Doing the Math in DC: Senators Thom Tillis & Elizabeth Warren 6/3/26

3 Jun 2026 · 48 min · 20 chapters

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In short

Squawk Pod from the Senate Banking Committee room covers Capitol Hill fights affecting business and markets, including Trump administration tariffs tied to forced labor, a voluntary AI benchmarking executive order, and major personnel and policy disputes (Bill Pulte as acting DNI; Todd Blanche as permanent AG; GLP-1 coverage changes by Cigna). It also focuses on AI regulation and taxation, wealth taxes, and budget impacts.

Guests (backgrounds)

  1. Sen. Thom Tillis (R-North Carolina): serves on Senate Banking, Finance, and Judiciary; outspoken on confirmations and vote math.
  2. Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Massachusetts): Senate Banking ranking member; proposes AI/data-center and wealth tax policies.

Key claims

  • Tillis: Pulte lacks qualifications and “doesn’t have a prayer” for confirmation; the White House is failing basic vote math; he supports Blanche but says more work is needed on the “weaponization” restitution fund.
  • Warren: AI disruption is imminent; Congress should act now via an excise tax on AI data centers; voluntary AI benchmarking won’t constrain companies; wealth taxes are needed because billionaires exploit the tax code.

Notable examples

  • Tariffs: 10%+ on imports from at least 60 partners (including China, India, Japan, South Korea; also Canada, Mexico, EU, UK) over forced-labor bans.
  • AI EO: requires models for federal assessment; benchmarking participation is voluntary.
  • Pulte: criticized for “weaponizing” personal information; no intelligence/security-clearance experience claimed.
  • Cigna: stops covering GLP-1 weight-loss drugs for employees starting July 1.

Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.

Chapters

Tap a time to open that second in VO

Current Political Climate and Key Issues

0:00 to 0:24

Discussion on significant political challenges and reactions from lawmakers.

“Bring it all together with EverPure, the platform that acts like a living system, delivering the latest in data performance, security, and innovation without ever slowing you down.”

Current Political Climate and Key Issues

2:08 to 3:56

Discussion on significant political challenges and reactions from lawmakers.

“Good morning, everybody, and welcome to Squawk Box right here on CNBC.”

AI Regulations and Societal Impact

3:56 to 5:44

Exploration of the implications of AI regulation on society and economy.

“I was like, OK, good, because we don't want to lose.”

Media Dynamics and Leadership Changes

5:44 to 8:13

Discussion on recent changes in CBS News and the implications for journalism.

“It's all things that we can talk to these senators about today.”

Healthcare Costs and Insurance Challenges

8:13 to 10:45

Analysis of rising healthcare costs and their impact on public budgets.

“And what the value of the program becomes.”

Government Spending and Political Divisions

10:45 to 14:01

Examination of government spending concerns and Republican divisions.

“If you look at the government levels at Medicare, they are now talking about health care costs being up 30 percent year over year instead of up 5 percent.”

Political Dynamics in the Senate

14:01 to 15:18

Explore the tensions within the Republican Party and their implications.

“Yeah, they really want to make sure that there's stronger language in there and they feel like they have the power of the purse and they just want to make sure that's not the case.”

Upcoming Controversies in Intelligence

15:18 to 15:44

Discussion on Bill Pulte's controversial nomination for DNI.

“for acting director of national intelligence.”

Judiciary Committee Insights

18:18 to 19:08

Senator Tillis provides updates on the Judiciary Committee's activities.

“Maybe we should start with your perspective of judiciary, what's happening, and then attorney general news that we've gotten today, that Todd Blanche is going to be the president's pick for permanent attorney general.”

Concerns Over Bill Pulte's Nomination

19:08 to 21:45

Tillis critiques Pulte's qualifications for DNI and discusses political optics.

“I think Scott did a good job yesterday of indicating that this bogus payout pot is gone.”
Show all 20 chapters

Navigating Senate Politics

21:45 to 26:38

Tillis discusses the importance of understanding Senate math and strategy.

“And we just need to tell the president that clearly.”

Reflections on Republican Strategy

26:38 to 28:00

Tillis critiques the Republican approach to endorsements and nominations.

“And no, I'm not going to rubber stamp any noms that I think are not good for the president long term, no matter how he may feel about these people personally.”

Power Dynamics in American Politics

28:00 to 29:40

Explore the motivations of political players in the current landscape.

“When people talk about, well, Biden over prosecuted or Dems did that, that is a rationalization for you doing the same abhorrent behavior that you criticize.”

Senator Warren's Insights on AI and Taxation

29:40 to 30:20

Senator Warren discusses the implications of AI and taxation strategies.

“Thank you for always being so rationally honest.”

Senator Warren on AI Regulation

31:50 to 33:50

Discussion on the urgent need for AI regulation and its impacts.

“The future we must secure together for our nation.”

Concerns Over National Security and AI

33:50 to 37:20

Addressing national security issues related to AI and chip technology.

“Now is the moment to get ahead of that, to get started on our response.”

Political Implications of Appointees

37:20 to 39:20

Senator Warren shares views on key political appointees and their implications.

“And do you believe that he could be confirmed if, in fact, it wasn't just an acting role?”

Debate on AI Disruption and Economic Impact

39:20 to 42:09

A discussion on the potential economic disruptions caused by AI advancements.

“But I think we're sitting here listening and we're just supposed to accept that blindly when the whole point of AI really is to do things that don't require a human to do it.”

Taxation Debate and Wealth Inequality

42:09 to 46:09

Explore the discussion on wealth taxes and their implications for income inequality.

“Is there is there more value in changing the tax code to sense you could?”

The Case for a Two-Cent Wealth Tax

46:10 to 51:26

Learn about the potential benefits and rationale behind implementing a two-cent wealth tax.

“there are people who have amassed huge wealth.”
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Transcript

Automatic transcript. May contain errors.

0:00Elizabeth Warren:Your data lives everywhere. On-prem, in the cloud, across apps. Bring it all together with EverPure, the platform that acts like a living system, delivering the latest in data performance, security, and innovation without ever slowing you down. Sophisticated enough to anticipate your ever-changing data needs, yet simple enough to feel like second nature. Tame your data chaos with EverPure and make storage and data management the simplest part of your business. Visit everpuredata.com to learn more. To realize the future America needs, we understand what's needed from us. To face each threat head on.

0:34We've earned our place in the fight for our nation's future. We are Marines. We were made for this. Bring in show music, please. This is Squawk Pod and I'm CNBC producer Cameron Costa. On today's episode, we are squawking on Capitol Hill. Two very outspoken lawmakers, two political parties, and one Senate banking committee. This is like the firing line. Yes, sir. That's what happens in this town, I think. Republican Senator Tom Tillis gearing up for retirement holds nothing back. Whoever these people are in the White House need to get the hell out of the White House. I am tired of amateur hour.

1:18And Democrat Senator Elizabeth Warren, well, she's not retiring, but she doesn't hold back either.

1:24Elizabeth Warren:Jeff Bezos knows how to work the system. But the problem is, for hundreds of millions of Americans, they don't get to work the system. Each lawmaker responds to the biggest D.C. headlines, like Bill Pulte, named as acting director of national intelligence. Someone like that should be in charge of the deepest secrets in the United States. I don't think so, and I don't think anybody's going to go for that. She could be right. I don't think he has a prayer being confirmed by the U.S. Senate. AI taxes, wealth taxes, presidential appointments, and so much more. We may start one place. We have no idea by the end of the day.

2:02It is Wednesday, June 3rd, and Squawk Pod begins right now. Stand back to you by in three, two, one. Cue, please.

2:12Elizabeth Warren:Good morning, everybody, and welcome to Squawk Box right here on CNBC. We are live from Washington, D.C., where we are on Capitol Hill today. We are coming to you from the Senate Banking Committee room. And guys, we are here because Washington, D.C. is the one that sets the rules and regulations for American business and determines the fortunes for Wall Street. And we are going to be hearing straight from the sources themselves about changes that could be coming both for investors and for American business. The Trump administration is proposing some new tariffs on at least 10 % on 60 trading partners.

2:47U.S. Trade Representative Jameson Greer citing a failure by the countries, including China, India, Japan, and South Korea, to ban goods with forced labor. It would also apply to imports from Canada, Mexico, the EU, and the UK. And President Trump signed an executive order yesterday asking AI companies to provide models to the federal government to assess their capabilities ahead of a full release participation and the so-called benchmarking process would be voluntary. The order was light on specific details. The president signed it in private just weeks after he postponed a signing ceremony with prominent tech CEOs saying he didn't like certain aspects of the order.

3:28There's a couple of little modifications. David Sachs, yes, David Sachs, he signed off on this latest thing. Well, the voluntary piece is the sort of crucial difference between where they were a couple weeks ago and where they are now.

3:42Elizabeth Warren:And the questions are how much pressure comes with that voluntary status on that. If you don't do it, what are the end results? What are the repercussions if you don't go along with that? Remember when we got the news a couple of weeks ago that he delayed it? It was like, we don't know how to feel. I was like, OK, good, because we don't want to lose. We want to you know, we don't want to we don't want China getting ahead. We want a free market approach to this. But then at the same time, you're thinking this is really powerful. And if it's the equivalent of nuclear weapons, do you want absolutely no regulation and no guidelines on any of that?

4:16We did a panel yesterday at the CBC CEO summit that I was a participant in with two professors, one of whom has been studying what could happen down the line and really sort of thinking. How far down there? Basically says it. I mean, life all ends in death anyway, but that this is all headed to a terrible, terrible, terrible place. I mean, really talks about AI developing its own sense of thinking, ultimately, therefore getting into robotics. The robots started to build factories on our behalf. At some point, the robots don't really care about us anymore because they care about themselves. Yeah, you could.

4:57Elizabeth Warren:I mean, this is stuff Elon Musk. It sounds like Terminator, but it was sort of articulated in a way where a room of CEOs, I think, was going, oh, my. I mean, we've had, when was iRobot? That might be now. But we've had decades to worry about this. Yes, but I think we're probably, I don't know, 10, 20, 30 years from this kind of sort of super apocalyptic kind of concept. Oh, good. Well, that's good. So you've got a little bit of time. I've got a little bit of time. But your kids. Yeah, exactly. We saw what happened with Hal. I mean, it just is one example. I mean, that guy's still somewhere. Is that Dave?

5:38One of them is still flipping over and over forever, headed out into deep space.

5:44Elizabeth Warren:It's all things that we can talk to these senators about today. President Trump says that he called Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, confirming that he called Netanyahu effing crazy. I don't think he said effing. I think we're paraphrasing. I think he said it full on in a phone call on Monday. He made the comment on the Pod Force One podcast with the New York Post that was just published. Trump said he was a little bit perturbed at Netanyahu's constantly fighting with Lebanon. He later said he likes Netanyahu, has worked very well with him and called himself. They work together well as a wartime president and a wartime prime minister.

6:27I'm trying to think about whether you called me that yesterday specifically. Yesterday or just last hour? Or like this morning. You have said those exact words. I think I mean, I don't know about those words. It's time now for the executive edge. I think it was yesterday. I think it was yesterday. Veteran 60 Minutes correspondent Scott Pelley fired by CBS News this after a day where he blasted its editor in chief, Barry Weiss, and the new executive producer, Nick Bilton, during a staff meeting on Monday. Pelley accused Weiss of, quote, murdering the show and questioned Bilton's qualifications for the role.

7:08Reports say that Bilton sent a letter to Pelley telling him he was being terminated for cause, effective immediately in a lengthy statement that was obtained by several media outlets. Pelley accused management at CBS News, which is owned by Paramount Skydance, of incompetence and unprofessionalism. And on the built-in, effectively said this was insubordination in the context of this meeting, which he argued that Scott Kelly had. Very succinct summary of his feelings that I saw all over. He had argued he had hijacked the meeting. The interesting part now is you have this program in 60 Minutes, which makes 200 plus million dollars a year.

7:49It is an extraordinary franchise. is iconic in the news business. And the question is, in terms of who the talent is on the air.

7:59Elizabeth Warren:I think there's only three correspondents. I think there's three correspondents left. It's whether they stay. They may not stay with the program. The producers, whether the producers stay. Most of the producers, I mean, a number of producers, the senior producers have already left. And so then the question becomes, what is this program? And what the value of the program becomes. When I think of 60 Minutes, I don't think of Scott Pelley. I think of all the other great names that are on. You think of historically, Mike Wallace. Mike Wallace, Morley Safer, Ed Bradley. Just go down the list. When I think of producers, I think of Don Hewitt.

8:30I don't think of. I think the show will be okay. Now, Squawk Box is a different story, obviously.

8:36Elizabeth Warren:That was my takeaway. You get fired for cause. No, I need to distinguish between those two. But I think 60 Minutes will. The show will go on, hopefully. Maybe better. Maybe better. Health insurer Cygna says that it will stop covering GLP-1 weight loss drugs in its employee health plan. That is according to an email to employees on Monday that said that the change is effective July 1st. The company noted that those currently using the medications can choose to either pay for the drugs with cash themselves through the manufacturing sites or through TrumpRx. The company said that it remains committed to supporting its employees' health through a range of wage management programs and resources.

9:19Elizabeth Warren:But guys, this is an issue. When you have the insurance company itself saying it's not going to support it anymore, if you're looking at public budgets, at schools, at places all over the country, towns and cities, their budgets are blowing up because these drugs cost so much more than anticipated. And now more people are uptaking the drugs. And it's going all the way up to the Medicare and Medicaid services. So the question, though, had always been whether the GOP drugs were going to prevent so many other down-the-line costs. And so that if you were spending$150 a month or whatever it is, that you wouldn't be spending money on cholesterol drugs.

9:52You wouldn't be spending money on, you know, all sorts of other diabetes. Does Cigna benefit from that down the road? Arguably, the entire point of new drugs like this is that long term, you shouldn't have to have to pay for people in hospitals. But the short term is so awful that right now they are firing. Long term for Cigna, they keep doing it.

10:14Elizabeth Warren:It may be short termism, but it doesn't matter. The problem is the short term implications are great. And if you look at it, how it's playing out in the in the public sector and schools. I mean, I know that at one school I know of, they just fired several of the art and other activities teachers because the costs were so much greater that they can't. They had to get rid of everybody for all the specials that go on these things because they were taking these medicines. No, because the school's budget has gone so far overboard because there are more people taking these medications than had ever been anticipated.

10:45Elizabeth Warren:If you look at the government levels at Medicare, they are now talking about health care costs being up 30 percent year over year instead of up 5 percent. And the immediate result is you have to find places to cut. So long term, this may be, in fact, a cost saving effort. But in the meantime, I'm watching it playing out in school levels all over North Jersey right now where people are being fired, teachers or aides or special services. They're now going to look for contractors for some of these positions because they cannot afford to continue to pay for the health care services that are so far out of line.

11:16Elizabeth Warren:And then you're going your your property taxes are going to go up significantly as a result. I know Westwood just did this when they told all the employees. They just went, oh, well, I don't know. Maybe I'll pay for it. Maybe I won't. Because you're convinced that the GL will. Maybe I'll stay on them. Maybe I won't. I don't know. Because you think it takes down your enthusiasm for life. You don't want anything. You have no joy. You have no joy left. It's called the meh or smile. I honestly think you're misrepresenting what it is. You've got to take it. I talk to so many people. You've got to take it.

11:47I'm going to take it just to be the gimme pig so I can tell you. I want you to do that. But I think you're so wrong about what. Tell me what you really think. You think I'm effing crazy. Go ahead. I do on this on this score. I do because we know so many people who are now taking these medications. I know who, you know, seem to love life and enjoy food.

12:06Elizabeth Warren:Long term implications, I think, are great. But there is some real friction. You know what this means for budgets. I want to love going to Taco Bell. That's my whole my whole. I think you can get away from me. I don't think it's going to change your love for Taco Bell. It's going to prevent you from eating the fifth and sixth and seventh taco. President Trump saying that acting attorney general Todd Blanche will become the permanent attorney general. The president making those comments in a podcast interview and our Emily Wilkins is here. She's got more on that right now. Emily, good morning. Good morning, guys.

12:38Well, yeah, I mean, obviously, this is now going to be coming in front of the Senate, trying to figure out as far as getting Todd Blanche in there, getting him confirmed. And of course, this comes a day after Blanche told lawmakers that he was not going to be moving forward with that$1.8 billion so-called weaponization fund for alleged victims of government weaponization. Although it's notable because even after that, Todd Blanche told lawmakers that you are still seeing some lawmakers who have serious concerns about this weaponization fund, that they do need to do more to block it. Yesterday, of course, we had the CNBC CEO Council spoke a little bit with Senator Bill Cassidy, who said that he had concerns.

13:20He wasn't convinced yet that the fund was fully going to be blocked. John Cornyn actually just out with a tweet this morning saying that he they need to kind of stick a stake in the fund, making sure it can't go forward. And of course, this could all get wrapped up if we see the Senate begin to vote today on this larger effort to pass 70 billion dollars in funding for ICE and Customs and Border Patrol. And this could wind up becoming a thing that potentially divides Republicans. And, of course, it's one of several issues that Republicans are grappling with right now when it comes to exactly how they're going to stay unified on a couple of controversial issues.

13:53Elizabeth Warren:So that's I mean, they're basically telling you they don't believe him when he says the weaponization fund is going away. Is that a couple of them? Yeah, they really want to make sure that there's stronger language in there and they feel like they have the power of the purse and they just want to make sure that's not the case. Of course, a number of other Republican senators say, look, we understand why there's a weaponization fund. We're sympathetic to some of the individuals who have been impacted by various government investigations. We want to make sure that we are providing something for them.

14:23At the same point, given gas prices, given inflation, spending$1.8 billion is not kind of with the mood that they want to set. You heard the names. What do they have in common? You got Cornyn. You got Tillis. You didn't say Tillis, but Cornyn, Tillis, Cassidy. And you could say, at this point, are they free to vote their conscience? They don't have to worry about President Trump anymore? Or do they have an axe to grind at this point? They're PO'd.

14:54Elizabeth Warren:It could be a little bit of both. All three of them are. Those guys will not be saying their names in the next session. And, of course, the big question is, is that as Trump has other priorities that he wants to get done, when does that block come out? because it only takes four. Right. Emily, thank you. Thank you, guys. Tees will be next. Coming up on Squawk Pod, some fighting words over President Trump's pick, Bill Pulte, for acting director of national intelligence. Whoever told the president to go ahead and commit to this publicly before vetting it should lose their jobs because they should know that the math just works against Pulte being confirmed.

15:32Whoever these people are in the White House need to get the hell out of the White House. I am tired of amateur hour. A no-holds-barred, very candid conversation with Republican Senator Tom Tillis. That's when SquawkPod returns. Is Bitcoin complicated or do people just think it is? For a long time, it felt like something only tech experts or hardcore investors really understood. Between all the headlines, new terminology, and everything people say about it, it can seem harder than it needs to be.

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17:01Elizabeth Warren:Switch today. Get started for$60 a month for 12 months when you add an advanced solution to a qualifying internet package. Limited time offer. Restrictions apply. New customers only. Requires 300 megabits per second internet, security edge, and additional qualifying service. One-year agreement, paperless billing, and auto pay with bank account required. Taxes and fees extra. The wrongs we must right. The fights we must win. The future we must secure together for our nation. This is what's in front of us. This determines what's next for all of us. We are Marines. We were made for this.

17:50Welcome back to Squawk Pod with Joe Kernan, Becky Quick, and Andrew Ross-Sorkin.

17:56Elizabeth Warren:Joining us right now to talk about what's happening in Washington, how that impacts business and beyond, is Republican Senator Tom Tillis. He, of course, is from North Carolina. He serves on the Banking Committee, the Finance Committee, and the Judiciary Committee. And Senator, there are a lot of things happening in all of those committees that we've been seeing headlines on today. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being here. We appreciate it. Maybe we should start with your perspective of judiciary, what's happening, and then attorney general news that we've gotten today, that Todd Blanche is going to be the president's pick for permanent attorney general.

18:33Well, Todd's a good guy. He was, I think, a very important figure in us trying to get an off-ramp for the Warsh nomination, and I think he showed great leadership there. He's going to have to overcome some serious questions in the Judiciary Committee. You know me, I'm just binary when it comes to any January 6th equivocation. To this point, I don't see anything, but we'll be digging into the record to make sure that under no circumstances that he condone the events of January the 6th. That's a circuit breaker for me. It's not a matter of navigating into the gray. I think Scott did a good job yesterday of indicating that this bogus payout pot is gone.

19:16The anti-weaponization. Yeah, I think that that was absurd. It was timing and politically tone deaf. And there is a way for people who have been inappropriately prosecuted to seek restitution. They should use those channels. If we need to plus that up or make it easier to do, fine. But creating that fund was a bad idea. I'm glad that Todd distanced himself from it. But we got more work to do. Bill Pulte yesterday. I don't think he has a prayer being confirmed by the U.S. Senate.

19:45Elizabeth Warren:How long can he be acting? Don't know. You know, the Biden administration created a way for people to be acting for almost ever. So it is very possible that Pulte could be an acting DNI and work in his current position. How do you do it? You don't. I mean, to be honest with you, how do you do a job you have no qualifications? No, I just wonder what are the recess or how did Biden get it? Oh, they just they recycle it. It's sort of they'll go to the letter of the law, but there is a way that they could keep them in that position. But look, it's bad optics. Number one, Pulte is an attack dog. I mean, the guy got removed from his family board the moment the family no longer owned 51 percent of the family board.

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20:29He goes on to criticize his grandfather's wife about insider trading, and then he goes on to make a tax statement, so much so that his father and aunt disavowed him having any association with their family trust. Why do I bring that up? I bring it up because it suggests a temperament that's probably not right for the DNI role. If anything, I'd like to see the whole department scrapped. It came in after 9-11 because we had serious lapses. But my gosh, a quarter century later, we haven't figured out how to connect all these intelligence agencies. I told Gabbard. The director of directors. I told Gabbard.

21:04I said, look, I would vote for you in a minute. I ended up voting for him. But I'd vote for you in a heartbeat if you said that your objective is to eliminate this additional government agency. We're all talking about Doge. This is a duplicative agency that should go away anyway. So maybe Pulte could get my vote if he said his goal was to eliminate the agency. But look, I'm sure he seems to be doing OK in the current role. I don't believe he's ever had a security clearance. He clearly has no experience in intelligence. He has no geopolitical experience, no international connections, the sorts of things you would look for.

21:38He's a far cry from Dan Coats. But he's got a structural problem. He simply doesn't have 51 votes on the Senate floor. And he may not even have the votes in Intel Committee. And we just need to tell the president that clearly. Now, I will also tell you, whoever told the president to go ahead and commit to this publicly before vetting it, should lose their jobs because they should know that the math just works against Pulte being confirmed. Someone could have told the president that. What's that? Someone could have told the president that, and it still happened. That may be true, but then it's on the president.

22:07But hopefully somebody was out there saying, look, boss, we've done the math. He doesn't have a path. He may not even have a path through the committee, let alone any one vote. But they'll do the acting thing. I don't think they care. Well, I just I don't think I I don't think the job will be taken seriously. Radcliffe is the tallest pole in the intelligence tent anyway. I think that's one of the right ways that people rationalize Gabbard for the job. So I suspect it'll just continue to be a non-functioning part of the intelligence community if he plays that role. Does that qualify tallest pole in the tent for your one-liner?

22:39I want something a little racier. You want something a little racier. We talked about this briefly in Davos when it was clear that you weren't going to be running again. But you are clearly outspoken. You are you are speaking your mind. Yeah, I think you're speaking your conscience. You were debating whether it was your conscience or whether it was retribution or something else. You know, here's the first thing. I'll give you all a pass because I wouldn't expect you to watch me back when I was in the legislature. But guys, I have been bucking institutions since I've been in elected politics. I ran against a two term Republican fair haired child for the legislature.

23:15I went in 90 days into my first term and negotiated a renewable portfolio standard against the wishes of the majority of Republicans who wanted to run the state into a ditch over bad energy policy. I mean, how many times I've disagreed with the president on the Mueller bill. How many times do I have to go back and tell you all I told him that Gates should be AG, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, do your homework? I will also say. Those who say it. I'm not accusing you all. I'm just saying those who draw that conclusion should probably do their homework. You are not somebody who says that you are opposed to everything that the president does.

23:47Elizabeth Warren:Which is bullshit. No, I said you're not. I said you are somebody who says that you just mentioned that you'd be in favor of Todd Blanche. I have supported the vast majority of the president's proposals. What I have tried to do is steer the president away from things that I believe damage his legacy and damage his ability to get things through Congress. Fifth grade math, third grade math is all you need to do to count votes around here, folks. And what people in the White House need to do is maybe go back and dust off that third grade math book and start figuring out how you get 51 votes or how you get 100 percent of the Republican votes in controversial numbers.

24:28This is not art. Anybody can do this job on eight hours of sleep with a modicum of experience. So either these people aren't sleeping or they have no experience. Okay, but here's the political question. I think a lot of your peers say a lot of the things that you say privately, but don't say publicly. Because they fear, and by the way, maybe rightly that they will get primary. I don't begrudge them for that. Look, once you get, who won the Super Bowl this year? Who won the Super Bowl this year? Seattle. Oh, Seattle, sorry. What was the score? A lot to a little. Right. Nobody remembers the score.

25:06It's a win or loss sort of scenario, right? And so after you get enough votes to hold something, why would you run up the score and potentially expose people who may want to run again? You know, so the point is, anybody here, we were actually, we were going to talk about the Clarity Act. When we were in negotiations, I know also Brooks was here, great person to work with. I had some member on the other side of the aisle that was negotiating. He said, you're not going to get 70 votes if you do that. I said, I stopped trying after 60. So if you're telling me I've got to invest this much effort to get a 70th vote, then we're done.

25:39We'll deal with it once we get to the floor. People and the administration need to understand math. They need to understand timing. My God, you put forth this restitution fund when we're trying to get Homeland Security funded for three years, and you think that's going to go well in the same week? Oh, wait. And then you want to get 702 authorized, then you put an incendiary attack dog like Pulte out on the agenda while we're trying to get 702 authorized, and he would be one of the major users of it? It's like whoever these people are in the White House need to get the hell out of the White House.

26:11I am tired of amateur hour, and I've been trying to help the president. I will continue to help the president. And it's not because it's Donald J. Trump. It's because he's a Republican president. I've been a Republican my entire life, and I've worked to get Republicans selected, helped make a majority in 2014. Majorities in Congress are important to me. And members need to and people in the White House need to understand that their actions are the single greatest threat to us keeping a majority in November. And yes, I'm going to hold them accountable. And no, I'm not going to rubber stamp any noms that I think are not good for the president long term, no matter how he may feel about these people personally.

26:46Elizabeth Warren:So how did you feel about the president endorsing Paxton over Cornyn, over some of the other issues that have played out? I think it was a bad idea. Yeah, I hope the president will use his resources to pay for the incremental cost of winning Texas now, because without Cornyn there is probably about a 200 million dollar premium. And while we're spending money trying to get incumbents reelected, I'd really appreciate the president following through now that he got his nominee through by actually funding an effort that we would not fund it very much had it been Cornyn. It's all about choices. You want to make that choice?

27:17Fine. now on it because I want to see Collins, Sullivan, Hugh Stett, and these other members who need our resources to get it. They needed them before the Paxton decision. The president wants Paxton, then do the work to get them elected. But you're okay with Paxton. I couldn't care less about Paxton. I'm not going to be here. But the question I do have is how effective a member he's going to be and how exposed he is with his background. We've talked about Paxton and the guy in Maine. And I don't know if you can say him in the same breath, but it seems like it's kind of the same corner. Yeah, two sides.

27:51Although one corner is just so beyond the pale that, you know, I mean, I can I'm not even going to go there. But but how is that working? What do you attribute that to on the other side? Just they want power. They want power. And they want that. And I expect more. They would elect a big. When people talk about, well, Biden over prosecuted or Dems did that, that is a rationalization for you doing the same abhorrent behavior that you criticize. The American people are ultimately going to elect people that say, I am tired of that. I'm tired of the political physics. We are going to go buy the book.

28:26We are going to set an example versus create an example that's even worse than the one that we criticize. That's where we are in American politics today. Shame on the Democrats for putting Paxton Ford. If the people of Maine know, what Susan Collins has done for Maine, she should win by 90 percent. And the Democrats know she is a rock solid member that deserves reelection. But they are just desperate for anything they think that will win, regardless of whether it be a quality candidate. Don't you think they know that as a Republican? As it keeps coming out, Senator, don't you think they know that they got to do something with the or are they going to just go with this guy?

29:03Right. Well, we'll be able to ask Senator Warren in a moment. I actually think that Susan Collins wins that race. Keep in mind, she outperformed Trump by 18 points when she was up the last time. Susan Collins is in touch with the voters of Maine. I believe she wins that race. But we're going to have to put resources in there. And like in North Carolina, they say, when you learn me, you like me. The people that don't know Susan Collins will love her when they know what she's done for the state. And when people find out more about her opponent, they're not going to like him very much. And we're going to spend a lot of time and money making sure they got an informed ballot in Maine.

29:37Senator, tell us, thank you for coming. Thank you for always being so rationally honest. It's not a North Carolina thing. This is for the Lumbee tribe. Actually, they've been now recognized. They're the 575th tribe to receive national or federal recognition after 137 years of abject racist hatred towards this tribe. So it was great to see the president get that done. And I give the president full credit for making it happen. Thank you, Senator. Thank you. I just made a bet on the prediction markets that this interview just went viral. So thank you. I appreciate that very, very much. Still to come on Squawk Pod, more fireworks in the Senate Banking Committee room.

30:21The other side of the aisle with Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren.

30:25Elizabeth Warren:Your first$50 million in wealth is free and clear. Your$50 millionth and first dollar, you have to pay a two cent tax on. Right. Is that such a big deal? I mean, philosophically, I think it's a pretty big deal. Taxes on the wealthy, taxes on AI, and much, much more right after this break. With Uber's new women preferences, women riders can request a woman driver whenever they want. Like Amy, who's traveling solo in a city she's never been to before. Or Danielle, who works night shifts at the hospital. or Kelly and Jana, who were way overdue for a night out. Because sometimes comfort comes from having another woman with you.

31:14Request women drivers with women preferences on Uber. Learn more on the Uber app. I want to grow the game so every kid can fall in love with soccer like I did. So I asked myself, what would you like the power to do? My answers inspired me to invent a pop-up soccer goal that can turn any basketball court into a street soccer pitch.

31:36Elizabeth Warren:Bank of America champion street soccer advocate Kyle Martino and everyone who dares to ask, what would you like the power to do? Bank of America, proud to be the official bank of U.S. soccer and FIFA World Cup 2026. Bank of America N.A. Member FDSC. The wrongs we must right. The fights we must win. The future we must secure together for our nation. This is what's in front of us. This determines what's next for all of us. We are Marines. We were made for this.

32:22You're listening to Squawk Pod from CNBC. Joe Kernan, Becky Quick, and Andrew Ross Sorkin are in Washington, D.C. today in the Senate Banking Committee room on Capitol Hill. Here's Andrew. Welcome back to Squawk Box. Joining us right now is the ranking member of the Banking Committee, Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts. We have so many things to talk about, headlines. We will go through the names. We've just been ticking them off about what's happening in the news. But I want to start with AI for just a moment with you because you, And also, by the way, recently, Bernie Sanders have been proposing different ways to tax the AI universe.

33:00And we just had this EO on AI or executive order on AI. I know it's a different issue, but Sam Altman apparently is in town right now and talking to different legislators and the like. There's a there's a question mark about whether we should be taxing AI, how we should tax AI, if we should tax AI and what it could do to slow down. the development of all of this. Where do you sort of sit on this issue right now? Or is this an issue you think we need to be thinking about much just farther down the line?

33:29Elizabeth Warren:Oh, listen, we need to be thinking right now. In fact, we should have been thinking about this yesterday and taking action. Look, we don't know what's going to happen with AI, but we do know that the people who are most deeply engaged are talking about half the workforce losing their jobs. We're talking about enormous disruption in ways that we can't anticipate. Now is the moment to get ahead of that, to get started on our response. And part of it, I mean, think about it. If you were talking about a lot of people could lose their jobs, we're going to see a lot of disruption, what would you do?

34:06Elizabeth Warren:Well, you might start by saying, let's make sure that those who are getting the profits from this are also helping cushion the disruption. So I've proposed, for example, an excise tax on the data centers themselves, the place where all of this is being produced, so that, in effect, they internalize the cost of what they're doing. And that's money we can then spend on health care. It's money we can spend on child care. It's money we can spend on education so that people can train for other jobs. But shouldn't we be doing that now? Because it's, look, there's still a question mark. I think it's fair to say there's a question mark about what it is doing to labor in this moment.

34:47It may have a demonstrable impact, and I worry about that impact, down the line.

34:53Elizabeth Warren:So look, I'm going to do it both ways. We should be doing it now. We should be doing it now for two reasons. The first reason we should be doing it now is we need to get ahead of what's coming. You don't wait until you've laid off a bunch of people, until they've lost their health care, until they have no place to go to say, oh, we're Congress. we should now think about policies here. But the second reason we should be moving right now is these data centers have real impact. We know that. And if they're going to have an impact, then the answer is we need a structure in place where the cost that they impose, we have a way to actually tax that and move it back.

35:30Bernie Sanders is literally talking about creating a sovereign wealth fund where there'd be a dividend and we would own a stake in these companies. There's also a question whether it slows the innovation piece of it down. These are companies, by the way, not making money yet. And whether they're going to be able to compete properly if you believe we're in this sort of race against China.

35:49Elizabeth Warren:Yeah. Look, I'm very concerned about the race against China. But that opens another box we should be talking about. And that is the chips that we make here in the United States that were based on research that taxpayers in the United States paid for that NVIDIA and others have been exporting to China. You know, we have restrictions. Export controls on this really highly technical... NVIDIA would say that they are not exporting to China. Yeah, that's what they would say. Well, we certainly need a deeper investigation about how these chips ended up and where they are going through other places. But I'm saying, yes, I am concerned.

36:29Elizabeth Warren:But I'm concerned right now directly with the fact that the Chinese, in effect, buy our stuff. And American companies make a profit doing that. But it certainly undermines our long-term security, particularly because the chips we've been talking about are not just chips to help the AI industry in general in China. These are chips that are actually used for military purposes. You're talking about the most recent NVIDIA chips? We're talking about the most recent that are moving out and that we're very concerned about what's happening. It's also a question about the technology on how to develop those chips, how to build those chips.

37:07Elizabeth Warren:We need to keep that in the United States. Let me pivot the conversation to a couple of other big headlines. Bill Pulte running national intelligence. Yeah. What do you think of that? And do you believe that he could be confirmed if, in fact, it wasn't just an acting role? I think it's a terrible, terrible decision. And no, I don't think he could get confirmed. I mean, that's just my own view on it. I sure wouldn't vote for him. But I think there are a lot of people in the United States Senate who would say someone who has demonstrated that he is willing to use personal information to weaponize it against the perceived enemies of the president of the United States.

37:49Elizabeth Warren:It's someone like that should be in charge of the deepest secrets in the United States. I don't think so. And I don't think anybody's going to go for that. OK, Todd Blanche. No, no. I mean, what about Todd Blanche? Well, the the podcast this morning by the president says that he is the next A.G. Oh, I hadn't heard this one. Oh, OK. So, yes. So he apparently is going to become be nominated to be the next attorney general. And that would require confirmation. That's right. The guy who just cut the deal to say that the president of the United States will never have to answer for however he or anyone in his family may have cheated on taxes.

38:33Elizabeth Warren:The president of the United States gets the extra special deal that no other human being who walks the face of the earth gets. I don't think so. I think that's a pretty bad idea. Oh, and he's also the guy who helped negotiate the slush fund, because that was a real winner. The whole idea that the president of the United States should have$1.7 billion to hand out to his perceived supporters. I don't think so. I wasn't done with AI. That's what I want to go back to. You want to go back to AI? I want to go back to AI in this context, Senator. I have been torn because I agree that most disruptions in the past, I don't want to be a Luddite.

39:15And it's always led to, you know, we don't have buggy whips. It's always been great what has happened. But I think we're sitting here listening and we're just supposed to accept that blindly when the whole point of AI really is to do things that don't require a human to do it. And I think it's staring us in the face that this is going to be not the same as previous disruptions. And I think there could be really devastating truckers, too. I mean, you just pick any industry and you can find a way to do that. And I want to know how to do it without necessarily taxing it, which means less of it.

39:54Elizabeth Warren:OK, I want to let it act however it wants to act. But at the same time, I want to worry about it. Is that what you're saying? I'm saying that I want it to happen, but I don't see any other way than we're all going to be sitting around on UBI, on universal basic income, you know, playing video games. So part of the answer is we can't just let a handful of billionaires make all the decisions here. I think that has to be your starting point. I get it. They have built something. They think it's really exciting. They've gotten out there. They're building these data centers now as a way to make this operational.

40:29Elizabeth Warren:But the central question is going to be, are we here in Congress going to exercise any control over this? So what do you think of the executive order that the president? What do you think of the executive order that the president just put out about 30 days before you put it out? And it's voluntary. I'm sorry. Yeah. That may be the same template as the executive order that the banks will voluntarily reduce interest rates on credit cards down to 10 percent. Does anyone remember what the banks did in response? Nothing. Nothing. Exactly right. These guys are not voluntarily going to say, oh, we will cut our profits.

41:05Elizabeth Warren:We will make sure that we are doing anything other than maximizing the number of dollars that go into our own pockets. This is where power lies, but only if we pick it up and use it. And the way we can start that is we can start with the data centers, not with the when does your accounting show that you made a profit. Start with the data centers. You're out there building something. You're creating externalities. Because those companies are making a profit? Well, it's not the question of profit. It's a question of what they're handing out. It's like a tax on tobacco. We don't ask the question, did you make profit on the cigarettes?

41:41Elizabeth Warren:We ask the question. If you're selling them, there's a tax on it. That's what an excise tax is. What kind of a tax would you put? I put an excise tax. How big? So you measure it by their outputs. OK, and then you've got at least some constraint at the place. And I'm trying to pick the place, Joe, that is the least intrusive on the creativity, the place where they're actually producing the thing that pushes it out into businesses. Let me ask you a question. Is there is there more value in changing the tax code to sense you could? I mean, this goes to the sort of labor versus capital, more around capital gains and less around labor.

42:19Interestingly, we spoke with Jeff Bezos a couple of weeks ago and he made the argument that folks, for example, who are getting paid under one hundred thousand dollars in the United States effectively shouldn't be paying federal taxes at all. Yeah.

42:32Elizabeth Warren:What do you say about a wealth tax? He I remember I think I saw that. I think you saw that interview because I think I saw a social post that you might have been involved in on the other end of it. Because his view is he's on his way to being a trillionaire and please nobody get in his way. I think his argument was that he's open to a debate. I actually think he would have a debate with you and a conversation about whether there should be higher taxes on the other end. I think his bigger argument was that that is not going to fill the larger hole that would have. Right. And that's why that was my question.

43:04We tax the hell out of these bidders. Let's say we do. It's a finite number. does there ever come a point with 40 trillion in debt where you're not just thinking about taxing more to spend more on whatever you want to do to try to fix the world does it ever get to the point where we right now we're 24 percent of spent of what we spend and we're still raising

43:25Elizabeth Warren:18 percent but can we get it back down can i just invert that question and ask it of our republican friends here and that is is there ever a point where you will stop cutting taxes for billionaires because that is exactly why we have this dislocation. But I gave you that. I gave you that we're going to tax them. But that's still not going to be enough. Who else? So but let's start with a wealth tax actually is an astonishing amount of money from a handful of people because they have so much. You put a two cent wealth tax on all of the value that you've got above 50 million dollars. And what have you got?

44:04Elizabeth Warren:You've got enough money to do universal child care. You've got enough money to fund all of our public schools. You've got enough money to fund our colleges and universities. If you do it, you want to spend it. You don't even want our student loan debt. You've got the money we need here in America to start investing in our people. And Jeff Bezos says, oh, we could double his taxes and it wouldn't be enough. Absolutely. As long as we're going to stick with income, because Jeff Bezos knows how to work the system. But the problem is for hundreds of millions of Americans, they don't get to work the system.

44:39Elizabeth Warren:They don't get to say, oh, I'll just live off borrowing against my capital. He doesn't want to tax anyone below. The buy, borrow, die sort of theory of the case. I just want to posit you, and he said it directly, is something actually he doesn't do. He's been selling his stock regularly to finance, by the way, Blue Origin. You can decide whether that's a good investment, a bad investment. You can decide. But he has to sell the sell the stock and actually pay the taxes. That's how it actually works in practice. There are other people. I'm not just telling you that there's not other people who do this.

45:12But I think that he's probably not the right example for that particular case.

45:16Elizabeth Warren:So I will make two responses to this. The first one is, yes, he sells. He says to for Blue Origin and notice gets taxpayer support for doing that, because when he sells, that's different from somebody who goes out and teaches school and draws a paycheck. he gets to pay at a lower tax rate than someone else. And that's why I was raising the question about whether we should have higher capital gains taxes. But the other part of this is, did he sell stock in order to buy his$300 million yacht? I don't know. I don't know the answer here. But I do know that the billionaires, we've seen it, the billionaires are not paying based on their wealth.

45:53Elizabeth Warren:They have figured out lots of schemes, how to take advantage of our tax code, so that they are Jeff Bezos pays taxes at the same rate as a Boston public school teacher. And that makes no sense at all. We need a tax system that truly accounts for the fact that there are people who have amassed huge wealth. And I'm not I'm not looking at trying to confiscate everything they've got, but two cent wealth tax, two cents every year on what they've got. It's fair to say that your version or thought around a wealth tax is because you think there are too many loopholes in the other parts of the system. You and I have had debates about this before.

46:33And I have a view that we should be taxing realized gains as opposed to unrealized gains for lots of reasons that are mostly philosophical. But you would have to actually change parts of the laws around how capital gains works, how entitlements work. I mean, not entitlements, but tax of death. and there's a whole bunch of things you'd have to do to prevent all of the loopholes. I think the reason you like the wealth tax is because it sort of circumvents all of those other things.

47:01Elizabeth Warren:You bet it does. Because there's a whole industry that has grown up that gets paid by the likes of Jeff Bezos to make sure that every loophole is there and carefully protected and not only make sure that Congress protects all those loopholes and builds additional ones, but that over at the IRS, every interpretive letter works in favor of the billionaires. And that means against the problem we've got of a mounting debt. I'm not in favor of a lot of the things that you're talking about that you're targeting here. I agree with you on many of those counts. But one person's loophole may be another senator's version of trying to incentivize behavior.

47:40Elizabeth Warren:The reason that you know, it's clearly like the reason that you get a discount on your, it's incentivizing you to buy a home because you get the tax benefits that come with that. There are all sorts of behaviors that we incentivize. When you talk to people in the country, the same normal people you're always talking about, they see how much they're taxed now. And it might be, I don't know, 60 percent. If you're at a certain level in New York, in New Jersey, that's what your total tax is. Bill Maher the other day. And you see how the money is spent. And you see what's being uncovered now on how it's being spent.

48:15And the idea that this is still not enough, what the federal government is spending right now, you want to ramp it up, tax everybody, billionaires and maybe even below that and not even reduce the deficit. You want to even use that to spend more on Medicaid fraud. So let me ask you, Joe. It just goes through the cracks and doesn't work. Let's turn it around. You want more?

48:37Elizabeth Warren:Let's turn it around the other way. Let's turn it around the other way. If half of the wealth tax went to reducing the deficit, would you support it then? I'd at least listen a little bit more. You would listen a little more. But it's still not enough, though, Senator. How do you know it's not enough? Have you looked at the numbers on this? I have done the math on this. What's the total you could raise? On the bill? Well, it's now gone up. You want to go to$50 million now, 2 % down to$50 million. I want above$50 million. Your first$50 million in wealth is free and clear. Your$50 million and first dollar, you have to pay a two-cent tax on.

49:19Right.

49:20Elizabeth Warren:Is that such a big deal? I mean, philosophically, I think it's a pretty big deal. You think it's a big deal? I do, because you paid money to accrue that. Did you pay money to buy your house? I understand. You're going to do the property tax thing. And you pay a property tax on that, right? That's for services. For services and for the school and the go-to. You pay a tax on services. You pay these taxes all the time. What is that number if you do 2 % on$50 million and above? So I'm trying to remember. I'm going to ask Claude right now. Yeah, but I will tell you this. But you don't like Claude because you want to tax him, too.

49:53You can look it up.

49:54Elizabeth Warren:But here's the thing that's the most important. I ran this during my presidential in 2019, and we did all the numbers. And here's the best part. We just reintroduced. I got somebody to tell me what the number is again. Here was the part that struck me, though. between the time I ran for president in 2019 and now, the amount of revenue that a two-cent wealth tax would produce doubled. I just want you to think about that, okay? Income didn't double for my public school teachers in Boston. Income didn't double for millions of Americans across this country, but for that handful at the top, what doubled was not income.

50:33Elizabeth Warren:You like to talk about realized income. That's voluntary. Jeff Bezos can decide to do that or not because he's figured out he could make more money or not make more money on his investments. But what has doubled has been that accumulation of wealth, and I should add power, up at the top. A two-cent wealth tax just says, come on, look what you've gotten in this country. How do you think you built that wealth. You built that wealth. Your hard work, two thumbs up. Your innovative ideas, two thumbs up. But you also built it using a workforce. All of us helped educate. You built it using roads and bridges.

51:12Elizabeth Warren:All of us helped build. You use it being protected by police and firefighters and army that all of us helped pay for. And all we're asking in return, two cents on that wealth so that we can help stabilize this country so that we can invest in our people so they have opportunities and so that we can face something like an AI crisis with at least some cushioning for the American people. Senator Warren, I want to thank you. We appreciate it. That does it for Squawk Pod today. Thank you for tuning in today and every other day. Squawk Box is hosted by Joe Kernan, Becky Quick and Andrew Ross Sorkin.

51:52Weekday mornings on CNBC starting at 6 Eastern. To get the smartest takes and analysis from that three-hour TV show, right in your ears, follow SquawkPod wherever you're listening now. We'll meet you right back here tomorrow. Have a great day. We are clear. Thanks, guys.

52:19To realize the future America needs, we understand what's needed from us. to face each threat head on. We've earned our place in the fight for our nation's future. We are Marines. We were made for this.

From the publisher

In the Senate Banking Committee room, Senator Thom Tillis (R-NC) and Senator Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) weigh in on Todd Blanche as acting Attorney General and Bill Pulte’s new appointment as acting Director of National Intelligence, and the concept of taxes on AI. Senator Warren does the math on wealth taxes, and Senator Tillis underscores his position with the President. Gearing up for retirement, Sen. Tillis is saying the quiet part out loud–directly to his own party. Plus, Cigna has dropped coverage of GLP-1s for its own employees, CBS has fired veteran correspondent Scott Pelley after a heated meeting about the direction of the network under Bari Weiss, and President Trump has signed an executive order on AI. 

 

Emily Wilkins - 12:42

Sen. Thom Tillis - 17:44

Sen. Elizabeth Warren - 32:23

 

In this episode:

Sen. Elizabeth Warren, @SenWarren

Sen. Thom Tillis, @SenThomTillis

Joe Kernen, @JoeSquawk

Becky Quick, @BeckyQuick

Andrew Ross Sorkin, @andrewrsorkin

Cameron Costa, @CameronCostaNY


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