The Psychology of Infidelity & How to Improve Your Executive Function

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0:47And I found that once you actually see the numbers, you look at your money differently. If you've ever wondered, where exactly is all my money going? I think you'll find Monarch pretty eye-opening. Write your own money story with Monarch. Use code SYSK at Monarch.com to get your first year of Monarch Core half off at just$50. That's 50 % off your first year at Monarch.com with code SYSK. Today on Something You Should Know, why is it hard to tell when your own hearing starts getting worse? Then, infidelity. When a partner cheats, it can be devastating to the relationship. For some people, when they discover that their partner has been unfaithful, they assume that it's because there is something wrong with themselves.

1:44They're not attractive enough. Or it's because they don't have a good enough personality. And in many cases, that's not true. Also, why does the end of a task always seem to take longer than the beginning? and understanding and improving your executive function. What is it? It's the brain system that you use every day. It's the system that allows you to plan ahead, to focus attention, resist impulses, regulate emotions. The way I think about it is it's the brain's control system. All this today on Something You Should Know. There's probably no better endorsement for a company than this. I keep buying their stuff.

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3:58Something You Should Know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. I'll bet that you know someone who you suspect doesn't hear as well as they used to. And I bet that person says, oh, no, no, no, no. Their hearing is just fine. It happens all the time. And it's what we're going to dive into first today. I'm Micah Ruthers. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Most people assume that they would know immediately if their hearing started to decline. But surprisingly, they often don't. Hearing loss usually happens so gradually that your brain quietly adapts to it over months or years.

4:47Instead of noticing that sounds are disappearing, you simply get used to asking people to repeat themselves, or you turn up the TV a little louder, or you believe everyone else has started mumbling. Audiologists say it's often a spouse, friend, or family member who notices the problem first. That's one reason why regular hearing checks are important, even if you think your hearing is fine. Catching hearing loss early can make treatment much more effective and may even help reduce the risk of cognitive decline later in life. And that is something you should know.

5:27Infidelity is one of those things almost everyone has an opinion about. The assumption is usually that people cheat because they're unhappy, their relationship is broken, or they're simply bad people with poor self-control. But what if those explanations barely scratch the surface? What if the real reason people betray someone they love has more to do with hidden processes in the brain than conscious choice? In fact, the science of infidelity may reveal something much bigger, not just why people cheat, but why any of us sometimes make decisions that go against our own values and best interests.

6:09Here to explain is Dr. Glenn Hutchinson. He's a clinical psychologist, behavioral researcher, and author of the book Unfaithful Minds, the Science and Psychology of Infidelity. Hey Glenn, welcome to Something You Should Know. Thank you for having me. So first, how big an issue is this? How often do people cheat? So the estimates have been over the years have been all over the place. The best numbers that we have are that about 25 % of men and about 20 % of women will at some point during their marriage act unfaithfully, have some kind of sexual encounter with another person. But again, those numbers, nobody has a great deal of confidence in them.

6:55Because when you do surveys, the numbers can be highly variable. Are there as many reasons people cheat as there are people who cheat? Or does it really boil down to a few main reasons that people are unfaithful? Yeah, so the answer to your question is both yes and no. So there are some big reasons, but every case is different. So the big reason that you see when, again, and there have been some really good surveys that were anonymous and representative samples. Women, when they are unfaithful, they report that it is usually report that it's because there was something at home that they weren't getting that like in terms of emotional connection with their husbands.

7:41For men, it's usually a sexual opportunity that they're seeking. and so those are those are your two big reasons that are consistently that people consistently find in the research now when you see couples the stories are very different they're all highly individual and there are many factors that played a role in each individual case so they they all look very different at the level that I work at where I'm actually working with individuals who are struggling to try to make sense of it and figure out what to do about it. Figure out what to do about it when the other partner doesn't know, or only after it's been uncovered that it becomes an issue for you to get involved in?

8:28Both. So I do actually have seen many people who were having an affair and their partner did not know. But I, of course, see many people, probably more people who come in because they've gotten caught and they are either seeking support just because there's so much anger and dissension at home, or sometimes they're really perplexed. Sometimes people surprisingly don't feel like they have a good handle on why they allowed themselves to do this. You know, fully half of men, really maybe a little more, who are unfaithful, say that they were happy with their marriage right up until the time that they were unfaithful.

9:12And so some of these guys, you know, they're kind of scratching their heads and wondering how they did this thing that was so destructive. So there are people come in for all different reasons, sometimes before they get caught and sometimes afterwards. words. Typically, would you say, how fatal is infidelity to a relationship? How often does, is it just too much to bear? So this is one of those things that I think, you know, clinicians have to be very careful offering an opinion about, because I know that there are people who, as soon as they hear that their spouse cheated, they just walk out the door and never come back.

9:55But I don't see them, right? I see the people whose partners have stayed, and they are trying to work it out. They're trying to understand what happened. Now, I do occasionally see somebody who comes in and says, well, you know, I'm trying to figure out what happened, and my partner left me a year ago because she discovered I was having an affair. But that's pretty rare. So again, And my experience is mostly with the people who still have a chance of maintaining their relationship and they want to do so. It's hard for me to know what percentage of all cases of infidelity that is. How often with men do you think or do you see where there's no real necessarily some huge underlying problem?

10:45It was just a variety issue. They wanted to, you know, see what other people thought of them kind of thing. Very often. It's for men. They're very often happy with their marriage, but they have an opportunity for some kind of sexual experience with someone that they are attracted to. And they just get caught up in that. and it was not their intention to destroy their marriage. And so I think it's a very common thing, particularly for men. Now, I don't want to exaggerate the differences between men and women on this, because the truth is that many women who are unfaithful, they also report that they were happy with their marriages up until the time that they had the affair.

11:35But it's smaller, So it's more than half of men say that they were happy with their marriage up to the time they were unfaithful. And just a little under half of women say that. You know, I'm curious how our culture in the West, how our attitudes about infidelity and how horrible it is to a marriage, how it compares to other cultures. Writers like Esther Perel, who's a very popular author, you know, notes that most cultures are better than our culture at tolerating sexual indiscretions and being able to move forward. I would say, however, here's the thing that I don't think anybody in any Western culture is okay with, and maybe not in any culture, and that is the deception component of it, right?

12:26Because the deception isn't just about sexual infidelity, it's about trust. And when you undermine trust, that is very destructive. In the relationships that Esther Perel talks about, she has in mind that they've sort of come to some kind of agreement. So as long as people are acting within the parameters of that, then there's not a violation of trust. But that seems to be pretty rare. and I think the statistics actually indicate that in North America, in the United States and Canada, that's actually quite rare. There actually is a sizable percentage of people who say that in theory that is their ideal kind of relationship, but very few people who are married are actually in that kind of relationship.

13:15There are many people who date who are in that kind of relationship, but far fewer who are actually married who have an agreement that, that, um, you know, they can have sex with other people. I've always heard the argument when this comes up that someone will say, well, you know, men in particular are not monogamous by nature, that this is, this is very common because men are looking to make babies and populate the planet and to force men to be with one person for the rest of their life is not natural. To which you would say what? Yeah, I would say that there's some truth in that for both men and women.

13:58And the motivations are different. But if you look at it from an evolutionary standpoint, both men and women have motivations to develop relationships, sexual and emotional with other people. The motivations, according to evolutionary theory, are different. But nevertheless, both sexes do have that motivation. You know, so one of the reasons that people are unfaithful is that we evolved over eons, right? And so we have many different systems in our brain, like sex drive and a need for emotional connection and, you know, hunger and thirst and all kinds of things that are necessary for our survival.

14:48And most of these things operate on an unconscious level. Most of the activation in them occurs unconsciously. And sometimes we become aware of the product of one or another of these systems, like, okay, hey, I'm thirsty. We become aware of that, but we don't see the process that led to that sensation. And so, I'm sorry, Helen Fisher was a prominent biological anthropologist, and she said that while many different systems in our brain no doubt contribute to our romantic and sexual behavior, if you want to understand this part of a person's life, you really need to pay attention mostly to three systems.

15:28One of them is sex drive, and that is just the part of our brain that causes us to want to have sex. Another is romantic love or infatuation, and that's the part of our brain that makes us feel like we have a crush on somebody or that we are in love with them. And the third one she was referring to is long-term attachment, and that's a system in our brain that causes us to have a deep sense of connection to somebody. It's the kind of connection that makes us feel secure and have meaning in our life. And we can't imagine being without them, but it's not as exciting as being in love, right? So Fisher's point was that these systems evolved for different purposes at different times, and they still operate largely independently.

16:14So if a person has a healthy long-term attachment to their spouse and they want to spend the rest of their life with them, that will not stop the sex drive system in their brain from causing them to experience intense sexual desire for an attractive stranger. And a lot of people get that, but what comes as more of a surprise to many people is that having a healthy long-term attachment kind of love with your spouse also may not stop your romantic love system from causing you to experience a crush or have a crush on somebody. So you meet people, or in my profession anyway, who've been married for a long time, decades.

16:56They love each other, but they would also tell you that one or both of them have periodically had pretty intense crushes on other people. So because we have these different systems in our brain, they operate relatively independently, they do what they do, which is what they've done to help us survive for hundreds of thousands of years. And by the way, they don't care what our 21st century moral values are. That's not a part of, not their interest. So they cause us to want things that may not at all be consistent with our values or what we consciously think we should, you know, what we think consciously want to do.

17:37You know, I'm really curious to hear your advice when somebody comes into your office and says, you know, I've had an affair, my partner doesn't know about it, don't think they'll ever fight out about it, should I tell them? And I want to know what your advice is in that situation. And we'll discuss that when we come back in just a moment. A big thank you to today's sponsor, Vinted. I think most of us have what I call someday clothes. I'll wear that someday. That'll fit better someday. Someday I'll have a place to wear that. Meanwhile, it's been hanging in the closet for three years. Vinted offers another possibility.

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19:33and how you listen. Live your story with Coach. Learn more at coach.com. We're talking about infidelity with Dr. Glenn Hutchinson. He is a clinical psychologist, behavioral researcher, and author of the book Unfaithful Minds, The Science and Psychology of Infidelity. So Glenn, if someone's having an affair, or had an affair, or had a fling, you know, it didn't last long, it's over, and they come to you and say, you know, I did this, you know, my wife will never find out or my husband will never find out. Should I just move on or should I tell them and should we get into this? What do you say? So that's a conversation that comes up all the time, right?

20:17And it depends on a number of factors. I mean, the first thing that I would say to somebody in that situation is, are you sure they're never going to find out because these things have a way of coming out, right? And here's what I also tell people is, and again, it depends on your spouse, it depends on you and many things. But there are many spouses who if you go to them, and you are contrite, and sincerely regret what you did, you guys may be able to work through this. And then you can have a really great connection in the future. But if you don't tell them, and they discover it some other way, then there's going to be no trust, right?

21:04Because not only did you do it, but you didn't tell them about it. And so if there's any chance, any meaningful chance that they are going to find out about it some other way, then the thing to do is to talk about it with them. In most cases, if you really want to have a clear conscience and have the ability to have a really close emotional connection with your spouse in the future, then the thing to do is come clean about it. What in your work, what is it about this whole topic that you think people maybe don't get, don't understand? Is there anything or it is what it is? I mean, someone's cheated on their spouse and there are ramifications to that.

21:49When you really look at how many cases of infidelity come about, that is what leads to them, I think it can take the edge off of the pain for some people. And that is because, I mean, it's always going to be painful, but for some people, when they discover that their partner has been unfaithful, they assume that it's because there is something wrong with themselves. They think that it's because they're not attractive enough, or it's because they don't have a good enough personality, or they might think that their partner no longer loves them. And in many cases, that's not true. When you get into, and I think the more that people understand about how behavior arises, and we were just talking about that, like Helen Fisher's theory and the fact that we have these processes that operate unconsciously in our heads.

22:47When you come to understand that and really sort of assimilate that into your picture of the world, I think it can take the edge off of the pain. It feels less personal in a certain sense, meaning it's not because you did something wrong or there's something wrong with you. It's just simply, you know, this person, they had this temptation and they did not restrain themselves. And that's another matter. But it wasn't aimed at you. And I think that that is a very important thing for people to understand. When we talk about infidelity, we kind of lump all infidelity into one category. But there are different kinds of infidelity in this sense.

23:34There's the one night stand where just things happened, got out of control. And then there's an affair where you have a real relationship with somebody else. Do you look at those two differently or is the betrayal the same so the crime is the same? Well, I try not to judge one as more morally acceptable than the other. But here's what I do think. Nine times out of 10, the one night stand is a lot easier for a couple to get past because there's not a relationship. And so the partner who finds out about it, they, you know, in most cases, they can see that this was like this one off thing. You were at a convention.

24:19You met some stranger. She was hot. And, you know, and the partner is furious about it. And they should be. But they don't feel like, OK, my husband's in love with somebody else. And he's not in love with somebody else. If, you know, when there's really an affair, then it is. I mean, there are people, I mean, some people get caught and they're not even sure if they want to stop having the affair. Maybe they want to get divorced. So, yeah, it's generally a much greater threat, a much more difficult thing for a couple to recover from. When somebody comes into your office because they've cheated or a couple comes in because they got caught, how often is it the first time?

25:06Well, often is it the first time? That's a good question. I see a mix of that. Are there a lot of serial cheaters or is it really kind of a rarer, more rare thing than that? Yeah, there's both. And I do see those as different things from the standpoint of their partner, right? Right. So there are there are many people who cheat once they have one night stand and they're horrified and can't believe they did it and feel really guilty and they don't ever do it again. On the other hand, there are people who are serial cheaters and there are some risk factors for this. Um, one of them is, is that for, for people who had lots of sexual partners before they got married, um, they, they're, it's, uh, it's normal for them to periodically establish new romantic and sexual relationships.

26:06So, um, they may be at higher risk. I recently in my practice had a guy kind of like this come in. He was in his mid thirties, good looking, successful guy. he'd had dozens of sexual partners since he since his teenage years and he was finally dating someone he wanted to marry and he was smart enough to come in he said you know uh i i really love this woman i want to be married to her but you know i've been i've been out there a long time am i ever going to be able to not get into that mode for him it was like there was this whole mindset he could get into and he it was just the chase right and that was exciting and he was smart enough to know there are a lot of things that can just sort of make my mind go there.

26:48And am I going to be able to be faithful? Is it even realistic for me to do that? To which you replied, said it's going to be a challenge. The fact that you do have an established pattern of this kind of behavior means that you are going to feel tempted to do that probably a lot more often and more intensely than other men. But I affirmed that his concern was quite legitimate. Well, it sounds like from listening to you talk for the last 20 minutes, it sounds like you're hopeful that infidelity is not necessarily fatal if a couple wants to get past it, depending on a lot of things, but that there is hope if the goal is shared and the goal is to move on and live happily ever after.

27:40I've been speaking with Dr. Glenn Hutchinson. He is a clinical psychologist, a behavioral researcher, and author of the book Unfaithful Minds, The Science and Psychology of Infidelity. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Glenn, this was really insightful. I appreciate you spending the time. I appreciate it. Take care. Pink Panther is here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences and personalized products.

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28:45Ever walk into a room and forget why you came in? Or misplace your keys even though you just had them? Or blurt out something and immediately wish you could take it back? Or find yourself staring at your computer unable to focus on the task that's right in front of you? Those aren't just random lapses. They all point to the same thing, something in your brain called executive function. It's the system that helps you plan, focus, remember, control impulses, and make good decisions. When it's working well, you hardly notice it, but when it isn't, life can get surprisingly difficult. Here to explain what executive function is, why it sometimes lets us down, and what you can do to make it better is Adrian Owen.

29:32He is a professor of cognitive neuroscience at the University of Western Ontario and author of a book called Think Before You Think, Understanding and Mastering Executive Function. Hi, Adrian. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Hi, thanks very much for having me on. So first, let's define executive function. What is it exactly? That's a really great question because there really is no universal agreement about how many executive functions there are and what they are. Broadly speaking, it's the brain system that you use every day, but hardly anyone will have heard of it. So it's the system that allows you to plan ahead, to focus attention, resist impulses, regulate emotions.

30:21The way I think about it is it's the brain's control system. So it's not the part of the brain that does automatic things like seeing or hearing or moving, even understanding. But it's the part that you deploy in order to improve your ability to plan, to think ahead, to remember something you specifically want to remember. So to take control of, if you like, lower brain functions. Do we know where the term came from and who came up with it? Because it sounds kind of like, well, if you're not an executive, this doesn't apply, but clearly it does. But why is it executive function? Yeah, I looked into this.

31:04And actually, I think it was first mentioned as a word in the 1970s by a psychologist called Karl Prüberham. And the idea, I think, was taken from some early computing terminology at the time. So it wasn't really executive in the sense of a person, but rather the executive controller of a really complex machine. And so what do we know about it? Why do we talk about it? It comes up a lot in conversations, certainly in people I interview with. The term often comes up, so it must be important. But why is it so important? You know, it's enormously important. I started studying this as a graduate student back in the late 1980s.

31:57And I've been working on executive function ever since. And honestly, back then, nobody would use that term. Nobody knew what it meant. It wasn't a term that was in common usage. And you're absolutely right. I see this all the time. I have patients who come to me and say, I've been told my mother's got problems with executive function or my kid's misbehaving at school and he's got disexecutive function. It's terminology that's everywhere. So if you think about your brain, most of the time it's operating on autopilot. Imagine you see a familiar face, somebody you know. You don't decide to recognise that person.

32:41Your brain does that for you automatically and it's very convenient that that happens. Anybody listening to me speaking right now, you're also understanding what you're hearing automatically. You can't decide to not understand me and that's because what we call language comprehension or your ability to understand spoken language is something that the brain does automatically. And that's true of most of our functions and that's where in fact most of neuroscience has focused in the last 30 years or so. But the important thing about executive functions are they are the way or the mechanism that the brain has for taking control of these things.

33:25So it's the difference between automatically recognizing a face and seeing a group of people and deciding that you're going to recognize one of the faces in particular. It's the process that allows you in a crowded room when you're having a conversation with the person next to you to tune that out and actually tune into a conversation going on on the other side of the room. That's attention which is a another very important executive function. It's also the the part the part of your brain or the brain system that allows you to not only respond emotionally in a situation but to decide what that response should be.

34:10So the example I often use when I'm teaching executive function is you imagine that you were confronted in a dark alleyway by a would-be assailant. You can be scared and that's something that you can't really control. But what you can do is you can control your responses to that you can look at the situation decide well is there a way out of this situation you could turn and decide to run you could stand and desert you could say stand your ground as it were and decide to fight there are many different options that you have and I think what executive function does is it provides us with those options in any complex situation, whether it's dealing with an assailant in a dark alley to raising our kids.

34:59It's about making decisions and taking options, taking control of your brain's autopilot, if you like. So we all have executive function. Is it something that is static or you can make it better or things affect it or what? That's a really great question. And I think something we've looked at in my lab over the years is how you can train these things. Can you get better? And there are certainly some ways in which you can get better at certain components of executive functions. So if you take working memory, for example, or which is really what we now used to call short-term memory, But it's the idea of holding on to something in your mind for as long as you need it.

35:51That's something you can certainly get better at. I don't think you can get better at just sort of exercising your brain. What you can do is you can develop strategies for improving it. And one of the arguments that I've made is that the strategy that you can use that makes the biggest difference is just to think about what you're thinking. So instead of just letting your mind wander on autopilot and remember this, perhaps remember that, forget this, forget that, decide what it is you want to remember. And just that simple act alone will improve your memory for the things that are important in life.

36:32And I think that cuts across almost all of our executive processes. It's using the executive functions that you have to improve the brain functions that you already possess. So short answer to your question is no, I don't think you can easily improve them in the way that you can get fitter on an exercise bike and improve your stamina or whatever. But I think you can improve how you use your executive functions. And do things like stress and sleep or lack of sleep affect it, or it pretty much runs on its own and maybe you can make it a little better? That's a really interesting question. And in fact, the reassuring news is that there isn't one magical solution.

37:23Executive functions are influenced by lots of different aspects of our lives. Small changes in lots of areas are going to be more effective than trying to find a single brain hack. Now, this is why we've published a lot of data on this in the past. This is why commercial brain trainers do not work. They may make you really good at playing commercial brain trainers, but they're not going to spill over into other aspects of your life. They're not going to make you smarter, if you like. I'm not familiar with the term commercial brain trainer. Brain training systems that you pay for, you know, online games.

38:01There are many enormous companies that offer to make you smarter by playing their games for 15 minutes every day. And we've shown in a very carefully controlled series of studies involving more than 11 ,000 people that these things generally do not work. They'll make you good. You know, if they train you on remembering numbers, you'll get better at remembering numbers. but you'll be no better at remembering letters or remembering words or remembering faces. But as you've suggested, exercise, sleep, stress, all of these things do have small effects on our ability to perform our executive functions.

38:39I mean, sleep is a very good example where, again, we had a study of, I think, about 15 ,000 people. We looked at their sleeping habits and how their executive functions were affected the next day. And, you know, these people were no worse at remembering things after perhaps four hours sleep but they were very bad at making decisions and that's a I think that's a really good example of where executive function comes in and why it differs to many other brain functions so you know if you want to be sure to you know remember to sign that document first thing in the morning if you've only had four hours sleep it's probably not going to have a huge effect but if you need to decide whether to buy this house or that house or whether to invest in a new opportunity or whether to make a big decision in life, you probably shouldn't do that on four hours of sleep.

39:33So these things that make up executive function, do you find huge differences in people? And if so, why are there huge differences in people? Or are people pretty much on the same level? No, there are huge differences in people. And I think it would be it would be naive to assume that we are all exactly the same. And for exactly the same reason that it would be naive to say that we are all equally fit. But that's not the same as saying, for example, somebody is more intelligent than somebody else. I think executive function really is something that's quite different to general intelligence. And the important part is that there are many different components of executive function.

40:20I've talked about working memory already, there's attention, our ability to attend to certain things and ignore other things. There's what we call emotional regulation, our ability to control how we respond to particular type of emotional situations. another executive function I discuss in the book is called is known as theory of mind which I haven't talked about yet but that's my ability to understand what another person is thinking when I'm interacting with them and that's terribly important in in in every social situation now what we know about executive functions is that all each of these functions is located if you like or is driven by a different set of brain regions or networks and what that means is that you could be good at one and bad at something else and we've all heard the old sort of idea of the absent-minded professor and I think there's a lot of truth in that that you can excel in in one area you maybe have an excellent memory but you put yourself into a town you've never been to before and you'll get lost very quickly.

41:34And so, yes, people do vary, but they vary across executive functions in that you can be better at one and not as good as at another. But the person who, the absent-minded professor who remembers things but goes to a town and gets lost, can he say, I'm going to get better at this and try to improve his ability to go to a town and not get lost, or he's always going to go to a town and get lost? Well, that's a really good question. There's two answers to it. One of them is, yes, you can get better, but what he or she would need to do is to focus on the actual problem. What is it? Why is it that that person is not particularly good at finding their way through an unfamiliar environment?

42:21And practicing navigating through unfamiliar environments would be one way to improve that particular skill again it's not going to make that person overall smarter in the sense that it's not going to improve their memory or make them better at anything else but it will certainly have an effect on the particular problem that they have but the other answer to your question which is about assisted technologies including ai you know and And that is, well, can we use these new tools that we have available to us intelligently? And, you know, one way of solving the problem of the absent-minded professor who can't find his way around an unfamiliar environment is, of course, to use some kind of GPS system to assist.

43:10And this is something that we're seeing more and more, that people are filling in gaps. In fact, smart people are filling in gaps in their executive armory, if you like, with other types of technology that can help with these things. Do you think that if you were to ask 100 people about their executive function and where their strengths and weaknesses are, most people know? Or are we all diluting ourselves into thinking we're all pretty good at these things? I think we are and I think the reason for that, I think we are deluding ourselves into thinking that we understand this stuff and I think the reason for that is largely because the neuroscience hasn't really, the current neuroscience hasn't really reached the mainstream media.

43:59So although people may have heard the term executive function, they may have been told that one of their relatives has a problem with executive function, it's not something that is extremely well understood by the general public. But neuroscientifically we understand it extremely well now. We have modern brain imaging methods that we've been using for more than 30 years now to unpack exactly which bits of the brain are involved in executive function, how many executive functions are there, how they interact, can you be good at this one but bad at that one, or do the two go together. So you know and I think the way people often describe themselves is more of an average of all of those things because perhaps the information about the nuances hasn't yet sort of seeped through to the general public.

44:50They'll make a general assessment and yeah you know I'm pretty cognitively good or I'm you know I'm a bit dull in this area but it actually the truth is, for each of us, it's much more nuanced than that. You can have extreme strengths and equivalent weaknesses in different areas. Why do you think it's important to talk about this? I understand why in your field as a neuroscientist, this is important. But why is this important for the rest of us? Why are we talking about this? We're talking about it because executive function has so many implications for so many of us. There's not only what we discussed, healthy people, the effects of sleep, the effects of diet, the effects of anxiety.

45:38But for people that are having challenges with their brain, it's really important. Alzheimer's disease, for example, and other forms of dementia are not really about memory at all. Memory, the memory problems, are just what you see when the disease process has progressed to a point that it's very visible. But much earlier than that, you very often see changes in executive function. And this is really why people often say, well, they're just not the same person because the person runs into problems, you know, planning a shopping trip or organizing their finances or following a recipe. These bigger picture issues with everyday life.

46:18Actually, when you look at patients who are on the road to dementia these are the sorts of things that one can identify first and in fact we've used exactly this to develop a tool that can predict who is going to go on and develop dementia and who is just suffering from old age like the rest of us so it's very important there I would say another area where there's a very real-world example of why executive function needs to be thought about a little bit more is with ADHD. Everybody's familiar with ADHD now. A lot of money is being spent on drugs to combat ADHD. But you know, it's a problem that is much more than not paying attention.

47:08People with ADHD often know exactly what they should do, but they struggle to translate intention into action. So they actually show many of the key aspects of executive or problems with executive function. And I think one of the biggest misconceptions about people with ADHD is that they simply can't pay attention. And that's one area where I think focusing on executive function and focusing on approaches to getting people to work on their own executive function can be as helpful as pharmacological interventions in some contexts. And what does that mean to work on your executive function when you had said earlier, it seems like it's kind of set in stone to some extent.

47:57Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, well, it's set in stone, but how we use it isn't set in stone. I mean, And what I mean by that, again, is just people, by just simply thinking about what they're thinking, can really make their brains much more powerful. Instead of just going through life, doing whatever comes through your door, looking at whatever comes in front of your visual field, think about it. Think about what's the thing that I could do now that would optimize this situation for me. I'm in this situation is there something that I should be focusing my attention on rather than let it mind wander you know into something completely different I'm sure we've all had that experience of walking into a room and forgetting why we're there or just losing our train of thought or reading a passage a paragraph from a book three times because each time we try and read it and mind wanders somewhere else.

49:00Now the solution to that is not a drug or it's not practicing attention. I think the solution is to think about what it is that you really want to do right now. Do you want to concentrate on this book or do you want to go and doom scroll on your phone or do you want to go and do your accounts? Simply thinking about where you should apply your brain if you like, will help us take greater control over our lives. Well, I've always had a sense. I think everybody has a sense of what executive function is, but now I really understand it and realize how important it is. I've been talking with Adrian Owen.

49:40He is a professor of cognitive neuroscience at the University of Western Ontario, and his book is called Think Before You Think, Understanding and Mastering Executive Function. And there's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes. Adrian, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for coming on. Great. Thanks very much, Mike. Really enjoyed it.

50:03Whether you're painting a room or writing a report or even cleaning the garage, you've probably noticed that once you're almost finished, progress seems to slow to a crawl. That's because the easy, predictable work usually comes first. The final stretch is where all the little details and corrections and testing and unexpected problems show up. Project managers have long recognized this phenomenon, and it's one reason experienced professionals often leave far more time at the end of a project than beginners do. Knowing this can help you plan more realistically, and save yourself from the frustration of thinking you're almost done when you're really not.

50:47and that is something you should know. This would be a perfect time for you to write a review of something you should know. You can write a review for whatever platform you're listening. They usually leave a review thing and you can just tell us what you think. We read those reviews, we appreciate those reviews and they help. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Pink Panther is here. Coach and Spotify are teaming up to bring music and style together, and they want you to be part of it. Grab your friends and head to the Tabby Tour, hitting cities around the country with live performances from special artists, exclusive experiences, and personalized products.

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