Inside Thrive Capital: Investing in OpenAI, Wiz, Cursor, Nudge, Physical Intelligence

25:08And so I think there is a dynamic here of, yes, there are bigger fixed costs to getting hardware off the ground, but these businesses can be really unique and powerful once they do. And they often actually have a very geometric growth rate to them. I was looking at the revenue curves actually of Anderol and SpaceX and Tesla the other day. And they are some of the only companies that have actually accelerated growth at scale, which is to say they are growing at a faster rate at multi-billion dollar scale than they were when they were small. Normally, in a technology company, you have a deterioration of growth over time.

25:42I think the difference to hardware is actually the bigger you get, the bigger markets you can access, and the more people trust you to take on big problems. Like take Anderol, for instance. When they were in a real estate company, they were really great about getting on the field. They, I think, won a program of record, which are the very big budget line item contracts in the National Defense Authorization Act within two years, fastest timeline since the Korean War. But those deals were good. They were on the order of tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. Now, Andrew is being tapped for many of the great technology programs that the US military is thinking about across all domains from air to space, to Navy, etc.

26:25Which means that the number of contracts are eligible for and the amount of revenue they can go after is quite a bit larger. And so again, I think actually expanding the aperture of what they could do or think SpaceX. You know, for the first 15 years of the business, SpaceX was a launch business, great business, lots of free cash flow, only provider in the US, maybe the world that can bring mass into orbit at a competitive price point. I don't know if you know this, but actually before SpaceX, we had to rely on the Russians to bring people to the International Space Station. So good we can have an American company doing it now.

26:58But it created the opportunity for them to build Starlink, which is now one of the most powerful internet constellations in the world. And it's actually driving a very, very large majority of overall free cash flow and revenue for the business. And so again, I think these later age, second stage acts of hardware companies can end up looking a lot bigger than the early stages, which is a very distinct characteristic. That said, great businesses are great businesses. And you do need to make sure that these things are still high margin, great products, great founders, etc. There certainly has been a surge of funding that's gone in this direction.

27:33Yeah. And there's also bottlenecks that come with it, whether it's policy, government, et cetera, and different kinds of regulations. So how do you see this current stage of hardware in a cycle? Do you think that we were in a bubble? Are we in a bubble? Like what's the, like, I guess, temperature on the ground? Yeah, I think temperature on the ground is the returns always accrue to a small number of companies. Venture is the actual asset class with the worst beta and the best alpha of any financial asset class, which is to say, you know, the best companies are going to give you the best possible return of any possible equity instrument you can invest in.

28:11And the index is probably going to give you pretty mediocre returns. I think hardware is going to look no different than that, which is to say, I am fairly confident that we are going to produce some of the world's most valuable companies in hardware over the next decade. Even right now, five of 10 most valuable companies in the world are hardware companies, Apple, NVIDIA, Broadcom, Tesla, TSMC. At the same time, these businesses are hard. There aren't that many people who are really great at being combined hardware software thinkers. And so there's probably going to be a lot of companies that don't work.

28:42That's just the nature of company building. But I think the really exciting thing, the types of companies we invest in are N of one founders, like the Camerons or the Travises or the Palmers, or also investors in Nudge, like you mentioned, Jeremy, who used to help run engineering at Neuralink and Fred Urson, who was one of the co-founders of Coinbase, who are working on these very unique missions. I can't think of anyone else who is using a non-invasive ultrasound to stimulate brain activity like nudge and try to cure neurological illnesses like depression, pain management, addiction, et cetera, and who are doing them in ways that are going to be very, very hard to replicate in the future.

29:22And I think those companies that can actually solve the problems we're looking at are going to be valuable no matter what. Okay, let's talk about nudge, because you brought it up. And it's really fascinating. Tell me everything. Well, I'll tell you all the public things. I think the nature of early stage technology companies is you want to make sure that the correct secrets are kept secret. But and the way I would think about nudge is the human brain is basically one of the last frontiers of engineering. For a long time, it's been considered a science problem. You're something where we'll study it in the clinic, we'll study in the lab, but we don't really build products for the brain in the same way we might build products for other parts of the economy or even for human health.

30:03Nudge is taking the approach of what if we could engineer the human brain or bring engineering solutions to the brain's problems? And I think for a problem like that, you want people who I'd describe as life's work founders, people who no matter how much money they have, no matter what island you put them on, only have one missionary purpose in life in mind. And I think Jeremy and Fred are both that. And Jeremy, like I mentioned, one of the early employees and key leaders at Neuralink, another really amazing neurotech company. Fred was actually one of the early investors in Neuralink and obviously built an incredibly successful company with Coinbase.

30:39And I think they are both convinced that the most important thing they can do with their lives is go and actually build a solution to neurological illnesses. So how does Nudge work for those who haven't heard of it, which I imagine is most people right now, but hopefully not very many people in the future. So much like we use ultrasound to image pregnant women, you can use ultrasound waves to actually stimulate brain activity. They're very safe. If we're comfortable taking images of babies, we should be pretty comfortable using them on ourselves. And so what Nudge does is it will take ultrasound waves, it will direct them at very, very specific points in the brain that they've identified as being associated with some type of neurological problem and use those waves to stimulate the brain and actually change the neurological activity that's going on there.

31:28And ultimately, the goal is, how do you have a treatment for neurological illnesses that is easier than taking a pill? Imagine if we could treat really, really tough illnesses like depression, addiction, by you wearing a set of headsets on your temples, and that actually doing meaningful amounts to cure versus struggling with an illness over a prolonged period of time. So really inspiring mission. The company is early but moving really, really fast. And so if there are any engineers out there that are excited to work on engineering the brain, I think one of the best places in the world to work.

32:01So what's the for most people, what's the difference between Neuralink and then also just traditional like clinical brain simulation? Yeah. So Neuralink, really amazing company as well. You know, I think incredibly highly of DJ and Elon and the entire team there that have done huge feats of engineering. I would think about them as starting with the read side of the brain, understanding the brain. They use an invasive neurological implant. So if you are a paraplegic or someone with ALS, they will implant a device into your brain with a very relatively easy surgery. They've automated to a high degree.

32:40And as of today, this gives you what is called telepathy in classic cool Elon terms, which is to say, I can now control any digital device with my brain. And for people who have paralysis of that degree, this is a life-changing experience. And you can imagine you have ALS, you're actually no longer able to speak, you can communicate with your loved ones for the first time. You were paralyzed in a ski accident, you can now actually go back to work and do meaningful economic work for the first time by interacting on a computer. So they're on the read side. Over time, I think they'll actually do a number of things that are really helpful on the right side too.

33:19Things on their roadmap, like blindsight, which they're going to try to restore, sight to the blind. You can imagine things that are actually going to try to restore limbic motion. It's basically biblical miracles. Pretty amazing. We live in an era where this is possible. Mostly on the stimulation side. So they are not so much reading what is going on in the brain and interpreting it, but actually targeting specifically affected areas of the drain and trying to stimulate it. And so the closest comparison that we have to this today in modern medicine is something called TMS, which is transcranial magnetic stimulation, where this is really a version of what you might have seen in the movies called electroshock therapy, where people will more or less use electrodes to zap the brain.

34:02It's actually pretty effective. It is very unpleasant. And I have not personally tried it. What kind of diligence is that? I know, I know. Totally slacking here. Did you try it before the podcast? Yeah. Yeah, you did? You must be a big believer in Nudge then. I love Nudge. Excellent. But in case, oftentimes people have to do this treatment over many weeks. You have to go to clinics very far away from where you work. And so what's called the second line adoption of this treatment, the number of people who will try this after first-line treatments in depression fail is very, very low because no one wants to do this.

34:39And so not only do we think that ultrasound can be more effective than TMS, but wearing a pair of headphones in your head, way easier than going to a clinic to get zapped. So I think hopefully evidence that this is not only possible, but there's just a much, much better way of doing things. Will you try it? Nudge? I'd love to.

35:00I You'd imagine a world where everyone should use notch because today they're treating neurological illnesses. But if we can stimulate the brain to get desired outputs, why shouldn't I be able to stimulate my mood or my energy levels or maybe my focus levels? And so I think there is a world where actually when we do this podcast again in 10 years, we're both wearing headphones on our temples and we're getting us really dialed in to ask great questions to each other. Everything is computer. Exactly. That's really funny. I want to take a step back a little bit and talk more on the funds thesis and the thesis on concentration.

35:42Yeah. So Peter Walker just recently, he's a researcher at Carta. He recently shared this chart that showed spray and pray versus highly concentrated funds. Turns out highly concentrated funds, typically like 20 companies per portfolio, outperforms spray and pray. But spray and pray looks pretty good because you have lots of potential bets. So I'm curious with rumored and reported, maybe it's not reported, maybe it's rumored $25 billion in AUM. How do you guys think about where to concentrate your bets? Yeah, I think there are two aspects that really matter to this, which is one, you have to pick a strategy that is authentic to how you want to operate as an investor.

36:23My partner, Kareem, often has the line that mathematically, there apply a lot of ways we can make money as a venture firm. The question is, what feels really aligned to the founders we partner with? And I think above all else, I can talk about why concentration we think is a really great financial strategy, and I will. But the most important thing is it allows us to be really deeply aligned with the founders we work with. If you are working with a life's work founder, this is a portfolio of one for them. And we may have a portfolio of a few, but we really shouldn't have a portfolio of that many because all the wins should really feel great and all the losses should really hurt.

36:57And we should have real skin in the game. And so I think the way we'd like to set ourselves up with is that if we're going to invest in someone, they should really believe that the success and failure of the company really matters to us as investors. And so I think there's actually an emotional and ideological aspect to this. Now, there's also just a reality of the power law, which is that I don't need to document this for you. It is very clear that a small number of companies drives a disproportionate amount of the economic and social value in the world. I think right now I'd have to check the latest stats, but the MAG-7 and the NASDAQ, the top seven stocks, represent 50 % plus of the NASDAQ's market cap.

37:34And so that gives to show you that few companies, really, really important. And so our concentration strategy just sort of reflects that reality. We want to invest in a small number of companies that are on the right tail of the distribution, the power law, that are going to be the most important to how the world works over times. And that's not to say there aren't other great companies that might make us money we can invest in with a more index like approach, but the way in which we think we can deliver differentiated, correlated returns for our partners is through investing in the very best companies.

38:06And once we think a company is of that stature, concentrating as much capital into that company as possible. Perfect tee up. Okay, we're going to talk about OpenAI. Great. I pulled from Patrick O'Shaughnessy's original interview with Josh way back when, and Josh said, concentrate on the most exceptional businesses and hold on to them over time, case in point, concentration strategy. But I also was able to find some data that OpenAI rounds reportedly led by Thrive Capital date back to 2023. And this was like, right, around inflection point and like the chat GPT moment. So that started in January 2023 at a$29 billion valuation.

38:47Next step up was February 2024 at an$86 billion valuation. After that, October 2024,$157 billion valuation. And then most recently, October 2025, hitting a$500 billion valuation. So how did you get involved in OpenAI? Yeah, I think people probably overestimate how popular the company was in its early days, if we want to be perfectly honest. I think Sam and Ilya and Greg and everyone else at the company worked on this project for seven, eight years before others realized how valuable it was. And so actually, if you want to go back to 2022, just clear OpenAI was a really exciting company. We had been spending time with them for many, many months.

39:33Josh had known Sam for a long time. And we actually got a demo of GBT4 in November of 2022 before it was publicly released in March. And it was one of the most astounding pieces of technology we'd ever seen. I think these days, there's a lot of talk of what is AGI? What is an AGI? You know, we could debate that here if you want. Debate it right now. Right now. What does it mean? What does it mean? You and me both have it stumped. Okay, okay. But the thing that was definitely true is that model passed the Turing test. You know, there was all this talk for many years of the Turing test was this really important moment.

40:09You wouldn't be able to recognize it or a computer that was capable of acting like a human or having the intelligence of a human. GBT4 was that. And we don't talk about it anymore, But that was a really important moment in technological history. And that felt really exciting. At the same time, I think a$29 billion valuation or thereabouts is undoubtedly a high price for a company that ChatGPT hadn't even launched for. And so when we invested in OpenAI in that round, I think we were one of two firms that gave the company a term sheet. And this was actually, I think, more an artifact of investment that required belief than sort of competitive edge, so to speak.

40:46Now, if we fast forward the course of three-ish years from now, from there, so much about the company has changed. We looked at our original investment memo. There was no mention of ChatGT in there. Now it has more than a billion users and is on its way to becoming one of the most dominant and important ways in which people access technology, the internet, AI. I think it's the front door to AI in many ways. And the company has totally changed in that sense. And as a result, I think when you see these new levels of value get unlocked, you're able to have real confidence in the dominance of the business and its centrality in the arc of technological history.

41:26Yeah, your confidence in the company should increase. And yeah, you should invest a lot more in the company. And so I think the past few years have basically been a story of us having a front row seat to that and getting to see this arc unfold up close. I think one of the probably most impressive things to come out of it is the team. Yeah. Because everything that they've pushed out would seemingly be a tremendous force. And they continually do it over and over and over again. This is something I talked about with Apoorv from Altimeter. They're also investors in OpenAI. And it was almost, not so much as momentum as a moat, but speed as a moat and continually pushing things out and trying things.

42:09And it went back from like voice to text, text to voice, like all this kind of stuff. And it seems like every month, every week, every day, there's something new coming out of that company. And so how do you think about how they have recruited, they've assembled team and the talent around it? Yeah. I think one of the great privileges of my career has been able to spend time with the OpenAI team. Not just because the great people and brilliant thinkers, but the talent density, as you're pointing out, is really unprecedented. And there are good reasons for this. If you are building what I think is one of the most important technological innovations since the atomic era, forget the internet.

42:54Yes, a lot of the really brilliant people in the world are going to go work on it. Now, I think the really cool thing about OpenAI is they've attracted a lot of the star power researchers. You know, Ilya literally invented AlexNet back in the day, which kicked off the deep learning revolution. But a lot of the really great researchers at OpenAI have come up through OpenAI and were not famous entities or well-known people before. Alec Radford, who was at the company for a very long time, famously did not even really study AI when he was a student and was one of the most prolific and impactful researchers at the company.

43:27And I think one of the other things OpenAI has done really well is they've actually looked for young talent in the AI era. I think this is a really important thing. And one of the things that Cursor has actually been really attuned to as well is the people who almost hold the model weights in their brains because they've been brought up thinking about AI natively are really, really good at the creative thinking and experiments and hypothesis testing that is necessary to push the performance of these models. There's Sora, a recent OpenAI product launch. I think if you look at the average or median age of that team, I think it's in the low 20s.

44:02It's pretty amazing. And so long way of saying OpenAI, one has the benefit of, yeah, if you're a great computer scientist, you probably should be working on building some type of super intelligence. And two, they've been really risk forward about trying to find people who could be great versus who are already great. And I think that has actually allowed them to bring up and train several generations of great researchers in the company itself versus just needing to hire the people who've already been proven entities. How do you think about the evolution of OpenAI and where it goes to? One of the sponsors that proudly sponsors Sorcery is Turing.

44:45And so I've gotten exposure to the AI research side of things or an AI research accelerator. So they help out with the models. And right now they're noticing the severe shift in the last like quarter or two on imitation data, synthetic data to reinforce learning. And so I'm curious how you're seeing it on like the technical side and then also like on the application side. I think AI is a little bit like semiconductors in a sense. If I'm allowed to go back to semiconductors, the great touchstone. And that's in the sense that there are many, many waves as we're trying to get better and better performance.

45:19With semiconductors, we used to have single-core semiconductors. Then we couldn't basically squeeze anything more of the single-core. So we went to multi-core, and then we went to GPUs. I think we're seeing something very similar with AI, which is that we started with pre-training back in GPT-1, GPT-2 era, GPT-3. That took us to GPT-4. Then we started using a lot of post-training techniques for chat GPT, supervised fine-tuning, reinforcement learning with human feedback. This is what allowed the models to be less alien intelligences and more helpful assistance. And now, as a lot of the low-hanging fruit for those gains have been squeezed out, even though there's probably a lot more to do, reinforcement learning has been sort of the next big paradigm shift in AI and where a lot of the resources are going.

46:05My guess is there's going to be a couple more of these. This is not the end of the story. We are basically figuring out in real time how to do the alchemy of turning pieces of metals into thinking machines, so to speak. And that is a really tough and challenging thing. And I think the really exciting thing about OpenAI is that, yes, it's one of the great product companies of today, but it's also a research effort. These are not things that we have fully discovered and figured out yet. So I think a long way of saying the ultimate competitive advantage for the labs and for OpenAI in particular, is actually being able to constantly figure out what the next paradigm is, even as you're productizing and implementing the last paradigm.

46:47And I think one of the highest testaments I can give to OpenAI is that every single major paradigm in large models at this macro level that has been very successful to my knowledge has come from OpenAI or at least been originated at OpenAI. And I think that speaks really strongly to their ability to continue to push the frontier of research going forward. One of the lines that comes out of cursor is what comes after code? Yeah. What comes after OpenAI? That's the question for you. I think the beauty is, one, hopefully OpenAI is going to be an enduring technology. And so I'd be very surprised if in the near term we were talking about an after OpenAI.

47:28Is there an after meta or an after Google? I think the better framing of the question, if I could tweak it, would be... Feel free. Something like, what are the companies that can now be built as a result of open AI? I think there is a, what comes after SaaS? That is a more interesting way of thinking about this. We had an old way of building software. There are these cloud primitives. We build these great digital apps on top of them. A lot of really amazing companies that we had the privilege to invest in. Now there's a new substrate for technology, which is, what if you could productize intelligence and call it via API or fine tune a model with it?

48:03And I think that it engenders an entirely new breed of software companies. So I don't think it's an after OpenAI. I think it's an after SaaS that we're going to see. And so, you know, we're seeing the early signs of this, something like Cursor, where we're actually thinking about products that can work with you as a sort of collaborator in order to creating work. We're seeing this with products like Harvey on the legal side, where they are doing work, as well as just acting as an assistant. We're seeing this with products that are even incumbent products. You know, Wiz, for instance, now has a security assistant to help you find and triage vulnerabilities.

48:39But I think there basically is a new set of building blocks that we've gotten. And I think the right way to think about it is software is going to look very different going forward. But, you know, the big fundamental companies, I think they're going to be around for a while. The other standard second order question of this is impact on jobs. Yeah. Cal, she recently had a chart out that was up to 86 % thought we would have more layoffs this year in tech than in 2024. How's that going? I don't think it's, yeah, definitely take the under. But public companies have been reporting more layoffs. It's part of like a natural cycle and et cetera, et cetera.

49:20Do you think that AI and these tools will create more efficiencies, create new jobs? Where are you in this whole discussion and debate? Yeah, I'll give you my bottoms up and top down answer. My bottoms up answer is I'm an investor in a lot of companies that use AI tools. I cannot think, especially on sort of the coding side and engineering side of a single one that has laid off engineers because of these tools. I think maybe it allows them to grow without adding quite as much headcount. But really what it's done is allow them to go after a much wider range of problems. You can actually make everyone the 10x or proverbial 100x engineer in a really exciting way.

49:57And so thus far, I think just empirically, will there be some turnover in economic centers? Of course, there always is. But it's actually been much more of an augmenting technology than a substituting technology. And then I think as we look into the future and look beyond just, you know, cursors of the world, but to this notion of what does it look like to have very powerful, intelligent AI more generally, there's just a lot of problems that as a species we aren't working on right now that we should be working on. You know, way more people should be working on cures to oncology. Way more people should be thinking about what does it look like to actually sustainably mine the world's natural resources?

50:34What does it look like to actually make us, you know, a spacefaring species? And I think the beauty of AI is that we're going to be able to reallocate a bunch of human brainpower, firepower, creativity to these most important problems. and away from the things that, you know, have been great jobs to date, but are not the highest marginal use of humanity's creative and intelligence potential. And so I think there's just a lot of problems left to go solve. And AI is going to help us solve the most important of these versus less important problems. Where do you stand in the AI bubble debate? I think this is one where being concentrated allows us to feel a little bit better about no matter how the world works out, you're going to be in the right circumstances.

51:13It turned out that if you invested in Google in 1999, in 2001, in 2004, in 2005, and you were a long-term investor at Google, you might have had some variability in returns. It was a pretty great investment. Likewise with Amazon. Likewise with Netflix. Likewise with Microsoft. And so I think we really just think about what are going to be the enduring companies versus trying to time the market cycles. So that's my honest thought. I think there's a lot of value to be created out of AI. I actually think in a lot of the rounds we participated in, they felt eminently rational to us. But I think the most important thing is be in the right companies and trust that if you've picked the right companies and want to be the multi-decade holders of those companies, the rest will wash out.

52:00And where do you stand on the exit environment for this? OpenAI is one of, if not the highest valued private companies. So do you go public? Can you? What do you think about this in front of private companies? When we invest in companies, it is almost always with the intention that if they want to, they can at some point be a standalone public company. I don't know OpenAI's particular plans for this, but I think we should expect that most great technology companies will be public companies over time. Probably takes them, in some cases, a little bit longer than in the past. In some cases, maybe shorter.

52:35but I think the beauty of American capitalism is that everyone gets to participate in the growth story of these really important economic engines and I think we think that's morally the right thing to do and also we think this is how most companies will choose to represent themselves over time. Interesting. Well, if you didn't know this, Sorcery is sponsored by Brex. Awesome. Amazing. I'll throw out my ramp card in my pocket right now. Do it. Thank you. That's so generous. So Brex is all about spending smarter, moving faster performance. I'm really, really curious about this question. Because Thrive is like such a stealth fund, a huge fund, and you do a lot of different things from incubations to funding very large rounds of companies.

53:19How do you think about performance as a team? And like, how do you think about performance as an investor on a very small team? We think about decision processes a lot more than near-term outcomes. I think when I worked at Bridgewater early in my career, Ray Dalio had this very famous line of, you know, focus on the swing, not where the ball goes. And I actually think that's very much how we operate, which is that we want to have the shot on goal with the most exciting companies. We want to have the right conversations around those companies. We want to be, as my partner Miles likes to say, paranoid but patient, always thinking about what could be, but not necessarily rushing into things.

53:56But I think that structure is really what we anchor to. We have seen plenty of companies that didn't look like they went anywhere for the first few years. If you were an investor in OpenAI, when it was a nonprofit in 2017 and 2018, and even sort of a capped nonprofit with profit-like shares in 2019 and 2020, you might have thought, oh my gosh, what is this thing going to do? Is it going to go anywhere? And of course, now, one of the most valuable companies in the world. By contrast, I'm sure we can think of plenty of companies that looked hot coming out of the gates at first and at some point looked less good thereafter, which is all to say when we make decisions as a team is that no matter what performance looks like for this company in the next one to two years, we're going to be confident that we made the right decision because we looked at the right inputs for this.

54:45And so I think the worst types of investments to make are investments where if the numbers change one quarter or one year, you would all of a sudden start to feel bad about the company. Because that suggests to me that you're not investing because of the fundamentals of the company, you're investing because of the momentum of the company. And I think that is rarely the right way to capture really long-term value. We were kind of joking about this in the beginning, but I don't know what date it is. You don't know what date it is. I thought it was February. It's apparently almost November. Yeah.

55:14But what are you looking forward to in the next 12 months? Great question. First off, I think we're in this moment where reinforcement learning, as you mentioned, is this new lever. But we've seen it make its way into very few new software products. I think few products in the labs. Rumor has it some of the coding companies like Cursor have done some really cool things that they've mentioned on their blog. But relatively speaking, not that many RL problems and projects out there in the world right now in production. I'm really excited to see that change. I think it's one of these really powerful things where we now have a lot of the inputs required to go automate large amounts of really high, drudgerous work.

55:56And I think we're going to see software companies start to productize that over the coming months and years. So that's one thing I'm really excited about. I think the other is the point of intelligent hardware. I think we're going to see a real renaissance of problems that don't just have to be solved with bits. They can also be solved with atoms as well. Sometimes to make a real impact on the world, you actually need to move something in reality. And so we're investors in physical intelligence. You're doing this on the robotic side. We've talked about Nudge, talked about MASH, talked about Anderil.

56:25But I think we're going to see a new wave of companies that can actually address the large swath of global GDP, well north of 50 % where actually affecting the physical world really matters. And then finally, I think there are going to be some really exciting developments in applying AI to science. There's Isomorphic Labs, which Thrive is a very proud investor in, which is alphabets, drug discovery, and life sciences AI portfolio. There's a new company called Periodic, which is working on material science, which we are not an investor in, but is doing really awesome work on new materials discovery.

57:01And I think there's this cool question of, at what point, similar to our discussion on Nudge, do science problems become engineering problems thanks to the power of AI? And I'm really excited to see how that transitions and evolves with the next few months. It's a lot to look forward to. I know. We're in a really exciting time. It's really exciting. Bill, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Hey, it's Molly. If you enjoy our interviews, check out our newsletter, Sorcery.bc, where we deliver a once a week top deals and tech headlines email and also go deeper on our podcast interviews. Subscribe to Sorcery today.

57:33And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen. Link in description to sign up.