The tragic passing of Dan Hicks; Dianna Russini returns

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1:57Welcome to the Sports Media Podcast. I'm your host, Richard Deitch. My producer is James Jackson. This is our usual weekend roundtable. We have three of the regulars. It's the group, of course, from Sports Media Watch, John Lewis, founder and editor, Armand Brody, co-host of their podcast, as well as the producer of that podcast, Derek Futterman, their multimedia specialist, as well as obviously does a lot of long form and has been reporting up a storm when it comes to the podcast. some of the merger front and we'll get a little bit on Skydance later in this podcast. Before we do that, Derek, you informed us before, I mean, obviously John and Armand knew this, so I guess you informed me before the podcast started that you did a little on-site reporting in New York for Amazon's presentation of the Commanders and Giants.

2:45So what was it like to be behind the scenes with the Amazon group? Well, I've got to correct you on a technicality, East Rutherford, New Jersey. Thank you. At Life Stadium. But look, it was it was cool to be on site. Got to thank Amazon and the team for the opportunity. It's part of a bigger piece that will be on Sports Media Watch in the next few weeks. Got to see the pregame postgame show. Rainy day. Fortunately, the weather cleared up. But yeah, I mean, certainly it's always cool to get a behind the scenes look at how a primetime NFL property comes together. And especially with Amazon, which is now five years into the game, they're having a record year with ratings and viewership on the Thursday night front and obviously got another good game in week 10 the commanders uh sealing the victory against the giants an important divisional game in the final minute so cool experience and uh you know got to say hello to al michaels before the game in the booth uh seems to be doing well and yeah so just a great experience and again thanks to amazon for the opportunity was that a in terms of pr was that a tim buckman presentation for you or lana russo who was your pr handler on that the The former.

3:41The former. Okay, there we go. And speaking of Al Michaels, he gave an amazing tribute, I thought, to Dan Hicks. And this will lead our podcast, obviously. So Dan Hicks, a prominent play-by-play voice for NBC Sports. He worked for them for 30 years. If you're a golf fan, you obviously know Dan Hicks was the voice of golf for that network, U.S. Opens, et cetera. I obviously am a very big Olympic junkie. And Dan Hicks was the soundtrack for Olympic swimming. as well as alpine skiing and I believe speed skating as well. Very, very famously, one of the great calls in American sports broadcasting history is his call of Jason Lee Sachs' amazing swim to maintain Michael Phelps' ability to set a world record or I should say set the gold medal record at the Rio Games.

4:36And he and Rowdy Gaines, I think, just revolutionized swim coverage in the United States. Dan Hicks was due to call Notre Dame on today. If you're listening to this on Saturday against Boston College. And according to his wife, died of a who's Hannah Storm, obviously, obviously a well-known broadcaster in her own right, died of an acute illness. He's 64 years old. We don't know what that illness was, but very clearly shocking and sudden because he was supposed to call Notre Dame football this week. So this was not an illness where he had been sick for a long time or anything like that. I talked to a couple of people on NBC Sports.

5:13They were all stunned. And the one thing, and I'll say my thoughts after these guys go, but you have not heard a single person, whether publicly or even behind the scenes, ever say, say anything really bad about Dan Hicks. He really was a great colleague and people really adored him at the network. So our condolences to Rick Cordella and Molly Solomon, who are significant NBC sports executives. They really lost not just a great broadcaster, but what seemed to be a really, really great dude. John, Dan Hicks is not as famous as Al Michaels or Joe Buck. And I think maybe in some ways, maybe underrated a little bit if that's the right word.

5:55But I was struck on social media just how many people sort of offered thoughts yesterday just about like how many things he had done that like really touched them as viewers. What are your thoughts on Dan Hicks and his tragic passing at the age of 64? I wonder if the better word or the better term isn't underrated so much as taken for granted. I think that Dan Hicks was somebody who was always at that level where you were going to get a good broadcast from him, but he was not the person you immediately think of. Um, and as a result of that, he didn't get the kind of accolades that other broadcasters got, despite the fact that if you actually look at his record of achievement, being the voice of Tiger Woods in the 2000s, the Tiger Woods prime, the Michael Phelps prime, that alone, you know, that makes careers, right?

6:49Marv Albert rode the Michael Jordan prime to the prominence that he had in the 1990s. Dan Hicks, Tiger, Michael Phelps. I mean, it doesn't get better than that. And the reality is that it wasn't just Tiger or Michael Phelps. He continued to have that same level of quality throughout his career. I think because golf and NBC doesn't air golf every week like CBS does. So Ants is able to kind of own golf in that way because he's there week in and week out. You only heard Dan Hicks on the major events. Golf Channel 2, if you're a hardcore, right? But I'm talking about, obviously, as you say, if you're part of the mainstream sports landscape, you only heard him on the majors.

7:31You only heard him on the Olympics. And so it was not the same kind of every single day. But look, every time you heard Dan Hicks do a game, you knew you were getting a high quality broadcast. And I will say, I asked Armand this in the taping of our own podcast. I am reasonably sure that this is the first time that a number one national network voice has passed away during their career. Wow. That's, uh, I don't think I would have sort of connected that dot very, it seems like that's, that is just accurate. Armand, let me go to you. You know, John mentioned that, um, you know, he's the soundtrack of Michael Phelps and Tiger, Tiger Woods.

8:09And obviously these are like Mount Rushmore type of athletes. But if you want to take just a very singular notch below, Michaela Schifrin, Lindsey Vonn. Dan Hicks was the voice of some of the greatest American athletes in their disciplines. And that was one of the things that I thought of today. Again, as somebody who's covered many Olympics and is an Olympics junkie, I just can't tell you how many times Dan Hicks was the soundtrack on some of these very, very famous wins by some Hall of Fame caliber American athletes yeah listening to the commanders giants broadcast and to hear al michaels begin to sort of break his voice as he was talking about dan hicks was kind of speaks to the kind of not just broadcaster he was but apparently the kind of the guy he was um i thought a little bit of course after thinking about hannah storm and their three daughters i thought about verne lundquist because to me, Hicks and Lundquist were both these broadcasters who never let you down, but didn't always get the opportunities that they deserved.

9:18But yet they provided these incredible lyrics to some of the most memorable moments in recent sports history. Expect anything different, right that's the great call from hicks when tiger woods on one leg is uh storming against rock immediate to force the uh the playoff in 2008 um he was never fully given the appreciation he deserved but every time nbc needed someone there he was and he was always good he did the wildcard game, the Colts Chiefs crazy 38 to 10 comeback game with Mike Mayock. He, after NBC smartened up a bit and took Jack Connorsworth out of the Notre Dame play-by-play booth because he wasn't ready for it.

10:06It was not the right assignment for him. Who did they put back in the Notre Dame booth? Dan Hicks. And there's not been a complaint about the Notre Dame booth since then. I mean, he never let you down. I can even recall in the late nineties, Greg Gumbel fell ill right before they were to do a segment for the NFL and NBC, and they threw Dan Hicks in there to host the NFL and NBC, and he picked that up and just carried it without a hitch. A truly talented broadcaster, and as Jimmy Roberts said in his tribute, never made it about himself. Let me go to you, Derek. One thing, and I'm glad Armand brought this up, is Notre Dame.

10:45um you know again one of the broadcasters really now tied to notre dame like when i think of notre dame football like obviously i'm older than you derek like i might think of don crikey because like sort of really connected to them for as long as uh as long as that was but you know hicks had that run on notre dame football after tom hammond for whatever it was you know four or five years or something like that he takes a long hiatus and then back in 2024 as armand mentioned And that speaks again to just like crazy versatility is the guys calling Notre Dame football. And then like in the winter, he's calling Alpine skiing.

11:22And then in the summer, he's calling swimming. And again, like I think one of the themes that we're already talking about is just that. He's not as prominent as Joe Buck and, you know, Al Michaels and Jim Nance and stuff like that. But he's another one of those guys. I don't want to link them because their careers are different. But I think in some ways, Dan Hicks, the way I think of Ted Robinson, if you step back and see how many times Ted Robinson was on the call of something huge, you would be stunned. Like just as a sports fan, you're like, oh, wow, that was Ted Robinson. And I think in Dan Hicks is passing now, Derek.

11:57That's one of the things I think we're just going to like note again is like, oh, my God, like that guy was on like 25 calls that I remember as a sports fan. I think John's accurate in saying that some people have taken Dan Hicks for granted. I mean, his versatility, peerless versatility unmatched, and it's going to be tough to replace him. The most important thing at this point is sending our sincere condolences to Hannah Storm, his children and their family, this devastating loss. But when you think about it from a sports media perspective, it's really hard to kind of fathom how NBC is going to navigate this.

12:28I mean, you certainly would have anticipated him being part of coverage at LA 2028. The Notre Dame package, again, due to call the game this weekend. Yeah, it's devastating. And, you know, perhaps it's a little too soon to talk about kind of all these contingencies now that NBC is going to have to figure out. This was, again, really, really just came out of nowhere for a lot of people, it seems. But, yeah, again, the most important thing right now is sending sincere condolences to his loved ones. It's a terrible situation. We echo that. In doing a little research for this podcast, I looked it up.

13:04The New York Times has a wedding notice. January 9th, 1994, Hannah Lynn Storen and John Daniel Hicks getting married in New York. Both were 31 years old. So that's a 32-year marriage. Obviously, Hannah Storen is a massively prominent broadcaster of her own. So we certainly echo what Derek had to say, though, John, I do want to go to you and ask you about like the realities of for someone like Rick Cordell and Molly Solomon is now they do have to think about like what comes next. And so the Notre Dame job will be kind of interesting. And you wonder if they just decide to like use like Noah Eagle and some others who could fit in there.

13:50But they really now, when it comes to the Olympics, I think have some big decisions to make because like swimming is so prominent in terms of viewership. Like that is a very, very important play by play role. And I would also argue so is Alpine skiing, like when it comes to the Winter Olympics, just because the United States always does well there. Again, NBC should be given grace, and I don't think they're going to make these decisions for a long time. But the reason I bring this up, John, is that these are significant now roles to. Well, first, I just want to make note, as far as Hannah goes, let's not forget, she's also recovering from cancer.

14:23Yep. Surgery. So this is really one of the worst possible times. It's never, ever a good time. Something like this could happen. But this is probably the worst possible time that something like this could happen. So just to add my best wishes to her and her children. But beyond that, to the question that you just asked, I don't concern. I don't have much concern about the Olympics because there's a lot of time between now and 28 and then obviously 2030. They have plenty of time to figure that out. And Notre Dame, honestly, will probably not be hard to figure out because it's football and you just hired Jason Benetti.

14:59I suspect that that's probably going to be right. And we should I didn't mean to jump, but I should mention that Jason Benetti. Is he filling in this Saturday? OK. Okay. The, the place where I think Dan Hicks is going to be truly irreplaceable is golf. Yeah. Great point. That, uh, it was already so difficult with Johnny Miller's departure. They've had a revolving door next to Dan Hicks in that booth because they haven't been able to figure out how to replace Johnny Miller. And Dan Hicks has been the anchor. He has been the, not just the host, but he has been really the person keeping that broadcast, keeping the continuity of that broadcast going.

15:39Obviously, they have Mike Tirico who can do that type of a role. I mean, Mike Tirico can do anything. But the fact is that, you know, it'd be like trying to figure out who's going to replace Jim Nance at Augusta. You're not going to be able to replace Jim Nance at Augusta. I don't think, I mean, honestly, one of the things that I thought about in the aftermath of this was when Tim Russert died. And Tim Russert died in the middle of the 2008 campaign. And NBC went with Tom Brokaw initially to finish out the campaign. That might be what Tirico does here. He might be Tom Brokaw. But then after that, they never found anyone that could fill Tim Russell's shoes again.

16:20They tried David Gregory. They tried, obviously, Chuck Todd had that job for a long time. And now I believe it's Kristen Welker. Yeah, thank you. Kristen Welker, who has it. The fact is, though, it's never been the same. And it might not ever be the same for NBC golf. That's well said. Again, I, you know, I recommend there were so many tributes to Dan Hicks in terms of the people who worked with him. You guys mentioned that Al Michaels choked up on the air during Thursday night football. I mean, that's obviously real stuff. I thought Rick Cordella, Molly Solomon, and the rest of NBC sports really sent out thoughtful notes as did Mark Lazarus, who's the head of Versin to obviously work with Dan Hicks for a while.

17:03I'm not the, uh, I'm not someone who watches golf regularly, uh, compared to like your golf diehards, but there are a lot of people in the golf world who sent out like really thoughtful statements in terms of who work with Dan Hicks. I saw Michael Phelps on his Instagram page. Just, you know, talk about that. Michaela Schifrin sent out something which I thought was incredibly thoughtful. Again, I don't think that's someone who's worked with Dan Hicks outside of being an athlete who Dan Hicks prominently called. Um, but that was really thoughtful as well. The golf channel did a really great tribute.

17:31I think that was Rich Lerner, who was the one who made the announcement. So, I mean, just really, really sad news. Dan Hicks passing away at the age of 64. His voice and work will live on long past him. And again, as Derek and others on this podcast have uttered, we send our best to Hannah Storm and her three daughters. You look at Dan Hicks' Instagram feed, it was very, very clear how close he was with his children and how much everybody loved each other. So, a very, very sad thing. And we wanted to make note of that at the top of the podcast. There's not really any kind of great segue here, guys, to go from the Dan Hicks story to Diana Rossini.

18:09So we will just talk about it. Diana Rossini made her return to sports media this past week with a one hour show platformed by BetUS. Am I correct about that? Not BetUSA, right? That's an offshore sports book that I believe is not allowed to operate in the United States. Does that seem like accurate? You guys are all shaking your head on that. Let's double check that. But I believe I'm correct on that, meaning they can't take bets in the U.S. The the show, I don't know if any of you guys watched it or stayed with it, but there was technical difficulties to start. Right. So the show doesn't get up.

18:45Remind me of the Ron DeSantis thing. If you remember that on X when he he sort of made his presidential run and we had to wait a long time for him to to restart that. Um, and so if I'm reading this correctly, the show is kind of going to be like an interview show, like maybe a mix of some takes, occasional reporting. It's hard to figure out with the first show what this will be. All right. So there's a lot of ways to sort of take this in terms of, I mean, you know, very bluntly, like Diana Rossini obviously should work again or, you know, has the right to work again. That's, that's, you know, America or, you know, capitalism and, and, and all that stuff.

19:24There was a lot of talk, and I understand this. Should she have addressed what happened on the first show? And does she owe the audience that? It's an interesting question. I would have liked to have seen that sort of journalistically, but does she owe the audience that? I don't know. I don't know if anybody owes anything to an audience. I guess you owe it to the audience if maybe you're thinking that the audience comes back via transparency. But I've also seen a lot of people who aren't transparent at all in sports media circles, and they get a shitload of people listening to that. Let's start with you, Derek.

19:55I think if we just sort of take this on a base level, the interesting question for me will be, is there an audience for Diana Rossini if she's not breaking stories and being part of that insider Ian Rappaport, Adam Schefter, Tom Pellisaro world? Is there an audience for her if she's just offering opinion and doing interviews? And I have to be honest with you, I'm a little skeptical of how big that audience can be. I mean, listen, a jabroni like myself can get 9 ,000, 10 ,000 people to listen to a podcast episode. So if an idiot like me can do it, you can get audience. But what I'm saying is, Derek, sustainability.

20:34That's my sort of real thought here is that there's so many football content plays that But I do wonder if this is a long term success, if she's not doing what she kind of made her fame on or bones on, which was breaking news. So I do that intro to ask you, you can go wherever you want on this. This story has spiraled out of control and become fodder for a lot of outlets who continue to publish stories on Diana Rossini left and right. The reality of the situation, in my opinion, is that the audience and some members of the audience will be skeptical of her credibility after what has come out regarding her alleged relationship with Mike Vrabel, the New England Patriot Tech coach.

21:19I don't want to make any assumptions on any of that without doing any of my own reporting or background work. And I'm very careful to toe that line. But some people will think that what she's doing impunes her credibility. The fact is that Diana Rossini is working again. There are people who are happy to see her back in sports media. There are people that are not happy to see her back in sports media. There are two sides to this situation. The BetUS TV presentation for her first show, there were a few things that certainly didn't do critics, certainly didn't do her any favors in regards to appealing to critics.

21:52You had the technical difficulties. You had BetUS TV claiming a record-breaking, record-shattering audience without citing real data. And I even thought to myself, how does that make sense? This is the first show, unless you're comparing it to your other shows, which the platform really has not been that prominent outside of this. I mean, some people may be disappointed that she didn't directly head on address the allegations regarding her and Mike Vrabel. I mean, it's not her responsibility to do that. There's no legal mandating. She needs to address it. So I'm not going to address my thoughts on that situation myself, except that the audience may find it skeptical.

22:26And that's that's for individuals to judge. but certainly you know i i think in order for this to be sustainable you have to deliver a product that's on time and of quality every week uh i you know she had interviews in week one talked about the nfl we'll see what happens in the second week but certainly uh if you were looking for an answer uh regarding all the reports with uh with her and mike brable in the situation you didn't really get many in the first week and you may not be getting them coming down the road i'm pretty confident talking into a mic. Hey, I'm doing it right now, but home projects, I second guess everything.

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23:40We're crunching the numbers to bring you sleepers, bust weekly start-sit advice. Whether you're defending a title or desperately avoiding last place, I've got you covered every single weekday. The bar is open. It's Fantasy Football Happy Hour with Matthew Barry, wherever you get your podcasts. I appreciate that take. Armand, I'm going to go to you. I think, again, this just would be my, you know, for full transparency, obviously, Diana Rossini and I work together. I don't really deal with her a lot. A couple times, my interactions with her were professional, but they were not a lot. So I don't really have any great, honestly, I don't have great insight into Diana Rossini because our time at The Athletic, we really didn't work together that much.

24:21It's very much with the NFL. group. Occasionally, I think we would slack a couple of times. Not I think. We did slack a couple of times. And again, professional. That would be the way I would discuss it. I'm sorry, Ketrop. I should note too, back in my previous role, I did a story on Diana Rossini, and it was professional. And it came out, and I'm pretty sure it did well. So that's my history in terms of speaking with her. I've run into her certainly on Radio Row leading up to the Super Bowl a few years ago. But everything that happened since was very shocking. Yeah. Okay. I appreciate that, Derek.

24:59And again, I'll give you a perfect example. I don't have Diana from Rossini's cell phone. So that should give you my relationship. And I have obviously a shitload of cell phones and people in the business. All right, Armand, going to you. The one thing that Derek mentioned sort of on the journalistic part, and I do think this is where I do believe this. I do think if you are trying to sell yourself journalistically, I know Rossini has said, I'm not a journalist now, but this is different. If you're selling yourself journalistically, I mean, if you're selling yourself as a breaking news person, that's where I do think you probably do all the audience something about what went down with Mike Vrabel or at least your explanation of that.

25:33If you're just selling opinion, right, if you're just selling takes, I don't know if you have to give the audience anything on that because then you're more of a personality to me than a journalist. Do you see what I see in terms of that distinction or is that not or is that just as they say in legal terms. Is that a distinction without a difference? I think she will probably go the way of a Peter Schrager, Kay Adams type. I'm going to talk and we'll have a good time and we'll address some storylines, but I'll address them from more of a distance as opposed to the, this is what I'm hearing. I was told by sources.

26:19I think Diana is counting on the years she's put into this, helping her navigate this transition. And I would imagine that she's hoping the audience she built through reporting, she'll be able now to bring that audience with them as she reimagines her career as more of a commentator rather than an insider slash reporter. And if that's the lane, then it makes sense for her to go that way, given there are always going to be question marks from a journalistic standpoint, given it's important, Richard, in my opinion, it's important to read or to remember what the athletic concluded with their investigation.

27:09it their investigation says that she should have disclosed to the athletic the nature of her relationship with mike verbal and she did not do that so unquestionable that is still that's still hanging over us so you can't just sort of if you if you want to be a journalist if you want to be respected as one you can't just skip over that without having to deal with it so if she chooses to shrager k adams type lane then it'll it'll it allows her to sort of get around it but if she wants to be a newsbreaker, a hard news journalist or something close to that, she's going to have to, at some point, in my opinion, address what happened.

27:49Before I get to you, John, I want to just follow up with you, Arman, real quick. It does lead to the question because a lot of these insiders, they're playing a little fast and loose with what I would consider traditional ethical boundaries on some of this stuff. So the real question is, let me play devil's advocate to you. Do you really have to do that? Because like a lot in the insider, I mean, listen, we've seen this with Schefter, you know, Mr. Editor, I don't want to go through all Schefter stuff. But so my point is that like, in a lot of that world, there is some quid pro quo, right? There's some things that in order to do the job correctly, I think you have to get into the ethical gray areas that other sports reporters don't.

28:27By the way, I'm not advocating this. I'm just being honest and transparent as to how it goes. So that would be my one pushback to you is, you know, she already did work in a world where this is not like she's she wasn't she wasn't doing pro publica stuff. Right. She's doing sort of a different kind of thing. That's you, Armand. That's fair. That's fair. And we've had this conversation in a sort of different way, but there's a difference, in my opinion, between a journalist and an insider. I do think there's a difference between what Adam Schefter does and what Katie Strang used to do. Or Katie Strang, that's even better, what Katie Strang has done.

29:07So it's not the same. It's not apples to apples. And maybe I'm just a wishful thinker, right? Maybe I'm saying, you know what? We have so much journalistic integrity that we want to look at these things and address them head on. but even with there being a little bit of a difference between or big difference between journalism and insider work there to me is still value in if you want to be treated and respected as a journalist because there are insiders who will claim to be journalists they'll claim to be reporters well they do i mean the insiders do journalism all the time this is where it gets into like this weird place right yeah but it gets messy though it's very messy because like you said the quid pro quo element of it muddies the waters quite a bit.

29:55So to me, it depends on what length, if you want to be treated with the respect of a journalist, then you need to act like a journalist. If you don't want to be treated with the respect of a journalist, then do your own thing. And when I, you mentioned quid pro quo, I'm talking about stuff like, you know, when agents sort of demand that they are listed in like part of like they brokered this deal or something like that, when it should be the organization that makes the decision as to whether they mention who the agents were, let's say, beyond the deal. John, I want to get to you, and I want to give Jimmy Trina credit for this, who mentioned this to me.

30:26He may have written this in one of his columns or talked about in his podcast. Well, what both Armand and Derek said was really, really interesting when we sort of dissect this whole idea of the K Adams kind of model or something like that, or the personality thing. What Trina brought up was this. What happens if Patriots stories come out? What happens if the Patriots are the most important NFL story this year and how does she address that? And I think Traynor makes a great point because if you want to use the Kay Adams personality model, how does Diana Rossini navigate that? Because let's say she's not even breaking news, but if Mike Vrabel, I don't even know what the thing, I mean, this isn't going to happen, but let's say the Patriots go on a six-game losing streak and they're five and nine and Robert Kraft comes out and says, Mike Vrabel's on thin ice, like something to that effect.

31:15That might be the biggest NFL story that week if you're her what do you i mean how do you how do you navigate that without the elephant in the room being there the elephant in the room is there anyway so power through it the way that she's been doing it the way she did in the first episode i would not expect her to do anything different i think you know look uh even if only she and mike variable knew about it there was an elephant in the room anyway when she was talking about the mike variable and all these different uh different interviews that she did, like the Dan Patrick show or whatever. So I don't think that'll be difficult for her at all.

31:51You know, it is an interesting thing. We talk a lot about the societal changes and shifts. And there was a very, very shameless era of out and out corruption that hasn't necessarily ended yet, but certainly seems to have been mainstreamed, right? This out and out. I'm corrupt. What are you going to do about it? And I wonder if that might start to shift. And if the ground starts to shift where people are like, oh, wait a second, most Americans hate corruption, that might start to trickle down into even non-political spaces. And I bring that up because obviously the only way forward for Diana Rossini is kind of to be shameless.

32:35And, you know, I mean, it takes a certain amount of shamelessness, not necessarily in a pejorative sense, but you have to not be all that capable of shame to be back on the air already, right? And sometimes that's a good thing. Who knows? I'm not speaking one way or the other. I'm just saying you got to be kind of shameless to be back on the air already. And I wonder if the ground shifting back into maybe some level of propriety, some level of, okay, yeah, you may be shameless, but society isn't. Might make that harder. All right, last one, and then we're going to move on to another topic. If you had to guess one year from today, Derek, let's say November 14th, 2027, does Rossini still have this show?

33:19No. John? No. Armand? Nope. That makes four for four. I would agree with that as well. I'm not saying she'd be out of the business, but I don't believe this will be the venue that takes place. All right. Well, I'd say she'll, yeah, I'd say she'll still be in the business year from now, but the medium will change. This is, this is a starting point to relaunch her career is how I see it. We're going to do sky dance at the end, but I'd want to do one quick thing. And I know all you guys follow the WNBA, you in particular, John, Kathy Engelbert's going to have a successor named, I would say, hope, you know, in the next couple of months, you would, you would, you would imagine how important John, Lewis, in your opinion, is that position having, how do I sort of say this, being more media front and center, perhaps than Kathy, meaning like maybe more press conferences, more interviews on her partners and stuff like that.

34:19The one thing that clearly has to happen, I think this is no genius take is whoever gets the job has to have a better communication with the players. That's like sort of job one. But that's one thing I was thinking about just in terms of like, you know, Adam Silver in many ways is a great advocate for the WNBA, does all these interviews and stuff like that front and center. David Stern was like that. I mean, Goodell gets softballs left and right, but he does do stuff. I mean, you know, he's with Mike Greenberg and some of these other softball interviews. So I was just curious, like in terms of like the successor to Kathy Engelbert, what your thought was, John, in terms of how much more media does that position do with whoever gets the gig?

34:59Well, I don't know. I mean, how many commissioners are media savvy? I know you mentioned Adam Silver, but it's not like Rob... I think Gary Bettman's very media savvy. You may not love his tone all the time, but the guy does a million interviews. Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Bettman's certainly learning directly under David Stern, maybe that's what Ann Silver have in common. But I'm thinking about, you know, Rob Mantra's not great with media. And Roger Goodell, he's great with media because the NFL's doing well. And when the NFL was having the issues it was having about a decade ago with Bray Rice, Adam Silver was doing, I mean, excuse me, Roger Goodell was doing so poorly with media that people wanted him to resign.

35:34So I don't necessarily know how important that is. Obviously, you need to have a leader who connects more with the players. That's priority number one. I've got a crazy, crazy suggestion, you know, crazy, crazy. Good. Send it out. Why not bring back Val Ackerman? You know, I know he retired. Yeah. I mean, I don't think it's a crazy suggestion, but hasn't she said that she's retired from corporate life? Yeah, she said so. But, you know, I mean, maybe back up the Brinks truck. People come out of retirement all the time. But I don't think the WNBA ever had better leadership than when Val Ackerman was there at the very beginning.

36:09And she has exactly what you want. She's a basketball executive. He didn't come in from Deloitte. He didn't come in from the Girl Scouts. He didn't come in from Coca-Cola. She's a basketball executive. She knows the game. She's a sports executive. Uh, and, uh, I think that also helps in terms of connecting with players. I think it helps a lot because I don't get the sense that Kathy Engelbert viewed the players any differently than any corporate executive would view their employees, but sports is just different. If it were me and they would not do this because I think they see her as too young and needing more seasoning.

36:42I would choose Jess Smith, the Valkyries president who's had incredible success, both, um, with that organization on the court, as well as obviously off the court, their valuations are crazy. That's who I would pick. I think they will pick. I actually don't know who they're going to pick, so I don't even want to sort of guess. I've seen some of the candidates and some player candidates like Swin Cash and stuff like that. I'm going to predict they go more on the, like they'll go for like someone who's in the business of sports as opposed to a former player, but we'll see. Because you don't know, you want to speak to the players, but you don't want the players to be, you know, too much in charge.

37:19I mean, that sounds a little bit off. No, I know what you're saying, but there is, there like there is the the the problem with taking a former player is and it's a problem for the former player is you you just psychologically you don't want to automatically side with your fellow players and that somehow would impact your decision making because you also then don't want to use that to not side with the players if that makes sense right yeah yeah it could go either way right it could end up i mean anytime you have any circumstance where you're too close that's not and And I think maybe that's why someone like an Ackerman blends it, right?

37:52You don't want someone who's too corporate, and you don't want someone who's too close to the players. It's got to be kind of that middle ground because you do need – I mean, you're the mediator between the owners and the players. Yeah, listen, Val Ackerman did an amazing job during her two decades as WNBA commissioner. I don't think it was commissioner at the time. It was like president. He was the president. It was only for like the first six years. Remember, he was in the Big East for most of the past time. Okay, let's go to you, Derek. Before we tape this, Skydance held – what did Skydance hold?

38:24Did they hold a – Yeah, Skydance had quarterly earnings earlier. Quarterly earnings, okay, in which the execs there spoke about sports properties. What can you tell us about that? Yeah, David Ellison, who obviously runs Skydance Corporation, now a merged company with Paramount and Warner Brothers Discovery, basically came out and said that the company values sports, but it's going to remain disciplined. And this makes sense. The company has a net debt load of$87 billion after the merger. And what the company seems to have communicated is that the goal is to pay that down quickly. There's been talk about the leveraging and getting to a better multiple in a few years regarding all that.

39:06But it's going to be remaining disciplined with current sports rights. I think the exact quote was that they're going to remain a significant player, leader in the space. But you have to think with this reported change of control provision that the National Football League holds. I know Jerry Cardinal came out and said at a Blue America conference last month that it would be better to negotiate with the NFL later. And based on a new report from Alex Sherman of CNBC this morning, that seems to be the case. He says Skydance is dead set on renewing NFL rights, talks that will likely take place in 2028 ahead of the 29 opt out.

39:39But also part of that report in the main the main focus was the National Hockey League and Disney and Skydance both seem to reportedly have interest in renewing. There have been early talks is what Sherman says between the two sides and that the league is looking for an increase on the rights fee between 50 and 100 percent on its current deal. So the National Hockey League, you have to imagine right now, Skydance is paying down its debt. That could be one of the properties that is expendable at this point. If you need to renew the National Football League, I don't think the company is going to move on from March Madness.

40:10You have college sports, you have Major League Baseball, NASCAR, the Masters, just a ton of properties. I could see the National Hockey League being expendable. But I think what could fuel, and this is just my own perspective, my own opinion, what could fuel such a rights fee increase is changing the way in which the playoffs are distributed, making sure that the Stanley Cup final is on broadcast every year and getting the first round of the playoffs off the regional sports networks. draft kings an official partner of the nba is now available in all 50 states so wherever you live follow your favorite nba stars get excited about the biggest matchups and lock in on those buzzer beating moments and with draft kings it's all in one app download the draft king sports app and use code 2400 new draft kings customers can spend five and get 200 in total bonuses paid within 21 days New DraftKings customers can spend five and get 200 in total bonuses paid within 21 days.

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42:26So, John, let me ask you this. like how in from Europe and then I want you Armand to comment on this as well let's just take the NHL like how important you think that is for TNT if we're assuming TNT's programming sort of still exists within the Skydance universe like how I'm trying like I don't think if we think of CBS sports although I don't really even know if I should think of it like that but I don't think like David Burson can't be thinking like we need the NHL to bolt to bolster up CBS Sports. They already have enough premium properties, but the thought process is going to be like, how important is it to TNT, right, in terms of inventory?

43:02TNT has to have the NHL. They don't have anything else. Ben Huddleston, who writes for the Society, put up this comparison between last year's Thanksgiving week TNT programming and this year's. Last year, they had the players' era in college basketball. And so every day of Thanksgiving week, they had nothing but basketball games. Well, they lost the players here to ESPN. And now this year, they've got nothing but movies, except for a couple of NHL games, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, right? You can plug in, well, not Thursday, they don't plan on Thanksgiving, but you get the idea. You can plug in the NHL into those spots where you don't have anything else.

43:37And the NHL is an inventory play. It's not really in the regular season or ratings play. You're not going to look at regular season NHL ratings and be impressed, but it's inventory. They don't have the NBA anymore, but they can still put a hockey game on a Thursday night or Tuesday night. Right. And that ability, I think they've got maybe 80 regular season games per year. That's a lot of time to fill. What else would they be airing? Right. I don't even think they are law and order anymore over there. So they need as much inventory as they can possibly get. And I'll tell you something else. I can't even think of what they'd replace it with.

44:11They have some college basketball, but the college basketball games they have are not at the level of quality of the hockey games that they have. And let me go ahead to that point really quickly with one more thing. There was a settlement with Rob Bonta, the attorney general of California that came out. And something that's very important to note is that the basic cable distribution agreements for the Paramount owned networks and the Warner Brothers Discovery owned networks need to be negotiated separately for the first five years of this merged company. So the fact is that you're not going to just be able to lump sports on one and have it benefit the other.

44:45These are separate agreements for the first five years. amran let me go to you like the the cbs is gonna see i gotta you start using skydance more skydance has some interesting decision making because they have to have the nfl obviously so as john mentioned all your money is sort of going to go into that boat but then like i do think strategically they have to think like sort of okay what what is like must have for us and what's our like sports identity versus what's not so immediately just in terms of like thinking about them you know nfl March Madness. I think they're really all in on soccer.

45:17So that's going to be there. But to me, and I should know when it ends, maybe John or Derek or you know, but the French Open to me makes absolutely no sense for Skydance. Why would you continue to keep that? It should sort of float out there. And then a Netflix or a Prime Video will probably jump on that because it's a glamour kind of property and they can pay for it. So Armand, when you're thinking about whatever the new Skydance is, what do you think about in terms of what their sports identity will be? I think the Roland Garros deal runs through 2034. Oh, wow. So they have it for much longer than I knew.

45:51Okay. Yeah, they've got it for a while. I think, and this is a conversation we've had in different ways and on different platforms. You have to pick, you have to choose, you have to say what is most important to us because you can't have it all, especially post-merger. So NFL, obviously, yes. March Madness, yes. The NHL piece to me is interesting because as important as I think the NHL is to TNT sports, the NHL, it feels more at home on ESPN and ABC. It's a strange thing. TNT covers the NHL better, but the NHL fits better on ESPN and ABC, in my opinion. And I do believe that the Stanley Cup final needs a broadcast home every year and not every other year.

46:48So I think the only really guarantees are the things we've already mentioned, like the must haves, your NHL, your NFL, your March Madness, that tier of event. And then you have to have some hard conversations about some of the other pieces. Let's finish up with this real quick. I didn't tell you guys I was going to talk about this, but it's an easy one for you. And that's just college game day continuing with some really big, strong viewership. I'll start with you, John Lewis. Like, you know, obviously we all see the releases. I talked to the ESPN PR people. they really do have a good story this year to tell.

47:20There are just a lot of these, you know, McAfee's obviously got a ridiculous amount of attention, both good and bad. But the reality is like that show is rocking. If you're just going to base it on viewership for sure, like they're putting up massive numbers, particularly in the final hour. And like the last week, I forget where both Big Noon and ESPN was, but like they rolled like Fox by like 200 plus percent. Like it's like that. I think you had mentioned this on this podcast, John, I'm like, that was like a competition for a while. It's like not anymore, at least at the moment. And so ESPN really has a good story to, you know, amid all of the craziness that sort of seems to happen every week in terms of their on-air personalities, they have a great story to tell, don't they, when it comes to College Game Day?

48:05No question. I mean, look, if everyone just kind of calms down and you don't, after doing an event in Utah, start pretending like the fans there posed a lethal threat to you, as long as you don't do that kind of stuff, I mean, then, yeah, there's nothing but good stuff here for Game Day. Everything, every negative thing that Game Day is dealing with is entirely self-inflicted. Their approval ratings could easily be over 50, over 60 % if they could get out of their own way. I wonder who else would be like that. But look, the fact of the matter is, when it comes down to College Game Day, You're talking about a show that is as dominant right now in its space.

48:46Yep. Any studio show, maybe with the possible exception of Fox NFL Sunday, has ever been. I think Fox NFL Sunday for a good while there was really, really dominant relative to the NFL today. So there's nothing that they need to change. But, you know, if you don't get out of your own way, the good times can end pretty quickly as well. John, I have a question to ask you off that. I saw 4%, maybe I believe it's up year over year, recent number on college game day. How much do you associate that to the Nielsen changes? Good question. It's impossible to tell right now because as far as year over year, if you want to compare to two years ago, then yeah, I attribute a lot.

49:30If they're up 15, 16 % from two years ago, I attribute most of that to the Nielsen changes. Year over year, kind of hard to tell. Everything is kind of up maybe 1-2%. The NFL right now is up 2%. I don't know if, obviously we all saw the concerns that Paul Ballou voiced prior to the season. Is the NFL taking a hit from that? Did Nielsen make necessary changes to kind of undo some of maybe the extra lift that sports got last year? uh i don't it's impossible for me to attribute uh any amount of it to um to any of that i will simply say do i think this is the most watched season of college game day probably isn't but then again yeah but i would say this but within but within the today's universe of the metrics we have it's a great season regardless like i agree with you like if you could if you could actually measure it honestly i think there's probably been years where more people have watched But within the universe we all currently exist and play in, they've had a great year.

50:29And I was going to add this. It is important to know they're sustaining this audience over three hours now. That's a great point. Their seasons where they were hitting those highs in the 2000s was a two-hour show. Yeah, great, great point. I'll end on just a couple of things that I saw that Mike Mulvihill, who's Fox's vice president of strategy and analytics throughout, that I just found pretty interesting. According to him, the fastest growing NFL team in local ratings this year is the Rams, who are up 86 % locally in their market. The Raiders are second and 34. In terms of top-rated markets, the Bills and Chiefs are the two top-rated NFL markets, both rolling against each other.

51:10No surprise there. Buffalo is an incredible television market. And since the Chiefs have been great, the Chiefs games locally do amazing. Also, Mulvihill mentioned that the Bears are up 16 % in terms of the real big cities. That's a team to watch, in my opinion. They're an exciting team. They're in a massive market, obviously, in Chicago. And Caleb Williams is really great, just fun to watch. That's a team to watch heading forward if you're going to try to figure out, okay, who might be the next television team? Because we always think of the Cowboys, the Chiefs. There's been the Ravens for a little bit, the Eagles.

51:43The Bears would be my team if you were asking me to pick a future in terms of what could be a big-time viewership team, that would be the one. All right, that's all I got for you, fellas. You got anything else or any promotions you guys want to throw out there, and then we'll get out of here. We've got the great sports media consultants, John Kozer and Ed Desser on our next episode. Love it. And we also spoke to Cordell Stewart. You might have known about the documentary that he has coming out. So we'll have that out sometime soon. And, of course, we had Bomani Jones on recently, And we did finally publish our Evan Washburn conversation last week.

52:17So that was a good one. Had a lot of interesting talk about some of the mechanics in the industry. I like that. Kozner and Duster are excellent. You could really just ask them anything on any kind of rights deals. And they really have great knowledge. And they were on this podcast as well promoting their book. So we absolutely wish the best for them. All right. Obviously, my thanks to John Lewis, Armand Brody, and Derek Futterman for coming on fairly regularly on this podcast. Please follow them on all there. all their various platforms. Fellas, stay here as I roll us out of here. If you like these conversations, head to the archives.

52:50Before these three gentlemen, Jason Hare was on to talk about, this is more of a vanity play for me, SCTV, the greatest show you've never heard of. Great documentary directed by him. He is, of course, also the director of The Last Dance and the Novak Djokovic documentary that came out. Both obviously were excellent. John Lewis was on this podcast on our previous roundtable with Chad Finn and Austin Karp. We went pretty deep in NFL viewership on that. And we also talked about the WNBA finals and how they kind of escaped the mess because they got that game seven, which was huge for them. I'm trying to think what else.

53:25Obviously, I've done a million things on Troy Aikman, including with these guys and Joe Buck. We will get back to that. But just for people who are really sports media nerds, keep December 1st in mind because that is ESPN's Super Bowl Media Day in New York. I assume Derek will be there probably for that or somebody will. I will. Okay, you will. Thank you, Derek. Because ESPN is going to have to, like, I would assume Troy and Joe are there in person or they'll be on video. But, like, the elephant in the room has to get addressed there. You got a lot of reporters there. I mean, you know, I don't know how many times you get asked about ESPN's alternative broadcast for the Super Bowl.

54:02The Joe Buck, Troy Aikman questions are coming and coming fast. Derek, I expect at least one from you. So that'll be fascinating because you will get a lot of news on December 1st. Like they have to address it. My guess is would be, hey, you know, listen, you know, brothers fight and we're going to be able, we'll be okay for the next two months. But massive, massive story that crossed over. So there's your next big date, I think, for that story. And again, head to the archives. We have certainly talked a lot about that. Want to thank my guests, of course. Want to thank James Jackson for all his hard work on this podcast.

54:37Most of all, thank you for listening. We will see you soon on the Sports Media Podcast.

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