How Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe and Rhiannon Joyce landed their dream roles

18:19Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:Yeah, that's a great question, Mads. I don't think social media has helped the industry because people expect to have their dream jobs straight away. And I do think that's a byproduct of, you know, everyone showcasing what they're doing in their day-to-day workplace environment and that comparison piece and people thinking, oh, I want to be doing something that's cool like that. Or my first job has to look this way. Most people's first jobs don't. And I do want to manage expectations with that. It's important that you step into a role that can just open a door or maybe just expose you to a part of the industry, not the whole industry.

18:57Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:And it's probably not for me. It exposed me to a part of the industry, but then I had to take it upon myself to really expand my exposure outside of that. And one thing I did take away from my first job was because it was so niche and out of home, I had to understand the broader media mix and the role of each channel. So I really did my own research and had to understand what is the role of TV versus digital versus out of home? Where do we sit in this bigger media landscape? Because the reality of it was we were also pitching for share. And when I say share, I mean investment from other channels.

19:34Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:We're trying to steal money from other channels and put it in out of home. So you have to broaden your media knowledge in order for you to do that and be quite savvy and understanding what doesn't work in TV works in out of home and building a strategy around that. So my advice to people who are in roles that perhaps aren't the sexiest early on is create more work for yourself to broaden your skill set and your exposure so that you can step out of that role. And I think that's what I did really well, particularly in the early days.

20:01Rhiannon Joyce:I mean, great segue while you're talking media, because I left Mecca from the assistant brand manager role working in private label to actually go to FMCG, where media is king. Media is king. It's amazing we never crossed over. No. I moved into FMCG, as I mentioned, which for anyone who doesn't know, FMCG stands for fast-moving consumer goods. So anything from like a dove body soap to Vegemite, which... If you see it in a supermarket, it's pretty much FMCG. It's an FMCG. So speaking of Vegemite, that was actually the brand I worked on. And let me tell you, you want to talk glam to unglam? Go from Lip Deluscious to Yeast Spread because that is basically what it was.

20:41Rhiannon Joyce:but I was so comfortable at Mecca and I think the underlying theme that I've had within my career is that I really like being uncomfortable and I really like pushing the boundaries. I knew I could work at Mecca for 10 years. I adored everyone I worked with. I loved that business. Leaving was honestly like a breakup and I went to Bega because I was like this is unsexy. This is a big business. This is an industry I have no right being in. And also, I want to challenge myself to go, can you market something to the masses? So I went to FMCG, ended up at Bega, who had actually just acquired a Mondelez section of the business, which was spreads.

21:31Rhiannon Joyce:So cream cheese, just the sexy trio. It was the best decision I ever made for my career. One, I got a pay rise, which at that time was really, really quite wonderful. Especially in the early days. But it was where I learned rigor and structure and marketing science and principles. Mecca, everything was done within Mecca. So I worried about my brand within my retailer. Suddenly, I had to worry about whether Coles and Woolies were going to take my MPD, new product development for those playing along at home. But yeah, it taught me so much. And it was big budgets that we were playing with. A brand like Vegemite, the year that I started, we turned 95.

22:10Rhiannon Joyce:So it was the complete opposite of what I'd been doing. It was how do you deal with heritage brand? How do you interact with a brand that everyone feels they have a little bit of ownership of that's polarizing for a very culturally diverse Australia? But you're also trying to build, you know, market share and introduce new customers to it. The most fun I've ever had and what it taught me was you don't need to be passionate about the product or industry. You have to be passionate about what you're doing. And I became obsessed with Vegemite. And that is not something I thought I would say in this lifetime.

22:45Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:Sometimes working on the Unsexy brand does give you more exposure as well. 100%. And more opportunities and more ownership. That's the other thing. You have more space to be autonomous and make bigger decisions than you would if you were working on the most popular brand or the most profitable brand. Sometimes that comes with the most red tape.

23:04Rhiannon Joyce:I agree. And I also believe you get the most respect. And I don't use that language lightly, but the ability to be able to do the hard things and work on the tough topics is important. Definitely. What was your next one, Riri?

23:18Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:Oh, guys, I didn't leave out of home. I stayed. She just loved bus stops. Oh, I did love bus stops so much. But I will be honest, J.C. Deco, Jean-Francois Deco, if he heard you say the word bus stops, he would be furious because we actually call it street furniture. And I know that sounds silly, but what I'm going to jump ahead to is my lesson, which J.C. Deco taught me, is the power of language. Yeah. and how important language is when it comes to selling a product. So my first job at JC Deco was a sales manager role. For those of you who don't know, JC Deco is actually the largest out of home company in the world.

24:00Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:When I stepped into this role at JC Deco, it was a sales position. It was a sales manager role working across a agency patch in Victoria. So agencies essentially are hired as a third party to represent clients to buy media. So some of the agencies I worked on, again, representing very big blue chip brands, but also some smaller brands as well. So the depth of the work that I had was quite vast. What I loved about JC Deco, I had exposure to them in my previous role. I dealt with a lot of the sales reps there and I just loved how they would show up to meetings. They all looked incredibly polished.

24:40Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:They all were incredibly knowledgeable and very research driven when it came to their pitches and their recommendations. And I was quite intrigued by that. I was intrigued by their uniform brand position in market and how polished and presented they were. I really wanted to work there. And coming back to my point earlier, my good family friend, Dean Kady, was the head of sales in Victoria and I was badgering him for a role. But the team was incredibly small. They only had two reps in Victoria representing the whole market. One of those reps had decided to move overseas. Shout out to Brad, who was also one of my very good friends.

25:24Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:Sat next to him at your wedding. We had a great time. So Brad made the choice to move to London and a position opened up and I basically stormed Dean's office. I called him pretty much every day saying, I need this role. I really want to work for this company, he was really adamant that I shouldn't. He was very conscious of me being further pigeonholed into sales. But I had a really innate interest into sales. As I touched on earlier, I loved presenting. I loved storytelling and I loved JC Deco as a brand. So I felt that that was a recipe for success. I did interview for the role, three interviews.

26:04Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:And even by the end, I think Dean was like, I really don't want to give you this job. But unfortunately for him, the high powers had decided that I was the right candidate. So I got that role and I worked at JC Deco for four years. It was the best job in my twenties and I'm so glad I worked there. And what JC Deco taught me has been the foundation for the success of my role at Shameless and I'll get to that later on. But I want to come back to my point around the power of language and the power of brand because JC Deco taught me that one, you don't have to have a sexy product to be able to sell it in a way that's meaningful.

26:41Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:Jean-Claude Deco, the founder of Street Furniture, not bus stops, really believed in architecture, language, how to tell storytelling. And although we weren't selling anything that was, you know, changing the world, they really instilled in their brand that what we did had some meaning. It's obviously not saving lives or anything, but every day I showed up and I actually believed in what I was selling. I definitely drank the Kool-Aid. Yeah. And little things like, I'll give you some examples of the power of language. So when we would sell, let's say something was on sale. So we had a short-term offer.

27:22Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:A lot of the language in market people would say a distressed offer. So it's discounted heavily. We weren't allowed to say that. We had to say short term. Yeah. So things like that. And it sounds so - A good test and trial. Yes. And it sounds so silly. And again, bus stops, street furniture, it's a collective term for, because it's not just bus stops, it's bus stops, tram stops, it's panels in train stations. So street furniture is the collective term that we use. Another one was we, out of home, we weren't allowed to say outdoor. So a lot of people say outdoor when they're describing out of home.

27:59Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:We weren't allowed to say that. It was out of home. So this all sounds ridiculous when I'm saying it on mic, but I can't stress enough how much that power of language has influenced how I communicate with people, how you are as a salesperson and how that positions you in market. It also elevates your brand. And we were really big on believing that our brand was elevated based on the locations of our assets, the type of audience that we would reach. JC Deco was also a very, very data-driven company. And that's where my interest in data and marketing really peaked. I loved the exposure to other areas of the business.

28:35Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:The marketing team at JC Deco probably thought I was so annoying as a sales rep because I would honestly schedule my own meetings outside of the general presentations that they would have to pitch to show us the studies that we then had to take to market. I would go out of my way to sit down with, you know, the head of insights. And I would ask question after question to really understand the details of what we were presenting, but also the why behind it, because understanding our audience and understanding that why was what made me a better rep. But it also served this desire and interest I had in marketing that I couldn't get in my role.

29:11Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:So I really loved that added exposure to consumer data, to the marketing team. And I went out of my way to incorporate that into my day to day job. for no reward other than that's just what I liked and I was interested in. That's a lesson I would share with those listening today. Just because you're in, let's say, a sales role or something that feels really specific and niche doesn't mean that you can't expose yourself to other areas of the business. And you've touched on this as well, Mads. Absolutely. There is a scope for you to do that.

29:39Rhiannon Joyce:I really feel passionately about this. And the best piece of advice I got from the general manager of Bega was you don't need to be an expert in everything, but you need to understand enough and go into different corners of the business. You think, you know, supply chain doesn't affect you or you think that insights team might not be relevant because they can input the slide straight into your deck and you don't have to think twice. You want to be able to read the language, walk the walk and be able to talk the talk so that if for some reason you are asked a question or someone is away or sick or not in the room with you, that you have enough intel and enough knowledge that you can speak to it.

30:17Rhiannon Joyce:Doesn't mean you have to be an expert. You don't need to have all the answers, but it's the best advice I've probably ever been given.

30:24Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:It's an interesting segue for me to something that I really wanted to talk about on the podcast today was also building your knowledge pool outside of your nine to five job. Simultaneously, when I was at JC Deco, I was really lucky that they offered a lot of external training and exposure to negotiation training, leadership training, also mini MBAs. We were given a lot of resources outside of the four walls of JC to co to upskill. But I would encourage a lot of people to also seek that out on your own. I did want to share some really helpful resources that you can tap into if you are someone who's looking to, you know, upskill and expose yourself to other areas of the industry that you're not focusing on in your job right now.

31:08Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:So some of my favorite places to start. Aesthetic Intelligence by Pauline Brown. I've actually recommended this on the Stylish Weekly Picks in the past. It's an audio book available in Australia. It is really hard to get the physical copy because it's quite an old book. But Pauline Brown has immense experience working for LVMH. Moet Shandon, she is incredible at understanding the power of brand, again, the power of language as well. So if anything that I said around what I learned at Jay Sidokovas of interest, I would definitely recommend reading Aesthetic Intelligence or listening to it. Simon Sinek, who anyone who works in advertising, media, marketing, has probably heard his name before.

31:46Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:He is the author of Start With Why. And we bang on about the why at Shameless Media. I think you'd be pressed to step into this office and not hear one of the senior leadership team refer to the why. Incredible resource that I definitely recommend. And it helps you really broaden your thought process and how you show up every day, pulls you out of the weeds and makes you think about shock. Yeah.

32:07Rhiannon Joyce:The why. And zoom out. Zoom out. It's not what you're doing. It's why you're doing it. Correct. Because a lot of the what will fall out of that. It's also, side note, a beautiful exercise to do for your personal life as well. It is, yes. What's your why as a human?

32:21Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:It definitely is. The third and final one I want to recommend is the Mini MBA by Mark Ritson. And again, if you're in advertising, you've probably heard Mark Ritson's names. He's quite a colourful character. Yes. I would say very opinionated, has some really interesting think pieces and has immense experience, again, working for various luxury and blue chip brands. But that is a course that you can do if you're wanting to really expand your skill set and your exposure in marketing and media and really do a bit more of a strategic deep dive. So I would definitely recommend checking those out.

32:59Rhiannon Joyce:So you're probably wondering where and how we got to today. And I feel that it's really important we've spent a lot of our time talking about the infancies of our careers because foundation is everything. And I think now that we intro where we are now, you'll understand why that has been so important. We've got to take you on the journey. We've got to take you on the journey. So for me, I stayed within FMCG. I went and worked at Chobani for a period in a senior brand manager role. I ended up looking after communications, marketing for a very brief period in that promotion and actually was invited to a breakfast with a woman who I owe so much to, who has been an incredible mentor in my life, Marita Burke from Mecca, who was like, I'd love to catch up and had someone in my life who said, I don't think you should go for breakfast because you'll probably leave with a job and I didn't leave with a job.

33:49Rhiannon Joyce:I did have to go for the interviews, but I did go back to Mecca And I went back to Mecca because I had what I would call a once in a lifetime opportunity to go and launch a brand for Mecca. And that brand was Kit. And that was the experience of a lifetime. I love that brand. I adore it. I saw every corner of that business from supply chain to creating tone of voice to building a website to setting up a D2C because we had our own website to three-year innovation pipeline strategies, building the P &L, managing the P &L. And then my final role at Mecca was looking after the makeup category as senior category marketing manager.

34:31Rhiannon Joyce:And for anyone who's listened to Inherited, you would know that I had a little bit of a light bulb moment and left Mecca, which was my dream job, stable, fantastic, adored it to start my own consulting agency, because I ultimately wanted to do what I had done on Kit. Now I run Dom Street, which is, it feels ridiculous to call it a consulting agency, to be honest, because it is just me and I am a consultant. And I adore all of you who DM me, but I do not want to hire anyone. I have zero desire to hire anyone. You're still in the building phase. I'm totally in the building phase. I don't know that I ever want to get out of the building phase either.

35:11Rhiannon Joyce:I love boutique one-on-one and I am obsessed with spending time with brand founders. Transparently, I'm working on my own brand. So anytime that I can spend with brand founders and C-suite, there is something for me to learn as much as there is for me to offer my expertise to that brand. So as I mentioned, I work directly with the founders and C-suite. And I guess I sit at the intersection of strategy, brand storytelling and execution. And that can be across anything from creating tone of voice, a three-year marketing strategy to international marketing expansion. And what I have learned is no client has a strategy that even remotely emulates the other.

35:54Rhiannon Joyce:Anyone that tells you there is a formula is a liar. There you go. Mic drop. She said it. But it's taught me so much. It's taught me to back myself for starters. It's a really scary decision to go out on your own and not one to take lightly. It's also taught me that you need to hold and care for those clients, but also remember that it is ultimately their business. You are there to advise and the action that they choose to take is entirely theirs. And also the most like heartbreaking and heartwarming part about being a consultant is that successful consultancy is the relationship ending.

36:30Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:I was just thinking that it's almost, it's sad because you're not with them forever. No.

36:35Rhiannon Joyce:And it's been really hard seeing projects sort of come to a close after working with a brand for seven, eight months, working on projects and them going, thank you so much. Because either what they've learned is, because either what happens is the project comes to a close or they learn that they need a full-time hire. And it is much cheaper to hire a full-time than continue with a part-time consultant. That is the reality of consultancy. You're generally short to midterm and you're charging a higher fee than bringing on someone full time. And that also has benefits for a business. They don't have to worry about annual leave, sick leave, all of those things.

37:12Rhiannon Joyce:They can end it whenever they want. There's a lot of flexibility. It works and benefits both parties. But that has been something that I've learned and learning to work with different markets and retailers and environments. It's been a hell

37:28Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:a ride. That's the coolest thing I've seen watching you go through this journey. It hasn't been very long, but already the exposure you've had to working with international brands as well, various brands across different categories. Obviously you have immense experience in FMCG, beauty, but you know, you're not limited to that. And it's really great to see how transferable your skills have been to help other businesses and brands and mads. Fucking good on you for doing it because a lot of people would not take the step in leaving the four walls of a very established, secure role to go out on their own.

38:05Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:So kudos to you.

38:06Rhiannon Joyce:And I love watching you. And Rhi, you spend a lot more time in Shameless than just in this little chair in this podcast studio now. I do.

38:15Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:What is your role? My current role is the head of business development at Shameless Media. It is by definition, according to Rhiannon Joyce, myself, my dream role. I am so, so happy where I am in my career. I did just celebrate five years at Shameless on, thank you, last Sunday. And I have been reflecting a lot on the last five years because when I first started out at Shameless, I was the marketing and partnerships director. I was given the opportunity to step into that role through a connection. A client I had worked with at Jay Citico and had a very good relationship was equally working with Michelle and Zara on a potential campaign.

38:59Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:That campaign did not come off. But then I had connected with Michelle and Zara through that relationship. So we didn't have an immediate job or opportunity to come up. It was more so, hey, nice to meet you. Had a bit of a chat at this industry event and then nothing happened. Six months later, I had a random email in my inbox from Zara McDonald saying, hey, bit random. We'd love to catch up for a coffee. We've got an idea that we want to run by you. Zara McDonald and the elusive emails. I've also had one of those. Yeah, yeah. It was textbook zazz. I was like, oh, interesting. I did meet with the girls.

39:36Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:And basically from that point on, I was like, I need to leave this job and I need to take on this opportunity. Can I ask you something in that? Was it gut or was it head that told you to go? Gut, 100%. Yeah. Don't get me wrong though. Missions are I can pitch the hell out of anything. So there was not a doubt in my mind that what they were trying to build wasn't going to be successful. Yeah. So that is the headpiece in the sense that you trust people who are switched on and know what they're doing. And it was a no brainer. The gut piece for me was leaving a job that I really loved. And I'd just been promoted to a group sales manager.

40:11Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:And I was the youngest group sales manager at JCCO. I was 26, managing a team of four. and that was the job I was working towards and wanted so bad. And I had it for three months when this opportunity came up. So the gut piece for me was more about leaving a role that I really was so proud to be in at a company that I absolutely loved, rejecting a traditional hierarchy to go into a startup environment, not have a single employee build something from the ground up. The gut piece for me was that is where I'm going to be able to build something that's meaningful. and those opportunities do not come by very often.

40:46Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:And the gut piece for me was I have to take this opportunity because if I don't, it's not going to come up again. And yes, I might still be successful in that traditional trajectory of media and build my way up to yada, yada, yada, but I don't think it would have been as fulfilling as what I'm doing right now. So I stepped into that role. I was the first full-time employee at Shameless Media. Belly at that point was working part-time as a producer. I was essentially responsible for building Shameless Media as a business and establishing our representation in the media landscape. So at that point, the missions are constantly being referred to as influencers and we're really trying to reject that notion.

41:24Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:So it was my job to come in and establish Shameless Media as a network. This is where I took all the learnings from JC Deco about the power of brand, the power of language. And I applied that to Shameless and basically built our business model with Mission Zara on how we wanted to sell the advertising across Shameless and the Shameless Book Club. I'm going to skip a bit because it's a long five years, but essentially the first year was a huge success. We grew Shameless podcast ad revenue by 182%. We hired three people within the first two years, predominantly in the partnerships team. And we were just going from strength to strength.

42:03Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:Fast forward to now, I would say the biggest difference about what I do now versus what I did then was I was very autonomous. I was very much the jack of all trades doing everything across partnerships. I did the investment schedules. I did the props. I did the post-campaign reports. I got dirty. My hands got dirty and I did everything and I didn't complain about it. The other thing I want to just quickly add as well, I took a pay cut to come to Shameless Media and I don't think I've actually told a lot of people this. But again, that comes back to my point earlier around trusting your gut and taking an opportunity that you know is going to be long term, something that really fulfills you.

42:39Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:So it's like buying a stock.

42:40Rhiannon Joyce:Correct. And you've got to feel confident in it. But I think that's such a great point, Re, to bring up. Sometimes what feels right or is going to help you in the long run is not always short term. Short term is not always the most.

42:55Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:It's not instant gratification. I'm getting the biggest salary. It is that long term play. So, yeah, fast forward to now. I have a team of six who do manage all the partnerships across Shameless Media. I'm less in the day to day, so I'm not getting my hands dirty as much. I still can when I need to. I have more of an overarching support for the partnerships team. I work very closely with Mission Zara on the long-term strategy for our business. So if we are launching a new podcast, what does it look, feel, sound like, but also how are we going to be able to commercialize that product in a way where it can stand the test of time?

43:30Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:You know, we're not a fast fashion podcast house. We want to make sure any product that we launch has longevity. So it's my job to make sure that it is a commercially viable product so that we can sell it and we can continue to, you know, operate the business as we do and pay salaries, push the content out that we want. And I would say as well, the biggest difference in my job right now is it is very marketing focused. I've been able to take that passion and that interest of data that I've had throughout my whole journey. And now I get to do that. I work closely with Starburst Insights, really building out research studies to understand the consumer.

44:05Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:Why do you listen to Shameless? Why do you listen to Stylish? Where do you live? What are you doing? What do you like eating for dinner? Seriously, all of that insight so that we can make better content and make better decisions around how, who we work with as well from a partnership's perspective.

44:23Rhiannon Joyce:So it's been fascinating watching your career. And as we mentioned, we've had many sliding door moments, but I remember very early days, Mecca Max sponsoring Everybody Has a Secret and hearing rave reviews about Rhi. and hilariously a lot of people who had met Rhi saying, you two are very similar. You guys should probably meet. And then when we did eventually meet, I was enamoured by Rhi because anyone sitting on the outside who, you know, I was a shameless listener but also having a keen interest in brand and any successful Australian business or brand and I would say a passion for female founded Australian brand, I was watching from the outside going, holy shit, This is a behemoth.

45:10Rhiannon Joyce:It has been an absolute pleasure as an outsider and then, you know, in the last sort of 18, 24 months, becoming an insider of seeing what you guys have created and you being a big cog in that wheel has just been like an absolute joy. Don't cry. We don't do emotional.

45:30Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:No, that's very nice of you to say. And as I said, this is very much my dream job, but I'm so lucky. My team is getting bigger and bigger. I think we're seven now, which is crazy.

45:39Rhiannon Joyce:And your role is getting bigger now. Add host to head of business development and host of Fortnally episode of Stylish. I know. And I'm so happy to be here. That takes us to the end of our first ever episode of Stylish where we're focusing on brand marketing. We promise we won't be so self-indulgent next episode. This is just to lay the foundation of who we are so you know our experience and expertise. But thank you very much, Rhiannon Joyce. Well done on your first ever official episode.

46:04Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:No, I'm so glad we've been able to have this conversation because as you said in the first part of the episode, Mads, we are inundated with messages about tell us about your career journey. How did you get here? And it's really hard to capture that in a story set or a question box or a TikTok. Or a coffee. A coffee. So I do agree. Maybe it's been a little bit self-indulgent, but I hope it's been really helpful and insightful to all those people out there who have reached out and asked us those questions. And again, it's just laying the foundation for why we're sitting here and can continue to have great conversations with you guys about brand.

46:41Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:So I'm so excited for the next episode.

46:44Rhiannon Joyce:Me too. And you can drop us an email anytime. It's the same email as always, which is style-ish at shamelessmedia.com.au. Or you can slide into our DMs over at stylishpod. If there's a campaign you see or a brand you're loving that you'd love for us to dissect or maybe someone you'd want us to interview, please let us know. But as always, we want to thank our team, Head of Podcast Lucy Hunt and Senior Podcast Producer Kate Emma Burke. We'll see you in a fortnight. See you guys. Let's go get a wine.

47:21Maddison Sullivan-Thorpe:This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land.