Why leadership means you don’t have the answers

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0:45Hello and welcome. Budra Gamawara from the Gadigal lands here in Sydney. It's time for Startup360. I am Simon Thompson, editor of StartupDaily.net And I am thrilled to announce, to introduce my new permanent, for real, fair dinkum, sparkling co-host of Startup360. Ladies and gentlemen, it's... Julie Trowell. Well done. Congratulations. Majella has gone off to pursue her career in VC. So we had a chance to catch up and she's focusing on the next stage of her adventures. and I am absolutely honoured and delighted that you are prepared to hang around with me. And you've kind of grown used to. You've learned to tolerate me, haven't you?

1:35I really enjoy this. So I think the pleasure is mutual to be here. You have had some pretty amazing co-hosts, so I'm proud to fill the shoes or flip-flops of your others. Now we've also had some pretty amazing guests. So tell me, Julie, who is our guest this week? I am really thrilled to have Bobby Malab this week, co-founder of Mentor Walks, of which where I am a mentor and have experienced all the things she talks about, of the light bulb going on and helping others and being helped yourself in the process of mentoring others. Do you know what? I remember Majella sitting in that chair, you sitting in that one, and we talked about mentor walks at that point in time.

2:20We did. Here I am. We've come full circle. We have. How amazing. Now, before we go any further, I do want to say that Startup360 is supported by Deal, Hire, Manage and Pay Anyone, Anywhere. Which leads me to the Deal spiel for this week. I suppose we should do the next chapter of the Firmest Story. If you remember, last week it was Thursday when we were talking about whether the deal was going to be off or on. Less than 24 hours later, the deal was off. It was all over, bar the shouting. And, well, there's been a lot of shouting since, I have to say, a few recriminations. Interestingly, the founder of Firmus, this is the AI factory maker who has plans for Asia and around Australia, nearly$100 billion worth of projects, $51 billion worth of projects in the next two years.

3:16For a quick recap,$44 billion valuation, looking to raise$7 billion. At the start of last week, the four banks involved, three of them with Morgan in the name, were saying everyone's in, it's already oversubscribed, you know, last chance, hurry, hurry, hurry. Kind of sounds a little bit like one of those late night Demtel ads, you know, first 100 callers get a free steak knife. Well, it turns out that no one really wanted to buy at$11 a share in the end. Then there was talk, as we mentioned last week at nine. And at one stage, there was speculation it was getting around$6 or$5.25. Well, none of this worked.

3:56And in the end, the float was pulled. No$7 billion, no$200 million in fees for all of the bankers and underwriters involved. And there's been a bit of fallout. Mass Group, regional New South Wales heating and air conditioning business, that was a key investor, had about 3.2%. and a billion dollars worth of work orders. They are ASICs listed and they were absolutely hammered, lost about a third of the value in the business as that all went down. Of course, Firmus is now talking about listing on the NASDAQ. Maybe the Americans will appreciate them. I think that will be an interesting struggle to find any leftover cash if everyone goes all in on the$100 billion Anthropic float because I reckon if they get that one across the line at their$2 trillion valuation, probably OpenAI will race to the finish line as quickly as possible too.

4:54So a little Aussie business that really has, as I've said and I'll say it again, a valuation bigger than or worse and stock levels at the size of a corner store, 2.5 % rollout of their ambition at this point in time from Neo Fight Neo Cloud Builders. I think there's a long way to go on this one in terms of the twists and turns. But I'm not sure that the US will be a market that goes shut up and take my money for some Australians who have been hustling fast and taking a business from less than$2 billion valuation to supposedly$44 billion in less than 12 months. It's just the numbers, you know. The maths, the maths, as they say.

5:42There's a lot of promise. You have to, if you're the sort of person who was buying Board 8 Yacht Club NFTs four or five years ago, then perhaps this one might also be appealing. But I'm not sure that after this attempt falling over two weeks before it was due to list on the ASX, I think a few people have got a bloody nose out of this one. and there will be a lot more scrutiny of the business and how it's going and what's going on. And then there's the broader social licence aspects of it because, of course, we've had the protests down in Tasmania, we've had the protests in South Australia at Talon Bend where they would have built.

6:25There's a lot going on and even there are reports today of day one, which is the business building in Asia for them but some others. They're also looking to list in the US. And it seems like there are a few issues emerging around the builds in Asia at the moment. Now, that's not necessarily the firmest ones. But the company that's doing it is starting to have some clouds gather around it too as it looks to go public. So there's a lot of balls in the air and or let's say plate spinning. And if you remember all of those guys who run along and keep spinning the plate on the stick as it starts to wobble and looks like potentially falling down, you're going to be running a lot from one end of the room to the other to keep all of those plates spinning and it's going to be a massive challenge, I think.

7:13And NVIDIA, of course, is in the thick of all of this as well, along with OpenAI. But the other one, which also involves firmness to some extent, was the Cutthrough Venture Q3 funding report that came out this week. Chris Gilling put, again, another comprehensive analysis of what's been going on together. the headline number is a record in the six years that cut through venture has been doing this 4.2 billion across 78 venture deals and 14 accelerator rounds 22 percent above the previous quarterly peak in q3 2021 but the punchline here is of course 2.85 billion of that was the firmest raise in August, which is 69 % of that.

7:57So you've got 30 % or so to share amongst the others. And then as you start to break it down, the top 10, and I did take firmness out of the numbers because it's such an outlier and everything that's going on. Because even to compare it to 12 months ago, when they raised$330 million, that skewed that Q3 in 2025. But there is one, one consistent number through the whole thing women yeah yeah you're not getting any money i wish the story was different i wish things looked different to how they should but yet again there were more deals interestingly so let's just say it's not a pipeline problem there are women around that we can invest in but the deals remain likely solving social challenges look and i suppose and and to give a little bit of the benefit of the doubt there i would also say that they are probably earlier stage businesses because when you look at the top 10 we're talking about cover genius now i'm not sure if i certainly it's not a startup or i i don't see it so much as a venture-backed business anymore and it's certainly not an australian one now i i call it in Expat InsureTech, great business.

9:17But, you know, that was 143 mil. Heidi Series C, 140 a couple of weeks ago. Amber Electrics Series E, 79. Fintech's Constantinople, 62 million. FarmBot, which scraped into the top ten after he took Firmus out, has also moved over as a Delaware business and is setting up an HQ in Fort Worth in Texas. They were a mirroredeat company, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, they've done well from Queensland to Texas. But that was the other thing I noticed in all of this. There was GridSite, HEO, Jet Zero to round out the top 10. So there's a lot of deep tech in there. It's not all AI. The AI number in the end, interestingly enough, was only$675 million.

10:03And nearly two thirds of that, 65%, was rounds involving AI-first or AI-enabled companies. Female and mixed-founded teams raised$114 million, down 14 % from 12 months earlier. And their share of capital fell from about 18 % to 9%, despite accounting for 32 % of the quarter's deals. And as the cut-through venture report said, participation improved faster than access to large checks. So the other interesting thing, and I'll just finish on this, is if you happen to be a VCLP and you were thinking of buying yourself a super yacht to sort of swan around drinking gin on Sydney Harbour this summer, it is a little bit tough because 65 % of funds said their backers viewed venture less favourably than a year ago and 71 % of the funds had no exits in 2026.

11:02Nine months and no exits. I reckon now. Yep. Oh, just a lilo. I reckon a lilo and down the snowy river in summer. That's great fun and won't cost you any more than what you can buy at Bunnings or Aldi. So if you are an LP still waiting for Canva to float, don't worry. We can get you on the water for under$10. Give me a buzz and we'll help you out. But shall we take a quick break and we'll be right back to speak with Bobbie? Yes, good idea. Okay, don't go away. Simon and his favourite co-host Julie will be right back with Bobbie Mullen. Founders scale faster on Deal. Set up payroll for any business in minutes.

11:42Hire anyone, anywhere and get visas handled fast so you can stay focused on scaling. Deal takes care of onboarding, HR, IT, EOR, benefits and compliance so your team can grow without borders. It's why more than 37 ,000 fast-growing companies trust Deal to move fast. Visit deal.com slash 360. That's D-E-E-L dot com slash 360.

12:15Welcome back. And I am thrilled to introduce my friend and an amazing woman that does amazing things in Australia for women. That doesn't narrow it down, I have to say. It doesn't. No. Lots of amazing women do amazing things in Australia. There are, but we have one with us right now that we have 50 minutes to chat with. and Bobby Malab, who I have met through MentorWalks, because I am a mentor, but lots of other things, and I will let her go through and talk about how that came about and the story of MentorWalks and how it impacts women across not just Australia, but the world. She is founder and chair of Malab, a globally awarded content and communications agency, and co-founder of MentorWalks with Adina Jacobs, also another amazing woman.

13:03She was appointed member of the Order of Australia in 2020, right before COVID, for three things that are really important for her for significant service to women, publishing and philanthropy. She's a juror in the International Cartier's Women's Initiative Awards for entrepreneurs and spent a year, this was also quite interesting, a year in the U.S. at Harvard as a fellow of the Advanced Leadership Initiative. So tell us your story. What sparked your journey that brought you to doing mentor walks and getting this amazing award in Harvard? I don't think it's a single thing that sparked my journey, but I very much come from a family, one of entrepreneurs, and two where contribution community to community has always has just been something that people in my family did.

13:55So I sort of, when I describe myself these days, I've got one foot in the for-profit world, one foot in the not-for-profit world, and I just toggle between the two, doing really interesting things with really interesting people. So that is my story. But it started as a journalist. My very first job actually out of university, I went to Melbourne University, was in marketing. and after about a year I decided that I loved it but I had always secretly wanted to be a journalist so there you go Simon. I'm just I'm just thinking right now Bobby there's hope for me yet yes I could one day turn out like you.

14:34Yeah well I always have this you know thought that if ever I get stranded on a desert island and I have to choose who's who I'm going to be there with it is always going to be with a bunch of journalists because they are hands down the most interesting informed curious and fun group of people you could find. So anyway, so I started my career really in journalism and worked in business journalism and then general journalism. Then I worked for a fast growing media company and was one of those moments where they were really growing fast at a time when I was able to grow fast too. So I had lots of opportunities with them.

15:12It took me from Melbourne to Canberra when Canberra at that time it was not the city it is today and I basically turned to my boss and said after a year you need to get me out of here or I need to go full stop. So it was a slow way of moving to Sydney although these days I'd be very happy to be in Canberra and I've been in Sydney ever since which is now about 30 years. And so Marlab came about because the work I'd been doing with that media company it was at the time of something called custom publishing. it come out of the direct marketing tradition and it was about how you tell stories to engage your customers and it was a terrific business that I really loved I loved having a foot in the corporate world but not actually spending my day-to-day in the corporate world I always found it a fascinating place to be working with and I like the storytelling element of it so that was the beginning of Malab, which is now a communications company that specialises in B2B.

16:12We have offices all around Australia and in Singapore and work with a lot of globals and are very expert at working with professional associations. And that business, which is almost 30 years old, which I chair, I haven't been CEO for a while, is really the platform that's allowed me to play a role in the not-for-profit space. and that's been a really fun, great journey. So I might breathe there and see where you'd like to take this conversation. Well, I'm noticing one thing. Many of the people we have had on here are all storytellers. Important. It's a really important thing. I would then love to go and hear how the story of how Mentor Walks was born because it's 10 years old.

16:58Yep. The Sydney Walk is having its 100th walk this month. It is. Oh, wow. Yeah. And I've been there for about nine years, so I'm happy to say that. So how was it born? Okay. So the first thing I want to say is it's a shame Adina Jacobs, my co-founder, isn't here with me because not only is she an exceptional, fabulous woman, but working with her and having founded a business solo and then founding a business with a great co-founder, the difference in the fun quotient is enormous. so I really want to pay tribute to her and what how great it is to collaborate with someone as fantastic a great co-founder yeah let's let's pull on that thread just for a second about like what makes her a great co-founder well she has very complementary skills we've 100 % got each other's back we're very much whole of life so it's not just about what's going on in your business world but beyond that and I think we have enormous respect for each other so we're very complimentary and also I think it's about fun as well so there's a lot of a lot of that and the story of MentorWalks which I'll just explain what it is.

18:11MentorWalks is a walk and talk mentoring program that's giving career women access to mentoring at scale and it is about helping career women have access to senior women in their city who can give them guidance but also giving them an opportunity to meet like-minded women and peers and build their community and network and we really want mentoring and places to have conversations places where you can ask questions that is so hard in a lot of workplaces where there isn't that either people to have those conversations with or it's not safe to. And I also firmly believe that having a lot of different diverse role models in your world is so important.

18:55Our careers are not ladders, they're lattices. And the more we can be exposed to people who have done things differently, the better it is for all of us, for all the questions that we're facing. So the mission of Mental Walks is really to help women have that access to people who can guide them in those connections. And we also want women to understand that networking is not a dirty word. I think, you know, it's really about building your community and being there for other people, as well as them being there for you. And we all know that it's people that make your world and that having a place where you can ask for help and also offer it is a really important thing.

19:39So Mental Walks is now in 19 cities. We just launched it in San Francisco three weeks ago. It's our first US location. And it also operates across Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, UAE and Canada. And when Adina and I started it in Sydney almost 10 years ago, we had no idea it would become what it was. Both of us had been selected by EY for their Entrepreneurial Winning Women program. I was in the first intake in 2015 and Adina was in the second one. We met in Shanghai at a conference they were running. This is where Michelle Garnot came into it, didn't it? So this is where Michelle was at that conference and Michelle's a very close friend of ours now and she could not have been em on the bund yeah which is sadly closed um but was a you know fantastic story and she's highly you know great restauranteur and great entrepreneur yeah um so michelle was at that conference she asked incredible questions and at the end of the night came up and said would you like to come to my restaurant for dinner and i said i would really love to what's your restaurant and who are you and I had no idea about the genius of this woman but Adina also was invited and Michelle had talked about this thing called mental walks which was a loose collection of chambers of commerce that came together a few times a year where they met in a park and walked and talked and it just happened we got lucky that the Friday she was running we were there she was running one so early early in the morning adina and i get in this rickety cab we go to this park god knows where i get thrown in with one group of people adina gets thrown in with another but i was actively investigating taking my comms business into china and i had conversations with two women who the information they gave me and the people they connected me to it's really saved me six months of work whether i was going to make that move or not and it was evident immediately how impactful this mental walks was so when we got to the gates of the park I looked at Adina and I said blimey this is this is really good and she went yep we said let's take it to Sydney and Michelle goes so many people have said they would no one's done it and we did it three months later we launched in Sydney with her help and her blessing and she stayed a really important part of our journey ever since.

22:11And that's 18 ,000 women later and 19 city was women's later. And we're building a not-for-profit of global scale. We've just developed a licensing model, which is a different model to how we've operated, which really came out of the year that I spent at Harvard that I'll tell you, happy to tell you more about. and San Francisco is the first location under this new licensing model so it's very exciting and we feel we're on the brink of great things as we approach our 10th birthday. I just want to go back to it's walking it's walking and talking and there's something magical about it so in Sydney it's last Friday of every month it's early in the morning oftentimes it's dark or raining but and you pull yourself out of bed or at least I pull myself out of the bed do I want to do this and I always leave just buzzing, not just because of the conversation, but the people there.

23:08I learned from the mentees. Selfishly, I learned just as much from the mentees and the connections there. And I've always wanted to be a mentee, to be perfectly honest, because the mentors that show up are pretty amazing. They're very amazing. So the mentors are by invitation. They're all very, very senior women who have managed teams and they're probably not too many workplace issues that our mentors have dealt with. And we also make sure the mentors represent really diverse sectors. And again, it's about giving women exposure to different role models and different lived experience. And the other thing that's important to add to what Julie said is it's highly curated.

23:50So when you apply to come, we ask you the question you want to discuss and we will put you with the mentor group that we believe you'll have the most productive conversation. So each mentor walks with up to three mentees and it's the collective conversation and chemistry and wisdom where the magic in the program lies. So it's only in most places about$45 to come. It's highly subsidised by our incredible corporate partners and those partners who are organisations like Westpac and MECA and Qantas and Stockland and various others, we're so grateful to them because they understand what giving women an opportunity for that first step into mentorship and that belief in women's leadership and that's what enables it to happen.

24:41I like the pun there too, the first step and then the second, third. Thank you. I've had a long time to practice puns. Yes. I mean it's probably challenging for blokes because being able to walk and talk at the same time. This is why we tend to walk along going, all right, yeah. all right yeah whereas uh i can see the incredible value in this and it it's both a simple idea but brilliant in its execution that's right so it is a simple idea it's not simple to execute because we are now running more than 110 events around the world every year and it's the same model tweaked for each each location and it's the work that you put in that makes it look that's right connections i've met people that weren't even in my group that just having a conversation that I've become friendly with some mentors, um, mentees rather.

25:28And I also kind of run mine with a little bit of peer coaching. So giving that confidence, you know, the forum type model and asking questions. And I always tell them to go to an improv class. And I have to tell you how many people have come back to me, how many women have come back to me saying, I've done this. It was great. You're right. I'm taking my third class already, or I'll show up and go with them. Yeah. And so and I've been able to do this also in Melbourne, which is great. It's the same you you have curated such a culture around it, that it's, it's, it's simple, and it's in it's how it shows up.

26:00But yes, very complex in the back end. Yeah. But also, I think what we're really proud of is the real community. It's a community in every city. And it's also giving people access to communities when they travel between cities and countries. And the other thing that's happening that we're really excited about is that the Harvard Business School are using us as the basis for a study on mentorship. So that again came out of the fellowship I did at Harvard. And because our model is so different that they're having a look at that, which will lead, we think, to some really deeper understanding of why our model works so well and why it's so impactful.

26:39And how can women come and show up as mentees? So they just come to our website, It's mentorwalks.org.au and you just sign up to a walk. It's as simple as that. And tell us the question you want to ask. And let's make the Sydney one, our 100th walk, the biggest ever. Yeah, so Friday week. So it's not too late. If anyone wants to. It's not too late, sign up. Go to the website and sign up. They've got a week. Yep. And then if there are people out there who are interested in being mentors, I know you said it's invite only and highly curated. Yep. Yeah. So mentors are women who have had 20 years at senior level experience.

27:16They're all good women who known as good women who help good women. As I said before, they've managed teams and there's not too much about sort of managing up, down and sideways that they haven't experienced firsthand. So you need to be referred by a mentor in our network. So that's the way to do it, to look for people who are in our network and see if they'd recommend you. And you just reminded me of when you do the introduction, when all the mentors do their introduction and at the end, what is your invitation to everyone to do? To do one thing, big or small, to help another woman. Now, speaking of mentors, I want to talk about your mum, Eve.

27:57Yes. Extraordinary woman. Yes. Pioneer in Australia in business. Yes. And the law and so many fronts. Talk a little bit about that relationship and how it set your path and tone in terms of, I suppose, looking at the world around you and perceiving opportunity and also just lifting other people up. Yeah, thank you for that question. I really appreciate it. Evie is 89 and she is still extraordinary. And she was a refugee from Nazi Austria and she, you know, So her own experience, you know, has been coming out of adversity with her family and rebuilding in a new country. And so I think that sense of otherness and the obligation to, not obligation, but the want to help other people has always been part of her makeup and that I think we all share.

29:00I think we feel, you know, very grateful to have had the lives we have here. I do some work with Afghan refugees and that comes very much from knowing what it gave to our family and wanting, you know, and also the idea, and I think this comes into mental work, everyone needs help, right? Everyone needs a little bit of help sometimes and it's hard to ask for it. And I just think knowing that and it just becomes something about the way you operate. And I think if everyone understood that everyone needs a little bit of help, maybe the world would be a little bit kinder than it is. So back to mum.

29:46She was very entrepreneurial. She started Malab Recruitment, which was the first ever legal recruitment business because she was a lawyer and at that time the only law that women could do was family law. There were no part-time jobs. She had three small kids under five and she was going insane. And she actually took me to a psychiatrist to say, what is wrong with my child? And the psychologist said, there's nothing wrong with child, but you need to go back to work, go back to work. And so she started a recruitment business from home because she understood the legal profession and she could do it from home.

30:25and that was the beginning of a career that led her to be the first woman on the board of Westpac and a champion. And she was a champion in the women's movement in the 70s. She was a founding member of the women's electoral lobby. And she explained something really important to me. She was one of the spokeswomen for Well. And she said the only reason she was the spokeswoman was because no one else would do it. and that's why, you know, and she was articulate and whatever and that's how it happened. So she has been a really important force in our world in understanding disadvantage and inequality and, yeah, all of that.

31:12She really has, I think, shaped the ethos of our family, honestly. Which leads me to women for elections. Yes. Tell us a little bit about that and what's going on in that part of your world. So sitting on the board of Women for Election is such a pleasure because what we're about is a grassroots program to equip women to run for all levels of office. So we run a program called Equip and have other things too, which are all about helping women take that first step to understand what running for office looks like. And also the different roles you can play. You don't necessarily need to be the candidate yourself.

31:56You can take other things, play other roles. And so one of the things I'm most proud about is that we run particular programs for multicultural women. And in our next phase, we also have a focus, certainly not exclusively, on women at council level. And we've just run a very important awareness campaign based on research showing the online abuse that women in politics at every level get outs to men by huge percentages. And what, you know, a healthy democracy needs diverse representation. That means women. and if it's too hard to be in politics, women won't put their hand up. So it is a fantastic organisation doing really great work and, as I said, very community-based.

32:57Absolutely awesome because I think it's one of those conversations we were having on the weekend, weren't we, about getting women involved in politics and the possibilities and opportunities there. So it's so great to hear those stories. I just want to go back. You made me think of something about you mentor walks, and I was just thinking this little thing. Disability-wise, some people have a different ability to walk, and I'm assuming how do you accommodate for that? So if people let us know, we can arrange for, if, say, walking is an issue, we can arrange for that particular group to meet in a cafe or accommodate it, whatever it is.

33:36I just want to make sure that it is open for everyone. Absolutely. It's really important to think about all of the things. I'm going to shift to one of our favourite questions. Oh. The Flearnings. You're going there already. Is it too soon? Oh, no, absolutely not. Never. I'm surprised there would be a failure somewhere in there, but I'm sure there are plenty of learnings. So we have something called Flearnings, which is learning from a failure or a fuck-up. Yes. Or we can swear on here. Do you have any stories or a failure that you're quite proud of or you learned from? Okay. Well, firstly I'm astonished that you would think there were no failures because like who does not have failures?

34:15Yeah. And actually I have to say. It all depends on how deep you bury the bodies. Yeah, well, one of my favourite things about mental walks is that it's a place for women to be messy and I have this real thing that people look at successful people and they think they're so perfect and they've got everything sorted out and, you know. The Instagram looks amazing. That's exactly it. And, you know, all of us are messy and, in fact, being messy is the pathway to clarity and being messy is where a lot of people spend more time than in clarity and I think that's just being human. So I'm a great advocate and I think the fact that I have messy hair is sort of makes me very comfortable about this being messy.

34:57um so and now i've forgotten your question you're proud of your oh my face yeah i can change what you learned from yeah i've learned lots of things um one of the things in the early days of my marlab business we diversified too quickly and i think from a business point of view that's a really important learning that's impacted mentor walks um in any business including not-for-profits, there are so many things you can do but being laser-focused on what really matters is the thing that will get you further faster. So in my Marlab business we launched into local newspapers and I launched the first local newspapers for residents in the CBD of Sydney.

35:42This was Sydney News. The Sydney News, yeah. Was it the Sydney News? There was the Piermont one. The Piermont one and the Sydney News, yeah, that's how long ago it was. that was a terrible idea apart from the fact that every month the corridor of my house was filled with newspapers and you could hardly get in and out it was a terrible idea it was a terrible business and it just attracted attention from the from the main game so um and that as I said it's impacted mental walks as we have you know we get so many fantastic opportunities and we we really say are very discerning about what we take on or not because we're a really um skinny not-for-profit you know that punches beyond its weight so I think the learning from that was was don't diversify too quickly and be very discerning about what you choose to do and don't do um other learnings I've made a lot of really great hires and I don't think you can do anything this world without great people around you um but um when i've made the wrong hires um it's usually been because i needed someone and was willing to compromise and that's never a good idea it's always better not to bring on that person um unless you're 100 sure and then if you have brought on the right on people that are not right you need to make the decision to move them on quickly sort of so i think other mistakes i've made is where I haven't made a decision fast enough to change things.

37:18Well, Bobby, let's take a quick break. You can gather your thoughts. Okay. And when we come back, I want to talk about the transformation of the media as well as your other learnings. But don't go away. We're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back with Bobby Mahalak. Welcome back. You're watching Startup 360 with Simon and Julie and our fabulous guest today, Bobby. Welcome. We were talking about Fleurnings. Did you think of a couple more along the way that you might have? Yes. Don't go into media. Don't be a journalist. Well, I've said before I think being a journalist is fantastic.

37:55And it's an incredible privilege. You're absolutely right. I think some of the mistakes I've made have not been what I've done, it's been how I've done it. And so I think that sometimes there was an incident not long ago where there was a group we'd been working with who our board decided it was not a good idea to continue. And in that incident we took legal advice and operated in a very legal way. And in retrospect I would have approached it much more on a human and personal level and then backed myself up with the legal thing. I think I at the time. Rather than acting like a board does and that's a real governance mindset.

38:39Yes. I think there was this, you know, the governance mindset and operating appropriately and all those things is hugely important. I'm not at all saying don't do that. But I think sometimes you can take a step before that, which is on a much more human level, which protects feelings and relationships and things like that, that won't impact the outcome, but will definitely impact the sensation and the relationships around it. So I think that when you're given advice, sometimes it's discerning to think about the delivery of that advice. And those are times I think where I could have done things better.

39:20Yeah. That is good advice. It's good advice on lots of the people in the audience doing things that could be more human. Now, I mentioned before your long media career back when we were still doing compositing. and then it ended up on desktops and it's just extraordinary the way it has transformed in my career. And it's a challenge even now for us at private media as digital publishers and how we go forward, how we create a relationship so that I won't say we're not for profit but it's kind of nice to make a profit because I say that's the first principle of sustainability in business. You can do all the other sustainability once you're sustainably financial.

40:05what have you experienced and thought about over the years especially as the layer of social media has come in over the top as the key distribution channel for media yeah my approach to technology and change is to throw your arms around it I think that it really helps to have been there in a print generation to seeing how the internet disrupted media and now how AI is changing it as well. And I think one of the lessons from early in my career is when there is a global trend coming, and in my case it was the demise of afternoon newspapers and then newspapers, do not ignore it, right? And I think I feel a bit that way about the AI revolution that we're experiencing at the moment.

41:00And that is not naively at all to think everything about it is great, but you have to throw your arms around it. You have to play with it, do it, understand it, know what the questions are, stay in the questions. And the worst thing you can do is put your hand up and be blind to change. So I also think that it's really important to stay grounded because the power is in the questions and knowing what questions to ask. And sometimes that's even the question to ask is I don't know what question to ask, what should they be, right? Well, that's what the AI is for, isn't it? Yeah, with the prompts, right?

41:42But we can have a huge conversation about that because I think one of the core issues with AI is about the getting of judgement and one of the things you have with experience and being exposed to other good operators and things is you learn judgment. And so for me, how do we help people get judgment, which is not just asking what prompts to use but coming up with your own things and questioning the prompts and all of those things. I think that's hugely important. So if anyone had said to me you would be in media and media-related industries for 30 years, I would have said no way. But it has been, and I'm sure you find this too, so interesting and so challenging and so ever-changing that I am totally up for it.

42:29I think it's exciting. We talked about history. We talked about being in the present and embracing change and storytelling. So here comes one of my favorite questions is let's remember the future. I want you to pick a date maybe five years from now, 18 months, whatever it is. you are back on this podcast and you are speaking in the present moment in that time frame so if it's five years two years whatever what is it like you've we've embraced all this change things has happened as a storyteller where are you where's mentor walks or or malav so pick a pick a date topic okay i'll pick 10 years 10 years from now we've come back it's 20 37 i can't do the math Yeah, the one millionth mentor walk.

43:11The one millionth mentor walk, yeah. In 10 years, you know, it would be. No, no, in the present. I speak in the present language, not will be or would be. Pretend you are. Okay, so if it's 10 years time and I'm sitting here. Yes. It is mentor walks is a truly global movement. It is in every continent. The people who are part of it are connected through all kinds of channels. They are meeting, greeting, helping each other. There is much more gender parity in all levels of government and society that in all the places where decisions are made, there are more women there, in fact, tipping point numbers of women, and it's possible the world will not be in the screwy state it is in right now.

44:03You mean ten years ago? Sorry, ten years ago. Thank you for that clarification. Yeah, I think a much more shared distribution of power. I think I'm looking out there and instead of being the tech bros ruling the world, there are women and men who are ruling the world and understanding that it's not just all about money. It's about building a better world and society. And I know that sounds very kind of airy-fairy, but it would be great if the motive underpinning the world wasn't always just about profit. And I'm proud to say of the 20 years being with Mentor Walks, there are dozens, 20 years, we're still in 2037, So dozens of the mentees that I'm still in touch with are now across government roles.

45:05Yeah. They are leading startups. They are mentoring and coaching themselves. And our prime minister was one of my mentees. Terrific. I love that, Julie. Correct. Yes. And my favourite part was when she brought back knighthoods. And congratulations, Dame Bobbie. I am absolutely delighted that you could come back and join us on the show again. Thank you for playing. Thank you. And back to 2026. Well, we talked about money and you talked about profit and not-for-profits. And I want to explore that a little bit because when I look at a company like Humanitix, that's a for-profit business that gives its profit away.

45:45And so I want to talk about that mindset around money and how you strike the right balance because in philanthropy be, it then goes back to, am I just making this money so that I can give it away? And there's a certain aspect like the pledge 1 % and other areas of tech that are very keen to sort of share their success. But I'm really interested in how you balance that idea, because there is an argument I know about not for profit, changing your mindset in a way that doesn't bring the commercial rigour for success in a business that, okay, it's not trying to return money to shareholders, but you still need the commercial rigour to be able to survive and succeed.

46:31Yeah. You're pointing out something hugely important. And to me, not-for-profit has never meant you don't make money because unless you're profitable or you're not sustainable, right, you have to be. So I think there's a misunderstanding in the work. You know, not-for-profit is not a great use of words and what you need to be is a sustainable organisation. Maybe we should call it not-for-losses. Not-for-losses. I think that's pretty, that's NFL. But I think, yeah, I think that's really clarity around that is important because any organisation needs to be sustainable or you can't exist, right? So there are a few different ways to do that.

47:19In mental walks, because Adina and I both experienced in for-profit, we understand the bottom line, right? We understand that you have to be sustainable. And I think going back to the point I made before about the decisions, what you do and don't do, there, you know, behind that sits that you have to be sustainable, right? So, you know, there are different ways to do it. I mean, when the time I spent at Harvard, which was really a fellowship for experienced leaders who wanted to spend time in the social impact sector, they had a very clear line, which is the world does not need more not-for-profits, right?

48:00What the world needs is more organisations with impact for change. And there are a number of different ways you can do that. And, I mean, their motto wasn't just we don't need more not-for-profits but that if you want to make a difference, you can go and join a not-for-profit but just don't start yet another one. So I know that's slightly different, Simon, from what you raised. Absolutely important. But the mindsets really behind your question is really, really vital. And that feeds into philanthropy because it is a debate and a discussion, especially in the tech sector as people do enjoy success.

48:38Talk to us a little bit about how you think about it and that impact, how you maximise your impact. Because we can spend a lot of time running around doing things and be busy, but not necessarily having the impact. How do you measure the impact? Well, I think my definition of impact or what's meaningful for me is different from what's meaningful for you or Julie. And one of my favourite people on the planet, he had this saying that, you know, you really in your life you have four stages and it's not really until you get to your 50s where you've had a career and you've got your kids and hopefully you're a bit financially secure that you can focus on investing in community and playing a role that's where you're making a contribution but it's not paid, right?

49:30So in his definition it was getting to that point and being able to do that. So I think it's really personal but I really think the answer to that question is just do what you can when you can. And I also have a most fantastic lifelong mentor. I've been very lucky to have someone who at key points of my life has given me fantastic advice and there was one really key coffee we had where I was you know it was my business at that point was probably I don't know 15 years old and I'd lost my mojo I was really tired and I had this conversation with her you know we're not big enough we're not turning over enough we don't have enough staff we don't all the things we weren't and she just looked at me and she said you need to come up with your own definition of success you're using everyone else's and I thought that changed my world, that question and that line she used because coming up with your own definition of success and not getting caught up in everyone else's I think is so important.

50:42There are many ways we can all live our life. There is not just one. And however, I do think it's important that you, when you can, that you help other people, whatever that looks like to you because, you know, there's a science to this too, you know, in the studies of happiness. And this is one of the things I love the most about mental walks. Like Julie will attest to this. At the end of the walks, like so say in Sydney last month we had 130 women there. That's a big walk. Like mostly there might be, oh, I don't know, range from, you know, 40 to whatever, but that was an enormous walk. But regardless of the size, at the end of the walk there's always this buzz.

51:26and I think it comes from people come because they're expecting to get help with their own issue but what they find is in the conversation they've contributed to someone else's and they know in the science of happiness that it's when you contribute to others that that's where we get a lot of satisfaction. I'm feeling hurt one of the tricks that I do yeah is I have the my mentees share their story and before we go on for advice or questions I have the other two mentees pick out what values they heard from the person. And oftentimes the values are going to be biased from what they say, but it was really, it's watching their eyes like, oh, you know, I'm feeling heard and putting the people who are sharing what values that they heard they are helping.

52:10And there's definitely that science. I feel it, see it, smell it, touch it, taste it as well. Yeah. And I just go back to the Beatles every time and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

52:23well shall we uh do just a couple of things the other part that happens when you get to your 50s is you think okay i think it was helen garner who described it as the shadow of memory is longer than the sunlight of future is as that thing that i think starts to come into your thinking what does bobby want to do in the time that she's blessed with on this earth so I um I want to firstly continue building mental walks and the Marlab business and all the things I'm currently doing but um the things I'm also really interested in are issues around the future of work and um and around social cohesion like I think particularly I think Australia's at a really key point I was in America in 2024 in the election year and actually was on the hustings, door knocking, doing things like that.

53:20So I sort of saw firsthand in places like Georgia what this, you know, huge polarisation looks like. The bigger side. Yeah. So for me I think playing a role in social cohesion and how we bring diverse people together and also how we learn to understand each other is somewhere where I want to play. So I think understanding what the future of work looks like and playing a role in that which ties into education and things and how our society understands each other better for more cohesion is where I want to play. Before we go to the last one, I want to also, you're a mom and you have two boys. I do.

54:10and and how does that all play as a mom of two boys and and the work that you're doing with women what are the lessons that you're teaching them or you're seeing them learn from you so um I think your our job is to raise good men and um and someone said to me the other day you know a good man is a man that might ask offer to help before you ask for it as simple as that I'm not saying that my kids do great and do that. But I do think that we need much more discussion about and, you know, playing a role in how we ensure that men are doing the heavy lifting around this too. The emotional labour. Yeah.

54:55And I think that in the work we're doing around women's leadership and things like that, that as fantastic as all the things that I've been doing, I think the piece of involving men is really, really important and we need to be raising really great men and there are a lot of them out there and we need even more. Yeah. All right. Our final question, the big one, the most important one, is what brings you joy? Oh, gosh, so many things. um okay what brings mental walks brings me joy I think I the the just the energy and the sense of community and that people are getting a place to ask questions and be helped that gives me enormous joy and seeing seeing that grow um my kids give me a huge amount of joy because they're funny and they're fun and they're terrific humans um I think look what gives me joy is enabling others.

55:56Nothing makes me happier than seeing people in my world enabled to do great things. That really gives me joy. Fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us on Startup 360, Bobby Marlab. Pleasure. Thank you for such great questions. And Dame Bobby in 10 years from now. And we'll see some of the audience members maybe as mentees across Australia. Absolutely. Or wherever you're listening to this podcast. Yes. And quick plug again for anyone who's interested, where do they go? Mentalwalks.org.au. Good. What are you up to this weekend, Miss Julie? This weekend? Good question. I don't have plans yet. I'm going to improvise.

56:36Well, can I invite you down to Addie Road on Saturday? It is the 50th anniversary of the wonderful community organisation I'm involved in where I go and help Heather Cook and we feed a bunch of people at Wednesday Night Lights for free and I've packed boxes there. Craig Foster, the former Socceroo, has been a big support mentor there. The Governor General, Sam Mostyn, spent a lot of her time and I think she's coming on Saturday. And I think my Grateful Dead cover band is playing as well. Oh, my gosh. Shake down profits. Oh, this will be a lot of fun. I know there's going to be a great diverse community there to celebrate 50 years since what was once a former army barracks was handed over to the community by the government.

57:22So it's been a great place. There's so many great things to support people from all sorts of communities. They'll be there. And when I moved into the hood during COVID, I went down there to pack boxes and help feed people with food hampers. It was absolutely everything Bobby was talking about. You just felt like practical. I remember being there with Annabelle Crabb, who was a neighbour of mine, and she said, you know, in journalism you do a lot of things and you really wonder if you've made any difference. At the end of the day, when you look at a pile of boxes full of food for people, you know you've achieved something.

57:55So you can do both but that's where it matters. All right. Well, I hope you guys have a great weekend, whatever you're doing. This has been a private media production produced and edited by the fantastic Matt Jackson. Thanks to Deal. Thanks to Ella. Thanks to James and everyone who helps make this show so good. every week. Thanks to Tim, who does the incredible socials for us. Pearl, who also is a big hand. We'll see you next Friday. Don't forget, you can have a look. I'm going to call YouTube. I've got a new name for YouTube. Okay. Trello Vision. It's where you can watch Julie Trell on the Startup 360 podcast in glorious Trello Vision.

58:40So go there or, of course, go to Apple or Spotify if you want to just listen while you walk. if you haven't got a mentor to talk with and you want to walk on your own with your earbuds in, put Setup360 on and you'll have a great friend to keep you on the road. You have a great weekend. We'll see you next Friday. Bye for now.