The S Word: 7 Deadly Sins (of Sales!)

0:00Welcome to Strategy and Tragedy. I'm your host, Stephanie Melodia, and what you're about to listen to is actually not an episode of Strategy and Tragedy. It is in fact an episode from my new show that I'm so excited to release with my co-host, Tash Rebuck, called The S Word. It's the dirty word in business and yet the lifeblood to any business. It is sales. Tash herself is a sales specialist, formerly stand-up comedian, so hilarious. and that's our goal with this show is to both educate as well as entertain so if you're an entrepreneur if you're a sales director chief revenue officer honestly I think if you're in business then you're in sales this is the show for you if you enjoy it you know what to do we would love for you to hit that follow subscribe button I'm not going to be posting all the episodes on here I'm just posting a few to give you guys a bit of a flavor so do go and seek out the show itself it's called the s word the artwork is a lilac purple color and it's got both mine and Tash's face is on it, so hopefully not too hard to find.

0:57Anyway, really hope that you subscribe on that new show. In the meantime, hope you enjoy what you're about to hear. Welcome to The S Word, the podcast where myself, Tash, and my co-host, Steph, will be chatting about the dirtiest word in business. Sales. Oh, that was a bit spooky. It's a spooky season. Yeah, it is indeed. But yeah, play us. At the time of recording. Hands down, one of the things that people hate the most in this world. Hate the most, but so vital is the lifeblood to any business. It's literally the difference between a hobby and a business. Why is everyone so allergic to sales?

1:33I would say, in fairness, there's not a single person in the world that hasn't had to deal with like a truly diabolical salesperson. And I think most of us deal with them almost every single day. Sometimes they're trying to sell to us. Sometimes they are in our own teams. and I think that there is just so much that sales people do wrong. I mean, you must have had some absolute rubbish experience. So many and we are going to get straight into that. So this episode is the seven deadly sins of sales. This is a fantastic one to dive into because I have been obsessed for a while with we don't even have sales in job titles anymore.

2:15It's such a dirty word, right? Like even like SDRs is the extent of it. And even then it's just the S, the S word. But literally you've got like business development, commercial, like cheap revenue, partnership, like all this. It's like anything but sales. Call a spade a spade. And I agree. I totally agree. The reason for that is because of diabolical salespeople in the past to use your word. So this is why we're going to get into it. We are going to talk about the seven deadly sins to help you avoid what nobody wants. It doesn't work. It's ineffective. perspective you're a pest but also you're not a pest you can you are a pest and we've all been the pest i've been the pest i definitely have been the best but and you know it's a laugh as well because whether or not we're in sales i mean i do think if you're in business you're in sales full stop whether or not you you want to admit it but whether or not you are in sales you do get sold to we all get sold to we're talking before about spam emails that we get in our email inboxes or our LinkedIn.

3:19So this is definitely a fun episode that all of you are going to relate to. We hope that you find it educational and entertaining in equal measure. I actually don't. I hope you find this more entertaining than educational. So let's dive in. What is our number one deadly sin? So I would say they're in no particular order because depending on what mood you're in, a particular kind of like a bad sales approach can either I can be like oh haha how funny a bad message and sometimes it will like spin me out into uncontrollable rage so I think no particular order but it's bad outreach just doing it in a truly rubbish way.

4:04So how are you defining bad outreach? Overly automated, copy paste to everyone. If you are putting in like, oh, I'm making this super personalised. I've got their first name and the company name and their job title. That is not personalisation. Hi, Sandra. Notice you're the procurement manager at Cisco systems exactly everyone can do it and it's just so boring lazy yeah it is lazy as well yeah what's interesting so look i am going to be vulnerable and i'm going to put my hands up i definitely have lots of active campaigns right now and have had in the past that is exactly that where okay okay where it is hi first name this that and the other we need to also with every sin we do need to counteract and provide some suggestions and solutions because be helpful sorry i am a sales consultant i should probably be more keen to give helpful advice yeah not just bitching about bad sales gotcha because there's an argument that it's a numbers game there is all this kind of volume that we do need to hit overcoming that i am i'd obviously love to get your take but i am going to jump the gun here and i'm going to say the way that i critique me on this as well the way that i'm trying to overcome this because i cannot be researching every single individual and maybe i should maybe i need to be more selective we'll talk about that afterwards but my mediocre solution is to try and segment it as much as possible yeah that's it okay yeah Yeah, that's it.

5:49It's just, look, if you have a hundred different segments where there's just a slight deviation, you know, so maybe let's say you're reaching out for the same topic, but you're reaching out to different industries. If you're adding in the correct USPs, if you're using the right language, if you understand what their challenges are specific to them. Yeah, that is that's the best that you can do with automation because you're right. I mean, ultimately, it does come down to a numbers game. And it's just a case of if you're going to do it, do it in the best possible way, but also completely and utterly accept that people will tell you to.

6:31Which is. Can't be horrible about it. You've got to be like, yeah, fair enough. That's a given. That's table stakes and sales full stop anyway. You need to be ready to be told to F off and we will do a separate episode all on resilience and water off a duck's back with all of that. And get me crying in the shower after you get rejected. Is that not, that wasn't it. Sorry, not that one. What's really interesting on this bad outreach point is there's kind of a, I don't know, a silly but understandable psychological phenomenon, which is called the input bias. I don't know. The co-host dynamic here is already taking shape.

7:12Where there's, we more highly value perceived effort. so for example it's also called um the locksmith effect so if you were to um if you were stuck out of your house and you were to call a locksmith to come and help you sort out the locks to get back in spare set of keys or whatever if they demonstrate like this extra effort or like they've had to come from further away or they've got they've brought with them like a lot more tools and they're spending a bit more time sort of sorting through the different to find the right things and if they sort of fail the first time and oh this one didn't making a bit of a meal out of it you will more highly value that service because they've gone to that that sort of larger extent more effort so you don't mind handing over the 200 quid whereas if they stomp them over the road just shoot a bit of air for your lock and put the key back in and then they charge you 200 quid for the pleasure you're not gonna like party and it's a

8:26so you felt the pain yeah firsthand this extends out to so many different scenarios so many different things where it's like you know it took me you know it it takes two seconds to cut the wire but it took me 10 years to learn which wire to cut right so it's like there is still value there is still knowledge but there is this perceived effort so linking this back to the bad outreach which is like at the end of the day it's like i feel like we all know what game we're playing we all know what we're here for we all know what we're kind of using and systems and tools and stuff it's so it's almost more like a bullshit production that we have to play into yeah to be like okay i do know more than just your first name and your job title is that have i proven enough effort to you yeah to get you on a call with me very true yeah have you have you made enough effort yeah I think that's fair enough I mean I was I was about to say I was listening to this really good interview the other day it was Ideas Fest where you were hosting not to like blow smoke up your ass but um the um Simon who who he has this huge fund and he was saying sometimes they'll reject people who they want to invest in to see how resiliently I are.

9:44Yes. And that I was like, oh, God. This is so validating because I tell everyone that I work with, like, you've got to keep going. Like, you can do it. Like, doesn't matter if you don't hear back. Just keep going. And then, yeah, to hear that they want to see how hard you'll work and how hard you'll put. It's a test in and of itself. But Steph, we've done something very classic here. And we're going to talk about my ADHD in the future. But we've derailed. No. I want to hear what's your most hated deadly sin? What do you hate that salespeople do? I hate. I don't know if this is on the list. It probably is on the list.

10:21But the very first thing that comes to mind is a visceral reaction because I too have been a victim of this and I cannot stand it. And now I am like acutely aware of if anyone else does this, I look out for it. creating a full sense of urgency yeah i cannot stand it i cannot stand this backing you into a corner making you feel like you're out of time you don't have options so again gang this is on both sides of the table right this is being an effective salesperson and on the other side of it as well. I fell victim to this, I'm sorry to say. And it was the right sort of time. It was with my last business.

11:06And the context that worked in their favour that they weren't aware of was, it was a time in my last business where things were stagnating, starting to try out different things. I'd never had to reinvest in marketing or BD for my own business before. It was all very organic or building it out on personal brand or my networking and my hustle. And it was at this time I was like trying these different things. And I was thinking, you know what, like, I'm not enough of a risk taker. This was my internal narrative that again, they weren't aware of. And I was looking at other people who seem to be succeeding, my competitors, my counterparts.

11:42I was like, you know, they're taking more risks. They've got more balls. They're putting their money where their mouth is. They're investing it back into the business. And it was the sales call I had for a business intelligence platform. Crazy expensive. I feel like if you know, you know, these are already enough clues. I can already know exactly what you were talking about. Do you? Oh, I mean, there's probably two in my mind, but I won't say them because I would love them to be sponsors. I was about to ask you if one of them began with a certain letter. I'm like, oh, bite my tongue. Wouldn't.

12:18I wouldn't. We'll debrief afterwards of the cameras. Quick interruption. We're sure that you are on the edge of your seats. At least we hope so. But just want to say, if you haven't already subscribed, then what are you waiting for? This is your opportunity. We are giving you a few moments to pull out your phone or wherever you're listening to this. Hit that follow or subscribe button wherever you are listening. We're giving you that time now. Doesn't cost a single thing. And gang, honestly, it really helps us out. Doesn't cost a thing. Takes two secs. Hit that button. And it is a massive, massive support.

12:47Thank you so much. Let's get back to the episode. But do you know what the problem is, is that when you've been, look, this wasn't a scam, like I wasn't scammed. No, no, no. But when you've had a negative experience, especially if you're the founder, in this case I was and it was my own money, it can leave such a lasting, bitter taste in your mouth. Where this was years ago, I mean, this was maybe either 22 or 23. So this is like a couple of years ago and I still and I still have I get their newsletters. I still get that update. And every time I see the name, I'm like, oh, I get this horrible reaction.

13:25So as much as like in the moment, you as the salesperson, you might be, you know, trying to hit your quota. But I think what we don't think enough about and I guess maybe this leads into another sort of sin here, but it's overlooking. I know you're all about this and I love it. It's overlooking the value of the long term relationship. because you got some money out of me short term. You really dialed up the pressure. You really put my back into, look, no one had a gun to my head either, right? But they were very good at putting on the pressure. They were very good at giving me a deadline. There were a lot of follow-ups, a lot of calls.

14:04That stresses me out as well. You know, we leave each other alone. I need autonomy. I need space. It was these calls, stress, missed calls. It was very, very stressful. and again and so the combination of my own internal narrative of like i need to be more ballsy i need to so i was like yeah let's go for it ended up like not having any roi what it was a loss yeah and it just didn't they didn't create the space for me to consider it to sit on it to think about it and whatever money they did get out of me has cost this longer term negative association that I now have with them. 100%. I think it either will go one of two ways.

14:47Either you get the client and they have a rubbish time and you don't continue working together. Yeah. Or it puts people off immediately. Yeah. And that's me. The moment someone becomes too pushy with me, I call it commission breath. Smell it. What does commission breath smell like? Commission breath smells like the end of the month and desperation. And I have had commission breath before. Every salesperson has had commission breath. But like, it's the, please work with me. Please give me the money. And it's like, you know, like those old Looney Tunes, like the hand comes out and it's like this, except it's horrifying.

15:32Anyway, it just, for me, it immediately puts me off. I remember when me and my wife were house hunting. we saw this flat that just it didn't quite feel right and they basically said the guy said to us well look um if someone doesn't put an offer in this week the seller is actually just going to start renting it out so you need to tell me and I looked at my wife and I looked at him and I was like oh well that actually makes life really easy then he was like oh yeah yeah yeah does it and I was like yeah we're not interested we're gonna go yes and we just left take back the power because I'm absolutely not fussed about it at all I have had such a huge react and I'm like controlling myself to let you and not interrupt you there because the whole time we talk about bad sales people this whole theme of like seven deadly sins estate agents oh yeah well they do all of them they do all of them yeah and this is where i'm getting excited with you mentioning this because i could not believe it obviously we've we can all relate to this as well whether we're renting or buying the last time i was flat hunting was to buy and long term like i knew wherever i was going to by next i was gonna be in there like easy five ten years yeah and you're walking me into this house you're there with i get back to the space in the autonome i need space give me space yeah you're there follow me around telling me that's a bathroom i can see it's a fucking bathroom thank you so much there's a bed in this room guess what it's called the bedroom yeah leave me alone let me have a look and tash you literally you literally this is no exaggeration say you spend more time trying on shoes in a shoe store than looking around a house to purchase.

17:11This is the biggest purchase most people will make. It's the most long-term thing. They start dialing on the pressure. I call them right out on this beer. I'm like, this is a massive purchase. I'm going to be in here for a very long time. I do not need you dialing on the pressure. The other thing is... This is the third deadly sin because it's being aggressive and pushy. Be aggressive and pushy. Yeah. Which, just why? This is the other thing. The effect, what we're getting at here is being a better, effective salesperson. How is it effective? Yeah. If we use this, okay, I know we're B2B sales, but we'll just stick on the estate agent one because I do have to get this off my chest.

17:51Everyone can relate. Well, not everyone, but most people relate. Most people, right? my question is especially with this example and it does apply to b2b in your products and everything else but we use the house because it's an easy example right why do you think that you and what you say and what you do and whatever tactics you do are going to influence my liking of this house i know what i want i've been flat hunting for a while I've rented and bought other places I've gone through this process I know my non-negotiables I know what I want I can come to mind conclude I'm an adult yeah why do you think that you acting in a certain way is going to change because the house people aren't as strong in their convictions as you it's to take advantage of the undecided the slightly less strong yeah it's that's why they do it because okay you know sales is a numbers game if you speak to if you show 10 people the same flat one of them will be and I don't mean it in horrible but like weak enough that you can push them into this decision yeah and that's just what they'll do and obviously there's a chance that maybe one of them sees a flat and they're like this is my dream flat I really want it but one of the reasons why we got our house was because our agent actually was like are you sure you want this now in fairness it was a crack den when we bought that's maybe another episode we do like a patreon and it's like behind the dark bonus bonus sales in her crack sales stash yes my crack den sales stash but it was her saying like are you sure like you really have to imagine what this house can be you really have to be able to to like pick you know what it will be because it needs a lot of work and it was that that really made me go like refreshing yeah bit of reverse psychology there about it yeah i love that i love that but you know what my question is unfair because that is the whole role of sales so if we take the house analogy to b2b sales whatever the product is there is lots of choice out there and your role as an effective salesperson is not only communicating those benefits to your prospect but to your earlier point on bad outreach on tailoring understanding them what do they need yeah but again separate episode yeah that's our next deadly sin well actually like exactly i think you i don't even think you meant to but you've sort of unintentionally teed it up perfectly which is if you move that idea over to b2b sales it's lying and it's it's over promising and this and this is something that I think a lot of businesses will do unintentionally and also intentionally but especially like when you're very early stage as well you will over promise yeah and actually look there's a lot of the time people really dislike sales people but sometimes the dislike is coming from inside the house and it's other teams that don't like them and I often don't think it's very valid.

21:01I think it's a bit unfair. However, the one time it is somewhat valid is when the tech team is like, hey, why did you promise this client that we can create this for them or that this is something we offer? We don't. And you've just ruined our roadmap. We have to drop everything. And the salesperson is just like, but we're agile. You guys are agile. Make a scrum. you know scrum it out you'll do it the money's in the bank bye I'm off to spend my commission and then obviously it upsets the team it means that the business as like the actual business fails to function properly yeah and then you just piss off your clients as well because they have bad experience yeah lose lose lose and I think this is the problem with short-termism in a company culture right and it's also where is that being driven from because as they say a fish rots from the head.

21:55And so especially if you are in B2B tech, there's a very high chance that you've got external investors. So this is where it's kind of thinking about zooming out in the bigger picture a little bit and thinking, okay, especially if it's venture capital back in which is very high stakes, high pressure, you come from a very like fast growth scale up, you've got your own incredible story with that as well. So it's kind of like, if it's originating from that, that seeps down to the founder there is a lot of nervousness there's a lot of stress there's this panicky kind of nature that then trickles down into the rest of the teams sales people are put under pressure they've also been put in their position for a reason we've got the hunters gatherers they're there to do their job and so maybe there's another we keep saying all these other separate episodes but maybe there's another one there on reconciling different teams because i think that's a really common challenge tech, sales, marketing.

22:50I think I could talk about that for a while because I think that they all support each other in very important ways. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, you know, it's a team, right? You all need to work together. Yeah, yeah. I'm not going to make a sports analogy. Honestly, I wouldn't even understand what I was trying to say. Just a family analogy. We're just a family here. No, no. If anyone says that to me, I'm out. We're not a family. Family. paying me okay well I can like I see your sports team I see your sports team who's your family exactly exactly but it's the timescales it's the timescales which is the problem that puts the undue pressure yeah in a marketing for sure 100 % like this is a humongous challenge as well delivering the lead the SQLs the MQLs delivering the leads and you're like we need to build a brand anyway that's a whole separate episode gang we've mentioned a few times about different episodes only if you're interested like we're here for you we are your monkeys okay not from the look on tansy's face um but look this show wouldn't exist without you so if you're interested in hearing about some of these let us know leave us a comment we have a new email account as well which is called the s word show hq at gmail.com i think uh we'll pop it in the show notes but we want to hear from you so feedback anything that sounds interesting um let us know all right stories i want to hear all your horrible sales stories i love them and they can be anonymous as well you can trust us like don't worry well what about an oxymoron trust us we're very trustworthy sales people mind you that is you know as we were saying like we can't just shit on bad sales practice without saying what you should do yeah the best thing you can do if you don't have a product built and you're a salesperson is to be honest with the buyer yeah you know and say to them look we're not here but we want to be you've got the option to be on the ground floor and help us build it we can create something that is almost like it's made for you and obviously you know it's going to benefit us in the in the end because we can do it with other people but it's built to your spec and what you want and then and i've done this a couple of times they then foot the bill for everyone else amazing i love so nice you're so good at turning a negative into a positive as well this is such a this is a real magic a lot of therapy this is a real magic like sales skill though it is yeah and you must have to do that so much on your feet as well right which is oh fuck this is the situation we can't meet your demands however i love how you phrased it you can get on the ground floor with us you can collaborate you can help kind of yeah develop this love that i think ultimately if you're more positive in life people like you more and i don't think i actually thought of this as one of the seven deadly sins but i should say Like a miserable, horrible salesperson is rubbish.

26:01I can't. Could you even have you ever met a miserable salesperson? So many times. Have you never met a salesperson? I mean, but I feel like sometimes I'll get onto a sales pitch. Yeah. My energy. I'm always at like a 10 and I'm a lot and that's okay. I think you probably get that feedback too. I think we both do. Funny enough, I do resonate. Yeah. Bring the energy. I'd rather be too much than too little. Say it then. And also, I don't know how else to be. But sometimes I'll come onto a call and I'm like, woo, yeah, sell to me, baby. And they're like, okay, let me just take you through. And I'm like, oh, no.

26:42Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very true. I don't want to give you my money. And I'm so easy to sell to as well. Like, I'm such a sucker. If you're positive, I'm in. Please, please don't take that as an invitation. you are right and i do my mind again it does go a bit more to like the geeky like the psychology behind it as well there has to be something around i think it's moving people to action right i think it's like if you want a commitment if you want an investment you've got to get excited about it and how can you get people excited if you're not bringing the energy yeah very very true all right i'm starting already to lose count and i think we're only about halfway through so what's our next okay so oh this is when we actually talked about in the podcast where we met which is pitch slapping and actually i think it brings two deadly sins together which is a salesperson that doesn't listen to you and doesn't ask questions yeah because that usually then leads to immediately pitching at you yeah and there's a few times that it's like especially bad i think any sales pitch shouldn't start just aggressively with a pitch but like mostly when you're networking and someone's like let me tell you why you should work with me and you're like i already know i don't want to literally don't even know my name yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah you don't even know what i do yeah i'm i'm really sorry i'm i don't need your business yeah you have no idea who i am yet it's also again giving this pragmatic advice to anyone in sales like you're wasting your time like don't waste your time yes numbers game and putting your reps and everything but it's like jordan belfoot sell me this pen is like i'm not gonna try and sell it to you if you don't want it yeah like so you need to understand that first and foremost gang i did fall into the pitch slap trap pitch slap trap but in my very weak defense it was a voicemail so they couldn't answer me back but and this then comes to the last deadly sin is you didn't commit which you didn't commit which is you followed up you followed up with everyone and then you got a deal out of it ching ching gong gong and that level up your commercial strategy with revenue.

29:11Gong, we love you. Thank you. But it's all about your follow up. And that is the worst thing that some salespeople do is that they either don't follow up at all. And this is usually actually not so much a bad thing that a salesperson does, but usually someone who isn't in sales, they just won't follow up. Or they follow up really, really badly. Okay, so what's an example of a bad follow up? updates question oh i showed tash one on my inbox just before we started recording which was what was it any thoughts and i don't know why what really bothered me because it was a subject

29:57capitalize your subject lines it was all okay it was as well okay loops all the way back to the input by the effort you haven't even bothered to grammatically steph it's almost like we're amazing at doing podcasts look at us looping right back to the beginning we are such pros so not following up like so we've got within this not following up at all yeah following up lazily with just like updates part of this as well is like just circling back just bumping this back up to your oh it's so annoying yeah so unimaginative it's also like it makes it more boring for you yeah instead to be helpful what's some advice i always call people to follow up so you don't even email i'll always give them the opportunity to respond via email so like we have a meeting i send my immediate follow-up this is what we talked about blah blah blah and then I'll send another email.

30:58Sorry, I just want to underscore, sorry, striking while the iron is hot. Striking while the iron is hot. Following up straight afterwards. Do not underestimate the power of doing that. They're in the moment. It's fresh. Let's get going. I tell you what, there's an eighth deadly sin. Bonus. That's for the Patreon subscribers. No, go for it. I had a meeting with someone. I said to them, right, I want to buy this thing. I want it. Send me the information. They did not. I then messaged them and said, could you please send it to me? I wouldn't. I wouldn't even do that. They still haven't sent it. Awful.

31:35I know. But I know I need it for my business. Oh, that's annoying. And there's no one else who does it. So they've got the power. They have got the power. Yeah. Afterwards, an empathetic voice comes in, which is like, okay, maybe benefit of the doubt. Lie. But. Gets in the way. But that is bad. and for you to have to follow up that the shoe is on the is on the wrong foot with that one so with the follow so i want to recap so we've got follow up quickly like strap while the iron is hot you sorry you were saying you call instead of email but also i very rarely need to follow up with people because in every meeting i have i always book a second meeting yes so that means i have to deal with the follow-up because i think it's always really difficult but yeah an email then a call then you can go back to email but try and switch it up keep them guessing on their toes they'll never know where you're coming a few little tricks that i've been doing on the follow-ups so if you are doing more of the email i.e me then i i do a couple of things one is okay with the first one i purposely like don't give a lot of information so again if we use like the podcast sponsorships as an example i'll ask this is what we're doing these are some of us You can give a bit of a flavor, a bit of a test.

32:51I come from a marketing background as well, so I can legitimately talk about the media landscape and how the options are changing and everything and the legitimate effectiveness of podcast. Anyway, give a bit of a flavor. Would you be interested in taking a look at the media kit? So you're not giving it all up straight away. So you're purposely almost creating that breadcrumbing for yourself. And then you're then making it easier for yourself to follow up. and then sometimes what I do is almost like continue the conversation so that there's almost a psychological hack as well where when they see because you would always see the first line or two of the email or the LinkedIn message and I almost want to give that sense of like we have been in conversation so there's almost like oh here's more information about it almost as if it's like I feel I sort of play this game where I'm like I'm respond I'm doing phantom responses Oh, yeah.

33:42I imagine the conversation and I just do one side of it. Exactly. No, I love that because I'll always, one of my favourite follow up lines is always like, oh, I thought you might like a bit more information. And it's like, probably not. Yeah. But here it is anyway. PS hack as well is crazy effective doing a PS because it's always like, oh, what else was it? There's like a sense of intrigue. Interesting. I'm going to start adding PS. It really is. There's a whole other thing on this as well. There's like a masterclass I watch, which was like, I can't remember it, but it's just that sense of like, oh, by the way, there's this.

34:22And you're more interested because you're like, oh, wait, what's that about? Nice. Yeah. I'll try it out. Let you know how it goes. Report back. You try it out. Later. Little tips and tricks. Have we wrapped our seven deadly sins, Tash? I think that we have. I think that anyone who has listened to this will now never commit one of these sins. Not one single sin. Otherwise. Not one single sin. Otherwise. We'll see you in sales hell. Yeah. In sales hell as their own personal deal. With all the estate agents. With all the estate agents. Oh my God. Literally my idea of hell the worst. I'm sure there are some nice estate agents out there.

35:02All estate agents. Not all estate agents. Anyway. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this hope you learned something new and most importantly hope that you have taken away something practical that you can implement don't feel bad as well honestly I feel like we're not here to guilt trip like we've all done these things just by saying we commit one of the worst sins 100 % 100 % so don't worry this is a safe space don't worry if you've committed the same sins but don't do it anymore thank you so much for listening and look forward to seeing you next time

35:37I'm