A comedian and corporate marketer walk into a startup with a 2000-year-old Roman sports drink

0:00Ed Stening: Founders, I know what's on your mind at stupid o 'clock. After failed attempts at counting funding rounds and doom scrolling, you've finally settled on something that will surely put you to sleep. Payroll and compliance. Don't let the boring stuff slow down your startup growth. Global HR and payroll platform DEAL, that's D-E-E-L, can handle all the complicated stuff around international payroll, compliance, visas and onboarding, so you can stay focused on building. Visit deal.com slash 360 to learn more today.

0:33Merrick Watts: I believe in one life, right? So for me, it's that moment of going, if I don't make this the best I fucking can, then why was I here in the first place?

0:48Ed Stening: Hello and welcome, Budji Gamma Wara from the Gadigal lands here in Sydney. I'm Simon Thompson and joined by the fabulous once again, forever.

0:58Merrick Watts: I'm Julie Trell.

0:59Ed Stening: The princess of playfulness. I'll take it. The queen of quips. The sage of insight.

1:08Merrick Watts: I'll take it. Yes.

1:09Ed Stening: And how's your week been? I know it was very funny last Thursday.

1:15Merrick Watts: Yep. Last Thursday, we had the auditions for Start of Stand Up.

1:18Ed Stening: Yes. Unfortunately, we couldn't go. We were doing an offsite. The whole team from private media came together, which was great, catching up with everyone from Melbourne. And we're up in our producer, Matt Jackson's homeland of the Blue Mountains. It was wonderful. Nice to get up in the morning and see the frost on the grass and go for some lovely bushwalks.

1:37Merrick Watts: Wish I was there. You needed a play officer. Yes, we have noted that.

1:42Ed Stening: We've put the feedback in.

1:43Merrick Watts: Fantastic. Well, these were closed auditions. There were 17 founders, operators in the startup world, VCs that came up and told there did a two, three minute set. Never been, never been done before. And what I loved about it is they all took the piss out of themselves and what startup world is like. So they told real stories that were quite funny that we could all relate to. And the fellow judges, we were amazing. We had Steve Grace from Nudge Creep, Mike Langford from Google, Kaz, who is the events producer and Merrick Watts.

2:17Ed Stening: Merrick Watts. Now funny you should mention that man because tell me julie who do we have as our guest on the show today we have merrick's

2:27Merrick Watts: co-founder ed stenning co-founder of osca drinks hydration soda fabulous drinks you're going to

2:35Ed Stening: hear some amazing stories about it i love what it says on the side because it's got the startup vibe with the og sports drink sports drink yeah a 2 000 plus year old recipe really and it was just

2:47Merrick Watts: great working with all of them and merrick gave some really great constructive feedback to these people in startup land getting up on stage and and telling jokes so and storytelling and storytelling exactly and so the show is october 14th at the comedy store get your tickets now they will sell out and it is a charity event as well it will be so any of the funds will be supporting Forever Projects.

3:13Ed Stening: Oh, fantastic. Yes. That's really good. Before we go any further, I do want to say that Startup360 is supported by Deal, Hire, Manage and Pay Anyone, Anywhere. I know Deal's been busy of late in the news, a bit of M &A activity on, but we really appreciate their support. Which leads me to the Deal spiel. I don't want to go on about too much this week, although this morning as we record, the results have just come out. for a little company you may have heard of called SpaceX. It did make someone a trillionaire briefly. Since then, the stock has come off around about 43%. So anyone who actually bought in at the IPO price has probably a little bit underwater at this point in time.

4:01Ed Stening: But it was very interesting, the results that came out, the first quarterly results since the IPO. So$541 million US loss. That's around about 768 million Australian. However, that's a massive improvement on this time last year when it was in excess of US$1 billion the loss for the quarter. The interesting part is that revenue jumped 90 % on 12 months ago to$7.8 billion for the group. And the interesting thing about the group, of course, is that Grok is now in there, Twitter's now in there. So there's a few other things bolstering the rocket ship company, which has been having a little bit of trouble of late with the Falcon Heavy rocket.

4:51Ed Stening: But it seems like Wall Street was happy with this. It was a beat on that front, especially they were expecting something worse. So we'll see how that all plays out for the former Trinidad Air, Elon, who, of course, keeps Elon-ing on his social media site. But interesting moment and some big quarterly reports coming out from US tech companies at the moment. So well worth having a look at those.

5:17Merrick Watts: And watch this space.

5:19Ed Stening: Watch this space.

5:21Merrick Watts: See what I did there?

5:22Ed Stening: Yes. That was so good. You should have been in startups now.

5:27Merrick Watts: Queen Equips.

5:27Ed Stening: Yes, Queen Equips. Well, I don't want to go on much more, but plenty to read on StartupDaddy.net. It is free, so when you get a chance, go and check it out. Plenty of news and, of course, all the back episodes of Startup360. Shall we take a quick break and then get Ed in to talk Posca and the OG Boardstring story?

5:51Merrick Watts: Let's do it.

5:52Ed Stening: Don't go away. We'll be right back.

5:54Merrick Watts: Founders scale faster on deal. Set up payroll for any business in minutes, hire anyone, anywhere and get visas handled fast so you can stay focused on scaling. Deal takes care of onboarding, HR, IT, EOR, benefits and compliance so your team can grow without borders. It's why more than 37 ,000 fast growing companies trust Deal to move fast. Visit deal.com slash 360. That's D-E-E-L dot com slash 360. Welcome back. And here today we have my friend and neighbour, Ed Stenning.

6:38Ed Stening: Neighbours.

6:39Merrick Watts: Neighbours.

6:40Ed Stening: Everyone needs good neighbours.

6:42Merrick Watts: The only neighbour I know is...

6:44Ed Stening: With nice, non-alcoholic, sparkling drinks.

6:46Merrick Watts: Is Mr. Rogers. See, I know Mr. Rogers' neighborhood. Since I didn't grow up here, I don't know neighbors' neighbors. So, yeah.

6:53Ed Stening: Well, this is kind of like the Mr. Rogers show. It is. But for founders.

6:56Merrick Watts: It is. It absolutely is. All right. So howdy, neighbor. Howdy, neighbor. We have Ed Stenning, who is the CEO and co-founder of Posca. And I will let him go in and tell some stories in what Posca is. It's a little different podcast today with a focus on CPG, Consumer Packaged Goods, or FMCG, Fast Moving Consumer Goods. Nailed it. With JT, ST,

7:21Ed Stening: and ES.

7:24Merrick Watts: And while it's not a technically tech startup, there is science behind this, and that's an important part of the story, what the product is. I really am going to focus on who Ed is because he's got an amazing story and journey, and I know, Simon, you're excited to talk about the actual product with such a palette that you have with your history.

7:43Ed Stening: See, I'm going into the Posca Yuzu at this point in time. Japanese citrus. I actually have a tree at home and I say to Ed, spiky bloody things and you get these nuddly little sort of citrus from it with lots of seeds in it. Yuzu is often used in flavourings with beef and there are various sauces that the Japanese make. It's yummy. Yummy. And I really like this. It's very good, Ed. I'm glad you like it. You can keep your job. The team have done an amazing job.

8:12Merrick Watts: I'm very proud of it. Open mine on air. Yes. ASMR. You've got to get the ASMR hit. Yes. So I'm with pineapple.

8:20Ed Stening: I'm thinking gin. This could go with gin.

8:22Merrick Watts: It's good with tequila. I had it the other night.

8:24Ed Stening: Oh, okay.

8:25Merrick Watts: A little too early for tequila or is it? Yeah. All right. So. I was very excited about this conversation, guys. Thank you. Ed, over to you. Tell us about how you landed, where you landed. Right. Right. Well, obviously being neighbors to you, you forced me to be on this show. But outside of that, how I got into Posca Hydrate. So we've, so it's now been in October, it'll be three years since I've been full time on Posca Hydrate. We've been in market for about a year and a half now, just a little bit over a year and a half. And how it all started to actually get to here was, you know, I was part of the line executive team over there.

9:08Merrick Watts: and Merrick Watts, who I'd actually done a bit of a TV, a bit of TV spots with him in the past, he rang up and said, look, I've got this crazy idea. I want to put it to line as a potential M &A. And I was like, that's cool. Great. And he goes, but I'm going to send you an NDA before you do anything. And I'm like, oh God. Anyway, he's very private about it. So we signed the NDA and, you know, got him in and went through the drink and he pulled out these strange little bottles wrapped in plastic and he told me this story about this was found on every street corner in ancient Rome 2 ,000 years ago and when he was researching wine, he brought it back to life.

9:44Merrick Watts: And it was the most fascinating story. And I was like, this is really cool. And then he talked about the hydration components and the gut health and the zero sugar. And for me straightaway I'm starting to see these trends and a lot of that. And basically he said, look, would Lyon be interested? He goes, look, I'm a comedian. I've made this amazing drink. I don't know how to operationalise this. would Lion be interested in getting behind it? So we took it away. We did a lot of research, you know, talked to obviously the innovation and M &A teams and all that type of stuff. And we landed at a point, it was like, look, it's not really the right fit for Lion at the time.

10:17Merrick Watts: So, you know, I was the guy who had to say no to Merrick Watts, which if you've known Merrick, that's actually very hard to do. I said, no, look, it doesn't fit Lion, but mate, you're onto something here. Here's a few pointers. I would go and do this and then you go. About nine months later, I get a call up from him, never expecting to hear from him ever again. Right. And he's like, mate, I've done everything you told me to do. I said, okay, cool. I was like, great. And he goes, well, and now I need you to quit your fancy job and come work with me. And I was like, mate, it's not that fancy, but sure.

10:48Merrick Watts: No, which my actual first answer. It was because, you know, I started going, look, this is jumping into being a startup is really, you know, all those things everyone talks about, but this just bug inside me kept playing over and over again and I got to the point you know I'm mid 40s now and I thought shit if I don't do this I will never do this and also knowing that this product and we'll talk about a bit later but what the trends it's hitting what the opportunity here is is this is such an incredible opportunity I will regret this for the rest of my life so jumped in the last three years been been working with Merrick in the trenches every day and mate, it's been something.

11:27Merrick Watts: Is it funny? Okay, so the only time Merrick is funny is when we're in meetings with other people. Oh, okay. Merrick is that comedian who is, he's very serious and he's very focused and very structured. And I make jokes like, could you make funny jokes when it's just you and me? And he goes, no. Like, he's just, he's like, you know, they talk about the dark side of the comedian. He's highly intelligent. He's very focused. So everything, every conversation we have is very, very serious. So the funny side only happens when, say, we were in a show like this. So I get starved of his humour, sadly.

12:04Ed Stening: I reckon it's all material and he's just doing the serious and just banking it away. So there's going to be a whole show on Eid that's going to go on national tour.

12:13Merrick Watts: Yeah, I'm worried about Mez's memoirs, I have to say. There is going to be like this new office, you know, model. Anyway.

12:21Ed Stening: But it's fascinating because there's a couple of things that have come in trends. One, of course, is a generational shift in alcohol consumption with younger people not drinking. We've seen the rise in start-ups of alcohol-like drinks that are zero alcohol, whether it's the liars people with what they've done in the spirits category or various wineries now all make zero alcohol wines. But then the other thing that got interesting was vinegars. Everyone sort of suddenly got into apple vinegar and that thing of gut health became part of consumption as well. So let's drill back into the original Posca and what was going on there because the Romans and the Greeks together came up with the idea of fermenting grapes.

13:13Of course, we all know bad wine can taste like vinegar

13:16Ed Stening: and that's basically a vinegar is a well-made style of wine but it has a very specific role to play. So I had that idea of putting those two things together was kind of wild but also completely on trend for what's been happening.

13:34Merrick Watts: And that's one of the great parts about this, right? Yes, functional beverages are booming but having a functional beverage with a real story, this is a 2 ,000-year-old story. So for the folks who don't know, because you're a foodie nerd, you've obviously, this is your world. And you're a storyteller. This was on every street corner in ancient Rome 2 ,000 years ago. It was found all the way through Greece. It was found all the way through Persia, and Persia was referred to as Fusca. There was even versions of this found in Japan, right, using rice wine vinegar. So basically the vinegar was used to purify the water sources before there was running waters.

14:09Merrick Watts: So this was literally the focus. So if you look at something like Gladiator 2, of the movie where Pascal was drinking out of a ladle, that was 100 % Posca, right? So this was found ubiquitously all the way through the region. Emperor Hadrian. Have you apprised Russell Crowe at this point in time to be a brand ambassador for Posca? Well, you know, in the very early days I said to Mez, mate, we've got to get Russell. And he said, he's like, mate, he would just yell at me all the time. I don't know where that goes. But anyway, it was, you know, Emperor Hadrian used this to actually conquer Europe because actually most people would die from bad water sources on the march rather than spears through their chest, right?

14:45Merrick Watts: So this was obviously really important. Logistics. Yeah, and Emperor Hadrian used to drink it in solidarity with his troops and also he forced his soldiers to drink wine on one day and Posca every second day. So it was a way of actually keeping his troops sharp, right? So it would be interesting in all of this space. What ultimately happened was running water came in and the rich got running water first and then it went through and Posca became the drink of the plebs. and this is back in the day when actually being associated with the plebs wasn't a win and, you know, ultimately Posca just disappeared from that until Merrick was, you know, digging through and he was actually writing for his show Idiot's Guide for Wine.

15:26Merrick Watts: Have you been to that yet? No, I haven't. You've got to go. Volume 3 now is running. Oh, great. He's actually just syndicated it around the world. So there's actually Merrick's all around the world now doing his show. It's a phenomenal show. He's kind of like the wiggle for wine. I'm going to let you run with that one.

15:46Merrick Watts: But, yeah, so he basically was researching for the wine. He found this story and someone referred to it as Roman Gatorade in one of these sort of random sort of Reddit streams that he gets into, right? And, yeah, and that's kind of where it ticked into. That is wild. I love the story. I love the story. When we were pitching, so one of the first board members we pitched for was a guy called Adam Ferrier, who's the founder of Thinkabell. Brilliant man. right yeah great love the guy and um merrick and i were pitching him and we told him you know we told him the story and he says boys look i've got to be honest i get pictures all the time he's like honestly i just there's you know i'm full blah blah blah but he's like this story he goes i've spent the last 30 years of my career making stuff up this actually is a real story yeah and he was like so i'm i'm in and i was really proud at this moment i went well i've actually brought you some samples we've just done a test patch and would you like to taste it and he goes no and I was like no no it's really good because I don't care what it tastes like because I absolutely do not care it doesn't matter have you tasted Red Bull it tastes like shit uh you know I don't care what this tastes like this is just a brilliant story I want to make it happen um now just the point I actually don't think that's very bad so from then he was our first guy behind it and um and and really pushed us and and I think he's inspired us a lot to really lean into that story as as much as we can.

17:07Merrick Watts: Fantastic. So I love the story, how he came to you. You said, no, he came back. He persevered. He came back. So how are you working together? What are you both doing that you couldn't have done alone? You know, from your marketing background, from his, I mean, I leave, it sounds like he leaves his comedy to the side, but the storytelling, there's a science behind it. I heard you tell the whole science behind this, the end of the science innovation. So how are you working together? What is it that you, how you compliment each other? It's good. So like Like all of Merrick's strengths are none of mine, right?

17:38Merrick Watts: Name them. Name them. Well, he's funny. That's the first part. He'll tell everyone that. I thought you were going to say he's serious. Yeah. But look, he understands how to work with media. He understands how to do true storytelling, right? He also understands, you know, the smaller parts of making something larger, right? He talks about the difference when he's doing a show, the difference between being funny and having humor, right? And he really separates those two. And I think that comes into a lot of our content and structure. I think if you look at Mez's background, he was doing one of the first employees at Nova, Triple J and all this kind of stuff.

18:17Merrick Watts: He was doing content before content had a name, right? So every morning they'd go, okay, we're going to fill this show for three hours. What the hell are we going to talk about? And so he was actually just an early stage content guy. And I think a lot of that he brings into the business. So we're very much that yin and the yang, right? So my background, I do the boring operational stuff. You know, I do the Excel spreadsheets. You know, I run the sort of the more of the CEO side of the business. He plays a very good front to the business. He's heavily involved in the liquid considering he made it in his kitchen bench and obviously very strong within the content and that.

18:52Merrick Watts: So as co-founders, it's really important. And I think just as a side and listening to a few, particularly a lot of your podcasts recently, you know, I feel sorry for founders, right, who don't have a co-founder. I generally think that's a – It's tough. Like this is a really hard – right? You're allowed to say, fuck him, hard. It's a very hard job. And I think doing that alone, I go, you know, hats off to people who do this by themselves because there's no way a staff member who you pay is always going to be as clear and frank and direct with you as a co-founder will be, which is good. Well, I want to say something.

19:29Merrick Watts: And so I took a little page from Amy Poehler's Good Hang to do some background, get some comments from people who know you in your life. And Merrick said about you that you are an eternal optimist, that you see everyone that you meet as an opportunity for a relationship, and that you have incredible faith in others. So I love what you said about co-founders. I think that's very important. And he feels as highly about you. Oh, it's nice. For him. This feels like days of our lives. I love this. Days of our lives. And I feel that too. You know, I love being around you. You're excited about the product.

20:02Merrick Watts: Your stories are great. It makes for a great founder and to sell these stories so people will want to drink it. And I love it. I've reached out to you several times.

20:10Ed Stening: So I want to ask you, with your marketing brain on, because it's something we've been focusing on in Startup Daily quite recently, a lot about storytelling, you know. And Matt Jones is coming on as a guest in a couple of weeks to talk about storytelling. It's something he's very focused on with story work. And I've done some other pieces from people about what it means to have a great story as a founder and how you have to do it and the different types of stories that you can have as a founder. How important is that to the emotional connection, picking up on the Red Bulls there? Red Bull, no one actually, their brains I'm sure lock out the taste of Red Bull.

20:51Ed Stening: but the brand association is a whole bunch of other things, you know, whether it's diving off a mountain in a wingsuit or, you know, crazy planes at low altitude, fast cars, there's a sense that this is speed and excitement and that's what the brand represents. But that's built in a side storytelling thing. Sometimes the brand, and if you think about Apple, you know, and how intrinsic Steve Jobs is to that story, the founder story becomes part of the emotional connection with the product. Talk a little bit about that.

21:28Merrick Watts: Look, it's a good point. I think when we look at Red Bull, the story behind Red Bull is very exciting, right? It is basically the pharmacist making truck jack-up juice, right, in Thailand and the crazy Austrian guy goes and meets it. It's kind of got a whole Breaking Bad vibe with Walter. It really does, right? But, you know, there's that moment of the two people coming together, you know if you saw the original tie cans are small and squatty and gold and he you know he said no this has got to be and he brought it to sort of the western world um and then they thought okay what's this about this is about pushing pushing new heights um i think also what red bull have done incredibly well and this is this is a really important part of it and i don't want to take away from storytelling but the liquid the liquid matters the liquid has to be differentiated it has to taste different it has to give something different than other people do and red bull did that so i see posca very much similar to the red bull to the lafroigs to the guinnesses of the worlds where we're offering something quite unique to the world we taste different than other things and that's a good thing right we're not fighting that me too world and that's that's a very strong play into longevity there's taste and there's health part of it too yeah so it's beyond the marketing the branding in the health exactly and that's and that was always one of the things merrick spoke about at the beginning right he'll talk about this moment where when he was coaching kids afls all the time there's a bunch of kids who couldn't have gatorade in it because it had sugar and colors and all this kind of crap in it and he's like as a father and and a wife who's incredibly healthy went i'm going to make something that tastes good and is good for you right and that sounds very cliche because a lot of people say that this is literally that and we've got obviously you know we've ensured that that can deliver against it but coming back to your question on i think where um you know the story fits into it and how it helps with with communicating is that we have to separate ourselves and we have to separate ourselves in liquid and in story and having things like the ancient roman hydration story is very very important obviously having merrick as a face people relate to him it helps it helps it helps the door open it helps the first conversation right and then it's our job to make sure that okay i like merrick i like the story i like this i'm going to taste it then it's our job to make sure that's freaking incredible right like That's a key part of it.

23:43Merrick Watts: So I think there's steps into that and storytelling is a key way of getting people interested in this, right? And Merrick's an incredible storyteller.

23:51Ed Stening: So would you frame it from a start-up point of view? It's the intention to try the product is what the storytelling brings, that permission to engage with it in the first place, especially in a crowded category where there are so many choices. Why pick this one out of all the options? It's the story that gets people to do that.

24:11Merrick Watts: Yeah, like if we look at like Lord Byron's work, right, like it's, you know, mental and physical availability, right? So you have to first be salient in the consumer's mind. And then you have to be available, right? And doing those things on a startup budget is quite difficult. So how do you ensure you inject your story into the mental capacity of the human, right? And make sure that the product is salient, interesting in that so someone's got a chance to pick it up. the next step is making sure that it's actually in front of them right and that's another really hard part as a startup to make sure that the product is when the consumer's you know ready to to take it so yeah so i think there's there's there's two parts you can't just get a kardashian to wave it around well i'm the kardashian with your product marketing yeah so that is that is royal roman purple that color i love this hat and um so you're talking about the face in front of the brand and the brand itself and you've been really diligent about bringing it to startup events and tasting it and the storytelling behind it but there's also the people behind the brand behind behind you yeah so like me reaching out to merrick i reached out to camilla your wife

25:15Ed Stening: um just to hear what she had to say but not quite yeah yeah oh this she said infallible as well

25:24Merrick Watts: we actually have a jesus story as well we'll tell that great so living with edson's pasca means we are all living a pasca life this is my wife this is your wife he is never not in pasca land And even when he sleeps, he's still dreaming Posca. Great story. What I love is that he's always so positive, resonated what Merrick said. And in every downturn, he always sees a way up. So we will get to the flirtings and those stories. I love how he's brought us all on the journey, gets us involved so we are part of the story. If it's asking the kids and I about new can designs, flavors, getting their friends to try it, which I was one of those.

25:57Merrick Watts: So thank you. I enjoyed going through the marketing conversation. You're the best. Thank you. This is what I love, being a classroom teacher and seeing kids, the entrepreneur, that you get the kids on stage at events, like the good food show, triathlons, sponsoring their school events or even taking them on deliveries. So that's real education, dipping their toes into seeing what you're doing. And it's hard work in how to be an entrepreneur, but what it takes to succeed. That's nice. Yeah. So how is it being in the family life? and tell me I'm useless at any point of that. So that was nice of her.

26:34Merrick Watts: Yeah, great. Yeah. But that family life, being an entrepreneur and stepping away from a big company, you know, the GM at Lyon into this, it changes things. But it sounds like you bring your positive energy everywhere. Oh, look, I like what Camilla said there. I have to say that's been one of the joys for me as well is taking the kids, my journey from entrepreneur to entrepreneur and taking the kids on that path, right? Like all I want them is to know that, you know, there's the old saying of hard, you know, good luck is the intersection between hard work and opportunity, right? Like that's a real focus for me and I want them to see that.

27:14Merrick Watts: And, you know, and I don't like have to beg, like the Good Food and Wine show, I was like, hey, look, guys, we've got to do Saturday, Sunday. We're actually short staff. Do you, Tilly, you know, do you mind doing Sunday? Harry, can you do Saturday? He's 12, she's 14. And they're like, sure, innit? And they smashed it. Right. And they just get into it. And I think as a, as a father just going, I want them to know the value of hard work and I want them to see that, you know, whatever happens, the ups and downs, and this is really scary and they hear all the tough conversations at home to know that, okay, you know, how do we, how do we prevail?

27:44Merrick Watts: And, um, you know, I think that's for me being a really good journey. Plus they love driving in the van. I'll be honest. Like it's actually the van that they love the most. Which I see parked all around the neighborhood. It's fun. I smile when I see it. Yeah. Yeah. I do park it pretty much outside. So, yeah, that's great having both a co-founder, a very supportive co-founder and a supportive, fun, engaged family. That's great. That's nice.

28:04Ed Stening: Thank you, Camilla. I want to keep digging into the family side of it because it's part of what we explore in this show. So you were talking just then about seeing the hard work, the understandings. What comes out of the mouth of the babes from these conversations? Are they questions that they're asking and saying, Dad, about what's going on?

28:24Merrick Watts: Yeah, look, they don't. they don't hide their thoughts, right? So, you know.

28:30Ed Stening: You get some pretty honest feedback.

28:31Merrick Watts: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, my favourite at the moment is like, you know, when I say something at the dinner table to Matilda, you know, something about she'll ask money for a spriggy or whatever. And I'll be like, come on, Tilly, we're not, you know, made of money. And he goes, oh, sorry, I'll ask the person who earns money at this table and look at Camilla, right? And I'm like, oh, this is like, so they constantly remind me that, you know, we are obviously making a constant sacrifice on this journey, which I think is their passive aggressiveness, which I'm not sure where they get that from.

29:06Merrick Watts: But, you know, look, it is, yeah, look, I think it is good. The other part to that is that, you know, they like, you know, come home for a bad day and stuff. I do try and make sure they understand if I'm having a conversation the the the reason why this has happened versus that side of things like I think as kids even if they decide to do music or arts or whatever they want to do in the future I think whatever path they choose on understanding a little bit about business is really important so you know I think that's been a part so um yeah I don't know if I've answered your question properly Simon at all.

29:38Ed Stening: Oh look I just think it's that relationship with children and being a founder, which can take a lot of time away. It comes at an opportunity cost for family on occasion. And if you can find ways to engage with them and let's just say encourage the next generation of entrepreneurs along the way. I mean the fact that they get to get up on stage and sort of be part of the experience.

30:01Merrick Watts: And like we're doing new can design work at the moment, right? And they've been in every step of the way, right? And I literally do test with them, right? And get their thoughts because they will be brutal. And then when they start seeing it in the sample version, you can see them touch and see that come to life. And I actually think my childhood, I had none of that. I didn't have any exposure to those kind of things. So they're actually starting to jump ahead already of me in terms of my learnings and everything else because they've been able to be exposed to that business in that way. So yeah, look, I love it.

30:37Merrick Watts: My son's like, you know, right now, again, I'll let them choose whatever career they want to do, but he wants to do this thing where he wants to be a shoe designer. I'm like, cool, go for it, dude. And he can see the process that we're going through and he's understanding how that model works. And that might turn him off one day, but right now it's actually inspiring him.

30:55Ed Stening: Are you encouraging him around sort of cowboy boots to feed his dad's passion?

30:59Merrick Watts: You know, there is a strong push in that direction because one of the great things about cowboy boots and I've worn them all my life and I have a very ridiculous amount, I would have more if Camilla would let me, is that they always come back in trend. So I am constantly in and out of trend at the moment, Simon, which is great. Where's the cycle at the moment? So we're sitting, right now we're just coming off trend. Oh, okay. Sorry, we're just coming out of trend.

31:26Ed Stening: So you're in the autumn of your boots at the moment.

31:29Merrick Watts: I'm in the autumn of our boots at the moment, but you know what, I don't care. This is what I wear. I wear the same thing every day. I don't care. But, yeah, no, I'm building quite a collection. And I used to have these things with Camilla. It was the only way I could convince her was to say, okay, once I get promoted or I get a good bonus, I get a new pair of cowboy boots, right? The last three years have been a little bit tough to justify that as an expense. But, yeah, no, so I'm running at about 13 pairs at the moment. I would be at about 85 if I was allowed to. I think it's fantastic. Anyway.

32:01Merrick Watts: Awesome. Love the boots. They are great. We need to make sure that there's a shot at the boobs. These are actually my conservative ones. I've tried to keep, I was trying to make it very, you know, a favor of the podcast. Well, I would love to ask, come to the Flearnings part of the podcast, the learnings from failures or fuck ups. I know that's a big word. And there's also one of the stories that you had to pivot at some point. And I know that you have some other Flearnings tucked away. So what is a Flearning at the top of list that you can share that other founders or people that are watching can learn from?

32:35Merrick Watts: Look, we're still early in our journey, right? So we are 18 months in, right? So there's plenty more Flernings ahead of us, I think, Julie. So I think that's, you know, I'm not the guy who's sold his business and he's now sitting there and, you know, figuring all those things out. I'm not that guy yet, right? So I'm fully aware that there's a lot more Flernings to come. A couple of things for us, you know, one we talked about before around vinegar, et cetera, we use red wine vinegar. And, you know, as most Australians understand, red wine has a high level of antioxidants, apple cider versus apple cider vinegar, et cetera.

33:10Merrick Watts: In fact, actually, red wine vinegar is five times the antioxidants as apple cider vinegar. So people are having a shot of apple cider vinegar in the morning. Have this, much better, much better for your skin. It also has resveratrol in it. It's good for your liver. So if you like the occasional beverage, this is also the good return. um so we went out with red wine vinegar on the cans um i had a team member who was very vocal about this and said i think you should call it red grape vinegar i was like nah nah nah we're good he was right really right you know i think this has been one of our biggest issues is like even though people use red wine vinegar at home they're like i can't give that to my kids i'm like we use a halal version of red wine vinegar oh wow okay there is zero like sorry zero alcohol like not even like not even near alcohol right um but we've hit a bit of wall there that was a flirting for us right and you know i probably should have i sorry i probably i should have listened to my teammate uh and should have gone with red grape vinegar but in my head like you probably as a foodie i'm like yeah but people get red wine but then i'm like yeah but what part of the communities have we cut off by putting the word wine on on the label right so that was probably you know a bit of an error definitely an error the second one is is that we probably overthought our creativity on this right so we you see on these these cans it says the og sports drink yes i did like that the original exactly um so the original gangster sports drink and it's kind of a bit of a push to gatorade to say yes you guys might have created this with the florida gators um but 2 000 years ago this is what the real athletes were drinking sparta there we go the odyssey's running well with you at the moment is it um so so yeah so we um so we went with that and you know the biggest problem we had was that people just didn't get it right so there's two parts of the challenge we have is the first one we're in a can so consumers straight away we're not in a plastic bottle and merrick and i made it 2024 we said there's no effing way we are making a plastic product now right so we stuck to our guns and and put to the can challenge number one because consumers followed category components, right?

35:18Merrick Watts: And not in a plastic bottle, sports drink, brain explosion, move to the next thing. So that's problem number one. Second problem is - Wow, there's a cognitive dissonance around the idea

35:30Ed Stening: that a sports drink is in a plastic bottle.

35:32Merrick Watts: 100%. 100%. And this is where like you've got to make it easy for the consumer and that's probably been our challenge. So calling ourselves the OG sports drink in a can and we're bubbly because sports drinks aren't bubbly, can't compute. computer says no i'm moving to the next thing so we probably made it harder for ourselves and we didn't communicate that effectively so now we sort of we're taking that massive learning learning and gone let's reposition uh and we've repositioned this now as a hydration soda so it's hydration soda with gut health and that's very much we just want to bang that home so all of our new packaging all of our new design work will be hitting into that you know would i have loved to find that learning out about learning a year and a half ago a hundred percent you know what this is also the journey you go on and i think for us you know this australia has always been the major test market australian consumers are brilliant we're absolute assholes we've got money we tell people what they think you know i mean like this is a very this is a really tough market to survive in and i think for us as we start to push to global ambitions this has been a great market to take those learnings and pull them into the product so yeah yeah i just what i'm loving about this is how much you are focused on your customers and what they like and testing it.

36:43Merrick Watts: You don't hear enough of that. I haven't heard enough of that in startup land in the tech. And I'm building this because I know it. I love it. So thank you for sharing those stories. Well, thanks.

36:54Ed Stening: I want to ask about, you talked about the entrepreneur entrepreneur aspect before. Do you think there's a case to be made for would-be founders to go off and work in a large corporate or a big company and get that experience and understanding, are there things that can apply? Because we're also in a period now where we see large companies thinking about how they can be innovative, turning around and looking for the startup thing and saying, how can we get more of that startup mindset?

37:22Merrick Watts: Yeah.

37:23Ed Stening: Talk about the backwards and forwards in your brain from running a company like Lion Nathan and running a startup.

37:32Merrick Watts: yeah look i think um i think it also come i think there's a there's there's a misnomer that corporate people are uh are fat and slow i think that's just this constant that if you're in a corporate you're not entrepreneurial you're you're not working 14 hours 18 hours a day you're not all this right and i think there's a bit of a startup lie in that right like you know i think in my corporate days i was a hard worker right my boss uh at line at the time who's now just become a ceo she does 16 hours a day she butts guts right so I think there's they're reading board packs at 10 11 p.m exactly exactly so I think there's this strange misnomer that people in the startup world think that corporate people are lazy they're not right there is obviously always lazy people in startup world right um and I think that's a that's that's a part so um for me personally I always saw myself I always thought myself as a bit of an intrapreneur right like I've always been very much trying to focus you know coming from a strong marketing background working a lot in digital and all that kind of stuff you know I was in that space I was also in the part of my career particularly in sort of between 2010 2016 where every corporate had to have an innovation lab because basically every corporate said oh my god we don't know how to innovate we don't know how to be entrepreneurial so we're going to get these bunch of startup people bring them in And I think that's also where there was some challenges, as we've all seen, is that those little innovation labs couldn't actually communicate and hand off to the corporate, right?

39:03Merrick Watts: So finding people who can actually live between both those worlds is really important in the organization. So from my perspective, coming from a corporate world to a startup world, you know, I think still my work ethic's the same. What I focus on is very much of the same. it's just you've got to juggle a lot more plates as a startup person and again that's a cliche everyone talks about it there's more to do because you're wearing lots and lots of hats but I think at the same time in the corporate world you know it's also very complicated because you've got so many stakeholders in the journey right you have to be able to convince people this is the right decision you have to go through your line manager the board you know or you know that project team or whatever it is.

39:45Merrick Watts: So there's a lot of negotiation that happens in that corporate structure, which actually I think are skill sets that are actually good to bring into the entrepreneurial world, right? So when I think about, you know, your question when you say, is it good for a startup person to jump into corporate or corporate and vice versa? I say 100 % yes because ultimately if you're in a startup land and you're trying to build something for a corporate to one day purchase or will you be a customer of or then be a customer of you, sorry? then you've got to understand them, right? Like the whole, say you've got to walk 100 miles in somebody's shoes to understand them, blah, blah, blah.

40:19Merrick Watts: Cowboy birds. Yeah, exactly. That's really important and I think that definitely gets lost. There shouldn't be a wall between the two. I think there needs to be a focus where, you know, I think corporates need to get more entrepreneurial and entrepreneurial groups need to understand corporates more because they need each other to survive. We have built this business for one day, hopefully, you know, that we have built it so it's so delicious to a corporate that they go we would love to buy you one day but what they're going to do is they're going to look under the hood and they're going to go are you kosher have you you know what does your paperwork look like what's your auditing system look like what's your QA policy all those kind of things you have to get right now a lot of a lot of those startup particularly in the beverage and the alcohol world is they haven't started like that they haven't started with the end in mind it's like yeah I like making rum.

41:11Merrick Watts: And off we go. In my kitchen. In my kitchen. And off we go. I think we've really worked hard to try and make sure we're building those blocks to make sure that we're, you know, we can fit into a corporate. Because I think that's also the other part is one day, if we are very lucky, right, and we are purchased by a large corporate, that corporate is going to want us to make sure we integrate this brand into their portfolio. And that's also key, because I think we see so many times and the list is long and I'm not going to start with them because everyone knows who they are. The list is long where they've been bought for a fortune.

41:44Merrick Watts: They've been integrated into a corporate and then the product's just died. Now, as the co-founder of this, that means my legacy has died. That means all the work, sweat, tears, the pain my family have gone through and everything else is dead. Yes, I got a, you know, I might've got a lovely paycheck, but the brand is dead because you haven't been able to figure out how to hand that product over. And I think that's where a lot of focus has to happen between the two sides to get better. It feels like you have just re-engineered or turned inside out that whole innovation, corporate innovation, corporate accelerator program because you nailed it.

42:17Merrick Watts: It's usually only one directional. Here's the big corporate. We're going to get some startups and we'll do what we can and blah, blah, blah. But there was the status between the two of them. And I think you're onto something there in terms of corporate innovation. So that marriage can happen in a healthy way where no one gets killed. Yeah, exactly. But we just want the product to be successful. This is a big part of Merrick's push as well. Like this is a big part of his legacy as well. You know, he wants to be known for more than just being the comedian, right? Now, let's be honest, a fairly world-famous comedian is not a bad thing to have on your CV, but he wants to be a multidimensional human, all right?

42:53Merrick Watts: And this is really important for him as it is for me.

42:57Ed Stening: What's the joy of startup life?

42:59Merrick Watts: Yeah.

42:59Ed Stening: What's the bit that you really get off on?

43:03Merrick Watts: Oh. Oh, it might be a bit sick, this response, but I think the one thing I've learned quite a lot in this journey is how the human brain responds to problems, right? Like, you know, right now, if we had to sort of hypothesize, okay, this is going to happen with this customer, you know, this is the ways we could play it, right? Actually, I found in this journey, when we've been punched in the face, actually how quickly the human brain finds the opportunities it needs to find to get through that challenge, right? And I think sometimes war rooming and all that doesn't work. The thing I've been probably excited about is going, holy shit, that's actually a really good idea.

43:46Merrick Watts: And we just come up with it then, right? How do we pivot quickly in times of absolute distress? And don't get me wrong, that's not super enjoyable. Hence why I said it's a little bit sick. But actually there's very something rewarding going, oh, no, actually I'm not bad at this. You know what I mean? I think I can do this because we've been able to pivot and find that solution. That's one thing. I think back to the kids' stuff, right, like hearing my kids, you know, push Posca to somebody in just perfect language and be really proud to do it. I think that's really important. Yeah, I think those would be my two.

44:22Ed Stening: Love it. Love it. In that context with the human brain, do you see AI having a role in that? If I never would have wanted to do this job without AI.

44:34Merrick Watts: Really? I like, I have to say it is such a saviour. One good thing is beverages will not be replaced by AI. So that's a good thing. Right? So, you know, I try and tell all investors that, you know, tech's really cool but, you know, beverages are not going anywhere.

44:52Ed Stening: Have you thought about, you could do data set of hydration, you know, need to keep all those GPUs cool. I like that. Posca for data centers. There you go.

45:00Merrick Watts: There you go. Is that a freebie? I'll take that. I'll take that. You know, so I've just lost. Give me the question again. I'm sorry. Now I'm on data center. You were using it. Quite seriously, like, you know, you've got to do your taxes. You've got to figure this out. You've got to figure out how to export products to the United States, right? Like I can get information so quickly now, you know, writing board papers, support around that, you know, asking questions. Like it is so important for us as a startup to have, you know, a good AI background. It is, I just would not have wanted to do this 10 years ago.

45:35Merrick Watts: I think for those founders who have gone through that process without AI, just because this stuff, I don't know, right? Like, you know, and that's the part where I'm like.

45:44Ed Stening: Used for YouTube videos, remember?

45:46Merrick Watts: Well, yeah, University of YouTube. Yeah. But before YouTube, imagine doing a startup then without YouTube. And some were creating a Britannica. Yeah. Wow, yeah. The CD Rams of, yeah. Exactly. Cart and cart. So, yeah, look, I think for us as founders in 2026, this is a great time because we can move so quickly in what we're doing because of AI. And we give much better customer support as well, right? Like we really are trying to, you know, every time a consumer emails us, we always try and make a response. Most of the time I respond. But AI helps me in crafting those, you know, making sure it's getting out on time and we're hitting that.

46:22Merrick Watts: So it might not be writing the email, but it's reminding me, hey, you've got these three emails from a consumer. Can you please make sure those are prioritized? That stuff's amazing because I can't afford an assistant. That's the EA thing, yeah. Yeah, I can't afford an assistant. All right, another game I would like to play. It's a game called Remember the Future. So let's pretend we're 18 months from today. You're back on the podcast. Speaking in the future of 18 months from 20, what's today? August 2026.

46:51Ed Stening: Yeah.

46:52Merrick Watts: 18 months from now, what is POSCA like? What are you doing? And speak in the present moment. Okay. Storyteller. That's a cool question. No, that's actually quite easy. Assuming we don't completely cock this up, right? In the present moment. We are here in 2028. So it would be very clear. We would have. No, we are. Sorry. Sorry. Thank you very much. Thank you, teacher. um we've uh been in the united states now for for several months we've been able to secure um southern california and central texas is our key areas our celebrities person next person y um are doing a great job name them now let's name them no no because they literally are okay would be okay breaking stuff um so we're very happy about that you'll put a tear in the space time continue yeah yeah exactly don't want to do that exactly so we've set up very well in the united States.

47:44Merrick Watts: We're slowly now having conversations nationally with groups like, you know, Kroger and Target and stuff like that. People are excited. They're jazzed. They see where this fits in their life, right? They see this as a multi-occasion beverage. You know, we got an energetic team, team buzzed. We're making shit happen. We're getting in random places and we're winning things that, you know, you wouldn't expect to go, right? We're sponsoring ex-sports team in random spaces that no one thought of. Um, you know, Merrick's on this massive podcasting, you know, uh, trail run, like the Joe Rogans of the world and all that kind of stuff, telling the story of Posca through the United States is where, you know, slugging away and trying to build the brand, um, and really preparing for hopefully one day someone, you know, hopefully one of my ex employers comes and knocks on the door and says, Hey, um, we'd love to talk to you.

48:35Merrick Watts: Well, I have to say, I loved your ad in the Superbowl. It was one of my favorites because I watch the Super Bowl for the ads and Posca was one of my favorites. And that phrase is just going to be the meme of the elixir. Awesome. The elixir to fix you was a very good line. I'm glad that worked. Thank you. I didn't think the Americans would get fix you. They kind of, you know, they do love a bit of Aussie. Right.

48:54Ed Stening: Yep. And, of course, Christopher Nolan's new version of Iliad has Matt Damon drinking Posca. Well, exactly. There you go.

49:01Merrick Watts: Exactly. Exactly. No, I'm with that. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. Thank you for playing that. There's actually science behind it because you're not trying to figure out how we got there, you got there. Yeah. And the brain just, when I have done this because I have needed this myself, I just feel more relaxed, this is cool. And then when you have other people playing in that story with you. No, I love it. Yeah, so play with your kids. I invite everyone to play that game. I know, I love it. But like that's real for me. And I think for me it is very much about understanding the vision, what are you trying to do, and then work backwards from that, right?

49:36Merrick Watts: You know, I think that's a big part that motivates me every day. Be in it. Thanks.

49:41Ed Stening: So going back to corporate life and being a co-founder, what would your advice be to others who have a great idea and need to find a partner to do it with? What should they be looking for? How should they be thinking about it? Is a mate they've known for ages? What are the things that are going to make this partnership successful?

50:01Merrick Watts: Yeah. Let me start with the idea first. First, the idea is make sure it is a good idea, right? Like I think that's really important. How do you know? Well, the first part is if there's multiple headwinds, don't do it, right? I think that's a key part. It doesn't matter how good you are. If the category has headwinds, you're going to be facing challenges. So really focus on where the tailwinds are, right? And I think that's really important. So for me, hydration, gut health, zero sugar, tailwind, tailwind, tailwind, all right? then it's up to us to make it happen but if i'm trying to make a gin now oh my god no right like that's the first part so i think this is you know gin hit did really well you know five ten years ago they're doing really well it's it's on the decline tequila's got a little bit of an upsee at the moment right so look for the tailwinds i think is the first part and that's one of the biggest problems i think with most ideas and that was something that i sat on the fence with for a while before making the decision to join merrick was making sure that was there and i think this is one of the other problems is that we're surrounded by so many people who are very supportive which is great but sometimes you just need someone to say hey dude don't make a gin now right or whatever it is or don't use red wine vinegar yeah don't use red wine vinegar you idiot don't call it red wine yeah don't call it red wine sorry um i think that's the first part and that's the big challenge test and i think i think when and i'm probably talking more from the beverage world and the fmcg and the cpg world because in the tech space you guys pivot so much more faster right like you can easily pivot i actually have this idea i'm just going to scrap you know yes it was x many hours but i've scrapped it like it's a lot harder because we are

51:41Ed Stening: get up a manufacturing line exactly we're a capital intensive business you've got to make

51:45Merrick Watts: stuff you've got to put it in a warehouse and it's not going to sell for three to four months if you're lucky right so that's very important coming back to your co-founding question who are you looking for i think the yin and the yang thing makes absolute sense i've i've spent a lot of time talking to other founders around this and I've had actually one guy I spoke to last week he was amazing he said you know they they exited a business and went very very well there was three of them um I said oh great you guys must you know how and he said no no we hate each other um and he said it's because we're just the same people right three of the same people we just we our skill set was very much similar they've done very well so hats off to them um but he said you know that was always a challenge was that we all had the very similar skill sets.

52:27Merrick Watts: So there was always this fighting and it's probably more of a guy thing than it is a girl thing, but there was a little bit of alpha fighting there. So I think one of the key parts is there to go, okay, find someone who's got different stuff than you, someone who can offer something differently and really hone in on that. I think it's just that trust and openness, right? Like we talk about vulnerability and all that kind of stuff. Merrick and I talk every day, you know, it's, it's, you know, he's in the business every day. We're very vulnerable with each other in tough times and realize that someone's going to have an up day, someone's going to have a down day, right?

52:56Merrick Watts: Like it sounds, it does look, everyone said these things before, but that stuff is very important. So I think finding folk that are different than you. Finding your gaps, the gaps that you have, owning your gaps, knowing your gaps. Yes. You articulate that so much better than me. Thank you. Yes. Owning your gaps. I think that's, that's the best way of saying it. Like it is, it's very much about understanding what you're not good at. Right. And going, how do I pull that in? Yeah. Thank you. Bring it home, JT. I loved this. I love Pasca. Pasca with tequila, also delicious. Do you have any final words for our audience, for founders who are out there, anyone in the startup world, maybe looking to jump from corporate to startup or startup to corporate?

53:38Merrick Watts: Great. Yeah, final words. Okay. I didn't really think about this one. So I think, look, it depends where you are in your career, what you can do, right? Not everyone can jump and do that. But I think if, you know, I was, I'm mid forties, right? I knew if I didn't do this now, I would never do it. And I'll be a salary man for the rest of my life. That's also not a bad thing. Right. But I think that taking that risk and go, look, you know what, if it doesn't work out, I just work till I'm 68, not 65. Right. And that's, that's the hard part. So figure out how much you can lose before you jump and then, and then take that all with the gusto and, and, and, and pile in.

54:19Merrick Watts: That would be the way I would, I would look at it i think it's like you know i believe in one life right so for me it's that moment of going if i don't make this the best i fucking can then why was i here in the first place right and i think that's that that drive and motivation you you've got to have um and i think a lot of people would be very surprised how much they have that inside them um that they just haven't untapped yet yeah well so glad you took the jump so glad you and eric have posca it's It's delicious and loved having you here on the couch. Thank you. And thank you for the recommendation on tequila.

54:51Merrick Watts: You're right.

54:52Ed Stening: It is very good.

54:53Merrick Watts: I'm a tequila girl.

54:53Ed Stening: Is there any other thing we should do it with? I mean, there's the old Chinese Grange and Coke thing. Should we be doing some tequila?

54:59Merrick Watts: So I've done the Grange and Coke thing a few times in Shanghai, disappointingly. I would suggest that Grange does go better by itself, but especially not shooting it. But look, basically any white spirit goes really well. Our white rum goes really well with pineapple. Vodka goes really well with everything. I think this is one of the interesting things about Posca is it is a high acid drink, so it's really bright and fresh. Also, it has the electrolytes and the gut health, so it alleviates any of the challenges that alcohol generally bring in. Now, in Australia, we haven't really pushed the hard Posca too much around the space because of ABAC rules and all that kind of thing.

55:36Merrick Watts: But look, we do see a space for this as a mixer in the future, the same way Red Bull did. I think most of us probably tried our first Red Bull with vodka or with Jaeger. And, you know, imagine, you know, think about it now. Jaeger and Red Bull was such a most disgusting thing. But, jeez, we enjoyed it. I'm going skiing in a couple of weeks. There you go. You just brought back that promise. You're ready to go. You're ready to go. You're ready to go. Look, we haven't done Posca Bombs yet. So maybe that's a test. Maybe that's our next podcast. Maybe that's our next podcast.

56:05Ed Stening: We'll kick off with a couple of Posca Bombs. Ed, great to have you on the show. Thanks, I'm on. We really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. So aside from drinking Posco, are you up to anything this weekend, Ms. Trell?

56:16Merrick Watts: I am doing some eliminating and cleaning out because I need to find a new place to live.

56:21Ed Stening: Yeah. If anyone has a spare room.

56:23Merrick Watts: A spare granny flat. But it's fun. I've been going through old photos. Going through old photos because I held on to a lot of stuff and putting it all in the cloud so I feel a little bit better.

56:33Ed Stening: Oh, excellent. That's a brilliant idea. One way to save space.

56:37Merrick Watts: One way to save space, not as such a fun weekend, but it could be going down memory lane.

56:42Ed Stening: Well, I'm going to take a cup of Posca down to my son who plays AFL. The Griffins are going into their finals, this thing. We've got a 21-year-old's party on Friday night and then we've got the footy the next day. So I think everyone will be quite sensible. It is that sensible generation. Archie doesn't drink at all. And the hydration thing, I just love that story because I think it's a really important one. The Gatorade thing was always a treat at the end when you worked really hard because I felt it was like a lot of sugar and a bit of salt. So I'll be interested to see what he thinks of these.

57:18Ed Stening: You'll get some feedback from a 21-year-old. But that is it for Set Up 360 this week. This is a Smart Co Media production produced and edited by the fabulous mountain man Matt Jackson. Thanks also to Ella, to James and to Deal for their support. Really appreciate it. Of course, subscribe on Apple, on Spotify, and you can watch us on YouTube. You'll get to see the cans if you haven't seen them. They're in the clips. And don't forget to read StartupDaily.net. It's absolutely free. Sign up. You'll get regular newsletters. And, of course, every Friday when this show comes out, you'll get that in your inbox as well.

57:53Ed Stening: Have a great weekend. We'll see you next Friday. Bye for now.