Ranya Alkadamani on the “So what?” test every founder needs

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0:49Hello and welcome, Budra Gamalwara from the Gadigal lands here in Sydney. It's time for Startup360. I'm Simon Thompson, editor of StartupDaily.net. And once again, I am joined by the ever fabulous Inner Westie. Newly Inner Westie. Newly Inner Westie. Julie Trell. Freshly minted. And Hershey has settled in okay. Has she unpacked her dog bowl? Oh, Hershey has unpacked all the balls, is bringing them all around the house. Excellent. That is fantastic. How's your week been? It's been good. Again, unpacking, new location, figuring it all out. And good things have been dropping in my lap. Oh, that is good.

1:25Well, I'm so glad you dropped in our lap again this week. Tell me, Julie, who is our guest this week? This week, today, we have the fabulous Rania Alkodamani. We heard her speak at Sparkfest, and she has an exceptional experience working in government, intelligence, communication, and most importantly, being a mom. Being a mom. Impact International. She's a great storyteller helping companies get their message across. And one of the reasons why I did want to talk to her was because at Spark Festival, she was on the same page as exactly what I said at Best in Tech about engaging with local politicians.

2:07So I really want to talk to her about that. But also get her stories. She worked for Kevin Rudd for a long time when he was foreign minister. And, of course, he went on to become prime minister. but he really made his mark at that stage, jet-setting around the world. It would have been a fascinating period but such an interesting career which has taken a new turn in terms of becoming a parent and I know she's gone through some trials and tribulations as a mum of young children and I'm sure she'll talk to us a little bit about that. And Fleurnings. And Fleurnings, of course, and we'll finish with Joy as we always do because we like Joy on this show, don't we?

2:47We do. What sparked Joy with you this week? um getting into my i have a view of the harbour bridge from my office at home oh my gosh yeah that is nice uh cracker night or what is it new year's eve it's new year's eve yeah everyone come to my house nine o 'clock and then we'll go to bed uh fantastic and and how about your week what's been going on with your week uh well it was an extraordinary afl grand final on the saturday uh and i went over to friend's place we had a lovely time with that and then i went down to Henson Park for the Swans women who beat Brisbane for the first time in a cracking game.

3:25It was cold and it was a very wintry football game, which was quite funny for spring. That's what I know. I did enjoy that and there was 2 ,000 hardcore fans who were there and that was great. And then I went and saw an old mate of mine, a guy called David Brydie, performing, singing some songs on the Sunday night. So it felt really busy the weekend. Well, we have a picnic on the agenda somewhere to go to Henson Park. We are going to be Henson Park and we'll set a new crowd record. 2001. 7 ,300 is the new record, so I just have to bring you and another 7 ,199 and we'll be there. So that sounds good.

4:07Now, before we go any further, I do want to say that Startup360 is supported by Deal, Hire, Manage and Pay Anyone Anywhere. Thank you to Deal for their support. which leads me to the deal spiel for this week. A couple of really interesting things going on. Now, no surprise that AI is front and centre in the whole experience yet again. In a bunch of different ways, OpenAI. How wild is this story? Because it just keeps unpacking. Next week, they're sending a senior executive out to Australia. There is a parliamentary inquiry into what's going on. So they're going to turn up to that. Another inquiry that was going on wanted Sam Altman to come out and speak to them.

4:50He's like, so I was a little bit busy, you know. A little far. The Learjet is being serviced this week, and I can't afford the Avgas, no doubt. So he's not coming, but Chief Strategy Officer Jason Kwan will appear before Parliament's AI committee on October the 6th. And OpenAI is promising stronger safeguards and an expert Australian task force because the whole Medicare breach story keeps unpacking. And the one thing I want to say, and I've used it too, and I think I have to stop saying it, the AI didn't go rogue. The AI did exactly what it was programmed to do. And I go back to if you let your dog off the leash in the park and I say this is the owner of a chocolate Labrador and it goes and eats the picnic of the other people in the park.

5:47That is not the dog's fault. That is your fault. You keep the dog on the lead because Labradors are going to do what Labradors do. And I know what Labradors are going to do. So that's on me if the dog goes rogue. But it accessed public, already public content. Oh, it did. It went further than that. It went into the private stuff as well. So we're starting to learn that more has been going on on this front than was first initially. And it's been unpacking that there's been dozens of these incidents all over the place. So we're being drip-fed what has actually happened and it seems there's a little bit of a reticence around the disclosure that doesn't necessarily build a lot of trust, especially at the same time that everyone's still running around going, AI is going to kill you.

6:37It's like, and what? And you guys, having unleashed Frankenstein on the population, are just going to say, look, sorry, my monster badly behaved. It's like, guys, get up a little bit. Put your monster back on a leash. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Put your monster back on a leash. The other one that was interesting too was the Project Mars Data Centre in Lane Cove,$1.2 billion 90-megawatt project. They pulled out of that one. Goodman was planning to build that one. Fierce opposition from residents there. Didn't want this at all. And of course, as I said, there's been these parliamentary inquiries into data centers where everyone in urban areas is saying, no, thanks.

7:22Of course, Victoria announced it's 150 meters setback. And the sector is now saying, well, that's not going to work. We won't be able to build data centers in the middle of the CBDs. But I'm looking at some of the power consumption numbers and it's astonishing and there was a story on the ABC 730 this week about a neighbourhood where they came in and started putting 15 metre giant power poles which of course can carry a 33 66 kilowatt power line on them and it's for the local data centre so in terms of social license that's one of those moments and one of those impacts where residents ended up forming a blockade in the street to try and stop things happening because they didn't know they were happening.

8:08And if we keep going down this path and ruining amenity in a visual way in this instance by putting high-powered cables through the middle of suburbs to get to a data centre, I think the whole social licensing is just going to get tougher and tougher and we're going to have to have a little bit of a rethink because the political backlash is going to be huge on this one as well. Speaking of politics, and one of the stories I did this week, I suddenly get on Monday the submissions closed for three things. One was, of course, the R &D review or plans for how they're changing that in the wake of the May budget.

8:50The other one is the IBCC, which is the Business Incentive for Startups on Capital Gains Tax. and the third one was for early stage venture capital, limited partnerships and the changes in that. So three policies all at once. Tech Council put three in. There was a lot of consensus thinking in what they had to say. I'm working on a story that I hope will get up this week but there's, of course, FinTech Australia is still deeply distressed about this experience and its membership because fintech is heavily impacted by what's potentially happening on this front. The government at this point in time, given this process, this is the third step, has one more chance to get it right.

9:36Treasury has one more chance to get it right. But all the anecdotal stuff I'm hearing and I'm believing it now because when I talk to the service providers especially, founders are coming to them and saying, right, we need to get out of town. We need to re-gear our business. We need to rethink how we're doing this because we're not going to be doing it in Australia. And I think my biggest concern in all of this when it comes to VCs, and I know that VCs love to bleat about a lot of things, I don't think it's a level playing field for the local VCs because the taxation changes will have a different impact on them to international ones.

10:20and the consequence of that that I don't think Treasury and the government has thought through is that we will see a bigger inflow of international capital coming in and that's, you can see that as a validation. Oh, they love our companies and they want to sling tens and hundreds of millions of dollars at us, but they also have a tax advantage. And so what then happens, of course, if we don't have the local investment, is that when those companies are successful, all that capital flows straight back out of Australia. All the value creation disappears from this country. This, I think, has the potential to be a massive problem.

10:58I think it will completely re-gear the Australian start-up sector. And I think we're in an era where everyone is fluid enough to be able to go wherever they want in the world to build a business. And that could have a severe impact on Australian innovation. So I'm a little bit concerned about that. You can read about what the Tech Council had to say. I will be exploring some of the other points on StartupDaily.net in the coming weeks because I think this still has some way to run. But please, Andrew Charlton, Jim Chalmers, Treasury Boffins, have a listen to what the sector is saying because I don't think they're crying wolf on this one.

11:37I started from one position and the more I looked into it, the more problems I found, the more concern I had and we need to get these settings right. Otherwise, a decade of work building Australian tech and startup ecosystem has the potential to disappear with this policy change or policy changes. So on that happy note. Well, I have some funny news. Oh, I want some funny news. Yes, please. So on the 14th coming up in two weeks is Startup Stand Up. Rainong walks into a bar. Out. We have 12 amazing amateur comedians who are actually not so amateur. It's been great working with them and playing some games and exercises to get them comfortable on stage and watching them as a cohort support one another.

12:26It's been really great listening to one another. And so October 14th. There are still tickets available. There are still tickets available. You can get them at startupstandup.com.au. Excellent. And I highly recommend coming and checking out the ecosystem being funny on stage. Yes, and look, if VC doesn't work out for rain, he could probably build a career as a great Australian stand-up. He can. There you go. And Merrick's been great and the whole Punchline Capital team is, so we have a whole new fund firm that's set up called Punchline Capital. Oh, wow. Yeah, check on the website. Oh, excellent.

12:56All right, I will. Well, we might take a quick break. We'll be right back with Rania to talk impact and life as a mum. Founders scale faster on deal. Set up payroll for any business in minutes. hire anyone, anywhere, and get visas handled fast so you can stay focused on scaling. Deal takes care of onboarding, HR, IT, EOR, benefits, and compliance, so your team can grow without borders. It's why more than 37 ,000 fast-growing companies trust Deal to move fast. Visit deal.com slash 360. That's D-E-E-L dot com slash 360. Go away. Welcome back. We are here now with our most interesting guest that I'm very excited to dig into.

13:50We have Rania Alkodamani. Got it. Got it. Who has a very fascinating background in history and stories to tell. She has founded Impact Group International, which I'm personally very interested in. A lot of communications and helping with impact stories. But other stuff behind that, underneath all of her impact, Group International, she was a foreign intelligence advisor at the Office of National Intelligence under Peter Varghese. Long time ago. Long time ago. Brief posting at the Australian Embassy. So you did some time in Washington. It was in 2007. So different times. Free Obama. It was amazing.

14:31Free Obama. I was with DFAT, the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade Media Unit. I love how important of storytelling and has been a media advisor to Kevin Rudd during his time as a foreign minister. I've been to some fun stories to tell, but you won't, will you? Sorry, really. I never told a few. And there's a lot of stuff on the comms, which is so important, especially in the startup scale-up world on how to tell stories, how to tell them right, how to be authentic. And the other thing that I love on your website that you say we only work with people and teams who we would want to have dinner with.

15:07So for me, that says you're really human and people centric and focused. Yep. And I don't work with egos. Don't work with egos. I'll leave now. Yeah. Bye. We're not working. You two have a great time. We got you. We'll hold your ego in check. Keep it in check. so um tell us a little bit more of what brought you all of these this career journey um yeah it's a very as you said it I can realize that there are a lot of threads to that but I think it definitely has been um growing up in a migrant family in Australia um and I spoke briefly about this but my parents came from Syria in the early 1970s um dad was living in Beirut and he had he was trying to migrate somewhere and luckily the Saudi embassy and the Kuwaiti embassy had said to him we're not giving any more visas but you should try the Canadian embassy or the Australian embassy and dad went to mum and said which one and she said Australia because it's not as cold and I think that has driven like my focus on impact because as we've you know seen the Syrian civil war play out and I've still got family there I realize how lucky we are to be in Australia how lucky we have been with our opportunities like my dad has had you know has the education of someone that reached eighth grade but he's got three children that have been to university and I can tell that is so important to him you know the area he moved in Sydney was where the best public schools were at the time it was called Castle Hill he's still there and I think that's what has driven so much focus on impact because I just I'm a maximiser and I don't want to waste time and I also know how lucky I am and so that I'm so lucky to be here in Australia.

16:50It was that, you know, birth lottery. Such a sliding door moment, isn't it? It is. Mum going, yeah, Australia sounds good. It's warmer. Yeah. Weather counts. Exactly. It does warm. And I think the foreign side or the international relations side came from having to watch SBS news as a very young child all the time and not being able to watch Home and Away or Neighbours because it was often the same time and we only had one TV. So I was always interested in news, in what was going on in the world and in other people's stories. And I remember getting to about year 11 and year 12 and thinking, gosh, the best job would be editing those end-of-year stories.

17:34You know, 7.30 Report does the end-of-year flashbacks or Channel 7 does them and I'm like, oh, that is just like the coolest thing ever. So I think that's what's drawn me to storytelling in particular, but also there's a whole lot of the international relations side that I did at the beginning of my career because, you know, ultimately because of my parents and I was always interested in what was going on in the world. I can't help thinking that, you know, over the period through the 2000s, early 2000s, first 22 decades, there was one Bashar al-Assad running Syria for something like 25 years and we went through how many prime ministers?

18:13Yeah, and before that, God bless democracy. Yeah, yeah, and absolutely. And we're just like, you know, even voting, we've got compulsory voting here and thank God because we have a great democracy but it's I feel that is so important we should really understand the value of that which is one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you because at Spark Festival last week you brought up uh very much the same message that I did at the Best in Tech Awards uh the week before which was you need to go and talk to your local politicians as a founder you need to engage you need to be front of mind with them as they discuss and debate policy.

18:54Just talk a little bit about that and reinforce that message. Yeah okay so I think we have a very vibrant startup community in Australia but there isn't the kind of there isn't the kind of understanding of how kind of politics works and the importance of engaging with politicians and government and bureaucracy. I think I'm not a founder of anything. I'm not an ideator. I am the person that helps them. You're the executor. I'm an executor or a storyteller But I think what I really want founders to understand is you're really focused on what you're trying to fix and you're really focused on that problem solving.

19:32But one day you're going to need something to do with government. There is regulation throughout everything. So at one point you're going to need that. And the moment to engage with a politician or government or bureaucracy or department isn't the time you actually need something. It's to have developed that relationship first. and when I was at Spark Festival I said this, and I truly believe it and it's not a meaning, politicians are like children. When your child is having a tantrum, the first thing you need, and not that they always have tantrums or politicians do, but the first thing you have to do is connect with them and so you connect before you try and get them to do what you want them to do and that's really important with politicians as well.

20:16Let them know who you are and what you're on about before you need to ask them for something so you've got that relationship. And at least at the very beginning, I know that politics can seem really daunting and you don't know which ministers to see or how to get in and you don't have a pass to go to Parliament House. Just go see your local member. At the very beginning, where your office is based or where your startup is based or where you live, just make an appointment and go tell them your story. and that is going to start a relationship and it will start to open the doors when you need them.

20:51And I would say you need to do the three tiers. So, yes, there's your federal MP. Yeah. So if you're going to be talking about capital gains or tax policy more broadly, then there's going to be your state MP and that can have a lot to do with planning. But you should also talk to the mayor and find out who your councillors are in the area as well as a business person because I think it's such an important part. again they're a little bit more than roads rates and rubbish yeah the council teams so having that engagement and being able to have that access to it also means that when you do have a bureaucratic challenge you're able to I wouldn't say jump the queue but certainly you have that relationship where you can say to your local councillor or the mayor or deputy mayor hey listen I'm what should I do here I'm having a little bit of a you know that my DA is taking longer to get through than I'd hoped or whatever it is.

21:44Absolutely. And that is really important because you can actually ask your local member, look, I'm having problems with this, whichever, you know, a councillor, state MP or federal MP, but you can ask them, I'm having an issue with this, can you please write to this minister or whatever? Like that is something that your member is there to do. You know, my parents are receiving aged care support and for them to get assessed took forever and I was trying every single avenue and eventually I wrote to the MP, the local MP in Castle Hill, they didn't necessarily get the cue jumped, but they basically, Alex Hawke wrote to the advocacy, and that's what you need, but that's what their job is.

22:25And I actually want people to understand they have a job to do for you and us and all of us, and you just have to help them with that by at least telling them who you are and then working out how they can help when you may need that. Yeah, you kind of answered my question I was going to ask, and I'm wondering if you have another story of where that connection and the building the relationships works as a storyteller, a case study that really worked. One of your parents is a great one, but any other places? Yeah, so I think a number of ones that I've worked with with my clients. So I'm not a lobbyist, but I always put my clients in touch with the people I know that can do a good job if they need it.

23:03But at the very basic level, for example, you know, Amber Electricity, they were one of my, you know, an early client in the clean energy space for me. They're much too big now, so I don't work with them and they're a great company and I love what they do. But I remember early on, you know, for them to try and get in front of Chris Bowen or to tell Chris Bowen what was going on in the space, you know, five years ago that they were talking about vehicle to grid. And now we actually have, you know, a policy and they're actually getting support from the federal government to deliver a vehicle to grid like that's taken a long time but you know they were very that they realized that there was a lot of regulation that needed to be worked through and they you know engaged where they had to um another client former client um uh was called flotation energy and unfortunately they're no longer in australia they're a wind farm um they didn't get a license in gippsland but they had to engage very early on with, you know, the state government, local government in Gippsland, state government and then also federal government.

24:13There will be many reasons why you need to do this at some point but I think my key message at Spark was do it early before you need to ask for something. Are there any tips or tricks or secrets to get in there to get to the parliament, the member or their team or how do you get up the chain? So you don't necessarily get up the chain, but this is how I would do it and I would also, I would basically, so let's just work through it. Say you need to get to, say, you know, let's say the Minister for Health. We've got a medical text starter. And you want to have a meeting with him. He's obviously, you work out when are the parliamentary sitting days.

24:56So you go to the Parliament House website and you download the parliamentary sitting days. Then you can see from the calendar when they're sitting in Parliament, which means when they're in Canberra, or when they're going to be technically in their home state. So often it's much easier for people to get to Canberra, organise a meeting for when they're there because that's when they have a lot of meetings. It also means they're very busy, which can be a pain in the bum. So if you can try and do it out of sitting and go to them in their own office, that's probably, electorate office, that's probably better.

25:29Then the next thing I would do is pick up the phone and find out who the chief of staff is. And I would also find out who the policy advisor is. And then I would work out their email address. And it's always firstname.surnameathealth.gov.au. If it's another, so for example. Or at abh.gov. Yeah, or abh.gov.au is a great one. but often when you're in a ministerial office, that one gets missed. So when I worked in Kevin Rudd's office, I didn't even look at my APH email. I don't even actually know if I had one. I was rania.alkadamani at dfat.gov.au. So if you're in a, you know, if you have an industry or a ministerial office, you need to use that one.

26:09If you're a local member, so for example, my local member is Zali Stegall. I live in Manly and I wanted to reach out to her office. It would be first.surname at aph.gov.au and I would say subject line um I'm a resident of your electorate or to get their attention because then they'll open it um and if you're not a resident of the electorate but you want to meet a minister for example I would put in the subject line um important meeting to discuss accessible health care I don't you know whatever the whatever you're trying to solve um and then you have to actually follow up like you actually have to do a bit of stalking so get ready to do that and don't feel bad about it um and the way you stalk and follow up is if you haven't had anything within a week to two weeks you call up and you try and find out what's going on you re-email and then you keep on persisting with that love it's human think of it like getting investment it's it's a form of investment oh absolutely and you have to like be willing to be i guess feel rejected but you just have to keep on pushing And be human rather than having your AIs write things and follow up as a human API.

27:21There are no brainers, but they're really important ways of getting in touch with people you need to get in touch with. Yeah. So going to AI on this, I think there's a great role for AI to play in the research side of it, which is tell me the five ministers or tell me the five members of parliament that would be interested in my product, my facility, what I'm delivering. You know, like you can use AI, I think, for that type of stuff to help you sift through stuff you don't know. Have a look at Hansard and tell me the five things this particular MP or senator is most passionate and interested in.

27:55Yeah. And also look at the opening commencement speeches. So every MP and every senator, whenever they enter parliament, they will have one. And look at who they thank because then you know who influences them. Look at who helps support to get them here because they will all have those other influences in parliament and that helps you navigate you know your own network of how you get that influence and there's a little bit of ego boosting in there too people love to hear other people talk about nicely about themselves I've sung you've done this you've done a great stuff so you're making that connection as well yeah absolutely or I've loved your I loved your commencement speech where you said this about being committed to homeless you know homelessness or whatever.

28:40So tell us a little bit about politicians. You studied the species. Yes, they're interesting. What surprised you? What conclusions did you reach during your time? Because for anyone who works in parliament, it is insane. It is the most extraordinary environment in terms of pressures, demands, snatching attention, which again goes back to what, as a founder you're trying to address in getting their attention um there is so much going on and in some ways whilst the politicians tend to be a little bit older most of their teams are quite young because it's very much a young person's game it's grueling yeah yeah um so i worked for kevin rudd um when he was foreign minister and i i loved working for kevin and i have a really great relationship with kevin i think he's a wonderful you know human i regret my time where I didn't pay enough attention because I'd be sitting there in a meeting, you know, with the Chinese foreign minister.

29:41They were talking about the most amazing things. And all I was thinking about was, okay, which journalist do I have to make sure I get in contact with to organize the interview the next day? Or where's the car? Which entry is the car going to come from so we can get out smoothly? Like I was just always thinking about the next thing. And I should have been there listening to some, you know, geopolitical things play out right in front of me. And I just, that is the the thing I regret the most what what politicians are well Kevin in particular was he was really clever really bright and I also knew how to work with him so often in the car he would just want silence and that's totally fine you don't want to be talked at all the time you're going for meeting meeting I just wait to see what he needed next um between our meetings or interviews and, you know, my job was to give that to him.

30:30With Kevin, and this is the politician I work for, so I'm going to speak specifically about him, if he asked me a question I didn't know, I would say I don't know and that's totally fine. Like he just wanted certainty. What has surprised me about politicians, this has been many of the politicians I worked with during Kevin's time as foreign minister are now, you know, in parliament now with ministerial positions. I'm interested to see that some of them are a bit different. I don't know if that's just, you know, having been out of government for so long, not as committed to their values that I thought they could be or that they were.

31:08Just the shift, I guess, age, time, maybe social media. I don't know what it is, but I think there's been a bit of a difference with some of the personalities I've seen. Paul Fletcher at the closing discussions we had at Spark talked about how, let's say, the training ground for politicians now is a little bit different. So many of them are theoretically trained rather than practically is probably the best way to describe it. I think that's absolutely spot on. And I think, and this goes back to why it's important for, you know, founders or startups to meet their politicians, because a lot of them haven't had a real job or, you know, a job where you have a boss that isn't a party boss or whatever.

31:54Like, you have to tell them what it's like in the real world um and by real world i mean like what what are the challenges like you've got to that politicians have to fundraise but they don't like they have a party in a sense to help them when you're a founder you have to capital raise you have to like say your own investment blood sweat and tears diluted you have to take risks sometimes you don't even know if you're going to have like dinner that night um you've got a lot stuff on your mind in terms of the workers you have and employees you have and making sure you can even make payroll sometimes like these are these are core issues that you know startups founders face day to day that politicians wouldn't be facing many of them at least um there are times when i do think that uh being part of major parties very much like being back in primary school because you have the whip as your teacher or head prefect who says, right, be here, do this.

32:51And so many people around you are all guiding what you do and how you do it. Now, you do have some autonomy in all of that as well, but there's a lot of regimentation in what goes on, whereas when you're a founder, everything is freestyle, everything is off-piste. It's all over the place. Yeah, and it's scary as well. And I want to, you know, back to your background and your love of storytelling, how important and what kind of tools that these founders need. You can't show up asking with this frenetics, you know, frantic what's happening, but the storytelling part of it and putting together the storytelling.

33:27So I think what I would always, I'm just going to take this from Simon Sinek, which is go to your why. And for a founder, you have created something or started something to solve a problem. What is it that drove you? Like what is it? this is what is it that made you take a risk to create something and why do you believe so much in it and why does this exist and I think those are the stories you have to be telling politicians because they can see you know then they can understand that you're doing some value creation as well um it's it's not solely about you know building a business to create an exit But I think truly most startup founders, 99.9 % of them would be starting something up to try and solve a problem and they're not thinking about making squillions.

34:13And do you have any examples or stories that you've helped founders or teams or organizations or even in government? Okay. Yes, there are so many. So I think with Amber, for example, if we go back to them, we can see how much they've grown. you know when I first met Dan Adams and I wonder if this is still on their website you know the the idea for Amber to be able to get wholesale electricity to normal consumers and for them to be able to control their energy usage that came on a surfing trip he had I think with Christopher Adams in is it Colombia somewhere I don't know somewhere in South America where they surf Nicaragua not there not there it was south yeah it wasn't after the ayahuasca I served in Nicaragua.

34:56Oh, excellent. Yeah. And that's where he came up with the idea. They spent three weeks working on that business plan. And, you know, he'd left a job. He was an engineer. He'd left a job at Tesla as well. And then he decided to go all in on this. Like that's an amazing story. And look what he's built, well, they've built, and they're investors, not just for Australia, but they're expanding internationally. um and that goes to their like I remember when we used to pitch the stories out back in the day before they were a name um it would be you know two guys set this up after a surfing trip in South America and this is why they're doing it like that's a great story people want to connect to that um not we saw a problem with the grid and we wanted to solve it and we wanted to make sure that people could utilize an app to manage their energy usage at, you know, most efficient times and stabilize the grid.

35:57That's not the story. We don't want to hear that story. Politicians don't want to hear that story either. I love your learning of pausing and paying attention in a meeting and being present. And I'm just curious if you if your behavior has changed now currently because of that reflection, where you find yourself more present?

36:18um yeah I guess I yeah I to an extent I do but I I feel like I I am I am unfortunately still always thinking about what's coming next but that is that is what my personality type is because I'm always like that's a form of problem solving I guess but it's also like it you know even with parenting like I can see I can see that we're going to need all these snacks like in two hours time why haven't you packed the snacks um like I find it hard to be solely in the moment but I especially with that time with Kevin I regret that so much because I feel like I could have learned so much it's almost like a remember remember the future like knowing when to be present yeah oh definitely yeah I feel like if anyone's working with a foreign minister now like pay attention then don't don't think about the where the car's going to pick you up from um let's go into the parenting thing that you just mentioned because when we ask everyone for a little bit of a bio before they come on the show and you're I have to say one of the few people who actually did talk about parenting as part of who you are tell me about that experience and how it relates back to how you now act as a business person alongside being a parent Definitely.

37:35Yeah. So being, becoming a mum completely changed me. I was the mum that suffered postnatal depression. I was the mum who had the baby that cried all the time. Like you'd go to the mum's groups and all their babies were breastfeeding well and like sitting there like placidly. And my baby was the one screaming and I didn't even want to go to mum's group. I found becoming a mum really hard. And I think that was because of the huge identity shift, not just the hormones. Like I had been this kind of person who traveled the world with a foreign minister and, you know, I worked for Andrew Forrest, traveling the world with him as his head of comms.

38:12And I could work with all of these people and all these difficult business people as well, but I couldn't work out a child. So I felt like a failure. I felt crap. And it was actually one of the first times in my life I'd felt like a failure because I've kind of just you know gone with the flow and kind of done what I'm good at and but only done things I really enjoyed so obviously I was then good at it and then I was this mum and I was like just not understanding what was going on um so I found it really hard and then I remember speaking to the AFR journalist Brad he's not there anymore Brad Thompson and he he could hear when I went back to work and he could hear my voice wasn't right like you just I'm quite normally quite warm and I'd make some jokes and he's like you were right I'm like no like it's been a really tough time and I found it really hard and I had postnatal depression and I you know it took me four months to even do a post on social media about my first child like like I couldn't even do that and he's like you weren't in the lululemons sort of back in the gym within yeah yeah yeah um I didn't even I know I'm an ocean swimmer as well and I remember I used to I would look at the ocean and it would be perfectly still and I didn't even feel like getting in the ocean I'd like call up my friend I'm like I don't even want to get in the ocean and he's like it's all right darling just it's all right just like sit with it like it doesn't matter if you don't want to get in the ocean now um and then Brad told me he's like do you want to do a story about this in the AFR and I'm like yeah actually I do and the reason I did was because all of those people no one told you this could happen like no one told me I could feel like this the whole identity shift like no one and you know I'm I felt like I was this person that had a handle on things and if I could just tell my story to other people so they didn't feel as shit as I did at that time then maybe that will help and I had the most amazing feedback from that and that vulnerability and honesty.

40:12And so in my bio, I'm like, yeah, I've had all these amazing business successes, but that's not who all of who I am now. And this has been so formative in who I am that I'm going to put in there that being a mum has changed me and it's made me completely change how I think about success and things. And I think going back to, you know, storytelling, that's the vulnerability that connects humans. And if someone doesn't want to work with me because of that well I don't want to work with them and so you now have two kids yes and what so where are you now in the in the journey um it's yeah so I my postnatal depression lasted about five months I think four and a half five months once I started sleeping again I got so much better um I was worried about it returning after my second child so when I had Lenny um I had actually prepped things so I had um prepped an appointment I'd had an appointment with my psychologist beforehand to talk through things I even had written down a piece of paper about what I needed and one of the things I needed was order in the house to not feel stressed out you can't really have that I was gonna say nothing says order like two small children no yeah but I think I had it I think you know we were able to manage it quite well and I think I also knew what was going I knew what I was in for I I knew I had to rely on other people like I knew you know we'd already had so much in place that I understand what being a mum was and then I also had a psychologist appointment booked for three weeks later after the hormonal drop um and that was fine and then I that was it I was like I've got this and I felt I was scared of that and I felt worried about going down that path because it was dark um but it was it was great that I didn't and um you know being a mum now is just like I feel like I have to run a military unit sometimes but um and I have Lenny just doesn't want to be dressed at all he just loves being naked loves it loves it um so that is you know it's a joy to battle with like i'm pretty lucky it's part of the fun and felix well he's five now he's five and a half he's going to school next year he's a he's a real um he loves nature he loves exploring things he loves the way wheels work he he just is one of those he wants to know how everything works he sounds like his climate tech engineering i think so i think so he's going to solve problems he's going to he wants to so he solves problems and he's very determined, which is difficult as a mum to deal with.

42:36But, you know, I think that will be one of his strengths as an adult. And, yeah, I tell him about my clients or what they're doing and, you know, I'm glad he enjoys that, hearing about that or hearing, you know, the way, you know, he loves seeing the way an electric car is charged. He loves seeing, you know, the inside of the electricity panel. Like he's curious about all those things. I don't even know what that electricity panel is called. I'm just opening the door. What is that? It's good. The switchboard or whatever. That's right. It sounds like that's good noticing and being present with your kids.

43:17Definitely. Oh, yeah. That's the other thing. Yeah, kids actually make you present because you don't want to be on your phone with them. You don't want to be using technology all around them. So if you're having to sit there and colour in with them like or, you know, I don't know, pretend we're doing this and pretend we're doing that and pretend this is a hovercraft now and it's a toilet roll but you're sitting there pretending. Play school thing. I love it. I love that imagination. Oh, it's amazing. Yeah, it's phenomenal and it's so great where they like suddenly, the floor's lava, mum. Oh, crap, I better jump up.

43:49And that curiosity also is problem solving. It's a massive tool for problem solving. Yeah, it's actually really inspiring. It's a playful purpose. It is a playful purpose. Oh, thank you. So that's what I was going to throw to the pair of you. So what does that play with your children taught you about how you approach business and solve problems? So I think one thing that's taught me though, one thing, I'll just separate that question, which is I am even more particular. You fix everything with a toilet roll. Well, I'm even more particular about who I work with because I don't have enough time now.

44:20So if something's just not going to work for me, I say no. because I'm not going to have this time again. I love my business. I love working with amazing people, but they have to be right up there for me to want to spend time doing that. So that's one thing. In terms of what playing or being with my kids has taught me about dealing with, you know, being in my business and working with my clients, I think it's really what I've learned is really that it's still stories that connect us. Like it is still, it is for me wanting to work with someone, it's about what their story is and if I'm inspired by it.

44:57And then also obviously helping them to tell that to the world or whoever they want to tell it to. But ultimately, no matter how far technology goes and AI goes, I still feel like being human and connecting is such an important thing. Like that is what we need as humans to feel, you know, purposeful, to feel fulfilled. And I think that's, you know, that gives me optimism if we can keep that connection there. I was waiting for that word connection because that's where I worry with all the technology and the future generations, how interactions and relationships and connections are going to look like.

45:34Yeah. I mean, we are the last analog only generation where we didn't have a phone. Yeah. Yep. And I know I still relish in those times of disconnection and being outlaid and trusting that your friend's going to show up at the time you said you were going to show up. But, you know, all of those things as well. Yeah. The behaviour is going to change with it. Now we should just quickly, because we died straight into politics, Impact International, just explain to our listeners and viewers what you get up to and how you help. Yep. So I basically spend my time working with a company or a founder or an NGO, an advocacy organisation, and I help them reach the audiences they want to reach to create the change that they want to change.

46:23So I spend time pitching to journalists, helping them frame their stories, helping them kind of articulate why they exist. I work with, you know, I work with startups. I work with climate advocacy organisations because a lot of my passion is in climate change. So climate tech start-ups as well. And also a little bit of work with medical start-ups. So people that are trying to create affordable and accessible healthcare in Australia. And, you know, every day, the great thing is every day is different. So whether that's trying to get a report to, you know, market in a sense. So telling the story about the report.

47:07I'm proud to say, actually, I don't use any AI in writing in the written work that I do because I'm worried about my own brain development and I just don't want my brain to go. And I've started to see so much difference in the way language is used. You know, I can instantly tell now when something is written by AI and, you know, put publicly. and I can see how easily I switch off and I'm sure others do. But I do definitely use AI to create efficiencies. So, for example, who are the top five influencers in government on this issue or what do I need? You know, if I'm going through a board report or something and I'm researching a company, what are the risks?

47:54What are the five things that I should be thinking about that is going to make a story bad about, you know, this particular company. Talk to me about the why should I care aspect of storytelling because that's where the engagement kicks in. And I'm, a lot of the time I find that people, because they are so obsessed with the problem from their own perspective, don't understand that what they need to be able to do is convince others that this matters deeply to them as well. And, of course, it's one of those things where we're really seeing it right now. And I talked about it again at the Best in Tech Awards where when founders hear AI, they can see opportunity and things to build and amazing solutions.

48:37And on the other side of the equation, there's the people going, that's going to go next to my house and it's going to push my power price up. My kids aren't going to get a job and, you know, what will happen to the water. There are all these different perspectives on an idea and why I should care. Yeah. yeah so that's got you've got two points in that i think on the why you should care i call that the so what so many people come to me and are like oh i've got this great story i'm like so what like i don't care you know this is not going to pass them this is not going to pass the test no one's going to write about this just because you've raised this much or you're doing this or like what is what is your like why the so what why does this actually matter um you know i think Like this also happens a lot, for example, with reports.

49:22When someone writes a report, they release it. It's like so much of the so what is missed. And I think that goes to the fact it's important to someone that's writing it, but they're not thinking about who they're trying to reach. So for me, the core of your question goes to, well, who's your audience and who are you trying to reach? And then working out how the messages you create will work for that audience. and this is where we then we get into issues which are extremely volatile and have you know many angles to it so for on for example as you were mentioning on the data centers you know tech optimists um ai literate people uh these are people that can see how amazing the opportunity is for uh you know data centers tokens chips etc but there are communities there that don't want these things next to them.

50:14And what is that fear from? Is it just because something's ugly, like we've seen this with transmission lines, because it makes a noise and they don't want it in their community? Is it because they actually don't know how they're going to benefit from it? And I think this goes to something that while the Australian government has been on the front foot on, you know, AI regulation, we still don't know where we're going to get the clip from. And I think that's really concerning because people can see jobs at stake, they can also see a whole future that they don't understand and are getting scared by but also nothing's coming back to them.

50:49Well, the genius of the AI story amongst the big US companies that were involved at the moment has gone from, good news, you're not going to lose your job because the AI is going to kill you. Yeah, exactly. And I've gone to that in... What? What the fuck, guys? A period of five months. Is that called superintelligence now? Aren't they renaming it? Put that bit... I still just don't understand what they're trying to achieve with this messaging because none of this is going, oh, that sounds good. I'd like some of that. But I think the problem is this isn't, so if they were my client right now, I'd say this is not a messaging problem.

51:23This is actually a core problem of the business. Like what are you trying to achieve? Like what is the actual goal here? And I think this is where people come to you and say, oh, we need a marketing campaign or a messaging campaign. It's like actually no. There's foundational problems. And I think that's where we're at with AI because we haven't had, you know, those conversations and we don't know what the guardrails are. And if they're even because what we've seen happen with Meta and, you know, TikTok and Google X, we know how far it can go and we don't want that anymore. So I think that's why there's a massive backlash.

52:03And going back to parenting, I'd make the point that, well, if your kids are a bit shit, then a lot of people look around and go, well, that's the parents. What's gone wrong with the parenting and the guardrails from the parents there? What boundaries are they set and engaged with the kids properly? Yeah. The weird part about what's happening in AI is that the Dario's and the Sam's and everyone in this whole thing is going, oh, my God, the kid's mucking up. I don't know what to do. It's like they're your fucking kids. pull them into order. Absolutely. You set the whole thing up that they are in your boundaries so make sure the boundaries work.

52:40Well, even worse, they're saying, you know, regulate us. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. It's not all about us regulating you. Like, exactly, pull them into line. I'm not going to teach you how to parents. For me, it goes back to also critical thinking skills in general. When Ask G's came out when I was teaching back in the late 90s and the answers were all out there, it's like how to be a critical thinker. It's harder now because everything looks so real and believable. But that's coming, I think, really far away from the human part of being critical. Does that resonate with me? Is that real? You know, asking all those questions is the other challenge that all this is bringing in.

53:15Yeah, I'm really concerned about our lack of critical thinking. And that's why I use it. You know, I use AI carefully in the sense I think it's fantastic. It's an amazing tool and there's a lot of efficiencies. But I'm so worried about my brain going. I'm with you on that but I and I'm at the moment telling myself the story that one of the conversations we had here which is like having done some things tens of thousands of times am I getting the AI to do some of those things for me now knowing that the skill base is there yeah and so it leaves me room for the higher thinking yeah sure and that's the way I'm starting to prioritize the engagement so the the bottom end stuff please yes automate it thank you very much and then I'll get on to the bit that really matters where I can bring my knowledge and experience to the table.

54:01Yes, no, absolutely. I think for me though, writing a story or writing, you know, even a press release, that's the critical thinking pathway of what is the so what, what is the actual story, that's where I add value. And sure, an AI could do that, but it's, you know, your brain is like if you don't use it, you lose it. And so that's what I'm conscious of. I remember, you know, feeling the synapses being created, like how to read a map. We had to read a map without technology. That skill set has changed. I remember in first grade, my teacher, Mrs. Saltes, we had abacuses, abacuses, like to do math.

54:38So those are the foundational fundamental things that, you know, how we had to learn. And I think now, again, generations after us, where are they starting? Where is their foundation? Well, this is getting so upbeat at this point in time. So what's your take on where you think the AI path will go? Because it is front and centre of start-ups right now. That's a big question.

55:05For me it has to just go back to hope that we don't, am I allowed to swear on this? Yes. That we don't fuck it up. So I just have to be hopeful that we don't fuck it up and that, you know, what we've seen, you know, with education, for example, for a generation which has been all digitised, We know that the results aren't there. So let's hope we don't fuck it up in that way. That the promise follows through. There's immense potential. There is so much potential. But I just, for me, it goes back to, well, what does being human look like? And I think I don't even know what that looks like. Like I don't even know what it's going to be like in five years.

55:47Well, let's give you the option to create it. You have gotten that job at SBS, creating the end of the real, end of the year real okay okay we are a year later we are sitting here again you're back on the podcast you're here back in 10 years what does it look like what is the story 2036 so i think in 10 years we've actually then had we're in the present talk in the present it's a whole different okay we're it's been you know the last 10 years has been really volatile we've seen so many extremes with, you know, right politics, left politics. But basically the pendulum swung back to the middle. We realise, everyone now agrees, definitely climate change is real because we're suffering a lot of the impacts.

56:33A lot of our nature has been impacted and, you know, gone. We've had melting ice caps. But the great news is that, you know, coal is completely out of Australia's economy. for example, in Australia. The US has 80 % renewable penetration. The Middle East is probably still fucked. But China and the US are at a good place now because everything that they feared is now kind of balanced out and there's no clear winner in the AI race and they realised that they didn't have to have a clear winner. Now, I'm going to steal your one. Go ahead. The Flearnings, which is the failures you've had and what you've learnt from them.

57:18Tell us about a couple of Flearnings you've had along the way. I know I've definitely had Flearnings, but I just don't think about them too much. I mean, you know, like basic things. On a Saturday morning when I was working for Andrew Forrest, a journalist called me up and I didn't tell him, we're on background, and then he printed what I said. Oh. um like but it's saturday morning i'm like tired like i'm just having a conversation with you most journalists i deal with we have a conversation you're not printing something unless i give it to you in quotes so i've learned from that that um be really clear actually there's an interesting one when i was on the board of vulcan there was a um and vulcan energy is a asx listed company and it was when i joined it was a startup so very very early on um and it was doing really well So when I joined, the share price was about 17 cents.

58:12And at this point in time, which was, I think, 2021 or two, I can't remember exactly, it had got up to$15. Is it when the Gina and her son came in on? Yeah, yeah. And a short report came out on it. A short seller came out. And it was brutal. And the share price just went choo-choo-choo-choo-choo-choo-choo-choo. but we had to make a decision as a board you know there were two decisions to be made one was what we communicated at that time and the other was um the whether we took the short seller to court which we actually did and he had to retract it but the first learning was I feel like we could have responded quicker because we thought we thought everything the short seller was saying was absolute shit.

58:58Why should we give it, you know, why should we elevate its relevance, I guess, by responding to it and we should have responded quicker. So if someone screams fire and there is no fire, it's probably important to point it out. Yeah, but point it out not just saying that there's no fire but actually like you have to go with an ASX company, you have to go through all the points very quickly. And that's the difference I think in the tech startup world and being on the ASX. Did you get the ASX speeding ticket at the time? No, I suppose it's the opposite direction. No, we didn't. No, we've had a speeding.

59:33The please explain. Yeah, we've had a please explain. That was all like there were, that was all fine. But, yeah, I remember that time and that was just like, oh, my gosh, this is, yeah, it's interesting. Which, of course, the thing about being a short seller is that's exactly what you want to have happen. You want the share price to tank because that's how you make money. So it's kind of like you trip someone up because you'll benefit from it. And ironically he is now, that short seller is on the chief technology officer of a direct lithium extraction company, which is the technology he said would never work.

1:00:11Over the irony. I know, I know, I know. Over to you. Do you want to steal my question? I'm going to steal your question. We love to end it this way. Okay. What brings you joy? So many things. Swimming in the ocean, giggles with my kids, great lasagna, hot chips. On the same plate? Could be. Yeah. I'm just like thinking everything. Dark chocolate. So I've recently done a strengths assessment, which was amazing, to work out what my strengths are. And it's like focus on your five to ten. We're talking about here rather than sort of in the gym. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The strength finders. It's been really interesting.

1:00:51I'd highly recommend it. It's called the Gallup Strength Assessment. But what has been so refreshing about this is it's like this is who you are and own it. And you know what I am? I'm someone that doesn't like idle chit-chat. And I am, I'm far like an owner. I'm not going to chat to you at a party just idly. Let's hang out. It's just so nice to go, right, this is who I am. I like deep connection. I like humans. And I don't want to just have idle chit-chat. But so connecting with people but not in an idle chit-chat way brings me immense joy. Well, I don't think this has been much of an idle chit-chat today.

1:01:29No, no, this has been great. No, this has been great. Thanks for playing the games. Yes, it's been great to have you on. And I look forward to hearing the stories of 15-year-old Felix. Come back. Yeah, and after 10 years. Yeah, the 10 year. I know. Yeah, actually 15-year-old Felix will be 10 years, of course. My maths is terrible. Oh, gosh. Yeah, I hope I've done a good job. But what an amazing place. I still go back to when Archie was born. My thing was I have never been more afraid but more hopeful for the world. Yeah. And that was 2005. And here we are and it's pretty amazing and he's an extraordinary young man.

1:02:03So you get there. Yeah. You get there. That's the thing I'd say. And the hopefulness I think is really important because if you don't have that, like it's all going to shit. Obama had a point. He did. He did. Well, that is it for Startup 360 this week. You got any fab plans? How's the inner west going? I am now in the unpacking mode and making sure everything fits. And Hershey is enjoying the life of parks. She's very happy. Have you taken her down to Callum Park yet? Not yet, but we've been to where Cafe Bones. Oh, yeah. We go to a park nearby. Everyone is so friendly. Like I can talk to people and meet the dogs.

1:02:43The inner westies are not a bad lot. They are not a bad lot so far. And I understand there's more dogs than kids, I was told. Yes. Well, that's because it's upper socioeconomic so they can afford to have pets. It's like, you know, if you don't have enough money, you can't live in Manly. We have a couple of kids instead. Well, I don't have the kids. I have the pet. But that is it for the show for this week. Of course, this is Smart Co Media Production, produced and edited by the fantastic Matt Jackson. Oh, my gosh. the Grand Finals on the Rugby League Grand Final this weekend. Matt, who's going to win?

1:03:17The Knights have got it. Well, that'll be a great fairy tale story, actually. This is a team that went from the bottom of the ladder last year to potentially winning the Grand Final against East this weekend. So we'll see how that plays out. Thank you also to Ella Walsh, of course, to James Vass and to Deal for their support. We really appreciate it. Don't forget to subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or you can watch on YouTube. and do head to startupdaily.net for all the latest news. Sign up for our newsletters. I send you one on a Tuesday. I send you one on a Thursday. And I send you one on a Saturday with a note of all the big things that have happened in the week so you can stay on track with what's happening.

1:03:53Go over a coffee and a nice inner west cafe with your dog. Yeah, call me up. I'd love to. All right. You have a great weekend. We'll see you next Friday. Bye for now. Bye.