Barry Diller Breaks Down the Battle for Media’s Future 05/21/25

0:04I'm Andrew Ross Sorkin and this is Squawk Pod. Barry Diller has shaped the media world for more than half a century, redefining television, launching networks, and backing bold ideas long before they were safe bets. Netflix, Amazon, and Apple control the entertainment business. They have, I don't know, what would you say, a hundred times the resources of these legacy companies, and they're in control. They ain't giving it up. On this bonus podcast, the deals, the stories, the man, Barry Diller. Reactions have been, I mean, they've been incredibly nice and positive and all of those things. But I do see in, not in the little beatiness of people's eyes, but I do see they look at me like, I now know you.

0:52You're going to hear from my one-on-one sit-down with Diller and from his appearance on the Squawk Box set with me and my colleague, Becky Quick. Squawk Pod begins right now.

1:06This week, Barry Diller published a memoir. It tells the life story of a name familiar to the media industry and our audience here on Squawk Box. This is Diller on our TV broadcast 10 years ago. It was for a show celebrating 20 years of Squawk Box. You know how I hate to be a contrarian. I know how much you hate to be a contrarian. You know, I think the words that we use now, nothing is, of course, predictable, but the words we use now, broadcast, cable programming, over the top, they'll all be gone. Because now, where everything is going to be distributed without question, through essentially a data pipe, not a broadcast pipe, not a cable pipe, but a data pipe.

1:52So over time, these definitions will no longer be in use. I don't think there'll be anything called broadcast television or cable television. There'll be brands, if people are good enough to have as much differentiation as they can conceive, or there'll be programs.

2:13At age 83, Diller holds nothing back from his formative years growing up in Hollywood to the start of his business career. He launched the movie of the week on TV for ABC at the age of 27. In his early 30s, he led Paramount Pictures. He got the Fox TV network off the ground with Rupert Murdoch. So many stories like this are in his new book, Who Knew? I spoke with Diller last week at the Manhattan headquarters of IAC, the media conglomerate where he is chairman. I asked him what led him to write a book about his life and career. Well, I thought only one thing. which is, it's a good story. And it's a good cracking story, if I could tell it.

2:55Who knew is already generating lots of attention? All this closet stuff. I mean, if I've been in a closet, it has been the most brightly lit closet with a glass door that you've ever seen. I understand kind of the catnip of media, but all this stuff about my sexuality at my frigging age is just seems to me, well, it's kind of obvious and over the top. Diller opens up about his sexuality and his relationship with his wife, Dionne von Furstenberg, the great love of his life. She said to me six months ago or a year ago when I knew I was going to publish, she said, just get ready. I said, get ready.

3:34What are you talking about? She said, just get ready. In the book, you talk about having a code. I just said I didn't want to live a hypocritical life. And so it was really rules. It was, you know, in a way, rules of conduct that I just adopted for myself. Interestingly, when I was like 20, 21, 20, somewhere around that period, I knew enough. And I said, well, there are things I will do and I won't do. And those are my rules. And it was adopted because I didn't want to be a hypocrite. And yet, I didn't want to tell anybody anything. So I said, I have to have rules for that. And I made them up.

4:18Rules for a life he lived in fear. But Diller says that gave him a superpower that propelled his career in business. If you have one great fear, you don't have room for many others. And I think that in a weird way, as painful as the early development was, I think that's actually a great gift, odd, crazy-ish gift that I was given that it allowed me to be fearless in so many other areas. What do you think you learned about yourself in the process of this? I've always had a problem living in the moment. and so doing it actually it's living in the old moments since I didn't really live in those moments at the time was kind of fun for me and it also I learned things in the process of doing it that I had never known you just said something that's fascinating to me and I think it's actually true of some of the most successful people in the world but I also think it's a bit of a prison Listen, you just said you don't live in the moment.

5:28Yep. I think that you live oftentimes in the future. I think you're often, you can be somewhere, but you're thinking about other things that you are hoping and projecting are going to happen in the future. Sure. Is that what's happening? Yeah. For a lot of reasons, I worried that if I lived too much in the moment, it would take things away from me. I thought if I lived in the moment, it would make me cynical. And one of the things I've always tried to hold onto to as a certain kind of naivete.

5:59Diller's work exploits are legendary. I asked him about his experience launching the fourth TV network, Fox, with Rupert Murdoch back in 1986. When Rupert, who I've always described as kind of the sun god, when the sun god smiles on you, ain't nothing like it. And the way he did me a great good favor when I went to him and said, I want to be a partner in this enterprise I've helped build. And he said, there's really only one principle, and this is a family company, and you're not in my family. And I left. So I want to ask you about that moment, because you're right. He says, this is a family company, and you are not a member.

6:41Yeah. That was the quote. And you wrote that your delusions at that moment about maybe having an opportunity to sit at that table, maybe almost as a member of the family, crumbled. What did you think prior to that? I thought I'd been told. What did I think prior to? Prior to him saying that, did you think that he... No, I think any employee, any good employee, thinks the company's theirs or should and is proprietary towards it. And any good employee acts like it is theirs. And it is a delusion because it isn't. One of the most challenging times in Diller's career was his court battle with John Malone, whose company Liberty Media sued IAC when Diller proposed his plan to split it up into five companies.

7:31I asked him to reflect on that court battle. I was really devastated by it because, you know, first of all, to say the least, control is a big part of my life. and I did utterly, I had a lifetime proxy on these shares, which meant I totally controlled the entity. And we were in Delaware court to, quote, take it away. So it went like right to my heart. So tell me when you got the apology, what you felt like. I felt a good, decent man reclaimed himself. I mean, he wrote me a lovely note. When it was over, and it was not only an exhale, to say the least, which I felt good about. But what I felt very good about is this person I revered who I'd been associated with then for 20 years or so did the right thing in the end.

8:22Because by the way, what I didn't say is when John Malone testified, our lawyer said, it's over. John Malone would not cove to the lies that his executives made. He told the truth.

8:38Stan Becky by. Stan Andrew by. Five, three, two, one, cue. The book really is, I just want to say, a love story. Because he does say in the book that he is gay, thought he was gay, thought that's what was going on in his life, meets DVF, actually doesn't like her the first time he meets her. Yeah, Dionne, I read that too. And then meets her again. and, as he says in the book, starts making out with her like he's in high school. And it was, I think, a surprise to him that this is what happened. And I think one of the things, and we talked a lot about it, the title Who Knew really is a double entendre because it's a little bit of who knew and who knew.

9:27We talked about how I've known him for 25 years. I never asked him, thought I knew, sort of, but I never really knew, but also marveled at this remarkable marriage that they have. and we're going to get to talk to him about all of that and so much more. Look, I think Barry's point that he didn't want to talk about his personal relationships, pretty valid one. And people don't expect most people to have to disclose everything that's going on in their life at work. Why would he be held to a different standard? And I think his rules were pretty appropriate, too. Just the idea that he would not take a man to a heterosexual event was one of those rules, right?

10:03He had certain rules that I'm not going to pretend. I'm not going to take a woman that I'm not with I think for him the complication was and we talked about for example Tim Cook who came out publicly about his sexuality and so many others who have over the years and actually he talked about just the courage that some of those people had but for him it was more complicated because he never felt that he was the poster boy for one thing or the other given that he was married to DVF And the relationship was as real as any relationship. And I know, you know, people always sort of is as real as any relationship is as real as any relationship.

10:41So it's it's an interesting dynamic because I think there's part of him that, you know, today says, oh, you know, I wished I had the courage. But the courage to do what to say what? Because it's a different situation. We're going to get to talk to Barry about all the headlines and everything that's going on. He's going to be live here at the desk. The book is called Who Knew? There's not a lot of books that I can say this about. It is a brilliantly written book. And it's a fascinating read. And he's right. It is a story. It's quite the story.

11:24Welcome back to Squawk Pod. In 2021, the little island opened off the west side of Manhattan. It's benefactor Barry Diller, who poured hundreds of millions of dollars into the innovative park, a public pier built on top of some dramatic pillars. I took a walk through the park with Diller last week. Okay, I know you never live in the moment, but is there one of these things? Oh, this one? That create the most satisfaction for you? I'm telling you something. As you walk up the bridges, these two bridges, as you walk, as I walk on them, and I see people coming, and they're kind of anticipatory, anticipatory, and then I see them leaving, and I see that they're happy, that is living in the moment.

12:06That's as close as I'll ever get.

12:11We are joined now by a very special guest this morning right here on the set. We're going to talk about the state of the media, deal-making, and so much more, and the life so well-lived by Barry Diller, chair and senior executive of Expedia and IAC, and the author of the book Who Knew?, which is available today. You've been not on a book tour, because the book, this is just the beginning. I don't know that there is such a thing as an actual tour, but my tour has been like within the 12 square miles of the city. But how have you been feeling about all of this? Exposed, weird, a bit. I mean, I've never, it's weird to be the product if you've been making products all your life.

12:47To actually be the product is a kind of odd thing to feel. So I'm feeling it, and I don't know. It makes me feel, well, you know, I wrote this book, and I should have known, since I'm telling the story of my life, that my life would be exposed. Well, here I am, surprised that it is. Why do you think, why are you so surprised? Because I'm a dope, because I have a great ability to compartmentalize, and I just, even though my wife said to me, get ready, I said, oh, no, no, no one will care. Please. No, no, no. Anyway, yes. What has the reaction been? Have people reached out to you? No, the reactions have been, I mean, they've been incredibly nice and positive and all of those things.

13:35But I do see in, not in the little beatiness of people's eyes, but I do see they look at me like, I now know you. That may be you imagining stuff, though. Of course it is. All of this is imagining. but how could I complain? It's very nice, actually. I mean, to do it is one thing, and then you never, or at least I almost never thought I would publish this, and it was only relatively recently that I said that I would in that, like, 10-year or so period of trying to write the thing. And, you know, once you do that, then you press the button. The rest is kind of auto. It just happens. What's the most surprising phone call you've gotten so far?

14:22I'm in my car a few days ago, coming off something, and I get a no-caller ID, and I don't, you know, we probably, none of us answer no-caller IDs. But you do. But I, son, I, I can't do the voice. Hi, this is Bill Clinton. And he had just, he said, I've stayed up all night. It was so incredibly sweet of him. He said, I've stayed up all night reading your book. And then he just went on about it. I kept trying to, like, say, gee, thank you so much, et cetera. All right, stop. It's making me, like, run into a wall. Okay, we're going to talk about all sorts of deals that are in the headlines now, but I have one question about deals in your book.

15:08Was there any of the deals that you talk about in the book something that you didn't want to talk about? Was there any that they had a four? What do you mean didn't want to? Well, is there anything in the book where you were like, I'm not, because remember, there were parts of the book I think you weren't sure you were going to publish. Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, I don't think there was any, I think I, when I approached talking about probably the, well, the third Paramount little try, I actually took out of the book. Why? Because I thought, why should I put another thing in that I didn't do rather than the things that I did do?

15:47Because while we were in there for three or four months. Which is the third try? Is this the most recent try? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You mean around the Skydance situation? Yeah, around that one. Well, here we are then. So let's go for it. It's kind of the book. We can do it here. Well, no, it doesn't matter. We were in there for a few months. And I realized that it was more about duty than desire. duty in the sense that it would be a great, first of all, a great way to end a book, given that my life was paramount kind of twice. Right. But in the end, I thought, I just don't want to do that. And so we dropped out.

16:24Didn't want to do it? We would have lost anyway, because who wants to be in an auction with someone who has a better balance sheet? And Larry Ellison has a better balance sheet than I do. Didn't want to do it in the sense that it didn't make business sense from the financial By the way, I think it makes enormous business sense. I think Balto, so I think they bought it abominably cheap. Okay. And so, no, I absolutely think it's there for the doing. And so, no, I think it's a perfectly legitimate economic transaction. Okay, let me ask you a more complicated one. What was that? That deal is not closed yet.

17:01And there is a real question about whether it will close because it sounds like... Oh, it'll close. Well, maybe it will. But the question is, what Sherry Redstone and that team is going to ultimately have to do to effectively placate the administration? You saw just yesterday, they effectively fired the head of CBS News, and they pushed out the head of 60 Minutes a couple of weeks earlier. What would you do if you were in that situation? Oh, I hope I'd brave it through. I hope I would. but I didn't have a guillotine at my neck as Sherry Redstone has because for her, if that deal does not go through, I mean, she was in technical bankruptcy.

17:41So I guess you do what you have to do, but even saying that seems like wish not. What I think is heinous is that for a stupid lawsuit, there is no one who thinks this lawsuit has any merit. At least I ain't hurt anyone, maybe a plaintiff's lawyer, but even that would have to cock his eyes. So it is utterly frivolous. So you ought to think, fine, go through this, sue us. But the idea that the FCC actually says that is then a standard for holding up the transaction. Look, we've seen this before, though. I mean, what have we come to? Where have we seen this before? with the AT &T deal in the first Trump administration that was put upon and put upon and put upon to put everything together before it was unspun again.

18:40Yeah, and by the way, of course, eventually it happened because there was nothing to stand in its way. But it took so long to go through that process. The idea you can't fight city hall. There is nothing to stand in the way that's legitimate of this deal. Nothing. Whether they settle it or not, I don't know. Let me ask you about a different deal. Yeah. I don't know what you thought of the charter and Cox getting together just this past year. Inevitable. Inevitable. Absolutely. And you think that deal will go through? Sure. They don't compete with each other. Why wouldn't it? And what ultimately happens then to, for example, parent company of this network, at least currently, because it's a spinoff.

19:19But I think long term people are all in such great shape. God bless. By the way, let it go out. Buy the stock, which will probably trade at a very low multiple. It'll be money good really quickly. It's a great... From your lips. From your lips. Why? What's the... Because the... What's the street missing? Because right now, everything linear is being discounted. Yeah. Everything. What will happen, just like happened in the record business, which is you had this great deaccessioning. And then, because people wanted records, old term, and streaming came along. It got resurrected. What will happen to these linear channels is they're going to all get reconnected into a bundle.

20:06And the streaming money will make up for you. This is not going to be a world of a la carte. So eventually, all that stuff gets reconnected. Not necessarily the incredible high price points that it was, but legitimately enough to pay the bills with a lot left over. So it's just a matter of time. Do you feel that way about all of these businesses? I mean, there's this business, then David Zaslav potentially is going to be pushing off some of his linear channels, including maybe CNN. I mean, you're going to see, you might see a lot of this. Yeah. What an opportunity. And so how long does it take to get resolved?

20:46Oh, you mean for it to come back? Well, first of all, by the way, we're sitting here in five years. Wait a second. Wait, wait, wait. These are all very profitable businesses. I mean, the ability of Warners to spin this off is because it can take an awful lot of debt with it, because they're legitimate businesses that have billions of dollars of cash flow. It's totally reasonable. By the way, I wouldn't spin them off. You wouldn't? No. Why? Because I think they're enormously valuable. Even if you're Brian Roberts and you hold a voting control in the spinoff company, too? Well, no, look, I think, again, I think keeping them is probably better.

21:26But if you're going to spin them off and you can keep control of them, which is vital, because what you don't want is someone to come in and cobble them up for scrap if they're out there with no protection. Having Brian, the best steward, having voting control of it protects it for the time it'll take for it all to get reconnected, which I say is three to five years. Okay. But what do I know? There's another, there is a lot. There's another question, though, about in the media business right now, which is just how valuable what people think of as the most valuable parts of these businesses really are anymore, which is some of the streaming businesses.

22:06So, you know, how valuable ultimately is HBO Max, or by the way, Peacock and NBC, or you can go down the line, meaning the businesses, there are certain businesses that are being split up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get the point. You get it. Sorry. Here I go. The businesses are all okay. They're just never going to be, they can't really be big growth businesses anymore. The old, you know, the hegemony has passed from the Hollywood quote studios. They will no longer dominate things. Everything now is dominated by the tech overlords because they really control it. Netflix, Amazon, and Apple control the entertainment business.

22:43They have, I don't know, what would you say, a hundred times the resources of these legacy companies. And they're in control. They ain't giving it up. Doesn't mean these other companies can't survive. They will survive. They'll just be smaller entities. It reminds me of Fox coming along and shaking up the three networks, primarily that were there, and then seeing, like, football, being CBS and going to Fox. Because they could pay more because it made more sense for them. When Fox came, there were three channels, then there were four, and then there were 400 a few years later. That had real effect.

23:21However, the old companies, the legacy companies, ended up like they did with every new technology up until streaming. They subsumed these companies and bought them in. So they still controlled everything. It's only when Netflix came in and really ripped it away. And then Amazon came in with a completely different business model. You know, the business model of people in the entertainment business is people come and pay you directly for your product. The business model of Amazon is joint prime. We don't really care what you watch, whatever. I mean, like you watch good stuff. But it's another business model.

23:57How do you compete with that if you're just out there making good television? We're going to take a break in just a second. But distribution. Yes. So there's Charter, John Maloney, you worked with for a very long time. There's Brian, there's others. And for a very long time, cable owned the train tracks. There was one set of train tracks, and that was it. Now there's Elon Musk, who has satellites in the sky. Amazon may be putting satellites in the sky soon. Obviously, the cell phone companies. Yes, what about this all time? So what happens to the values of the whole sort of distribution ecosystem?

24:34Well, it's no longer their lunch to eat every day. It does not mean that they can't survive. They will, but their margins are going to be affected, of course. You have competition, what's going to happen? You're going to have to lower, you're going to have to compete on price, which they will. It doesn't, it's not a disaster. It's just the great days when you had one railroad track, that one group controlled. Those days is over. Netflix, whatever happens after this, Netflix won. They won more than five years ago. End. The end. Well, it's not the end of the interview. We're going to come back in just a minute.

25:19The book is called Who Knew? We're going to get into more of that and so much more with Barry Diller right after this. Do check out this book. I said it's a love story, really, but we'll talk about that maybe as well. Okay, fine.

25:44We are speaking with the one and only Barry Diller. His new book is out. It is called Who Knew? And it's out today, and we've been talking about, I think this is actually one of the, it's a great business book, but it's a love story. Can we just talk about that for a second? Sure. What do you want to know? Well, I do want to know when you did the title, what you actually thought the title was supposed to mean. The title came to me one day, and these things do, you know, celestially into my dim head. It came, who knew? It wasn't who knew with a question mark. It was who knew. That was what came into me.