What are the Results of U.S. talks in Russia to end the war in Ukraine?

0:00Today on State of the World, what are the results of U.S. talks in Russia to end the war in Ukraine. You're listening to State of the World from NPR. We bring you the day's most vital international stories up close where they're happening. It's Wednesday, December 3rd. I'm Greg Dixon. This week, President Trump sent his son-in-law Jared Kushner and Special Envoy Steve Witkoff to Moscow to meet with Russian President Vladimir Putin. They were there to bridge differences over a revised U.S. peace plan to end the war in Ukraine. In today's episode, we're going to hear a number of aspects of the state of that plan.

0:41We'll hear why the U.S. Secretary of State isn't attending a NATO meeting where the plan will be discussed, and from a former U.S. ambassador to NATO about what the Europeans' role in a peace plan should be. But first, to hear what happened in the meeting in Russia on Tuesday, we're going to hear from NPR Moscow correspondent Charles Maines. He spoke to Juana Summers. So Charles, there's been a whole lot of speculation about these talks. What can you tell us about the meeting? Yeah, so the Kremlin said these talks would go as long as necessary. And in fact, they went over five hours, well past midnight here in Moscow.

1:15Afterwards, a Kremlin advisor, Yuri Ushakov, called the talks constructive and substantive. But he made clear no deal, at least not yet. Ushakov said that while Russia agreed with some points of the U.S. plan, others it did not. And a lot of people will say that's not surprising, given that Russia wasn't signaling it was open to any grand compromise. In fact, just an hour before going into this meeting, President Putin met with reporters in the sidelines of a conference here where he talked a lot more about war than peace. What did Putin have to say? Well, you know, he touted Russia's recent battlefield success, claiming its forces had now control over several key cities that opened up likely further advances in East Ukraine, never mind that that advance has been much slower than anticipated and come at heavy losses.

2:01He called Ukraine's leadership delusional when it came to understand the real situation on the ground, and he offered an explanation as to why he preferred negotiating with the U.S. to Europe. Here's Putin. So here Putin says that Europe was offering obviously unacceptable proposals to Russia because unlike the U.S., it didn't want an end to this war, and accused the Europeans of doing everything to undermine U.S. peace efforts. In fact, Putin even went further. He suggested Europe wanted war with Russia and vowed that Russia was ready to respond today, if necessary. Charles, what do you make of that?

2:36Well, you know, it does seem an attempt to essentially spin the U.S. into thinking that changes to this American peace plan, which after all was initially criticized as tilted heavily in Russia's favor, but since amended to reflect Ukrainian and European interests, that these are non-starters. You know, to make them believe that concessions to Ukraine, that concessions Ukraine doesn't accept now will simply be taken by force later by Russia. But also, Putin is clearly now trying to drive a wedge between Europe and the U.S., knowing full well there are differences over how they approach the Ukraine issue and much else when it comes to security in Europe.

3:11What might a deal look like? And as you know, what are the key sticking points here? Well, you know, the U.S. has framed their plan around the idea of a mix of peace and prosperity, floating this idea that business investments can play a role in helping heal resentments. But those resentments are many, of course. You know, among them, the issue of territory. Russia wants recognition of lands. It's annexed from Ukraine against international law. Moreover, it wants land it claims is Russian but doesn't actually control, which you can understand is even more controversial. Another big sticking point, security guarantees.

3:42You know, Kiev wants a robust and enforceable promise from the West before it even begins to talk about ceding land to Moscow, just to be sure that nothing like this Russian invasion ever happens again. You know, ideally, in Ukraine's view, that would be NATO membership. But Russia rules that out or, for that matter, any arrangement that smacks of an Article V-like protection for Ukraine. So this is a complex issue. And I frankly don't envy those trying to untie the knot. NPR's Charles Maynes, thank you. Thank you. The war in Ukraine is at the top of the agenda for a meeting of NATO foreign ministers in Brussels this week.

4:14But U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio is not attending the meeting. It's the first time the U.S. is not represented at that level in more than 20 years. As Terry Schultz tells us, that's raising some concerns about how Ukraine peace efforts are unfolding. No voice, no veto power. European diplomats are watching from the sidelines while the U.S. negotiates what happens at the front line. There's this thinking in the administration about too many cooks in the kitchen, and so they wanted to keep the European cooks out. Jim Townsend is a former Pentagon official with decades working on European and NATO policy.

4:49He's currently holding consultations in Europe with the Atlantic Council and International Affairs Think Tank. It's been very painful to watch, knowing the European issues, knowing what's at stake for them, and knowing that they can be a part of the solution too. Still, NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte had nothing but compliments for the process. It was only the American president who was able to break that dialogue in the end, and he did. And therefore, these talks are now underway. We do not yet know whether they will be successful. We will try everything we can do to be as positively involved as possible.

5:23Europeans have had some success, for example, in helping to rewrite the original 28-point peace plan presented by Washington into one less overwhelmingly favorable to Moscow. The new draft did not rule out eventual NATO and European Union membership for Kiev, nor some kind of reassurance force provided by European militaries in Ukraine. But no one knows for sure what U.S. Envoy Steve Witkoff presented to the Russians. With the Trump administration continually reminding Europe it will have the primary responsibility in supporting Ukraine, Swedish Defense Minister Paul Jonsson urges Washington to stay in close contact.

6:00Nothing about the Europeans without the Europeans. And we, of course, are going to have a central role in the rebuilding of Ukraine as well. So the more we are involved, the better of a peace agreement we can achieve. But Secretary of State Marco Rubio is skipping Wednesday's NATO ministerial meeting. It's the first time in decades a U.S. Secretary of State won't attend the regular meeting, which takes place as Russian President Vladimir Putin blames Europe for preventing progress in the negotiations. For NPR News, I'm Terri Schultz in Brussels. To understand the prospects for a potential peace deal between Russia and Ukraine and Europe's role, we'll hear now from Julianne Smith.

6:40She served as the U.S. ambassador to NATO during the Biden administration. She spoke to Steve Inskeep. Does it matter that Marco Rubio doesn't show up in a NATO meeting? I think it does matter that the U.S. Secretary of State is not present. It is common for the NATO alliance to accommodate often the schedule of the U.S. Secretary of State to ensure that he or she can be in attendance. You can send your deputy. It is certainly common. We've seen that with other countries. But to not have the U.S. at the table at this critical moment when the key topic of conversation is Ukraine is not going to be a welcome sign among our European allies.

7:24Does it really mean the Europeans have been sidelined, even though they did get to change the peace proposal? Well, look, Ukraine has always been a NATO project. Even before the war started, almost four years ago, the alliance was focused on preventing the war from starting. when it happened. Every NATO meeting was focused on Ukraine. They are obviously concerned that they cannot get a direct readout from the United States on what happened in Moscow. The hope is that the Deputy Secretary of State who will be there, Christopher Landau, will provide a readout. But what was common during the Biden administration was when we sent an official to Moscow, as we did in the months leading up to the start of the war, that official would then make a stop in Brussels on the way home to provide all of the information that the allies were seeking on what transpired in that engagement.

8:27So I suspect there are some disappointed European allies on the other side of the Atlantic today. Judging by the public statements that we do have, how do you read the meeting in Moscow? I did not find it encouraging. It feels like Groundhog Day. We have seen time and time again the Russians rejecting the ceasefire and the terms of some sort of negotiated settlement. We saw the Russians do this in the spring of this year. They had a 50-day deadline that came and went in July. And now once again in December, we are seeing a very cool reception by the Russians to this proposed peace plan. So it feels to me like we are not able to move the needle right now.

9:16And the middle ground that we so desperately need between Ukraine and Russia seems as far away as ever. Can you imagine any leverage the United States could use to push the Russians toward a settlement. Yes, I do believe that the United States could apply more pressure on Moscow to persuade President Putin to be far more open to negotiations and flexible in his negotiating position. I believe that the United States made a good start. The Trump administration made a good start by placing sanctions quite recently on Rosneft and luke oil. I think more actions like that, with perhaps the delivery of tomahawks to Ukraine, would capture Putin's attention and put him in a different mindset for these future negotiations.

10:10But right now, there is not an indication that the Trump administration is prepared or willing to apply that kind of pressure. There have been some news reports about carrots offered. We can do business together if only you resolve this war. Does that make sense? I think it makes sense from a Russian perspective. No doubt they are very interested in opening up their economic relationship with the entire world, particularly the United States. They've been very isolated on the world stage since the war started. But I think it's going to take more than incentives. I do believe the United States has the power to apply pressure and should apply that now that we've seen this very lukewarm response on the part of the Russians.

10:55Julianne Smith was the U.S. ambassador to NATO during the Biden administration. Ambassador, thanks so much. Thank you.

11:11That's the State of the World from NPR. If you're like me, your inbox is full of emails this week about Giving Tuesday. So here's our quick pitch. It's the first time in 50 years that NPR is operating without federal funding. It's a big challenge, and you can help. I know hearing voices and stories from around the world is important to you. And if you stepped up to support NPR this year, thank you. But if you haven't supported us yet, please do it now by signing up for NPR+. It's a simple recurring donation that gets you perks to NPR's podcasts. you can join us at plus.npr.org. Thank you for supporting the work we do, and thanks for listening.