Better Homes, Better Lives: The Switchee Mission with CEO Tom Robins

0:00Welcome back to The Serial Entrepreneur. I'm your host Anna Wood. On today's episode, I'm joined by Tom Robbins, the CEO of Switchy. We discuss Switchy's mission of improving the quality of life of people who live in rented homes, how founders can make or break businesses, and the lessons he has learned as a serial scale-upper. Let's dig in. How are you? I'm good, Anna. Good morning. Good morning. so to begin every podcast episode we ask our signature icebreaker question which is what's your favorite breakfast cereal and why oh i mean so there's uh my favorite breakfast cereal which i i don't really eat more is jordan's country crisp and i i went that was like it's basically it looks like oats but i think it's pure sugar it's like pure sugar disguised as oats with little little bits of strawberries in it.

0:56And I had a client and they wanted to go for a meeting and they were like, oh, we'll just go to Jordan's. I was like, what do you mean we'll go to Jordan's? Anyway, you can go to the Jordan's factory. It's like a family business. And so I had this meeting at the home, the pilgrimage to my cereal of choice, Jordan's Country Crisp. So yeah, that was a little treat in life. Oh my God, I didn't know that. Where is it? so it's yeah yeah great question right it's just sort of like kind of hitching kind of bedford kind of way it's not far not far off the a1 and there's like a whole kind of coffee shop and you can tour the mill and it's like an art center right i'm gonna have to visit i'm gonna i would recommend a visit i think it was it was a really they got a little water mill because because it isn't old school you know like they know on the jordan we're gonna spend an hour on a podcast talking about Jordan's Country Crisp, I'd just like to be clear that other cereals are available and in no way are we sponsored.

1:54But if they would like to send me some free stash, I'd be really up for it. You know the mill on the packet, like it's on the front of the packet, right? That mill physically exists, right? And so it's still got the water wheel and beautiful. Well, that's a great story. And you're expecting shreddies or something, right? Yeah, I've never heard someone say Jordan's Country Crisp and then also give like an explanation that's like oh yeah i went there oh great so would you be able to introduce yourself and tell me about your background cool so hello my name is tom robbins i'm the chief executive of business called switchy um switchy exists to improve the quality lives for people living living in rented homes i'm a serial scale-up professional that's sort of what i do so i've been working with switching now for about five years business been going for about 10 years and before that i've done another number of other scale-ups in a range of different sectors from sort of yeah tmt pure sass consulting services and sass all sorts of bits and pieces great so what is switchy so switchy switchy was originally founded to to solve an injustice and that is like how is it how is it that there's a whole bunch of technology out there that helps people that can afford to pay their heating bills to reduce the cost of their heating bills but that same technology is not available to help people that really struggle to pay their heating bills.

3:13The business was formed 10 years ago by four people coming together, a real interesting mix of skills from the technology, from the entrepreneurial, from the sales. It's a fantastic group of people. They set out to really sit on this mission. It's still the mission we're on today. Fuel poverty, social injustice, and the poverty premium are very much the heart of what we do. We've grown that now. We've expanded it. Now we look to work with social landlords to help them understand the performance of their assets and the welfare of their tenants, all at the same time by reducing their tenants' costs of living and improving their quality of life.

3:49So it's a really nice package. It's an impact business. We're a B Corp, and we're trying to bring that space that says, right, you can do a good business and do good, right? It's not great. It's not the best for parties. It's not particularly brilliant for pubs on a Friday night saying, what do you do? But it's a really impactful space, and it's one that we really believe in. Yeah, amazing. So there's a device that goes in the home. How does it work? Oh, let's get techie on this. So from a resident perspective, it behaves like a smart thermostat. So they've got, you know, like a Nest or a Hive or a Tardo or any of those kind of products.

4:22And it's sitting in a central location that's constantly working to save them money on their heating bill. They understand why it's there. It's a trusted device. It's got a SIM card in it. It doesn't rely on Wi-Fi, which means you can just screw it to the wall anywhere and it just kind of works. and it gives sort of three capabilities to the landlord. Firstly, it gives them connectivity. So they understand from a whole bunch of sensor data what's going on inside the home and we run algorithms on propensity for overheating, underheating, fuel poverty, condensation, dampen, mould. Why, you know, the energy performance, all that kind of stuff that's really important to understand.

4:55Secondly, it gives them a control capability. So it's controlling the boiler, heat pump, solar array, battery storage, you know, that kind of actually being able to make changes and optimise the way that a home works. And then finally, it gives a whole new communication medium. So by having the device in a central location, it's got a four and a half inch tele-color touchscreen. And that means you can send messages and workflows and QR codes and all sorts of stuff. And we just get a phenomenal response rate to us as a trusted device. We get like a 90 % response rate in 24 hours from residents.

5:23And most landlords would expect a 20 % response rate over six weeks. You know, it's just an absolute game changer. It's being a sort of a trusted, helpful game, you know, device inside people's homes. Yeah, great. So why was the decision to kind of power it by like a SIM card rather than Wi-Fi? Oh, great question. Mainly because there just isn't reliable Wi-Fi in social housing for a number of reasons. People in social housing typically are much more price aware. So people will change their Wi-Fi a lot. A lot of people have mobile devices and not necessarily have a Wi-Fi at home. And ultimately, you know, you want that certainty of connection.

6:00You've got to consider this less like a benefits device and a lot more like a piece of infrastructure. So you've got that certainty of understanding what's going on and the ability to interact and to do something and to make things better when you need to. Great. Obviously, you said that you came to the business kind of around five years after it started. But what was the inspiration behind the founding of the company? and fundamentally it was about the application of technology for those that need it most and and it's still something that we are very passionate about today now when we look at the pyramid of needs we see that an awful lot of money goes into the technology at the top of the pyramid of needs you know the the experience of the experience on gambling apps and shopping websites is is phenomenal it's phenomenal the fine minds that go into making our gambling experiences better but that same amount of technology and effort is not applied at the bottom of the pyramid of needs.

6:56So that's our sense of safety. That's our home. That's everything that enables us to create a society that we live in. And so we really believe from that very first kind of conversation, this is about applying smart brains and great technology right at the bottom of the pyramid of needs is going to have the biggest impact on the society that we love and live in. Great. So how do you work with housing associations and social housing providers? who may be risk-averse? So we've been on a journey. It's been 10 years. I think in the early days, we had this great bit of tech and you have that kind of, many people that have great ideas, you're like, well, why wouldn't you want this?

7:39This is like, isn't this brilliant? Like, this is going to fly off the shelves. And it's a great story, actually, because we came up with this bit of technology and it really came down to asking the wrong question. We came up with this bit of technology and we said, we've got this smart thermostat-style product for social housing for tenants? Do you think it's a good idea? And we spoke to housing associations and local authorities and they said, yeah, it's a great idea. We think it's a brilliant idea. It was fantastic. So people put the nights and weekends and they worked around their jobs and they put the hours, they made a bit of tech.

8:09So we went back to social housing providers and said, we've done it. We've made it. Do you want to buy some? And they said, no. And we said, but you said it was a really good idea. And they said, yeah, we think it's a really good idea, but we're not going to buy any, right? because it's going to save the resident money on their heating bill. What's that got to do with us? We think it's a great idea. We'd love you to have some. Maybe our charitable foundation can have some to help tenants. And that's the point we realized that actually, if we want to make a societal change like this, then we need to look at the entire benefit cycle.

8:35So we need to deliver to landlords. It's got to be in their interests. And we very much see, particularly working in the social sector, that if it's in a landlord's interest, it really is in a tenant's interest as well in terms of delivering better services. So we've really felt in the early days that it wasn't just about doing a cool thing. It was actually, no, we've got to deliver ROI. And that's really been our focus for quite some time now. We've seen the legislation has changed. So we've seen that social housing has gone perhaps from a best endeavours, a sort of a semi-charitable, a kind of you should be lucky to have it kind of approach.

9:11Much more now through to the appreciation that housing and particularly social housing is a fundamental piece of infrastructure. And the legislation's evolved to reflect that. And you've got to start thinking about housing in the same way as we think about our electricity grid or the train lines, right? We need to have the same assurances, controls, security around those kind of assets. And the legislation has followed that. So now we help our customers be compliant with that legislation, really exceed that legislation, but also we deliver a tangible ROI. So it's how will we save them money? And that comes down to better engagement with tenants.

9:45It comes down to dealing with things proactively rather than reactively. And really simply, one of the largest housing associations in the country, they said that if we understand a problem through Switchy, we can solve it in three visits. If we find out from the resident, then it typically takes seven or more visits. And just that difference of it being significantly cheaper to be proactive is absolutely the heart of what we do. Do you think changing legislation has worked in your favour? Some of it. Look, favour is an interesting one. We're not here to solve a legislation problem. We're here on a mission.

10:21And if the legislation aligns, that's really helpful. Some of those pieces of legislation have been fantastic, you know, and very much aligned to what we do. The Fitness for Human Habitation Act, the Social Housing Act, both are driving towards higher standards. They're driving towards, you know, better outcomes, you know, and we're really supportive of all of that. Sometimes it's going to get a bit difficult. So one of the pieces of legislation that's coming out at the moment, AWAB's law, is particularly focused on condensation damp and mould. But the tact that's been taken is that they want landlords to react better to condensation damp and mould.

10:54That wording's a bit dangerous because I don't think what that would suggest is that you stop being proactive and you'd spend more time and effort being reactive, right? And that's not what we want anyone to do, right? We really want people to be more proactive. So sometimes we're working, we're lobbying with government to make sure that they get what they want out of the legislation that they're writing. Great. And I think with something like that, it's much better to kind of prevent it rather than fix it. Of course, right? If we measure people how good we are reacting, it's human nature, right?

11:31If you set a measure that says, you know, how fast do you react when you know about something? We're going to get to a place where people go, well, look, I'll find out at the last possible minute and I'll do the smallest possible thing. And therefore, I pass. Winner. And you're like, no, no, that's not what we're trying to achieve. So you can absolutely see me. You can see the intent when the legislation started. And we're just working really hard with government to make sure that they get the outcome that they want from this. Great. So earlier on, you mentioned that Switchy is a certified B Corp.

12:02What does this mean in practice for your culture and operations of the company? So I'm actually quite delighted to say it didn't actually mean a lot changed. We've been an impact business since inception. If you look at the people that are investors and supporters in that journey, they really believe in the impact, not only that we have delivered, but that we can deliver. So that's been very much in our DNA. all the way through. But if you look at, are you good at people? Are you good at environment? Are you good at supply chain? They're all different measures. And what we really love about B Corp, and I think the B Corp movement in general, is it's pulled together this concept of what does good look like?

12:44Not just what does good look like, are you good at recycling? Are you good at supporting people coming back to work after babies? There's all of these concepts. And it's actually saying no no as a business we are good at the environment and our shareholders and our customers and our employees and putting it all together and i think b corp has been fantastic for that so when we first did our b corp assessment i think it was i think it's sort of however whatever the pass mark was without doing anything we were pretty much just short of the pass mark i think that's what we're most proud of this is kind of what we're doing anyway but uh what we were then able to do was go cool here's what good looks like and that was really powerful for all of our teams to then go and take those policies and those concepts and the ideas and really run after them and to do something sort of different and more exciting and more interesting with that.

13:33So yeah, it's been really great. I think the B Corp is brilliant. It gives a real benchmark of what good looks like. It means we can all turn up the same and say, look, we have the same shared expectation of what good looks like. One of our last investors joined is a B Corp and really it was important to them that we were a B Corp. So you can start to see this momentum in the movement, which is yeah fantastic and do you think being kind of like an impact-led business do you think being a b corp kind of gives you that step up within the industry i mean i'd say it's more of a hygiene factor to be honest you know i don't feel it's a step up anymore you know you don't look at it and you know that no one's looking down on anybody but i think if you're a bit if you're if you're an impact business then you'll find everything in b corp straightforward helpful best practice well aligned you know i see it much more as a as a as a hygiene factor great so what are the challenges that you've faced on the journey so far and how have you managed to overcome them uh we've we've had we've had many challenges on the journey you know there's been you know as any scale up as any startup you know you're coming to the market with a mission and and do people want to buy it and i you know when we first joined the market 10 years ago the concept of internet of things devices the concept of having things in people's home the concept of uh you know of data people were like what why you know and the first challenge is a significant amount of education in the market whereas you now turn up to a to a big housing event and you're going to find probably a third of the stuff that's there has got some sort of iot some sort of monitoring so you can see how the market dynamic has gone from what why through to interesting yeah maybe we'll give it a try for early adopter through to how do you differentiate from all the other people doing this you know you're like cool we've been here for 10 years yeah we're around for a while we get this so that's been very much an evolution journey that's the technology journey you know you know when you make one device if it sort of works that's cool if you make a hundred devices and one of them fails yeah you can roll with it make a thousand devices and 10 of them fail it's a bit painful you make 10 000 devices and 100 of them fail you've got a problem right so like that kind of natural evolution as we've gone up through the manufacturing quality standards as we know as we want to be you know market we want to be really ahead of the game that's been that's been really fun i think funding's been a really interesting journey that the scope for funding has changed very much in the in the uk you know we've gone from a place where there was no such thing as esg funding and it was all really kind of angels and visionaries and some very small kind of almost charitable funded impact funds you know that that and then we went to the place where we had this big esg boom and like suddenly everyone's an esg business it's really exciting we're all counting carbon we're all doing stuff everyone's pension money and i've got to say quite frankly as as quickly as that money turned up it's disappeared right because now it's all ai i know you're doing ai and and And slightly more worryingly, defense.

16:35Are you doing defense? Are you doing defense and AI? There's a sort of fickle nature to the market. And that's why, you know, we're just, to a point, we're sticking to what we do. We want to do it really well. We want to do it the best we possibly can. And so to sort of kind of weather that storm, you know, it's quite, you know, there was a period of time where the business was suddenly five times more valuable for nothing that we'd done because it was part of a different bubble. You know, you've got to ride through that and you've got to keep working out and going on that journey. And then finally, people are really interesting.

17:06You know, a business ultimately is a group of people. And as you go through that stages, those periods of growth, you need to hire different people for different things and different kind of challenges. And, you know, we've got some of those incredibly right. And there are some amazing people that have been up through the journey and evolved and grown with us and have been with us for a long, long, long time that I'm incredibly proud of. other people we might not have got it right. And that's been a learning for them. And I hope we'd sort of shake our hands and walked away in the right kind of journey on that.

17:37But sometimes we've hired people that like things more mature than we're able to offer them. And sometimes we've hired people that like things scrappier than perhaps where we are in the journey. And it's different. It's different for everyone. And you're doing your best to try and find out what people, where people want to sit and fit. But we haven't always got it right. And we're constantly keep, yeah, keep trying to learn on that. Yeah, definitely. So it's funny that you mentioned about kind of like evolving trends as well as emerging tech like AI. How has this impacted you? And have you ever kind of considered following kind of those emerging tech trends that are coming out?

18:14it's sort of funny sitting here as a 10-year business that's that's a long that's a long time you've been doing you've been doing it for a while there are some things if we look back we were visionaries and ahead of the curve other things we look back and we were just wrong so my instinct is is that the mission and that the the culture of the business are much more important than the trends right like trends will come and go particularly over the time period of a business you know there was very much there was very much a time when you know it was all about it was all about new build and you're like great everyone's to do new build it's got nothing but new build and you're like well actually you know new build is going to be less than five percent of all of our housing stock and then they're oh great everything what about retrofit and suddenly we're still sort of in a bit of a retrofit boom and we're going to do everything by retrofit everything's going to be retrofit and like okay cool but i think this too will pass right as we go on the next stage of the journey so i i i think our view is look you'll definitely see our marketing and our narrative evolve very rapidly to reflect the trends without a doubt i mean you you have to and if people are sitting down in boardrooms and making big decisions and and and their decision maker goes well how does this fit with retrofit right you need an answer on that but if you actually look at what we do it really consistently is the same direction the same vision that was had 10 years ago and we and we are executing that vision and we we're framing it differently as the trends evolve but we're really sticking to what we believe in fantastic so kind of the opposite of one of my last questions is what would you say have been the biggest highlights on the journey so far oh biggest what have been the the the biggest highlights i think when you start out in any business you you want to be synonymous with something right that's like you want to be the people that do that thing and being synonymous is it takes a long time it takes a lot of effort and and you spend a lot of time throwing noise out into the into the space and you know we wanted to be the go-to people we've done a lot of work on fuel poverty we've done a lot of work on condensation damper mold and i think we were very touched early this year when there were some changes in the mold legislation and we got an inbound call from from from the times who said well we want to talk to you because you're the guys on mold right and we were like who what you know like us and i don't you know i think you know for all the teams and all the work and everything we've done to shout and and make a difference to residents and to change the narrative you know for that inbound that yeah that was i've spent a lot of time the journalist since she's brilliant but for that inbound was was huge for us you see so that's the kind of macro level of synonymous you know i think ultimately what drives us and the team are are the things that we're doing every day you know we've got tens of thousands devices across hundreds of different housing associations and each of those is firing back data every 10 minutes and if you look at some of the stuff that that data is bringing back and the ability then to make actionable changes like those highlights are are are the little day other little daily wins you know from anything from you know whether we've spotted somebody that thinks probably lost their job and need some support funding their heating through Christmas from people that have never ever made a complaint or ever been a problem for their landlord are absolutely invisible but on the other hand have never heated their home right that's a problem and how do we engage with that right from helping people to better understand their heat pumps like as a business you know it's not about the destination I've learned that a number of times now it's about the journey you got to enjoy the journey you know and so I think that that kind of being synonymous with solving a problem whether that's in the times or whether that's you know in the day-to-day with residents that's what that's what we love yeah i think as a business knowing that you're recognized for it as well so you're becoming more recognized in an industry and quickly growing through kind of just people recognizing your name absolutely right and it's it's quite it's quite it's quite funny because you know you spend a lot of time making some noise and and we all expect to be anonymous and then you sort of turn up and people are like oh we know who you are and you're like do you why um that's brilliant like we're a mission that business and to be known for being on that mission and part of that team part of that group of people trying to try and deliver something different yeah we're really really proud of that but that just fires up to do more right that's that's that's that's that's absolutely the the the red rag to the bull of we really want to write great now we're really going let's do this yeah so as what you said a serial scale upper what lessons have you kind of learned on scaling up businesses um

23:21yeah lots of i can talk about there firstly the founders make or break businesses like a founder's ability to break a business is almost perfectly equal to their ability to make a business and I've worked with a number of different founders over the years. And if you look at successful founders, they're the ones that know the thing that they do really well, and then they get out of the way. If you look at the unsuccessful founders, then they're the ones that think they can lead the thing all the way through. And it consistently doesn't end well. And I think that society is fed a very inaccurate message of running a business.

23:58I think we see the Steve Jobs, We see the Elon Musks. We see the Dragon's Dens. We see this real character-led one person at the front making all the decisions, getting it right, battling through kind of personas. Look, I'm not going to lie. There are those businesses, right? But they are a very small proportion of the way the rest of the world works. And the rest of the world works about getting together everybody's skills and delivering a collective output. It's not about any one person. And so my big thing in terms of the scale-ups that I'm prepared to get involved with, for me, it's all about understanding the founder.

24:34Like, where's their mindset? Do they have the emotional awareness? Do they have the self-awareness of what their strengths and weaknesses are? And they're prepared to get out of the way for stuff they don't do very well? Then that's pretty critical. And then the next thing is really about people and picking the right people for the right stage of the journey. and the people that got you here really are very unlikely to be the people that get you there, you know, for all of our best efforts. And, you know, you get to a point where you're like, they've been with us for ages, they've been here so long.

25:07And you're like, yeah, they're miserable and they're not really doing a good job. And so if we love them, the right thing to do would be have a conversation that says, you're going to be happy somewhere smaller else, where are you going to scale it up and through, right? And you look at the big businesses and one of the metrics they keep talking about is how many people have left and formed and started their own business and it's something we're really passionate about with the switchy as well if you look at that the early group of people involved in switchy and the amazing things that they've gone on to do and the businesses that they've founded in the world that they've changed and they're just world changers that's what they do and and it was amazing to have them with us for a bit of the journey but it's not a it's not a forever right it's about picking the right team for the league you're in for the game you're playing right at that moment in time and yeah now that can be difficult and particularly when you're the founder and you've got emotional relationships but it's it's it's the big unlock and one of the big unlocks i typically do when joining a business yeah i think it's interesting i spoke to different founders before who before founding a company worked at a startup so i think startups kind of attract a certain type of person who knows they want to be in it and maybe they already have something brewing in the back of their minds but they're they're not quite ready and then yeah they're getting tooled up right you know like they're learning they're watching they're seeing how other people do it absolutely and what i'm looking for is like if you talk to any fund and someone turns up and they're a second time founder i mean they're literally five ten times as valuable as a first time founder because they've learned and they've been on their journey and they've screwed it up and they've worked it out and you know one of the things that i um you know when we look at why the The U.S.

26:44is so much better than Europe when it comes to building and scaling businesses. And I think we have to just accept that they are. And one of those things is their perception of failure, right? I think in the U.K., you know, it's that like, you know, you shall doth your cap and head in shame. And, you know, you shall never, you know, you shall never ever run a business. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. In the U.S., if you haven't failed three times, no one will lend you money. Three times. Not once. Three times, right? Because they're like, we haven't learned lessons yet. Now, you need to go on that journey.

27:16And that risk perception, I think, is very different in our culture. And there are some good parts of that, but I think there are some bad parts of that, particularly when it comes to higher risk environments like startup and scale-up. Yeah. Funny you mentioned that as well, because I talked to, when I've spoken to founders from the US, they often talk about, like, when you fail, we make sure to fail fast so they can move quickly. Whereas I think in the UK, it's very much about trying to avoid failing. At any cost. Yeah. But if you do fail, it's kind of about trying to dig yourself out of the hole rather than being like, okay, that didn't work.

27:50Let's move on. And people make wrong decisions. Absolutely. Yeah. Because wrong decisions kind of lead to the right ones eventually. No one's going to get it right all the time. No. No. And that's it. It's a high risk gamble. And that's not as the business evolves, you know, the narrative changes. and once you get to the sort of our kind of scale, you're looking at a different kind of risk profile. But definitely, when it comes to people and it comes to risk, surviving those early years are really about that ability to make those calculated choices and to back yourself. So as my last question, I want to ask, what do you think is next for Switchy and what goals do you have for the next year?

28:34Look, I think for Switchy, a lot of what we do is kind of not changing, right? Like we're 10 years into it, we're on a mission. That mission is not going to change. The world is definitely changing around us. You know, it's a challenging time for housing at the moment. There is less money than there's been before. Now that both presents a risk because there's less money than there's been before, but it also presents an opportunity, right? And I do believe the housing sector needs to change its operating model. It needs to be more dynamic and it needs to evolve and it needs to be proactive rather than reactive and not just focus on firefighting, but really question why there's a bloody fire at all.

29:12So it's going to be an interesting period in the journey. It's going to be different from any other period in the journey, but our mission will remain the same. Switch, exist, improve the quality of your lives for people living in rented homes. We've got the most mature, exciting tech stack that we've ever had to do that. We've got the most wonderful customers. We've got the most wonderful tenants and homes that we're delighted to be part of. And so the next year is kind of going to be a bit more of the same, but we've got a different set of wins, different set of waves that we're going to be navigating through that.

29:38Fundamentally, we're about growth and we're about impact. So on one hand, we want to get into as many homes as we possibly can to support as many people as we want to support. But from a tech perspective, we also want to keep adding more to the homes that we're already in. So we've got some really great features coming out that are helping customers be more proactive. We're looking at how we deploy AI across our tech stack, and particularly about how do we take the really quite complex data that we have and make it more accessible, more usable, more conversational. And I think some really exciting times in applying AI to help people not change the way that the smarts are done.

30:13They're pretty good already. I mean, that's a throne of the future, but really about making them accessible, you know, making them available so that anyone that walks into that home that's looking to help that tenant has the best possible information and gets the best possible outcome great so is there anything else that you wanted to add or plug at the end of the podcast apart from jordan's country crisp there's a range of flavors strawberry was always my favorite like a raspberry now and again but when it came to it particularly for a holiday cereal you're like i'm not normally allowed this right but we uh i get to eat it in a tent and so in response i get what i want so uh uh now that was that's probably my main my my main plug today I would once say, if people haven't been in an impact business, if people haven't worked in a business that is a good business that's doing good, I would really challenge you to try it.

31:06I've worked in a number of businesses that have been really good businesses, but I wouldn't necessarily have described them as doing good. And to operate in an impact space has been an absolute game changer for me. It's been a life changer. I couldn't do anything else now. Is it harder? I don't know. Is it more fulfilling? absolutely without a shadow of a doubt. It's a way more wonderful space to work in. So yeah, I wouldn't ever, couldn't possibly look back. Yeah, well, amazing. And on that night, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's been great learning more about Switchy and chatting to you and learning more about Jordan's Country, Chris.

31:40Thank you, Anna, for having me today. It was an absolute pleasure. Thank you. I look forward to seeing kind of what, how Switchy develops. Cheers. Perfect. Thank you. Bye. If you like this episode, Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and check out Startup Magazine's socials to stay up to date on the latest startups news.