zoo is the greatest. I was, I was news girl was my title. No way! No way! All right, we're here with the weasel and Woody and here with Rachel. Here's the girl. Wait, Sean, your dad was in the Air Force, right? Yeah. He took off real fast. No, just because he took off. Yeah, because he took off. That's why I thought that. But Rachel, what drew you to like want to even do that?

27:57What drew you to be like, oh my God, I want to be, I want to try that zoo news girl, news review, whatever that is. It was a dare. I was staying with friends. New news. I was staying with friends and I was doing odd jobs and I was terrible at all of them. I was doing deliveries but I had a car with an electrical problem. So unless I could leave my car running and it would not stall out, I needed a jump every time I needed to go to a new door. You got to park on a hill, pop the clutch. It was really bad. I had that problem too. I worked at, my friends had a coffee roasting company and I like installed some plumbing backwards in their plant and made a faucet blow up.

28:32And that didn't, like I just had a lot of really bad jobs. And so my friends who I was staying with said, oh, this morning show we listened to, they're doing this audition. and I auditioned live on the air and I got hired on the spot and started the next day. And I just loved it. Wow. I was just reading Associated Press, like Rip and Read, top of the hour news copy. And you just couldn't get enough. I want to be doing this. Yeah. That's so cool. Amazing. But then, though I'm going to jump way forward then, now flashing forward, you find yourself as a panelist on Tucker Carlson's show on MSNBC.

29:03And I don't remember him on MSNBC. You came on my radar when I was, because I was a big, big, still am, an Olbermann fan. You were on there often. But was Tucker the same Tucker back then? Or was he on the left? No. He wasn't on the left. MSNBC wasn't really. I mean, Keith is what made MSNBC liberal, right? He showed, he did great. He sort of came out as a liberal, did a great job, his incredible broadcasting talent. And he, with especially the special comments, kind of created, cut the path through the jungle in terms of making MSNBC have kind of a liberal identity. Before that, it really didn't.

29:48And so Tucker doing the late night show on MSNBC, it was like MSNBC was just politics. It wasn't any one lane in politics. I think it was, I think it might have been his immediate post-bowtie job. Like I don't, I don't think it was, I think he was post-bowtie. Post bow tie, yeah. That's the delineation. I think that he became the Tucker that we all ended up knowing when he realized how well it paid to be that guy. And I know that's a cynical thing, but I truly believe that. I don't know the guy at all, but I'm really good at judging people harshly. It's kind of a talent. You should hear me talk about Elon Musk.

30:28But I will say... I love that. I will say, let me ask you, Rachel, when it comes to Tucker, do you miss him? I'm real busy. Yeah, I know. Well, that's good. He and Bill O 'Reilly must be doing something. But thank God that Keith came along and exposed us all to you and was such a big advocate for you. So you ended up being on Keith's show quite a bit and then guest hosting for him quite a bit and enjoying it and him enjoying you and MSNBC enjoying you. And then your show took off, yes? Yeah. So it was interesting. One of the things that Keith did for me was he said, you should use my agent. And I never do that.

31:14I stop my agent from representing anybody who I compete against, but you should use my agent, which was a very generous thing. Oh, wow. She's fantastic. Her name is Jean Sage. She was my agent forever and ever and ever. And Jean convinced the president of MSNBC, Phil Griffin, to hire me. and the fact that I had done so well and perceived to have done well on Keith's show I think was absolutely the on-ramp there. But then I started at 9 o 'clock right after the 2008, or right at the 2008 election. And then that's what I've been doing ever since. Only recently did I scale back from five days to one day, but this is, we just turned 15.

31:51Yeah, that's awesome. Congratulations. What a great, great accomplishment. Yeah. Yeah, and, but now you're leaving yourself open to pursue all the many other things that you're doing with the writing and the podcasting and etc. And also finding time to live a life and fish with Susan. Yeah, trying. Right? What do you guys do you guys do something Susan is your wife. Are you comfortable telling us that it just dumbs it all down? I mean, are you waiting with bated breath for the Golden Bachelor or crap like that? I say with all respect. We are such old times. At least as much respect as you can muster for it.

32:30Exactly. What do you guys do to dumb it down? We are, are you familiar with the Great British Baking Show? Yes, of course. Yes. Yes. I think it's the greatest television show ever made, but I also haven't watched much television. No. So I don't know, but it's my perfect drug. It's my perfect entertainment. Does it get you then to the kitchen to try your talents at the same stuff? Oh, no. I can only make drinks. Oh, got it. Do you read a book while you're watching TV? What's your favorite drink? If someone's going to bring you a bottle of something as a gift, you're coming over to Rachel's house for dinner, what do they want to bring you?

33:05Is it wine? Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of in, I don't drink vodka, but other than that, I'm pretty good. Oh, really? I'm pretty equal opportunity. But, you know, I also feel like I used to be... What's the vodka story? At what point was someone holding your hair after vodka? No, I just don't like it. It tastes like a cleaning product to me. You know how, like, some people have that with cilantro? And people always say, like, oh, vodka has no flavor. I'm like, it does. And it tastes like you should be, it's under the rim. You know, it's funny. I have this image of you and your partner, Susan, because our friend Eli is a friend of all of ours.

33:37He used to always say, we'd watch you when we were in Atlanta, whatever. And he'd say, I just want to go to Rachel's house and have coffee in the morning and have her just talk me through everything that's going on. And just make me feel okay and break everything down because there's so much information. I just want her, I just want to sit on her porch. And I go, yeah, Eli, I don't think that's going to happen, buddy. but also that's not what coffee with me is like it's a pretty non-verbal experience until you don't speak until i'm into cup too you know you know what rachel you know what i find interesting what i really enjoy is watching you when you do when you're on tv and you're talking about a subject your cadence is is second to none because it's often quite broken up and you take pauses that i what i've sort of gleaned from your pauses that you're you're you're thinking which is extraordinary.

34:25Letting the teleprompter catch up though. Well, yeah. It's suggesting that there's no prompter for whatever subject that is that you're, you know, kind of musing on. And that we live in a world where people are so quick to have an answer. It's not just about being right. It's about how quick you can be right. And it's so odd. And I think it's so powerful to take a moment when you're talking about something to really, you know, think about it before you, it's kind of the thing when people say when we had Biden on last year on our podcast, the Biden, President Biden, and people say, well, you know, what was he like?

35:03And I said, you know what? He's a really thoughtful guy. And yes, he's a little bit, he's older than we are. However, I do like the idea of somebody who's in that position taking a minute to think about it when presented with a problem. And that is something that is really undervalued. And I think I see you do it in real time. And I find it very interesting. It's very powerful, right? Yeah, very well said. Well, I mean, I think it's important not to blag through stuff that you don't know. If you don't know, it's okay. Like, it better, don't make it up. It's okay. We can find somebody else who does have the answer if you don't.

35:38Yeah. But even if you're being asked your opinion on something, I think there isn't value to just like singing it out in the right tempo. You have to, there has to be a reason that you're there. There has to be a reason that you're worthy of being asked and worthy of the attention. It's why I don't put on, I never, on my shows, I never put on people to fight. Yeah. And if somebody lies on the show, I don't invite them back. that I feel like I'm offering my audience a chance to hear from somebody because I think they have something valuable to say. All right, I'll do it. Enhance our understanding of things.

36:14See, yes. Boy, you really misplayed that, Sean. She was... We'll be right back.

36:26All right, back to the show. Wait, Rachel, do you think because... And then I want to get back more to you. But do you think now is the time more than ever in a long, long time for an independent to win next year? Because it doesn't seem like what I'm feeling is people aren't excited about either side. I'm excited about one side. But a lot of the people seem like they're not excited about either side. And I thought, well, gosh, what a perfect storm for somebody to break through right in the middle and run as an independent. We really have a de facto two-party democracy, though. And so trying to bring about an independent candidacy at a practical level, all you're doing is deciding which of the two parties you want to have that proportion of the vote shaved off of.

37:12So if you bring on an independent who's going to appeal to Democratic candidates, you're just making it more likely that President Biden will lose. And if you bring on an independent candidate who's more attractive to Republicans, you're making it more likely that probably Trump will lose. So it ends up in real politic just being that. And we can reimagine the American political system using instant runoff voting and other things that are now being tried in some states so that there isn't that spoiler effect. But right now, while it exists, the only purpose of an independent candidate is to take votes away from the major party candidate who they are most like.

37:52Will there ever be a world in this country where they will blow up the electoral college, that system? Will that ever happen? Maybe. I mean, there's all sorts of counter-majoritarian things, like things in our system where the majority votes for a thing but they still don't get it, that are starting to be really, I think, over-exploited by people who want different types of minority rule. So that's gerrymandering. That's the electoral college. That's other forms of abuse of the legislative system. The ways Congress are changing, Republicans, broadly speaking, are using them in ways that are against voting at a very level.

38:32You know, like a Democrat gets elected governor of North Carolina. And so the Republicans in the North Carolina legislature take away all the powers that the governor has. Yeah. Right. Eventually, that kind of stuff reaches its limit. If we're going to be a democracy and not a country where you rule by force, then people are going to have to stand up for democracy. and that might mean the counter-majoritarian stuff like the Electoral College is going to get some pressure. And we're now seeing how vitally important it is to maintain control of the Supreme Court and what happens when you don't. Yeah, and, you know, using underhanded and duplicitous and hypocritical tactics to get your majority on the Supreme Court pays off for the life of the justices.

39:15Turns out. Well, that's a bad precedent to set because you've now set the bar that any means necessary for getting a justice onto the court is effectively justified by what the Republicans did. Right, and we're not talking about necessarily, by the way, it should be noted to our listeners who were put off by us talking in this way, we're not saying that having a conservative judge is bad. I'm really not suggesting it. If it's done within the framework of what is fair, then that's fine. What we're talking about is rigging the system to affect the outcome. And when you do that, that is not fair.

39:54That is not a democracy working at its best, functioning at its best. And you should also be opposed to that because were it to work against you, you'd feel very undermined and you'd feel very cheated and you'd feel like this has to have been abused. Unfortunately, it seems like we're having to start to sort of workshop and brainstorm what else we can do now that fair is becoming less and less common in the political space. And do we take the bait and start playing by their rules and thus sacrificing our own values and ethics? Or do we continue on the high road and get comfortable with the losses?

40:34You know, I just, I'm not sure what the future is going to hold for that. I feel like the lesson of history here is to have, like, one lodestar, which is protect democracy. And that means make sure that everybody knows and everybody believes and we reify every way we can that the way we solve problems in this country is through democratic process. Yeah. And anything that is about, you know, what Will was saying about the fair process of which justices end up on the Supreme Court, if you vote for a conservative president, part of what you are voting for is if there is a vacancy on the Supreme Court while that president is in his office, that president will appoint a conservative to the court.

41:16Or, conversely, with a liberal. Right. You are voting for a liberal president. It is with the understanding that if there's a vacancy, there'll be a liberal appointee. When that system gets broken, you are separating outcomes from the vote and you are making people feel like the vote doesn't matter. And in fact, you are making it so their vote doesn't matter, which means our democracy is getting weaker. Whatever, whoever wins or loses any particular fight, the connection between people's desire and the outcomes they get from their government should always be the lodestar. Because that's the thing that's under assault from people who want authoritarianism and rule by force instead of rule by vote.

41:48That's right. And so to that, can you, I hate for you to make a prediction, but what do you think is the life, going to be the lifespan of Travis Kelsey and Taylor Swift? Is there any way that this makes it to the playoffs? Right. I mean, I'm all into it. You know, it's a hard knock life. Really tough. He's a very large man. He's a very large target. There's a lot of ways to make him feel. So, yeah. You're good to avoid an answer on that one. Now, Rachel, I'm sure that there's a team of incredibly gifted people that you get to work with every day or maybe not every day now for your show. No, every day.

42:33Yeah. What is your favorite part? I won't ask you to take us through your entire day because I'm sure it's a lot. But is there a favorite part of the day that is potentially completely imploded when there's some breaking news and you've got to toss it all out. What's your favorite part of that collaboration? Part of the reason that I left doing five days a week and went to one day a week is that I felt like my thoughts were getting shorter, that I was starting to think in short thoughts without any. I wanted to think book-length thoughts instead of tweet-length thoughts. And so now that I have this new schedule, I'm spending a lot of time and I'm working on a lot of projects that involve me reading a lot of books.

43:14And so I'm often kind of, I look like I'm going to get smothered by a collapsing pile of, you know, books about Nazis at any time of the day. But to have to, like, dig myself out of my home library where I'm dug into, you know, something going on in the 1920s in Mexico and then have to jump into, like, wait, the bankruptcy court judge said what about Trump's Soho? Can be a little weird. Yeah, so you must have an incredible team of researchers that can keep you up to date and or answer questions when you have them about what are the legal ramifications of X, Y, or Z. I mean, it's probably never ending.

43:55Well, MSNBC made a good decision. I mean, in the Trump era, everybody in the news had to become like a jailhouse lawyer. Like we all had to learn. You mean the same way that we all became medical experts through the pandemic? Yes, exactly. We all developed ersatz expertise. But MSMDC did a really good thing, and they hired a bunch of lawyers, both as on-air correspondents but also as off-air consultants to help us process and understand and be correct about analyzing. It used to be just Supreme Court decisions you'd have to deal with or an occasional true crime thing that captured people's attention.

44:32Now it's the president potentially going to jail in four different jurisdictions. you need to know you need to know a lot more with a lot more specificity you might enjoy this this is a little bit of a tangent we can always cut it about six months ago I was in Atlanta with Eli we got into an argument at breakfast over there at the OK Cafe which is a terrific time picturing you and Eli in an argument is already funny yeah and our buddy Bob and we were sitting there and I said I made the point that was Chappie not there? no Chappie was not there he was at Landfield with Jurgen Klopp and I brought up the point that ignorance of the law is never a defense as you might know Rachel you know that probably and it's just not Eli and I went back and forth so I ended up calling Jeff who who's I work with who's also an attorney he agreed with me Eli said well I don't think he really knows eh and like Eli's from Halifax so then we called my dad who's retired for many years And my dad said, well, actually, Willie, yeah, you're right.

45:34It's not ever a defense and et cetera. Eli didn't believe me. So we had a little bit of time. Eli went to the bathroom. Bob goes on, what's that, cameo. Sure. Oh, God. And he finds out that for$100, we can get Alan Dershowitz to do a cameo. So we put in the message. He said, hey, everybody, just graduating from law school. It's kind of an inside joke. tell everybody, Eli, about whether or not ignorance of the law is a defense. And Alan Dershowitz does this fucking cameo within 20 minutes that we sent to Eli. In the job. By the way, he did it from his home. Within 20, we're still in the argument.

46:17And he gets an email from Alan Dershowitz saying that it's never... How fucking great is that? So what did Alan say in the cameo? He said, you know, I was just getting a massage. I just... I never took the clothes off. These are quotes. Well, what a cameo. And, but he agreed with it. He said it's never, you know, ignorance of the law is never a defense. Whether or not you're wearing your underpants. Whether or not you're wearing your underpants. How fucking great is that? That's very good. Anyway, sorry. We should use cameo more for inside. Stuff like, I know. For settling inside jokes and arguments.

46:52How good is that? It's a good idea. I got one once from the guy from Insane Clown Posse. Did you really? That was really good. It was thanking me for having done a thing for a pal. But it was just this magnificent font of, like, every iteration of the F word I had ever heard used every other, like, every possible way. It was, like, it was fantastic. And you did not have a beef with any of the juggaloos, right? That's what their followers are called. I'm pro-juggalo. Is that true? Yeah, it's true. Oh, yeah. I'm kidding. Do you know what it means to be anti-juggalo? Then you're very bad. Don't say that.

47:25Really? Don't say it. Rachel, when you're home and your pile of books reading and stuff, is it something you and Susan chat about? Like, do you guys like, Susan's like, hey, honey, what book did you read today? Or is it something you completely do by yourself and she does this all by yourself and then you meet for dinner at the end and you talk about the day, but you don't talk about your books? Pretty much the latter, yeah. I mean, what I do, which is a horrible thing, is that we'll be out like in the woods on a dog walk or something and I'll go, hey, do you want a Nazi story? There's always, no.

47:53No, really. This one's burning a hole in my pocket. Wait, can I tell you, please? Like, she'll occasionally indulge me, but I cannot overstate the importance of having a partner who does not value your work. I think it's really important. Jason knows. She likes me, but she doesn't care. Jason's well aware. Jason's well aware. Yeah, exactly. My daughters, they don't give it up either. They're like, they could not be less interested. It's very good for you. It's very good for you. The other day, I was with Jason and one of his daughters, who I absolutely love. And I said, Jason was like, wait, what did you say?

48:28I'm like, Jason, I texted that to you like a week ago. And he goes, and I never responded? And I go, no. And his daughter turns to me and she goes, that's okay. He never responds to my text either. Not true. I'm just. He's the worst. No, I just. You're the fucking worst. The ones that are important get the response. Tea times. Tea times. Tea times. Tea times, you've got to respond. Rachel, if you ever wanted to get a response out of Jason, you just go, how's next Thursday at 10 look for you to tee off? and then he'll answer you and then you've got him and then you say the real thing. I'm trying to stay occupied during a strike.

48:59You know, I'm trying to keep the brain fresh. Sunday dinner when I was out of town, it still happened? Dinner happened when I was out of town? Oh, sure. Yeah, life does keep going. Fuck, man. It's shocking. Rachel, we love you. We can't thank you enough. Such an honor to meet you. I can't believe I've never met you. You're so busy. No, you're so cool. Thank you for having me. You guys are really awesome and I'm very, it makes me, I have to say, just briefly, little earnestness. There's a lot of crappy podcasts that have a lot of listens in the world, and it makes me happy and heartened that you guys are so successful with this because you guys are nice and interesting and kind.

49:34And that is not usually what sells in this world. And you guys are doing, your success in this world makes me happy. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We feel the same about you. You've done so much for so many people. And I think you're doing, I think you're doing a great service to the world, so thank you. Thanks, guys. Yeah, rest up. You've got a busy year ahead of you. Thank you for spending a little time with us. Yeah, and one of these days I'm going to stop you in New York, and then we're going to have a proper meal. Just have the van pull over and then just get out. It doesn't sound less creepy.

50:07A little ether cloth. You just put it right over my nose and throw me in the van. That's how everybody else does it. That's hysterical. Enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you, Rachel. Thank you so much. Great to meet you. Thank you. Bye. Bye-bye. Wow, JB. Well, that was... Yeah, that was a good one. That's the first time my pit started sweating before we started the podcast. Yeah, I was a little nervous, too. But you didn't even know who it was, did you? No, when she came on, I was nervous. Oh, yeah. When she came on, I was like... That was all-star shit. Right? She's so fucking smart. It's so scared to ask anything that you're going to...

50:40Because I'm going to sound like a dumb shit. Well, but I mean, that's... I think... You don't need Rachel Maddow for that, Sean? Well, we have the title of the podcast to cover all that. You know, we're not claiming to be investigative journalists. Nobody's having us on MSNBC, okay? That's true. But I'm so glad the way that that went because I knew that, obviously, it's kind of baked in that it's going to be political, and we try not to be overly political on this show. So it was nice to have a conversation with somebody who is so political to have it not be, you know, kind of burn it all down.

51:12Well, and also not just political but also really fucking smart. Yeah, really smart. And also, like, as I said in the thing, it's like, it's not left versus right and right versus left. It's really more about everybody's entitled to have their thing. Yeah, it's just about, like, let's cracking it open. People like her crack it open and shed light on it and go, this is actually not the way this is. This is not actually quite fair. Let's look at it and be honest about it. That's it. That's it. That's it. Yeah. And she does make the medicine go down real easy, too. I just love the way she shapes stories and points of view.

51:49And she helps my brain get a little bit calmer based on the way that she's able to articulate some of the stuff that's going on and maybe some of the things we might need to watch out for. You watch her every night or when she's on? When she's on, yeah. But I'm watching Nicole Wallace and Chris Hayes. I know. How much more do you think that you could get from it if you had less gummy. What I'm trying to do is gummy to news. I'm trying to offer that. There's a combo there that I'm trying to get right. What's the right mix? What's the perfect? I'm not able to really comprehend a lot of what I'm listening to or looking at, so there needs to be a tonnage of information coming in.

52:35Your high is bejesus. It's not true, listener. He's really taking a run at me. I took one on Sunday. It was delicious and it was amazing. Did you? You had one? I had one on Sunday with Jay. Jason didn't have one. I had one. Yeah, right. No, I watched. He watched me. So you guys did have dinner on Sunday without me? Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And we do it again, too. Next time you want to go out of town and not be with us. Yeah, yeah. But you know what? To your point, Will, about the show. Here we go. Here we go. Fuck me. Nobody. See you coming a mile away. Everybody, it's like left or right. It doesn't matter.

53:15It doesn't matter where you are left or right. It's like we all have to get along. We all have to let bygones be bygones. Smart. Less.

53:32Smart. Less. Smartless is 100 % organic and artisanally handcrafted by Rob Armjarf, Bennett Barbaco, and Michael Granteri.

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