Failing forwards: Minnie Isaac on beauty, dignity and building dewwie.com

0:00Founders, I know what's on your mind at stupid o 'clock. After failed attempts at counting funding rounds and doom scrolling, you've finally settled on something that will surely put you to sleep. Payroll and compliance. Don't let the boring stuff slow down your startup growth. Global HR and payroll platform DEAL, that's D-E-E-L, can handle all the complicated stuff around international payroll, compliance, visas and onboarding, so you can stay focused on building. Visit deal.com slash 360 to learn more today. It's okay to fail, just like fall a bit further ahead every time you fail. I think I'm very good at that.

0:40I'm very good at like constantly falling forward.

0:49Hello and welcome, Budri Gamma-Warri from McGatigal Lands here in Sydney. It's time for Startup360, your weekly show of founder fun. more than founder mode, but we do a bit of moding. I'm Simon Thompson, editor of StartupDaily.net, and I am once again joined by my fabulous co-host... Julie Trell. Well done. Thank you. You're doing really good at remembering your name. I know. It's getting old. It's a hard thing. How has your week been? It has been good. I've had projects here and there. I'm working with South Start. All excellent. I'm just putting that on the radar. The former Startup Daily Best in Tech favorite event winner.

1:25Still good. Still excellent. Always different, always fun, always creative. Daniella and Craig do a wonderful job with that. Agree. What's the date next year? March 17th, 18th. Okay. Pop that in the diary. Pop it in the diary. It's going to be at the Garden of Delightful. Unearthly Delights. Unearthly Delights where they're hosting Fringe. And so there will be a lot of, I keep picturing beanbags and people hanging out and serendipitous connections. There's a Spiegel Tent there. Spiegel Tent, yeah. I will look forward to that because it will be so much fun. Correct. Now, who is our guest today, Julie?

1:59Once again, excited about this guest as well. We have Minnie Isaac, who I got to meet and got to get to know during Startup Stand-Up. She was one of the comedians. She was one of the funniest comedians. She was one of the funniest. And she was very sick that night too. So she's resilient. She's persistent. She is positive. She fights back. Fights is a strong word. And she's very inclusive. And she was just so wonderful to work with in the cohort. and she is working in the beauty tech space. I would call her quietly powerful. Yes. She walks softly and carries a very funny stick. She's got a beautiful, happy, playful energy.

2:39You just want to be around her. She is, of course, the founder of White Rabbit Social, which is a wonderful site supporting women and offering them plenty of insight from business to financial literacy and, of course, beauty. and that has led her to her next plan, which is Dewey, D-E-W-W-I-E.com, which is all about beauty. An accessible beauty for the people who know it very, very well and the people who see it as quantum physics and they can understand it. So this bloke who basically treats moisturizer like he's a Greek cement renderer. You. Yeah, me. is going to try and plunder some tips, get some tips so I can be a better-looking bloke.

3:28It's never too late. That's going to be hard to do, Simon, to get more better looking. Oh, thanks, you gorgeous friend of mine. Look, before we go any further, I do want to say that Startup360 is supported by Deal. Hire, manage and pay anyone, anywhere. They're beauties too. Good on you, Deal. You're a beauty. which leads me to the deal Spiel and there's been a bit going on this week. Are you checking down the back of the couch to buy Anthropik shares in its IPO? Yes. Yes. Not right now. The prospectus which contain more than 90 pages of risks and warnings, I summed up as what doesn't kill you will only make you richer is probably the pitch that the company is going for.

4:19they're looking to raise supposedly around 100 billion US dollars on a one and a half billion no two billion US valuation which makes it about 2.8 billion Australian. There was a lot to poke around. The risk factors yes that it could all kill us and cause existential harm to humanity. It's like shut up and take my money. It's like if I was a cigarette company or a crystal meth maker I'd be looking into IPO right now because it seems to be the vibe that everyone is chasing. There were some interesting other details in there. One special share will give the founders 50.1 % of general shareholder voting power.

5:02So Dario is going to still in charge of the company. There will be a separate benefit trust that can appoint a majority. The other interesting thing I thought there was that Anthropic estimates 5 % to 7 % of revenue in the first nine months came from customers subsequently identified as breaking its usage policies or commercial terms. So we've got great customers doing bad things. How good is that? And then, you know, it was just a really wild adventure. And, of course, the other fun thing that came out was OpenAI, the anthropic rival, with a bug in the office. In the TV screen. It's like you could just stick your bloody Siri sort of speaker or whatever in there and Sonos or what's that Google one called?

5:55Google Home? Google Home, Siri, Alexa. I mean that's basically a bug listening all the time anyway, isn't it? Correct, and I have a couple of them. Yeah. But bugs, bugs have been catching your eye this week. Yes, yes. Have you been leaving the lights on? Yes, no. Yes, I do. I actually have fairy lights on the tree in my front yard. So I do have those lights. And so what's been happening, Julie? So this is a little bit of old news, but I find I'm fascinated by it. So, you know, maybe call it slow news and maybe someone else didn't know about it. I know it also happened in the year 2000. But for about a month, the weather radars across southeastern Australia have shown rain every night, even under clear skies.

6:37You know where I'm going with this? So the Bureau of Meteorology says the raiders are fine, but they're picking up the millions of bogong moths that are migrating south to the Alps. I also didn't know that Australia had Alps. That was another thing that I learned. Perisher and Threadbow. Yeah, OK. So you called it Alps. Well, you know, we'd like to make a little bit posh. OK, yes, definitely posh. So the rain appears like clockwork just after sunset because of these moths. Now, they don't eat clothes, so they're fine. They're not like the moth, the clothing, clothing, but I know it happened also in 2000 at the Sydney Olympics.

7:11Yes, because there was a very famous moment during the closing ceremony when a large moth landed on the opera singer and it looked like a giant brooch. But of course, they're attracted to lights. I've had them all around my place in Sydney's inner west. And they are amazing. And they're endangered. That's the other thing. They're endangered. They're endangered. Because of climate change. For whatever reason. Yeah, the climate change and they're needed for food, for the possum. So there's a whole flywheel of things. Well, Indigenous people use them for food too and would grind them up to make flour in bogun moss, which I think is really good.

7:46And then, of course, there's the really daggy ones with the mullet haircut. They're called bogun moss. They're up in Queensland, right? Oh, you're going to get letters. You're going to get emails. Great. I would love some emails. I'd love to have a conversation. Yeah, about boguns in Queensland. Yes. The other thing that certainly caught my eye this week was Allegra Spender. Now, of course, she was our guest speaker at the Best in Tech Awards, which a lot of the startup founders really enjoyed. But this week the government's plans around capital gains tax charges and the R &D tax incentive and, of course, the early stage venture capital laws all dropped in a single bill in Parliament.

8:34Treasurer Jim Chalmers had promised it was going to happen this week. Tuesday it did. I've written all about what I saw as some of the key changes from the consultation they held last month on StartUpDaily.net. But it got interesting on Wednesday when Allegra Spender put this plan out for a one-size-fits-all general 40 % capital gains discount for qualifying business assets that takes out all of the paperwork, the complexity, and if you read this thing, it really is rocket science, the way they've designed this tax legislation about who can qualify, when they qualify, how they qualify, what qualifies, what then doesn't qualify.

9:15It does your fucking head in. It is, as legislation goes, I go back to the thousands and thousands of pages of Australia's Tax Act. This is adding way too many more pages to the Tax Act. I had some sympathy for, I think it was a coalition policy many years ago that every time they put one page of Tax Act in, they had to take two out. This one is just adding to the challenge and the complexity. So her proposal removes the company age and turnover caps. The trade-off is, of course, that it's a smaller discount than the 50%. But the narrowing of that for who will qualify and when they will qualify was causing a lot of angst.

9:56And I just think that this is a simpler tour plan. No idea at this stage if it's going to get up in Parliament, but the government has got a few challenges on at the moment. And, of course, they will need Senate support. They've got no problems in the lower house. It goes straight through because they've got the numbers. But in the Senate, they need the crossbench. Now, the Greens are already having a fight with them over the R &D tax incentive, saying you need to exclude oil and gas companies as qualifying for that. And because it's all in the one bill, it's all in or nothing. So if the Greens are going to have a fight with the government over the R &D tax incentive, then the CGT stuff doesn't go through, the early stage venture capital stuff doesn't go through.

10:40And the one thing I do want to mention is that a friend of the show, Sia, we, Christy launched Meteora this week. Yes. And you went along to that. I did. I went to Sia's, to Christy's launch. Yeah. Dan Weir was the emcee. And it talked about how important and how Meteora is solving the problem of data management, essentially, to telling stories and helping with grants and helping with impact for the impact for organizations that are receiving funds and impact how to tell those stories with it. And very happy to dig deeper into the Meteora platform. Well, you can also read about it on startupdaily.net.

11:22I've written all about it on there, along with all those other stories we just mentioned. But shall we take a quick break and then get Minnie in to have a chat? Absolutely. All right. Well, don't go away. We'll be right back with Startup360 and Minnie. Founders scale faster on deal. Set up payroll for any business in minutes, hire anyone, anywhere and get visas handled fast so you can stay focused on scaling. Deal takes care of onboarding, HR, IT, EOR, benefits and compliance so your team can grow without borders. It's why more than 37 ,000 fast growing companies trust Deal to move fast. Visit deal.com slash 360.

12:08That's D-E-E-L dot com slash 360. Zach. Welcome back. Yay. Nice to be back. Nice to be back. And I am so excited for our next guest. I'm laughing already. I know. She's got funny. She's got beauty. She's got dignity. She's got connection. She is Minnie Isaac. Minnie is an Assyrian, Australian writer, creator, and founder of White Rabbit Social and Dewey, so beauty tech. But White Rabbit Social is an independent beauty and culture publication supporting women through accessible content, career conversations, and shared experiences. And I want to say very equitable, not going to the high-end products and really getting to people who can find the products that work for them.

13:03And we had a great conversation the other day about talking about dignity, that beauty and these products can help bring dignity. But I also want to talk about Minnie as a person. So I recently met her two weeks ago at the Startup Stand-Up event, and she just brought the cohort together, always supporting everyone, was funny, supportive, showed up sort of very sick the night of. And so Minnie, when I think of her also is very resilient, persistent, and like any founder should and needs to be. So Minnie, tell us a little bit about who you are, White Rabbit Social, and how we got you here. Julia, I'm so flattered by that intro.

13:45Big shoes to fill. That was a wonderful experience. I'm a content creator by trade and then that bleeds into everything. So White Rabbit Social is a publication. It's digital. We publish over 30 authors and we have a big focus on diversity, diverse voices, experts. Dewey is the next step in that, which as you mentioned, is beauty tech. And that's taking majority of my time. I say I'm a tech founder by night and a content creator by day. I'm kind of a beauty writer by midday. I got into startup standup, which is where we met. through Dewey, I saw it posted on LinkedIn and I thought, oh, I love to laugh and be laughed at.

14:24So this is a perfect opportunity. It was perfect. And yeah, it, it really like stretched me as a person. I was uncomfortable in all the good ways and I feel like I'm better off for it. So did some standup leading up to the big night and that was humiliating and amazing. So yeah. So the resilience is a theme. I just, there's a theme in all of your stories and all of your journey. you knock the judges off during the audition night we were just like yes have to have her I want to go back to the white rabbit social what I do like about that so all their tips and tricks and stories and I'd love a good get ready with me I also love that you do bring in other influencers so it's not just about many it's really about other people that you can listen to that would resonate with one another and where do you find these other and how do you vet them to be on white rabbit social?

15:14Oh, that's such a great question. I feel so lucky in beauty. This is why I'm very much obsessed with the industry. These women and these creators are my friends. Like, I'm that lucky. And I pinch myself every day. Like, these are my peers and my friends. I've met them at events. I've met them through working on the same campaigns. Sometimes they're working at brands and behind the scenes. And I've seen their talent. And I've been like, please share it. If If you're able, please share it. And I think although White Rabbit is a publication, so it's written words, not all of our authors are traditionally writers.

15:49And that's been a big thing for us. Like, please write how you speak. Even if you use voice to text, like we just want to hear your perspective. And I think that also lowers the bar for readers. When they dive in, they're not reading something, you know, a journal is written, although we love making space for that as well. is just very approachable. It's like, oh, I feel like my friend's written me a bit of a long text and now I know what to get at Priceline. That kind of approach. So yeah, friends and peers and from all different levels of writing and all incredibly engaging. And I feel confident saying that because it's not my writing, it says.

16:25Let's take a step back. How does one decide to be a content creator and what does it mean? Describe what a content creator is. Yeah, great question. Well, there's all types of content, podcasting. we can loop in there. There's written content. There's like posting statics. You don't always need to post video content if you're not comfortable. And there's a whole bunch of platforms you can post on too. I started predominantly on Instagram just after COVID lockdowns. And it was because I was going through cystic adult acne for the first time in my life. I naturally went into skincare. I wanted to DIY and solve it at home.

17:00I made it tremendously worse. I didn't know it could get worse. I made it so much worse. And then when I did find products that suited me I thought oh there's other women there's other people that are going through this I'll start sharing online and that's where like a community naturally grows other people have the same concerns and it's not rare for women especially to go through teens have the odd spot and then maybe when they hit 20 have a full face of blemishes and have no idea what to do because it feels so alien um so that's how I started posting and yeah content is huge anyone can be content creator and i'm very passionate and you learned that so you're also a corporate refugee oh yes i mean the part of the journey that got you to stepping to where you are now if you want to talk a little bit about the decision absolutely um sorry that's completely my fault apologies all good yeah it's a corporate refugee yeah i did do the nine to five for a bit and i didn't manage it well at all.

18:01I was incredibly unwell. I had very mismanaged endometriosis. Oh, wow. Yeah. It was very, it was, yeah, it was really complicated. I wasn't getting the support I needed and the help I needed. And thank goodness now I have, and I, I just feel like I'm living another life. I can't even explain the amount of like pain, discomfort, medication. It would really, uh, snowball up to the point where I just felt like, oh, I can't live. That's how bad it got. um so the nine to five wasn't for me it wasn't for my body I was incredibly stressed and I kind of left without a choice and content creation was in the background but I definitely wasn't earning enough money to live off it um at the time I was married but that is a bit of a tangent um that I'm happy to jump into marriage can be a tangent on occasions which actually brings brings us back to white rabbit social because if I understand correctly You started it so that you could help explain.

18:56You could answer, you know, the frequently asked questions around being a content creator. But there's a strong emphasis on finance and financial wellness for women. Talk a little bit about that. Absolutely. And especially in the early days, that is a lot of our evergreen content, a lot of the content. I'm always linking out to people because they are FAQs. That was because content creation, and we spoke a little bit about what that is, is incredibly accessible. You can do it on your terms. You know, I'm sick at home. I'm still able to create content because I'm recording myself doing a skincare routine when I am able to do that.

19:32So what content does bring in is a lot of people that are maybe like corporate refugees or maybe haven't worked in freelance. Maybe they're stay-at-home moms. Maybe this is the first job or the first time they're earning their own money. Like myself, I didn't go to uni. I studied theology after school, actually. Another tangent. but I was learning this all in real time. I think what was lucky for me is I didn't have any shame around asking so I did. I asked people that did work in marketing how do I price? How do I speak to brands? I'm finding it really hard to break through and to give you a picture like I had a full face of adult acne.

20:11I was a bit awkward on camera. I was very new to content creation and I was like very financially unstable. I didn't have access to my own money at the time so I learned how to navigate that with the support of a community and when I had women messaging me like Minnie how do I charge for this what do I charge what does this term mean how could I not share that knowledge on that I was given it seemed insane to not do that um so we did and there's so many success stories like I can boast about all day because it's obviously at the end of the day the women contacting the brands being like actually I do want to get like charge$800 for this when perhaps previously they thought they could charge$50.

20:50Or I do charge when you use my ad like a usage ad. They know that now but they didn't before they read the article. So there's so many good feelings, you know, very easy to work on stuff like that when it's helping other women. It sounds like you were stuck in a perfect storm on your self-esteem. Interesting. What was that experience like and how did you get out of it, the eye of that storm because I think part of what the community is about is often you can feel quite isolated and that creates its own self-esteem issues you feel like you're the only one there and you've created a community that it's not just me but everything you were describing then sounds like it would have a major impact on who you thought you were and you seem very proud of who you are now oh i i yeah i think i am thank you so and thank you for asking um yeah self-esteem is a really interesting topic i think um we're often pushed to self-love and like radically accept ourselves when maybe we're not at that point yet uh for me with acne if we're taking that as its own little thing um i just was practicing neutrality it's like okay this is my skin that's doing things that are complicated um i know other people don't have what i have in the same way but some people do and they're happy to talk about it and i think i found a lot of community connection and that broke through the isolation and then from there i felt yeah my esteem wasn't attached to my looks um rather like my ability to connect with others and it was more about like humanizing myself and when i'm speaking to a woman that also is having the same thing as i am i'm not looking at her and thinking oh she's awfully looking like i'm like oh this is my beautiful friend and she's so smart she's so talented and she's working a brand she loves so how could i not then show that to myself so i think going through i feel neutral about this i'm going to connect regardless and then coming out the other side like now having acne is part of my identity i've got a few friends between my eyebrows today so i'm wondering if you have any stories or what was, was there a defining moment or defining moments where you got this, it sounds like courage to me to brush off the things that you might think is wrong or other people might think are wrong.

23:08And I air quote wrong with you to be able to step out and ask and push back. Cause that's the other thing that I've heard you do. I think, um, there are some moments that are really clear in my mind on that journey. I think I've always defaulted to consulting with an expert. I've always paid people for their time. I know when it's time to be like, I'm not sure about this. I need to go outside myself. And I think it's very easy when you're hyper able to always try to DIY, always try to do it yourself, always try to learn it yourself, but please just do the shortcut. Like pay the mentor, you know, message the friend.

23:45We don't need to do it alone. So there was one particular time where I messaged a friend who was working in marketing and she had the insider knowledge. I was quoting a brand for a post and I was thinking oh$50 like$50 is a great amount of money to post a picture for surely and this isn't public knowledge as well so I messaged I said hey Amanda shout out Amanda she's wonderful should I charge like what$50 maybe like 40 30 so there's no money this is like a$450 job at least and then if they're asking for usage you need to charge more. That was very early on in my career. And that completely changed my approach to monetization on platforms, what people could charge for content, and also how willing I was to ask and to continue to ask like, okay, this just blew my mind.

24:34This is now going to change everything. So that was one particular moment that really stood out. I don't feel the shame showing up online looking a bit like a bit cooked, a bit deep fried. And I'm not afraid to hear no from brands walkway power is incredibly strong um and i know that's not something that everyone can do but i've much rather gone with no pay or being like a bit broke or living with my mom than doing something i don't want to do like that's been a consistent theme so that is part of it being able to say no um that means you can convey your value much better to brands um and i kind of liken it because someone told me this metaphor and I've always really liked it, but you take a coat off a shelf and it's really, really nice, but it's not quite right.

25:20It's too long in the arms. You put the coat back or do you tailor it? So with brands, that's been something I've always done. I've always tailored their offers. Maybe they've come to me with a deal for skincare and it's like, I'm not a big fan of your skincare, but I love your makeup. Let's collaborate on this. Like always giving an alternative. And when it does get to the, no, you're not in budget. that's when I like to be extremely creative actually this is something I wish the VC world adopted a lot more because I've been in so many situations where you get to this point and they're like no no we can't do it it's like okay now it's a free-for-all now we can say whatever we want and there's no loss so it's like okay you said no to this um and I'll just think of something like insane but you have two thousand dollar budget and you know I can't do all your deliverables but I can do like one reel for that and you can boost it for a week for example and then they go yeah okay because they're pretty happy to engage if you're giving them the value if you're showing them that you care if you're pitching the ideas um and that's kind of my favorite moment i can think of moments in vcs where i've just i've like been so yearning um for someone to go okay like let's just do this crazy thing because there's like no loss here we might as well it's not a no it's not right now or let me redesign this yeah and you made me think about one of the exercises as we did for the comedians.

26:39When you're up on stage and you get no laughs, you know, and stretching that muscle and what it feels like. And it was a safe place to do it in, the 12 of you. And some of the feedback were saying, yeah, the energy in the room just changed and shifted, but it was just to experience it and then get back up on stage and put on an amazing set. Everyone did. So the model of the story is always grab the coat. Yeah, I think so. Always grab the coat and then do your best to get it tailored. Like if you love the coat, make it so it fits you because if you wear a coat that doesn't fit you, everyone can tell probably as well.

27:14Like especially online, it's all about building trust. I'm showing. And authenticity, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. And that means, you know, giving it a red hot crack and I'm always keen to do that. So tell our listeners and viewers a little bit about your comedy set. Just if you want to deliver some, we'd absolutely love it, but otherwise you can just do a walkthrough of how it came about because it brought this was not just hilarious. There was the essence of it was that sense of humility and a willingness to laugh at yourself in the process and bring everyone into that fold along the way. And an insight into beauty, the beauty fashion world.

27:58Yeah. Wow. I would love to. part of the self deprecation was almost being myself walking on stage. Like that was completely legitimate. I think because I was a bit unwell to say the least. I felt extremely anxious before I went on stage. Horrible vibes to be around. I do not envy the comedians that were around me when I was like head in hands, like hyperventilating. I've never been like that in my life, but I blame the lack of oxygen to my brain. So part of that was just being really honest about how I felt like I actually might pee myself on stage and just preparing the audience for that. I think everyone with pelvic floor issues was suddenly on your side at that point.

28:41Yeah, like what a good way to niche down as well. And I did have a pimple on my second chin that morning. And I thought that's kind of hilarious because, you know, on a stage you're a bit higher up and everyone's just got this view. I thought, oh, that's fantastic. And all the guys in their sets were talking about some, you know, body parts. So I thought I might as well throw in, oh, at least the guys will pay attention because it looks like a tit, which is a little bit crass. But I thought it was like funny and everyone was. It was immersive as well was why it was so funny. Yeah, I think my content and also being on stage, I knew I could only do that if I was uncomfortably honest.

29:22And if I felt awkward, like I feel awkward, you know, I feel a bit nervous. I feel nervous. and that's okay. And I think that helps people listen to what you're saying rather than I'm trying to act right now. And you did, I mean, all your stuff was so honest. You made fun of the fashion bros, you made fun of the beauty bros, the tech bros, and even the women trying to find your cohort of women in the body or in the ecosystem. I definitely tried. I think gender is a hot topic. And I do legitimately think we need to find places to come together on why not why not laughing why not laughing and also I don't really want to talk to anyone that can't laugh at themselves so well I want to give so I like to do the uh Amy Poehler thing so I reached out to someone who knows you who someone was in the in the cohort this is from Stacy of fellow Stacy Edmonds who is also on the couch fellow comedian and she says Minnie committed herself fully to the process and supported everyone along the way see a theme here she was so open to learning from feedback and blooming hilarious.

30:28That's from Stacey. Yeah, that's ridiculously lovely and means so much more coming from Stacey who is like a goddess. So thank you, Stacey. Now I want to talk about your Assyrian heritage because you identify strongly with it. Yes. For people who are not across the joys of Mesopotamia and that part of the world, why is it part of your identity as an Assyrian Australian? Yeah, that's because they are incredibly resilient as a people. We are incredibly resilient and I feel so much of my identity and my strength and being a strong woman is in my cultural heritage and I want to put that out boldly and strongly.

31:13Assyrians are indigenous to Iraq. We don't have land on a map anymore. There are pockets of us all over the world and we're an incredibly, yeah, incredibly proud people because of what we've went through and we're still together. And, you know, I'm half Australian, half Assyrian, so being a halfie is a unique experience. But, yeah, it's like shout out. Look where we are now. And also Assyrians are so naturally gifted in business, so it kind of makes me put it outside of myself as well. It's like, oh, I'm doing well, but, like, this is what we do, you know. It feels better. So talk a little bit more about that history.

31:52Just explain it to our listeners because it's been a long, complex one in a region that, you know, has so many fights for identity and ethnic minorities often have a really hard time and we've talked about it with the Druze and many others. Share a bit more of the Assyrian story. Yeah, absolutely. I mean my entire family is in Australia now. They've come over as refugees. It's a Christian nation. They are incredibly faithful as a people. And that's kind of the glue that holds everyone together. I have beautiful memories of my grandma growing up. Took care of me when my mom was sick as well. She's an incredibly talented cook and we lost her recently.

32:39But yeah, definitely refugees coming to Australia, having to rebuild, having to learn a new language, having to find work and my dad's side when they did come to Australia. Australia was incredibly racist. I'm not saying we're like we've improved we have a long way to go but incredibly difficult for refugees learning a second language who look different who are brown to then navigate and earn money and kind of like slice out a pot for them to care for their families. So the Middle East is an incredibly war-torn part of the world. There is a lot of pain there. There is a lot of unrest. And Assyrians really got the worst of both ends, not just being an ethnic minority, but a religious minority.

33:29So I'm very, very grateful for that resilience that's in our DNA. It shows. Yeah, that's why I put it first. It shows. I'm a Syrian-Australian. Yes. And you mentioned Assyrians are good at business. Are there any Assyrian traditions or cultural things that you have brought specifically to both White Rabbit Social and Dewey, which I want to get to also. Is there anything that you've noticed from your culture that you've brought to business specifically? I think the women, like Assyrian women, are incredibly strong, incredibly resilient, incredibly business-minded, like running a household, taking care of a community and the place like my grandma truly was the matriarch of the family um and we kind of liken her to a mob boss not that she was but like that that level of um intensity and uh truth to herself and like really sticking by her morals and what she believed and that has really reflected like i'm not i'm not scared to say what i think um you know i kind of lose it all for the sake of like sticking by my morals and I don't think that's something that's very readily available but in my community.

34:41Here's to your grandma. May her memory be your blessing. Thank you so much. Shall we take a quick break and when we come back, we'll talk to Minnie about Flearnings. Flearnings and Dewey. And Dewey, absolutely. Don't go away. We'll be right back. Welcome back. You're watching Startup360 and we're here today with Minnie Isaac, founder of Dewey. and White Rabbit Social. Min are Dewey because I know that Julie has been itching to get into this one. As a daughter who is obsessed with Mecca. Oh, yes. Tell us a little bit about what's going on with Dewey because as a bloke it's like, okay, I slap a bit of moisturiser on and I feel like my, you know, regimen is done for the day.

35:30Well, that's great. Like that's a really, really good start. I'm an incredibly modern man, you know, just such a metrosexual. Oh, I don't even know what that is. So it's amazing. I feel like you should be teaching me now. Yes. Oh, my God. That would be a little bit Thelma and Louise straight over the cliff if I was teaching you. But Dewey, tell us about Dewey. Yeah. Dewey's being built to solve the personalisation crisis. Dewey, yes. All right, so I'm going to get it right. I'll go back and we'll do that again. No. You're not Dewey. Dewey. Oh, yeah, Dewey. Dewey. What were you saying? Yeah, same thing.

36:08Dewey. I was saying Dewey. I think that's fine. As in like the duck. It's also fine. Huey, Dewey, and Louie. It's D-E-W-W-I-E. I had a coach that kept calling it Dewey and I'm like, I pay you too much to get this name wrong, dude. Yeah, but maybe the coach was projecting at that point, you know, giving us part of your routine. No, potentially, potentially. No, dewy. Personalization and skincare. Moisturizer is one of the three essential steps. So you're actually a third of the way there. I'd love to see some sunscreen. Yes. Just do a sunscreen in the morning, which usually has a moisturizer as a base.

36:44Well, 15 % or 15 SPF is the moisturizer. That's a really good start. Oh, okay. Nivea has a fantastic SPF 50 moisturizer. Would be great to get you an SPF 50 in the morning. Keep it out of your eyes. but that'd be great. Two and three Aussies get skin cancer. We have the highest melanoma rates in the world. But sunscreen is the only essential step in the morning. At nighttime, it's a cleanse followed by moisturizer. That's it. Twice a day. Okay. So I've got to double it. So Dewey is solving the problems of? Yeah, Dewey's solving the problem of personalization in skincare. And we really did hit a roof with my content in White Rabbit Social.

37:26We share from experts. we share about skincare, but we were missing that personalization that, okay, what moisturizer do you use in the morning, Simon? And what is your personalized response, which is, hey, get up to an SPF 50. That's going to be better for your skin. That's giving you higher sun protection factor. You know, chuck on a hat, those little things that suit your routine, which articles and content creation couldn't get, even though they have a wider reach. Dewey does that by taking all the context they know what's in your routine they know where you shop so you know i could say hey pick up the nivea moisturizer with spf 50 at woolies next time you're picking up groceries and it's going to be on sale 50 off in two weeks right yes that's what i want to know we want to make it really accessible really easy and we don't want to overwhelm people with their routine which is why i mentioned there's only three essential steps and a lot of people are doing considerable damage to their skin going far beyond that you're really buying into the marketing which i've done this is the industry that we're in um but what are the three steps yeah so it's sunscreen in the morning apply generously reapply at midday use multiple methods of sun protection so chuck on a hat uh seek shade it's really important and then at night time cleanse so cleanse off the sunscreen the mess from the day and apply a moisturizer that's it the three steps those are the essentials And everything else from that is extra.

38:50And you might have skin concerns like me, having blemishes, but that is all extra. And we want to get the basics right in a way that suits you, where you're shopping, your skin type, your skin concerns. Let's address that first. And then we can do all the rest if you want to. So you're making a healthier world, a healthier community, providing dignity, people feeling good, being better. So that's great. But I'm going to put a little bit of an investor hat on. Yeah. How is the site making money? What is your financial model for it? Yeah, so there's a few ways Dewey will make money and we're happy to pivot depending on what users enjoy.

39:22But we have existing affiliate relationships in Australia with all the major beauty brands like Over 70 through White Rabbit Social. So we're already earning money through affiliate. And then there will be a premium feature on Dewey. We're figuring out how to make that and what to put behind the paywall. That's still definitely a discussion because we want Dewey to be extremely accessible, easy to use, and people to obviously purchase their regular products through there. And then we'll also offer one-on-one skin consults with experts. When people need that extra support, probably just a one-off.

39:56If they need ongoing support, we're happy to offer that. But that's what it's looking like now. One more question about that. You vet your influencers that are on White Rabbit Social. Do you vet or do you have a bar or a rubric of your brands that you include on there? or is it anyone that just pays you? It's like, are you really being exclusive about brands? In terms of affiliates, it'll be every brand that's available because people can then search what they want to purchase. And we want to honor what people value. Some people want cruelty-free vegan. Some people want natural products. Some people might only shop from one particular brand.

40:34But what Dewey is really doing is being like, this is how it serves you in your routine. does this make sense for you? So a really classic example is someone might be using three products, but they all have exfoliants in them. And that's actually stressing out their skin is causing them blemishes. And then the next step for them is like chasing a blemish serum because they have spots. But really, if we pair back, that's the solution. So we want to support someone with the products that they have. The affiliate is something that like brings in monetization, but we're much more concerned about people finding products that suit them and then they can be loyal to them because that actually gives them better skin results.

41:13Now I've got to dive in here because I kind of feel like you're explaining quantum computing to me at this point in time. You said something about exfoliation. I thought that isn't that getting rid of all the all the dirt and stuff off your face so how's that if you're exfoliating then causing blemishes? Yeah. What's going on here? Yeah no that's a great question and it's like everything Everything in moderation. Everything in moderation. So when someone over exfoliates, they start to strip the skin's natural defense barriers. We have something called a skin barrier, which is a balance of all sorts of things on the skin.

41:46And when that's stripped, the skin starts showing signs of stress that can look like blemishes, that can look like dry skin, redness, irritation, reaction to products that don't usually cause reactions. So it really is this moderation that we're bringing with Dewey that the current marketing or the skincare world or the beauty world doesn't support because that stops people buying and trying new products. But I believe that it's actually okay, whatever someone wants to use, as long as it's serving their skin, they don't need to try new things unless they want to. They want to really move away from try something to fix.

42:20Rather, it's like, look at what you have, look at what you're buying. And that loyalty and that retention is actually what a lot of brands are missing. Yeah. And you also said something about, so any kind of commissions that you make, you're also you're additionally supporting so I love how you mentioned you're acknowledging all the different kinds of physical abilities or disabilities and taking that into account what's happening what are you doing also beyond that I mean we're building off some of the causes that we've already supported um I'd say in my career we've sent off at least 300 goodie boxes to women in really complicated times um whether they've just left a marriage or maybe they've lost their job or maybe they've broken up with a boyfriend like we don't judge when things are difficult we know that beauty products can really help cut through and it's just another thing not to worry about and it's also a lovely way to show gratitude dignity again i talk it's like giving that dignity so where can we find dewey where can people sign up for and get on your waiting list yeah uh dewey.com is where our waiting list currently sits um in the next week we'll be sending out an offer for like a one-on-one consultation for free if you want to chat probably with me depending on how the team's going about skincare in a really approachable way like really no frills and I know it's corny but it is more than skin deep for us like we really do care this is a group of people that want to do good by you and yeah we want to be a bit of a relief in a sea of craziness and it's spelled d-e-w-w-i-e.com um going back to the breakup uh tears and chocolate they're good for your skin or not um well interesting you asked that i think you should eat what you want and any conversation around diet should be had with your doctor and everyone's very individual i would hate for someone to give up chocolate during a breakup because they're worried about having a spot.

44:12Have your chocolate, girl. Yeah. And boys. Yeah, absolutely. They and them, all of it. Have your chocolate, please. One of the things I have seen in the last few years, going back to blokes and beauty, is there's a couple of tradies in regional New South Wales. They've launched a male skincare brand. There's a whole bunch of guys who've got into this experience. what have you seen in terms of this market because they are startup founders uh but it's a very crowded market uh there's not a lot of technology layer over the top of it but uh they're certainly carving out niches and we've had some amazing women founders in the space who've had enormous success along the way as well well there's a there's a few avenues there it's Like how do you be successful as a skincare startup?

45:04Incredibly difficult, especially in Australia. I do quite a bit of consulting for skincare startups. It is something that I personally wouldn't do. It'd be very, very difficult. You need to be solving a problem. You need to be reaching someone. You need to know exactly who you're for and how you're serving them. I'm a really big believer in accessibility. That's my North Star for Dewey, but that's also my North Star for products. So often what happens with smaller startups is they're only available online and you order them in a very particular way. And is that going to then compete with the affordable product that's at Colts?

45:39It better be really good. It better be really, really good. And your customer better be really well taken care of. So there are products that I do that for, of course. But yeah, there's a lot of nuance and it is a very difficult industry. So when you say accessibility, what do you mean by that? because I'm thinking about Storm Menzies and her By Storm Beauty, which was all about the equipment that people use when you have arthritis or things like that so that you can apply makeup in an appropriate way. Yeah, that's fantastic. Thank you for mentioning that. Like that takes accessibility into like the physical realm.

46:17People have accessibility needs where they struggle to open up like slippery mascara tubes or they might struggle to like see their face when they're applying products. this is unfortunately was very uncharted territory rather and I'm really encouraged to see brands like Bystorm and also Home Beauty who have taken this really seriously in their approach to makeup and skincare and you know we're an aging population people have accessibility needs I know I've had times where like my carpet tunnel has gotten so bad I can barely use my hands this is something that we're dealing with and yeah there's a there's a really big win for brands that sure that they see those people absolutely now we could fill up the rest of the show with the flirting part but should we dive into flirtings oh yeah sure yeah so we need a flirting story so flirtings are fuck-ups or failures failures that you learned from or one that you're really proud of and i love how you're so authentic about your your self-deprecation and what's gone wrong So I'm sure you have a couple of great stories.

47:20What is your, what's a flirting you want to share with the audience? Um, I'm trying to also think of what's most beneficial. Yeah. Going back to being hyper able or working for yourself. It's very tempting to learn and learn, um, and really like try yourself and fail yourself. And that is great. And that's really essential. Excuse me, heartburn. But in saying that, I think as women, especially, we don't ask for help enough. And there are people that are so unbelievably willing to help and to engage and to find a lot of benefit from being a part of something. I would also say in the early days of White Rabbit Social, we've always paid writers incredibly well.

48:08And that's something I'm very passionate about and being like fair pay a whole lot. And then we got to a point where we couldn't do that any more sustainably. And that was a difficult time. And then I backstepped and explained the situation and, you know, people could contribute in different ways. but I almost wish that I made it more sustainable from the get-go if we're being like very very honest about our feelings I wish I made it more sustainable from the get-go understood where monetization makes a lot of sense in the business model and the structure and then in the long term pay people much better and like have a more steady growth trajectory rather than pay up front at like quite a high rate and industry leading and then really let people down a bit further along the track.

48:53So that was something I also learned. And people are pretty understanding. It's like, hey, this is our situation, but this is what I can pay you. Be really, really upfront with what you can pay them and find out what they value and do your best to facilitate there and then grow. It's an interesting flip on where the conversation started early on about your worth and what you're prepared to accept. Absolutely. How did that conversation go through that lens when you look back on that? Um, I would say that there's different value people can engage with content. And in this sort of situation, you know, we were paying writers quite well.

49:35It got to a point where it's like, Hey, we can't pay at this rate, but people still want to contribute. So it was just a really honest conversation. And I think I would encourage brands to have these honest conversations with creators, be really upfront about your budget, what you're able to pay, and then let them make the decision for themselves. I give that independence back to the creator and then have a conversation. Be really, really honest. I also say if you can't meet a creator's rates, don't tell them your rates are too high because it's not that the creator's rates are too high. It's I can't afford what you're charging and I really value your work.

50:09And then if they respond to that, like, let's work something out, then that's a conversation between adults. And yeah, we try to do a lot. Like we've brought on a lot of writers that, you know, aren't traditionally journos and maybe we've like upskilled them and we've trained them or we've given them like paid opportunities through brands as well when they've come along. So, yeah, trying to diversify your offerings as well if you can't pay the change right up front is really important. For me it comes to relationship. So there's a no because it's all about the money and there's a not right now it doesn't fit, let's talk about it.

50:41Exactly what you said, let's figure something out where we can build a relationship. How does everyone get a coach in the end? tailored coach. Yeah, yeah, and that's exactly definitely what I want and I think we've done that really, really well. Now, the future. Yeah. We want to talk about the future. Where do you see White Rabbit Social in 10 years and, of course, Dewey? Yeah, I mean White Rabbit Social has some exciting things in the pipeline which I can't speak about just yet. Watch the space. Yes, it does have to do with bringing on some journos and kind of lifting some of the editorial standards of some of the things we share and the capacity that we're at because obviously we have like a big pool and working alongside some other extremely talented people.

51:25So that I will leave a mystery. Dewey is my bet because I work in this industry day in, day out. I'm chronically online. I see what people need and that is that like personalized conversation, that personalized advice. So that's my bigger bet is beauty tech. And in 10 years, what does it look like? How many lives have you changed? What's happening in 10 years? Oh, my gosh. I'm washing my face at the end of the day as well. Yeah, okay. In 10 years, we have millions and millions of users that are shopping brands that they align with, that they love. I'd really love to make that model as seamless as possible.

52:02We don't want to be pushing back on people. We don't want to, like, give them steps to trip over along the way. And I would love to see Dewey really well integrated with some of the other skin steps that someone might go on on their journey skin changes over a lifetime it's a very very holistic approach so whether we can like link up with germs or even offer like compound prescriptions or whatever our users need we want to facilitate and you know whether that means like working more directly with brands to give better deals like we really want this to be a part of someone's life when they have a skincare question they're going to do it when they're making a purchase they do it through do it because they like what we do and they like what they're getting so yeah in 10 years very very big i was just gonna to say I'm seeing, I'm thinking all the brands are knocking on your doors.

52:43We need to be a Dewey. We need to get everything in there. Absolutely. Absolutely. There's a lot of, there's a lot of methods for growth. And I think, um, I'm still very open to locking in what that looks like. And it's because we're serving the users first. And if our North Star is accessibility, we want to react what people need. So how do you see yourself doing this? Is it going to be a bootstrap job? Will there be some sort of investment along the way from external investors? What's the pathway to this world domination and success? I think, again, I'm quite open. I'm very happy to bootstrap.

53:18There are a few accelerators I would love to join. But ultimately, I'm quite confident in the existing community we have. And it probably makes sense to get, I don't know, a thousand paying users before going for investment. I think my experience in the VC world, people don't take skincare or beauty seriously. And it's a very alien concept. So I think the onus is on me to prove and be like, okay, like I get it. You don't need to be convinced up front, but look at this, look at the paying users, look at the value, look at the brands, you know, showing that proof. I think that is something that we do need to tick with Dewey, just from the conversations I've had and some of the skepticism, but I'm yeah, encouraged and I'm ready to do that.

53:59and I get it. Like we don't, we're not owed anything. I'm happy to have the owners approved. Can I just ask on that front though, I was thinking of Zoe Foster Blake then who had a great exit and then bought the company back subsequently. Yeah, Zoe's amazing. Which to me says that it can be quite tricky as a space to play in. You know, again, great entrepreneur. She built up really well and she's back in it. So obviously she's still a firm believer but it seems like going back to an earlier conversation about building a startup like this. Yes. There is great opportunity, but there are also great crevasses in the projects.

54:37Absolutely. And I think that's where being product agnostic is a real blessing and being independent is a real blessing. We're not in consumer goods, which is a really cutthroat market and GoTo is doing amazing. I have a lot of their favorites in my routine. But, yeah, it's a completely different structure in my opinion and people will be purchasing beauty products, whether they get more affordable, whether the brands change, if they're doing that through an avenue that supports their skin goals and that's my goal and whatever products they engage with is definitely up to them. So, yeah, it's a completely different structure in my opinion.

55:12Now put your comedic hat on for a second now that you're an expert in space. What's the thing that most needs mocking in the world right now? Sending up. Okay. I think, um, Oh, I don't want to be too edgy. I think probably some of the lack of creativity and VC for a space that is always like, we so creative and we dream so big. And then every time, you know, I say something, they're like, Oh, not that big. I'm like, okay. So we got shit together. We talk about, we talk about punching up and not punching down. And I got a little nervous with that question, but I actually support her answer. Yeah.

55:51We support the outliers. Oh, that's a bit outliery. That's exactly, I remember having this conversation, maybe I'll just share it and we can always cut it out later. But I kind of got a no in this situation and I said, yep, okay, but even if it's insane, what thing could I do to make this a yes? And their response was, no, it's just a no. But I was really surprised in this situation, this person was at a really classic VC, that they didn't say, okay, in the dream world, if you got 1 ,000 paying users overnight, then you would say yes. And I think it's actually safe to say that. Like you need to say what you want to see even if it's crazy, be creative and founders will respond.

56:31But if people are hearing like it's always going to be a no for you, then what flexibility? What flexibility? The thing you have to understand is when they say no, it's actually spelt K-N-O-W and the rest of the sentence is no fucking idea because they're looking at it and they just can't get their heads around it and that's what they mean by no. Well, and I also think no is an okay answer. But I would love to see more creativity. And I think we can laugh at the lack of creativity in the tech world right now. Yeah. Absolutely. Yes, because you are a person who enjoys play and needs play in everything you do.

57:07How does that show up in your day-to-day? Oh, my goodness. I like to take a more lighthearted approach. Things aren't too serious. Like really lighthearted towards difficult problems, difficult. situations and then that helps things go well a lot of the time. It's really nice to stumble upwards is what I kind of say. It's like it's okay to fail, just like fall a bit further ahead every time you fail. I think I'm very good at that. I'm very good at like constantly falling forward. Falling forward is a brilliant concept. Absolutely. In the time we've got left, what would you like to most be remembered for?

57:57Yeah, that's a really deep question to end on. We're not ending. We've got more deep questions to come. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, the truth, like whether it's a good business answer or not, is being a really safe space that definitely makes radical change for women to find safety because I think when we're safe, we can engage with ideas, we can be curious, we can learn. that was my journey and any way I can bring that to other women I mean that's what I want to be known for that's what I do that's what I will continue to do and that's what I want to be what brings you joy oh my goodness um yeah this is probably more personal but I think transformation brings me a lot of joy change brings a lot of joy growth brings a lot of joy I've had the privilege in my life to grow as a person and to change as a person and I've seen that in my family and in my friends and in my partner and my brother and I think this is wonderful I when you look at the news you wouldn't believe that you wouldn't believe people could change you wouldn't believe things could change but they really can don't give up on individuals and that brings me a tremendous amount of joy like I know the person I will be in five years it's not the person I am now and five years ago I was a completely different human being so that brings joy that change is possible for those of you that can't see this mini just lit up when she talked about transformation she like floated up the couch i transformed you did transform when you answered what brings you joy she ascended she ascended that was absolutely brilliant mini isaac thank you so much for joining us on startup 360 okay i am already on dewey d-e-w-w-i-e.com Thank you, Simon.

59:42And my name has gone down on the wait list so that I, and I will remember to wash my face at the end of the day. Matt, you and I, we're going to have to text each other in the evenings and just check that we've done our face cleansing regime, okay? All right. Thanks, mate. What are you up to this weekend? What's on? This weekend is Halloween. Oh, my gosh, it is too. And I'm in a new neighbourhood. So we're going to see, and my parents, I mean, Halloween's a big thing in the US. Obviously my parents who are in their 80s are getting the house and driveway prepared. It's always been a big thing in the inner west.

1:00:16Our kids were totally into it. And there's been a lot of houses for months now, certainly around Marrickville, that have had all the gear out. I got out my Nepalese mask and put it on the front door. It's kind of quite scary and my wife hates it, but it's actually designed to keep away evil spirits from young children. So that's why it looks so scary. It's to frighten away all the other horrible things. But it looks scary enough that that's my contribution to the whole weekend and I'll probably get a bag of snakes and provided they haven't all been eaten by the time the kids get there, we'll share some lollies.

1:00:48Oh, not real snakes, not Australian real dangerous can kill you snakes. Yeah, here kids, have a tiger or a taipan. No, not that kind of thing. I'm talking lollies. Gotcha. I don't know if I believe him though, Julie. Well, that is the show for this week. Thanks for joining us on Startup360. This, of course, is a Smart Co Media production produced and edited by the fantastic Matt Jackson. We'll get some moisturiser tips from him later. Thanks also to Ella, to Pearl, to James, to Deal for their support. Really appreciate it. Don't forget to subscribe. Well, thanks to Julie as well, my fabulous permanent co-host.

1:01:25Always great to have you by my side and to be by your side. Thank you, Joe. You can subscribe on Apple, on Spotify, and, of course, watch on YouTube. And don't forget to read startupdaily.net for all the latest news. You have a great weekend. We'll see you next Friday. Bye for now. Bye for now.