#272: Building Wealth in Ireland (Saving, Investing, Auto-Enrolment)

0:00Inflation is the biggest risk to money. And yes, we still have a very low proportion of people in Ireland who will invest monies in EFTs or in, you know, pooled funds or whatever it is, because what they'll say is, oh, well, I, you know, how much can I lose? How much can I, this obsession with how much can I lose? You know, but it's like, well, you're already losing money with the money sitting there.

0:32Hi folks and welcome to another episode of Stock Club. We are joined by a very special guest today, Emma Farrelly. Emma is the founder of Future Financial Planning. She's got over 23 years of industry experience, a qualified financial advisor, a retirement planning advisor, a pension trustee practitioner, and a sustainable investment advisor. Coming on the show today, she's here to discuss all things personal finance, financial retirement planning, as well as the irish investing landscape emma welcome to stock club thank you very much it's great to be here yeah privileged to be here thanks thanks so much no bother you got a bit of an alphabet soup coming after your name there qfa rpa ptp sia i often wonder you know um who who actually pays attention to all those letters because i don't think any of my clients do it's just the industry we're obsessed with putting letters after our names it's probably a bit of an ego thing but it actually matters to nobody probably for ourselves i know i'm i'm i'm a part of it myself with my qfa so i've seen i've seen other sausages made unfortunately but uh but let's jump in so and i think it's funny we always talk about like retirement planning and investments and everything else and if you go into a financial planner the first thing they'll tell you about is your own personal financing and budgeting and all the rest so if you were to have say a personal finance checklist what are the most important things people can do when it comes to when it comes to building on their financial future okay so i suppose if somebody comes in or someone is looking to have a meeting with me what i like you know ideally you know if someone can if someone is young enough so maybe late 20s early 30s trying to get a handle on on their finances there's there's a couple of things that i would say well look these are the these are the things that really you should be doing um you know there's a little bit of preaching involved in this but i mean you know the first thing would be you know know know know your money know where it's going so have a budget um you know it can be a very simple excel spreadsheet and just put in your you know your incomings, your outgoings, but really look at what you have both coming in and also what you've got paying out.

2:55You've got, so like I'd always say as well, like always try and build an emergency fund so you have something there. Now when I say emergency fund, probably kind of maybe three, four months wages or salary, the equivalent of that in a current account somewhere that if you need access to cash, you know, for whatever your car breaks down, you know, like a practical reason or whatever, that you've got something there. Then, I suppose, after that, then you're looking at, you know, try and avoid kind of high interest loans and credit, I suppose, for want of a better word. You have a lot of stuff going around at the moment, you know, where you can buy a lot, like, especially for younger people, and I'm seeing it more and more in places where you can buy on credit you can buy so much stuff now on credit and so between that and credit cards like try and as much as possible try and not get into that space and if you do get into a good habit of of paying it off um you know you you do want to i suppose you know as you go along you do want to build some type of credit but you want to do it um or like what should i say a credit, like history, you know, from the US.

4:19Exactly. So you got to do something and look, we can't go through life without borrowing, like, you know, I certainly haven't. So, but it's just to do it and try and not let it get out of control. And the other thing is really is like, you know, building good habits. So, you know, when you get into your first job, you know, to have a look and say, OK, well, look, how do I work with this money? You know, I always say to people, ideally, you should have three types of plans in place. A short term plan, a medium term and a long term plan from a savings perspective. So your short term is like your emergency fund that we spoke about.

5:02your medium term then is you know for things that may come in the future so if you know if you want to if you're looking to say for a deposit or you know you've got kids and you you know you want to save for education that sort of stuff and then your longer term is is your pension right or your retirement plan should I say um and like also it's really it's really I think a lot of it is about one having a bit of a buffer right two not being too um you know bill we hear all the time this you know build wealth build wealth and it all sounds great right another very important part of building wealth and stuff like that is also protecting it so just you know being careful so not overexposing yourself as well so you know if you know someone wants to build a retirement plan or medium-term savings file, whatever the case may be, through all of that you've got to have your income.

6:01So your income is your biggest, I suppose, what's the word I could use? I mean, your income is your biggest asset without a shadow of a doubt. So there is an element around, look, you know, putting certain things in place that if that income falls one day or something happens, You know, could be illness, could be redundancy, could be death. You know, well, if it's death, I suppose it's not your problem necessarily, but the others around you. So an element of making sure that that is protected as well throughout the journey. So, you know, you start off and you build the wealth, but also throughout that lifespan, or not even the wealth, but you put a plan in place.

6:45You protect that plan as you go along. okay um and and i suppose like you know another big one i would say to people as well very important have a will in place it's like estate planning um like a lot of these very morbid boring things are some of the most important things that you can do um you know for example putting a will in place if you've you know even you know regardless of whether you're single whether you're married or kids obviously in certain circumstances it's more important um but because the the problems that can occur if you don't have a will in place um and also estate planning again estate planning is more i suppose it becomes more important and maybe the more wealth people generate whatever over the years but at the same time it is an important so it it kind of starts from the basic but builds up so i mean if i if someone comes in me and we're having a meeting we don't sit down and go through all of this because that would just be you know chaotic we start so you know you like i could have someone coming in to me who's in their 20s i could have someone coming in to me who's in their 50s so they're very different points of their financial journey um and their their needs and their wants would be very different but in a lot of cases that I will have the same kind of checklist for them.

8:12Have you got A, B, C, D? Have you got all of these things? And if they haven't, then we look at putting something in place or get them thinking around getting that into place. Okay, that's good stuff. You mentioned two different investing journeys, we'll say. And I guess, say if for someone now listening to this who maybe has just come out of college, they're in their first graduate job, first kind of proper salary job, what advice would you give them in terms of thinking about, I say the medium term plans and the long term plans? You mentioned that. So the short term, we've kind of covered, but say in terms of their investments, putting their money to work.

8:54So, well, there's two parts to that, right? So someone goes in and starts a job. The first thing I would recommend and I do this all the time is I will say to them, A, if there's a pension scheme in that employment, get into it straight away. If there isn't one, get one set up for yourself. Legislation now, which has been around for over 20 years, means that all companies in Ireland have had to, since 2003, offer availability of some type of pension vehicle to their staff. They don't have to pay into it but they have to offer the facility, have it taken through payroll. So that is open and should be open to everybody who starts in a job, maybe 20s or whatever age it is.

9:47So immediately you're getting on a good saving path, you're getting into a good saving habit and you're also getting into good tax benefits and the ability to get your tax relief and on the contributions and also your tax relief on your growth there. The other thing I would say to them is, again, similar is set up some type of ongoing savings plan. So, you know, go through your budget, go through your incomings and outgoings and all the rest and look and say, OK, well, look, how much can I afford to put away? And get into that habit of putting money aside every month. And importantly, putting it away at the start of the month when the paycheck comes in instead of at the end when it's the money that's left.

10:37Yes. And have it as a standing order, as a direct debit. Don't say, oh, I'll throw 50 quid into the credit union. Like actually put yourself under pressure and make, you know, do it and say, okay, this is what I'm going to do. It's going to go in. And that can be a trading account. It can be the credit union. it can be whatever that individual wants um what i'm starting to find is it's very interesting you know a lot of the younger people i've i've four kids myself and my youngest are 17 year old boys and um they're one of them the other day was saying to me um i'm just studying day trading now so i'm like he just he's like how can i make money and how can i make it fast without really having to work and i was like i just said to him that doesn't exist you're actually wasting your time You know, it's it's you've got to you've got to do stuff on a kind of a longer term thing.

11:32It's if you want to do that, you might as well go to the betting shop and just go and gamble your money. So but yeah, they're the two things I would say. It's really about making the commitment to yourself and getting into a habit. Get the direct debt set up, whatever the case may be, and just have the money going out. it's great if people can have you know for the likes of pension stuff if it go out prior to it getting paid into your bank account and if it's done at source it is so much easier because you know at the end of the day then you get your bottom line and that's what you live off um but yeah it's it's it's all about habit making yeah and then say in a similar position but someone is in their late 30s early 40s but they finally got a handle on their finances and they want to start and obviously they're starting from a much different position.

12:22Would you give them similar advice or is there anything specific for that cohort? In a situation like that, I would normally look at, I would always recommend for especially someone that's kind of, let's say they're in their house and they've got their, they don't necessarily need money or a large amount of money within a kind of five to ten year period or even kind of one to ten year period. make sure that they maxed out what they can do on pension first okay from a tax perspective um you know that absolutely makes makes makes sense and also depending on what they have done previously after that then it would be when i meet people like that at that kind of age it tends to be you know looking at that they might have children putting money away for education um and maybe being able to give it a bit of a dig out if they need money.

13:20Because if they're, what I have found is if people are saving for themselves for something, kind of down the road as such, that tends to fall into the pension piece, because, you know, they can potentially access benefits and stuff from 60. So that tends to be kind of cornered off. But it might be that, you know, when they're 50 or, you know, early 50s, that they want to put their kids through college or someone's getting married or, you know what I mean, there's a big life event there that they'd like to have some money to put aside. Or I speak to people and they're like, I'd like to buy a place abroad or I'd like, you know, I'd like to, I'd like to do something nice with my money because I've worked so hard for it.

14:07But a big one is that the education is a really big one because you know in certainly in Ireland it is it is expensive and it is only getting more expensive it looks like you know the the kind of grant that we're given for college the reduction of a thousand euros is going back up and from from September so now they haven't or you know they haven't they haven't clarified that but that looks like the way it's going so all of a sudden it's it's all becoming more expensive you know, people having to put their kids up and all that sort of stuff. And that's what I see because, you know, if you want to have a comfortable life, you've got to, you have to put a plan in place.

14:54It just doesn't happen if you don't, you know, it doesn't happen by magic unless you're really lucky or you win the lotto or something like that happens, which would be great as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk in more broader strokes here about Ireland as a whole, because we've done the studies. We're an amazing country of savers, but an awful lot of that money is sitting in low-yield savings accounts or current accounts. So why is there such an aversion to investing in this country? Why do Irish people fear risk, at least financially? Yeah, I don't know if it's that they fear risk. and what I have seen over the years is um they do Irish people fear risk but they see it very sometimes can see it very differently to how it actually is so if you go back you know um 20 15 20 years right everyone was everyone wants to buy property everyone thought like this is you know bricks and mortar this is what we wanted you know like it can't fail you know I can touch I can feel my my investment and and this is what i want okay um and it was that or the money was sitting in the bank okay and and at that time you're probably getting better interest rates as well but we went through a period where it was almost like oh you know everything that people but you know with regards to property that you touch will turn to gold and everybody can be millionaires and when I used to have conversations with people during these periods of time it was very interesting because they wouldn't invest in an equity-based fund but they'd buy a property and you'd spend your time trying to explain to them like you do understand that a property is a liquid a property is like one asset class in one geographical area like the risk that you're taking is so large but they just didn't see it because they said well no it's bricks and mortar and you know and it'll be mine and I can see it and I can touch it and there's still an element of that to this day but what has happened now is everybody is leaving money sitting in the bank I want to be able to see my money I want to be able to go online and see that I have got x y and z in the bank and no one's going to take it from me it's not going to fall in value and that is the actual mentality but in reality it's falling in value all the time because it's been eroded by inflation and i don't know whether it's that that's that that sentiment isn't pushed out enough or whether people don't understand it is because like inflation is the biggest risk to money and yes you still we still have a very low proportion of people in ireland who will invest monies in EFTs or in pool funds or whatever it is, because what they'll say is, oh, well, how much can I lose?

18:02How much can I lose? This obsession with how much can I lose? But it's like, well, you're already losing money with the money sitting there. So Ireland is a funny place. Also, you have to remember, we're a very young, rich country. A hundred percent. We've talked about this before. And if I go back. Go back to my parents' generation and the thought of equities is nuts. It's just like my own father, he would have invested and I would have thought of him as a very astute businessman for his time. But at that time, anyone who was in shares, they were really in bank shares. and they were you know there was and again safest houses nothing can go wrong I think certainly my my generation are the ones who felt you know what can go wrong there but again I think in a period of let's say probably 60 years Ireland has gone through this huge transformation and so you see a lot of people in their 70s and 80s who hold a huge amount of money and wealth.

19:18And then you find a lot of people in their 40s and 50s really struggling. And I think it's a fear thing. It's very interesting. It's like the younger people in their 40s and 50s are looking at the older people and say, well, look, how do they make their money? They made their money with their properties and whatever it is. So why can't we do that yeah and it's funny as well that that specific generation would have gone through the banks but also the aircom shares as well which were both government-backed kind of you know con jobs nearly in a certain sense so they've been burned quite heavily twice in what was literally being advertised to them by their own government as kind of safe as houses So there has to be a distrust to the system as a whole there.

20:12Yeah. And also, most of them, not all of them, but a lot of them would have come from quite poor backgrounds. There wouldn't have been wealth there. I think we've only really started to see that in the kind of probably from the 90s onwards, and that is not that long ago. So, you know, if you look at children now and, you know, even kids in their 20s and, you know, they see an extremely different Ireland to what even I would have seen when I was growing up in the 90s. you know, and I would hope, and I really would, that that view around risk and return and all that, it's starting to change, you know, that, you know, as a country, we're starting to see, look, we do have to do something to try and make the money we have work harder.

21:07Now, look, you know, it doesn't help with the exit tax and the deemed disposal and all that sort of stuff, but that hopefully is going to, you know, will somewhat wash yourself out over the coming years. But that definitely doesn't help either. No, and it's funny. It's kind of a bogey term around here in this podcast. We have to mention it about once a month. But there are incredibly prohibitive laws to investing, especially passive investing in Ireland. So we have deemed disposal law. If you're listening to this podcast and you don't know what it is, I'm very surprised. but just to clarify, essentially every eight years, if you own a foreign-based ETF, the government will tax you as if you have sold it, whether you have or not.

21:49So very prohibitive in terms of long-term investing and that passive way that so many people are using to build proper generational wealth in other countries. And then on top of that, the exit tax is even greater than an individual stock so it's 41 percent and 30 instead of 33 percent now i'm glad you brought it up because there does seem to be a tide turning in terms of regulation here and at least what the government is saying so pascal donahue has said some positive comments uh chambers before him there's a study done they're trying to make irish people especially the retail investing side of things a lot more simpler for people so what what are your budget 2026 is kind of going to be the first um first evidence of what would they see putting in action do you do you foresee people being able to invest in foreign-based etfs quite comfortably in the years ahead or do you think it's going to be it's going to be a while before it really comes in my my gut would say that i feel it is going to be you know i i would love to say that yeah it's going to happen in the next year so the fear is i think with what's going on with auto enrollment being brought in i fear that they will push this down the line a little bit because they're so under pressure to get the auto enrollment.

23:07It has been lobbied very heavily by the industry and I genuinely think it would make a big difference to the people's ability to invest and their attitude towards investing. you know there are there's a lot of noise around just being brought in in 2026 but it's like anything I until it's here you you can't believe that it's going to happen and that that has happened for for years and you know many different areas that that we've looked we've looked at and you know changes legislation that we've looked for um do they have do they have the appetite to just go through with the legislation.

23:57Yeah, it's a very interesting one. I have the government and finance and the real economics with regards to people's wealth and how they can grow it and what they can do with it. personally I don't know whether the government would have a huge appetite for that yeah um I don't know why I have never I have never seen that appetite so maybe that's why but there's perception issues I suppose um and it's counterintuitive completely because some of it is feeding into the property crisis where you have property as the only kind of investment outlet for a lot of people uh and then on top of that in terms of general you know wealth creation you're giving people this outlet there's so many famous stories i think it's in morgan hausel's uh psychology of money um which is a brilliant book but he mentions is it the janitor that is working in the university who donated uh eight million dollars that he just built up i I think he found five or six stocks and through a completely normal salary and a completely like frugal way of living became a multi multi millionaire with no nothing exceptional done.

25:17I just feel that thing that that isn't available in Ireland, at least in terms of financial literacy, in terms of how we tax people's investments, in terms of a culture here. and and and you see that like as in i always bring this up but the the tax allowance on investments is 1270 euro and that's the exchange rate from a thousand punch back before the euro that's that's how long that's been there and just hasn't been updated to match anything else that the uh that the uh that the country is doing in terms of this so yeah look there there's a lot of talk and I think I'm with you in the terms of I believe it when I see it but I really really do hope they they bring Ireland into the 21st century when it comes to this because in terms of access to what we have you know trading apps and all the rest like as in it's never been easier to invest and yet we're still dealing with these kind of archaic tax laws which were brought in for poor reasons anyways brought in for brought in for reasons that didn't really understand the nature of the investments you know exactly yeah and that's that's the problem i think there's a lack of understanding and that's probably one of the biggest you know one of the one of one of the biggest issues um and like yes they'll say like oh well you know you don't want to complicate things and you don't like it's like anything you know things can be as complex or as simple as you want them to be.

26:49So it's not a case of, oh, well, if this is lifted, then everyone's going to start trading Bitcoin, crypto. That's not the case. People will still make informed decisions, but they'll also be offered options that are out there. I mean, the thing about it is, if you look at the likes of different funds out there and equities and stuff like that, like we have huge amount of historical data, which shows how well they perform and how, you know, like majority of pension funds in Ireland are built on equity funds, you know, and, you know, you see how the growth rates they get, all that sort of stuff.

27:36And so there's no reason why it's almost like, oh, we can do it for this, but we can't do it for this. And so, well why not if you you know at the end of the day it's the same process it's the same thing you're doing um but i don't know it's it's it's a it is it's a bit of a mystery to be honest um and i unfortunately i'm of the belief that kind of i will i believe when i see it yeah hi folks we are just three weeks away from investicon on the 21st of august in the irish stock exchange here in Dublin. It is going to be an amazing day. We're going to have some amazing speakers and we've specifically requested each speaker bring three investing insights, which you as a guest can act on.

28:21So I have to say, I'm really, really excited to hear all of the speakers, whether it be from the world of whiskey, from the world of stock investing, from the world of financial management. Throughout the day, you're going to get an amazing, amazing insight into what these people how they view the market, the stocks they're looking at, what investments they're looking at. So it's going to be an amazing day, 21st of August. There are still a few tickets left. You can act now. And just as a little cherry on top, we've reminded we're still running the Horizon office. So if you sign up to Horizon, you will get a free Investicon ticket.

28:56So write in, find us on Investicon. The link will be in the bio. And yeah, it's going to be a great day. 21st of August in Dublin here in the Irish Stock Exchange. I think the fact that the vast majority of TDs are landlords as well might be a small reason. But let's move on before we turn this into a political podcast. You talked about auto enrollment there. So that's coming in at the start of 2026. Could you expand on that for many people who might have heard about it, but don't really fully grasp what the meaning of it is? Yeah. So basically, auto enrollment will come into legislation from 1st of January 2026.

29:34What it's going to do is it is going to it's probably going to bring around 800 ,000 into the in or I suppose allow up to 800 ,000 people access to some form of pension scheme okay based on being under the age of 60 over the age of 23 and earning over 20 ,000 a year Okay, so they're your criteria that it kind of starts off with. Now, you have an opt-in option if you want to go into it and you're over 60 or you're under the age of 23 or you're earning less than 20 ,000. But essentially, if you're within that bracket and you don't have a payment into a pension provider going through your payroll, you will be pulled into what's called this auto-enrollment.

30:23Okay, so I'll tell you a very kind of basic structure on how the whole thing works.

30:34It's starting at 1.5 % contribution from the employee and the employer must match that 1.5%. Okay, and that's going to rise to 6 % over the next 10 years. so by 20 2036 that one and a half percent will become six percent six percent from employer and six percent from the employee and then you have the the what the government do is they make what's called a top-up interest okay i think they were essentially trying to make it sound a little like i don't know if you remember the ssias back in the early 2000s where if you if you saved the government gave you a top of 25 % and you know it was fantastic they were trying to encourage everybody to save so this is similar but not similar when it comes to the pension landscape so you basically what's going to happen is if you so for example if someone is in a personal pension and not paying in through their salary they're also going to be pulled in under this measure and you're going to have the the top up that the government make is going to be so at the moment we have a 20 tax relief and a 40 tax relief okay depending so once you're if you earn over 44 000 as a single person you go up onto the 40 um tax bracket income tax and that's the tax relief you will you will receive on pension payments if you're contribute if you're um earning over that amount.

32:11So the government contribution is going to be what they said by 30%. Okay, so it's going to be in between. So what it means is there'll be a benefit realistically for someone who is on the 20 % tax bracket, because they will now instead of getting 20 % relief, get 30%. But someone that is on a higher earner will be disadvantaged, okay, because they now will get less tax relief, which obviously will be a problem. It'll work the same way in the sense that your pension fund will grow tax free but it will be much more restrictive so um it is it's going to be run by the department of social protection the seemingly this is the idea is that social but department social protection and revenue will work together um but it will be the scheme will be run through the department of social protection and you will have no access to early benefits so 65 will be the earliest you'll be able to access any of your benefits.

33:11You won't be able to, you'll only be able to put in what is allowed. So either the one and a half percent or that will go up over six years or sorry, over 10 years. You can't put in what's called additional voluntary contributions. So the individual can't put in any extra money. And so, you know, that obviously is going to be an issue. and then from an investment point of view there's really not going to be any choice around you know investing in or if there is it'll be extremely limited um it looks like there'll be one investment manager and it probably will be irish life and we don't know for sure yet but they are the biggest in the in the country so that's probably who the government will use um and then you also are going to have options to opt out and that's after six months but then after two years you're going to be automatically opted back in and auto enrolled back in so it's going to be quite complex um and for it will work i think very well for for a certain criteria of people and for people who wouldn't, let's say, not necessarily really have any access to pension.

34:28And it'll bring them in and give them an opportunity. That's what it seems to me. It's going after a very specific cohort and serving them specifically. And for maybe a lot of listeners who are already contributing to a pension, they can kind of skip this five-minute part. But there's a very important aspect of bringing people in, almost whether they like it or not, into some form of long-term planning. Yeah, and at the moment, so we look to the, as we normally do, it's look to the UK, they did it a number of years ago. It hasn't, they're now, I think, looking at, it's in the process of kind of changing it because it hasn't, it really hasn't worked.

35:14And there's very mixed feelings here. I mean, from, I know from my own perspective, and from my own clients, you know, my own pension clients like one of the really important pieces around building a pot of money and a fund um is around the advice and the you know the funds and you know all of that type of thing it the advice piece is really important and that is going to be totally stripped out of it so there will be no advice um and it will literally be your money goes in there will be some type of portal there go on and have a look. But it's going to be very basic to start off with anyway, it will be very basic.

35:56Maybe it will progress as the years go on. But as a start, I think the conversation I'm having with a lot of companies and a lot of my own clients is, look, you know, if you've got a scheme set up already, open it up and just let everybody into it. You can change the rules slightly and you know bring in people at a lower level but it is from if our from a company's perspective giving somebody an auto enrollment um access to a pension is is is is quite quite quite poor and quite very low level so it's not really a benefit okay okay but it is good to cover and and to know to get more information on this because this is the thing as well i reading about this.

36:46A Bank of Ireland survey revealed that 49 % of participants in Ireland rated their investment knowledge as poor. Only 28 % of people rated it positively. And this isn't really from a lack of information available. I think there's so much now online. The access to experts across the world when it comes to investing is there. And I'm just looking at, is this a cultural thing? Is it the fact that there aren't enough Irish people specifically talking about it. So I'd love from your perspective, where would you send people if they want to start learning about investing? This can range from anything from the most basic ABCs to content you enjoy yourself, books, podcasts, videos, whichever, just a place where, because I'm kind of shocked at how financially illiterate we are as a country.

37:38And I just think there needs to be a bit more emphasis on self-teaching as well yeah um absolutely i mean i suppose one of the like the the psychology of money that book by morton hazel that's a brilliant book like absolutely like i have i have kind of sent that recommendation to to many different people of all different ages and i'm like just listen to this it's so it's just it is it is a great book um the i suppose the other thing is and this is this is this is something that i would feel quite passionately about and i i spoke to to um a colleague of mine in the industry yesterday as well and we were talking about it like financial literacy like it needs to start much earlier than it does so it's in ireland you have to be a self-starter so you have to make the first move you have to decide you know we should be teaching this in in schools i mean you know they do economics they do business studies all that sort of stuff but that covers everything at an extremely high kind of macro level whereas what we're what we really what we should be learning is how do we what do we do with money how do we manage our money how do we look after it and if you start to learn something from a younger age you you know you start to get a more of an interest in it and then that kind of snowballs.

39:01I mean, look, the likes of YouTube is there's some brilliant stuff on YouTube, you know, like you can go on to some of the life companies' websites and there's, you know, a lot of some good bits and pieces there. Like a lot of it is very similar.

39:19There's a bit of a, I think because of the 07, 08, the financial crash, along with the property crash. There is a real, there is definitely still a fear in this country about investing. Yeah. And I think that's one of the things that we've overcome. Yeah. There's definitely this mistrust. Like, the best thing you can do for yourself is to, you know, look up an advisor online, speak to somebody, like have a conversation with somebody, like just having a conversation or looking for information or whatever the case may be, you know, So you're not going to be pushed into something. What you're going to do is educate yourself.