Palantir CEO Alex Karp & Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent 11/4/25

0:00Bring in show music, please. This is Squawk Pod and I'm CNBC producer Cameron Costa. On today's episode, Treasury Secretary Scott Besant is ready for the Supreme Court hearing on President Trump's emergency tariffs. There are lots of other authorities that can be used, but AIPA is by far the cleanest and it gives the U.S. and the president the most negotiating authority. He says an economic tipping point merits emergency measures. IEPA is an emergency authority, and we were in an emergency situation. And Palantir CEO Alex Karp has a sharp message for critics. Most of GDP growth in this country is because of AI.

0:49The real question is, how do we grow that and expose workers? What is the worker available GDP? He's snapping back at short sellers, and he's speaking colorfully, as he always does. I'm not the only one who's a freak show. I'm just more open about it. Those big conversations, plus the longest government shutdown in U.S. history. And another opponent to Elon Musk's pay package. Okay, Norway, we gotcha. It's Tuesday, November 4th, 2025, Election Day, and Squawk Pod begins right now. Stand Becky by in three, two, one. Cue, please. Good morning, everybody. Welcome to Squawk Box right here on CNBC.

1:32I'm Becky Quick along with Joe Kernan and Andrew Ross Sorkin. Meantime, it is now day 35 of the government shutdown. The Trump administration telling a federal judge it's going to use several billions dollars worth of contingency funds to pay for Americans' SNAP food benefits. But that will only cover part of the total paid out each month. It's unclear when that money will begin flowing. And we're going to get to speak in just a little bit with Treasury Secretary Scott Besson right here on Squawk Box. In addition, the Wall Street Journal saying that hundreds of travel related businesses like hotels and casinos are asking Congress to pass a simple funding bill to end that shutdown.

2:08Also, an airline industry group saying more than three million U.S. passengers have been impacted by delays or cancellations stemming from air traffic controller issues since the shutdown began. Tesla is going to be holding its annual shareholder meeting on Thursday. Norway's Sovereign Wealth Fund says that it will vote against Elon Musk's proposed pay package. If it's approved, the plan could grant Musk's stock worth a trillion dollars over 10 years. The Norwegian fund holds about a 1.1 percent stake in Tesla that's worth$17 billion. Fund leaders say that they're concerned about the size of the pay plan, dilution, and, in their words, lack of mitigation of key person risk.

2:48We're also hearing from longtime shareholder Barron Capital. Ron Barron's firm says that it will vote in favor of that pay package. In a statement, Barron Capital says, The plan ensures that shareholders win first and that Elon Musk continues to lead Tesla for many years to come. We commend the board for recognizing this and for working to retain Tesla's most valuable asset. You know, Ron Barron writes a very long letter on this. He goes on to say that that key man risk, this is the key man risk of all key man risks out there. He's very interested in making sure that Elon Musk stays on. Guys, he's been here on set and talked with us about that in person, too.

3:26But it's a huge position for Barron Capital. He lays out that, you know, they've already earned about four billion dollars in profits just on SpaceX. But from Tesla alone, they've earned, where was it? They purchased, they originally purchased 400 million, went on to buy more and more with that. But I think they've earned more than$40 billion from Tesla on that. It's a huge position in Farron funds, too. I don't even know where to go with Norway. I'm surprised the argument. Norway did. I'm surprised with what Norway's saying, because if you really look. This delay is no good. Their entire GDP is about$340 billion versus 20 point, you know, and they don't have anything close to that in terms of a successful company.

4:11So, OK, it's nice that you're weighing in Norway. Twenty point five trillion. This is a couple of years ago. It's not those aren't even current numbers. Anyway, Andrew, the delay is tough. Were you on Wolf's show yet? I did Wolf's show this morning. But on the Norway issue, the thing that surprised me was the truth is, if you really look through the Tesla plan, it actually calls for, in fact, effectively creating a successor to Elon Musk as part of the actual plan itself, meaning he can't be paid at least some of the amount of money unless a successor is ultimately picked. At least that's what the plan appears to suggest.

4:50So I was surprised to hear that that was the rationale. There are lots of other people with lots of other rationales. But that argument, at least to me, doesn't bear as much weight, given that they specifically talk about finding a successor. Well, John Barron kind of hints at that, too. He says part of what Elon does is build and bring in these engineers, teach them and train them and create this core of engineers who don't want to leave. Yeah. I mean, it was hard. I almost laughed out loud. Norway. Okay, Norway, we got you. You got 1%. I don't even know if that, I don't know. We'll see what happens.

5:23It's election day here in the U.S. Some key contests around the country involving governor's races, big ones in New Jersey and Virginia. The main event could be New York City's mayoral race between Andrew Cuomo, Zoran Mamdani, and Curtis Sliwa. Polls are open from 6 a.m. to 9 p.m. local time. And President Trump telling supporters on two social to vote for Cuomo, threatening to send only the very minimum amount of federal money to New York if Mamdani wins. We'll get a live report from Midtown later this hour. I don't know. I was looking at what it's 90 percent plus, I think, on most of the prediction markets.

6:05And really, the other stuff on the prediction markets is, you know, does he win by 10 percent? to the greater than 10 percent, less than to Staten Island. Staten Island is going to go for Slewa. Yeah, Staten Island is going to go. I read them this morning and they secede. If you on Calci, interestingly, the vote, the votes, the folks who are betting effectively in New York versus the folks who are betting outside of New York are distinctly different. People in New York are actually thinking that Cuomo could win. It's outside of New York that folks think that Mondomini would win. And again, this goes to your issue about manipulation.

6:47I don't know if it's manipulated, but it's just so interesting to see that distinction. Where does George Soros live, Andrew? You must know that. Come on.

6:59This is just in to the newsroom here. Former Vice President Dick Cheney has died due to complications of pneumonia and cardiac and vascular disease. He was the 46th vice president serving under President George W. Bush. Before that, he served as White House chief of staff, congressman from Wyoming and secretary of defense. You can see he was 84, one of the most powerful vice presidents and was in charge of finding a vice president for President Bush and said, why not me? In fact, we've referenced that in terms of Scott Besson, who's going to be on the show later, that sometimes the person looking or tasked with looking for a position ends up being taking that position himself.

7:45I was going to just look to see. He got a heart transplant, didn't he? I think I mean, I don't remember everything. Cardiac disease. Cheney. Yeah. I think he did. Back in March 24, 2012, he was 71 years old when he actually had the heart transplant. He had a history of heart disease. He had five heart attacks by 2010. And he actually, in that year, I think, received an LVAD, a left ventricular assist device to help the heart pump and then later transplant. So we send condolences to his family. And the passing of, is he, would you call him an American icon? I guess he's pretty darn close at this point, given all the, I don't know, people would say he was instrumental in deciding to go forward with the Iraq war.

8:45Yep. Which we're still talking about to this day. And maybe, guys, do you think neocon was sort of that was something that that word came about there? Of course, he's got some famous family members, obviously, as well. On the other side. But a true Wyoming person wore cowboy hats. And we all remember the unfortunate incident with the hunting incident as well. Yeah. Next on Squawk Pod, tomorrow the Supreme Court hears the Trump administration's oral arguments for use of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, or IEPA. It's a test of executive powers, and its implications will hit tariffs and far beyond that.

9:35Treasury Secretary Scott Besant will be there at the hearing, and he stands by the president's emergency measures. So there's a concept of a tipping point. What if someone had held up their hand, like many people did before the great financial crisis and said, we're heading for a calamity in the housing market. And if someone had exercised emergency powers, then we would not have had to go through 2008, 2009.

10:06This is Squawk Pod. Up and Andrew, Q. You're watching Squawk Box on CNBC. I'm Andrew Osorkin, along with Joe Kernan and Becky Quick on this. We'll call it a special transatlantic version of Squawk Box. Yeah, we've been talking, Andrew, off camera a little bit about Norway and what it's saying about Tesla right now. No, it's OK. They own a little over one percent. They're like they're in the top ten shareholders of Tesla. Their GDP in 2024, they're plugging away. I mean, it's$500 billion, which is one-sixtieth of the U.S. at$30 trillion. But it is a third of Tesla's market cap, their GDP. And they actually, in addition to crappy Netflix TV series, they do award the Nobel Peace Prize, while the other six prizes do come from Stockholm.

11:05home. So just a little background on coming from socialism land, which we're headed for. What about on a per person basis? GDP is not bad. It's not the U.S. That's I think 50 ,000 or thereabouts. And we're up at 60 or 70. It's supposedly a great flip. Beautiful scenery. Some of the most beautiful scenery on the planet is in Norway. And I'm not far be it from me to disparage a European country? I think Elsa and Anna may be from there as well. What I will say is Barron Capital, I misspoke before, Barron Capital has earned about$8 billion in profits, realized and unrealized, from their Tesla shares.

11:47And in terms of the ownership, he goes on to say that Musk entities now represent about 26 percent of the firm's $44 billion in assets under management, so about$11 billion worth of their assets under management. Ron Barron has been a longtime Tesla bull. He owned this. The only time I remember him selling any shares was when he said it was getting to be too big of a stake in their funds because it had grown and appreciated so much. So he sold some at some point. But at this point, Musk entities make up 26 percent of their$44 billion in assets. And there's, I mean, there are big firms, BlackRock, I think, and states, there are bigger, they're bigger than Norah.

12:27I don't know which way, I guess, when we hear how they're going to vote. Those are always the biggest donors, right? the conglomerates that have all the funds. Okay. Yeah.

12:38Treasury Secretary is joining us now. Scott Besson, how are you? Good to see you. Good morning, Joe. Good to see you. Let's talk tariffs, and since it's front and center for everyone with this beginning now at SCOTUS, you have said you're going and you want to be in the front row. I think your chances are good if you say that's where you'd like to sit. Look, Joe, I think it's a matter of national security. And this is one of the president's signature policies. And it'd be very unusual for the Supreme Court to overrule president's signature policy. The Supreme Court gave President Obama a lot of room on Obamacare.

13:19And President Trump's two signature policies have been securing the border, which has been an incredible success. And it has been the tariff policy rebalancing U.S. trade and its economic security. And we've had three emergencies here. The first emergency has been the fentanyl crisis, and the president was able to use IEPA to bring the Chinese to the table on the precursor chemicals. The second emergency was I think we were at a tipping point in terms of our trade deficits. We are bringing those down. The deficit with China is down 25 percent. We could have had a looming financial crisis. And then number three, the president, after the Chinese said that they were going to put export controls on rare earth minerals for the globe on October 8th, the president was able to use his IEPA emergency powers to threaten 100 percent tariffs, bring the Chinese to the table in Kuala Lumpur and Korea and get the rare earths to flow.

14:28And if that hadn't happened, that manufacturing facilities, not only the U.S., but around the world, would shut down. So, you know, this is an emergency power that he has used during emergencies. There might be compelling arguments on the other side, Mr. Secretary. And I like the journal kind of made me laugh today because in their lead op-ed, they said, few conservatives are more deferential, not to President Trump, but to presidential overseas authority than we are. They've stood in the way of a lot of things, I think, that the president has tried to do, obviously, although, you know, out of all the op ed pages, the friendliest probably has been the Wall Street Journal.

15:08But they point out that Article one vests Congress with authority. And that was the intent because of what happened with with taxation without representation, that it vests Congress with the authority to negotiate trade deals and to impose tariffs. tariffs. And it was like that until Smoot-Hawley in 1930 when they thought the president needed to be able to have that authority. But up until then, it had always been the purview of Congress to regulate tariff policy. Joe, but there are lots of other authorities, too. President has two 32 32 301s. Those are all from the executive branch. And again, you know, IEPA is an emergency authority, and we were in an emergency situation, and this is crucial for the U.S.

16:01economy. Do you think, Mr. Secretary, that the Supreme Court is so up-to-date on these stories? Here's where I'm going with this. A lot of people would probably say the trade imbalance has been there for a long time, and that all of a sudden it's an emergency. They would question that. I don't know what they'd say about fentanyl, but when you talk about rare earth metals and what that could do to the U.S. economy, that, I think, even SCOTUS, even Supreme Court might say, you know what? In this case, the emergency power is absolutely, you know, you could actually use that in that case and be totally justified.

16:46Do you think that they could look at it that way? Well, Joe, let's think about, and as you know, in economics, there's a concept of a tipping point. And, you know, I think that there's a point where you get to an emergency. What if someone had held up their hand, like many people did before the great financial crisis and said, we're heading for a calamity in the housing market? And if someone had exercised emergency powers, then we would not have had to go through 2008, 2009 and the aftermath and what it did to the American people. I'll just ask you one more thing, one more point the journal makes.

17:26If the court blesses this unlimited presidential tariff power, future presidents, i.e. Democrats, were going to do the same thing. An all too likely example would be a climate emergency. I could see this happening. They call it that all the time. A client emergency to tax imports of countries with high CO2 commissions. You can fill in the blanks for something that Democrats might do if this were upheld by the Supreme Court. Does that concern you at all about what the other party would do with this type of power? Look, if the president does need emergency power, and I would question whether there's a climate emergency.

18:11I've been hearing for years that there's an emergency. The planet's going to be on fire in five years, ten years. And the only thing that's happened with that is an excuse for my children not to do their homework because there's not going to be a planet. So, you know, it's all been proven wrong. Or not to have kids, I know. It's crazy. Beck. Mr. Secretary, thanks for being with us today. We're now in day 35 of this government shutdown, tied for the longest government shutdown ever. The Hill has just been reporting in the last couple of hours that some centrist Democrats are signaling to their Republican counterparts that they might be willing to cut a deal, that we could see an end to this coming soon.

18:50I think Susan Collins had kind of suggested maybe we see an end to this by the end of this week. But they're also saying, some of these centrist Democrats, that a red flag is that the president may not be serious about health care reform. Can you tell us what the administration's plan is on this front, what you're hearing about any of these talks, what you know? So, Becky, you know, I've called for five brave Democrats to come across the aisle. And, you know, what's changed since we got the Clean's continuing resolution in the spring? Two things. One, Senator Schumer's poll numbers, you know, he's sinking like a stone.

19:28So we're being held hostage to his poll numbers. And then two, the Democrats have tried to stop President Trump in the courts. It goes to SCOTUS. They get overruled. They've tried to stop President Trump in the mainstream media. That hasn't worked. So now they've shut down the government and they're harming the economy. So I think it would be great if five moderate Democrats became heroes, reopen the government. And for the entire shutdown, the entire shutdown, whether it's President Trump, Speaker Johnson or Leader Thune, they've said reopen the government and we can talk. We can have the conversation on health care, but we can't do it while the government's closed down.

20:10What should that conversation look like, Mr. Secretary? because it's also been pointed out, yeah, the subsidies were pandemic era subsidies. And, you know, you need those to keep some premiums from doubling for people. But the real thing is it's the Unaffordable Care Act. The premiums are going up because the cost is going up and there's no way to to provide Affordable Care Act services without numbers like that. Is there a plan? Because the president has talked about a plan for a long time and here we are. Joe, I'm not going to get into negotiations until the Democrats reopen the government. So, you know, I'm not going to preview it that reopen the government and then the talks can start.

20:58And, you know, the crazy thing is they kept talking about a November 21st deadline and we're getting there and they haven't reopened the government. So and we're starting to see this affect the economy. We're starting to see the airport delays and shutdowns. And I can tell you, the American people are going to blame the Democrats if the busiest travel day of the year, the day after Thanksgiving, is a disaster. People aren't able to be with their families. They should be ashamed. There's an election today in various places. Mr. Secretary, is the highest economic official in our country. And we're sitting in the capital capitalist center of the universe right here in New York City.

21:49And we might elect either a socialist if you talk to one person or if you talk to the president himself, a communist. What is your take on what's happening in New York City, how it could affect the country writ large? Well, Joe, New York is losing its status as the capital of capital. The United States is maintaining it. They're opening Yall Street down in Texas, and Wall Street jobs have been fleeing New York. What we saw during the pandemic was the greatest transfer of wealth in history from Manhattan County to Palm Beach County. And I can tell you that if you get Caracas on the Hudson, which it looks like the polls are saying you're going to get, you're going to see more people, more capital fleeing.

22:41So it's good for Connecticut real estate, good for Florida real estate. And nothing says that New York has to remain the financial capital. Secretary, we always get to some of the interesting water cooler type stuff. I guess Tesla and shareholders are going to decide on a pay package. The latest I've seen, and I loved your answer that you gave, was there was some kind of kerfuffle you had, not with Bill Pulte in this case, which we've asked you about in the past. This one involved Elon Musk, that you grabbed him by the collar or something. And your only response was that can't be true because he didn't have a collar.

23:22I think he has a scruff of his neck. Was there any grabbing of anything in that general area? Yeah. No, Joe, look, this is this is old news. And, you know, Jesse Waters has a great, great sense of humor. And Elon and I were very passionate about what needed to be done with government. He did a fantastic job in setting a trajectory for downsizing government, which we've continued spending is down over the past two quarters. We're going to keep it down. And what's gone unnoticed during the government shutdown is we actually had a smaller deficit for fiscal year 25 than we did for 24. It was small, but nonetheless, the deficit was smaller.

24:14And because the GDP went up, deficit to GDP went from 6.4 percent to 5.9. And I think we can continue bringing that down. You OK with that compensation package? And then I know Andrew has a question. Well, I think it's great that Elon's back in the private sector. He's one of the great entrepreneurs of the generation. That's up for the shareholders to decide. But the amount of value that he's created for his investors and for his shareholders is phenomenal. And it's across a range of industries. Mr. Secretary, I wanted to actually go back to the issue of New York and the prospect that Zoran Mondami could be the next mayor.

24:56The president made a comment during the 60 Minutes interview on Sunday that potentially the administration would or Washington writ large would send less money to New York as a result of that, in part because he said, you know, you don't you don't want a communist effectively in charge that would then misspend such money. How much discretion does the administration have in terms of its ability to turn on the spigot or turn off the spigot to a particular state? And in what areas? Well, I think it's on a lot of the large infrastructure, a lot of the large infrastructure spending. And Andrew, I think we can see that we have some discretion here in D.C., But the real discretion is people voting with their feet.

25:47You see these democratic states. New York has for years had net outbound migration. Illinois, net outbound migration. California, net outbound migration. So it seems like more money should go to the states that people are moving to. Mr. Secretary, if the Supreme Court were to go against the president on this, Are you confident that another route can can be found to continue with the with the policy and not get into the morass of trying to be I don't I don't even know how it would work if you had to start reversing some of the what we've seen with with the tariffs. Yeah, Joe, there are lots of other authorities that can be used, but IEPA is by far the cleanest, and it gives the U.S.

26:40and the president the most negotiating authority. And again, when we get something like October 8th, where the entire manufacturing ecosystem in the U.S. and the world was at threat of shutdown, then it's very important to be able to have these. The others are more cumbersome, but they can be effective less. It hinders the president's negotiating ability to be able to protect the American people and the American economy. So, you know, this is very important tomorrow. And SCOTUS is going to hear this. And again, this is a signature policy for the president. And traditionally, SCOTUS has been loath to interfere with these signature policies.

27:31I guess I'll just ask you one quick question on China. A lot of talk about what actually went on with NVIDIA chips and the Blackwell chips. Are you among the people in the administration that think that China should never get those highly advanced AI chips? Or is this saving something to negotiate the future with? Because it always seems like these are our stops along the way with these these negotiations with China. They're evolving and we continue to, you know, to deal with things and they continue to deal with things. Well, you know, if we think about the Blackwell now that they're the crown jewel that 18, 18, 12, 18 months ago, The H20s were so good, were the crown jewels.

28:24So, Joe, I think what you're describing is actually the pace that the technology is moving, not the pace that the negotiations are moving. So there may be a case down the road. I don't know whether it's 12 or 24 months. Given the incredible innovation that goes on at NVIDIA, where the Blackwell chips may be two, three, four down their chip stack in terms of efficacy. And at that point, they could be sold on. And it's your take, your contention that the China had a plan with these rare earth materials that this this was in the works. And whether President Trump had poked the bear in the first place to try to reset global trade with China, either way, that that would have been something that China was planning to use.