AI Taxes, Dell Shares, & A Rocket Explosion 5/29/26

9:53Rep. Greg Casar:I don't have a problem with it. It was his idea. And I also think, you know, you get a.

9:58Joaquin Duato:Brad's idea. Right.

9:59Rep. Greg Casar:Brad. But, you know, it's under the Trump presidency. I don't. Would you want Gerstner accounts? It's not going to be Gerstner accounts. No. Brad accounts.

10:06Joaquin Duato:It's just, you know, call them the American accounts or something like that.

10:09Rep. Greg Casar:Well, it was originally invested in America. It might be on the$250 bill. By the way, I mean, I give Brad an enormous amount of credit. But you could, you know, Bill Ackman originally had this called Birthright Accounts. This was five, ten years ago. Right. This idea. It's a Trump-Kennedy sense. So this is going to happen.

10:25Joaquin Duato:If you have a problem with that, it's not going to help if that's something you think about a lot. Marketing makes it complicated from some Americans' perspectives who get mad about this stuff. So I'm not saying I get mad about it, but I do think it creates a marketing issue.

10:38Rep. Greg Casar:We've never seen anything like what the word Trump means to some Americans. And, you know, that's probably not going to change either. But Michael Dell, I think it's great that he did it. And then I think it has nothing to do with a$9 billion five-year deal, which is not why the stock is up. It's not up on a billion dollars a year. It's up on the idea that, look, there are all of these companies that are the infrastructure that it takes to build. And it's up on the results from yesterday and the guidance. Right. Some dramatic video of a Blue Origin rocket exploding during a test on a launch pad last night.

11:12Rep. Greg Casar:Let's show you what happened. It was an unbelievable image. Jeff Bezos' company saying its New Glenn rocket exploded during an engine firing test conducted ahead of a satellite launch plan for next week. It erupted into a huge fireball. There you can see it right there. It lit up skies over Cape Canaveral and rattled nearby homes. No injuries reported that New Glenn rocket was grounded last month after it left a satellite in the wrong orbit due to engine failure. Blue Origin intending to use the New Glenn rocket to launch landers to the moon for NASA. In a statement on X, Bezos said all personnel are accounted for and safe.

11:47Rep. Greg Casar:It's too early to know the root cause, but we're already working to find it. Very rough day, but we'll rebuild whatever needs rebuilding and get back to flying. It is worth it. One of the things just to think about when When you're on the location, it's not just that there was an engine failure. It effectively destroyed a lot of what is effectively the launch pad itself. And so that's going to take a while just to rebuild. They have, by the way, a number of engines and rock. I mean, they're building these things regularly. So that's lesser of the issue. The issue is actually just how quickly can you get back to being able to test new flights from that location.

12:32Rep. Greg Casar:And that is, of course, where they launched those rockets from.

12:36Joaquin Duato:The water tower standing next to it. I'm not sure what the water tower was.

12:40Rep. Greg Casar:I didn't know the rocket was called it. Good name for a rocket, obviously. Glenn, yeah.

12:45Joaquin Duato:For me. Yeah.

12:45Rep. Greg Casar:Ohio native, right?

12:47Joaquin Duato:John Glenn. Yeah. Andrew, when you were speaking with Bezos, it's only been, what, a week and a half or so since you did. when you were speaking with him, he told you at one point, I've been studying rockets since I'm fascinated by that since the time I was five, I know this better than I know e-commerce, which he probably does, but it just goes to show that rocket science is harder than e-commerce and probably just about anything else with the exception of maybe brain surgery.

13:14Rep. Greg Casar:It is a very difficult business. It is a very difficult business. You know, the one thing I'd say about all these rockets, though, which is so interesting, and I think we saw this early on with SpaceX too, is when you're launching these new rockets, they think of it in a way that's slightly different than I think we all think of these things, which is, I look at that as a human and go, oh, that looks like a big failure. That looks terrible. They think of this as like an iterative process where they're learning. It's like a very different sort of mental model for how these things work. Right. You would think.

13:49Rep. Greg Casar:That's one way, you know, the half full way of looking at it. I mean, I think we saw this happen over the years with so many different rockets. Remember Elon Musk? One failure away was one. I love it when you're trying to talk and they're screaming. It was one failure away from everything collapsing. Right, Elon Musk?

14:10Joaquin Duato:Interesting timing, too, though, with SpaceX looking like it has a huge advantage as that IPO.

14:16Rep. Greg Casar:Oh, well, they do. Look, I don't think that Jeff would tell you. They are, in this particular moment, advantaged because of the Falcon 9. Interestingly, it is New Glenn, though, that is the big hope for them to go up against Starship and everything else, which still has its own way to go on the other end. So, we'll see. Tees will be next.

14:41Joaquin Duato:Coming up on Squawk Pod, the nation's biggest meeting of cancer and oncology specialists kicks off this weekend. we have an exclusive discussion with the CEO of Johnson & Johnson on the search for cures, the race to innovate, and how America's pharmaceutical brands work with the government. A functional, strong FDA is foundational for a company like us, and it's foundational for the overall innovation ecosystem in the U.S. So it's very important for us to have a strong regulatory agency. We'll be right back.

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16:08Rep. Greg Casar:These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. This episode is brought to you by Schwab Market Update, an original podcast from Charles Schwab. Join host Keith Lansford for this information-packed daily market preview delivered in 10 minutes or less, including projected stock updates, monetary policy decisions, and key results and statistics that may impact your trading. Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com slash market update podcast or find Schwab Market Update wherever you get your podcasts.

16:47Joaquin Duato:This is Squawk Pod.

16:49Rep. Greg Casar:Becky's mic in three, two, one, Q.

16:53Joaquin Duato:You're watching Squawk Box right here on CNBC. I'm Becky Quick along with Joe Kernan and Andrew Ross Sorkin. The American Society of Clinical Oncology's annual meeting begins today in Chicago. That event brings together doctors, researchers, and drug makers to share the latest advances in cancer treatment. Joining us right now ahead of all of that is Johnson & Johnson CEO Joaquin Duada. Also with us on set is CNBC Health and Pharma reporter Angelica Peebles. And welcome to both of you. Joaquin, let's talk a little bit about cancer because this is a very important topic for your company. You all have, I think, cancer drug sales in 2025 of$25 billion.

17:34Joaquin Duato:You've said that by 2030, it's your ambition to become the world's leading oncology company. So what's the most exciting thing you can tell us about what you're going to announce this weekend? Thank you. So we are going to be going to ASCO, and we are presenting practice-changing studies with data that can reshape the standard of care. So improving how cancer patients are treated. As a matter of fact, we are opening the ASCO plenary session with a study in prostate cancer, which has been an area that has not changed much in the standard of care for decades. And we are presenting data that can mean and step forward in how we treat patients there.

18:13Joaquin Duato:You are right. This is a sign of where Johnson & Johnson is going. We have the bold ambition to become the number one company in oncology by 2030. And this is a deliberate intent. What we want to do, Becky, is to be able to work in an area like oncology in which we can help lots of patients and family in where there's still real medical needs. So that's where Johnson & Johnson is going. Our goal is to be able to eliminate cancer. And we are putting all the resources, all our portfolio and our research to get closer to that goal. What's the change in the standard of care for prostate cancer that you're going to be talking about?

18:51Joaquin Duato:So we are presenting data in an area which is localized high-risk prostate cancer. During many years, the standard of care has been surgery, but unfortunately, some of the patients have recurred after surgery. So what we are doing now is treating patients before and after surgery with our medication earlier, and we have signals that this is going to be something that could benefit patients in reducing recurrence.

19:20Rep. Greg Casar:And Joaquin, I know we talked about that multiple myeloma is not really the main topic of this ASCO, but, you know, that drug that you have, Carvicti, has been so successful, but you do have competition coming later this year from a Neatocell, and then you also have Lilly going out and buying that In vivo Car T company. So where do you see the landscape for multiple myeloma, and do you feel like you need to do more there to stay at the lead?

19:41Joaquin Duato:Our goal is to be able to cure multiple myeloma. So as a company, we are absolutely dedicated to be able to find a cure for multiple myeloma. In this Congress, we are presenting data, bringing our therapies into earlier lines. So we are bringing our bispecific antibodies, our cell therapy into earlier lines, and that clearly creates better outcomes for patients. And that is the trend. The trend is to be able to bring precise therapies into earlier lines to have better, more durable responses. Our aim is to have one Johnson & Johnson regimen for every patient in multiple myeloma. All disease subtypes, all stages of the disease from frontline to relapse, and we are not going to stop there.

20:25Joaquin Duato:We have multiple modalities, and we will continue to investigate different modalities in order to be at the forefront. We will remain to be leaders in multiple myeloma. We are not going to stop until we find a cure.

20:37Rep. Greg Casar:And really quick on Carvicti, you actually got one of those commissioner priority review vouchers that former commissioner Marty McCary set up. So what's the status of that now that he's no longer at the agency?

20:48Joaquin Duato:So what we had was a priority review voucher in a combination of our biospecific antibody, Tegvili, which is targeting BCMA2, and our backbone therapy, Darcelex, showing very, very good results in second-line patients. It was, for the first time, showing significant improvement and seen improvement in outcomes in second-line patients early on with this combination of our biospecific antibody and that selects our backbone therapy. So that was given by the FDA an unsolicited review voucher. And today is an approved combination that is already benefiting many patients that may not be able to access cell therapy in a hospital.

21:29Rep. Greg Casar:And with all the changes at the FDA, you know, what have you seen in terms of the actual review staff? You know, first of all, at the leadership level, how has that changed anything in your interactions? and also the people who are actually doing the reviews? Has there been turnover?

21:44Joaquin Duato:Thank you. Look, a functional, a strong FDA is foundational for a company like us and is foundational for the overall innovation ecosystem in the U.S. So it's very important for us to have a strong regulatory agency. Beyond the leadership changes, what I can tell you, and this is to the credit of the FDA professionals, is that functionally we have not seen any delays or any interruptions with the FDA. We have seen the FDA working very well with us. And again, it's to the credit of the FDA professionals that are going the extra mile for patients here. Joaquin, I've been told that in oncology in particular, that the staff that have left, the long-term staff that have left, have potentially set them back a decade when it comes to cancer research.

22:26Joaquin Duato:You haven't seen any of that? I have not seen that. So, I mean, when it comes to our reviews, they have all gone on time. As a matter of fact, we are also presenting at ASCO data with our medicine ribobab in head and neck cancer. And the FDA gave us very promptly a breakthrough designation, and we are working very diligently with them. So I have seen a functional FDA, which is working well with us. That's good to hear. Bariatric surgery is an area that your med tech division is largely involved in. You manufacture a lot of the staples and other things that go into that. How has the GLP-1 business impacted that?

23:01Joaquin Duato:and what do you think the longer-term implications are? When I talk to bariatric surgeons, when I talk to specialists in obesity, they tell me that they see bariatric surgery for people that are more than the obese to be well combined with GLP-1s. So I think what they are working towards is to see how they combine GLP-1s with bariatric surgery in these special populations that are going to require. So down the road, I see bariatric surgery continue to stay in combination with the GLP-1s. What's happening right now on the ground just in terms of disruption to that. I would say that now there is a significant growth of the GLP-1s and that has created some decrease in the procedures in bariatric surgery.

23:38Joaquin Duato:But eventually, as we understand better how to use both things, we think that this will continue to be normalized. Yeah, and GLP-1s, we're also anticipating that there's going to be a study that shows that these GLP-1s can really impact cancer growth as well, the metastasizing and spread of cancer. Have you looked into that at all? When your focus is cancer, what do you think from that perspective? Look, everything that is going to help in cancer is welcome. Our goal is ultimately eliminate cancer. And if GLP-1s have a role in cancer, that's fantastic. And it's something that should be pursued and investigated.

24:13Joaquin Duato:Well, Ken, if you're not number one by the time you would like to be, who will be?

24:18Rep. Greg Casar:Who is in the lead right now? Who is doing great with cancer? because Merck obviously has some great things happening.

24:28Joaquin Duato:Yeah, our ambition is to be number one.

24:30Rep. Greg Casar:Okay, who's on the board? Who's your target?

24:33Joaquin Duato:You want everyone to do well. You just want to do better. There are multiple companies that are doing well. And look, I mean, we all know the names of the companies that are working there. We do. Tell me. And there's multiple areas in cancer. I mean, we are focused in certain areas. Hematology, multiple myeloma, acute myeloma leukemia, Yeah. Solid tumors, lung cancer, bladder cancer, prostate cancer, head and neck. But there are other cancers that still need a solution in which we have not found things that are going to give patients more years of life, like pancreatic cancer. So I welcome more companies to be involved in cancer.

25:09Joaquin Duato:I think it's an area of a medical need. We all have been touched by cancers, and I welcome more companies collaborating, working together to eliminate cancer.

25:17Rep. Greg Casar:I just wonder what, I guess that's going to be a combination of these advances made in immunology. But also what's so exciting about the GLP-1 is if every cancer tumor was benign, it wouldn't matter. It's just the, you know, when it metastasizes and that's, take myeloma or melanoma. Think about that. If all it was was a freckle, it would never end up in your lungs and your brain and your bone.

25:45Joaquin Duato:You are completely right there. I mean, treating earlier and be able to diagnose earlier is the key to be able to address cancer and to find a cure. I mean, the tendency in cancer is to identify the cancer earlier and bring the best treatments in the front. Before it breaks out. Yeah, stage two, stage three, stage four. Absolutely. That's when you have the higher chances of creating durable responses. And that's what we are trying to do. Bring the best treatments into the front line. As we are doing with this study that we're presenting, they are bringing our biospecific antibody and Darsalix into second line in multiple myeloma.

26:16Joaquin Duato:Bring the best treatments into LDR line. I asked Joe what happened last time it was on.

26:20Rep. Greg Casar:I mean, you were at Johnson & Johnson. I can look at it and go on all the way back to 2020. Kind of the same price. And then something happened in the last year or so. Because now you're a half a trillion dollar company. there it is. We go back a little bit further. What do you think? Was it when you came on?

26:37Joaquin Duato:Is that what you're going to tell me? Look, it's everybody's work at Johnson & Johnson. We have 140 ,000 employees and truly it's everybody's work. But what you're seeing now is that we are at the beginning of a new cycle of growth for Johnson & Johnson. We had a great 2025. We're saying that 2026 is going to be better that 2025 in 2026 will become a$100 billion plus company. And we have guided 6.1 % growth But we are going further. We're saying that 27 will be better than 26. And we have double-digit growth, visibility to double-digit growth by the end of the decade. And that's remarkable for a company our size.

27:14Joaquin Duato:And that's based on the fact that we have the strongest portfolio and pipeline in our company history. And that's what investors are recognizing. So I think we're just at the beginning of a cycle of growth for Johnson & Johnson. That you may not be facing at this point. We are working through that, as you know. We are litigating every single case and we are winning. We have a track record of 16 out of 17 cases. And just Wednesday, we just won a case in Oklahoma. So we are dealing with that and we are standing for what we think is right.

27:45Rep. Greg Casar:Really quick, I want to go back to Washington. You were one of the about a dozen companies that made this most favored nations deal with the White House, basically saying that you will charge similar prices for drugs in the U.S. as other countries. So what are you doing differently as a result of that agreement, and especially in areas like cancer where there tend to be discrepancies or markets that get drugs and others that don't? I mean, what more do you have to do to normalize those prices?

28:09Joaquin Duato:Thank you. So our goal, together with the government, is to be able to make medicines more accessible and affordable for Americans. And hence why we signed these deals with the government. are these deals the best way of going about it? In our opinion, there are better ways. We should focus on the middleman. We should also focus on certain programs like 340B that are not used as intended. Now, as far as prices outside of the US, we agree with the government that we need to work in closing the gap between US prices and European prices and anything that we can do in order to be able to do that and in order to have the support of the US government to have better recognition for our innovation outside of the U.S.

28:52Joaquin Duato:is welcome. So I realize that this is going to create some tensions, but it's positive in order to get American innovation recognized outside of the U.S.

29:01Rep. Greg Casar:So are there actually markets then where you're not going to launch drugs like Icotide, for example?

29:06Joaquin Duato:There's always been a delay between the U.S. and the rest of the markets in launching the products. I don't think that's going to change, and we are going to be working through that. But the fact that Americans have earlier access to innovation matters. I was reading cancer death rates comparing the U.S. with Europe, and the U.S. has a lower cancer death rate, and the decrease in the cancer death rate is faster. So that's because in the U.S. we get innovation, we get therapies at least two or three years earlier than we get in certain European markets. So our goal is to be able to bring our medicines to everybody.

29:41Joaquin Duato:But at the same time, we need to be able to have the appropriate recognition for our innovation and close the gap that is not rational, that exists between the U.S. and European countries.

29:52Rep. Greg Casar:And just longer term, you know, I talk to people in Washington who say that maybe the industry didn't do itself a favor here by going out and negotiating these deals. Because then, you know, say the next administration, they actually go and they try to codify it. They do other things. So do you feel like it was, do you think that was the right strategy to go out and say, we agree to these price deals?

30:12Joaquin Duato:Time will tell. But I tell you, throughout my career, there's always been a tension between innovation and affordability. I believe that we are now in a golden era of pharmaceutical innovation. And to the extent we are able to address some of the problems that exist there, like curing cancer, addressing dementia, or addressing cardiovascular disease, I think we are going to be in a good place because the tension between innovation and affordability will always exist. Joaquin, thank you very much for joining us this morning. Angelica, thank you. Coming up on Squawk Pod, Representative Greg Kassar, chair of the House Progressive Caucus, wants to tax AI companies to slow down layoffs and start a depression-style federal jobs program.

30:56Rep. Greg Casar:We can lead the world as America by developing good uses of AI, but then also having protections for workers. That's next.

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32:46Joaquin Duato:Welcome back to Squawk Pod from CNBC. The fast adoption of artificial intelligence promises to make life more efficient. Are technologies more powerful? But what about the workplace? Corporate leaders have warned that so much advanced tech could mean the need for fewer humans on the job. So lawmakers are stepping in and sounding the alarm, calling for a tax on the AI companies to stave off an economic catastrophe. Joe Kernan takes things from here.

33:15Rep. Greg Casar:Congressman Greg Cazar is calling for a tax on AI companies. He's the chairman of the Congressional Progressive Caucus. He joins us now. Congressman, it's good to see you. And we grapple with this question all the time. And I'm reading in your op-ed what you said. It could be like similar to the Great Depression in terms of job losses. And it's coming. And we don't really seem to be prepared for the possible consequences. When I think about it, if it's that productive for every company, it's got to include not using humans for certain things. So I don't see how you're going to be wrong on this.

33:55Rep. Greg Casar:But what is your idea of how to maybe make that less harmful to workers? We're in the midst of what's likely the greatest technological transformation of any of our lifetimes. and we need a plan to make sure that we don't wind up in a dystopic future with mass levels of unemployment, but just a few people who own AI making huge amounts of money while millions of people are without work. And so my plan is a first step, a tax on AI that would fund a jobs program so the unemployment rate does not rise. And AI companies already measure the amount of AI that's being used through something called tokens, which is basically just a measurement of how much compute they use.

34:46Rep. Greg Casar:And so we would have a modest tax on tokens, which people might know as a token tax, and use that revenue to make sure that there are lots of jobs that are worth doing, worth for Americans to do, so that the AI revolution here benefits everyone, not just a small number of people. I guess we have to decide, you know, we're plunging headlong into this. We have to decide whether AI is going to be that transformative to humans that we pursue it, breakneck pace. Because if you tax something, Congressman, you know when you tax something, you get less of it. So this will slow down, probably, the adoption and the development of AI.

35:31Rep. Greg Casar:And, you know, we know who will win if we do that. And that's somebody else like China. So if we decide we definitely want it and it's a good thing, maybe there's other ways of trying to deal with some of the downside that you're talking about other than taxes. I think we can all agree that we need rapid development of the good uses of AI. That's why the legislation I'm beginning to draft should include exemptions for things like medical research. But I think we can lead the world as America by developing good uses of AI, but then also having protections for workers, also not deciding that we need a huge unemployment rate in order to develop AI rapidly.

36:15Rep. Greg Casar:I think we should be able to lead the world by doing both, having good uses of AI be rapidly developed while having a thoughtful program like this one to make sure that Americans stay at work.

36:28Joaquin Duato:Xi Jinping in China reportedly, the Wall Street Journal was reporting yesterday, has told Chinese companies, the Chinese government has, on his concerns that they shouldn't be laying off anyone. Do you think that's the right way for America to do it as well?

36:43Rep. Greg Casar:The problem we face right now in the United States is that the government is doing nothing on AI. The government is doing nothing to stop AI from taking your jobs. The government is doing nothing to stop AI from exploiting your kid, is doing nothing to stop AI from giving advice to a terrorist, is doing nothing to stop AI from being a huge cybersecurity threat. And when you ask yourself why, it's because these AI companies have funded massive super PACs. They're threatening to spend over$100 million in the upcoming elections in order to silence people. That's wrong. We can, of course, respectfully work through the specifics of what AI policy should be, but we shouldn't be in a situation where AI companies have silenced the people's representatives and we do nothing.

37:32Rep. Greg Casar:And that's why I'm proposing this first step, a modest AI token tax to make sure that AI does not result in mass unemployment. Trying to figure out how it would actually work and whether it would actually work. So you get the tokens, you tax them. You've got a pool of money that you use for job programs. How would it work? Where are the jobs going to be? How would you know which jobs programs to pick for people that are being displaced? in the free market. When I look around, I see tons of good work that needs doing work that needs to be done by people that can't be done by AI. We have an aging population.

38:12Rep. Greg Casar:We need a lot more elder care in this country. As the father of a very young child, I know we have a huge shortage of childcare workers and teachers. There's homes that need insulating all around the country. So there's good work for people to do. These AI billionaires have been talking about the end of work. People like Bill Gates and Elon Musk saying that humans may not be needed for most things. I just disagree with that point. I think that Americans want careers. They want to help each other out and contribute to this country. And so just like FDR set up the WPA that finished the Hoover Dam, built the LaGuardia Airport, I believe that we can come together and have a program that makes sure that Americans stay at work even in the age of AI.

39:00Rep. Greg Casar:All right, Congressman, I'm from Texas, head of the Progressive Caucus. I got to be from Austin. That's what I thought. But then I saw it also includes part of San Antonio. Is that true? That's right. Go Spurs, go. Oh, boy. So tomorrow night. So what do you tell me, take the Spurs? I'm telling you, The Spurs will win. And I believe beat the Knicks. And the Democrats will also retake the House. You heard it here from me. Oh, my God. Doubling up. I got to think of this. I know. I'm sorry. You came to ask me about AI, but then you came and asked me about the NDA. What can you do? No, you're from Texas.

39:39Rep. Greg Casar:I'm like, head of the progressive? Where's this guy from? Okay, awesome. So I got it. It makes sense. But then in checking it out, then I also saw the San Antonio connection. Anyway, Congressman, I'm not willing to just say out of sorts that there's not something. I'm not sure how to do it, but I'm worried, as you are, about it. The only rationale to do it is to get rid of all the humans. It really is. And people want to work. I disagree with this future of lots of people without work being any better for our country. Thanks so much for having me on. You're welcome. I mean, I like the four-day week we had this week.

40:19Rep. Greg Casar:But in general, people like to work. Thank you, Congressman. Good to have you.

40:26Joaquin Duato:And that is Squawk Pod for today and for this short week. Thanks for listening. Squawk Box is hosted by Joe Kernan, Becky Quick, and Andrew Ross Sorkin. Tune in weekday mornings on CNBC at 6 Eastern or follow Squawk Pod wherever you get your podcasts. We'll meet you right back here on Monday. Have a great weekend.

40:47Rep. Greg Casar:We are clear. Thanks, guys.

41:17Rep. Greg Casar:Impact your trading. Download the latest episode and subscribe at schwab.com slash market update podcast or find Schwab Market Update wherever you get your podcasts.