Trump changes tack on the Epstein files

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0:33Who knew Congress could act so fast? On this vote, the yeas are 427, the nays are one. Just a few hours after the U.S. House of Representatives voted to release documents related to the late convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. The bill is considered read three times and passed, and the motion to reconsider is considered, made, and laid on the table. The Senate waved through the same bill. I have nothing to do with Jeffrey Epstein. I threw him out of my club many years ago because I thought he was a sick pervert. And U.S. President Donald Trump's sign-off was a bit surprising after he flipped back and forth on whether he wanted the documents to come out at all.

1:19This is Swamp Notes, the weekly podcast from the Financial Times, where we talk about all the things happening in U.S. politics, finance, and the economy. I'm Mark Filippino, and this week we're asking, why are the Epstein files creating a political problem for Donald Trump? Here with me to discuss is Lauren Fidor. She's the FT's Deputy Washington Bureau Chief. Welcome back, Lauren.

1:37Lauren Fedor: Thanks for having me. And we've also got Chris Cook, the FT's Senior Reporter in London. Hi, Chris. Hiya. All right, so maybe we start here, Chris. Who is Jeffrey Epstein, and what exactly are the Epstein files for folks who somehow may have not been following this story? So Jeffrey Epstein is probably the world's most famous sexual predator at this point. Epstein was, not that long ago, fairly obscure financier, very, very well connected. But he was convicted in 2008 in Florida of procuring a child for prostitution. He was given a plea deal and was out again after 13 months. But then through the 2010s, some of his victims started coming forwards.

2:20There were a series of civil cases that started to be brought. Journalists, particularly at the Miami Herald, started doing really sterling work to expose not just what he had done, but also the easy treatment he got from the US judicial system. And by 2019, he was arrested again for basically the same crimes. He was found dead in a jail cell shortly after being arrested. And he leaves behind in this peculiar cultural position as this phenomenal monster who somehow managed to retain the confidences and in touch with high society people across the US, even as he was becoming better and better known as this prolific predator.

3:02Lauren Fedor: And then just to pick up on what Chris has said here, when it comes to the files, they are very broadly defined. But these years and years of investigations, criminal, civil cases, further scrutiny on him both in life and now in his death have meant that there is tons and tons of information that has been brought to public light. But there's also a lot of information that has remained sealed. And when it comes to here in Washington, that sealed information is, I think, what we are referring to, broadly speaking, when we talk about the Epstein files. President Trump campaigned last year on a promise to release the Epstein files, release what the U.S.

3:45Lauren Fedor: Department of Justice had on Epstein. And his, so far, failure to do that has created a kind of political firestorm, not only among his MAGA base, but more broadly across the political spectrum in the U.S. I do want to get into the political firestorm that you mentioned in a little bit, but I think I want to pick apart exactly what's in these files a little bit more because I feel like that's something that gets glossed over a bit. So just to recap, last week, congressional Democrats released some emails that Epstein sent where he mentioned President Trump. Congressional Republicans released thousands of documents just a few hours later.

4:23So what's the difference between those documents and the ones that the DOJ now has to release after President Trump signed off on that bill on Wednesday night?

4:33Lauren Fedor: So there are two parallel things happening here in Washington. One is this congressional investigation that you mentioned. That is something that is being led by congressional Republicans, but has the involvement of congressional Democrats as well. And you've seen those two parties clashing on this issue in the way that you might imagine. And to date, they have released more than 50 ,000 documents, some of which they have subpoenaed, others they have requested. A lot of those come from Jeffrey Epstein's estate. When it comes to the DOJ, it's important to remember that when Epstein died in 2019, he was awaiting trial on these federal charges.

5:12Lauren Fedor: So when we talk about the Epstein files in the DOJ's possession, I think it's easiest to think about it as what are the materials that prosecutors had compiled in advance of those expected trials? What did the government know, I guess, about Epstein, about his co-conspirators, Ghislaine Maxwell? And that is what I think we may see released in the public domain quite soon. Chris, you wrote about what was in this slew of documents that was released by lawmakers last week. What did you find? So I think the things that are really striking that were released in the Democratic and Republican releases last week were the first and foremost thing that everyone wrote about was the Democratic documents, which highlighted the relationship between Trump and Epstein in particular.

5:57there's one email between Maxwell, Jelaine Maxwell and Epstein where Epstein says, I want you to realize that the dog that hasn't barked is Trump, a victim. Spent hours at my house with him. And this was obviously released because it's quite pointed. And that was what sparked the Republican reply of releasing these, I think it was 23 ,000 individual files. The thing we got from those 23 ,000 pages was an enormous volume of chatter between people who are, you know, household names to FT readers, people like Larry Summers, the former president of Harvard. And Treasury Secretary. Who are continuing to sort of banter and chatter with this guy who was a pariah by the time they're having these conversations in deep into the 2010s, right up until his arrest.

6:44There are also little details about Epstein's life that we didn't know about before. One email I'd really pick out was an exchange he had with Leon Black, the billionaire, a conversation about how Epstein was advising him on reorganizing his family office. One of the questions that we've all had from the beginning of this is how exactly Epstein made his money, what the services he was providing were. A lot of the speculation about him has been around like blackmail operations, that kind of We get in these emails quite a good sight of Jeffrey Epstein, the actual professional. What is it he was actually doing?

7:19And the answer is quite odd. He's giving advice on how to run a family office. It's the first really good clue we've got about the internal workings of the actual business that gave him the money he needed to become the person he was. Lauren, you had mentioned that the Epstein files were a big thing that Trump campaigned on. Talk a little bit about that. What was going on in this Epstein story before this year in Washington?

7:44Lauren Fedor: There are a lot of people, ordinary people in the U.S., but also across the world, who have questions about Epstein's business dealings. And there are also a lot of unanswered questions about, you know, what other powerful people knew about his activities and how involved they were. There are questions about the circumstances surrounding his death, whether or not he died by suicide or perhaps was killed. So all of that has lent itself to rampant speculation and conspiracy theories. And there are a lot of people who have demanded that the government share everything that it knows on this matter, the life and death of Jeffrey Epstein.

8:30Lauren Fedor: And there are a lot of members of Trump's MAGA base in particular for whom this became a really important issue. Now, was President Trump on the stump day in, day out in 2024 invoking Jeffrey Epstein's name? No. But he was asked quite clearly in several media interviews on the campaign trail last year whether or not he would release the files when he became president again. Would you declassify the Epstein files? Yeah, yeah, I would. All right. I guess I would. I think that less so because, you know, you don't know it. You don't want to affect people's lives if it's phony stuff in there because it's a lot of phony stuff with that whole world.

9:11What happens once he's in office?

9:13Lauren Fedor: Once he's in office, the Trump administration does signal that it's going to continue with this pursuit of releasing the Epstein files. In one now infamous clip, Pam Bondi, the attorney general, was on TV and she said that she had the Epstein files. they were sitting right on her desk. The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients. Will that really happen? It's sitting on my desk right now to review. But then fast forward, and what we had over the summer was a kind of joint memo by the DOJ and the FBI saying that they had looked into the matter. I'm paraphrasing here, but really there was no grand conspiracy surrounding Epstein that he in fact had died by suicide.

9:57Lauren Fedor: and there really wasn't much more to say on the matter. That set off a kind of backlash, particularly among the MAGA base. You had people like Marjorie Taylor Greene, the congressman from Georgia, a staunch longtime defender of the president, crying foul here. I've never owed him anything, but I fought for him for the policies and for America first. And he called me a traitor for standing with these women. And what ended up happening was you had more people demanding more information, saying, why aren't they handing this over? That, I think, piled the political pressure on the president. And all of that, without speeding too much through recent history, culminated in these votes on Capitol Hill this week and President Trump signing this bill into law.

10:43Chris, let's spend some time on the documents themselves. The head of the Justice Department, Pam Bondi, is a staunch Trump loyalist. And there are skeptics out there who think if Trump is mentioned in these files that the DOJ is just going to redact his name to give him cover. We should mention that the Justice Department launched an investigation into prominent Democrats who are mentioned in the documents. What are the chances that the files are going to be released in full? So if Trump is named in them, it's shown through. One of the things in the legislation is that it contains a set of clauses in it, the sorts of which are pretty normal in a document release set, not just in the US, but in other countries too, where there are exemptions and protection provisions.

11:26You don't want to accidentally destroy a police investigation. The problem is that if you're really motivated, those create enormous loopholes that you could drive a tank through. And a very motivated DOJ could try to use those. So one of the things is they have the power to start investigations, obviously, and not disrupting an investigation is one of the grounds under which they could refuse to release information. So the fight isn't certainly not over yet, because, as I say, these sorts of fairly normal sorts of disclosure exemptions do create a lot of loopholes that they could choose to use.

12:03So, Chris, what will you be looking for when the documents are released? So the thing we're going to be looking for, first of all, is really who the other people around Epstein were in the period of his prolific offending. We're also going to be interested in the people who just didn't break ties to them, even after his disgrace. Larry Summers has stepped back from his teaching duties. We've had Peter Mandelson, the British ambassador to the US, who had to step back from that. But we've had Prince Andrew, probably the first son of a monarch who's lost his job as that from his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.

12:37There'll be more of that stuff. I think there'll be more stuff that we'll be interested in and what his business actually was, which, as I said, remains extremely mysterious and fairly underexplored and unexplained.

12:48Lauren Fedor: I may be biased here, given I'm in Washington and I write about the White House. But I think particularly in the U.S., most people are going to be interested in finding out if there's more detail about President Trump and what he knew and when and his relationship with Epstein. I think it's important to make clear that President Trump has vehemently denied time and again that he had any knowledge or involvement with Epstein's criminal activity. But he has also acknowledged the fact that these two men were friends, acquaintances at one time. President Trump says that they fell out around 20 years ago.

13:25Lauren Fedor: It'll be interesting to see whether any of that is reflected in these documents. Can I ask you why this has stuck with Trump so much? I mean, you've come on this program before and called Donald Trump Teflon Don. Like, there are issues just—he's able to shake issues, evade issues. But not only his critics, but his base have been really interested and have not stood down from demanding the release of the Epstein files. Why has this become the sticking point that it is? It's a great question, Mark, and I'm not sure I have the definitive answer on it. I mean, look, as Chris has laid out, Epstein is the most prolific, prominent household name sex offender that there is.

14:11Lauren Fedor: And his ties to the rich and powerful, including President Trump, I think have raised a lot of questions for a lot of people. And I think that in some ways, this entire saga scandal has only reinforced ordinary people's distrust of institutions and the rich and powerful. And for President Trump, that kind of anti-establishment spirit is something that he tapped into on the campaign trail. That distrust of institutions is something that he provided answers for or reinforced for the electorate. And so perhaps it's a challenge for him because it runs in the face of all of that. Does that make sense?

14:55Yeah, I think it does. So I think I want to stop here and thank our guests. Chris Cook is the FT's senior reporter in London. Thanks, Chris. Thanks ever so much. And Lauren Feador is the FT's deputy Washington bureau chief. Thanks, Lauren. Thanks, Mark. Lauren, you're actually going to stick around for exit poll because when we come back, we're going to answer a question about the military.

15:16Lauren Fedor: Sounds good.

15:30Lauren Fedor: Right now, someone is asking AI a question about your industry. They're looking for the perfect recommendation or an accurate solution, and they're ready to act on it. When AI gives an answer, is your brand a part of it or not? Most companies have no idea which. GIST changes that. We show you where you're visible, where you're not, and give you the tools to do something about it. It's time to make AI work for your brand with GIST. Learn more at gist.ai.

16:03We are back with Exit Poll where we ask an FT journalist one of your questions. And we've got Lauren Federer back with us to answer this one. Hello again, Lauren. Hi, Mark. So Lyndon from Scotland sent in this question and bonus points to Lyndon because he sent it as a voice memo, which I will say it again, we love. Let's hear it. This is sort of a perception I have that the U.S. and sort of people in the U.S. lionize their military and sort of value military experience in their politicians, something we've seen with the recent gubernatorial victories of Democrats. So I wonder, sort of as a contrast to the U.K.

16:38and other countries, where does this come from historically for the U.S. and looking forward, how it impacts foreign policy? So, yeah, Lauren, why do Americans revere leaders who have spent time in the military? Why does that make them so electable?

16:53Lauren Fedor: Well, I think there is a long tradition of American voters respecting, endorsing, supporting candidates with military service. I think in the U.S., we broadly speaking across the political spectrum, revere veterans and appreciate their sacrifice for this country. And I think that when it comes to elected politicians, voters do the same. They see someone who has been in the military in public service as someone who has sacrificed for this country, who is patriotic about this country. And I think Lyndon was very astute in pointing out that both in Virginia and New Jersey and those closely watched off-hears governor's races earlier this month, both Abigail Spanberger and Mikey Sherrill are people with national security backgrounds.

17:42Lauren Fedor: They ran on their bios on their CVs. And I know that was an intentional choice on the part of their campaigns because they knew that not only played well with Democratic voters, but it also played well with swing voters. And just to tap into a point that you've already brought up about the rich tradition of military experience and leadership, our founding fathers, many of them fought in the Revolutionary War. Our first president, George Washington, was a general in the Revolutionary War. It goes back for hundreds of years. Yeah, absolutely. And it does come up to the president. You know, now Donald Trump does not have military service, but we would be remiss not to say that the vice president, J.D.

18:19Lauren Fedor: Vance, who is potentially going to be the Republican Party's nominee for the presidency in 2028, does have a military background and served in the Marine Corps. And that is something that I think was appealing to President Trump and the people around him when they were selecting Vance's running mate. Well, Lyndon, I hope that answers your question. Lauren, thanks again. Thanks for having me. If you have a question that you want to send us, please do it. My email is in the show notes. And as I've already mentioned, we love voice memos. We want to hear your voice. Just make sure to include your name and where you're from.

18:51If you do send us your audio, we may even play it on the show.

19:01This was Swamp Notes, the US politics show from the FT. If you want to sign up for the Swamp Notes newsletter, we've got a link to that in the show notes. Our show is produced by Henry Larson. It was mixed by Sam Giavinko. Special thanks to Pierre Nicholson. I'm your host, Mark Filipino. Our acting co-head of audio is Topher Forges. Original music by Hannes Brown. Check back next week for more U.S. political analysis from the Financial Times.

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