Ebola Risks, Ferrari’s Luce, & Pope Leo’s AI Warning 5/26/26

0:00Sebastian Mallaby:At Venture Global, we think about what can be done, not what's usually done. Through innovation, Venture Global is not only building some of the largest energy facilities in the world right here in the United States, but delivering American energy at a fraction of the cost in a fraction of the time. So while others are busy talking, we're busy building. That's Venture Global. That's unstoppable energy.

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1:03Sebastian Mallaby:Hi, I'm CNBC producer Katie Kramer. Today on Squawk Pod. Pope Leo is bridging the Vatican and Silicon Valley with his first major teaching on AI. Author Sebastian Malaby breaks down the risks and regulation laid out by the head of the Catholic Church. This is not just a normal technology. This is not a shopping app. This is existential. Where humanity fits into innovation. The political consequences of AI disruption could exceed the actual labor market effects. And gauging the Ebola risk with former FDA Commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb.

1:40Dr. Scott Gottlieb:The earliest cases may have been in March. So this has been spreading for a very long time before it was ultimately detected and they started to take actions to try to mitigate further spread.

1:49Sebastian Mallaby:Those conversations today, plus Ferrari's first fully electric vehicle, a formal union for rideshare drivers, and the latest in the Middle East.

1:57Dr. Scott Gottlieb:If I were Ron at this point, I wouldn't be talking so tough. I really wouldn't.

2:03Sebastian Mallaby:It's Tuesday. Yes, Tuesday, May 26. Squawk Pod begins right now.

2:09Dr. Scott Gottlieb:Stand Becky by in three, two, one. Cue, please. Good morning, everybody. Welcome to Squawk Box right here on CNBC. We are live from the Nasdaq market site in Times Square. I'm Becky Quick, along with Joe Kernan and Andrew Ross Sorkin. Happy Monday, sort of. Happy Tuesday, even better. Nice. It's Tuesday. It's like a hybrid. First day of the week, but only three more to go. That's the thing. That's a four-day week. that is. Meantime, tensions are high in Iran this morning. This after the U.S. military sank two Iranian Revolutionary Guard ships that it said were attempting to lay mines in the straightforward movies.

2:49Dr. Scott Gottlieb:Now, yesterday, Iran responded by launching surface-to-air missiles at U.S. planes. The U.S. then struck back at a missile launcher. A spokesman for the U.S. command said that the United States, quote, continues to defend our forces while using restraint during the ongoing ceasefire. Now, Yesterday, President Trump said on Truth Social the negotiations are proceeding nicely, he called it, and that it would either be a great deal for all or no deal at all. Of course, this comes after our sort of Friday. I don't know what we're going to call it, Friday head fake, but an attempt on Friday to tell the world that a deal was in the offing and was done.

3:28Dr. Scott Gottlieb:That seemed to get a rebuke from a number of senior Republicans and has set all of this into a real new question all over again. The minute I start feeling like one of those Republicans, more hawkish, it's like, finish this. You went this far. You know, the 60 day concession to talk about the nuclear. Then I immediately think, oh, my God, I'm a neocon. And, you know, I'm ready to just jump in and just immediately. So I don't know how to feel about it. I just, you know, they've been a thorn in our side for so long and they're so annoying the way they pretend to come to the table and then talk tough.

4:11Dr. Scott Gottlieb:And then we don't know whether there are factions over there that realize midterms are coming up and want to wait and talk about, you know. You don't think they realize that? Of course they realize that. I said they do. We know that they're over there playing us and playing the whole thing. But then there may be much more moderate, perhaps reasonable people that we don't even know about that we are negotiating with that are saying you can have this stuff and you can destroy it. If you listen to the hardliners, they aren't even discussing giving us the 962 pounds. Overnight that there are no safe American bases in the region was the additional record that came out with this.

4:56Dr. Scott Gottlieb:But I will say both sides seem to not be pushing further in terms of taking the next step after this attack, counterattack. Lifting sanctions, war reparations, you know, all these things that were if we're even talking about getting to that point and then taking 60 days to decide to get a final answer on the nuclear material. That just seems like we're giving them way too much. But then again, like I say, I don't want to act like a war bonger that, you know, some neocon that all he wants to do is. It'll take 30 days, even from an agreement being reached before the strait is reopened. And possibly longer with the insurance pieces and other things.

5:40Dr. Scott Gottlieb:I mean, I think there's a sense. And they're saying they're going to still control it. Months and months and months. And it's our strait. And that's all. Charge a toll. What we're saying that they're saying is different than what they're saying. Yes. But that's why I don't understand why we publicly come out. Because it may be the hard line. Well, because it's because what hope springs eternal for a good outcome. But we've been told we've been told now, I don't know, half a dozen dozen, more than that. Right. That a deal is done. The straight is open. It's all finished. It's figured out. Like what surprised me was the reaction in the oil markets overnight again.

6:14Dr. Scott Gottlieb:WTI being down more than eight percent last week. And then it was down to ninety dollars overnight. You know, pick back up to ninety two forty seven. But nobody wants to. Yeah. And something it could be a an outcome that's what are we 13 weeks in or is it even longer? Yeah, there could be a. An outcome. That's favorable. I mean, if I were Ron at this point, I wouldn't be talking so tough. I really wouldn't. I would not be talking so tough. Put yourself in their shoes for a second. You really would not be talking so tough. No, I wouldn't be talking so tough. I'd want this over. and I'd care about my people.

6:53Dr. Scott Gottlieb:You're lucky enough to be in power still, that regime. And I just wouldn't, you don't have the same bluster that you had six months ago when you had all those drones and all those missiles and all those. I'm not sure that's the case. Well, this has always been your viewpoint, but that's, you know, that's. By the way, which has been the right viewpoint thus far? It's not been four or five weeks. Dow hit another new high. I mean, has that been your right viewpoint? I didn't talk about whether the Dow is going to go up or down. I never did. You go back and look at the tapes. I never tell you what the stock market is doing, ever.

7:30Dr. Scott Gottlieb:You didn't predict seven months ago a 30 % rise in the S &P. We're talking crashes and all kinds of things. I didn't say we were going to have a crash. Think how great it would have been if you said, you know what? I'm really thinking. Really bullish. Yeah. That would have been good, too. That would have been a change. If you told everybody to buy stocks, that would have been good for you, too. I've always been telling people to buy stocks, basically. And Bitcoin. In the meantime, Pope Leo issuing a warning about artificial intelligence. He said that it threatens to normalize, in his words, an anti-human vision and said that the concentration of immense digital power in the hands of a few private actors must be countered.

8:12Dr. Scott Gottlieb:He suggested that the risk as humans will be reduced to what he said are mere cogs in a system driven towards ever greater efficiency. At the presentation of the documentation, which is known as an encyclical, the Pope was accompanied by Christopher Ola, a co-founder and safety researcher at AI firm Anthropic. And shares of Ferrari are falling. On Sunday, the company unveiled its new electric speedster. The Luce is named after the Italian word for light. You think it's the color, Sorkin, that maybe wasn't so? I like the car. It's an EV, I guess. It's$600 ,000, isn't it? It was designed in partnership with longtime Apple designer Johnny Ive.

9:00Dr. Scott Gottlieb:It looks like an EV. And that looks like one of those ones that look like Thomas, a tank engine. The starting price,$640 ,000. It's the first Ferrari with five seats. It accelerates from zero to 60 in less than 2.5 seconds with a top speed above 190 miles per hour. God, that looks like a Toyota RAV. It can travel roughly 330 miles on one charge. And Ferrari CEO spoke to our colleagues at CNBC Europe earlier this morning. We invested a lot of money. We invest the right amount of money. We are focused. We are disciplined. We use the capex in the right way. I think that we invest the right amount of money.

9:46Dr. Scott Gottlieb:And this initiative, this business initiative, is in line with the profitability that we have also for other initiatives in the same range. So when we use capex and use opex, we use wisely. And the car has its own engine roar, which is made by deliberately amplifying the natural sound of the electric axles to the street. Is that like a whining sound? No, it's fake. It can also be amplified in the cabin in performance mode if you need the sound. Well, I will say I still have the sound of the shutter click on my camera, which is totally fake from this. Because I can't stand not having the sound there.

10:31Dr. Scott Gottlieb:It drives me nuts to not hear. To not have the, oh, you're saying you keep the sound on. Yeah, I keep the click, even though it's manufactured and fake. It's how you know you're taking a picture. Shutter click. Mine still does that. Yeah. Drivers for ride-hailing apps like Uber and Lyft have unionized in Massachusetts. Now, the app Drivers Union says it will represent nearly 70 ,000 workers in the state who now have the power to collectively bargain. and they won the right to unionize in November of 2024 through a statewide ballot initiative. Uber said it would work closely with the union drivers and the state government.

11:06Dr. Scott Gottlieb:Lyft saying it was committed to engaging in good faith. And of course, this is important because we will see whether the effort to unionize in other states comes to fruition. There was a big effort, of course, in California and other places before and how that changes ultimately the economics of all of these businesses. What if you connect the dots? What's the worst case scenario? If it goes over, it's bad. Is it not? It depends. We just had a whole conversation about the dignity of work and the church and about what it means to employ people and all of that. It will change the whole ride. It would likely make it much more expensive.

11:44Dr. Scott Gottlieb:I mean, to drive. Yeah. In places like New York City, it probably wouldn't change the dynamic much. But in other states and other parts of the country, it would, because the truth is the rates are actually pretty low. And Uber and Lyft are taking a pretty nice chunk of that number. Some of those people, of course, are working part time doing this sort of on the side. And then there's other people who are doing this is now a full time job. And should they be getting the equivalent of full time benefits and the equivalent of what it would look like to be a full time employee or not? I live in the real world, though.

12:23Sebastian Mallaby:Cheese will be next. Coming up on Squawk Pod, we're unpacking the Pope's encyclical on artificial intelligence with author Sebastian Malaby. The risks of innovation and the tech personalities in charge. It's not true that they're motivated just by profit. They're motivated by something more crazy, which is power, the sense of having humanity's destiny in your hands. We'll be right back. At Venture Global, we think about what can be done, not what's usually done. Through innovation, Venture Global is not only building some of the largest energy facilities in the world right here in the United States, but delivering American energy at a fraction of the cost in a fraction of the time.

13:08Sebastian Mallaby:So while others are busy talking, we're busy building. That's Venture Global. That's unstoppable energy.

13:43Dr. Scott Gottlieb:Or find Schwab Market Update wherever you get your podcasts. To realize the future America needs, we understand what's needed from us. To face each threat head on. We've earned our place in the fight for our nation's future. We are Marines. We were made for this.

14:05Sebastian Mallaby:Welcome back to Squawk Pod from CNBC. Here's Andrew Ross Sorkin.

14:10Dr. Scott Gottlieb:Pope Leo warning about the risks of AI, saying it threatens to normalize an anti-human vision. He invited Anthropoc's co-founder, Chris Ola, to present alongside him. Joining us right now, Sebastian Malaby, Paul Volcker, Senior Fellow for International Economics for the Council of Foreign Relations. He's the author of multiple books, including a great new one called The Infinity Machine, about Demis and Deep Minds and AI, and you are like the perfect person to talk to about this situation with the Pope and what the Vatican was saying over the weekend. What did you make of what he said? Were you surprised, by the way, that Anthropic was like right there as part of this?

14:52Sebastian Mallaby:Classic Anthropic, right? They're always reaching out and being the most keen on safety. And if somebody is going to say that AI, as it's currently configured, it's going to delight domination, exclusion, and death. which is what the encyclical says. Right. There'll be somebody from Anthropic there to listen and to say this is an important statement.

15:11Dr. Scott Gottlieb:What do you think the rest of the Valley is thinking right now?

15:15Sebastian Mallaby:It's funny, you know, I mean, I think they know that there's this huge backlash, right? And this is an extra dimension of the backlash because the classic backlash is jobs. It is my kids, their education is going to be messed up by these LLMs. you know it's uh maybe you know a sort of sense of a sense of but this is existential so i guess that's the difference thing this is the pope saying humanity itself is being challenged by a new form of intelligence and there are all these debates about is machines can they be conscious you know we used to talk about um the rapture in religion now we talk about the singularity um the idea of the afterlife this is transhumanist idea you upload your brain to a computer there are all these religious overtones to the AI language.

16:02Sebastian Mallaby:And maybe that's also part of the backlash. It's creeping people out. And that's what the Pope is articulating.

16:07Dr. Scott Gottlieb:But when you think about the folks at Anthropic, or by the way, even Sam Altman early on and others who've talked about sort of the real dangers that this technology poses. Demis has talked about the dangers. Is that a marketing ploy to sort of prevent, or they thought it was going to sort prevent the pushback later? Is that real to you? What do you think this, what is this?

16:30Sebastian Mallaby:No, look, I think it's totally real. If you take Demir Sasabes as an example, he founded his company after going to a safety lecture in 2009 by his co-founder Shane Legg, at which it was predicted that humans would be threatened by machines around 2030. And so this idea that this is not just a normal technology, this is not a shopping app, this is existential, And this is foundational to how these tech founders think about it. And it's not true that they're motivated just by profit. They're motivated by something more crazy, which is power, the sense of having humanity's destiny in your hands.

17:09Sebastian Mallaby:It's even beyond the 21st century version of the nuclear material.

17:13Dr. Scott Gottlieb:That's what I was going to say. The whole idea that in order for this to be safe, you have to keep it open source. He's kind of pushing back on that. The idea that there should be any open source, I think he thinks is a little crazy. And maybe you do, too, because would you do an open source nuclear project?

17:28Sebastian Mallaby:No, exactly. I mean, I think open source is the biggest miss by both the Biden administration and the Trump administration. Nobody is willing to say this is too dangerous. There was just some research out recently where some people took hold of the open source models, both from Google DeepMind, the Gemma series, and the meta models, which are open source. and showed how you could remove the guardrails super easily and then ask it to talk to you about chemical weapons and how you would make them. So this is way too dangerous. We have mythos. That was proprietary. It was restricted proprietary. Only 40 institutions got it, right?

18:08Sebastian Mallaby:That's where we're moving to. That's where we need to move to, is being very careful about how we release this stuff. An open way where everybody can do whatever they want, nuts.

18:16Dr. Scott Gottlieb:You've studied Google at great length, given your book about demos. They just came out with some new models last week. I'm curious if you wanted to stack ranking them for the viewer right now in terms of how you think about where Google really lays in this game versus where Anthropic is versus where you think Sam Altman at OpenAI is and maybe even where Meta is right now.

18:39Sebastian Mallaby:Yeah. So I think Google is sort of the second placed runner that always ends up winning. Right. OK. You know, it did not come out with Chatty PT first. It did not come up with agentic models as quickly as Anthropic. It did not do coding genius as quickly as Anthropic. But it comes from behind. It's got so much resources. You know, Google's profits just since 2022 have doubled. They are monetizing this directly. They are turning it into clicks and to, you know, click rates. They are charging. Not only has the click rate gone up, they are charging more per click because the clicks are more valuable with AI embedded in search.

19:16Sebastian Mallaby:You know, it's more accurate in terms of what people want to buy. So Google is just like minting money. And they've got a deep scientific bench. They have this enormous surface with consumers. You can serve them through search, AI mode, AI overviews. More than a billion people.