How Vise Hit $22B in Platform Assets, Reshaping The $83T Wealth Industry

25:22How do you give the same advice, the same advantages the ultra wealthy had to everyone and giving everyone an even better offering because technology is able to drive a better overall outcome? I have so many questions on this. First, like what is the range of clients that you have? Like where does the band go till? So we've got clients that are well in excess of like, you know, we've got billionaire clients, but they've got individual accounts well in excess of$150 million on our platform. And then we've got client accounts that I kid you not are$200, like really, really small. Like we want to be able to service all clients.

25:59We kind of have this principle of like meet the client where they are. We want to be able to service all clients, all different types of accounts across all asset classes. And it's a really interesting problem because the problem can only be solved with technology. Because if you threw humans at this problem and said, hey, I want you to figure out asset allocation for a$10 ,000 account or$100 million account, you know, you would throw, you know, a ton of resources at the$100 million account and very few resources at the$10 ,000 account. And, you know, we think that all accounts should be functionally treated the same.

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27:09Besides taxes and also portfolio adjustments, how is Vise optimizing portfolios for your clients? So we're looking at the specific persona of the client, meaning, so let's say you are a good example, right? Let's say you really care about, you know, let's say you want to do a PhD program at some point or you want to do like a master's degree. I don't think you will, but and that master's degree costs, I don't know, three hundred thousand dollars. So you want and you're earlier on in your investing journey and you want to slowly over time pay for that big kind of liability. You're probably going to want to transition your portfolio from equities to more fixed income.

27:50So you have a stable income stream to be able to make those payments. to cover that, you know, big fancy expense or buy a, buy a home, whatever it might be. So you're going to have a different need out of your asset allocation, out of your portfolio, than say someone who doesn't plan to spend any money, who should just be entirely in equities or entirely in, or someone who's looking to retire and they want to be, you know, a little less weighted towards equity and more in fixed income because they want to meet their kind of fixed income, you know, retirement target. They want to have a certain amount of income every single year that can kind of help pay for their lifestyle.

28:26And they don't want to take on a lot of risk because they don't have a necessarily need for more and more capital. They just want to be able to cover their income needs. So every client is different from an asset allocation perspective, from their goals perspective, and that should be kind of mapped towards in their portfolio. Then you've got kind of the lower level needs, which is imagine you work in tech. Imagine you work at Apple or Airbnb or some private tech company that's going public or a big public company and you have a lot of stock, you are one, you know, you have risk in that sector.

28:55So in technology, you know, if you hold Apple stock because you work there, you have risk in the technology sector. If you get if the technology sector takes a hit, you could get let go. You could see a paid decrease. You could see any number of things that happen. So like we saw this in covid. A lot of folks that worked in the airline industry had a lot of airline stock and they got furloughed or they got laid off and they got hit in both places. So if I were that person with that portfolio, I would have less tech exposure. So I would rebuild my index with less technology to account for the returns that Apple position is supposed to make up for.

29:30And then I would, you know, wait overall, like less companies that are correlated with that particular company. So if anything happens, I'm not necessarily my kind of investment portfolios and my investment returns are protected from the risks I have as a person working in technology with a concentrated Apple stock position. Then it gets into a second level of nuance, which is you have this Apple position, but you want to start to transition out of it over time. And, you know, because you've held on to it for so long, you've got a lot of embedded gains. Back to that tax loss harvesting concept we just talked about, we're going to start to create losses in the portfolio to offset the gains.

30:07So imagine we're creating a little bit, some losses in your portfolio every single day, and we're selling down a little bit of Apple every single day. So over a 10, 12, 15-year period, whatever the period might be, you can create enough losses to offset the whole collective gain of that Apple position and transition that Apple position into a broad-based diversified index without having to pay a huge tax bill, depending on how long you're willing to wait to get out of that Apple position into the broad-based diversified index. Sorry if it was a little complicated. Wow. No, it wasn't. So helpful.

30:39OK, now the next scenario is you're Elon Musk or you're Mark Zuckerberg. Why do you have zero salary? That's a whole other. I mean, they don't really technically have zero salary. It's tax inefficient to have a salary. Like if I'm making like I don't really pay myself a ton of money because I'm like, why would I like what? What do you you're paying a crazy amount of taxes on income. It's like you can't necessarily offset capital losses with with incomes. So like if I generate a bunch of losses in my stock portfolio, then and I make a million dollars in salary, I can't take those losses and pay a less tax bill on my salary.

31:17Your deduction limit is three thousand dollars on your salary. So it's very tax inefficient to just get a paycheck, you know, every single, you know, every every two weeks. Right. It's extremely tax inefficient. What's more tax efficient is you get stock. So if Mark Zuckerberg or Elon Musk or any of these people got a bunch of stock and they put that into their portfolio and then with that stock in their portfolio, you can do all kinds of fun things. You can take loans against that stock. You can run a buffer strategy. So you basically can, you know, collar that stock with options. So collaring a stock basically means you'll go short and long that stock.

31:54So you basically net out the market and then you take a loan against that stock and then you just keep kind of repaying the principal on the loan. And then you've functionally got a pretty clean way to avoid taxes and perpetuity as long as the you know, as long as you can kind of keep paying the interest, which a lot of these CEOs tend to do. So it's a long story of saying that salaries are tax inefficient. If you are creative with stock, you can, you know, cover enough of your cash flow needs from, you know, collaring a certain portion of the stock or taking loans against the stock. And it's overarching, you know, a much more efficient strategy.

32:37So the properties, the real estate, that's usually based on loans off of stock, if you would imagine. So a lot of things that people miss. So like when you read those stories of like, I'm sure you've read a bunch of them of like, blah, blah, blah, tech billionaire buys$50 million house or$100 million house, all cash paid. They're not paying in all cash. What they're doing is they're going to their, you know, guy at Morgan Stanley or Goldman Sachs. And they're saying, hey, let me get a loan against my shares and blank company. And they're going to, you know, pull a loan against that shares. It's usually a margin loan on the portfolio.

33:12And then they're going to use that to finance or purchase the house. Got it. And then what about the private jets? That's a whole other like that's I mean, there's all kinds of different ways people finance these things. It's a little different. Most of the time, most of these people don't own the planes. The companies own the planes. They are. They're deducts. If you buy a new plane, I don't know what the tax rules on this are quite yet. But if you buy a new plane, you can depreciate a certain amount of that plane and offset it with gains in your public's portfolio or your private's liquid portfolio.

33:49And then what a lot of GPs do or a lot of managers do is they actually expense these planes or the operating costs from their fund, which is, I feel like a complete scam. But you can basically deduct the cost of operating an aircraft from the actual fund, which will impact your IRR to some degree. It doesn't even come out of the management company. And, you know, voila, you can fly private. So I want to shift a little bit more back to the venture capital scope of things. Most of the audience is in the VC world. I was recently at a conference in Monaco for family offices and we were talking about exit lockups, specifically in venture capital and the lack of IPOs.

34:33How are managers and RIAs thinking about dealing with their locked up capital from all these tech companies? So most RIAs aren't in these tech companies, so they don't really have to think about it. And they're now just getting into it for the first time. It's kind of a new concept for them. But it presents an interesting challenge because their clients can't have these lockups like most of these long term LPs have had, because most clients at some point have cash flow needs at a shorter duration than a foundation or endowment would. They can't hold on to an illiquid position forever. They want to go buy their vacation house or send their kid to college or whatever it might be.

35:16So that's going to provide, you know, present a really interesting challenge with the solution to it at the end of the day is like a secondary marketplace. And no one really, I think this is part of the Carta X vision, but no one has really built a strong, broad, secondary marketplace. And I think in order for this problem to be solved and in order to get more illiquid long-term positions into a client's portfolio, it needs to be through a robust secondary marketplace. And we don't have one yet. The other thing I'm starting to see is it's unlikely that that liquidity problem is going to be solved anytime soon.

35:52And the only reason why is because if I'm a private company, which actually I am, I don't necessarily want my stock valued every single day because it can kind of present a little bit of a distraction if you're a long term thinker, which is like companies that are thinking on really long time horizons want their team, want their investors. is they want them to project all their growth as far out into the future as possible so they can build towards the biggest possible outcome versus people that are thinking about their stock price every single day are focused on the here and now, not as much in the way distant future where all the value or innovation value is going to really come to play, come to fruition.

36:33So I think that it's a long way of saying that more companies are going to stay private for longer. Surprise, surprise. And there needs to be a secondary marketplace that can support it. Yeah. Yeah, we're definitely seeing that. In terms of family offices themselves, I'm sure they look and act similar to RIAs. Are you seeing them act like mini RIAs? So a lot of family offices that are sophisticated on investments are becoming multifamily offices and multifamily offices are just RIAs. So they're becoming RIAs. They're saying, hey, we've built all these, this investment acumen. We want to now share it with our friends.

37:12So then they bring all their friends on and they create this multifamily office and they create an investment team that supports that. Most single family offices up into a certain scale. So like if you're Bernard Arnault, you probably have your own investment team. But if you are a run of the mill billionaire, you don't necessarily do your investments in house. Because if you have your own in-house CIO, you have your own in-house investment team, you are exposing that person to all of your dirty laundry that you might not want to. So you're typically outsourcing, at least what I'm seeing is that most single family offices that have clients with a few billion bucks are typically outsourcing the actual core investment management to an RIA firm.

37:53So there's ultra high net worth focused RIA firms. So we have a client, New Edge, for example, they manage, you know, a lot of money and New Edge, a lot of their business is managing, you know, billions of dollars on behalf of family offices as the outsourced or OCIO. And we are, then we support them on the back end. If you get to a certain scale, these firms end up potentially becoming integrated and they actually do the investments in-house. But it actually makes more sense to outsource. Got it. Shifting over to Vise, let's now get into Vise's growth. Like we mentioned earlier, over$15 billion in platform assets.

38:35That's pretty tremendous. I know it's been eight years, but that's a big accomplishment. So congrats. Thank you. In terms of your funding history, I'd love to break that down. So how has that evolved over time? I know you raised a lot of money early on, but what was the fundraising process like for you? I mean, it wasn't that early on. I was already like four or five years into the business before we raised our seed round. So Keith Raboy led our first seed round with this guy, Ben Ling, and it was at like a$4 million valuation. But how old were you at the time? I was 19. Or no, I was 18. I was 18 when they were invested.

39:09but I started the business when I was 15 so like what is that that's like you know three four years almost before I raised my seed round that I was like bootstrapping the thing just like sleeping on couches and floors in the Bay Area so it took a long time and I tried to raise money earlier no one would give me money they're like what business does this like 16 year old kid have building software for financial advisors and honestly come to think about it I'm like kind of weird why was building software for financial advisors when I was 16. But I was able to kind of figure out how to raise money and tell the story, coinciding with a great market pretty quickly.

39:45So we went from seed to unicorn in like 18 months, which was kind of insane. Now it's happened a couple of times with these AI companies. But at the time, it was kind of unheard of, especially for one company to raise continuous back-to-back financing rounds from Sequoia. So it was pretty cool at the time. The challenge was, if I reflect on it, we either raised too much money or we raised too little money. And the reason why I say that is when you raise a lot of money, it burns a hole in your pocket because you're like, how do I spend this money? And the way you think of spending money is you want to grow faster.

40:21Every VC says you need to grow faster. So the way you think you're going to grow faster is you go out and hire a bunch of people. But then when you hire a bunch of people, all those people, you know, come with problems and baggage. And like more people you hire, the bigger your people team needs to be, the bigger your recruiting team needs to be, the bigger your legal team needs to be, the bigger your operations team needs to be. And then over time, you start to build a lot of bloat really quickly. And if you overlay this of being in a world where you're remote and you don't really know the people you're working with because there's a global pandemic happening, you really quickly build a pretty bad culture because it's hard to build relationships with people.

40:56It's hard to build culture over Zoom. People can debate it, but like all these remote companies are now going back into office. I'm a strong believer of the office. Two, capital is free. So you've got all of these companies that are raising a ton of money. So if employees are upset with you, they just leave. So you're trying to make all these employees really happy so they don't leave your company. But like the reality is the decision that makes someone happy is usually the wrong decision for the business. So there's all of these things that happen at that particular time in the world that no longer exist today that we just kind of had to go through.

41:28But looking back, we just hired too many people. We hired too many senior people and fancy executives that we didn't need to hire. We just spent too much money. And it ended up being more of a time suck for me than it did a contributor to the growth of the business. and, you know, it won't happen again, but it was a good learning. And I think everyone should kind of reflect on some of those learnings that I had and other folks had during that kind of bull market period for when the next bull market comes or if they're an AI company in the bull market today. And I think the second was my point around raising not enough money was if the markets were good enough and the price was good enough, if you raise a lot of money, you can go buy a company that has a lot of distribution.

42:12And for a long time, Silicon Valley was very against acquiring companies. They thought that organic growth was the only way you should scale a company. And I think it's some industries, if you look at financial services in particular, BlackRock, Blackstone, you know, most of these RIA businesses, they've all grown Morgan Stanley and Merrill Lynch. They've all grown through M &A. They've all just acquired all the like smaller firms and, you know, drove efficiencies through those firms and, you know, gotten benefits of scale. I think there was a tremendous opportunity to buy kind of legacy asset management businesses that had a tremendous amount of distribution and transform them with technology that we could have done if we raised a lot more money rather than going and hiring a bunch of people and trying to grow purely organically.

43:02That we probably just, you know, probably should have done. But, you know, it's hindsight's 20-20. Love premium merch just as much as we do? That's why Sorcery uses Fourth Wall. Everyone from creators like Marcus Brownlee to podcasts like Acquired to Orgs like the Smithsonian Institute are using Fourth Wall. They let you create and sell premium products without having to stress the details. They handle everything from production, shipping, customer support, taxes, even giveaways. When it's time to level up and make gear that people are actually proud to wear, that's when it's time to use Fourth Wall.

43:35And that's why we've trusted Fourth Wall for all of our brandware at Sorcery since day one. Use my link in the description to get free credits for your first order. And for any VCs, DM me on X and I can get all your portfolio companies set up with a free samples credit deal. I definitely want to go right to the M &A point that you just mentioned. Are you thinking about that at all for the future? Like, what are your aspirations, your vision for how big Vize will get? We want to build the world's largest asset manager entirely powered by technology platform. So if you think about most asset managers today, they are product companies.

44:10They're building a mutual fund or an ETF and they're distributing that product. And it's a human distributing that product and a human building that product, whether it's a human portfolio manager or it's a salesperson and they're taking it to a financial advisor who are distributing it or, you know, they're going to the end clients who are purchasing it. Our belief is that all advice should be received through a platform that is personalized to any client in nature across all asset classes. So whatever asset class will both kind of most help the end client get to their kind of call it financial freedom, most helpful to get to their end financial goal.

44:45And technology algorithms should be the primary mechanism to receiving that advice. And today, the asset management industry doesn't work that way. But there needs to be one platform that is functionally the platform that powers the global multi-trillion dollar asset management industry. And it will be Vise. And it will be Vise, partially because unless there's someone else, part of the bet is because I'm 24 years old, right, I can go work on this for the next two or three decades and still be like a considerably young person. Whereas the CEOs of most of these big asset management firms or most of these big kind of institutions that control a lot of capital are just really old and naturally they're going to have to retire.

45:28And when they retire, they're going to pass it along to the next generation that, you know, they didn't necessarily build these businesses. And you know what they say about the second and third generations. So ideally, we have an opportunity of building a better product, capturing distribution and just letting the thing compound with time. Yeah, that's excellent. And I do want to dig in a little bit more into the team. When I read one of your fundraising announcements, I think it might have been your Series C or something like that. You had 70 employees at the time. And in your latest tweet, you said you had 41.

46:02So you're scaling back, you're concentrating, you're going after the barrel approach that Keith Raboy talks about a lot. In terms of your perspective, at what point do you stop scaling the team? What What makes up the current team? So I only want to hire people if we absolutely have to hire them. Like it doesn't make sense. Sometimes what the incentives of a manager. So we actually scaled the company to like 150 people or something. Oh my God. So it was way more than 70 people. But we hired a lot of managers, like senior executives, people that had come from companies like Meta or Dropbox or others where they'd been used to having 100, 200, 300 person organizations.

46:43And if you look at any of their LinkedIn's, their LinkedIn's are going to say scaled an organization from 20 people to 200 people. And like people think associate their identities with how big of an organization they have or how big of an org they were able to scale and over what time. So there's this natural incentive of in order for me to move up in the organization and to be able to prove my worth to people, I need to hire a lot of people. so when you hire these people they go and they hire all these people and you know when you're young you don't really know any better and you think okay well yeah i'll do that of course it sounds sounds like a good idea and our realization was there are a set of people in the organization in different roles like we found a client service person who was really really smart now like leads our entire enterprise business or different engineers that might not have this most senior pedigreed backgrounds but like they're the ones in the office super late that are solving our most important, difficult problems.

47:35I just couldn't have predicted them. And those people, those, you know, as Keith calls them, the barrels, um, are the ones that move the organization forward. And once, when we realized that and we identified those people, it was like, how can we find more of these people and how can we put those barrels in positions of power? And like all of these other people that are just hiring a lot of people and they're delegating and they're kind of, you know, not necessarily in the details at every single level, um, was just like find them another place and transition them out of eyes into a place where, where that is, you know, maybe a big tech company or, you know, asset management firm where that is more culturally set up.

48:15Yeah. I mean, I certainly love how open and honest you are about the lessons that you've learned along the way. It's like most founders don't really want to share all of this stuff, but I think it's like, it's very commendable. Well, I mean, a lot of, thank you. A lot of people gave me advice. They tried to like, so I kind of just want to push it forward, play it forward. But I think the biggest reason, like I wrote this blog post probably a year after we did all these like cuts and resets called Refounding Vise. And the reason why I did it was because I would talk to a lot of founders that all made the same sets of mistakes.

48:48And they would say like, I'm too scared to like, you know, fire these executives or I'm too scared to like reset my team or do anything else. And like the lesson I want people to take away from Vize was we did it and we were better off for it. And it was like so amazing and successful. And yes, it was hard for the two months we did it. But like we just, you know, we actually turned it into something that made the overall organization much better. So like you shouldn't be scared. And I'm a good example you can point to of like things working out and being okay. So that was kind of the primary motivation.

49:23Yeah. Well, performance does seem like one of your biggest values, especially with the company and being efficient. Yeah. So we're very lucky to be sponsored by Brex and Brex is all about performance, spending smarter and moving faster. I'm curious to learn from you within all of that, how did you manage scale and burn? I, for a while, was not in the details on burn. I mean, one of our investors had told us, just burn whatever money you have to. Like, who cares? Like, when you're early stage and a very well-known, very recognizable investor, burn whatever money you have to, just hire whoever you need to.

50:02Like, go, go, go. That's all that matters. And their incentive, like one of the core principles I start to think about is like, you know, you show me the incentives, I'll show you the outcome. Famous Charlie Munger quote. But I'm thinking about everyone's incentives and everything they say, which is an investor's incentive is to get you to burn money because they believe it'll help you grow faster. And if it grows faster, you can always raise more money and burn more money and they can put more money in for you to burn so they can deploy more capital that they can charge more fees on and they can own more of your company.

50:31But your incentive is how do you build, you know, the best possible, fastest growing, efficient business that you own as much as possible, you and your team own as much of. and I think that's just a direct contradiction to most investors. So I think it's one, being mindful of the incentives of who's giving you the advice around managing your capital. And then two is understanding what are the incentives of your team. So as I talked about people wanting to hire more people, they're not necessarily thinking about the financial implications. So when an engineering leader says, I want to hire 100 engineers because that's just what I want to do and that's what you promised me I could go do or that's what I had at my previous company, that's what I need to be successful, they're just thinking about hiring 100 engineers.

51:10They're not thinking about the cost associated with hiring 100 engineers and like what the second order implications are on dilution and, you know, having to raise more capital or opportunity cost of capital or any of these other things. So it's important that you're thinking about your incentives, their incentives, everyone else's incentives, you know, before you even think about like what is your kind of financial plan. So that's like step one. Step two is starting to think about, OK, well, what do I actually think I'm able to do with this capital and how do I efficiently grow? So you should build as early on as possible a, you know, kind of a complex, it doesn't have to be too complex, but a financial model of your business.

51:47And one, this business, this model will help you understand how you're thinking about the different levers of your business. or, you know, how many calls you need to make in order to convert how many customers. And you can do it based on kind of high level data points from your own experience. But, you know, how do you think about your business and all the different nuances of your business and the input metrics into your business that will lead to some end output being revenue and profits and growth? And then based on that, you can understand at a high level what how much capital do you need to deploy in order to, you know, kind of make progress in your input metrics with some kind of margin of safety.

52:23And then from there, you can kind of forecast what your burn needs to look like. I don't know if that makes sense. Makes sense. But it does it seems like you had to learn a lot on your own and not really rely on your investors for much. I'm really curious in your mind, who are finance leaders that you admire most and like who do you look for for advice? Like how did you navigate all of this on your own? Yeah. I mean, as you shouted out Brex, I mean, I think Michael Tannenbaum at Brex, He was like their longtime CFO, was absolutely incredible. He's got a lot of like deep, in-depth financial understanding.

52:57I mean, I think Enrique was an incredible fundraiser and he was great at kind of understanding some of these things. I think they made some of the same mistakes early on, but, you know, they learned from it as well. I think Pager's been doing a great job at that. So I think all of those people, all of those folks have kind of learned a lot from in that sense. But I think more importantly, it's just kind of thinking about problems from a first principle standpoint. of like, what do I actually need to do something? Like, how many people do I actually need? Like, if I'm, if you're like putting a gun to my head and saying, how many engineers do I actually need to build this product?

53:29How many salespeople do I actually need to go out and sell it? And how much work are they actually doing? You can be a little bit more sober about what you really need versus what you want to have versus what you think is cool because it's fun to have a lot of people, at least you think it is. Yeah. Well, as we wrap up, I like to close with two segments on future outlooks. Number one, what are you most looking forward to this year? You know, I wrote a bunch of predictions early on in the year. Okay. And I'm just looking forward to seeing how many of them might become like I'm right on versus not.

54:05Any example? I'll give you a bunch of examples. So the first example I had was at the beginning of the year. I said there's going to be some kind of natural disaster or wildfire. and it was going to have an impact on the insurance markets. And two weeks later, there's breakout wildfires in California. The second was, I said, Doge was going to be somewhat of a failure. And I want it to be a success. I think it's really important. But, you know, I don't necessarily know if it's turned out how everyone kind of pitched it to turn out. And then a lot of Silicon Valley would unfortunately turn out of the administration because they realized how tough politics is.

54:40So I think that's like starting to happen. Another prediction I had was like there would be huge breakthroughs in quantum computing. And like, it seems like there's been some pretty big breakthroughs in quantum computing. So I think there's like a bunch of different on a whole bunch of different dimensions of like just kind of viewpoints on the world I had. And I'm just curious to see which of them come to fruition versus which don't. Okay, fair. Well, to top that off, we're going to bring in some Kalshi predictions and really put your money where your mouth is. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So let me pull them up.

55:11These ones all have to do with wealth. Surprise, surprise. Wealth and technology. Okay, so, Samir, do you think a recession is going to happen this year? If it's not this year, it would be late, like Q3, Q4. It'll probably be early next year. What do you think the current odds are on that? I would say 60 % chance of a recession. 60 cents. Not at all, no. Oh, sorry, that's what my odds are. Oh, that's your odds. What the current odds are, probably 22 cents. Okay. Is that on, is that close? I think it just dropped below 30. Okay. Yeah. In terms of the wealthiest person in the world this year, who do you think it's going to be?

55:57Elon Musk. You think Elon Musk is going to be the wealthiest person? I think so, because SpaceX is probably going to do a new tender, and he's going to be really rich from that. Okay. That's a good answer. What is it? What's the answer? Well, I mean, we have to see. It's not the end of the year yet. Well, sorry, what is the Kalshi prediction? Elon Musk, of course. And oh, this is a really interesting one. Actually, I changed my answer. I think the wealthiest person in the world is actually Putin. But really? Yes. But disclosed wealthiest person in the world. Sure, Elon Musk. What do you know? Plenty.

56:31OK.

56:34This one is really interesting. who will join Trump's sovereign wealth fund before 2027? Who will join it? These are like finance leaders. Probably some like big investment banking. Like, I mean, wasn't Michael Grimes supposed to join it? I don't know. I'm not sure. Chamath. Good answer. He's in the running. Yeah. And then from your perspective, as someone who's really focused on AI and optimizing your own company, what do you think the best AI will be this month? DeepSeek. Wow. That's a good answer. I don't even see it on this one. Right now it has Gemini. No. I think it's OpenAI. OpenAI? Of those.

57:27Okay. Well, these are all good answers. I appreciate that and your predictions. Samir, it was awesome to have you on. Thank you so much for taking the time and being my own personal financial advisor. I hope it wasn't too complicated, but I had a fun time. Perfect. Awesome. Thank you.

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