"Ronan Farrow"

27:44There was a big scene. We had to reshoot where I stand up. And I was like, well, wait a second. I don't know if I'd play the character if I knew he was faking it. And I had a phone call with Harvey Weinstein where I said to him, I said, what are the Screen Actors Guild rules? Can you really just make me reshoot a scene that changes the character completely? and now I'm a guy who's faking it. And he's like, yep, you're doing it. It's like, okie doke. We shot like 30 pages of new pages. Yeah. Jesse, was that? Yeah, Jesse Parrots directed it. The great Jesse Parrots. Wow. Yeah. Anyway, Mia was awesome.

28:23While we're on the digression, yeah, I have been trying to encourage my mom to be more game to work. I think there was a period of time where she had so many bad industry experiences and people really came after her. There was a Woody Allen bullshit. And she's such an incredible actress and because of those experiences, because she started as a kid basically and she was on Pete and Place as a teenager, she doesn't fully own her talent in the way that I hope she can. Every time she does something, people are so bowled over and it gives people so much. So yeah, so I'm kind of just trying to encourage her to own that.

29:06It's kind of absurd that you're talking about Mia Farrow. Yeah, your mom. She's one of the great actresses. Yeah, exactly. I wish she'd really get out there and realize how good she is. Yeah. Because, you know, there's someone from me who didn't grow up close to that sort of thing. Yeah, of course. Pretty cool. And you did grow up so close to that, and which must have, it's interesting that you, I mean, that you just went kind of 180 degrees away from that in a lot of ways, right? I mean, that you just went into academia. Well, I did and I didn't. I did in the practical sense of the choices that I was making, but actually the philosophical underpinning very much comes from her.

29:47She is like altruistic, I think at times to a fault. It's genuine too. It's not performative. she really is like obsessed with helping people and has probably made questionable decisions at times because of it. I mean, she adopted all of these kids with special needs, which was this beautiful, wonderful thing, but also a source of like much, much chaos in my childhood. I was just going to ask that, yeah. Yeah. So like it's complicated. Did she ever pull over and try to pick up a hitchhiker because she felt like they needed a ride and it was just a real bad decision? She was very much that kind of person.

30:23and I think it's taken a lot of being brutalized by the world to disabuse her of that. Mother, do not slow down the car. What's that? But Ronan, just from a perspective, you can talk about it as much or we can cut it or whatever, but just from a perspective of me growing up with a single mom in a large family, not nearly as large as yours, what was that like? Because I always say we kind of all had to figure out, even though we had an amazing mom like your mom, my mom was incredible too, and ran a food bank for the poor and the homeless and some of the food we got was from the food bank because we were in that situation too.

30:57So I put my mom on a pedestal too. At the same time, we had to kind of parent ourselves. And did you, growing up in such a large family, feel that sense? Because there's so many kids. You'd have to ask my different siblings about their experience of that. My perception was always, this is one of the amazing things about her, she was incredibly attentive. Like she knit every single one of us a Christmas stocking with our name on it and like a relevant graphic. You know, holidays were real rituals. So she, even in the midst of a lot of chaos and painful stuff and, you know, me getting dragged in and out of courtrooms and rammed through crowds of paparazzi and helicopters overhead, you know, to get to school.

31:43You know, there was a lot of, and also loss. I had a lot of immediate family members die over the course of my childhood. So there's a lot there that didn't work. But one of the things that did work is what you're asking about. She's an incredibly attentive mom, almost in a superhuman way. And all of that redounded to me really caring in my worldview about compassion and altruism. And look, I think there are pros and cons to this. The moral framework I was given was like, we're not really here. she would deny this, by the way, but my interpretation of it anyway is that we're, I was taught not to care about personal happiness, that the first goal was you're, you're here with privilege and responsibilities and you must work to improve the lives of others.

32:28And that is the source of true happiness. But that, that's the very long winded answer to, to your question that I wanted to do things that helped others. Well, how big is your therapist's yacht? Because you... Yeah, that's a lot of stuff. Here's the craziest thing, Will. I only did therapy for the first time other than, like, court-appointed expert stuff in my childhood, which is probably why I then didn't leap to therapy after. You would make a therapist so happy, though, because your ability to articulate your feelings And you are so beautifully vulnerable and human. And I bet you can have incredible conversations with a therapist.

33:14I mean, I've loved mine. Well, you know, I have found it late in life. Like during the pandemic, I was actually, it did take hitting a bit of psychological rock bottom. I had been driving so hard with the philosophy that we've been talking about. Like I've just got to give and give and give. And to the point I made earlier about it being a cocktail of selfish and giving instincts, like I also, I had been so scrutinized from such an early age and with so much expectation. I wanted to do things that were a 180 from my family. I wanted to be taken seriously. My early professional experiences where I'd be like talking about an infrastructure project in Pakistan and they'd like want to ask me about my family and stuff just made me very, very committed to being so, so serious and such an overachiever that I could get out of that.

34:06And it took becoming so kind of souped up and like prominent in my own right for my work, I had to be involved in these like major kind of culture shifting moments to get out of that. And then finally I could do it. I could go on a book tour and never get asked about my family. Like I did it. It had downsides though. Like, I think I, like, alienated myself from people by over-credentialing. Have you ever talked to Anderson Cooper about it? We talked to him a little bit about, like, you know, he would, he talked about going by. Because he's gay. You must know him. He's gay. You must know him. Yeah.

34:37That's what I guess. Well, we do all, I mean, I, you know, I see him and Sean at the gay, yeah, I knew it. I fucking, I fucking, hang on. Let me write this down. Let me write this down. No, but I was going to say that I remember he had a very sort of similar answer where he would say that that was the thing that was always the sort of the flag, the red flag when he was on a date, how soon somebody asked about his mom. And, of course, hilariously, he talked about how Andy Cohen, Andy asked him in like 10 seconds. So they became good friends. But, yeah, I mean, that's a difficult thing, right? Yeah, I also have, well, I also have a very, very famous friend of ours, very close that you would know.

35:21And this person comes from an extremely... I don't know. Do you know Milton Berle? This person comes from an extremely famous family that everybody knows. And this person, to your point, Ronan, would shun all questions, didn't want to talk about her family. Her identity is not that. I am this person over here. I've created this world for myself. And in doing so, through many, many, many, many years of evolution and growth, she learned the balance of embracing both. and bringing that in and not being not ashamed at all. It's your own personal identity and figuring out the path that's in the middle somewhere.

36:03I've had that journey myself. I remember vividly, so there's fame and then there's this particular sub-genre of fame that's particularly awful and enduring in a troublesome way of fame connected to generationally defining sex scandal and there's just a kind of prurience and shock element that 30 years later does not go away and i remember vividly um running into chelsea clinton at some event and this was before i you know had done a lot professionally i think it was right as i was getting i just recently met her what a what a great woman she's so so well she's probably one of the few people who has that very, very specific, awful shadow over her from childhood.

36:52And worse than me, right? Because she was in the White House dealing with and all that. But similar in some ways. And I remember this was prior to my having done any work in the world and people really only knew me through that family stuff. And someone came up at this event and was like introducing me or saying hello to me in a way that foregrounded the family stuff. like, oh, here's this Nepo baby or whatever. And she was so forceful. I don't know if she would even recall this, but clearly she had the same chip on her shoulder that I had was my reading of it, which may or may not be fair to her.

37:25But she was like, he's his own person. He's done his own things. And I'm like, Chelsea, are you talking about you? And I do think different people respond to that in different ways. But for me, I've learned the peril of that. First of all, because if you refuse to talk about it, people are just much more curious. Second of all, I think the wanting to dissociate yourself from it is very fair and understandable, but ultimately kind of finding peace in yourself does require reconciling all of those parts of you and all of those parts of your past. Yes. And drawing strength from it. Yeah, and you got to get a lot of that managed before you start what becomes your new immediate family.

38:06Yeah. And now, a word from our sponsor. And now back to the show. We all spend every single day of our lives with our mom, our dad, and our sibling until you're, you know, 18, 20, whatever it is. You move out and then you see them less. And then eventually you meet the person that becomes your everyday person, your spouse. And then you meet your kids, you know, when they're born. And you see the people you used to spend every day with maybe once or twice, three, four times a year at holidays and stuff. So how are you now transitioning into that place of family, the new meaning of family for you, for all of us as we become adult children?

38:53Do you idealize the notion of family? Talk to us about your personal life to the extent you're comfortable about. You said you want to have kids and all that stuff. Where does all that stuff sit with you right now? Well, this goes back to the joke about therapy. I did actually, there was this moment in the pandemic where, you know, the work slowed down because the world was slowing down, but the attacks were still coming. And it was like every day or at all hours getting these crazy shakedown attempts, like letter going back to the Inquirer example, like crazy letters from from the Inquirer having retained like ideologue right wing crazy lawyers who might have actually like brought a casing.

39:35You know, we're going to sue your pants off for defamation if you don't, you know, pay us like some crazy, like a joke amount, like$50 million overnight. And all of these like reputational smears and people I'd pissed off trafficking dossiers. And once in a while, they'd like make their way into the mainstream press. And it's interesting, I've since stumbled into all of this serious peer-reviewed psych literature about how attacks that threaten your core sense of identity and place in society are actually at times more ready instigators of PTSD symptoms than even threats of physical harm. that those are the ones that damage people the most.

40:19And it was helpful for me to understand that because for a long time I kind of kicked myself and beat myself up over it. Like I've been in war zones, I've been in dangerous situations, I've been followed around, but the shit I care about is like, what is page six saying, you know? But it was really hard for me. And it finally did prompt me to start working on myself. And I did some, this goes to your question of like, how do I build my adult identity and my path towards hopefully being a good partner and maybe eventually a good parent, I started putting in the work and I did a couple of years of cognitive behavioral therapy and then found a great, more traditional analyst.

41:05I think those tools can work for some people, not work for some people. There's good practitioners, bad practitioners, but I found someone great in the end And that was genuinely helpful for me. And I think part of allowing myself to work on that was not stepping away from but tempering the philosophy of like any minute I don't spend helping someone else, I am morally failing. Letting myself work for myself occasionally. And it was extra hard for me to do that as someone who had always been in the press and people having these expectations. But the example that you lived with called your mother is, you know, we always, as we get to adulthood, we go, we rebel in different ways.

41:53And some of those are like, I see what my mom did in my, I'm speaking for myself. I see what she did. I see what she did to an extreme. And again, going back to the balance thing, which is the hardest for any human to do is to balance, you know, the good from the bad. And where do I lie in between? and as much as you celebrate your mom and I celebrate my mom, there are extremes, you know, and it's okay to recognize that and go, oh, where's me in all of this? Yeah, and you find your version of their advice and their guidance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly that and like we aspire to do it better than our parents did it and we're going to fuck it up inevitably in new and exciting ways and we have to just be kind both to the parents.

42:43I think part of this path is you're not idealizing your parents, but you are greeting. There are complications with kindness and understanding. And then part of it is also being kind to ourselves as we make those mistakes. Well, you have to let yourself off the hook and you also can't let past things. You can't use, I think that one of the traps that I know that I have fallen into in the past and that I used to do more was to use those past experiences and to make myself feel shitty about it or to beat myself up about it. And believe me, if beating yourself up about it worked, I'd be cured. It doesn't work.

43:24Do you know what I mean? It just doesn't. I know exactly what you mean. I mean, I really have to work on this in an ongoing way because I have the most punishing interior voice. Just like anything I do that is not perfect, I am so cruel to myself. And I'm also like a hypersensitized person to other people, and there's different bodies of literature that categorize that in different ways, but I'm like anxiously attached. I'm a super sensitive person. So there's these studies where people who exhibit those traits, they show them like videos of a face slowly morphing from one expression to another, and they actually, they detect the change earlier than other people, but they also have an inclination to draw conclusions from that prematurely.

44:15I completely relate to that. I completely identify with that, and I call it thin slicing, and I've long felt like I have an ability to thin slice and sometimes to my own detriment. By the way, I also have a very punishing inner voice, and you're lucky because mine sounds like this. This mind is fucking right here. Mine's like you. Why am I so turned on again? By your cruel internal voice. I tell you so, you. I suspect most performers, and I'm not a performer per se, but I do, like, make a living on TV. There's a performative aspect or a communicative aspect. I think a lot of those people are probably hypersensitized in that way.

44:56And there's a nexus of the cruel interior voice and the public scrutiny and the hypersensitivity to the public scrutiny. Like I care so much what other people think. I care so much about the random Twitter cruel tweet and there's so much cruelty. I think that gets a bad rap though, you know. I think it's such a healthy thing to be, I think, aware of as opposed to concerned with. It's just semantics. How you're coming across. I mean it's certainly what the three of us do for a living with acting. That's our job. We're professional liars in the way in which we come across, right? We're trying to trick people.

45:36And so in that comes an inherent ability or need to know how you're coming across and to be concerned with whether that's an accurate perception. Well, first of all, the notion that people, when people say, and I've had it from people I grew up with who have nothing to do with entertainment and they're like, you know, they're all canadian so they all sound like this well you guys care what you look like or you care and i'm like yeah everybody does motherfucker and nice try and it's called a mirror if you have a mirror you care too there wouldn't be any store selling selling fashion and there wouldn't be any makeup for sale and there wouldn't be anything so a go fuck yourself and b yeah that's how i you know why because that's how i make my living and i get and we now live in a world where I get to hear everybody's opinion in real time from everywhere on the planet.

46:26Yeah, and it keeps you nicer if you're concerned or aware of what people think about you. I think, you know, to the extent you're able to handle it, then take it on because it keeps you kind and it keeps you aware of other people. What is it that you do? Well, this is Jason to interrupt for a moment. What you just expressed, what you have taken away from being in a firestorm of public opinion about yourself, it is not necessarily the norm. And I've seen all kinds of people who wind up very distorted by it. And it can lead to kind of more ego. But I'm fascinated by the fact that actually, to what I can observe, everyone in this group has taken from that experience all of these good, beautiful, caring things.

47:13Like, how do you do that? I mean, I hope that I'm achieving that myself, but I'm interested in how others get there. You seem self-aware. I mean, I think it's about being, first of all, it's about who you surround yourself with. Well, and also considering the sources. Like, consider the, like, anytime somebody writes a horrible thing about me, there's been tons of stuff my whole life. Yeah. It's like you go, at some point, you know, when you're much younger, I was like, oh my God, I'd cry and crawl in a corner. And I'm like, oh, that person is miserable. Not me. When you were talking about your scary voice inside that chastises you, what is the thing that wakes that monster up the most?

47:50What do you do that most disappoints you? What's your dumbest shit? Because you're such a smart, insightful guy. I can't imagine you doing something that would really warrant a real talking to. It's a good point. Yeah, it is almost always not rational. and I've been shielded both by my I think generally good strong moral code and instincts and also surrounding myself with other people who have those qualities like I've had points in my career very prominently where I've been with very craven corporate power hungry people who when the rubber meets the road and there's a tough story unfolding they're awful.

48:38They're cowardly and it's so disillusioning and disappointing. But I have over time been able to refine the sort of chosen family professionally, not just personally, to include more people who are sort of big minded, big hearted, have good values and have good systems for enforcing those values. So like the New Yorker is this magical esoteric place where all of these like intellectuals with tons of virtue, not that they get it perfectly right all the time, of course, it's human beings, but I have been so impressed, even in cases where there's a disagreement about a story and I'm the reporter saying, like, I've worked on this for months, I want to get it out, here are all the arguments, why?

49:16The counterarguments are always rooted in, like, good journalistic ethics. So I've been protected by that from the real mistake, like there haven't been inaccuracies in the story, even when the stories, when they're under attack. It's withstood all of that. and I have gradually come to trust myself more and be less punishing because I've seen over time that I do make good decisions. And I think I am increasingly trusting of the idea that I can pull off both. I can scrutinize my decisions and learn each time to be better without being punished. But you don't have one reoccurring blind spot. Like you're always an angry driver and you're mad at yourself or honking at everyone.

50:00Jason, what are the things that you beat yourself up about? And let me guess the first five. Yeah, I'm curious about this, Tim. First five? The first five you should. I guess. Let me rephrase. How did I write this down? I had said, Jason, here is my list of things you'd like to talk to me about. Side zoom. Fucking massive. With all, you know, you're just amazing. Your brain is gorgeous and beautiful. You're gorgeous and beautiful. As is your skin and your hair. Christ. Everything. The fucking lips on him and everything. I know. It's kind of incredible. The whatnot? Can I just spend more time with this group, please?

50:44It's true. I just got a call from HR, by the way.

50:50Wait, I have a question. By the way, an aside on that, I've had work situations where, I guess, ironically given some of the work I've done on sexual harassment and stuff, where I'm getting that treatment, I'm getting objectified, and I'm just not a self-actualized enough person to not like it a little. I'm actually like, you know what, I'm cool with this. Tell me more. I like this. I've gotten so much more validation over the years for just the intellectual stuff that being a piece of meat is great when it happens. Well, when you get into litigation, let the record show sean started it yeah yeah so wait no so i actually to that point right with the intellectual stuff and all that and all that fuels your the fire in your belly and you continue to do all that stimulates that gorgeous brain of yours what what beyond of that uh that excellent work in your life excites you what outside of all this when are you silly what do you let it go all that kind of stuff are you a video gamer like what do you do i i am yeah i so it actually took me a lot of time to understand that that that stuff i mean this goes back to the broad philosophical conversation right that that a life that's just about the work i mean i missed every major friend's wedding because i was like off interviewing a warlord that's an actual thing that happened but i'm so sorry to my friend jen's wedding i was supposed to sing out and then i missed completely to go interview general dostum in afghanistan um like i made that choice every time and now i am making the choice to do the fun stuff, to just find joy and yet keep the work going and have the work be informed by that.

52:29I think if you're kinder to yourself, you can be kinder to others. So yeah, I love being social. I mean, I like going deep with small groups and one-on-one, but I also love like, I love video games. I love all nerd culture. I love sci-fi. I do too. I love reading. Here comes Sean and Scotty. I read all the time. Are you a gamer, Sean? No, not a gamer. Huge sci-fi. Yeah, Sean and Scotty, they have Star Trek Night. It's Star Wars, how dare you? You would. Yeah, I'm more a Star Wars guy, and I really admire the worldview of Star Trek kind of more, that it's more about intellectual curiosity, but I haven't taken the time to dig deep.

53:12I haven't seen a lot of it, but let me guess. The good guys win? I mean, Jesus. says the guy with the gravelly voice and the mustache I want to start with all the old Shatner stuff I want to really go back and take the time on that at some point well we're 16 minutes over here I apologize but I could talk to you for a whole day and I really am sincerely such a fan of all of yours Jason I remember watching the pilot of Ozark I guess it was a series order so I'm using the term pilot reflexively, the first episode that you directed and my ex turning to me when your name came up in the credits and being like, is Jason Bateman one of our great living directors?

53:57Is he like one of the best working TV directors we have? Yes, I can ask. My name came up and he said, really? I think he might be. I had to discover that over the time that you were that too. It took a village, thank you. The first episode of The Outsider. Every time I see you directing something, I'm like, how are you so good at that? very kind yeah very kind well yeah something sinks in after a while and surround yourself with good folks and there you get it yeah yeah well here's to more of that for all of you and thank you for being so kind in this conversation oh it was so easy thank you for joining us yeah so great talking to you and meeting ronan thank you we appreciate you so much for being here and i hope thank you pal i hope i get to see on the streets of new york again yeah i hope i get to yeah i'd love to meet you in person yeah i'd love that too bye guys all right enjoy your day You too.

54:47Thanks, Ronan. Well, another boring prick that just is no charm and doesn't know how to talk. We got to start booking better guests. Could have kept talking to Ronan Farrell. That guy. Could have just kept talking to that guy. I'm real sweet on that fella. Handsome. Smart. Let me tell you something. Amanda's in a lot of trouble. I know. She's in a lot of trouble. Why? Sorry. Why? I just found myself really enjoying his company. Okay. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. No, that's a real interesting fella right there. Yeah, agreed. I cannot believe the guy went to college at 11. When you said, are you kidding? And I almost said, like, of course he's fucking kidding.

55:31Wait, he's not kidding. Not kidding. 11 years old and barred, 15 at Yale. I mean, incredible. That's amazing. Oh, my Lord. Can you imagine? Hey, guys. Anybody going to the frat party? Like, 15 years old. Yeah. Yeah, well, good for him. Sean, I didn't know you did impressions. That was a college. Yeah, that was fantastic. Hey, guys. That was a college. Hey, guys. Hey, what's the big idea? I'm going to bust this joint up. You sound like you guys from a 30s film. I want a hamburger sandwich. Now, Willie, you're there in Atlanta. I see you're in... Yeah, and be sure to hang out to your sales receipt.

56:12What do you got the rest of the day out there, Willie? Really? Well, uh... Oh, we got another record later on. We do. I got some hockey later on after. I've already been to the gym. Really sorry about the Kings waxing your dumbass maple leaves the other day. It's Leafs, you fucking dick. What did I say? Did I say maple leaves? Leaves. The leaves. It's plural. He was doing plural. Leaves. All the players are the leaves. Yeah, exactly. That is the plural, okay? Plural is... And it was a battalion in the Canadian Army, World War I. on Maple Leaf Battalion. That's why Conn Smythe named them the Maple Leafs.

56:49If you had a bunch of Maple Leafs exiting the team bus, how would you write that? L-E-A-F apostrophe S? No. Or no, you wouldn't use the apostrophe. You just have the S. Yeah. Would it be leaves or would it be V or F? Leafs. The Leafs. With what letter? S. No, with an F or a V? F. Huh. I don't know if that's correct. Says it on the jersey. I think they spelt it wrong. Well, that's because it's plural. But if you had like three... And it's a proper name. It's a proper noun. That's why? They created a name. Yeah. But if you had like three of something, you'd call it try. And if you had two of something, you would call it...

57:27Bye. Bye. Bye. Also, if you went both ways. Smart. Less.

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