What The Devil Wears Prada got wrong about fashion girls

0:15This is Stylish, the podcast for all things fashion, brand, business and beauty. My name is Madison Sullivan-Thaw. My co-hosts today are Annika Joshi-Smith and Joanna Fleming. Hello. Happy Wednesday. Happy Wednesday. Happy Wednesday, ladies. I'm bloody fantastic. How are you guys? How's the recovery post New York? Recovery post New York has been quite the humbling experience. I've got to say having three olives, perhaps with a side of a martini, is something that I do miss having on a random Wednesday. The post-holiday come down, it's a harsh reality. It is. It's definitely real. But I'm going away for a dear friend's wedding next month, so I'm super excited for that.

0:57Where are we going? Florence. I know. Very jealous. Something quite romantic about Florence. Oh, my goodness. Watch the space. Well, you know, your words, not mine. Did you guys see the Australian brand, the body care brand, Ooni, received investment from L 'Oreal last week? No, I didn't. huge so uni is an australian body care brand they're in mecca aren't they they are yeah they launched earlier this year they were created by alexandra keating who fun fact is actually ex-prime minister paul keating's daughter oh but she's created this body care brand and l 'oreal have invested to enable her to launch into all alta stores in the u.s whoa that is amazing over 800 stores wow wow this is a massive deal for an australian body care brand yeah also fascinated by what this means in the body care space i mean there's no denying we've had the likes of sol de janeiro just blow up over the last few years was also super surprised when i went to the states salt and stone seems to just be everywhere and then uk pr agency dominique templeton dt consulting who are kind of like the creme de la creme of pr in the uk like they've got Road, they've got Tower 28, Merit, it's a cool brand, they've got it, have also just taken on Salt and Stone.

2:17But I'm getting sidetracked here because my point is that L 'Oreal clearly are investing in the body care space, most recently with Uni, but then also obviously the Mammoth deal last year with ESOP. Huge. So I'm intrigued to see kind of what's going on. L 'Oreal don't seem to be slowing on the investment front and are investing clearly heavily in body care. Yeah. Also, they talk on Medicaid. Yeah. So just in general, they seem to have cash. Just investing full stuff. Yeah. Which is interesting because there was headlines recently about Shiseido laying off a number of staff. Yes. And they apparently said that that was following a 14.5 % sales drop in the Americas during Q1 2025.

2:58And that was because of a 60 % slump in sales of its Drunk Elephant brand. Yeah. Which obviously we know used to be huge. Yeah. But is that still significantly declining in popularity with the likes of things like Rode becoming so much more popular? Yeah. And also we've had other competitive brands in that space like Glow Recipe that are playing in actives in a really sort of fun packaged up way. For anyone who doesn't know Shiseido is the parent company that owns Drunk Elephant as Jo mentioned but they also have NARS and recently acquired Dr. Dennis Gross as well. So it's kind of a tale of two big parent companies at the moment.

3:38You could even put Estee Lauder in that Shiseido space too because they had layoffs and they've reported massive downward turn in the last few years. I think we're seeing a real juxtaposition in the beauty space. You've then got Elf investing a billion dollars in Rode. Very interesting. Says a lot about our favourite brands and who's winning and who's not. It does. I do want to wear this kind of leads us in five years as well in the beauty space. Like is L 'Oreal going to own every brand? Because it feels that way. I mean maybe and maybe else. All right well today we're going to be talking about the return of Estee Laundry, one of our favorite Instagram accounts.

4:17Princess Polly's surprising and also confusing B Corp certification. How people in fashion actually dress and opinions please is back. This time we're answering a listener's dilemma about what shoes to pack for a Euro trip, which I'm sure a lot of people will be grateful for because it seems like everyone and their dog is in Europe at the moment. But first, what are we swapping in this week? Okay, well, I guess can I take my number one spot back here, ladies? Yes, you can. Okay, thank you so much. Go back to the rightful rank. Well, I am going to swap in today someone who I just find undeniably so incredibly cool, and she also heads up at a really cool account called Diet Paratha.

4:53So, Anita Chiba, she is a fellow Kiwi and fellow Indian. And I am honestly just so in awe of this girl and her talent. She is just so creative. And I think something I've admired about her for a while now is she used to work in the media landscape and she really noticed a lack of representation and South Asian representation across like westernized media. And I think growing up in New Zealand, you didn't really notice like, I guess, too much about people of color being in the media or looking to media and seeing, I guess, people who resonated with me specifically. And she noticed that and she's really kind of made sure that she's created a platform, a creative space, and now a creative agency as well that just heroes and spotlights and powers uplifts South Asian talent.

5:41And she is honestly remarkable. She started this, I think, in 2017. And she's now been featured in Vogue so many times. She is just literally doing everything to support her culture. And And she's really created this incredible community that just backs, supports and empowers everyone, I think, of color as well. And I think it's just really important during a time now where diversity, inclusivity is so important. We talk about it all the time on the pod. And I just love everything that she's doing. So if you want to be inspired by someone, honestly, her creative vision, like her home styling, everything about this girl is just fucking cool.

6:16So give her a follow if you want to be inspired. Sounds like someone I want to follow. We'll make sure that that link is in the episode notes as well. Like her style, everything about her, like she is just so cool. She makes me look so fucking basic. And that's quite a challenge. Jo, what's yours? My swap is actually around bridal nails. So I am now on the journey being four months out from my wedding of solidifying the bridal nail. Yeah, I know it's flown. It's crazy. It's like around the corner. Oh my goodness, I might get to it. I'm on the journey of finding the right bridal nail. At the moment, I do not have bridal nails on.

6:54I have burgundy nails. But the last time I got my nails done, I asked my Instagram audience what the best bridal nail was because when I went in to go and get my nails done, I was like, oh, there's, I don't know which colours can be right and then I don't want to have that on my nails for a month because I leave it four weeks. It's like, oh, I really want to be sure of it. You leave them on for four weeks. Yeah. Same. Do you not? I have to go every two. Why? I'm like fully outgrown. Are you taking it? Are there supplements of some description that we're not? I mean, mine are grown out, but I just leave them that way.

7:23Maybe my genes need to be studied. My hair and nails both grow very quickly. Okay, well, sorry we can't all be perfect. I am a deeply flawed individual. That's probably all I've got going. Well, so I asked my audience about their best bridal nail shades and I wanted to share them with the future brides that are listening to this podcast. So the most popular suggestions were the gel bottle Dolly, Demure, Grace and Ballet which are Builder in a Bottle shades the other option is to have shellac on top of Builder in a Bottle or you could just get shellac on its own I at the moment have shellac over the top of Builder Gel so you could have OPI Love is in the Bear Bubble Bath or put it in neutral over the top of Biab or you could have that by itself so they were the most popular ones Mads I'm looking at you I feel like you recently seen something on your Instagram as well.

8:17What is that combo? My go-to neutral for the longest time, like years, was two coats Funny Bunny, one coat Bubble Bath. I think somebody did also say that. I feel like that's the OG. Too opaque, too transparent. Or if I wanted a touch of it without it being as transparent as just Bubble Bath, I would do one coat Funny Bunny, which is kind of like a milky pink. It's got a base to it. And then two coats of Bubble Bath. I think that's what I did. I think. I can't remember now. But yeah, when I saw that in your notes, I was like, those are the colors. I'm going to try a French tip at my next appointment with one of those shades underneath.

8:55And then my next appointment, I'll do a different one and I'm going to take notes on them. Someone sent me like a screenshot of their notes app and was like, this was me at every appointment for six months out of my wedding. And I tried all different shades and wrote notes about it. I'm like that. That's my kind of person. Yeah. Yeah. I think her and Miranda would get on. Yes. Miranda's can the packing hat. Absolutely. Yeah. So that's mine. What's yours? Do you know I was actually going to swap in something completely different. Then I remembered what I bought during the week and just absolutely loved.

9:21So you guys know that I love the hourglass 1.5 millimeter mechanical eyeliner for my inner lash line. But the top of my eyeliner at the moment, sometimes I'm just feeling like that's a touch too intense. So I still tight line with my hourglass. But when I was away in New York, my girlfriend, Bec, was using this eyeliner and I was like, I really like it. It's almost like it's like an old school crayon style, but it's in a proper a pencil you got to sharpen it vibe so it's from westman atelier and it only comes in black and chocolate and i got the chocolate and it's so easy to smudge like i'm not using a brush it's literally just with my finger and my little tip is to get the pencil go round and round almost like just in a little circle in the corner of your eye and then just with your index finger pull out for a little liner isn't that what you did the other day i did and everyone was like you you look sexy.

10:10You look mysterious. And I was like, I used my finger. Yeah. And it works every time. And it's like the perfect way to make sure they're symmetrical. But it's really nice and soft. I didn't use it today. I've got the 1.5 millimeter. I know. I'm so blinded. I'm trying to zoom in on you right now. I'm so sorry. I've let you all down. But absolutely love it. Okay. Yeah. That's mine. Thank you. Love that one. Thank you very much. I'll be adding to Kat. I did buy that Charlotte Tilbury eyeliner that you told us to buy. Pillow Talk. Yeah, I'd been trying to get it. It kept being out of stock and I finally got it eventually.

10:37I am. No, I'm not wearing that today. Am I wearing that today? I think you actually might be. I think I might be. Yeah. I think you were wearing it last week. I might have been. Yeah. Because I remember leaving and going, I should have told her her eyeliner looked great. Oh, yeah. Well, you didn't. I am a witch. That's okay. I'll take it a week later. Love it. Seven business days. Okay. So this is a bit of a juicy one because OGs may remember this Instagram account. And for those of you who don't, never fear. We're going to give you all the details. But it's been big news because this is an Instagram account.

11:14The best way I would describe this is if like Demois met Diet Prada. Yeah. So it's very much insider talk of the beauty world. So it's an anonymous beauty critic account that's been on Instagram for some time now. It was first founded in 2018. And to this day, no one knows who or how many people are behind it. I have strong suspicions that there is an Aussie in the mix and I've had them since 2018 but I'll leave my alleged conspiracy theories at the door. So as I mentioned very similar to Demois but much like that gossip account Estee Laundry relies entirely on anonymous tips that are sent in and has said that it only posts a story after receiving a critical mass of tips.

11:58So according to the Business of Fashion article it's known for its sometimes catty coverage of beauty founders and executives. While it started out calling out beauty brands that were ripping off each other's brands and products, it evolved into a sort of unofficial beauty industry watchdog that covered and critiqued beauty's corporate culture. Have you guys seen the account or followed it? Yes, I've followed it for a long time. It's kind of like Gossip Girl, isn't it? Like mysterious, like tips that come through. Yeah, but they've covered everything from bullying to racism, accusations. The account aimed at beauty executives and founders who were behaving poorly have really been called out on this account.

12:37Speaking to Business of Fashion, Estee Laundry said, we kept hearing stories about brands and founders who were openly willing to exclude people of colour and some executives that had a reputation for bullying behaviour. We were surprised no one was talking about it. So that's a little bit of background on the account. And you might be thinking, why is it newsworthy? Well, the account actually went on a two-year hiatus and was reactivated late last week which is funny because when they popped up in my feed I was like god I haven't seen them for ages same hadn't realized that actually on radio silent had just assumed I hadn't been like getting it in my you know stories and you know page according to the same business of fashion article which featured an interview with a representative of the account Estee Laundry plans to focus its future on long-form opinion pieces and commentary which is very different to kind of the snackable gossip they've been sharing or exposés I should say of you know more recent times a brief scan of the comments on their reactivated IG shows that their followers are pretty overjoyed that they're back during the account absence an account that filled the void they left never really materialized and people have clearly been hungry for this type of coverage as you both just jumped up and down while some are dubious about the account's journalistic integrity and don't view it as a valid news source this new iteration of estee laundry will see it elevating its coverage by publishing on patreon to subscribers who each pay eight dollars a month they're not silly are they one way to commercialize it yeah because i very much doubt they'll be getting beauty ships over there it published the first installment of its weekly newsletter laundry service on july 18th covering the Shiseido layoffs that we just mentioned earlier at the start of this episode by providing context about the company's performance and anonymous testimonies from employees who were impacted.

14:32So you've both mentioned that you've followed the account before. Jo, you're an OG. Annika, were you the same? Yes. And I feel like as well, it's really evolved since I first started following it. I feel like it used to really be about call-out culture and naming and shaming. And I do think now, or maybe, well, not in the last two year hiatus, but prior, it was definitely kind of talking to more really important issues. And I think issues that definitely did deserve airtime. But I think just on the newsworthy piece, sometimes I do, like it's so easy to get caught up when people spill the tea, right?

15:05Because you're like, oh, this is gossipy. But then I always try to think about it like, okay, I would love to know the other side to this argument because obviously it is all exposés, anonymous tips. and I just wonder how credible a lot of the information is. Yeah. What do you think of their credibility, Jo? Well, the anonymity element makes it difficult to consider it a news source because we can't verify that any of these people, you know, exist because they are anonymous and we also can't discount that it might just be a pile-on of disgruntled people that maybe worked somewhere, got laid off, they're upset about it and they're all, you know, jumping in to give their opinion on it without a balanced perspective from also the brand side as well.

15:48And so I think we're missing that balance here, which is probably why I wouldn't subscribe to the Patreon. I'd probably want to still access their free content, but I'm in it to just see what's going on. I'm not really using it to form an opinion on a brand. It might shape my opinion a little bit if I know that there's something going on internally, because there's often a glossy image of a brand or a business and then you kind of have the lid lifted and you're like, oh, okay, I didn't expect that to be happening behind closed doors. Yeah. What do you think, Mads? I totally agree. My firm opinion is so long as something is built on the foundation of anonymity, that it is hard to ever know the credibility of the sources or how many of them there are.

16:31And I think transparently citing sources would really be the only way for me to personally feel that this is a credible source. And even then I would be wanting to know, you know, how long was the source within the business? What was the role that they had? What was their tenure? Those kinds of things. Because for me, totally to your point, Jo, I'm with you. It's very one-sided. I do feel that a business deserves the right to answer to what is being said about them. Because it is very easy for employers to be disgruntled and sometimes the squeakiest wheel can get the most oil. And I don't want that to be confused with very serious allegations that have been covered on there before, like bullying or harassment or exclusion due to race or gender and things like that.

17:21But I do think where they need to stand on their own two feet is where those sources are coming from and the credibility of them. Because otherwise we're all going in blind and believing an Instagram account that we don't know who runs it and we don't know who's writing in. Yeah, absolutely. I think that even getting comments from the brands themselves to form some of this reporting, if that's the direction that they're going in, would be really beneficial to coming across as a reliable news source. Totally agree. The same way that I wouldn't trust DeMoi to tell me when Taylor Swift's pregnant, I'm probably not trusting this.

17:57Yeah, you kind of take it with a grain of salt, right? Like this is one of those accounts where you're like, oh, you might start to hear whispers of things and that might be your early introduction to something going on, but you're probably going to rely on an actual news source to finalise that piece of information. Absolutely. And even take the Shiseido story that, you know, they came back online with. That was kind of their re-emergence into social society. I didn't believe the sources until I saw the screenshot of the internal communications from Shiseido. Yeah. Which, again, they're not supposed to go outside the four walls of the business.

18:32Which is why some of those people would have maintained their anonymity because they don't want to be seen to be sharing things outside of the business. Yeah. I mean, the invisible cloak is a blessing and a curse in these kinds of things. So I have no doubt that beauty brands are absolutely displeased to see that Estee Laundry is back. Yeah, I don't think that'd be wrapped. Estee Lauder in particular, who's play on words it is named after. I want to kind of put ourselves in the shoes of the people that are exercising their anonymity. I can understand why they wouldn't want to give their identity away to Estee Laundry because in this industry, it can be a very small place.

19:16And if your name is then associated with you speaking out in relation to something that has happened to you in the workplace, you may then fear that that will maybe jeopardize your future employment opportunities and things like that so i can understand why you wouldn't want to say some of the things that are sent in to estate laundry and why you want to keep that anonymity yeah totally i agree with you and i think as well it can be really daunting and scary if you are part of a big corporation and you know you're going up like some of the names in this game are huge and i think just the money and the cash behind these brands and the legal teams it's like it would be really daunting and you probably maybe want to speak out because you're like this isn't right and you want to call it out but as an employee can you actually afford to you know go up against these courts as well it is really really really scary mads i think you're right about there being an aussie as well behind the account in some way shape or form yeah early days i just remember a lot of the content being australian based and I'm like is this like gossip girl but there's a little gossip girl in each like region now yeah but originally I was like uh this feel and a lot of the spelling and I really deep dove into this a lot of the spelling and things was like UK Australian it wasn't right I mean yeah so you know she's done her research that's a really good observation yeah yeah clearly enthralled in 2018.

20:42I wasn't even working in beauty at the time. I was watching from the sidelines. I actually remember that. That's how I got introduced to it because I remember there being quite a few New Zealand reports as well. Like just things happening across Australia and New Zealand which got my attention. So maybe it's Gaywick. Maybe it's me. Next we're going to discuss Princess Polly's B Corp certification but this will be right after a word from today's sponsor.

21:14All right, in news that almost made us fall out of our chairs, earlier this month, Australian ultra-fast fashion brand Princess Polly received a B Corp certification. And for those of you that don't know what a B Corp certification is, in simple terms, it's a for-profit company that's certified as meeting high standards of environmental or social performance, accountability, and transparency. Something you wouldn't ever really associate with a fast fashion brand. businesses must score at least 80 out of a possible 250 plus points in the B impact assessment to achieve accreditation. So organizations are assessed in five key areas.

21:50Those are community, customers, environment, governance and workers. Princess Polly founded in the Gold Coast in 2010 has become a hugely popular fast fashion retailer online known for producing a high turnover of low cost trend-driven pieces. Princess Polly says its mission is to make on-trend sustainable fashion accessible to everyone. And as part of this mission, they've made a few changes in recent years, like being a participant in the United Nations Global Compact, which commits them to sustainable procurement. Surprisingly, in 2024, the Baptist World Aid Ethical Fashion Report actually placed them in the top 20 % of 460 global brands that were assessed.

22:29But on Good On You, a sustainable rating website, the brand receives a not good enough grade, which the website says is due to its lack of action on reducing textile waste and plastic, protecting biodiversity in their supply chains, and the lack of evidence that they pay their workers a living wage. So it's a little bit confusing how they managed to get their hands on a B Corp certification. In an article for The Conversation, Dr. Harriet Richards, a senior lecturer at RMIT University's School of Fashion and Textiles, says that Princess Polly's B Corp certification is disappointing because it undermines the value and credibility of the accreditation.

23:02She says it demonstrates the value of the sustainability label as a marketing tool. Princess Polly attempts to position itself as distinct from other ultra fast fashion brands such as Shein by claiming they are sustainable. While they may use more environmentally friendly materials than some of their ultra fast fashion counterparts, the reality is that their business model which relies on overproduction and overconsumption is unsustainable. I think that's a bit of a mic drop from Dr. Harriet at the end there, which I would have to agree with. That's the premise of a fast fashion brand, is it not?

23:33100%. Completely agree. If you asked me to name a fast fashion brand within Australia, Princess Polly would probably have been one of the first or second names off my lips. Yeah. I don't want to seem like we're coming from glass houses as well, though, because we've all shopped and worn fast fashion brands or brands that participate in fast fashion activities. But this is more around how they got the B Corp certification in the first place because as I said in that setup it's 80 points out of a possible 250 plus points you've got to meet well it's the only categories it's the only thing I've ever heard of that you get less than half and you pass it makes no sense like what yeah imagine me like I got 80 out of 250 on the test.

24:16And I'm in. I'm a doctor. But they must have had to have provided some evidence of sustainable and ethical practices within the business to even pass that. There has to be some evidence that they've provided. Absolutely, there would have been. And I want to be really clear that B Corp certification is notoriously difficult to achieve. So on one hand, I know that factually, that's a fact. Yeah. And then on the other hand, my feeling is, has it become easier? like I'm confused by this and I'm so with you Jo I'm never going to sit in an ivory tower from a fast fashion perspective I bought shoes at Zara three weeks ago like I'm not sitting here and I don't want to yuck anyone who's shopped Princess Polly what I worry about about this B Corp certification is that it will mislead people who perhaps previously saw Princess Polly as a fast fashion retailer yes into now believing that they are contributing positively yeah to sustainability and environment and change by purchasing Princess Polly.

25:18And as Dr. Harriet said in that article, it's kind of being used here as a marketing tool to be like, hey, look, we're sustainable, which I have seen on their website. They do label things as being kind of better for the environment. Yeah. I think as well, like working in the industry, the word sustainability, it's almost become like a bit of a buzzword. And I hate to say it because there are so many brands that are actively working on their sustainability initiatives, their transparency, that actually like it's ingrained in their brands and their DNA. And it's something that they really, really are proud of.

25:49And for me, I think this whole certification, I just need it to make sense. Like I feel like it's almost greenwashing to a sense as well. At the end of the day, what Princess Polly does stand for is the definition of fast fashion. It's ultra cheap. It's mass produced. It's fast. Like the trends are delivered so fast. Even like looking on their website, I did a deep dive last night. The cheapest item on there was$4 on sale from a$30 RRP. What was the item? It was a bikini bottom. And so I was sitting there thinking, if that's how much they can sell it for at$4 on sale, then how the hell does that product accommodate a fair living wage?

26:25How on earth is your entire supply chain sustainable or the motives that you're using to actually produce those goods? How is that not supporting overconsumption and overproduction? Like for me, it was just looking at, you know, some small variables as well working in the industry. And the whole business model just defines what fast fashion really is. So I don't know. I just feel like this is kind of greenwashing in its prime. And I do worry what you said, Mads. It will kind of condone people's purchases and behavior because it's got that gold star. But that gold star to me just isn't really valid.

26:59Yeah, I see a lot of it in the beauty industry. And I'm clearly more in tune to that given that's my area of expertise. And I remember going for a coffee with Natasia, the founder of Conserving Beauty, who just side note, like that's, that can be my bonus swap of the day. She is incredible. Like just as a person, I'm not even swapping in her brand. I transparently have never used any of the products, but she and I were getting this coffee and so generous of information and insight. But even all of the work that's gone into the refillable and rechargeable space in the beauty industry at the moment, you have to be buying that rechargeable or refillable a significant amount of times for it to make sense for them to have created that as a new product as opposed to just going and buying another brand new one.

27:44Yeah. So it's quite interesting. It's not just the fashion space that we're seeing it. It's beauty brands as well that go, oh, well, 80 % of our range is refillable now to tick the box in, you know, their board reports. But really, what is the dead stock that is sitting there if someone doesn't buy the refillable of the lipstick, the moisturizer, the serum, whatever it may be. Yeah, great point. And now, you know, we're seeing it in the beauty space. The reality is they have passed this B Corp certification. But for me, looking at this, I'm a bit like, B Corp, I've lost respect for you. Not Princess Polly in all of this.

28:21It's kind of like the conversation we had around Choice and the SPF. Like, I was looking at the TGA, going, oh, there's some discrepancies here. Because I know brands that have not been able to get B Corp that are doing phenomenal things in the sustainability space. So not sure if the rules have laxed, not sure if things are different, but I was absolutely gobsmacked when they sent the Slack chat. Yeah. I think as well, I'm not an expert in sustainability. I don't really know the ins and outs of what that means and how to shop sustainably and putting a label on a brand like Princess Polly, I just feel can be a little bit problematic.