Saronic's 4 Co-Founders on Building a $9.25B Shipbuilder | Part III

26:40And he broached the idea to me. I was helping him engage with parts of the Marine Corps to kind of get some validation for the thesis. And then the famous line, I've said it a couple of times, is he called me and said, dude I need a you do you want it to just be you and yeah that was kind of the beginning of the journey and it has been a wild ride ever since I picked up my family from northern Virginia where both my wife and I were born and raised very DC centric family and background and just uprooted Austin didn't know anybody except Dino and yeah the rest is history it's been a wild ride. Damn so what does the day-to-day look like for you?

27:19Quite a few airplane trips back to DC of all places, but I have all of our growth functions, our program management, government relations, and then the functions that support those activities, contracts, proposals, and our international portfolio. So the hair is rapidly gray. It's a tight flywheel, though. I think usually you separate the program ops function from the growth and business development group, but A, we're centralized in maritime. B, the autonomous maritime space is a pretty small community of interest, relatively speaking. So we made an intentional decision to have a really tight flywheel where my program teams are talking to customers.

28:05Oftentimes, they're the exact same people our growth folks need to talk to. So it's a good way to deconflict fires and make sure that when we do get a feedback loop from a customer, it's fed into our systems as quickly as possible to squirt out a solution. So Cerronic, I believe, closed government contracts within the first 90 days of founding? One, and it was a cooperative research and development agreement, CRADA, government term of art. And it's essentially a no-cost contract that in exchange for codifying the relationship, you can get access to certain customer requirements or information that may not necessarily be public, not classified.

28:39But it's basically a partnership where in exchange for the government providing you insights, you are kind of acknowledging that they're doing so and anything that's kind of originated out of that, you have to manage the intellectual property guidelines. But at the end of the day, it was a peek behind the curtain that allows you to jumpstart your process. So we did that the same way we do everything, which is just a ruthless seeking of insights from the fleet level. You know, we didn't approach our initial customers at the PEO or now PAE level. We didn't go from the Hill. It was really finding operators and understanding what are the things you're being asked to do that you have to say, yes, sir, yes, ma 'am.

29:25And then you look at each other and say, we don't have what we need to be able to do that. So that is the gold standard for us because we can take that, determine the best way to provide a capability that will address that need. And then we get to iterate with the customer and understand, is this what you need? Do we need to make rudder adjustments? And in some cases, you don't get that feedback. You get one piece of insight and you've got to make a gut call. And I think that's one thing working with Dino, Doug, and Bibb that is great with four founders with totally unique backgrounds. And the Venn diagram overlaps, but just a little bit.

30:01So we can make those gut calls and we'll sit in a room, we'll slap the table and then just ruthlessly execute. A commonality between most of them so far, I don't know, maybe Bibb will say the same thing is that you're a huge fan of acquisition reform. You know, I have scar tissue over a, you know, a long and circuitous career path. So as I said at the beginning, I've seen it from kind of both sides. And when I was still in the Marine Corps, it was a great kind of disarming mechanism where you could look at a contracting officer or a program manager and say, look, dude, I've been in your shoes.

30:36I understand the perspective you're looking at it from. Neither of us are boogeymen on either side of this line. And at the end of the day, the real magic happens acquisition wise when there's trust between both entities and a shared commitment to an end result. So there's a lot going on now. I've never been more excited about real change. The administration's done a fantastic job of pushing real reforms, putting real money behind them and kind of real teeth and consequences behind, you know, not adhering to them. One of the things we've seen in the past in industry is an NDAA piece of language that ultimately yields a report that no one reads and nothing's done about it and people keep moving up the ladder.

31:22The thing we're seeing right now is there's visibility into where the breaks are in the system down to an individual level. If there's a contracting officer that is blocking something that a program manager or leadership or a combatant commander are all aligned on, at the end of the day, you can't have one human who's not tied to the mission making arbitrary decisions based on a guidebook that doesn't have any wiggle for them. So I'm a big fan of kind of command relationships and a program manager or now a PAE who has the risk levied upon them. You are responsible for everything that does or does not happen in your unit.

32:04They teach us that first days in the Marine Corps. How can that be true if someone on your team can overrule your decision and put their foot in the ground and say, I'm not moving until this happens? And we've been in those positions. Sometimes we've had to escalate it. Other times we find a way to work around. But I think at the end of the day, accountability is key. Government employees, you can only incentivize them so much. We talk about aligning incentives. You can only punish them so much, too. There's really limited options there. The one thing you can do is put people in positions of accountability and then hold them accountable.

32:41because nothing's going to motivate them to get someone out of the way or modify a process or a person to get things done. The big one for me is how can we take AI and some of these kind of regulatory processes, agreements officers, contracting officers, the acquisition professional community, mostly great people that are charged with adhering to a myriad group of policies and regulations. And when they're told you've got to do it, I feel for them because they have to abide by this rulebook. I think one thing that could help is using AI to augment the acquisition workforce, because we've come across multiple times where there's a lack of awareness about a new regulation, a new policy that tells them they can do something that they are adamant that they can't.

33:37How do you even fix that? It's hard. I mean, you can't personalize it. When I started my career, I used to get angry at individuals. I used to get angry at policymakers. But at the end of the day, you have to understand what someone's trying to do. And sometimes a commander in the field can get stuff done when someone in the shore establishment can't and vice versa. I think the magic happens when you connect the warfighter and the leader of a program, a leader of a portfolio. That's the quickest way to get everybody on both of their teams singing to the same tune and playing to the same page of music.

34:19The music book's changing kind of by the minute. it. So I feel for everyone. And that's where I think having some tool for a contracting officer to say, yes, this is okay. Because right now I think they're falling back on what's built their careers to this point, which is playing it safe and adhering to old rules. And in some cases, they're not even fully aware of the maneuver space that they have to get things done quickly. Wow. Okay. So as we close out, what are you most looking forward to in the next 12 months? well big sorry yeah i would say sleep this has been a wild four-year ride i think what we've seen in the last couple weeks is tangible examples where the technology that we're creating is having an impact on real people real operations that's tangible and and you can you can touch feel and see what that impact is.

35:18I think that was great for our workforce to put something tangible in front of them that the hours you're putting in are making a difference. I'm really excited to see, as we move into shipbuilding, taking the same technological elements that are in the platforms behind us and putting them into larger and larger ships, because frankly, that gets more and more people out of harm's way. But I think what I'm looking forward to most is shaking the hands of those two Apache pilots. We still haven't found out who they are. And whenever, you know, current ops conclude or we get a chance, that's one thing.

35:54I've told Dino, we have to find a way to get connected to those guys, cameras or not, and shake their hands and thank them for what they've done. Incredible story. It really was. Yeah, it's an honor to be here. And it's great to take people who've never been in defense before and show them that there's a pathway to make a difference in the world. Amazing. Well, Rob, thank you so much. Thank you. Vib, welcome to the show. We are like almost four for four now. Yeah, thanks for having me. So for people who don't know you, you are the CTO of Sironic. How did you get here? Like what was the story in the background?

36:29Yeah, so I grew up in Silicon Valley. I grew up in Cupertino. And so naturally, like everybody around me was, and my parents were also in tech and a lot of people around me were going to software. And so naturally when I got to college, I was like, how do I choose not software to go and work in? And so I started off as a chemical engineer and making a brief detour and playing cricket for a little bit. And then I came back to study electrical engineering. Yeah, I played cricket for a while. And then after college, found myself at 8BC, a venture fund in San Francisco, which I guess is not too uncommon for electrical engineers to go into finance, but maybe, I don't know.

37:06But I was at 8BC. I was working on a company there as part of their build program in the financial services space. And then, yeah, I think I was there when we'd made the investment at Anderil. I'd interviewed at Anderil and ended up joining at the kind of late end of 2018. This was when the company had maybe three products, but the flagship one was a Sentry Tower. So that's kind of what I started working on. I was there for around four years. I worked on a bunch of different things while I was there at a great time. And then in the summer of 22, my old friends at 8VC had put me in touch with Dino, ended up connecting with him, flew down to Austin a couple of times.

37:50He had this grand vision of building autonomous boats. Back then it was actually like hydrofoils, but kind of cascading into boats. But I was like, sounds awesome. Let's go do it. And so, yeah, end of 2022, early 23, ended up moving to Austin. And then, yeah, I've been here since. I have to bring this up, but you said you worked at Juicero? I did. I interned at Juicero in the summer of 2017. Yeah, it was about maybe five or six weeks into my internship that the company ended up shutting down. But, you know, I met some great people there, some of whom now work at Saronic. and yeah it was like kind of being at Andrel and being here we kind of kind of got a chance the luxury and and kind of grateful to experience the hyper growth.

38:32I also at least earlier in my career saw the other side of how startups can go but yeah still fruitful experience. Actually I was a part of the Kleiner Perkins internship fellowship program back then and so that's how I'd kind of gotten introduced to the company and then yeah KP's like back and we have a good relationship with them they're one of our big investors. So yeah, kind of full circle story. So in just four years, you guys have scaled to a $9.25 billion valuation. How do you manage this day to day? What are you focusing on? Yeah. I mean, we don't necessarily wake up thinking about the valuation every day.

39:08The general kind of focus is how do we go and translate early large capital investments into making a meaningful dent into economic capacity, production capacity, technology of the future. So I think for us, building ships, building hardware in general is capex intensive, but building ships in particular is extremely expensive. And so really the focus for us is how do we go and translate that into understanding requirements, understanding what technical needs are, and then really layering that into what parts of the development cycle or design cycle or execution need to be innovated on and how do we translate that into better economics.

39:54So what is your process for development here? Yeah, I mean, it's grown and evolved over time, right? Like our first autonomous boat was like a plastic box we bought from Amazon and put some electronics in it. And, you know, from there to, you know we had a six foot autonomous boat we like evolved that into what you see behind me right now Corsair all of the processes have changed over time and and you know I think a core element of that is that the software development life cycle for robotics has kind of changed a little bit in that time I mean in the past when we you know being being part of different embedded systems projects like your software development cycle was actually quite long and you spend so much of your time debugging hardware.

40:38But you also have to spend the same amount of time writing code. Today with AI tooling, like you can write code a lot faster, but that also means like your debug cycles are a lot faster. And so you spend a lot more time up front now, or it's prudent to spend a lot more time up front, you know, assembling all of your hardware on a bench, testing it there, investing more heavily in observability and simulation. A lot of those things that you typically think about later on in kind of the hardware design cycle, you can actually start to invest in upfront. And so for Marauder, for example, our 180 foot ship, we built all of the internal kind of genset, propulsion stack, bow thruster, all of those components of the ship just in a room before, like probably eight months before the ship was built.

41:18And so we could write a ton of that software. A lot of the iteration cycles around, you know, the delta between what works in sim versus what works in the real world could really get, you're just doing a lot more homework and so by the time the boat actually splashes you're like directly into that application layer you're thinking about what's the user experience going to be how do we improve models you're thinking about things that usually at least historically in a lot of the hardware products that I've worked on in the past just didn't happen as quickly and so that process has kind of evolved a lot one of the pieces of advice that I had gotten earlier on was software typically moves really quickly.

41:58Hardware engineers tend to measure twice and cut once. Software engineers just cut until it looks right, basically. And so how do you slow down the pace of software so you're a little bit more methodical? You think through a lot of the infrastructure choices up front and early on and make very opinionated choices. And on the hardware side, how do you speed up hardware life cycles? So that means that you buy parts early, you build hardware loop systems, you try to reduce them of requirements so that you can kind of go faster. And the nice and kind of magical part about building autonomous boats is that all boats historically have been built for humans.

42:31And so when you actually, you know, thoughtfully choose to design hardware and software together, you actually get to reduce a lot of the complexity. So you can increase the amount of throughput. You reduce the amount of time it takes to actually build the system. So a lot of different kind of parallels there that help us go faster. So are you saying that you are helping place, like figure out where the best sensors will go? Like how do you co-design with the boat? There's a couple of different areas, right? So, you know, first and foremost is obviously in the electronics. So the compute, the electronics architecture, you know, a lot of the focus on the products that we build is around what the government refers to as like modular open systems.

43:12Really what that boils down to in a couple of different places is, you know, you have easy to use software APIs, easy to use hardware APIs, are these well-known protocols, well-known interfaces, right? If you have some arbitrary kind of weird looking plug, somebody has some custom design for you, it's going to be very difficult for you to integrate arbitrary payloads in hardware. And then similarly from a software standpoint, right? If you have some proprietary bespoke protocol, you're going to take someone forever to integrate. But if you have, you know, kind of more plug and play tools, it's a lot faster to integrate payloads.

43:40So we think we start at the electronics kind of layer of making sure we're choosing the right compute, the right interfaces, making sure that the electronics are designed for redundancy in certain areas. So for example, a bunch of different cameras might be on a particular power distribution module. And that allows you to like cycle on and off, like the power to each and each and every one of those. The luxury that that gives you is that now if you need to, you know, engineering 101, right, something's not working, what do you do? You like turn off and turn back on, you now have the ability to do that with software remotely.

44:10And just these are just intentional design choices up front. Similarly for our products, right? Like you're in the middle of, you know, contested RF environments that you're deployed in. A lot of times you don't want to turn on your radar because that reveals your location. Other times you need to power cycle for a variety of different reasons. Maybe it's a particular posture that someone wants to kind of project or, you know, something's not working as you expected it to. There's a bunch of different electronics design decisions up front that help with that. Then the next step is, you know, your sensory and perception stack.

44:41So that revolves around, you know, you probably don't want to use USB cameras, right? There's a bunch of issues with those. How do you design the calibration mechanism for your sensors to all be well calibrated with each other so that when you actually get pushed out into the ocean and something moves around because the ocean is a tumultuous place, you actually have visibility and observability over that. I would say the next phase of the co-design looks like what you said, like sensor placement. Sensor placement can be cameras and radars, but for more complex systems, it could be where do you put different RF antennas that are speaking at different frequencies.

45:15So you don't have, you know, electromagnetic interference over those systems. So it kind of cascades down from a lot of the, it's kind of, you're working backwards from like, what is, what is the user? What are the kind of core, you know, user stories or kind of product outcomes of what you're trying to build. And then you work backwards from there. And then there's a natural overlap into the hardware design. And then finally, from there goes down to the naval architecture, right? Like where do you place your electronics cabinet? How many G-forces is that going to take in, you know, sea state five or six?

45:45What are the downside protections you have against that? And so all of those things kind of end up being part and parcel of the same kind of core, you know, technology or product kind of philosophy of, you know, how are we going to design this in a way that it goes and achieves mission outcomes? What has been the biggest technical challenge? Oh, I mean, there's numerous. I would say that the maritime industry, generally speaking, like for the last n number of decades, right? Like a lot of the components are very analog, right? So you have systems that have primarily been designed and mass produced for humans.

46:19So they don't have like modern software APIs. You don't have good simulation tooling. I remember, you know, in the very early days, we had reached out to a really big marine kind of a marine design firm in Europe. And they were huge. They were one of the biggest ones. And we'd asked them for simulation software. And we were like, we want to get a better understanding of how yours works, like kind of, you know, understand, like, where should we be really starting here? And, you know, every single time we tried to design a boat under 50 feet in their simulation software, there was numerical instability.

46:53And it's a lot of the components, the hardware components as well as software components are just legacy. And so naturally, there's a lot of things you have to do from scratch in certain areas. The other big pieces that are just hard are just building and fielding hardware quickly is just a difficult, arduous, painful process. You learn a lot of things when you put things in the ocean. The ocean's also, again, it's just a tumultuous environment. And so saltwater hits your antennas, you lose quality of service. you send a boat on a mission that's 30 days long you start like there's birds that start just like nesting on on the boat you have you know bio growth biological growth that happens there's biofouling there's all these different challenges across just building and designing for the ocean and I would say the other piece is that you know when you think about UAVs and you know ground vehicles today there actually is a large volume of open source data and information right I think There's a company that just published a massive open source data set for perception in Ukraine.

47:55We've had research labs and the self-driving car industry. We've poured hundreds of billions of dollars into self-driving cars. We've open sourced a lot of great data, a lot of great research. Very sparse in maritime. I think it's for two reasons. One, I think from a commercial standpoint, autonomous boats haven't been blessed with the legal approval necessary from DHS and whatnot. You still have manning requirements on autonomous boats so that you haven't had the economic push. And then on the other side, a lot of the things, as soon as you get into acoustic perception and things subsea, they just get classified really quickly.

48:30And so you just don't have that open source platform to kind of jump off of. Whereas with like UAVs, for example, like you can go home and build a drone this weekend and it's and the parts and software are pretty commoditized. And, you know, you can get to something pretty good pretty quickly. You're not going to add lasers to the boat to fend off birds yet? I don't think that's probably I think we might violate some laws by just shooting birds with lasers. But I don't think we're going to do that. But the middle of the ocean is a crazy place. And being at the surface of the water in particular is a little bit more challenging because you're in a dual fluid environment.

49:02right the surface of the ocean is really the tumultuous part if you're like 10 feet below the surface like you're in a single fluid it's fine like you can plan accordingly but at the surface of the water you're really thinking about that one percent of times or you hit it you catch a bad wave or you go at the wrong speed in the wrong direction and you know you stuff the boat or something like there's all of these like niche like small end of the distribution problems and yet your perception the software all the hardware components all have to be ready to hit that level So a good example of this is like, I think a lot of commercial boats, like you kind of target the human beings to like take like 0.4 to 0.6 G's maybe.

49:40You know, our boats, like we've seen accelerations north of 20 G's before. What? A human would not take that. Or like, you know, you can, you could drive and this boat accelerates pretty quickly too. It'd be very dangerous for a human to be on that if it's going that fast. And so, again, these are all design problems and challenges that you kind of this not like kind of just a newer field to really tackle those with. Whereas like with with drones, like drones are always meant to have no humans. Right. And so like kind of designing for that from the beginning for us, it's like slightly different because there's this kind of merge of like some stuff that's taken from the manned world.

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52:05Get visas handled fast. And get back to building. Visit deal.com slash sorcery. That's D-E-E-L dot com slash sorcery. You have some exciting software to hardware partnerships. You have one with Palantir, Path Robotics, one with NVIDIA. How did you kind of evolve these and what's going on with NVIDIA? With NVIDIA in particular, yeah. So, I mean, obviously, like most of the, I would say, robotics compute today probably runs on some flavor of GPU compute and NVIDIA dominates that market. and nvidia has been a really uh you know powerful partner for us not just in terms of you know procurement and like you know kind of helping us make good decisions when it comes to a lot of the open source tooling or or um kind of some some friendly conversations around what the the kind of next generation simulation tooling will look like the ocean has just been hard to forever it's just like the weather is hard to model like um these have just been active research problems for a long time.

53:04But they've been a great partner there. And then again, from a compute standpoint, you know, NVIDIA is the one we go with. And I think that's what a large number of robotics companies go with too. So I think it's a combination of price point, but predominantly the software layer is just the easiest to move quickly with. And because they have, you know, large market share on the training side, obviously the inference side becomes, easier to go and seamlessly transition into. So that's the nature of our partnership there. With Palantir, it's predominantly related to internal business systems with Foundry to go and accelerate manufacturing and manufacturing effectiveness.

53:42And then with Path Robotics, it's partnerships down in our shipyard at Gulfcraft in Louisiana to help with just accelerating welding, accelerating some of the workflows there. You mentioned redundancies. I can imagine communication, bandwidth, that's pretty hard on the seas. Do you do anything with Starlink? How do you manage those? Yeah, like Starlink and then, you know, Starshield is the defense flavor of it. But yeah, you know, all of the platforms that we build have a kind of what we call is a pace plan. So it's like a basically a redundant set of, you know, communication so that if something goes wrong with one of those systems, you always have a way to communicate.

54:22There's a variety of both beyond line of sight and line of sight kind of RF payloads or devices that you can use to do this. And the main reason for this is that, you know, on one side on the, you know, if you think about this as like a drone, right, you have active jamming. You can have all of these contested RF environments. The nice part about the ocean or maybe the bad part about the ocean is that the ocean kind of does that for you regardless. list. Like if you are in a heavy sea state and you're taking and like water's falling on your antennas and whatnot, you will already see that kind of the ocean's trying to jam you basically.

54:54You'll see a quality service drop. You'll see drop packets and things like that. And so it's really important for us to have that redundancy. Otherwise, if there's a human in the loop or a human on the loop that you want to have some observability, you need the ability to kind of see what's going on. And then the last piece is like if part of the mission is that I need to go to this location and then turn on all of my comms like you need the ability to do that as well so if everything goes out will the boat be able to find its way back will it complete the mission yeah it's a good question um you know i think first and foremost uh that decision is up to the operator in terms of how they want to design the mission so you can go and use our our platform to uh with with the the open apis that we have like you can go and design uh a mission as per your specification.

55:41So you can go and say, if I do lose comms, like I want to keep going. Great. If I lose comms for X amount of time, then I want to actually turn around and come back. Or I want to go back to the last location that I had comms. So you can go and make, you can mission plan whatever kind of arbitrary logic you want. And ultimately, that responsibility is up to the operator. Like they can choose how they want to orchestrate that. And so in certain cases, operators might be like I know I'm going to lose comms I want you to continue and if I get comms back I get them back and if I don't these are the stop gaps that I have in place other times they're like hey this is like internal testing like we actually want to make sure we know where the boat is all the time if the boat loses comms for like x amount of time I want it to loiter or return to base or whatever it might be cool okay as we close out two more questions but what are you most looking forward to in the next 12 months Doug said that's a little bit ridiculous You guys operate in dog ears.

56:36Yeah. You know, I think there's a big difference in the operational cadence when you have hundreds of something versus when you have like five or ten. And so when there's like this amount of proliferation of mass that we can go and kind of build out there, like when we build 20 Marauders or like, you know, hundreds of Corsairs, the volume actually changes the core fundamentals of how that system get used. If you only have one, you're like babying it the whole time. But when you have hundreds, there's all sorts of interesting things that you can do. I'm really excited about that. Obviously, Marauder is a beast in and of itself.

57:13Seeing it on the water is just absolutely magical. And then, you know, getting to the point where you have, you know, a fleet of these that are completely unmanned. It's never been done before. So really excited about that. And then, yeah, I think that the last big piece is like we're continuing to scale the company and, you know, open up new markets. in both defense and commercial. And I think at a high level, the thing that I'm most excited about is I still don't feel like the kind of aha moment has really clicked for a lot of the different markets that if you reduce the overall cost of doing things in the ocean, there's so many new cool things that you can get into.

57:52And right now, like it's, there's just a lot of places in the ocean that's just prohibitively expensive. And so, yeah, I'm really excited about some of the new markets over the next 12 months. Cool. Hopefully you guys find some UFOs in the meantime. Yeah, we'll see. Okay, so this will be the most difficult question. Yeah. What is your hottest take right now? It's not a hot take, I think, but I'm pretty excited about the wave of open source AI. I was going to ask you where you stand on this. Yeah, I'm pretty excited about that. Okay. You know, I think that, you know, one of the reasons why technology is at the place that it is today for us, whether it's your Oura Ring or your iPhone or anything, a lot of it is owed to open source technology.

58:33A lot of it is, it's surprising how much of the internet is based off of a handful of open source repositories that, you know, great engineers have created and not for, you know, not for seeking a bunch of, you know, money on the other side, but really just for pushing the needle of technology forward. And so I'm excited about the wave of open source AI. I think it'll democratize a lot of the tooling, the resources. I think we'll continue to see the proliferation on the hardware side and the CapEx buildouts there. And I think the exciting part to, I think, everyone is that those are the kind of competitive environments that makes technology better for everybody.

59:12And so, yeah, I'm excited about that. It's scary, but it's cool. It's scary? I mean, it's cool. It's not just scary. It's cool. Okay. Well, Viv, thank you so much. This was awesome. Cool. Thank you. Hey, it's Molly. If you enjoy our interviews, check out our newsletter, Sorcery.vc, where we deliver a once-a-week top deals and tech headlines email and also go deeper on our podcast interviews. Subscribe to Sorcery today. And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen. Link in description to sign up.