281. How This Sequoia-Backed Founder Turned Venture Partner Invests w/ Rishabh Kaul | Hoxton Ventures

0:00Amardeep Parmar:Startups Inside Out, you've got Rishabh here today. So as an investor, what do you invest in? I'm fairly generalist as an investor. I'm a founder turned investor. I spend a lot of time in enterprise software, in robotics, developer tools. So that's known turf and that's something I enjoy immensely. And now everything is AI. So there's obviously AI sprinkled across all of these categories, but fairly generalist. I've been spending a lot of time around consumer startups as well. I feel there's an interesting wave there. And you meant you were founder turned investor, right? What did you find? Tell us a bit about that.

0:33So I've been in operating roles for over a decade. Grew up in India, so was involved with the early startup ecosystem there. This was like early 2010s when the e-commerce boom was growing. Moved to the UK during the pandemic and then was involved with a developer tool startup here as well. So, so being doing a lot of operating roles, one of them was a robotics company, it's called Gray Orange Robotics. This was right out of uni. I knew the founders really well. There was hardly any robotics happening in India. And these guys were like super passionate. I was like, if someone is going to do something in robotics in India, it's probably going to be these guys, help them raise their pre-seed round, and then joined that company as a chief of staff.

1:18The company is now doing really well. I think they've raised more than 300 million since then. I don't know the exact revenue number, but it's a pretty large, either double-digit or triple-digit number. And the company is thriving, relocated to the U.S. That experience gave me the courage to start my own startup, which is called Belong. Belong was in the recruitment space. And then we expanded to other things around people analytics and employer branding and stuff like that. A lot of the stuff that we did at that time seemed pretty novel. so we were like you can't wait for people to apply for jobs uh you have to hunt them down a lot like what headhunters do but using technology we can democratize the whole thing uh you know start selling that as a product to startups and large-scale companies did that for about eight years we were backed by investors like sequoia matrix um and then after that uh came back again uh to early stage startups where i was a cmo of a developer tools startup here in london uh so all these experiences i mean the common theme is they're all b2b a large part of it is all enterprise and in each of these cases it's with people who are known for a while so i love working with people who i get along with so yeah that's otherwise there's nothing else that's common right one is in hr one is in robotics one is in developer tools and the surface they seem very

2:40Amardeep Parmar:different because you're obviously doing very well in the founder side and like even the operational side as well what made you then want to go into investing how did that journey start into that I actually don't think I did very well as a founder financially. I'm very proud of the team we built, the product we built. We had a lot of customers. But like, I mean, when the pandemic happened, HR tech startups were the first to go belly up. But I think I, over the years, I ended up spending a lot of time advising a lot of founders. And you realize that a lot of problems that people face, there are patterns to it, right?

3:16whether it's go-to market, whether it's founder conflict, fundraising, you see the same themes coming up again and again. And I really enjoyed working with the founders, especially at the earliest stages, which is typically, you know, at inception, pre-seed, seed, leading up to series A. Most of the times post-series A is when, you know, they've grown up and, you know, they start getting a sense of what they want to do. But I think those early stages is what I really, really enjoy. Even in the startups that I've been in, the kinds of roles I did were often the zero to one roles, new product launches, figuring out things.

3:53So in some ways, investing was just another sort of offshoot of that thing of being there at the very beginning. The second part, which is also it goes deep within me is I've been a community person. I enjoy building communities. And so investing in startups, discovering, you know, early stage opportunities. before anyone else as there is a strong community angle to it, right? Where you figure out, you know, how do you build that network? How do you build that muscle in evaluating? And I think both of these things are something which are very core to me. They come very naturally to me. And so I thought investing is a good way.

4:29And then the kicks of it, right? Being getting the bragging rights that, you know, I discovered this company when nobody else did and then played a tiny little part. I think those things give a reason, a purpose for me to wake up every morning.

4:42Amardeep Parmar:You said about like trying to figure out which startups you invest in as well. When you first started, do you think there's any mistakes you made or things you didn't, now you understand best than you once did? While investing in startups? Yeah, like there's any decisions you made or why you maybe invest in some companies. The first few companies that I invested in were just in friends, right? These are people that you have seen, you have known. in fact I would say that was simpler because you've had 10 years sometimes often more seeing that person work and so you don't really even need to know the problem they're solving the markets all of that you just like I know this guy I've seen him work 10-15 years I know this person is not going to give up that's relatively easier the harder part is once you start taking investing more seriously then you know you're gonna meet people who you've not known for a long time and they're gonna sell you a story or you know what's real what's not what might make it more complex is sometimes you might have to take a decision very quickly because the round is getting filled and there it's possible to make mistakes right some of the mistakes would be there are times i've invested and this is more as an angel investor right but like I invested in a company just because they had good lead investors right like a tier one lead investor leading a company I was like let's what you can't go wrong right there are cases where that didn't turn out to be a good decision and there are cases where I would see a founder and they would be like super gritty and they're really smart they're able to iterate on their ideas but they were in a pretty pretty you know bad space bad market now you know the market wins uh but i didn't uh appreciate the fact that you know really good founders can who are self-aware can can change and pivot uh into the right markets uh some of those have been very very very expensive uh mistakes in terms of how how how much how much money i could make had i invested in some of those companies so so yeah there's been both sides What I might say earlier is how the game works right?

6:58Amardeep Parmar:And that because you were a founder and because you did well yourself before, do you think that helps you get onto the best cap tables? Because when you're talking to the founders, you've got a relationship with them or how much of an influence you've met is? It can be. I think it's a bit like, I don't know, it's a bit like, you know how if you're a good cricketer can you be a good commentator first principles would say yes because you know the game but there are thousands of others like you as well so i think what eventually makes you stand out is something unique that that you are known for right and there's different ways to win in that game one way could just be you know hey i've got the money i'm gonna come and quickly commit that's value for founders right the other could be uh okay my check sizes might not be so large but i will more than compensate for that by having a crazy belief in you before anyone else does like i will go scream at the top of every uh building you know how excited i am about you guys amplify that message before anyone else does and louder than anyone else does.

8:17That has a huge amount of value, right? Or I'm going to become an expert in this field, which could be either an industry or it could be a function, sales, marketing, hiring, whatever it is, right? And I'm going to help you there. I think those are the things which are more enduring. And then that compounds over time, because you help one founder, that founder goes meets other founders, word of mouth, it spreads right just relying on what you did in the past can become stale very quickly because think about it right if you go talk to somebody who is younger uh they will not know a lot of the companies that you and i would have known uh as recently as five years ago they're like what is that like if you go tell a i don't know like a like a uh 22 year old founder mule soft right mule soft was a seven billion dollar acquisition they'd be like what is mule soft like i have no idea right so so i think resting on past florals this this industry churns very very very quickly so so i think staying relevant constantly adding value um and and and realizing that you know that that network has to constantly be kept alive uh and so and so that's that's that's how you get

9:28Amardeep Parmar:around to cap tables i think if it is as well because we've been over for years now the people who were like super loud at the beginning or you saw them every event there's something just disappeared and it's just it's natural because we always hear this big stat about nine percent of startups fail but then when you're living it you see actually oh okay these people were doing really well two years ago and now they're doing something else they've just disappeared as well but you mentioned about the word of mouth what founders are saying what do you think they say about you so the founders that you invest in that you have a good relationship with yeah what do you think they're recommending you about there'll be some things that will be common that everyone will say and then there'll be some things that will depend on the individual relationship that I have with him.

10:09I think most of the founders will say that Rishabh is someone who is extremely helpful, he is quite selfless, he picks up the call whenever I message or call him and he's always there. They'll also say that he's honest, if he doesn't know about something, he'll tell you he doesn't know but he goes out of his way to be there with you during the trenches right in specific cases I think I think they'll say that you know he's he's able to understand certain parts of the founder journey that it might be hard for me to discuss with say a VC that I could with him for example imagine a case where you're having co-founder difficulties and you have to let a co-founder go right this is this is like i remember one of my investees came uh to me and they're like you know this person is now not like we decided to part ways how do we figure out the equity situation this guy still has like one third of the company and it's going to be dead weight how do we manage that right and so there's a there's multiple ways to do it but there are certain shitty ways of doing it and i was like don't do it in a shitty way here's a smart way of doing it right So there's a lot of such things that I think a lot of founders would talk about.

11:28Amardeep Parmar:And you won't verify the angel hat and the DC hat. How does it differ the way you look at investments with the G &A? Oh, it's different. It's so different. In the angel hat, it's your own money. But the ticket sizes are small. And you can take certain... You don't have to convince anyone, just yourself. maybe your spouse uh but you you can just like write it off after you you invest in it right and as an angel your motivations are very different like like as an angel my motivation was not necessarily to make money of course i would evaluate it from that lens but like it was more about backing an interesting idea wanting to work with a certain kind of a founder uh maybe even like building a network within certain cohorts, right?

12:19As a VC, your outlook changes because firstly, you have to return a fund. And so the kinds of deals that you might do as an angel, you will not do it. Your bar is much higher and that also changes with the kind of fund you're in. So if you're in a 10 million, 15 million, small solo GP or like a angel fund, you're thinking closer to an angel in terms of your own lead rounds, you don't have board seats you try to help the best to your abilities but eventually like you're not on the board uh versus when when you're on a fund you can actually shape the direction of the company you are a fiduciary you're managing somebody else's money the outcomes have to be really really large you also have to think about rights so like as an angel when you're signing a term sheet you're like hey man don't worry just don't don't be a dick to me and just like you know i'm gonna sign this and send it across uh as a vc there's a reason every vc firm has a legal team and a finance team because you're like if everything goes well that's great but there can be down rounds there can be financing rounds where you can get massively diluted and there can be other cases right so so you start thinking about some of those things much more much more carefully it's a very different kind of a role and many people don't like it like I hear from a lot of people saying you know I thought I would like VC it just feels like a lot of operational work like versus an angel I'm just going and doing the cool stuff but VC seems like a drag I've heard this from a lot of people and so it's important to know where you stand do you really enjoy that stuff the other reason it's different is so as an angel even when it comes to liquidity right so as an angel you will have an opportunity in a lot of cases with every subsequent rounds the rest of the capital actually wants you out in some ways right they want to clean you up if the company is not doing well then sure like we're all in the same but if the company is doing well and it's getting markups people want you out to create more room as a VC who leads things are very different if you led the round and you own like 20 % or 15 % of the company you can't exit the only cases where you will exit are the companies that you don't want to exit because everybody wants it but the places in the middle it's very hard for you to exit and get liquidity so you're seeing things like secondaries, funds and things that come up but otherwise it's hard so you have to start thinking in those ways those things start mattering a little bit.

15:02Amardeep Parmar:Hello, hello. I hope you've enjoyed the show so far. I'm Amrit Parma, co-founder of BayHQ and the host of this show. For those of you who don't know, BayHQ is the community for high growth, Asian heritage founders and investors in the UK. Over 7 ,500 people have attended our events. 200 people have been for our impact programs. And obviously there's been over 250 episodes of this podcast. If you want to join us and take part in the program when it comes to the events, go to www.bayhq.com forward slash join. We also just released our first ever book called Startups for Outsiders, which you can get on Amazon now and the link is in the bio.

15:43Amardeep Parmar:Hope to see you soon at our event. Hope you enjoy the rest of the episode. And what part of VC have you enjoyed? You said it's very different, but you're obviously going down that path as well after being an angel for quite some time. What do you enjoy about VC or the different way of doing things? I think there's a bunch of things that I enjoy. And obviously still early days, I'm also sort of learning a lot of things. I think the most important thing that I enjoy is the team. You're not alone. You have really smart folks who've been doing this for a while that challenge your thinking. and you see how you actually go, build, or select that enduring company, the entire cycle.

16:33I think the second part that I really enjoy is sort of also seeing how the whole fundraising aspect of it works. Like how do your investors view you? They have a very different way of looking at the world, right? like you are essentially fitting into a multi-variate equation that they have right uh which

16:55Amardeep Parmar:can also be humbling okay uh the thing i always find amazing when people talk about vc vc is such a tiny amount compared to the overall private markets yeah like p is way bigger like but in this bubble we think about vc as the top but actually it's like tiny part of the overall puzzle for like many lps right especially the pantheons and the larger companies as well right right and it's really interesting Nima right it is I mean it's certainly the loudest but there's a reason for that right I think I think it's it's super interesting how that's also evolving like the VC firms are becoming bigger like you're seeing a lot of VC firms starting to do PE style deals so so there's a bit of sort of evolution happening in that whole sort of space but but yeah I think I think that that whole part of it, the whole fundraising part is a muscle which you start developing after a few years because the first fund is always friends and family, you know, maybe a family office here and there.

18:01From second, third fund onwards is when you start talking to institutions, start getting very different. So that's the other part that while I'm not obviously involved in the fundraising just sort of you know listening to what are the kinds of questions that we get asked how do you present uh the fund is is is something which is super interesting for me and then i think just coming back i think the other part that i really enjoy is just helping helping the founders uh you've done an investment how do you make it grow founders have all kinds of challenges that they face uh often many of them fall either around operational stuff could be hiring fundraising stuff like that but also some of the other questions around you know how do you think about uh the company's direction and you know like what do you do when you have 50 000 competitors springing up uh every day because the space you thought you were doing at that time you thought it was a boring space and suddenly you know it became a hot space and now you have like a new competitor coming up every day i think working with the founders figuring out those things is is is also something that i really enjoy that was as well we're seeing that that keeps me closer to the operating part as well so i i'm under no pretense that you know once i stopped operating i'm i'm not an operator the field evolves but like working closely seeing across a portfolio you know what is working for each company at that point of time uh helps at least keep you current to some extent right like we've seen that a lot of founders now especially

19:38Amardeep Parmar:like people in our programs about they're really worried about okay what can i build if ai is making things so easy to compete with and how can founders even think about that now and as an investor when you're looking at a startup okay before okay they can have a bit of a moat because it'll take time for other people to build it now and it seems to be so easy or there seems to be so much like chaos in this ecosystem how do you get that certainty around this is a startup worth backing that can manage some of that competition well how are you thinking about it it's obviously such a yeah uh iteration now yeah there's there's different ways to to navigate uh and a lot of it starts with you know having having that conversation with yourself every day what kind of investor am I what do I want to back you can have certain sort of you know ideas as an entire partnership but then even at an individual level you know what what is it that I resonate with I think those things are it's a constant conversation right so now one way to approach this is you know I don't want to I can't control the fact that if creating something has become easier, there's going to be more people getting into it.

20:56So it might not, I might think it might not cost so much, but that might not accurately be true. It might not cost so much to create an MVP, but now to, you know, grow to the next stage, it might be equally expensive. Or I'm just spending on something else, but like the total quantum is not going down. And so one way to think of it is, okay let me take a riskier view let me take a more ambitious 5, 10, 20 year view and let me go back those things that people are not looking at today with the hope that people will start caring about it a year down the line. If they don't care about it two three years on the line then you're in trouble as well but there is there are enough opportunities where you can find something really interesting at hopefully a reasonable price.

21:50Might not be cheap but you don't want to pay stupid prices.

21:56So that's one way of looking at it. The other way of looking at it is okay well if this is a very very big space and there is a lot of noise there's this one team that has figured out an interesting maybe not hack but a technique or whatever to give them a head start by a few months and it's good enough that they can execute on this they're really good at executing but they're also really good at reiterating and technical prowess so in which case yes it is a frothy or a red maybe not red but like fairly competitive space but there's no clear winner yet and you know it's a big market so that's the other way of looking at it like somebody's going to be a winner why not this company right so that's where you start thinking more about you know staying power great execution capabilities versus in the first category you have a bit more time where you're like you know what we can maybe go hire somebody who can execute if they're really good on technology.

23:00GTM might not be so strong. Like very different approaches, right? Yeah. The third would also be things like, you know, let's look at regions where nobody else is looking at. The whole world discovered the Nordics in the last 18 months. Nobody

23:21Amardeep Parmar:cared about it till then. And you can see that, right? How many farms exist there other than a couple. I feel like something like that might be similar. Sitting in the UK, it fascinates me how little overlap the UK has with France. It's just a couple of hours away, the Eurostar, but like how many UK funds have a French office? They have Berlin offices, they don't have Paris offices, right? It has been a different kind of an ecosystem. same thing could be said about eastern europe so i think there's there's interesting opportunities that also just come up by being in a region where you don't have to compete with 50 other uh 50 other funds which gives you time to get to know the founder and and take a call right so so i think there's there's so that the other part is historically you would and this is where you get into the fund size versus the kind of thing so historically you would you know say okay you what I'm going to spend more time on maybe understanding the market getting to know the founder and all that stuff that's the only diligence that you could do and that's great as long as the ticket sizes are small right so you're putting a million dollars in with very little sort of there is no business diligence to be done but understand the market and the founder great right it works it works it doesn't you know whatever right like it's it's priced into your fund model.

24:49It starts getting tricky when you're applying the same approach, but the founder is now raising$10 million. Like there are three seed rounds happening at$10 million with the same amount of little diligence, right? Is that a game that you want to play? Right. So, so I think there's enough of these conversations and you can go and look at anything i think i think for me personally i i enjoy spending time with founders that are underdogs uh i feel like it's like an immigrant thing like uh um you know i think people who don't have the right pedigree might not be in the right circles but are hungry are are gritty are really smart.

25:38I'm obviously a bit more biased towards B2B enterprise and things like that. But honestly, I think I think being able to, you know, meet someone who just sort of bowls you over with their energy and every subsequent conversation that you have with them feels, makes the previous conversation look completely different. And so you see them growing extremely. The delta is really high. Like that's, that's, that's like super super exciting uh because then you you lean in more as well right you're like you know uh how how can i make this person even more successful it gets this infectious kind of thing i think that's that's something that i personally uh what would i enjoy uh the most so that's that's

26:22Amardeep Parmar:what i i i look for uh we're talking about like the valuations at the moment as well we said where now if somebody comes from a traditional pedigree background of some kind They're raising these massive rounds to begin with. And if you're raising at like a 50 million, 60 million, like first round, that exit has to be so much bigger for you to return your fund, right? And then when you're back in the underdogs, usually the valuations are lower as well. And on the underdog, I think a lot of people listening to this are probably going to be on the underdog side, right? So they're going to be thinking, okay, I'm an underdog, but how do I portray that I'm somebody worth investing in when I don't have Harvard on my resume or I don't have, I worked at Revolut?

27:07Amardeep Parmar:And how do you try and pick this up with people where when you look at their background, it's not obvious that they're the kind of person?

27:16You have an honest conversation with yourself saying, what do you want to do?

27:24And talk to a few more people that might have gone through that path or read up about it online or try to read the room when you talk to investors. And hopefully, sooner than later, you realize what are the parts where you have an edge and what are the parts where, you know, you feel that you might have to work harder. And once you have that honest conversation, you realize that how is this game set up? Where are the parts where I might not have certain advantages that somebody else might have? you can then at least start thinking. So the way it goes is something like, well, if I'm trying to create something which is where I can just quickly show a lot of traction, right, great.

28:13Somebody else might be able to raise without showing the traction. In my case, I might have to show a little bit more traction so that that's where my credibility comes in because I might be competing with 200 other people that also don't have credentials. And so in the perfect market, how does somebody stand out? You'll be like, okay, let's go with the person who's worked at, you know, a top AI foundation. But then there are certain places where it's going to be even harder for someone who doesn't get the game to win. For example, a kind of industry, so imagine an industry where you need to raise tons of capital and you're not going to see a product out for a long time like a foundational model right so if you go and you've not worked in that space right because a lot of these companies that are going and raising that round it's some what are they really raising on they're raising on the fact that hey i have an insight that other people don't i have a network which will allow me to attract talent and i know the best people in that field and if you bring eight of those best people in that room we will build the best product in 18 months and we're going to need whatever, let's say$15 million over 18 months to raise.

29:30Until then, you will not have anything. You might have some benchmarks or whatever. If that is the game you're playing, then you need to be self-aware that, okay, this is what people are going to be looking for. How can I go convince that other investor that I'm talking to that I'll be able to attract a similar talent? It's very different if it's a you know a vibe coding app right or something where you could release a product out there show a lot of feedback um and and you'll be able to so i think understanding the kind of game is is is really important i think i think the really really uh stellar founders and i would say it's easier to do that when you're younger will just find their way to hustle into the right circles right they'll be like dude like i don't know anyone what do i have to do do i have to apply to ic do i have to take a flight and go to the valley do i have to become buddies with this person who can connect me to these like their brain will be thinking in in in those ways right like i think i think you you play to your strengths and and that's that's the way to to win in this game because eventually the aim is what they eventually the aim is to build something that you're going to be proud of something that has a shot at greatness something which is going to be something that customers value and so all of these other things stem from there and you figure out

31:04Amardeep Parmar:where do I have my you know strong suit I think that you said as well is like the game is unfair and there's no point pretending otherwise. Like if you're going against somebody who's got parents, you can bankroll them and you don't have that, then you can complain about it or you can try and figure out, like you said, how can I gain an edge? And there's so many people I know who, it's like you said, it's like they figure out how to get into these rooms. At some point, I don't know how that person went into this room, but they keep doing it and then eventually they get familiar and then they get their relationships really well and you see it so often, right?

31:39Amardeep Parmar:Because I think what a lot of people forget and it's part of the LinkedIn culture and stuff. There's a lot of people who, you just think they've always been successful. You don't realize actually they had six months of not paying themselves and six months of things all going wrong and self-doubt. Obviously, as a founder, you would have known that yourself, right? When you're going through that experience, even when you're going to try and raise a fund, everyone kind of looks at VCs as they know everything. But VCs also think, okay, how do I convince an LP to now invest in me too? Yeah. In fact, it's harder, right?

32:08Because as a founder, you can still I mean there's many more kinds of companies than there are VC firms

32:18Amardeep Parmar:right like imagine being a fund going to an LP saying yeah we also are a generalist investor investing you know 1 to 5 million dollar checks at seed and pre-seed that doesn't sound that differentiated sure we've got a few whatever right we've got a platform team that helps in hiring versus you know here's a new startup for myself i think i think vcs spend a lot of time on crafting the story and and uh uh you know figuring out how how they can create uh that differentiation and and edge uh as well and you obviously believe a lot in immigrant founders and people from the desperate right why is that why do you believe in them so much i'm one uh but i think historically if you look at if you look at a lot of value that's been created right like in in startups there's enough historical precedence that migrants uh and immigrants have have created insane valuants because you are the life experiences that you have uh you're changing countries you're changing cultures you're facing rejection you're trying to find a job where you don't know anyone I mean this is entrepreneurship right like you've already had the boot camp or your parents had the boot camp if you're from the you know I was going to say Asian community but I think it applies to everyone like things like frugality are taught to you very early on so I think you're sort of hungry you know you're different you know and there's enough experiences right you could have been bullied as a kid you could have felt out of place you might not have the right accent to fit in you don't understand you know suddenly the different food you need to eat like it's all kinds of challenges right and i think that builds the different people react to it in different ways and i think you know it it can have a strong effect on on entrepreneurial entrepreneurial behavior i don't think a lot of people grow up thinking that we are going to be entrepreneurs but they might have the building blocks that that you know later make them make them successful so I think I think it's it's you know you need to work harder as as an immigrant and you're trying to prove yourself I think I think it's that that doesn't go away and I think that makes it just you I also feel like maybe you might value things more when you get it so I think that that that goes a long way and you always always want to you know back those kinds of people and we've seen that historically right like u.s as a country has been built by immigrant has been enough studies even when i look at europe uh like when i look at the uk a lot of the big stories have come from iranians from eastern europeans uh from people from russia um a lot of the really really big outcomes uh here if you look at like deep mind revolute you know a bunch of the fintech companies like i mean it's it's it's insane right and now we're seeing uh that sort of accelerate more with with the south asian diaspora i think there's just so many people and and it's it's a math game right you just look at you pick out all the tech companies and you look at okay after the CEO, the next line, the engineers, the product managers, the designers, the marketers.

35:53There's so many people from the South Asian community. You start looking at immigration data. Where are people coming from? One in two are coming from places like India, right? So you're like, okay, I extrapolate that over the next 10 years. What does that mean? That means that, okay, just by the law of large numbers, many of them are going to start you know starting up that's one one whole part of it right the second part of it is also I think immigrants are more I want to word it carefully but I would like to think they are more flexible so imagine the scenario where if I'm in the UK and I meet an immigrant and I'm like hey you know what if you start this company I think it's going to be really you're more likely to see more success in the valley who's more likely to just be like, great, I'm going to pack my bags and go to the valley tomorrow.

36:51My sense is it would be somebody who's an immigrant because they're like, we've already done it once. Versus somebody who's grown up here, you know, might be harder. I don't know, right?

37:01Amardeep Parmar:Like, that's what I hear. It's a muscle, right? It's once you've done it once, it's easier to do it again. Exactly. It's less scary. Yeah. So I feel like it's increasingly, you know, like it's also clear that the adaptability and things like that are a little bit, you just have like a thicker skin, but more adaptable. I think those things, those things translate very, very well into entrepreneurship. Are there any other trends that you're finding really interesting at the moment, just in the investing space and how things are changing? So obviously like the increase in immigrants and there's people at the lowest stages of startups now start their own companies.