Regrets, Jason Dunn's had a few, but now he's a triathlete and loves adversity

0:00Founders, I know what's on your mind at stupid o 'clock. After failed attempts at counting funding rounds and doom scrolling, you've finally settled on something that will surely put you to sleep. Payroll and compliance. Don't let the boring stuff slow down your startup growth. Global HR and payroll platform DEAL, that's D-E-E-L, can handle all the complicated stuff around international payroll, compliance, visas and onboarding, so you can stay focused on building. Visit deal.com slash 360 to learn more today. I've met tons of really wealthy people. I've met some amazing people. One of the things that I learned a long time ago is, you know, often people with a lot of money don't actually have a lot of purpose.

0:54Hello and welcome Butchie Gamma Wara from the Gadigal lands here in Sydney. It's time for Startup 360 Best in Tech Awards edition. They're magical. I'm Simon Thompson, editor of Startup Daily.net and host of the Startup Daily Best in Tech Awards. last night in Sydney, 15 amazing finalists. And I'm joined by fellow judge. Julie Terrell, Chief Play Officer at Playful Purpose, and I get to play with Simon Thompson. I hope you had a great night last night. Of course, we're recording this before the event, but we are remembering the future at this point in time, aren't we? A start-up 360 technique that we use.

1:42Julie you look spectacular last night uh I was absolutely blown away you gave the best speech you had a great time I didn't know you could drink that much champagne but I'm delighted you did and of course our incredible winners uh before we go into them uh spoiler alert because you don't even know I don't who these are and that was non-alcoholic champagne by the way there was Yes, we have put that in there. There was a little bit of a joke about the GSD Award, which Adam, who helped me write the script, said it stands for Get Simon Drunk. Now, I am a very good boy all the way through for a couple of hours, but I do kind of like to decompress afterwards and have a few glasses.

2:28But what amazed me was there was nearly 220 people in the room. It was delightful to have Bronte Campbell, friend of the show from Athletica, come along. along with so many other wonderful people on the night. And, of course, our incredible 60 finalists and 15 minutes. And the keynote speaker. And the keynote speaker, who you bumped into. I bumped into, gave some notes, so we'll see if she's taken them. And I have to say, Happy Jewish New Year because it's tonight, isn't it? Tonight's first night of Rosh Hashanah. Chag Sameach, L'shanah Tovah. Well, I hope it's a great one. Are you going to go somewhere and gather with a bunch of friends?

3:08I will meet up with for a gathering for the new year, eat some apples and honey to bring in the new year. And it's interesting for me now because the new year is now getting into spring and summer. When I grew up, it was winter and fall. It was fall. Yeah. Well, that's fantastic. Now, before we go any further, I do want to say that Startup360 is supported by Deal. Hire, manage and pay anyone, anywhere. Thank you to them. All right, so I put you in charge of the GSD award. The Get Simon Drunk, but not the Get Simon Drunk. No, no, the Get Shit Done. The Get Shit Done. There's a very funny story from a few years ago when Kate Cornick had to go to the Victorian Treasurer's Office and say, hey, we won the GSD award.

3:53And Tim Pallas, who was the treasurer at the time, says, what does GSD stand for? And she had to explain to the minister. But get stuff done. You can say get stuff done. Get stuff done. But it is a fantastic award. We had a great bunch of finalists. Interestingly, all women. Really? Yeah, isn't it funny how women are kind of in that sort of GSD mindset? Correct. And if I was to predict who might have won that award, who do you think it might have been? Someone who runs 1 ,000 Women in AI. She's been on this show. And I am such a fangirl. She's got two startups, a baby, a real new baby. And this thousand women in AI, Emma Earley.

4:38I know. Congratulations to you, Emma. Congratulations to all our incredible winners. I'm going to say Startup of the Year was won by Sighthive. Scale-up of the Year went to Heidi Health, great company. Aquila Space Technologies won most innovative startup. Artemis Structural Intelligence, a Queensland business, won best regional. Paz. Paz. Yay. One industry champion. I loved the sustainability winner, Diaper Recycle. Really interesting one about that. You can, of course, read about all of this on StartupDaily.net. Best New Founder went to Dr. Ariella Heffernan-Marx, of course, from Oven AI. Congrats to Stephanie Larson from one of our new awards, Startup Employer of the Year.

5:30Best Accelerator went to UNSW Founders. Annie Liao from Build Club was our future leader of the year, so congrats to her. Hermant Chauricia was our best technical leader. And Gigi Elements was the best new idea. So 15 amazing winners. Congrats to all of them. Take a bow. And congrats, of course, to our incredible finalists. Thanks to OpenAI too. All our winners scored an OpenAI ChatGPT subscription. Fantastic. So that was nice. Wow. Thanks to Chloe Brown from OpenAI for coming to the party with that. Fantastic. Nice to give them a little bit of a thing along with a trophy. You get a nice big trof.

6:16Great. But it was fun. So really enjoyed that. Now, who is our guest on the show today? So, Simon, today we have Jason Dunn, an athlete, Ironman. Ironman. 14 times over. I wonder if he eats Nutri-Grain for breakfast. Could be. Yeah. Ironman food. That was the marketing for many years. Oh, okay. Yes, they would have lots of guys running around, you know, in their spudgy smugglers eating Nutri-Grain. Australian. So we have Jason Dunn. He has written a book, Greatness Doesn't Care. Yeah. And we're going to talk to him about purpose and resilience and vulnerability and how that all applies to being a founder or an investor or an angel or an employee of a startup and how all of the mindset stuff he talks about is relevant.

7:09It's a really interesting story, Haz. There's been a few setbacks in his career along the way. He changed it all in his mid-30s. He's in his 60s now. But he decided to have a massive – well, he wrote about adversity for startups. Daily last month talking about how it can be an entrepreneur's greatest competitive advantage. I'd recommend you have a look at that on startupdaily.net. But in our post awards bliss, shall we take a quick break and we'll be right back to meet with Jay.

7:53onboarding, HR, IT, EOR, benefits, and compliance, so your team can grow without borders. It's why more than 37 ,000 fast-growing companies trust Deel to move fast. Visit deal.com slash 360. That's D-E-E-L dot com slash 360. zero. And welcome back. I am so excited to introduce today's guest. Today we have Jason Dunn, who is an elite endurance athlete that's 14 plus Ironman ultra ultra marathons and second overall at Athletics Australia 100k National Road Running Championships and retired finance wealth management coach, CEO turned high performance mindset coach, keynote speaker and author, and his new book, Greatness Doesn't Care, explores purpose, courage, resilience, and becoming the greatest version of yourself, which we will talk about today.

8:58How does he do that? It's like, it'd take me a week to get through the 100Ks. And you're doing all of that as well? In about eight hours. Oh, wow. That's pretty awesome. Yeah, I only run when I'm chased right now. So maybe after this, I'll go and take a running. Tell us your story. What got you into all of this running and almost not a polar opposite, but very different as wealth management CEO?

9:29Regret. Regret got me into running. so I grew up in the UK and I very you know an environment of a very pragmatic you know very serious environment and I but my dream my dream was to be a professional footballer in the UK pretty much the same as everyone's dream everyone's dream in the UK so I lived and breathed that and And, you know, as a teenager, I would play four competitive games a week. Wow. And I just lived and breathed that. I mean, I worked hard at school, but I lived and breathed that. And at the age of 15, my chance finally came. And it wasn't the first division. It was the second division in the UK.

10:18And I was offered an apprenticeship with a team that was two hours away by train on the south coast. and you know i had this incredible excitement and elation i was kind of finally here this was my chance but it was a huge risk you know they would take on 40 apprentices and at the end of two years after cleaning dirty muddy football boots for two years you know they could they'd probably take on two out of 40 so i made this decision with my head as i'd been raised and not my heart because I probably would have had to abandon my school studies and I declined it. And so for the next 20 years, I mean, I did a bunch of serious things.

11:02You know, I worked pretty hard. I lived with this snowballing regret because I'd given away my dream. And so I questioned my purpose in life. You know, I asked myself, as many humans do, you know, is this all I'm meant to be? and that question came up over and over and over and over again and I didn't answer it. And so I would, I mean, I started drinking. I started, you know, in school, lunch breaks, we'd go to the pub, me and my mates, have a couple of beers, play a bit of Space Invaders and go back to school. I started smoking and doing probably other things that weren't particularly healthy either for my career.

11:44Sound like George Best already. Yeah. well probably with a fraction Simon of the talent of George Best so um but yeah you know so I I lived with that regret and life just started and I didn't really have purpose I worked hard one day rolled into another until you know I couldn't pass the mirror test anymore I would look myself in the mirror and I would once I I had too many beers at a function which I often had to go to I would say I could have been a professional soccer player as though it were a badge of honour but in truth it wasn't a badge of honour it was actually the opposite of that it was I had the talent but I didn't have the heart and I didn't find the courage and I you know I didn't make the decision and I didn't take the risk so it was actually the the opposite so I got to the point that I just questioned everything about myself and then one day a friend of mine I'll call him a friend um the organization i worked for um the bank said hey you know we're going to do a corporate triathlon which was all the rage 27 years ago 28 years ago i went yeah okay i'll be in that thinking and then i thought what's a triathlon um anyway i went out i went away and found out obviously and it was a 300 meter swim a 12k bike ride and a 3k run and i thought yeah i still smoke i can run 3ks it'll be easy i can get ready for that so off i went did a bit of training cut back a bit on smoking and i caught up with my mate for a cup of coffee and he said jace how are you going with the training said yes great i reckon i'm going to nail the run he said well what about the other things i said what do you mean the other things he said the swimming bit and the biking bit are you joking you want me to swim i can't swim i cannot put my head underwater i have a deep fear of drowning in fact that's the constant nightmare that i have drowning that was my very that was my greatest fear and because i'd spent sort of 20 years as most humans do avoiding or skirting around my fears it was just it was this was the time this was you know this was the turning point this was i i knew in that moment that if i walked away from that that i would probably walk away from every fear in my life so after picking myself up the floor i went you know what i'm going to do this i'm going to find a way so a couple of days later i went to the swimming pool and i had a conversation with myself as we do as humans and it was that voice saying you don't want to do this it's all too hard you know you're going to have to keep making you know tough decisions you're going to have to keep fighting courage and you can come back in a few days it'll be different in a few days as we do in life and i had this conversation with 20 minutes with my hands on the steering wheel the engine running and i eventually went you know what this is it mate you gotta face face this stuff otherwise your life is just gonna keep becoming snowballing regret so i went in and put my head underwater i managed to like doggy paddle 50 25 meters not 50 meters and i hung on to the railing at the other end i was out of breath you know i was sucking the air and the chlorine i swallowed a lot of that thought about it and then i went off and did another 25 meters and that was kind of it and and that was a small decision that completely changed the trajectory of my life and so 10 more of those to go 10 more of those to go and this is the essence of life is that you know you've got to have a and i developed a you know tactical plan it didn't have a strategic plan for my life which we should do i had a tactical plan um which i have used for 27 years which is you know boils back to it's a 90-day high performance plan what is it you need to get up and do every day an element any element of your life to achieve something that for you and it's for you it doesn't matter about anyone else it's not comparison something that is truly remarkable and so i was trying to i suddenly found this purpose and this purpose was you need to go and prove to yourself what you are actually capable of, not what you're not, how far you can go, how far you can push your mental and physical limits.

15:54And so that became my purpose. And then a week later, coincidentally, I was sitting on the couch having a ciggy and a cup of coffee, as you did inside in those days. Recovery. Recovery. Yeah, that was my recovery. And so I watched the Hawaii Ironman wide world of sports. All right. And back in those days it was a curious, legendary, Herculean event, whereas now it's kind of mainstream but still it's kind of Herculean. And so I watched it and I finished watching it. I went, that's it. That's my goal is I'm going to, and then I sat back from there and thought, how the hell am I going to multiply these distances 15 times in some brutal environments and not just do it but actually qualify fast enough in my age group.

16:43And then, you know, I was 35 then to qualify for the world championships. And that is how my trajectory changed. And what I love, and, you know, I'm almost 63 now, is I keep finding things that the old version of me three or four years before would never have believed, would never have thought would be possible. Like things that I would, if someone asked me, I'd go, yeah, it's impossible. I've been at the Hawaiian Ironman as well. As an athletic supporter. Ah, wonderful. It's an amazing island. It's an amazing race. While I want to get into purpose, I want to just go back on this word regret. And I know that that's a great word for you to tell the story.

17:23It's dramatic. But I'm curious as a mindset coach how to reframe that word regret and what it does, you know, how it's reframed for you. Yeah. So it's a great question. I wouldn't, you know, I obviously wouldn't frame it as regret. And so I developed, way back then I developed a technique that worked for me and I've sort of piled in a whole bunch of things that I've learned, the wisdom I've gained. And I call it the armchair test. And so being in financial services and financial planning, you know, my teams, myself originally when I started in my teams, you sit with people that, you know, their entire life is in front of them and they don't think about much of it until they actually get there.

18:04And then they have this massive regret about what they didn't do. So I came up with the armchair test, which we would use with people, which is imagine for a moment you're 65, you're retired, you're sitting in your armchair, you know, and you have all the time in the world to consider your life, either backwards or forwards in the rear vision mirror or looking at the windscreen. And write down an inventory, imagine how you would feel about your life as it is now. So if nothing really changed, it kind of rolled on, pretty much the status quo, how would you feel? And immerse yourself in that moment.

18:43I think that's appropriate with any element of life is, if nothing changes, how are you going to feel about your life, about the meaning, the opportunities you let go, the times you didn't take a risk, the times you didn't believe in yourself, the times you didn't believe in other people, the times you said or you didn't say, I love you, I care, I really appreciate you, all of those things. where you're at now this is a stock take life stock take and so i did that and and that's what i actually do whenever anyone wants help or you know ask me about the future about purpose is say imagine your life from now when you've got all the time in the world and you can change life at 65 you can change life at any given day and improve and become better than yesterday pretty much any element of your life even fitness although if you leave it till 65 you know you're kind of playing catch-up and you can't play catch-up i'm going to turn the tables a little bit i we do that question here it's but we call it i call it the remember the future so i want i would love to walk you through that jason and pick a time frame six months 18 months two years and pretend you're back here on this podcast and talk about it in the present from the time frame.

20:01So what time frame are you going to pick? 12 months. 12 months, okay. So what I would say is I didn't waste a day over the last 12 months. I did everything I could every single day to align to my purpose, take action, and make a difference to the world. So that is my purpose now, which is how do I draw on my experience, my lived experience, the reality of what I've been blessed to have accomplished and the person I've become because every day, every week, I believe I've become a better person. So that will be the test is that I will go back and say it. And within that, we saw you a year ago, Jay, we're still in the game.

20:38We saw you a year ago. How have you impacted? Do you have any stories of any people you have impacted between who we saw you last? Again, I'm blessed because so after my first book, which came out three years ago, there isn't a day, sorry, there isn't a week where somebody in the world doesn't come back and say, I read your book. I took action. I changed my life. Thank you. And I have developed incredible friendships all around the world from people that I just love to help. How did it feel when you found out that Matt Damon was going to play you in the Netflix series of Greatness Doesn't Care?

21:14It wasn't my first pick. So, yeah, in answer to you, you want to put your hand up for the roll? So, look, my answer would be that I helped change 100 ,000 lives. I'm going to pick up on something Ted Lasso says in the current series. Yep. Given that he's involved in soccer. He talked about how there's a reason the rear vision mirror is much smaller than the windscreen in front of you, which I thought was a fantastic line. And to pick up on the regret thing, I think of Gordon Ramsay, the British chef that many people will know, of course who almost had a professional soccer career too. So you talk about regret as that unanswered question but I always think of the part that you end up going, yes, you end up going down another path and that question remains unanswered but the possibilities in front of you from that new path are always extraordinary.

22:16So do you regret the path that you went down and how it unfolded and your career in banking and finance and where you are now. I don't regret anything. Yeah. Nothing. I regretted many things. I have no regrets now because every day I get up and I aspire to and I give it 100 % to be the best person I can be, whatever that means. And that is the only way forward. You only ever get today. Every day is a gift. But wasn't that age 35 pivot that changed that mindset? Absolutely. You know, I think I was a pretty optimistic, pretty positive person. I just didn't apply the other elements. And that's what I set out to do.

22:57Sorry, a little shameless plug here. Absolutely. Give it away. Because we want to get into it. There are incredible books and they each deal with kind of element of life or an element of behaviour or they deal with purpose or but nothing, you know, different things, you know, there is a kind of order of the steps to finding the greatest version of you. And that is never ending. That's the thing that I love is in early 63, every day reveals an opportunity to become better at some part of my life, be a better human, care more, love more. And the greatest thing for me most recently in the last few years is vulnerability.

23:33Vulnerability has given me exponential growth, how I feel about myself, how I treat the world, how quickly I say, I'm sorry, I can do better than that, I will do better than that, and love more and care more and not hold back, not actually just give it what I think, give it how I feel and give it what I say. But there are 14 steps and you've got to have purpose. You know, purpose is the antidote to everything. Fear, disaster, setbacks. Purpose is your anchor in business and in life. So you can't change it, but they each build. There is a sequence. And so what I set out to do is go, here's 14 steps.

24:12So, you know, you're somewhere on one of those key 14 steps. You can start to change your trajectory, enhance your life, transform by focusing on one of those steps. And you can start really small, you know. And micro habits, that's just momentum. It's just change until it builds a habit. So that's what I set out to do is because you pick out one element and focus on it and you don't know what the sequence is or where you're going next. or you can't just work on one thing at one time. You've got to work and chip away at a whole bunch of things. So it starts with purpose. You must have a plan. You know, you've got to have a plan.

24:54You've got to have a strategic plan. You've got to have a tactical plan. You've got to have that in business. Very few people have that in life. But let me tell you, you know, life outside of your business, you know, outside of your work, you know, you've got to have a plan. It still consumes about half of your life anyway. Yeah. Or more actually when you think about it. If you're a founder working a 60, 70, 80-hour week, it consumes a lot of what is actually your life. Absolutely. And then if you don't have a plan that encompasses, you know, you focus so entirely on one thing, all these other wonderful elements of who you are, how you develop yourself, how you become better, the people around you, you know, your health, your fitness.

25:37and, you know, who wants to end up having a load of money and being unhealthy? What's the point in that? Oh, at least you own Twitter. Yeah. Well, you know, you've met lots of, you know, very wealthy people. In finance and in wealth management, I've met tons of really wealthy people. I've met some amazing people. One of the things that I learned a long time ago is, you know, often people with a lot of money don't actually have a lot of purpose. Say more. So they've done it. You know, the struggle is the fabric of life. Struggle, if you've got no struggle, you've got no life. Like what's the point?

26:19If everything's easy, what is the point? What purpose do you have? What difference do you make? And so, you know, if you're in business and you make a whole bunch of money and maybe you've neglected a whole bunch of things, without struggle there is no meaning. And, you know, you get comfortable. If you get too comfortable in life, your growth has stopped so you you shared your struggle and adversity do you have any examples of other people you've worked with without giving out names just to take us through a story yeah well and if i can just context that because we haven't met like my you know my struggle is you know i've almost lost everything i've you know in my 50s i've been you know embarrassed i've been humiliated i've been broken countless times you know 35 hospitalization i've broken 45 bones i've come close to death four times and in one of those sorry one of the other steps is this from your triathlon habit it's from a bunch of things like it's a whole rain you know 17 i woke up in an ambulance i was going to pick my nan up driving on the pacific highway and and the world went black i've had so many times in my life where the world just goes black and so you know i woke up in the ambulance momentarily i put my hand up to my face because it was just shit going on there and i could feel my teeth coming through the arc or bone coming or i could feel splinters in my mouth i'd lost a third of my teeth i had a whole bunch of others that were smashed to pieces and then i went back out again and um and then i woke up and i was probably 18 hours later after a eight operation to try and salvage my face and pull the teeth out and wire my jaw up and uh i know i'm digressing here but yeah so you're a storyteller we need to yeah pretty much and so there i was i woke up you know and again dazed and i woke up what the hell's happened to me and i could not get anywhere near my face because it was swollen my head was swollen twice as big then there was an inch of bandages and very few holes and i and i had no teeth and as i woke up i just went what what has happened to you like what is that i'm 17 you know is my life over what's happened to me and i spent a few hours a little while just feeling really shit and sorry for myself and and then i would i was watching the procession go past this ward of people you know on hospital gurneys and you know probably going off to operating rooms and then you know this young boy came by and he had no hair and i couldn't see it so distinctly you know 45 46 45 years ago i remember thinking wow that little boy and probably some of those people may never leave this hospital you know this is this is really really serious and critical and in that moment and I found gratitude and it completely flipped.

29:09And that's why I've been grateful every day, ever since every time I nearly die and I don't and I'm in a terrible state, I find gratitude because I'm here, I've survived. Now I need to not just survive, I need to thrive. And so that foundation of gratitude, gratitude is happiness. Gratitude and perspective in life, and I talk a lot about that is perspective. Look around you, look around our country, Look around at the homeless people, and I've worked a lot with homeless programs, CEOs sleep out and so on. And look anywhere. You know, whatever, pretty much whatever your situation is in a day, there are billions of people on the planet that would, in an instant, swap their life for yours.

29:51So I used to shake myself and feel shame, and I always feel shame when, you know, something trivial, you know, is bothering you or bugging you. You know, like you get in a lift, someone goes, you know, they've started the day, oh, how's, you know, how are you doing? They go, oh, the bus was three minutes late. I hate that. Like what a way to think. What you say, what you think, the words you use, you know, that's who you become. So I found gratitude in that moment and every moment ever since. And that gives you a resilient, unshakable foundation. And I called my first book Unlimited, which was the process of how I went for myself, created an unlimited mindset.

30:36It doesn't mean you think you're unbreakable because obviously I got broken lots of times, but it is an unlimited mindset. It's belief. And belief is stacked on a bunch of those other steps. Purpose, courage, mindset, planning, discipline. Those are five of the key, you know, 14 steps. And they build belief. They build resilience. And so when setback and failure, no matter what it is, your perception of setback and failure will be determined by how you see the world, how you see yourself, your belief, your planning. And resilience is your propensity or capacity to quickly see a door and not a wall.

31:20How quickly do you see the door and not the wall? and then a measure of your capacity or resilience capability or resilience bank, how quickly you walk through that door with belief. Or start running at the wall. Or start running up the wall. I want to ask for a second though. So you had this incredibly traumatic experience at 17 and then another 18 years passed until you really decided on a major reset. Looking at that gap of nearly two decades, what do you think held you back at that point um were you a slow learner or was there something else going on and you just got caught up in work and finance and it seemed work finance raising a family working hard i mean i i arrived in australia when i was 17 yeah and i had four four big events in the next 12 months you know the things that not normal for a 17 year old so i moved to the other side of the world i came to australia i painted the original paintings for the intercontinental hotel in macquarie street which was the biggest hotel you know at 17 the biggest you know grandest hotel in australia um i came within an inch of dying in a car accident i smashed my face up i started the third video shop video cassette shop ever in australia and i bought two properties in sydney and i i bought those from my savings i borrowed a hundred percent for one and 90 for the other through my lawyer and a couple of but that was a big year and i worked every single day including uh by one christmas day for two years seven days a week running my video shop so i was pretty driven but i also i worked really hard but i would often when it came to courage and things i feared you know i i take i choose the easier right You know, alcohol, maybe a few other things.

33:13Well, you hadn't gone down to Bondi Beach and jumped in the surf. So, yeah. So, you know, I didn't find the courage to, you know, to take the tougher road until I got to that point, which is where I always take the tougher road. If something scares me, frightens me, you know, makes your palms sweaty, go do it. Go, you know, go do it. How do you get to that mindset? Because... founders I think generally in many ways embrace fear but not all fears um to succeed in business you need to be able to yeah to do that yeah we can do that and then sort of lead a completely different private life absolutely where that doesn't happen absolutely you can look brave from the outside and running your company yeah and personally not clear of that mindset yeah Yeah, absolutely.

34:07And look, there are a couple of elements to how you be brave and courage. Vulnerability is being brave and courageous. Vulnerability, everything you do is about looking inward. You know, we want someone else to change our life. We want something else to happen to me, you know, whatever. But the only change that you can enact and the only way you can influence the world and be successful in any element of your life is when you're vulnerable, you grow, you self-reflect. You go, I can do better. I can do this. And in business, you're really driven. You've got to be tough. You've got to be resilient.

34:43And sometimes when you're tough, you don't allow yourself to be vulnerable. So explain the Jason Dunn version of vulnerability because I think everyone has their own parameters. We were talking about it last week, Lee and Gardner, and telling your employees that, look, the business is fucked and I'm not sure how much longer we're going. That's a form of vulnerability but not a particularly clever one. So what's the Jason Dunn vulnerability index? Well, the mix is, you know, you've got to find like, and this is life, you know, isn't it? Life is so few people are ever still. So stillness is another key step.

35:20You know, it's the, I don't know, I've got it at eight or nine, but, you know, stillness and presence. So without presence, what's the point in living? You know, I walked here this morning and what an incredibly beautiful day. I walk along, I look at the water, I look at the sky, I look at the constructions of buildings, I look at people. Without presence, you've got no life. Nothing else means anything really because if you can't enjoy it, you can't be in the moment at least once a day. I question the value. So stillness is where it's not sitting on a couch watching television. I do that. We all do that.

35:54I'm not saying that's not good for you, but that's not stillness. Stillness, and especially if you're an entrepreneur, you know startup or you're leading a big business stillness is very challenging to find i found stillness through exercise and running because i had 25 hours a week where i didn't speak to anyone i didn't take phone calls i didn't look at my phone i was present in my own body in my own mind and i would just train or i'd be running so the vulnerability part in the mix is you got to be still and you know when you're tough and you kind of you don't want to let you know no chinks in your armor you don't find you often you don't find stillness often you don't see what you're doing often you don't see the mistakes because you know you're so you're so bound to your strategy and so bound to the community you're so busy working you just do not get time to reflect and the vulnerability part and in be like i was you know i nearly lost everything as a ceo in a business that you know needed just broken needed massive massive change and you know i used to think that fun you know i wasn't vulnerable i would you know i would i wouldn't show vulnerability but i learned that you know you need to do that to connect with the other human beings you also need to do that to realize when you're on the wrong course when you're right making the wrong moves and you can be very isolated you know if you're a ceo of a company with 300 people you can be very isolated you know if you're a startup and there's two of you or one of you or five of you you know you can be very isolated so vulnerability is actually reaching out and going i don't know the answer to this like simon i need your help and surrounding yourself with people that have great vision and great experience in all different aspects of life to go i need your help tell me and one of the things I love is I do that for lots of people I don't I do it for free I don't want everyone to bring me up and say by the way I need this for free but when I especially when I see people that kind of can't afford it but they have that you know that desire and they really want to make a difference I just help them you know what that is the most I get the most out of doing that when I see someone that's a human being that wants to give a go they're vulnerable go jace how do i do this okay right okay let's get it all out on the table that brings me the most incredible meaning and i have no regret anymore because every day i try and change it and i'm going to leave this earth whenever i leave it and i'm going to be there reflecting my life going you know what i did the best to be the best that i could be i did the best to help as many people as i could and make a difference in this world that's my that's my legacy so but yeah it's a right it's a it's a combination you know you can't be vulnerable and you know crying every day about what's happening but there are going to be some times when you're going to cry that resonates with me because i recently just wrote a blog post or linkedin about asking for help asking for help is a very vulnerable thing and like you i prefer to help people and and so it was hard for me to ask but then i flipped it because remembering that people like to help.

39:12And if you don't ask, you're depriving them of the joy of helping. And the people that showed up in the conversations that I've been having are really vulnerable. I've taken off that mask and it's, it's really, I've been masking for years and it's just been so helpful. People want to help. And a lot of people like, I get it. I'm going through the similar thing. So that vulnerability is so important. And now I want to get back to that risk part of you. You took a lot of risk, which is great. I find Australia has a different relationship to risk in other, than other countries but you took those risks and did some not work out well and i'm going to use the big f word and fail and what did you learn from that so we call those flernings and then i have a follow-up question with that so where have you had in those big risks i took it from mick lebenskis you're welcome to have it yeah and we pass it on for free we pass it on for free so what is your giving yeah what's your learning from all those risks before we go any further i just want to say psychologically when you give without expecting something in reward in return the reward is great and and there have been psychological studies that show yeah the impact it has on you as the giver yeah is so important in research yeah i have research on my like yeah but you know we're not expecting a present back yeah yeah it's it's that thing of giving it and it doesn't have to be it can be presence yeah it can be listening it can be a whole bunch of things that just make being authentic and that bit about you know the bit about vulnerability is connection human connection people love to help and i used to think again what people want to see from a leader or business is that confidence you know i've got this we got this we're going really well but then one day they go the businesses you know and they go where'd that come from you didn't so that human connection that's something i've i've had to learn the same as tempering and getting rid of my ego which is the way I was raised that's been a biggie that has been a biggie and the person I am now compared with five years ago and 10 years ago so take us through that flirting well the the flirting is every one of my what I feel are my greatest accomplishments and my accomplishments on comparison you know when you compare it just robs you you know it's a thief of joy comparison and if you're a startup comparing yourself with a really healthy you know highly profitable business that spent decades you know a decade getting it right what's the point in that you know that's just self self-defeating so um the learning is that again my greatest defeats of you know all my greatest accomplishments have been born from my greatest defeats and my greatest failures and the learning i've taken from that but again that's of vulnerability is how quickly you sit down with stillness and go why did that happen you know what what have i learned from that how will i change it do i go and ask somebody else and your experience the belief and the resilience is once you put a process in place those you know the belief grows You know, the what do I do next grows.

42:24But you, you know, Roger Federer at his peak was the greatest tennis player in history. Roger Federer, he failed one in every two points that he played. He lost. That was his famous speech. Was it to Harvard or the university he went and spoke to? And there are millions of examples like that. So, and he played millions and millions and millions of points. So he failed millions of times, millions of times. And his mindset was he knew that he had a system, he had a plan, he had courage, he had belief. He just knew that if he just focused on every point and playing it the best that he could, then, you know, he would prevail.

43:12And so that is the experience, that's experience. And you've got to have those other things. So you mentioned you've learned so much from your failures. Which one are you most proud of? Story of a proud failure. Proud failure. I think the one, I mean, in sport or in life or, yeah. Whatever your definition. So my biggest goal was qualifying for the Y Ironman. and you know i i spent six years relentlessly going after that and um you know six out of the last 20 odd and you know i was on plane pretty much every week you know my family you know as well looking after them and a big job and so you give up a lot of stuff you get and i gave up less on that side you know i gave up friendships i just developed friendships which are lifelong at work but um my biggest failure was when you know my ego was ego is you know it's the killer of greatness so you know and you because you need to be bold and you need to believe but i went out to race ironman new zealand which i think was my fifth or sixth ironman or seventh and i was really big and bold i had a plan my ego was a little bit too big i went out too aggressively i didn't stick to my plan i didn't adapt and 150 kilometers into the bike ride going up a false flat which is a slightly you know hill that goes up slightly into a very strong wind you know my mind had been telling me for 40 k's it's just go home it's easy you know you're done you can come back blah blah blah and i quit i was you know probably the first dnf and quit that i'd ever had and i knew and as soon as I got picked up by the truck and I was going back to town I knew I knew that I'd got it wrong I'd given up and I was my mind was already starting to play what's the narrative I'm going to tell people that I know my family and all the rest of it about why I failed and I got back and I gave them that oh you know it was conditions it was you know I just didn't feel right today you know blah blah blah blah i knew that i'd failed i knew that i'd got it wrong and there was that moment that i realized in my life that doesn't matter how you convince every that story you tell the narrative or whatever all that matters is you know what you know and so from that the next day i i went and i watched every you know i i'm sorry i went and ran 50 kilometers the next morning you know and in from in the dark and then as the sun came up over lake taupe and i thought about it for hours and hours and i knew that i would avenge i would know like redemption from that moment would be coming and that would that would fuel me that determination and my purpose and grace one in between came really close and the next year i turned up at iman new zealand to go face my demons you know really test what i was made of and i i think i made some of the same mistakes again because i was so determined for redemption and the same thing happened on the bike leg and it happens was happening for about 40 kilometers i got to this very same point in the on the cycle and i was i was having that conference that conversation the easier to quit you hurt you and blah, blah, blah, all the reasons you used to stop.

46:42And then I developed this technique where I project myself forward and imagine how I feel about myself. So it's an armchair test, but it's an armchair test seven or eight hours later. And so I imagined how I would feel. I went back to the last year and how dejected and beaten I felt when I let myself down and I quit. And I project that forward and went, Jason, imagine how you're going to feel tonight when you're trying to spin the same you know when you're going to be giving all the reasons why you didn't but you knew because you didn't find the courage because you didn't you know you didn't reinvent just the next little step and you know the next bit forward and so i went that that's the one that i i want i need because if i don't do that this was a habit i might as well stop now so i recalibrated i said you know what i'm just going to get in because all the matters is that i finish this thing and i sit there tonight and i feel proud of myself and i can be honest with myself and so i went you know what i'm you know i'll get back in and i'll just even if i have to walk some of the marathon you know i'll do that so i got back into transition and i changed and i just started running and i felt really good i couldn't believe how good i felt and i'm two kilometers in a way you know what today i'm going to run the fastest marathon i've ever run in an iron man and and i did and and i qualified and in my first book i recount and i actually i might not talk about it because it'll probably bring a few tears to my eyes but i recount how it felt at the roll down process because i actually had to roll down because i was one spot out i didn't know where i was and i remember every single second of that you know those couple of hours and and every single person's name that was before me that qualified and the one person that wasn't in the room who decided not to take that spot and it rolled down to me and so it's about being you know finding courage and being honest with yourself and learning that your greatest victories your greatest accomplishments will come and that mindset the armchair slash remember the future Yeah, he was already doing Remember the Future.

48:53You just did it. That's Remember the Future. Absolutely. It works. So you can do it in short time. Of course. And you can do it in long time. Of course. And, in fact, short time and long time, you know, one's tactical and one's strategic. So I just want to clarify because it goes back to athlete mindset and we've had some extraordinary people on that couch talking about this. What you were saying on that first time when 40 minutes in, you quit. Yeah. Yes, there was some physical hardship. but in the end it was a mind decision. Absolutely. Because, you know, we've all seen the athletes who basically pass out, throw up, collapse, two minutes short of the finish line, give everything until there's nothing left.

49:35That was dealing with your mind in that moment. Yep. What did you learn from that experience? Because, yes, we can end pain and adversity, rationalize a decision. Yeah. But the push through is a massive, massive challenge. It is the running through the wall. It's not finding the door. That's running through the wall. Yeah, it is. And in races, and what I learned is whatever you do is whatever you tell yourself and however you think. That's most of life is here. Success or otherwise is what you tell yourself and how you deal with it and how you create create in the moment you can create in the moment perspective you know again i share a few techniques that i used and you know how but but just your happiness and how you live is is all about perspective you know i i don't stress i don't worry unless it's worth worrying about so i again develop that technique to go is this thing going to you know i have a like a kind of stress scale or perspective scale that I learned around about that same time.

50:49And that is in the moment because stress will kill you regardless. I mean, it doesn't mean a heart attack, but stress will kill you. Inflammation on your brain, inflammation on your body. You don't think it will. Wait till you're 65 and see how you feel. So it's how you influence yourself in that moment. So you don't stay mired for too long. You're actually already looking for solutions. You're moving forward. Of course, you've got to process it properly, but it's what you tell yourself. and you know if you can't someone if you came to me and said as people do they come to me and they say i'm really worried about this so i said you know tell me about that well actually the first thing i say are you going to die they look at me and they go no okay well that's number one you know that's you know that's that's level eight that's that's gone or is somebody in your family going to die or are they really really sick and seriously because if they're not don't don't worry like it is and then you kind of you know are you in the middle of the ocean and there's sharks circling you and you're 100 miles from shore and is it that scenario and you know and then you go and then you go down the scale to you know are you are you at a barbecue and there's a mosquito trying to bite your ankle because because that's what it's sounding like to me is that really what it is so you move on quicker you find perspective and and you think more clearly you think strategically you think tactically and you're just more positive and so my dad one of the things my dad told me whenever when i was young you know he would say to me yeah i'd be worried he said you know even to my teens and early 20s you know jace what are you worried about and you know i tell him and he go you know do you remember what you worried about this time last year or this week last year i go no i go well maybe maybe this isn't worth worrying about you know how do we solve this and so you can do the same armchair testing and go is this thing that's really stressing what is this going to consume my thoughts at 65 am i going to look back on this moment and go wow that was defining or you know that was you know that was the worst thing in the world that's ever happened to me because the chances are you won't life is that i have a worry journal something that i'm working with a worry journal and when you write it down in the moment is it hypothetical or is it here and now absolutely and you know getting used to that and figuring out how to exactly do it with myself as a journal journaling is awesome i want to apply that to being a founder because, of course, building the business is, by its very nature, stressful.

53:14So how do you sift through sort of between the shark-infested waters and mosquito bite at the barbie to find the clarity as a founder to know what should be prioritised and what is important? Yeah. Well, I think one of the things is, you know, stillness, self-reflection, perspective engagement with others that you know you know have exceptional experience and provide advice and you know your your might in the business you know that they might not even be in the same business as you but you know there are there are technical aspects of running a business that they're familiar with you know it might be a it might be a it might be a client proposition you know it might be a funding issue whatever it is there are people out there with massive expertise but you got to face it you got to take time you got to face it head on you know We forget so many things.

54:06I do this with people all the time. People that don't journal, a thought, a worry comes in and it's gone again because you're distracted or there's something else to do. And so that clarity of thought, that's the most challenging part, is the clarity of thought because then a hundred other things have happened by the time you come back to the same worry. And so clarity is definitely note-taking, journaling. And then that way as well. If you do have people whose advice you value, rather than just having to explain the whole context, you've got proof and evidence of clearly thought through situational material that you can present to them, which will give them much deeper insight so that they can help and give you advice.

54:52And also plus one to that presence. There was a great article I read about being in the moment. Half the time when you're in a meeting, you've got things dinging and buzzing and whatnot. And turning that off is a new muscle that we need. Absolutely. Rather than it being just shocking. Absolutely. I call that being where your feet are because I've been, I've lived a ton of my life. My feet are here. I'm somewhere else. And whether that's in business and that's human connection too. So vulnerability, you know, if you've got a, I've done this, I'm horrified that I've done this and I've looked and I've learned from it.

55:29You're in a meeting with a whole bunch of people and, you know, they're talking about stuff that maybe you do or don't need to be involved in you got big shit happening over here in your sitting how disrespectful is that yeah that means you are not with us like we know that you're busy and you've got pressures but you are not with us so that vulnerability but the presence being where your feet are in everything in life you know there's no point in being have an incredibly successful business you go home and you're not present you're not where your feet are and I showcase this in you know in my writing and you know when when you become you know really you know really clear about things you see things that other people don't language you know I removed a whole bunch of words from my vocabulary and my thoughts because you know hard disappointed can't a bunch of things busy I've removed from mine I say positively occupied instead of busy Busy is bullshit.

56:24Absolutely. And so the language is so important for your own, you know, your own psychology and people use the word hard way too often. Hard, you know, is you're living somewhere in Africa and you've got to go walk 15 kilometres to try and find some water to survive. That's hard. I want to ask in the few minutes we've got left, given the theme has been making that change, getting to that point where you make the change, can you share a simple first step that we should do let's say you know after listening to this you go to the loo or you go and grab a coffee or your book yeah sorry yeah that because there's a lot of yeah there's a lot of first steps I know there's I know you can go all the way through the book and everyone should be reading greatness doesn't care thank you but what would be the aside from the first step being going out and getting the book, what would be one change I can make in a moment that will mean that first step on what is a big journey?

57:27Yeah. Great question. Many, many steps. But, you know, standing back, you know, standing, finding a moment of stillness, taking a break, just literally finding time to process, write it down. um that that's the first step with anything is and that is a discipline in itself habits and discipline become your identity bad habits become your identity not dealing with stuff becomes your identity not learning not acquiring wisdom wisdom that becomes your identity so you you've you've got to stop you know you just have to stop because without mental you know clarity reflection whether it's your own growth you know what how did this issue or this problem how do i solve it whatever you got to stop and that's the toughest thing when you're so busy you're in business you're spending all your time just going going you're just you're just going to get nothing changes i'm just imagining going into a meeting and just and we do this with forum meetings to spend the first two or three minutes in silence pausing because you show up to a meeting you're running around absolutely so that's what i'm imagining and i also think the term busy is almost like distraction it is it's i am busy because i can avoid some things it's an excuse i'm busy is a validation your own validation or excuse of not doing what will help you what you need to do and sometimes that's the uncomfortable thing you know it might be an uncomfortable conversation with yourself that's the first uncomfortable conversation and then an uncomfortable conversation but it's just making excuses but not doing the things that will improve or change your life or your business that aren't going to be fun.

59:14I also don't like when people project, oh, I know you're so busy. No, I'm not because I'm going to, because they're expecting you not to be there for you. I'm not busy. I'm here for your question. Absolutely. That's my response every time too. It's like, no, for you, I've always got the time. Some people I don't have time for, but for you. And even my 7am text, you do have mine for that. so thank you that exactly you know i would i could lie there with my eyes closed but i'm just as happy to get yes and so and so the reflection out of that is as you know is people are saying that to you and that's just their perception you've gone too busy you're untouchable doing too many important things my problems my issues all the things that i see that are happening or going on i've actually got some ideas and some solutions but i'm kind of worried because you you're too busy so again that human connection i'm i've been guilty of that bring it home girlfriend all right well i'm going to ask one of the favorite questions that um simon asked is what brings you joy meaning making a difference to the world and other human beings that just brings me joy that is that is my purpose that is my and it's not an egotistical legacy so that i can leave this earth with um you know with with a comfort and the knowledge that i made up for the shit that i even had poor decisions or the things i you know whatever and And that I share because wisdom, and I got a long way to go, wisdom comes with responsibility.

1:00:54Wisdom, you must pass it on. That is as simple as that. And I didn't do a good enough job with my first book, so now I've come back, the second one, and gone, you know what, you can do a lot better. You know, I'm not a writer. I learned to write and I researched and I did all the other things and I'm doing everything every day to reach as many people as possible to make a difference. Well, I'm looking forward to the 14 principles or things that you have in there, see what I've nailed and see what I need to work on. I reckon you're doing pretty well, but I think there's going to be some things.

1:01:29Yeah, of course, there always is. Stretch. Thanks, Jase. I'm thinking Jase and the art of motorcycle maintenance is kind of the next piece that we're along the way, if you remember that one from a long time back. I will ask finally, what position did you want to play in footy? It was always the ego, the glory. You were a striker. I scored tons and tons of goals. Yep. It wasn't, you know, good for my ego but nothing else. The hand of Jase. The foot of Jase. And, you know, the thing that I've learned over the years is that you're nothing without everybody else. The team. without the team and the human connection.

1:02:11And I actually, one last thing, so I took that forward. I coached my son's football team, a bunch of 14-year-old boys, like how do you control and coach a bunch of 14-year-old boys? And I gave them some very simple principles. And the first one I would do before we played, I didn't fill their heads with technical stuff and whatever. And we would sit there on the ground, 14-year-old boys, I'd make them stop still before I go and I'd go, you look around you. look around and they'd all look around each other and I would go, you're not playing this game today for you. You're playing this game for all, you know, your colleagues and for your teammates around you.

1:02:47That's who you're playing for today, not for yourself. And you know what? They were actually the year before, they were very bottom that year. I took them over next year, won the premiership and won the grand final 4-0. Oh, my God, the Ted Lasso. or 14 boys. In Austria. In the Austria. At last now. I would thoroughly recommend the new series because it was dealing with team and cliques and everything. It's a great show and the wisdom there. Speaking of which, I am so looking forward to seeing the Swans women's team this Sunday at Henson Park. I will be there. Hopefully a record crowd. Come along.

1:03:26Great day, great tickets. But I do want to give a shout out to the Swans men's team. I was in Canberra for a friend's birthday so I couldn't be at the game. I sat down to watch it and what struck me immediately was in the dressing room was Coxie, the coach, and so many of the teammates were giving each other big hugs. There was a lot of emotional support. There was a heck of a lot of we are together, we've got each other's backs. And in that moment I really felt it and after a couple of really torrid weeks and the adversity that had occurred for the team, here they were in this final expecting, with everyone expecting Brisbane to smash them.

1:04:07Now, in the end, it was an extraordinary result and that's great, but to me that wasn't the important part. The important part was the way they interacted with each other before that game, the way they cared for each other and then you saw it on the field as well and I thought that was something extraordinary. and I am so back on the train after the trauma of the last couple of weeks. And you know what? I'm thinking they could do this. They could absolutely win this competition and it would be an interesting lesson for those who put that at jeopardy. I think it would also be a great validation of the decisions that the club made in dealing with what has happened.

1:04:47But I'm on the Swans train big time. We've got one more match to potentially be in the grand final. Of course, as you know, we've had some issues when it comes to grand finals in recent years and it's been 14 years since we've last won one despite the fact that we keep showing up. So perhaps coming back from the greatest adversity, failure, shame is their greatest victory. Yeah. I think it's absolutely possible now. But first of all, the brilliant women's team who got a little bit overshadowed but I've been playing fantastically so it's gonna be a great game on Sunday at Henson Park come on down to see that it'll be lots of fun what about you what are you doing for the weekend well I have found a place to live yes and so this weekend is council cleanup or Monday and so I will be eliminating and decluttering and get a ridden getting rid of stuff and lining my emotional digital and physical load you're doing Swedish trail cleaning I guess So I guess I am.

1:05:51Excellent. Well, I'm looking forward to having you as an interwestie and then you'll be coming to the Swans Games, the Swans Women's Games. Well, I've been to the ones that are close to me at the MCG. Yes, SCG. Yeah, I've been to SCG. Henson Park is a whole new level. All right. You'll have a great time. Thanks. Much more intimate and, you know, you feel the respect. Better wine, cheaper too. And interwesties. That is easier to get. All of that. But that is it for this week. Startup 360 is a smart comedy production produced and edited by the fabulous Matt Jackson. Always here. Great team player as well.

1:06:28Thank you so much, Matt. Thanks to Ella, to James, and to Deal for their support. Finally, congratulations to everyone who won in the Best in Tech Awards last night. Such a great night. Amazing. Even though I know it's going to be. We are remembering the future. We are remembering the future right now. But I hope you all had a great time. it's a privilege and an honour, and I am enormously grateful for the support that you give me, Magella, so many others who make this happen and make StartupDaily.net thrive. Don't forget to subscribe to Startup360 on Apple, Spotify, and, of course, watch it on YouTube, and subscribe to StartupDaily.net for all the latest Startup news.

1:07:11You have a great weekend. We'll see you next Friday. Bye for now. For now.

1:07:197.