The broadcast partnership of Joe Buck and Troy Aikman is shattering

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1:26Welcome to the Sports Media Podcast. I'm your host, Richard Deitch. My producer is James Jackson. This is our usual weekend roundtable, chatting about all the sports media news of the moment. And, man, once again, we do not lack for that. Changing up the panel a little bit today, though. I know some people will be very excited about this announcement. John Lewis, of course, is a regular on this podcast, founder and editor of Sports Media Watch. He will be joined by Jimmy Trena. podcast host slash writer for underscore covering sports media. Welcome, John. Welcome, Jimmy. Thanks for having me. All right, Jimmy.

2:07It's good to see you. You've occasionally been a solo guest on this podcast. Is it okay to share the airspace with John Lewis? I mean, listen, my ego doesn't really love it when I'm not solo, but I'll try to suck it up and deal with it for today. I mean, listen, if this, you know, these are the days when I think we all want to yap given what's going on. Well, hopefully this will go smoother than apparently what's going on with the ESPN booth. So this is where I want to start. Not surprisingly, on the day we're taping this Friday, Andrew Marshand of The Athletic, who I believe is probably, you know, we all know very, very well.

2:47in subform, broke a very, very significant story in our world. I don't know if broke is the right word, but he provided what was a really detailed and just an impressive bit of reporting that sort of got behind why Joe Buck and Troy Aikman are in this rift. And it involves, obviously, contracts, and it involves personalities. Saudis. It involves at least one person believing that the other person sort of stabbed them in the back. I mean, it is it's a lot. It's a bit of an opera, as we'll say. So before I get my thoughts on it, I'm going to start with you, John Lewis. I imagine you read the athletic story today.

3:31What were your sort of what's your top line takeaways on it? Well, obviously, this is what the third different deeply sourced in-depth piece. There was one in InTouch Weekly, which is never good. You don't want that. Then there was one by Dylan Byers of Puck. And Dylan Byers' primary beat is CBS News and Bari Weiss. So the fact that he's talking about ESPN, you don't really want that either. This is at least someone in Andrew Marjandu who has covered this industry in ESPN for as long as anybody. And look, I compared it in my article to the Rachel Nichols-Maria Taylor scenario. ago, because that was a circumstance where all of a sudden, all the stories about ESPN, it's overshadowing the big event.

4:16Remember, that broke two days before the NBA Finals. Well, this is the Super Bowl, right? You know, the NBA Finals is the Super Bowl of basketball. Well, the Super Bowl is the Super Bowl of Super Bowls. And for ESPN to have this going on right before that, it's about practice. And I did think it was notable that Marchand mentioned very specifically the role of Burke Magnus in allowing this to happen. And look, you can't have two of these, really three, because you might want to throw in the Van Gundy and Jackson on the NBA as well. You have three of these circumstances with your properties that are one in the NFL, 1A, NFL, well, no, NFL's one.

4:59And then NBA and college football might be 2A and 2B, right? But those are your top three properties and ESPN has mismanaged its top booth and its studio on the NBA side uh it's it's something that I don't know a lot of executives could necessarily survive uh Jimmy initial thoughts we'll obviously get into some more granular stuff uh initial thought uh two there are two the first I think there is one line in that story that I'm almost surprised isn't getting enough more attention. And it was Troy saying to Joe, I never thought you'd do this to me. Yeah. Well, I thought, I mean, that was, I mean, you don't think that feels like the godfather line to me.

5:47That did stand out. Well, I think for a few weeks here, the public has thought that it was ESPN that doesn't want Troy Aikman back. I don't know if that's the case, given that line by Troy. And what I think we knew, but confirmed by Marchand, Joe Buck signed that contract in the spring. Someone had told me May and didn't tell Troy.

6:27that is i'll just say that doesn't seem kosher to me okay so here's what i'll focus on you guys can sort of go wherever you want on this and john you sort of hit on this a little bit um again full marks to marchand this to get the level of detail that he got in this piece and let's make the presumption that it's accurate understanding Yeah, understanding that people have agendas, you know, executives have agendas, talent has agendas, agents have agendas. This is not easy stuff to get. And it's really to see it in print is amazing. I remember a similar story that I worked on. Nowhere near, I think, is the kind of work that Marcia had to put in to get this.

7:11I did sort of the breakup of Mike and Mike's story. And I can just sort of tell you like the navigation on that was try to figure out what was real, what was going on behind the scenes, who was saying what and why, who had the agenda. These are not easy stories to do. And again, so I give him full marks. It is very, very impressive feeder reporting. And maybe perhaps nobody else in the business right now could have done it. So, John, the thing that I think about here is that, and Jimmy had said this too, you have a Super Bowl coming up. This is the most ambitious, arguably, I don't know if I want to say the most important thing ESPN has ever done because they'll always do something important.

7:49I think the World Cups are very important. But I think all three of us can agree, this is in their top five most important things they've ever done. They had been wanting this for so long. It's the NFL. They hired a person to literally just think about the Super Bowl for the entire year like that's Andy Tennant's job. and now we're sitting with this laundry exposed publicly and what are we in week week seven am i correct about that jimmy and john week weeks week eight what i'm trying to get at is how on earth can this thing work until the super bowl maybe those two guys who are both professional can just like sit in the booth and do it and i know historically in broadcasting there's probably been people who haven't loved each other who've done games but we're talking like months away from the super bowl and as a viewer you want like this exciting build-up with joe and troy like about to take you on this journey so john like again i find myself just like bewildered at the situation espn management finds itself in it's week seven we're not even close to the playoffs and how are these guys going to navigate this stuff?

9:04I mean, you make an excellent point. The fact is sometimes the booth overshadows everything else. So you can go to the more serious side, Marv Albert back in the 90s, and that was in the middle of the conference finals that that went on. They managed to keep it together all the way through to the NBA finals, but it's a different world than it was back then. And it was a pretty arduous world back then with all the tabloid attention that was on that. So, look, Joe and Troy may not be acting like professionals from the air, but they are acting like professionals on the air. I think that's the most important thing.

9:39You would never be, look, most of the people, 18.8 million people, according to Nielsen, were walking Monday Night Football this past week. And 18.0 million of them have no idea what's going on, right? Because this is a niche. Sports media is a niche. Definitely. That's true. I think if you don't know what's going on, then you would never be able to tell what's going on. Jimmy, you're someone again who, Jimmy, you're like paying attention to your phone. I mean – I'm listening to every word. Okay. All right. I hope so. So you're someone obviously who's covered the intersection of sports and celebrity for a long time.

10:15Well, wait. I wanted to get that same question from you. You were going to get it. I'm just – I'm prefacing it. Yeah, it's professional hosting here. What I was going to say is, you know, you mediocre hosting, you know, better than anyone that the New York Posts of the world and places like that are they're salivating, I would think. Right. And finding any potential stuff that could happen between now and the Super Bowl. I just I don't know how this isn't a story heading into the next couple of months. So after you, you you're the one who got the whole ball rolling on this with your podcast with Troy.

10:48so Troy went on your podcast revealed he didn't have a contract this was after we knew Joe had a contract then he did an interview on Dallas radio where he said doesn't see himself coming back I spoke to him that day I had gotten a couple of quotes from him that I had put out there and I had asked him, how do you work the rest of the season given this situation? And he was completely adamant, not a problem, won't be an issue. And he's good to go for the rest of the season. Now, what I knew at that time is that I knew the leaks would keep coming and the leaks are going to keep coming. So now it's a little bit different than when I spoke to him.

11:43That was probably, I think, two weeks ago now. Yeah, and give, I don't know if you were going to say this, but give Ryan Glass-Begel, Front Office Sports, the credit because he is the first person to mention whatever this initial public blow-up was at a Monday night game. Right. Now, if I'm Troy, you have all this going on. on top of which I'd be livid that one, someone leaked that someone from ESPN leaked that to Glasspiegel. Then someone we don't know who leaked it, but he should. Yeah, he should. OK, I'm saying he should be pissed that someone leaked it. We don't know if it was an ESPN or leaked it.

12:24Well, here's how you know it's an ESPN person. Go ahead. A week later, there was more stuff leaked about that argument to a different writer. So that was when the report came out that Joe confronted Troy. I think it was Puck who had it. I could be wrong. So, you know, it's someone from ESPN. It's not a stadium person because it was a week later that there were more details. So, and now obviously, you know, all this stuff from Mark. Now listen, now what Martian has, Martian had obviously is coming from agents and, and other, you know, sources more than just ESPN. But if ESPN has made it clear, they re-signed Joe, they're not going to re-sign Troy.

13:04If I was Troy Aikman, I would be ready for leaks all year long because you've already seen it. He yells at producers. He asks for Brady money. This is going to keep happening. And to your point, four more months, four more months, November, December, January, February, they have to work together. I'll be blown away. I understand it's a Super Bowl. You don't want to mess up a Super Bowl. It's the most important thing, blah, blah, blah. I would be more surprised if they lasted the whole year than if they didn't. Wow. That's a big statement. They're both professionals, but you also now have this thing sort of over your head.

13:40John, let me go back to you, and Jimmy, I do want you to get your take on this. Jimmy's correct. They very clearly have made a choice in terms of prioritizing Joe Buck over Troy Aikman, and I think the reason for that, it's pretty obvious. You can connect the dots. I think ESPN wants to get back into baseball, and I think they could see Joe Buck as the voice of the World Series. Joe Buck has done things like Sports Jeopardy and other stuff within the Disney universe. And then lastly, probably there's a calculation that it's harder to maybe get a great play-by-play person right now than a great NFL analyst who are out there.

14:14So I understand the calculation to re-sign Joe Buck. I think Joe Buck's phenomenal. He's been on this podcast a million times. I don't need to shower his praise. He knows that. I think he's excellent. But, John, this is what I don't get. at the beginning of the year, what was the thinking of not signing both guys? I get Aikman. If we believe Marchand to be accurate, Aikman saw what Brady's getting, and he's asking for a crazy number. If you're ESPN, I get it. You have to live in the reality. They have budget cuts and layoffs, and the Brady thing was just a unicorn kind of thing. but shouldn't like how do i ask this of you john like they they have i think what most people believe they have the best booth right now they have the best working booth so how could you not have gotten every am i too simplistic to say how could you not get everybody in the room together because this feels like a communication issue and just work it out because you have the best booth like if you have kobe and maybe kobe and chuck's a terrible example you know saying if you have two great players you figure out a way to keep those two great players like what am i missing here well based on just reading the tea leaves it seems to me like this has been a problem for a long time with buck and aikman and the way that they've meshed or not meshed with people inside the sbn you can go back to the burke madness quote to andrew marchand about how they felt that their broadcast wasn't as good as cbs or fox that's burke madness saying that uh and i think a lot of that behind the scenes turnover, you know, I remember hearing or writing about the turnover that was going on behind the scenes.

15:55You say to yourself, well, if this wasn't Joe Buck and Troy Aikman, I'd think there was a problem here. And now, of course, we realize there is one because you can't have the number of people cycling in and out without it being an indication that something isn't working. The fact that it worked so well to a viewer while it was working so poorly behind the scenes tells me that there's probably a real problem with the way that this has been working out probably the whole time. And then the other side of it is all we've ever heard with Buck and Aikman is what great friends they are and what a great relationship they have.

16:31But everything that I've been reading indicates that this is multiple years, that this goes back before any of this contract stuff started. And that's what's been implied, at least in the Dylan Byers piece. so to me i think espn also maybe is starting to feel itself a little bit there was a lot of humility i think after everything that went down with the john skipper era and how that relationship sprayed with the nfl and uh they kind of felt like maybe behind the eight ball a bit but i think in the pataro era you know some of the things they've been doing they've been getting a little brash right they've been feeling themselves a bit and i think they think hey we got fucking Aikman, we can get rid of Aikman and just get somebody else and still ride hot.

17:17I think there's maybe an element of a little Jerry Krause kind of aspect going on there. Drink up, baby. Fantasy Football Happy Hour is here to get you wins and have some laughs. Matthew Berry here and my podcast, Fantasy Football Happy Hour, has the sleepers, bust, and start-sit advice you need to win your league. We're diving into the tape. We're crunching the numbers to bring you sleepers bust weekly start sit advice whether you're defending a title or desperately avoiding last place i've got you covered every single weekday the bar is open it's fantasy football happy hour with matthew berry wherever you get your podcasts what about you jimmy i mean again like unless something has really dramatically changed like these guys were very tight like anytime you i mean we're not spending time with them but anytime i interviewed either guy they wax poetic about the other guy love joe joe's great we've spent time like with each other away from the booth, et cetera.

18:12I mean, maybe things have changed, but if it got this bad, this quick, that would, I guess that would surprise me just given where I thought it was a couple of years ago. A couple of things. Sure. I can tell you that, well, from what I have heard, this did not deteriorate quickly. I think John hit on it. I think this has been going on since they left Fox and went to ESPN. Okay. That I've been told. Also, my second podcast ever that I did for Underscore, I had Joe Buck on. So this was early September. I asked Joe, because we didn't know at the time the contract, this was before all the shit hit the fan.

18:58I said, could you see yourself working with someone other than Troy? Not a half of second pass where he said absolutely. okay that's interesting and it took me aback because i remember in that moment being taken aback by it because i think even if you think that most people don't say it they do this the generic bullshit oh you know i would never want another partner you know joe let it fly and then i'm just i'm just going by looking at what's out there like you you say you can't figure it out. You're confused. I think it's I think it's so blatant. Joe said to Troy, so what? You're not fucking talking to me now.

19:41So so so now we know Troy's not speaking to Joe. Yeah. Well, again, just to be clear. And first of all, listen, I could have gotten played. I'm talking about a couple of years ago. I think everything that's going on now, I sort of get that. But yes, go on. Joe did that based on March and reporting. That is the conversation. Right. So now Troy is not speaking to Joe. Then Troy's line to Joe is, I can't believe you did this. I didn't think you would do this to me. Then add in, Joe signs his contract in the spring, and Troy doesn't find out until September.

20:20Clearly, you can see what's going on here, I think. if that's how it played out you're right that's not two guys who are tight who are talking every day texting each other and you know and it's fair that's a fair comment john um

20:36i think if you look at the tea leaves john the tea leaves not the right word if you look at the landscape there really is no landing spot for aikman other than netflix right it depending on what they might want to do next year, but maybe Luke Hickley for them is like the guy. I don't think, I mean, again, this is not based on reporting. This is just sort of based on me. I don't get the impression that Prime Video would blow out Kirk Herbstreet for Aikman with Aikman being available. By the way, I think it'd be an upgrade, unquestionably so. I just, not sure I... That's a really, really dumb stance for...

21:11By Prime? Yeah, I agree. I mean, if you have a chance to get Troy Aikman over Kirk Herbstreet for the NFL, you shouldn't even think twice, but maybe they, I'm not sure they're, they blow out Herb tree for that. So John, like I look around and I think the odds are more than not that Troy Aikman is not doing games next year. And then if you want to extrapolate what Marshan is saying, Olsen does certainly seem to be a candidate, but I don't think Olsen's a lock for ESPN. I mean, I haven't covered ESPN long enough to know, like they would love the idea of the Kelsey's in the booth or Manning's in the booth that, that fits their entire POV to a T.

21:47But let's start with Aikman, the first one. Like, can you think – you've covered sports media, and you're a great historical reference. Can you think of – maybe it was Jeff Van Gundy. Can you think of like a time when the best analyst like is not working the following year? Like the best current working analyst then doesn't have a gig the following year? Well, you said a Jeff Van Gundy would be a great example, a great recent example. you know i mean i think these things do kind of happen sometimes when it gets to a circumstance where it's just not working behind the scenes i mean i think all of us kind of if you want to go and do the history thing and i'm not comparing them because obviously it's a bit different but i think everybody knows rick barry was talented and good at the analysis job he was even did some play by play but he never had the tv career that he could have had because he did not mesh well with others.

22:38So once you get that personal aspect in there, that's going to be a problem. And, you know, as you said, it's musical chairs, and there's not going to be a spot available because I actually kind of agree with you on the idea that, you know, look, obviously, if they want to upgrade from Herbstreet, pretty much anybody with all due respect to Kirk Herbstreet would be an upgrade. Other people cover the NFL more than Kirk Herbstreit does. But I also feel like some of this might stick to Troy a little bit. This is back to back. The same thing happened at Fox, now it's happening at ESPN, and he toss.

23:14He's going to put your business. Joe Buck hasn't said anything. Nobody has actually said anything publicly except for Troy Aikman. And the thing is, you know, doing this business, if you miss one Troy Aikman quote, just wait a few days, and you'll get another one. And then you'll get to catch up at that point. So I might not want to deal with that when I could have a low-maintenance guy who's not as good at the job, which would be Kirk Herbstreit. Jimmy, let me go to you. If you had to do a little fantasy football, not fantasy football, if you had to do a little fantasy broadcasting here, what would you be, if you try to get inside the mind of ESPN executives, We're making the presumption Troy's not coming back.

24:00At this point, I don't see any possibility of that happening. So what are they thinking come March, April? I think Greg Olson's a lock. Okay. And why a lock?

24:18I don't know what to say here. He's a lock. Just say that. This is more of your just – are you basing this on something you may know or you're just feeling? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right. John, do you agree on that? Locke? I would not go to Locke levels, personally. Well, I have to imagine if you're going to say Locke, then that means that there's something behind the scenes that's being said. To me, just based on from my outside looking in perspective, I kind of feel similarly the way that you do, Richard, which is that maybe Greg Olson isn't the sexy pick. and ESPN has gone way deep into style over substance, like way overboard into it.

25:04To me, I don't think Olsen is a style guy. He's a substance guy. That's why he lost the number one gig to Tom Brady, the ultimate sexy pick. And he also, remember, I'm pretty sure it was Marshawn again, right? I mean, Marshawn, I mean, he's everywhere. We should do this podcast at Ithaca College. It's so Marshawn related, but go ahead. Yeah, but I mean, it was Marchandu reported earlier this year that, oh, I'm sorry, actually, it was John O 'Rand. Sorry. All right. Back to the University of Maryland. Love it. Who reported that Olsen's contract already allows him an out if he gets the number one job.

25:44Now, there haven't been any of those open, but based on the way Amazon is kind of treating Herbstreet now, you know, I mean, Olsen's been available. Nobody's come knocking. And I think it's because what Olsen does really well is something that isn't as valued anymore. He just does the job well. But he doesn't bring any personal attributes, any individual fame. He's kind of like those old school analysts, really, maybe even like a Tim Legler type, where the people who you're trying to impress, they didn't know who he was when he was playing. Yeah, by the way, I think that was Marchand who broke that first, just by the way, now that I think about it.

26:22And secondly, because I can confirm this part because this was in my SBJ profile. The Olsen out is before or after the season. So Olsen can leave for a number one job. You can't do it during the year. You can't do it when the season's over. But obviously, if you're ESPN by the letter of the contract, you just – you know, you officially talk to the guy and or his agent in – you know, after the Super Bowl. So if that's the case. um i wouldn't so the i would just end it this like i think olsen is the favorite for sure i just wouldn't put it in a lock because i'm with john jimmy and that fact that espn loves shiny shit and like you do wonder if somehow like travis and jason tell them we'd love to do monday night football you can be in the travis and taylor business uh that's gonna be a hard one to turn down i i don't that's not based on reporting it's just based on my sort of throwing out the olsen any okay well we'll we'll play this in in february it'd be fun either way anything else on this and if not i'm gonna move on but is there anything else you guys want that i add to this we've now gone 25 minutes on this no no okay you do what you want you're the host let's turn to let's turn let's go ahead what's up let me see let me see in a little go ahead all right yeah please because i do think that this looks really bad outside of what what we do here and what ESPN fan does.

27:44People are looking around and they're saying the people talking about the games are making this ridiculous amount of money and feuding over it. I think it just looks really bad to the average fan. It was interesting reading that article by Marchand. It's so detailed. It's the basis for a book down the line about all of this. And then the comments are all, oh, these clowns. That's the way people see this. They see it as a bunch of clowns who aren't good. And you can listen to the game without them and it'd be fun, which of course is not true, but that's the way a lot of people see it. And sometimes when people get really involved in their feelings, they don't realize that everybody else can see them.

28:23Yeah. And, and you make a great point, John, and it's just going to be magnified when the Superbowl comes up, if this situation is still going on, because there's no way to escape. It's not going to be a major story at the Superbowl. All right. On a more celebratory mode, let's talk about Ernie Johnson, who announced that this was going to be his last year in Inside the NBA. He, I think, is on the short list for the greatest sports studio host of all time. He fronted the best sports studio show of all time, so I think he has a right to that claim. Did it in a usual, typical Ernie Johnson style, sort of dignified and understated.

29:00I'll start with you, though, John. This feels very seismic to me because you don't know how this show is going to be without Ernie. And then I think when Barkley goes, like it's really going to be different. Like inside the NBA will never be the same once Barkley goes for sure. And I think it's going to be very different without Ernie. Do you agree? Well, I'm surprised that anyone is talking about inside the NBA continuing. So let's start with the simple fact that this is a show on ESPN and ABC that is produced by AT &T Sports that is run by the president of CBS, right? I mean, it's an absurdity already.

29:42And the only reason why the show came back was because you had the core four. And I think it was always viewed as a stopgap. Sometimes that happens. Spots had MLB Network doing their studio show for two years because they couldn't figure out what they were doing. And then they came out of that with Burkhart, A-Rod, eventually Ortiz, that Pete Rose there for a little bit too, but ultimately they've had continuity in the decades since. Sometimes you need a couple of years to figure out what you're doing. Problem is, I don't think ESPN's been actually doing anything to try to develop its own studio show.

30:18Because the way I see it is, even if Ernie wasn't retiring, I don't know how long this could continue to go on given all the changes at CBS Sports, at TNT Sports. We don't even know if they're going to keep that Atlanta studio. I mean, does it make any sense for them to have a New York studio and an Atlanta studio. It's the same division now. So to me, this was always something that had as a very likely scenario and endpoint in this year. And the idea that they're just going to replace Ernie, I mean, that's impossible. I know they had the secondary studio team for a while with Lefkoe. And frankly, that was that secondary studio team with Lefkoe and Candace Parker was better than ESPN's done on the NBA studio side in a long time.

31:04But frankly, I don't think that there's going to be a replacement. And obviously if Charles leaves, and maybe one of you two knows more about this than I do, isn't it the case that ESPN's contract has an out for a circumstance where the cast changes and certainly where Charles is not part of it? I mean, Charles is, as much as anything, the core of that show. not quite to the level that Ernie is to heart and soul but when we talk about the fame and profile of it Charles is the guy and Jimmy we're not so far removed from Barkley saying that he was going to go now you know I'll believe it when I see it but the point is like we are coming to the end like at some point these are guys who are not in their 30s anymore you know Ernie's 70 and Charles is in his 60s so it feels that Ernie Johnson thing to me felt really seismic because I think it's the beginning of whatever this becomes.

31:59Yeah. You know, it's funny. I was, I was chuckling a little bit when John was speaking, because when I did my podcast yesterday that came out today with Sal Licata, who's a colleague of mine, who doesn't, who is not a sports media person trying to explain that this is a show that airs on ESPN, but it's run out of Atlanta by Turner, but now it's skydance like his head was spitting so you know it is crazy i was not shocked by the ernie thing because charles barkley in recent weeks has given a bunch of interviews saying he's retiring after this season and it's his last season because ernie's gone after this season this was out there so i don't expect barkley to be back i don't you know ernie said he's not coming back i wrote in my newsletter on thursday this should be the end of the show they i don't think they should put another now you can find great all-time hosts scott van pelt i i just still think you don't put them in there you're doing a disservice to van pelt there's going to be comparisons all the time but i don't think they're even going to have that opportunity because barkley's going to go so maybe you're left with shack and kenny you give them another show with another host don't call it inside the nba make it different and that's fine but that name should not be used and that format should be changed a little bit if ernie's not there and if charles is not there then obviously the whole thing's blown up well that's the thing john well i'll leave you with the last word on this it's just like i don't know what shack and kenny like what what what what would that be i mean yeah you obviously can put a show together with shack kenny and a host but you know me and you are big inside the nba honks we have seen some of these specials where they'll just have like a couple of the guys and maybe not ernie it's not the same it's just never and out Of all those guys, Kenny's the one who's done other ESPN stuff.

33:48Yeah. They put him on the NBA countdown. Is that what it's still called? And then I, I think he's done some of the daytime shows. I just, I'm with Jimmy on that. I just, I, once Charles decides to go, like it's just not inside the NBA anymore. And you want, you wonder if they just become whatever, you know, whatever, whatever, whatever the, they just, you know, it's the, now the ESPN or ABC pregame show. Do you know what I mean? It just seems like to continue it with – it's like doing friends with three of the castmates. It just doesn't make sense to me. Our Golden Girls when they lost Bea Arthur and brought in Don Cheadle and Pete Maron.

34:28Look, the fact is that ESPN might have to outsource that to Amazon next. They might have to get Dirk and Steve Nash in there. I don't know. I do think that Kenny has aspirations to continue doing this outside of inside the NBA. He always has. I remember him doing some studio stuff for NBC back in the old days with Hannah Storm during the conference finals in 2002. You know, he did Fox Sunday night ACC games for a while as well in college basketball. So he's not tied to TNT. And he's obviously, as Jimmy said, done NBA countdown. down. I think the host is going to be tough. Scott Van Pelt is the one person in this industry who has enough of what Ernie Johnson has that he could sit there with that returning cast and it wouldn't drop off a cliff.

35:20It would not be the same, but it would not drop off a cliff. But again, what is the upside for him? We're going to have Scott Van Pelt flying down to Atlanta, you know, once a week to do this, but he's already doing Monday Night Countdown and it's a thankless job because he can't beat Ernie. And Scott, by the way, is also 60 years old as well. So it's not like he's at the beginning of his career. He's at the point of his career where he can be selective. So to me, it just makes sense to end it. I mean, this is a show that has lasted way longer. It outlasted TNT's rights deal. That is unheard of.

35:58It has gotten two extra years. They're going going to do the NBA finals a second time. And then, you know, everything's got to end. I mean, we don't live in a time where you just have eternal time. Ernie said something that I don't think had ever been reported. He had bypass surgery 14 months ago. That is a massively consequential life event. And given all the health issues he's had, not just the cancer that he suffered through, but also the blood clots that he had back in 2011 caused him to miss the baseball playoffs. You know, if he, it's time, it's time for him to be able to live the rest of his life.

36:39And it's time for the rest of us to let go of inside the NBA. It had its run and it's going to end. The only problem is, does ESPN have any ideas at all that are, you know, better than just going back to Perkins and all the things that were failing so miserably in that 2025 finals. A beautifully designed Squarespace website is the difference between thinking about photography school and selling your portraits online. It's the difference between giving away those cookies you just made for free and running your cookie empire. A beautifully designed Squarespace website is the difference between having a movie reviewing hobby and a movie reviewing career.

37:22Squarespace, because no matter what you're into, a website makes it real. Use offer code DIFFERENCE for 50 % off select plans. Terms and conditions apply. All right, we'll move to two more topics. I'll get you guys out of here. We'll do the World Series. The last game, Game 5 clincher, drew 14.2 million viewers. At least that was projected. I imagine it'll be around there. From talking to the Fox folks, I think this did better than they thought just in terms of the viewership-wise with a Tampa Bay-Milwaukee World Series. Jimmy, I'll go to you. John's obviously the viewership expert, so he can sort of give me some takes on that.

37:59But you're a baseball fan. You watch the Yankees die hard. I have to be honest. When I saw these numbers, there were more people who watched this World Series than I expected. I didn't expect it to be the lowest, but I thought it would be really close to the lowest. And so my thought was that maybe Milwaukee just turns out to be kind of a cooler story nationally than maybe I gave them credit for when they headed into the series. You got some thoughts on that? You know what? I don't, and I know that's the problem. You're supposed to come out and be like, this is why this World Series did way better than we all expected.

38:32I have no idea why this World Series did better than we expected. I'm with you. I didn't think they'd get to$14 million for a game given the two teams that were there. So clearly I'm missing something. but I think you know especially what surprises me too is you know they started on a Friday Saturday and they still got a good number it is amazing though I mean it's just you can't help I can't help I don't want to speak for anyone else I can't help but be in awe of still the NFL domination like the World Series was like 12 million 13 million then the night they go up against Monday Night Football 8 million and then 12 million like as soon as there's a football game, people run away.

39:15It's, it's unbelievable. But I, like you did not think it would, the ratings would be as high as they were for the world series. So great for baseball. I don't know. Maybe there's some like perverse, like, let's see what happens before there's a lockout. I don't know. I honestly don't know. John, um, when you look at the numbers, what are your thoughts? The one thing that's really, um, stands out to me is that game three, 8.3 million viewers like that's for the world series that it makes your head spin how low that is and so you might be thinking all right these guys just bottom out and whether it's a game four whether it's a game five they're done but they popped they popped in those next two games well that was the game that went against mother night football game yeah and so like you know like maybe i i don't i mean i don't know how many people it would affect but i think jimmy could be on to something maybe there were some people who were like this is the last chance we're gonna see baseball maybe until like next July.

40:10And so like going to check this out. But I think I do something while you were speaking. If anyone from Major League Baseball or Fox is listening to this, let me throw a suggestion. Yeah, there'll be some. Keep your schedule the same. Started on a Friday. Do Friday, Saturday, off Sunday. Play the Monday game at four o 'clock in the afternoon. I bet you at four o 'clock on Monday, they would have had more than eight million viewers going against Monday Night Football. Not sure about that. But anyway, it's an interesting suggestion. John, what about you? You're the viewership guy. Well, you know, I will say it's not usually that bad when they go up against Monday Night Football.

40:46This was extra bad. Usually there is a real dip from that Saturday game two to the Monday game three. But this was beyond what is normal. And I think it's because of the 10 to one score. Remember the Brewers scored eight runs in the fifth. I think that was a factor. This series did way better than I was certainly thinking. I was very much like you, Richard. I thought it wasn't going to be a record low, but I thought it was going to be a lot closer to record low than where it ended up. You take game three out, this is one of the more impressive over-performances that I've seen in a while. But because of the game three, I mean, the fact is, that's kind of where I thought you would see more games.

41:25I'll put it this way. If you presented the game three number to me at the start of the series and the game five number and asked me, which one do I think is more likely to occur? I would have said the game three number. So, you know, to me, I don't know why. Obviously, we know Nielsen methodology has changed, but I don't think that's enough to account for this. Rangers D-backs back in 23, you know, four of the five games were under 10 million. Three straight were under 9 million. You had three straight games in that 8 million range. And again, there have been some significant methodological changes since then, but nothing that would get those series to 13 and 14 million.

42:04I think the fact that teams were number one in their respective leagues had to have helped. But then the race didn't show up. I mean, maybe that's not fair. Games one and two were close. But certainly this was no epic series with a lot of great play. But let me ask you, because you were saying something that I was saying a lot in the LCS. I was very high on a Brewers-Guardians World Series. Same. I was too. I'm curious if you think these numbers that we saw, excluding game three, for Brewers Rays or about what you expected for Brewers Guardians? No, it would have been higher. I mean, I guess my caveat would be if it's a four-game sweep, it is what it is.

42:44But the Guardians had the same kind of Cinderella story that the Brewers did for that fan base. And I think people would have gotten into the fact that one of these two teams with a long drought is going to win. I know the Cubs are not the Guardians or the Brewers, but there was a reason why that World Series was incredible. it's because I think just the average casual sports fan can wrap their head around a team that's never won for a half century. That's just a cool story, even if you're not into the team. So that's sort of where I go. All right, last one, and then we'll get both of you out of here on this.

43:14Jimmy, you're welcome to comment or not comment on this. I know you don't do a ton on the WNBA, so I'll start with John. John, the WNBA gets bailed out in the biggest way by the dream-winning Game 6. So now we have a Game 7. Game 7 is on USA Network and CNBC and Peacock. I think I'm right about that. I think those are the three. A Game 7 on an NBC or an ABC would be real interesting in terms of what viewership number they can get to, but it's still Game 7, and I think the viewership number will be good. Do you have any thoughts as to where this will land? And it's just fascinating because this is the first Game 7 ever in the history of the WNBA.

43:53Yeah, Game 7 means something that Game 5 just doesn't. And so I think that'll help, obviously. USA Network, you know, look, it's weird that it's a game seven on a weekend and it's not on NBC. I'm not quite sure. I've heard a few conflicting things as to why. But to me, you know, how many ever games NBC has contractually, whatever other events NBC has on on a given weekend, you got to find a way to get that game seven on NBC. And I know maybe there's some reluctance to put the WNBA on primetime broadcast TV, but the NWSL has gotten a regular season game on primetime weeknight broadcast TV before when Megan Rapinoe was retiring.

44:38And so, I mean, the WNBA finals is a heck of a lot bigger draw than that. And so to me, if it had to be a Friday night game, all due respect to Reba McIntyre, maybe you preempt Happy's place one week and you get the WNBA on there. I do think that this game could get maybe, it's not going to be the most watched game of the season. And that's what makes the WNBA different from other leagues, right? Game seven of the finals, in my view, I could easily be wrong. I was wrong about the World Series. I could be wrong here. It could be the case that maybe it surpasses that, I think it was, Fever Sky game on NBC.

45:12That had 3.31 million in the regular season. I doubt it. So it's probably not going to get to that point. But if you can get, you know, maybe most watched finals games since XYZ, right? I think right now the most watched finals game since like 2000 was the game five, the winner take all game five and 24 Liberty Lynx. 2.15 million ESPN opposite Sunday Night Football. I think this could surpass that. And that gives you a nice storyline to end the year on. And then you try to do, well, next year it'll be easy. ESPN is the finals. Uh, but, uh, next time you try to figure out a way to get those biggest games, the biggest spotlight they can have.

45:53All right, Jimmy, you got any thoughts on this one? Well, you know, I'm, I'm just looking, I mean, I don't know what the crossover audience is, but I see that NBC has Ohio state USC at seven, which is a very good game for them. And they all, and then on, you know, on ABC at the same exact time is Miami, which is the number one team in the country against Bill Belichick. Yep. So tough. And I also think, and, you know, just take WNBA out of it. It's also Halloween. So you might have people parties, trick-or-treating kids. So I would say it's an uphill battle for them. I just want to be, I saw something I want to, I just want to make sure I saw this right.

46:33The WNBA has been around a really long time now. This is the first ever game seven in a finals. Is that because, were they best of five for a long time? Yeah, that's because they were best of five. Yeah. It's not about the series itself. It's just that they advanced it. So that's why. But Jimmy, you make a great point. I was just going to say, like, I had forgotten about that Miami-North Carolina game. That's a sneaky viewership game because people are always interested in Belichick. Right. I just think, listen, I hate any time it comes up where there's a big, big game. So here you have a big game, game seven of the WMA finals.

47:07That is a big game. I hate when it's not in a standalone or in a – You know, I even mentioned like before with the baseball going up against Monday Night Football. I wish there was ways to schedule things where you can get the most amount of people watching. And I know people say you're old. There's two screens. Everyone has a phone. Everyone has an iPad. You can watch two things at once. But I miss the days when something was a big event. You know what I mean? Yeah, totally. You know, we have everyone tuning into the same thing. But those days are old. It's just hard. We're at September, October.

47:37That's just hard. It's hard to avoid. There's too many sports playing. you just hard to it's hard to hard to get the window but i'm with you on that like it you you you would love to see like what could the wmb finals do with no comp like it'd be interesting could it get five million and and it has to be on nbc like yeah like you just like it's terrible john and i will hear from us now usa network uh pr but uh i hear from fox pr all the time it's gonna it's gonna cut it's gonna cut viewers significantly it just is the the same thing with baseball when baseball's on fs1 instead of fox it makes your sport look so low rent and it makes the wa look low rent that they're on usa instead of nbc but i'm not going to fault nbc for not pulling off ohio state which is like the top rated school for ratings against usc yeah so it's a no wind there's nothing you can do it's yeah i mean obviously college football's beating the wma finals that's not really the discussion here all right catch uh Catch John Lewis at Sports Media Watch.

48:35Catch their podcast. John, any guests coming up that you want to promote? Yeah, our Bomani – excuse me, try to say again. My Bomani Jones episode is coming out this weekend. We still have our Evan Washburn episode to put out and, of course, the usual discussion as well. Jimmy, for you, any interesting guests coming up that you just had or you want to promote? Say again. I have Joe and Troy this week. That would be an amazing guest. I had Dave Pesch this week. It was great. You know, he's good. He flies under the radar, but is so good. And I'm going to have the author of a Larry David book on the show going outside the sports.

49:11Jimmy, you are very tight with both Joe and Troy. Will you make the ask? I don't know if they're going to do it, but will you make the ask at some point? Not together, but like so. I'm sure you've made the ask. I'm not saying, but. Right. So exactly. So what are you asking me for? If you're not saying. Fair enough. Fair enough. All right. Catch Jimmy Tran's work. Don't give Derek Volner a stroke. Yeah. No kidding. Catch Jimmy Traynor's work, obviously. At his establishment, catch John Lewis's as well. Stick around, fellas, as I clean this up here. Previous podcast, last couple ones, I went off the board totally for the last one with Kyle Kondik, who's the managing editor of Sabato's Crystal Ball, where we talked about election forecasting.

49:49That was a lot of fun and hopefully relevant as the U.S. midterms are coming up on Tuesday. We've done a ton of roundtables. John Lewis has been on this podcast a million times. Last roundtable before this one was why CBS locked up J.J. Watt. We talked about WNBA broadcasts as well. Should they be more critical? Michael Grady, speaking of an excellent play-by-play guy in the NBA, was on this podcast on October 21st. Check that one out. Peter King, who's done a million podcasts. Jimmy's colleague, old colleague, my old colleague from Sports Illustrated, October 8th, if you want to check that one out as well.

50:23He's got it. Oh, I want to thank. I know it was obviously reviews and star ratings always helpful. And thank you for the support. My thanks to James Jackson for all his hard work on this podcast. Thanks to everybody that's got support. And thank you for listening. We'll see you soon.