A Court of Drugs and Guns

16:06Kate Shaw:I know.

16:06Melissa Murray:I do not want to see any of them in a toga. Fair.

16:09Kate Shaw:To strike a serious note for one minute, though, part of the reason everyone drank so much in ye olde days was that we didn't have real water filtration or purification yet. And so alcohol was a lot safer to drink than water a lot of the time. And because this seems to be the reality that Secretary Build-A-Bear slash Raw Milk, to bring in another cabinet secretary, is earnestly trying to cultivate, maybe it is time or soon will be time for all of us to hit the casks. Although, for the record, we haven't tonight. Just sugar, which is our drug of choice.

16:46Leah Litman:There was a real frat bro undercurrent to the argument, and the Georgetown Prep alums brought their usual C game to the occasion. Take a listen to Neal's fellow Georgetown Prep alum, Brett Kavanaugh.

17:05Kate Shaw:In response to Justice Alito, I think you said that drugs are distinct from alcohol for Second Amendment purposes, although there's some similarities.

17:16Melissa Murray:Is that accurate?

17:17Kate Shaw:Yes, and I would say that, yes, I can elaborate. Please elaborate. Okay.

17:23Leah Litman:Yes, that is Brett, I like beer, Kavanaugh, begging the federal government to make a case for why there's a difference between people using drugs and people using alcohol. It's almost like he's personally invested. Almost, almost. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Ladies, existing in a government of the manosphere, by the manosphere, and for the manosphere is a lot. It seriously feels like every single day brings a new reminder or new way that culture, law, government, society are making it harder on women or just don't value us, which makes it all the more important to support and celebrate women and all that they carry in their many roles.

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21:29Leah Litman:things only devolved from there in fact it got so weird we're going to play a little game where we invite you our listeners and audience to try to guess which justice brought up which drug during the argument. We'll pose the question, you think of the answer, and then we'll tell you which justices actually had which drugs on their minds. Okay first, which justice invoked anabolic steroids? If you guessed Coach Kavanaugh, and I heard a few, sorry you're wrong. That was a good guess. It was a good guess. Okay, justice for Brett Kavanaugh, okay? It was Clarence Thomas who brought up the roids.

22:31Melissa Murray:So real talk, I thought this was so helpful for contextualizing his concurrence slash rant in SFFA versus Harvard. I just thought he was an older black man mad that he couldn't get the younger black woman on the court to sign on to his program of completely dismantling affirmative action. But in fact, he may just have been raging.

22:56Kate Shaw:Why not both? They do have that effect. Or both. All right. Next question. Which justice brought up Ambien?

23:07Leah Litman:Okay, I heard some in the audience say Barrett. Now, Justice Sotomayor was actually the first to bring up Ambien, but, but, it was Justice Barrett who really dug into it. In fact, in fact, she offered the following hypothetical. Justice Sotomayor asked you about someone who takes Ambien to sleep, So let's assume that someone takes their spouse's Ambien prescription. The spouse takes it too, lawfully, with the prescription. But then, you know, you take it unlawfully because you break into your spouse's Ambien jar.

23:57Melissa Murray:First question. Why is there a jar of Ambien in your house? It doesn't come in a jar, right? Like, cookies come in a jar? Ambien does not come in a jar. So, girl, what is happening in your home?

24:22Leah Litman:She brought up Ambien four separate times after Justice Sotomayor did.

24:31Kate Shaw:She also referenced both Adderall and Ritalin repeatedly.

24:36Melissa Murray:So that was actually, again, very revealing to me. So she offered a hypothetical that involved a college student who takes his roommate's Ritalin twice a week because he thinks it will help with exams. That is a quote. To which I say, ma 'am, that is a very specific hypothetical.

24:58Leah Litman:The details are really what kind of give it away. You could have been very general about that. You could, and yet, Amy was also the first justice to bring up Xanny or Xanax. Okay, one other drug or drugs cocktail, as the case may be. Which justice decided to invoke the prospect of a combination of meth, heroin, cocaine, and fentanyl?

25:39Melissa Murray:Sam Alito is the answer. Why did everyone know that? Whoa, whoa. I'm low-key offended that Sam Alito got more applause than any of us.

25:52Leah Litman:Okay, they were clapping because they knew the answer. Because they listened to this podcast. And I just want to say that all of his opinions make much more sense now.

26:06Kate Shaw:Okay, Leah said that would be the last one, but I actually want to add one more, which is sort of a compound question. So who brought up ayahuasca? And then who seemed to protest a little too much in disclaiming any specific knowledge of that drug? Two-part question.

26:24Melissa Murray:Wait, wait, wait. They know.

26:26Kate Shaw:They know.

26:26Melissa Murray:They know. So Justice Kagan did bring up the ayahuasca first. And I actually think this is one of the most unintentionally hilarious moments of the argument. So Justice Kagan described ayahuasca as a, quote, very, very, very intense hallucinogen.

26:52Leah Litman:Okay, I just want to say, if I worked with Sam Alito, Neil Gorsuch, and Brett Kavanaugh, I would also be interested in very, very, very intense hallucinogens.

27:04Kate Shaw:You can sort of hear the longing in her voice, very, very, very intense.

27:08Melissa Murray:Like, am I hallucinating now? Please. If I worked with them, I would be living in Sproul Plaza. So, Justice Kagan first brought up the ayahuasca, and she also, I think, went to great pains to explain that, quote, I don't know a lot about this drug. I'm assuming you don't know a lot about this drug, so what I'm going to tell you about this drug, let's just assume it's the truth about this drug.

27:34Leah Litman:Oh, okay. You say so, Elena. That was pretty funny, but it was even more hilarious that after going all in on Ambien, Xanax, Ritalin, and Adderall, and Robitussin 2, Justice Barrett was like, ayahuasca? I've never heard of the drug. Is that real? Girl, be real. if we are allowed to add one more drug to the list I have to say Neil Gorsuch threw out the word gummy with surprising familiarity fluency, right? And then he immediately hastened to add the word bear as if to dispel any suggestion that he is familiar with dispensary lingo. Now, it might not be doing coke off the toilet, but I did bring us some gummy bears to do on the podcast stage.

28:50Leah Litman:Thank you.

28:58Melissa Murray:Like I said, I've never done this. these are real gummy bears this is big for Melissa just actual gummy bears

29:05Kate Shaw:these are real gummy bears alright because we are nothing if not fair and balanced I do want to say though as to some of the drugs that we were just mentioning the lawyer for the solicitor general brought up the drug in the first instance so they didn't necessarily just conjure out of thin air all of the hypos that we just walked through still their fixation on certain drugs was curious okay you're being way too generous

29:28Leah Litman:like she opened the door they ran through. The solicitor general did not bring up a jar of Ambien.

29:37Melissa Murray:Or ayahuasca. No one was talking about ayahuasca.

29:41Leah Litman:No, no. Anyways. Okay, so the drug-fueled flavor of the Himani argument seemed to bleed into some of the court's shadow docket shenanigans, by which we mean the court released two shadow docket orders that were clearly written under the influence. You all know the shadow docket. This is your shadow docket on drugs.

30:06Kate Shaw:So the first possibly drug influenced order came in a redistricting case out of New York, where the US Supreme Court paused a state court ruling that had invalidated the sole Republican held congressional seat in New York City. So in Staten Island, because of course, and also part of Brooklyn. So the state court concluded that the district lines violated the state constitution because they diluted the voting power of black and Hispanic voters. The court then ordered the state to redraw the district, which would have turned a safe Republican seat into a more competitive one.

30:37Melissa Murray:And of course, the Supreme Court would not let that happen because racial discrimination. All right. This court may actually have identified finally an illegal racial gerrymander. Remember, racial gerrymandering is when districts are drawn in ways that consolidate political power in ways that disadvantage minority groups. And what is the impermissible racial gerrymander that the court may have identified in this particular circumstance? It's the fact that the New York trial court decision ordering the state to draw a different set of maps that didn't dilute the voting power of minority voters.

31:15Melissa Murray:That's the racial discrimination that the court finds impermissible. Now, to be very clear, this court did not conclude that it was racial discrimination when the Trump Department of Injustice begged the state of Texas to redraw new districts mid-cycle and gerrymander away majority-minority districts where minorities voters could elect the voters of their choice. Instead, they chose to save their powder for this particular instance. Yeah.

31:45Leah Litman:Now, the court's order in the New York case is unexplained, hence our caveats about possible racial gerrymander and whatnot. We don't know why these goblins paused the state court ruling. But when you consider the redistricting cases from California, Texas, and New York together, the punchline seems to be that partisan gerrymanders are fine. But once you start trying to remedy racial gerrymanders where minority groups are underrepresented, that is a bridge too far. There was one writing from one justice who voted for the stay, and it was from friend of the pod, Sam Alito.

32:31Kate Shaw:He was definitely hopped up on something in this concurrence. So he declared that it is, quote, unadorned racial discrimination to create a new congressional district for the express purpose of ensuring that, quote, minority voters, which was in scare quotes, are able to elect the candidate of their choice. Ah, yes, we cannot have minority voters getting to cast meaningful votes to elect candidates who will represent their interests.

32:56Melissa Murray:Now, if that logic sounds ominous to you, then you know Sam Alito, and you've probably been listening to this podcast. So effectively, Sam Alito is suggesting that any race-conscious redistricting, including efforts to remedy the opportunity to lock minority voters out of power, that's the real racial discrimination that we have to address. And if you follow—yes, hiss, because it's terrible. If you follow that logic, then that will likely doom whatever shards remain of the Voting Rights Act, which is still up for grabs in a pending case before this court, Louisiana v. Calais. And at this point, I can just imagine Clarence Thomas sitting in his land yacht in a Walmart parking lot, reading Justice Alito's statement and chortling to himself, yes, Padawan, I have taught you well.

33:56Leah Litman:Justice Sotomayor's dissent for the three Democratic appointees wrote, quote, the court's 101-word unexplained order can be summarized in just seven. Rules for thee, but not for me. Yeah.

34:16Leah Litman:As Justice Sotomayor noted, in other cases the Supreme Court has paused federal court orders that had invalidated voting restrictions on the ground that federal courts should not interfere with election rules too close to an election. That's the so-called Purcell principle.

34:34Melissa Murray:But that's exactly what the court did. They did exactly what they tell federal courts that they shouldn't do, which is to change election rules when the election is looming or very close. So from what I can get from this, the true meaning of the Purcell principle is that it's always too close to an election to do something that would result in a multiracial democracy or wins for the Democratic Party, but it's never too close to an election to do something that would benefit the Republican Party. Am I getting this right? I think, yeah. Am I doing the gerrymandering right? Yeah. Great. Okay. Yeah.

35:07Kate Shaw:And that is the kind of emerging, I think, lesson from the court's cases in this area. And as bad as previous cases have been in some ways, the New York case is actually a new low. And that's because the court did not have authority to intervene in this case at all. So by law, the Supreme Court only has jurisdiction, right, the power to hear cases from a state court, which this case arose from, once the state's highest court that could have ruled on the issue has done so. And that did not happen here, which means the court didn't have authority to issue this order. And yet they did it anyway. In the concurrence that Justice Alito wrote that we were just talking about, I think he arguably really misrepresents the background, suggesting that New York's highest court had refused to intervene, even though they hadn't been asked to rule after the intermediate appellate court ruled here.

35:58Kate Shaw:but he basically, I think in a somewhat misleading way, described the procedural background and then said the court's intervention here was just fine because it's just like other cases, including one in which the court intervened to protect Nazis' right to march in Skokie, Illinois. Like that's the best case that he could find. But whatever you make of that decision, the state courts in that case had denied relief. That wasn't what happened here. Yeah.

36:24Leah Litman:So I have a controversial take I would like to offer. And it's this. Is Sam Alito the real Pete Hegseth of the Supreme Court? People might think it's Brett Kavanaugh. I'm not sure because Sam's opinion here honestly had echoes of Pete Hegseth standing in front of the lectern firing off. There are no rules of engagement. We are not going to abide by those woke rules and basically admitting to war crimes in front of the entire world, like it just coded Sam Alito to me. I don't know. For instance,

37:05Melissa Murray:yeah, all right, we haven't even scratched the surface of the shadow docket. The shadow docket is the gift that keeps on giving. It takes a lot more than a little hypocrisy from this court to really kick off that decision season. So the court's Republican justices decided that get things started this year by making substantive due process great again. And they did that in a case called Mirabelli versus Bonta. Yes, that Bonta. So this is a shadow docket decision arising from a case here in California. And let me give you just a quick refresher. Substantive due process refers to the idea that the Constitution protects rights that aren't specifically and explicitly listed in the Constitution's text.

37:51Melissa Murray:So these include unenumerated rights like the right to an abortion. Remember that one? It was a good one. It was a good one. Also the right to contraception. Don't get attached. Anyway, in Dobbs, the court overruled Roe versus Wade, ending the constitutional right to choose an abortion and making clear that going forward, any unenumerated right that would be understood to be entitled to constitutional protection had to be one that was quote unquote deeply rooted in the history and tradition of this country.

38:24Leah Litman:And this past week the guys in the Dobbs majority decided that one right that is deeply rooted in our history and tradition is parents right to be notified if their child identifies as transgender at school. Effectively to have the school out their children as trans. And they did so in a gratuitously nasty opinion. So these ghouls could have avoided using pronouns. Instead, they chose to use she and daughter over the child's objection.

39:01Kate Shaw:And in addition to the court's hypocrisy on substantive due process, which Melissa was just talking about, Justice Kagan, who penned a lengthy dissent, called out the court's hypocrisy on the issue of parental rights between this case and the Scrametti case. So recall that in last year's decision in Scrametti, the court upheld Tennessee's ban on gender-affirming care for minors. There, although it was asked to do so, the court opted not even to weigh in on whether the Constitution protects parents' right to ensure that their child can obtain gender-affirming care without undue interference from the state.

39:38Kate Shaw:So refused to even consider the parental rights question in Scrametti, and here, on the shadow docket, decided to sashay in and declare that the Constitution does afford parents the right to have their child outed to them as transgender.

39:52Melissa Murray:The other thing that makes this really egregious is that this is obviously a major question of substantive importance, and they decided to issue this decision on the shadow docket rather than taking the opportunity to resolve it on the merits docket. And there are plenty of opportunities to do so on the merits docket. There are a number of petitions that are pending before the court that would have raised this issue. They could have waited for the Ninth Circuit to finish its consideration of this question. But they were so impatient that they couldn't do any of these things. And they disagreed with every single court of appeals that has so far considered this matter.

40:32Melissa Murray:Yeah.

40:33Leah Litman:So if the punchline of the Purcell principle is that it's always too close to an election to do anything that benefits multiracial democracy, but never too close to an election to do things that benefit the Republican Party, this is now the punchline of substantive due process. Substantive due process is bad when abortion, but good when anti-trans. Parental rights are unnecessary when the right is to support your trans kid, but they're an emergency requiring immediate action when the asserted parental right is to out your trans kid. As Justice Sotomayor said in the New York case, rules for thee, but not for me.

41:15Leah Litman:And that, that is our update on One First Street.

41:22Melissa Murray:Still sucks.

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42:37Leah Litman:New customer offer for first three months only, then full-price plan options available. Texas and Fees Extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Now I'd like to tell you about a new podcast, The Briefing, with Michael Waldman. Michael is a former White House speechwriter, lawyer, and constitutional scholar. He leads the Brennan Center for Justice, which works to repair and strengthen American democracy across a range of issues, from gerrymandering to abuse of presidential power, from Supreme Court reform to corruption, and more. We've all worked with Michael and his team of experts, and we can tell you that no one understands these challenges better than they do.

43:09Leah Litman:What makes the Brennan Center unique is that it's more than a think tank. It's focused on turning ideas into policy. And that's what we like about the briefing podcast. You're going to hear new ideas, but you're also going to learn about the strategies, the political fights, and the dealmaking that will shape the next phase of American democracy. If you care about American democracy, this is a podcast for you. You can listen and subscribe to The Briefing with Michael Waldman wherever you get your podcasts.

43:37Leah Litman:For a change of pace and breath of fresh air, we'd like to talk to a lawyer who believes in the rule of law generally, not just selectively.

43:50Melissa Murray:Which is why we are delighted to bring onto the stage our very special guest for this show, your Attorney General California Rob Bonta!

44:09Rob Bonta:Good evening, everyone.

44:11Melissa Murray:Welcome to the show.

44:14Rob Bonta:Honored to be here.

44:16Kate Shaw:We're thrilled to have you, and we do want to cover a lot of friends. We thought we'd jump right in by asking you to tell us. So we're recording on Friday. And yesterday, you filed a lawsuit against the Trump administration. Yes. It sounds like the people of this city know that. But for the listeners who don't, can you tell us about that lawsuit?

44:38Rob Bonta:Absolutely. And let me first say this was our 60th lawsuit that we brought in less than 60 weeks. We're bringing more than one lawsuit a week. We're winning repeatedly. We're winning 80 % of the time. We're securing restraining orders and final judgments. And sometimes when we sue, Trump just backs down and says, I give up. We've protected$200 billion of funding that California is owed. It's our funding that Congress appropriated. The branch with the power of the purse. We're protecting constitutional rights, like voting rights and birthright citizenship. And this was our second case challenging Trump's unlawful tariffs.

45:13Rob Bonta:We had just won a prior case, our AG coalition, striking down his unlawful tariffs under the International IEPA, and International Emergency Economic Powers Act. And he is dead set on his commitment to unaffordability and to raising prices. He is working overtime. He is stretching and reaching, even doing unlawful things to make, to create tariffs that raise prices for him. This president? Doing a lot of things? I mean, it's shocking. He promised he was going to lower costs on day one.

45:43Leah Litman:It stinks because he chickens out on everything else and he refuses to chicken out on attacking affordability or tariffs.

45:50Rob Bonta:He's fully committed. He's all in. He's going to finish the job. The job's not done yet. And so he brought in other lawsuits on the day the Supreme Court issued their decision under Section 122 of the Trade Act of 1974. And he has no basis to bring these tariffs. This statute has never been invoked before in 52 years of existence, never. And it's based on an archaic system, based on a balance of payments deficit analysis at a time when we had fixed exchange rates instead of the floating exchange rates. So the bottom line is he's acted unlawfully again. He has no basis for this lawsuit. So Congress has the power to tax.

46:30Rob Bonta:Tariffs are taxes. Trump can't issue these tariffs. So we went to court again to strike them down and fight for affordability for Americans.

46:43Kate Shaw:And we should say, so obviously he lost big in the IEPA case in the Supreme Court. And one additional piece of legal news we haven't had a chance to cover is that the Court of International Trade, right after the Supreme Court ruled, issued a pretty sweeping ruling last week on the issue of refunds, basically finding that refunds are owed and the court's decision last year in the CASA case about universal injunctions actually doesn't apply in the Court of International Trade. So according to that court, everybody, not just the particular plaintiffs who came to that court, is entitled to their refunds.

47:15Kate Shaw:And so I think that is probably, because the Trump administration is already saying it can't possibly comply, that is likely headed back to SCOTUS. And I wouldn't be surprised if this Trade Act, Section 122 case, is on a fast track as well. But, you know, so far, he's striking out. And I think there's every reason to believe that he's going to keep striking out.

47:34Rob Bonta:I think he's going to continue to lose here. And look, he needs to give all the American businesses and American people who are hurt by his unlawful tariffs, who he victimized, give them refunds with interest. And do it immediately. And stop waiting, stop dragging your feet. Give them the money that they're owed. You took it from them. And I do want to point out that this was in front of the U.S. Supreme Court. This was his centerpiece economic policy. There was a belief among some that we might win at the lower courts. We might even win at the intermediate appellate court. But if you get to the U.S.

48:01Rob Bonta:Supreme Court, he's got three appointees there. They're going to rubber stamp him. And they didn't on this.

48:06Melissa Murray:But there was also the 401Ks of the justices.

48:10Rob Bonta:I'm not going to get to the reasoning and the rationale. But I like the outcome. It's a good outcome. It's a right outcome. We also won on National Guard in California, Prop 50. We won on that all in front of the U.S. Supreme Court. and my staff will get nervous as I say this because they never want me to predict what the court will do. But I think we're going to get a positive ruling on Lisa Cook and the Federal Reserve Board. I think we're going to get a positive ruling on birthright citizenship. So we'll see how that goes, but we can and we do win in front of the U.S. Supreme Court sometimes.

48:46Leah Litman:So you've already kind of begun to talk about how you, as a state, are stepping up to the plate when the federal government is not only declining to protect people but actively harming them. And we've talked about on the show the possibility of state prosecutions of federal immigration officers. Recently it was reported that Mary Moriarty's office in Minnesota is investigating Colonel Lockjaw, I mean Greg Bovino, after news that a whistleblower alleged that FBI forensic experts were ordered to stand down from processing the scene where Renee Good was killed because Kash Patel didn't want Good referenced as a victim and I know you know your office has been doing a lot of this work so could you tell us about some of what your office is doing to address federal law enforcement overreach and what states can do more generally on that front?

49:35Rob Bonta:Absolutely you know we've been standing up for accountability of federal officers to make sure that they don't act with impunity make sure that they know even though JD Vance says otherwise wrongly that they don't have absolute immunity? They don't? I mean, that's a fact. That's what the law says.

49:50Leah Litman:He went to Yale, so.

49:51Rob Bonta:Ouch, ouch.

49:52Leah Litman:Yeah, I said that to your face, Melissa.

49:54Melissa Murray:You said it to his face, too.

49:56Rob Bonta:I know, it's kind of to my face, too. We're both Yaleys. We don't claim him. We don't claim him.

50:02Leah Litman:Fair.

50:04Rob Bonta:So we've been making it clear that there is accountability and that we're reasserting the rights that we have and affirming the rights that we have as states, as law enforcement officers, as prosecutors, to tackle crime that occurs in our states, even if a federal officer is the one committing it. We actually also joined, as an amicus, the Minnesota lawsuit challenging the militarized occupation of their state based on equal sovereignty and state sovereignty grounds. And the governor and I issued a bulletin to all of our law enforcement community members here in California saying that if a federal officer commits a state crime on California soil and there is a victim here in California, California law enforcement, and prosecutors have the right to investigate, to prosecute, to secure a crime scene, to gather evidence, to do what we do, investigate and prosecute crime.

50:57Rob Bonta:And the fact that we have to say that is unfortunate, but we have to say that. And we even opened up a portal inviting members of the public to share with us information if they think a crime has been committed by a federal officer, oag.ca.gov.reportmisconduct, if you want to share anything that you may know or someone you know knows. And then we also believe that civil liability pathways are important, just like Section 1983 for local and state officers. What Bivens was supposed to be or used to be before it was weakened, there needs to be a civil pathway in California stepping up to put a law into place this year in that regard.

51:35Great.

51:38Leah Litman:I love it. Cheering for Bivens and State Bivens. This is my kind of crowd.

51:44Melissa Murray:You mentioned affordability briefly. One of the things that's contributing to the unaffordability that's plaguing so many Americans is the federal government's refusal to enforce laws that would protect consumers, including antitrust laws and laws that prohibit corporate consolidation. We've talked a lot about this on the podcast. For example, last week, Leah alluded to the consolidation of the Manosphere media in the hands of Larry Ellison and one of his large adult sons. Yeah. He's a very tall man. It's like purely descriptive. This is the Paramount-Morner Brothers merger. But you also have some pending litigation against Live Nation and Ticketmaster.

52:28Melissa Murray:So I know there's a lot going on in the state, and we know you have pending cases. So if you could sort of speak generally, why is it so important for the state to address these questions of oligarchism and corporate consolidation when, for most people, they seem like really big picture issues? How do they sort of get to everyone's bottom line and how are they really kitchen table issues?

52:49Rob Bonta:Yeah, no, thank you. And when you talk about things like, you know, antitrust law and monopolies, it can sometimes people don't know how that affects them. But it goes to exactly what you said. It goes to affordability. Corporate consolidation has proven objectively, historically, that it raises costs. So we have a role as a state to independently investigate and bring lawsuits when we believe that antitrust law is broken, when there's anti-competitive conduct. The federal government has long and traditionally been engaged in that role. The FTC, the USDOJ, what they will do going forward, TBD, and some already determined that, I think they've really withdrawn from that role.

53:30Rob Bonta:And so into that gap and into that void, we must step to continue to protect consumers. And when there's corporate consolidation, you see prices going up. You see wages for workers going down. You see lower quality, less choice, less competition. And that is what we look at in these lawsuits. And so we're looking at that. It's public that we are with respect to Paramount Warner Brothers. We're in court right now in the Southern District of New York on the Live Nation Ticketmaster case. We're looking at other corporate consolidation possibilities and their impact on consumers. But this is about affordability.

54:05Rob Bonta:And so it's not just Trump's tariffs that are raising costs. It's also his lack of enforcement of antitrust law, allowing for corporate consolidation that raises prices for Americans. And that's wrong. Someone needs to do it. And California and the states are stepping into that void.

54:27Kate Shaw:Can I ask you to talk kind of generally about sort of coordination and collaboration? So you've now referenced a few times working with other states and other state AGs, whether it's National Guard, birthright citizenship, some of this anti-corporate consolidation work. So can you just talk a little bit about those collaborations and sort of how, you know, as I tell my kids, teamwork makes the dream work. But like, how does that work? And then can you also tell us like how, my understanding is that this, some coordination has been happening even back, you know, as far back as 2024. So like, when did you start deciding you were going to work together?

55:01Kate Shaw:And what does that look like?

55:03Rob Bonta:Absolutely. And that there are now 24 Democratic attorneys general across the country. There were 23 when we started, we had a pickup in Virginia last year. And we are all sort of independent, sovereign officers in our state representing sovereign states. And we've banded together because we think that we can be more impactful and deliver more to those who need it as a whole than we can as a sum of our parts. And we do it voluntarily. There's no leader. We're all equals who've come together. And we started preparing and thinking about what might come before the election, knowing that we couldn't guarantee it wouldn't be Trump and that we owed our constituents preparedness and readiness and a plan, a plan of action if he took over.

55:47Rob Bonta:So we planned, we charted, we looked at all the campaign promises. We read Project 2025. He put in writing what he was going to do if he took office. And so that horrible as the contents of Project 2025 are, it gave us an ability to prepare and respond and plan. And so we have briefs and actions that are prepped and ready. We just have to dot the I's, cross the T's, press print and file it if it happens. And we believe if he says he will do it, we take him at his word. We can't take the chance that he might not. We have to be ready. So I'm grateful that the 24 AGs have been working and preparing to get there.

56:28Rob Bonta:And one example, we were the first state in the nation where the National Guard was deployed and federalized. And we went to court. We got restraining orders that were successful in preventing the deployment and also preventing violations of the Posse Comitatus Act. and then Trump announced a plan to do this in D.C. and do it in Portland and do it in Chicago. And so our ability to share information, we basically handed over our briefs and our best thinking and our strategy and gave it to our colleagues and they used it as it could be helpful when they were fighting the same battle. And then the California National Guard was deployed from California to Oregon And, you know, the day after the judge there had struck down the deployment of the Oregon National Guard.

57:19Rob Bonta:And so I was on the phone with Oregon AG Rayfield. And we were talking. I was at my mom's birthday brunch when she turned 88. And, you know, I stepped away to talk to AG Rayfield. So but we really value and I so value my colleagues who are in this fight together, who are helping each other, who are sharing information, who are bringing passion. and commitment and talent and knowledge to the table. And we believe that we're really accomplishing some important things for the people of this country.

57:54Leah Litman:So we also wanted to ask some more kind of personal questions. We've talked a lot about on the show. Really personal questions. Not that personal. We've talked a lot about on the show how Brett Kavanaugh is really into being a father of daughters. so can you talk a little bit about what it's like being a dad or father in these times? Yeah, you know, I love and I'm so honored and privileged to be the Attorney General of the

58:25Rob Bonta:state, a state that's given me so much. It's a title I'll always cherish, but far from being the most important title that I have. The most important titles I'll ever have will be husband to my wife Mia and father to my three kids, Andres and Raina and Ileana. And often as a public elected official, I have thought deeply about a decision I'm about to make, wondered if I'm doing the right thing. And I've often gone back to, can you explain what you did to your kids? And they'll understand it and believe dad did the right thing. And they'd be proud. So I think about a lot of what I do through that lens.

59:03Rob Bonta:And I worry about them. And so I look at a lot of my official work through the lens of a dad. I look at the safety work that we do when we're trying to make online platforms and social media and AI safe for children. I think about them when we're doing our affordability work and making sure that there's more housing production in the state of California so that more people can pursue and realize the dream of home ownership. Some Yimby's in the house. and I think about their rights and freedoms and I think about a I just want them to have a world that's fair and just and good and if I can help create that then that really drives me I think about the rights and freedoms and I think about my oldest daughter Raina when I think about that she's a professional soccer player and a filmmaker she met her wife playing professional soccer in Brazil until they got married intentionally and deliberately before the inauguration of Donald Trump.

1:00:02Rob Bonta:Because they weren't sure they could after the inauguration of Donald Trump. And they eventually want to come to America, her wife's Brazilian, I want to make sure there's a fair immigration policy and process, and they want to have a family someday. So I don't want their choices of who to love, where to live, if, when, and how to have a family to be taken away from them. And so that gives me motivation, it gives me passion, it gives me more energy when we're in these fights.

1:00:41Kate Shaw:Can I just say really candidly, it is so grim in Washington, D.C. right now, and an elected official who sounds like that is just such an incredible breath of fresh air. So thank you for reminding us that official public servants should sound like this. Thank you for governor.

1:01:02Kate Shaw:So, okay, maybe this is, you know, some of the last couple of answers you gave sort of stepped into this, but I'm going to maybe just ask explicitly. Things are grim, as I just referenced, at the federal level. I don't think we can downplay just how much damage that is going to be very hard to undo, how much damage has already been done at the federal level in just the year and change of this administration. But, you know, we try all the time to find things to put our energy into and places to sort of seize onto to find hope. And it sounds like there are lots of things that do that for you. But can you just talk a little bit for people who are finding it difficult right now, like that practice, like how you find sort of hope and places to put the rage and the kind of energy that a lot of us have right now.

1:01:53Rob Bonta:Yeah, for sure. You know, I am hardwired hopeful. I'm just hopeful. And I'm a glass half full guy. And why? So many things give me hope right now. My team at the California DOJ gives me hope. And they are here in the house, by the way. So those particularly loud cheers, I think, are from them. and they're some of the most committed, passionate, talented attorneys that I know. They do this for the work. They don't want the recognition. I want to recognize them. I want to thank them. I'm honored to be able to lead this office. I'm grateful that you're here, and shameless plug, we're hiring in our office, so if you want to be like them and join our team, we have our job postings online.

1:02:37Rob Bonta:My Democratic attorneys general give me hope. The fight that they show, the commitment, you know, like in Minnesota, to A.G. Ellison in the middle of the toughest fight, standing strong, holding his ground, speaking truth, that gives me hope. Law firms that fight and don't cave give me hope. My prior law firm, Kecker and Van Ness, is one of the ones who fought. So shout out to Kecker and Van Ness. judges who do their job and follow the law, follow the facts, and while fending off, you know, criticisms at their activist judges and their so-called judges and calls for their impeachment, but just do it and let the chips fall where they may.

1:03:23Rob Bonta:That gives me hope. All the elections since Trump was elected give me hope. The midterms, upcoming midterms give me hope. The Trump polling in the tank gives me hope. He's earned it. He deserves it. it's appropriate reflection of where he should be. The blue wave that's coming gives me hope.

1:03:42Melissa Murray:Say more about that.

1:03:45Rob Bonta:I mean, I got my crystal ball out today on Supreme Court rulings on what's going to happen. But, you know, folks with good values and who care about the people are going to be taken over. And the folks are, they are not happy with where we are. And that shows up empirically in all the polls. and I think that's what's going to happen in the upcoming election. So that's my hardwired hopeful part. But finally, I'll just say this. You, us, we, the people, give me hope when we show up, when we are engaged, when we know we have power, when we are not hopeless because we know we're not helpless, because we can do something about this moment and make tomorrow more fair than today, when we stay engaged, when we stay enraged about the abuses of power, and when we know that people power is the most potent power that there is in a democracy.

1:04:39Rob Bonta:The bosses of Donald Trump are not his billionaire buddies. They are not greedy corporations. They are you and me and us and we. And there are many chapters yet to be written in the story of the state, in the story of this country, and we are going to write them. We will choose what happens next. We will choose what happens tomorrow. And so that gives me hope. And when people show up in crowds, when they show courage, when they show up for no kings rallies and hands off rallies to demand something from their government and to refuse to accept the unacceptable, that all gives me hope. So I know that we're going to get through this.

1:05:23Rob Bonta:To me, it's inevitable. The one thing that is required is that we fight, is that we stay engaged. But if we do, I know we're going to be, we'll have a tomorrow that's more fair, more just, where the rule of law is intact, where we have separation of powers and rights and freedoms and checks and balances and all the things that our country is founded on because we fought for them. And every leader and every person is called to step up. sometimes the moment picks you you don't pick the moment and it is what you do in response so a room full of dedicated committed folks ready to fight knowing that we can have a better tomorrow that gives me hope and I'm grateful to be here with all of you

1:06:20Melissa Murray:that just warmed my cold jaded heart I think I'm going to I'm gonna go apply for a job at the we're ready no no no sorry general can't have her audience please give it up to Rob Bonta your A.T.

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1:09:02Kate Shaw:In moments like these, it's easy to feel overwhelmed and even easier to feel powerless. But we are neither. I'm Stacey Abrams, and on my podcast, Assembly Required, I take on each executive action, legislative battle, and breaking news moment by asking three questions. What's really happening? What can we do about it? And how do we keep going? together. This is a space for clarity, strategy, and hope rooted in action, not denial. New episodes of Assembly Required drop Tuesdays. Tune in wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.

1:09:46Leah Litman:Dare I say I feel hopeful? He is making the police power great again.

1:09:53Melissa Murray:that part where he said when he did things he was like how could I explain this to my children does DJT think about that how would I explain this to John Jr

1:10:02Kate Shaw:it feels like government service at the federal level has been so debased to be reminded about what it is

1:10:10Melissa Murray:that's what it should look like I feel like Kate wow that's not bad Melissa

1:10:18Leah Litman:it's okay it just feels so weird Let's bring you back.

1:10:23Melissa Murray:Okay.

1:10:24Leah Litman:And let's touch on some legal news. Oh, good.

1:10:27Melissa Murray:This will be bracing and sobering. Excellent. Okay. Okay. All right, folks. We have talked a lot on this podcast about the executive orders targeting the law firms. And as the attorney general noted, rather than settling with the administration, a few intrepid firms decided to challenge the orders. and the courts invalidated those orders in every single case in which they were challenged.

1:10:56Kate Shaw:You know, as the Attorney General reminded us, you can't win if you don't fight. So those that fought actually all won. Hmm.

1:11:04Melissa Murray:Anyway, well, friends, early last week, the Wall Street Journal reported that the Trump administration decided that it wasn't going to appeal those lower court rulings. The government even filed motions to dismiss the appeals.

1:11:20Leah Litman:And then, wait for it, JK! The New York Times reported that DOJ said backseize, and they filed a motion to withdraw the motion to voluntarily dismiss their appeals. The law firms unsurprisingly objected to DOJ's about face.

1:11:41Kate Shaw:So we actually don't know, and maybe we'll just talk through now, like what do we think happened? Like one possibility is the president just changed his mind after seeing kind of favorable coverage by places like the New York Times, praising the law firms that had challenged the orders targeting them. Another possibility is that the Solicitor General, who has to approve decisions about whether to appeal, initially made the decision to stand down and informed the court of that decision, and then the Attorney General or the White House Counsel overruled him. Those are possible. Regardless of the reason, this is all completely humiliating for the Department of Justice.

1:12:25Kate Shaw:They should be humiliated. Add it to the list.

1:12:29Leah Litman:This is just the tip, as they say.

1:12:34Kate Shaw:But, you know, honestly, kind of just another average workday at the Department of Justice of sort of debasing and humiliating yourself, but actually a little bit worse than your average day. This was bad.

1:12:44Melissa Murray:Yeah, agreed. Speaking of another humiliating workday at a different federal agency, we are delighted to announce we have a new nickname. The new nickname is Christy No More.

1:13:06Melissa Murray:Yes, beloved, Crispy Gnome is out at DHS. After Trump, after Trump ol' yellered her.

1:13:24Melissa Murray:So easy. What can I say folks? Karma is a bish poo.

1:13:34Melissa Murray:Anyway, the president announced on Truth Social, where else, that Gnome will become a quote-unquote special envoy to the shield of the Americas. And I was very surprised to learn that this is definitely a real thing and not part of the Marvel Universe. Of course to be very clear the shield of the Americas predictably is very villain forward. This is the regime's plan to occupy the entire western hemisphere and summarily execute people. So very very normal. Yeah you can be alarmed by it. It is alarming. But again this is a story of failing up and the best part of this failing up story was that when the truth social post announcing her ouster hit the interwebs, Christy No More was speaking at a press conference.

1:14:37Melissa Murray:And it was semi-unclear if she even knew at the time she was speaking that she had been fired. Awkward. But maybe this is exactly what a puppy murderer deserves.

1:14:57Melissa Murray:Justice for Cricket. Justice for Cricket.

1:15:01Leah Litman:Cricket is like, tell Christy, I want her to know it was me.

1:15:07Kate Shaw:Always you, Cricket. Yeah. Just to talk about that presser for a minute, at the press conference, Christine Nomore, misquoted, but actually misquoted, Orwell. Because reading. We have to give her credit. I mean, ending a tenure at DHS that was marked by vicious lies and carnage by misrepresenting Orwell is incredible, top-tier, legendary. You have to hand it to her.

1:15:40Leah Litman:Yeah. It gets better. Oh, yeah. Because Trump announced that he intends to nominate Senator Mark Wayne Mullen of Oklahoma to replace... No. Yep. No less evil. Probably dumber. Which is saying something. this is after all someone that is christina moore who was digmatized by cory lewandowski glad you appreciated that one uh anyways we thought we would take this opportunity to introduce you to the new nominee for secretary of homeland security sir this is a time this is a place

1:16:24Kate Shaw:you want to run your mouth we can be two consenting adults we can finish it here Okay, that's fine. Perfect. You want to do it now? I'd love to do it right now. Well, stand your butt up then. You stand your butt up. Oh, hold on. Oh, hold. Stop it. Is that your solution? No, no. Sit down.

1:16:39Rob Bonta:Sit down. No, no. You're a United States senator. Sit down.

1:16:43Leah Litman:Let them fight! Let them fight!

1:16:51Melissa Murray:This is a time. This is a place. I mean, of course. This is a man who has no space between his first and middle names. Of course. I will say, it is a little on the nose to pick an MMA fighter to be your secretary of Homeland Security.

1:17:13Kate Shaw:He actually was, right?

1:17:14Melissa Murray:Yeah, well, I mean, the record is debated. Some say he has a 5-0 undefeated record. Some say he's a 3-0 undefeated record. I want to know where the other two plays it. Like, just two are missing.

1:17:26Kate Shaw:like where what happened but he definitely fought yeah yeah and he won some he won some matches yeah so that clip for folks who hadn't seen it before is the witness testifying as teamsters president sean o 'brien um and then of course senator bernie sanders at the end shutting it down and you want to know what happened to jimmy hoffa like i mean that guy was not backing down um but i also this was not i don't think i mean the you know mma matches and suggest as much as well, but this was not necessarily like a one-off. So last week, Mullen had this to say about a time that Senator Rand Paul was assaulted by a neighbor of his.

1:18:03Kate Shaw:People might remember this from a few years back. So Secretary-designate Mullen said, quote, I understand completely why his neighbor did what he did. I told him, him being Paul, I told him that to his face. Okay, bad enough, but guess who the chair of the Senate Homeland Security Committee is? It's Rand Paul. But I mean, obviously it's funny, but also this is incredibly dark and disturbing because between that and Senator Tim Sheehy evidently breaking a Marine veteran protesters' arm last week, it does feel very Field of Blood, the wonderful Joanne Freeman book about actual physical... A moment in which the shedding of blood was commonplace in the United States Congress, it feels like we are inching back toward that very dark place rather, rather quickly.

1:18:53All right.

1:18:54Melissa Murray:Let's go back to Christine Noemore. Yeah. That was a great history lesson. Thank you. All right. In more tales of Christine Noemore, I just want to note that in what I am sure is a total coincidence, community peen Kori Lewandowski is also reportedly out at DHS.

1:19:22Melissa Murray:According to a statement, the two of them are going to, quote, spend more time with their families. Wink, wink. Monogamy for thee, but not for me.

1:19:37Leah Litman:I'm just going to call him Kori Lewandowski. future assistant to the special envoy for the shield of the Americas. In order to commemorate the departure of these two legends from DHS, we wanted to play this from now soon to be former Secretary Noemore's recent appearance before Congress.

1:20:05Kate Shaw:So, Secretary Noem, at any time during your tenure as Director of Department of Homeland Security, have you had sexual relations with Corey Lewandowski? Mr.

1:20:18Leah Litman:Chairman, I am shocked that we're going down and peddling tabloid garbage in this committee today.

1:20:23Kate Shaw:And, ma 'am, one thing that I would tell you is that he is a special government employee who works for the White House. There are thousands of them in the federal government. So reclaiming my time, Secretary, you should be able to answer the question clearly every single day. And without any hesitation. Every single day is to protect this country. If someone is asking if you or any federal official is sleeping with their subordinate, that should be the easiest. You should be wanting to answer that question.

1:20:56Kate Shaw:I love that someone in the audience shares my discomfort with that. We played it as we were getting ready for the show tonight. And I was hiding my face. I could not watch it. And I was thinking, there is a reason I don't watch reality television. I cannot handle that.

1:21:10Leah Litman:Her husband was behind her.

1:21:12Kate Shaw:That's part of the reason.

1:21:14Leah Litman:In case you missed it, one thing she didn't say in response to that question was no. She did not deny the allegations and she was repeatedly asked. She's never beating these charges. She's repeatedly asked to do so. But more seriously, inject this into my veins. This is a reminder that accountability is possible, that the Trump regime is weaker than they pretend they are, and that good things can happen when people and Democratic leaders decide to hold alleged perfidious adulterers to account. Yeah. I feel hopeful. Yeah. And this seems about as good a time as any to get to our favorite things.

1:22:12All right.

1:22:12Kate Shaw:So we've got a couple to share with you. One is something I'm going to just read a couple of lines from. It's a judicial order, actually, in a habeas case from West Virginia late last month that we haven't had a chance to mention on the show. And I just wanted to read a couple of sentences from it because I think it kind of crystallizes this moment maybe better than any judicial opinion that I've read so far. So here is what this district court judge wrote. Quote, Across the interior of the United States, agents of the federal government, masked, anonymous, armed with military weapons, operating from unmarked vehicles, acting without warrants of any kind, are seizing persons and imprisoning them without any semblance of due process.

1:22:49Kate Shaw:The systematic character of this practice and its deliberate elimination of every structural feature that distinguishes constitutional authority from raw force place it beyond the reach of ordinary legal description. so there's more but I just think that so beautifully crystallizes why it is so hard as we've said many times to kind of talk accurately about what's happening right now and not sound like a crazy person because the assault is so profound and unremitting on the very idea of law and the constitutional order that yeah you sound unhinged if you just calmly describe it and I think that this judge did a beautiful job of not sounding unhinged calmly describing the flagrant violations of specific constitutional violations and the idea of a constitution without sounding unhinged.

1:23:36Kate Shaw:So I really salute that judge, and I wanted to share it with you.

1:23:43Kate Shaw:And then briefly, a handful of listeners that I've met recently. I was at Harvard Law School a couple of weeks ago, and I wanted to say hello to Jenna, Fee, Lucia, Taylor, Hannah, Jennifer, and the rest of the wonderful group I talked to at the Harvard Law Review. Thanks so much for listening.

1:23:59Leah Litman:So on my favorite things is the recent announcement of the continuation of the Moss verse. So Sarah Moss announced new books in the Court of Thorns and Roses series. And I am so excited. So excited. Not as excited as I am about another forthcoming book. We are about two months away from the release of Melissa Murray's book.

1:24:35Leah Litman:The U.S. Constitution, a comprehensive and annotated guide for the modern reader. I also have some personal shout outs. Wanted to shout out some guests in the audience. So A.G. Bonta mentioned that there are lawyers here from California DOJ, wanted to give a special shout out to California DOJ's Reproductive Justice Unit.

1:25:11Leah Litman:and to at least one aspiring lawyer in the audience, Maya. I know this shout out isn't as exciting as getting one from Justice Sotomayor, but this one's for you and you can thank your dad, Jonathan, for the heads up.

1:25:32Melissa Murray:So I am also very excited that the book is coming out in two months. I'm excited. Me and my co-author, James Madison, are just really, really excited. No one is more surprised than James Madison than I am his co-author. Never saw it coming. Truly. This week, I was on the road a lot. I was in Iowa at the beginning of the week, and I hung out with some really fantastic stricties at Drake Law School. Melissa, Anu, and Andrea. Thank you so much for the warm welcome to Iowa. It's fantastic. But I would be remiss if I didn't say that my absolute favorite thing this week is that my travels have taken me right here to one of my absolute favorite places, the Bay Area.

1:26:23Melissa Murray:And this amazing Bay Area weather, because it sucks in New York right now. Absolutely sucks. There are some other real highlights of this trip that I want to highlight. First, this morning, one of my favorite things was when Kate reported that she saw her first penis pump in the tenderloin.

1:26:48Kate Shaw:It was like 11 o 'clock in the morning. It's always at 11 o 'clock in the morning, Kate.

1:26:54Melissa Murray:Never change, San Francisco. Seriously folks, it's so great to be home in the Bay. I was in Oakland this morning. Love you Oakland.

1:27:09Melissa Murray:I want to shout out my Berkeley Law, former colleagues, always colleagues who are in the audience tonight, and my homies from our dance floor in Albany, California who are here tonight as well.

1:27:24Melissa Murray:We're Strict Scrutiny, and we love you, West Coast!

1:27:51Kate Shaw:Guild of America East. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to Strict Scrutiny in your favorite podcast app and on YouTube at Strict Scrutiny Podcast so you never miss an episode. And if you want to help other people find the show, please rate and review us. It really helps.

1:28:11Kate Shaw:In moments like these, it's easy to feel overwhelmed and even easier to feel powerless. but we are neither. I'm Stacey Abrams and on my podcast, Assembly Required, I take on each executive action, legislative battle and breaking news moment by asking three questions. What's really happening? What can we do about it? And how do we keep going together? This is a space for clarity, strategy and hope rooted in action, not denial. New episodes of Assembly Required drop Tuesdays. Tune in wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.