Everything is a bit too late

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1:10This is Felix White. Greg James is actually on holiday. He presented the Christmas show on Radio 1 and that was enough work for the winter period. So he's left me in charge of Tail Enders for the fourth test. So I'm presenting the show with Kate Cross and Jimmy Anderson. And I've got some very confused thoughts and feelings about this test match, which I have put to paper. And before we start the episode, I'm just going to reel them off and you can make what you want of them. England have won a historic first Australian test since 2011, the first in 5 ,468 days. So why do I feel like they've won a consolation one day international in an ICC non-ranking event.

1:52Is it by any chance because I said I would never watch cricket again if it ended 3-2? And now I realise that there's nothing this England team are more likely to do than win the final two tests of an Ashes series they've already lost in 11 days. The 25-26 Ashes are fast becoming the Ashes we remember for not remembering anything. No cricket whatsoever sticking itself to the mind because it all happens so quickly, too quickly, not even one day to daydream, but it's in the balance and the first hour is massive. The first hour has never been less massive. The first hour is f***ed. You'll be lucky to even get a first hour.

2:29Which will I regret more in the fullness of time? The amount of time I spent watching this cricket through the night, the amount of time I spent thinking about cricket through the day, or the amount of time I spent listening to people talk about cricket that I wasted my whole day thinking about and my whole evening talking about? Look, I'm not angry for me. I'm angry on behalf of Jiton Patel and Marcus Droskovic, who, quite honestly, could have been given the good grace to do the post-match interviews here, having taken 112 for the team up till now. Other questions still to be answered in Sydney, hopefully by one of those two.

3:00Has Will Jackson nailed down the specialist number nine slot for the final test? Is Zach Crawley right, that 3-2 will be a good series? And if he is, what were you all doing in the first place? Ben Stokes was shell-shocked in Perth. The curator is in a state of shock in Melbourne. So please shake me from my shock. Help me with my midlife crisis. Nothing as good as it was. Positivity ceiling that I've hit. What is the real truth here? Or is it post-truth basbalisms forever from now? And why a few days after one of a generationally rare England wins, am I feeling like a cricketing version of Michael Douglas in Falling Down, about to get out of a traffic jam with TMS stuck on loop, telling me not to throw the babies out of the bathwater and walk the motorway bare feet shouting, what do I have to do to find someone to block and leave and nick off a 30-something off 150 bulls so I can understand the world again?

3:53Please welcome to the show, Jimmy Anderson and Kate Cross.

3:59That's amazing. Yeah? I feel like I've just had an audience with Felix White. How do you feel about it all, Jim? Because I knew this was going to happen, but they were going to show up when the series was done. Obviously, it was a shootout on a pitch where anything could have happened. But did you have that sense of anger? Because you're watching the Ashes in Australia for the first time as a fan. Did you have a similar sense of ire as I did? First time as a fan since I was a kid. Correct. Yeah. I don't think I had anger. I think there was some frustration there because England performed. I know the pitch was dodgy, but they bowled miles better than they have done all series.

4:40I wouldn't say they batted better than they have done all series, but they did enough to win the game. So there was an element of frustration there. But I also think that knowing how many fans travel out there, they won't care. They won't care about it being a two-day test. All they care about is going to the pub that night with an England win in Australia. They've seen an England win in Australia. Not just the win in Australia, the Boxing Day Test, which is one of the most iconic sporting events in the world. I felt happy for them. I also felt really happy for Ben Stokes and Joe Root because seeing them hug at the end of the game, they've played 18 tests, I think, in Australia and that's their first win.

5:19And I don't think it would have sat well with me that for someone or two players that have done so much for English cricket that they would never have won a game there. So I think for them to get that monkey off the back is good as well. Kate, more broadly, how's it all been for you? Because obviously we haven't heard from you on this, Ashes. Tell us, what's your feeling about the whole thing? Are you sort of glazed with a sense of disappointment? Have you enjoyed periods of cricket? No, I've not enjoyed any of it. I actually don't think I have. I've not been angry about it, but when I woke up and saw that we'd won the other day, so I get a running commentary from Hartley that I wake up to, so I read that first.

5:57It's quite funny because she'll be like, Bride and Cassie's fighting three. and so I get like a bit of a spoiler before I go on. So she's texting you? Yeah, yeah. While she's commentating? Yeah. Well, I don't know whether she's actually on air. Probably shouldn't throw her in like that. She probably is, let's be honest. So I kind of read the spoilers from Al and then I'll go on the scorecard and she was just like, oh my God, look at the scorecard after the game the other day. And I was just expecting us to have lost. But then I also wasn't surprised when we've won. So I kind of feel like I woke up every morning, looked at the scorecard and had the same feeling of I'm not surprised by this scorecard.

6:30It just kind of felt a bit meh for me. I'd have to agree with that. Whether you've stayed up and watched it, which we have quite a bit, or whether you wake up and watch the end of a day's play or you watch the highlights, you're like, it's not been like, there's not been a lot of quality in the series. It's not been like loads of great batting, loads of great bowling, some great innings. No one got 50 in this game. I know a lot of people are saying it's the pitch, but it wasn't a great pitch. It was doing loads, but it's the job of the batter to find a way to score a run. What I find interesting about the pitch chat is that when you'll have bowled on however many pitches where it's been like 500 plays, 500, and no one talks about how difficult it is for the bowlers on those pitches.

7:17And then it's been a difficult pitch for the batters. And obviously it's been marked down as pretty poor. Yeah. But there's been no chat around the other way round. and when there is that really flat pitch and it's really hard to take wickets, no one says it's a disappointing pitch or anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you bowled on many pitches with 10 millimetres of grass on it, Kate, before? I reckon I have back in my Hayward days, yeah. Yeah, back in club days. Yeah, club cricket. And would it, just give us an example of that. Would the ball jag off a lot of grass, obviously, at any level? Yeah.

7:50But 10 mil's not a lot. How much is 10 mil? 10 mil's like? I don't know. That's not 10 mil. 10 mil's like that? It's not a lot. So like in county cricket, I've played on pitches that have got 18 mils on or 14 mils. Right. It depends on the ground. Some grass is slightly different. This looked very thatchy and thick. Other places you play, it's a little bit thinner. It's not as thick a consistency. It gets rolled in and not really bats an eyelid. Right. And I don't know why this went around a lot. It did. the numbers are quite big the amount of scene movement there was it's unexpected isn't it like you go to the MCJ and you expect it to be a five day test and a lot of runs scored yeah but like you think you play at Lourdes you expect that kind of movement and batters adjust to that and are prepared for that and they talk a lot about that in the build up to it and the slope and etc but I think it's because it was so unexpected I mean so much so the groundsman came out and did an interview I know the next day that's been my highlight of the ashes I know and he said he was in a state of shock shock yeah which was interesting synergy because it was almost exactly the same as the first test.

8:57And Ben Stokes, very reactionary, just said immediately he was shell-shocked about what happened. Fast forward a month and the curator's out saying he's in a state of shock about the pitch. This sort of like national crisis that he'd put too much grass on the pitch. It's an interesting point though because he was talking about days three and four and we're culturally getting to a point where our curator is going to even prepare pitches for days three and four anymore because quite often batters aren't getting through those tough periods to even get to that period. Like, are we going to change culturally how these pitches get prepared?

9:32Do you know what I mean? Because back in the day, day three and four, it will flatten out. But are we seeing that batters' techniques mean that pitches aren't going to get that far? Do you think it was something to do with the weather? Because it was so cold. Melbourne, it's been so different, hasn't it? It was cold on day one and then he was preparing that pitch because it was going to be really hot on day three. So that's why he did it. but I don't know whether it's just because Melbourne is so unpredictable with its weather. Like at Perth, they know what they're going to get, so they know how to prep those pitches.

9:58Yeah. I don't know. I'm not a curator. What do you think? I don't know, but whatever he did, he got it wrong. He got it really wrong. You can't prepare a pitch thinking day three and four, the weather's looking hot, so I'm going to try and get it to flatten out. You want a fair pitch day one and two. I think there should be some sea movement now. I think that's what we expect from a test pitch. the first morning, a little bit of scene movement and gradually gets better and then potentially deteriorates day four and five. That's how I see a test wicket. But I don't like, they're coming out and doing an interview.

10:33Why? I loved it. I also saw another title for him, like the head of turf and soil or something. Head manager of turf and soil. I mean, this is the thing though, right? We've watched so little cricket and the people we've heard from are the head of turf and soil, Jeetan Patel and Marcus Raskoffick. This is this sense of disorientation about this series. And we haven't heard from anyone who's played so little of the actual cricket. I've seen a video of Ben Duckett's feet with someone saying, you need to get an Uber to the Nets. That's about as much I've heard from the team. Apart from, you're right, I'm happy that Joe Root and Ben Stokes have won a test.

11:18But then they're suddenly coming out saying we've had a lot of stuff thrown at us and we're happy to have won. You've lost the ashes in 11 days. What do they want? Do they want people to be saying, do you know what I mean? Like, what do you expect? And I think that's the weird thing about this series is that I feel like this winter we've developed this sort of us and them thing that sort of accidentally happened between. I'm sure the people out there, like you talk to 20 ,000 people, are going mental. but from watching before there's kind of a disconnect that's sort of almost because it's no one's fault but do you know what I mean it's happened between us and the team Yeah I think the disconnect is the time difference 100 % is playing a part in that Yeah because the times that the tests are starting at it's 11.30 or midnight so people are staying up for that first session so we stayed up for the first session on Boxing Day it was I think 70 for 4 and then wake up at whatever time in the morning and 20 wickets are falling Yeah.

12:15And you can't. And then the same day too, same day too. You watch the morning session, wake up, game's finished. So you can't get that connect with the game, the players. So true. There's nothing there. So true. That's the problem being here. That's why the Barmy Army down there, 20 ,000 English fans down in Australia watching every ball, a little bit more invested than we are. And we feel a bit robbed by the experience. Robbed. We was robbed. let's talk about some positive things like Josh Tong Kate we'll hear from you in a second but Jimmy talked before the series about that's going to be the threat Josh in Australia you thought he should have played all the tests and we did a tour and you were saying he's the guy that will cause problems in Australia that's sort of proven to be the case really we did a sort of theatre tour before the Ashes started it was in October and I was picking my squad I thought Tong should start because he's got that point of difference, he's got pace, maybe not necessarily got control all the time, but he bowls wicket-taking balls and he's got an awkward action, awkward angle that he bowls from.

13:21And the other one that I mentioned in that squad that I picked was Rayan Ahmed, who now doesn't look so silly. Yeah. I got laughed at when I said Rayan Ahmed. He did the whole theatres across the country. If you're batting Will Jack for eight to bowl spin, why not play Rayan Ahmed in that? Someone who's scored a mountain of runs in counter cricket, bowls leg spin which is a bit different to anything else we've got yeah but yeah I was really happy for Josh I thought he bowled really well one thing that the England bowlers did really well in that that test match was like it's very easy to say the wicket was doing all sorts but you've still got to be able to hit your areas and they you know found that length that fuller length quite consistently and I thought they did really well you're a fan of Josh?

14:03I love Josh Tong I remember was it the 2023 Ashes when he got Warner out at Lourdes that ball that he got that came back into him and I was like he like Jimmy said he balls wicket taking balls but I think obviously when you've got Brydon who's just been out of form this series you kind of can't have too many bowlers like Josh in the team because you can't have people leaking runs and also yeah you need you know you need well but I think Ben's actually bowled pretty well but you need someone to be able to hold and end up but yeah I think Josh is pretty special I'm good for him that he's not played more of it but obviously it's if he can stay fit now that's that's been And the thing with the bowlers throughout it all, we've lost a bowler every single game.

14:39Yeah. Has he suffered from that a little bit? But we've committed to Kars and Brydon hasn't bowled the areas we'd have expected him to. So they probably fought consistency-wise, like you just said. To be fair, Brydon, I thought, bowled really well through the summer. He was one of our pick of the bowlers in the India series. So I think, yeah, he's probably, he was second choice, obviously, going into it. but I think now he's done himself so many favours that he should be one of the first names on the team sheet now moving forward. If he can keep himself fit as well, that's obviously going to be one of the main.

15:10Can you think of many equivalents of bowlers that release points are just slightly above their head? Is it a weird angle to be picking the ball up from with Josh? Because he comes from, I don't know, a perpendicular, but he just comes from a slightly weird angle, doesn't he? You're looking at me like a bat a lot. Bummer's quite, that's where he gets his angle from, isn't it? he's got that. I'd say Cummins is probably the most similar. It comes just the other side of like purple. Interesting, yeah. And so you see Cummins, he's caused Joe Root loads of problems and it's because he's got the angle in.

15:43He doesn't hit the stump slot, but it looks like he's going to hit the stumps because it feels like he is because the way he sort of that angle that it comes in at and then just gets it to hold either way off the seam. Well, I've noticed what I have seen with the bowlers this series is that they've all been trying to create that angle. Like Gus Atkinson for me is really similar to Joffre and Joffre notoriously like bowled next to the stumps and everything was just one line and dead simple but then I noticed Gus has been coming a little bit wider of the crease in this series and I don't know whether that's a plan or he's changed something but it feels like he's trying to create that angle which Josh gets naturally so that's why he's obviously got that success and got that wicket-taking delivery in him.

16:19Yeah have you been surprised Kate but they just haven't been able to bowl consistent areas because that's been the irritating thing from afar is like watching them through the night and thinking like so easy for someone who doesn't play cricket to level you guys and think why are you bowling short and wide because we have the opinion watching cricket that you're just choosing to not bowl in the right places but sometimes it have felt like maybe Brydon's been asked to bowl sort of enforcery type areas where it's just seemed so obvious that you should be hitting the top of off stump. And this test, at least because of all that grass, you felt like it was just the only thing you could do is just try and hit top of stump and you knew the ball would do the rest for you.

17:00Do you think there's like been a plan or do you feel like they, I don't want to say underprepared, but has it surprised you? Well, they have underprepared, haven't they? They've admitted that they've underprepared. Or overprepared, if anything. Yeah, true. I think it is frustrating, but there's nothing worse than when you feel out of rhythm as a bowler. and you can't hit the areas that you know you can hit consistently. But I'd love to know, obviously we're never going to know, but I'd love to know what the conversations were from a bowler's point of view about how they were preparing for this series.

17:30Because if I had an injury or I had a series coming up, I would sit down and plan how I'm going to be ready for that first game. What my overs look like, how many games I'm going to have before that, what all my gym and everything looks like. So as a player, I know that I've kind of done everything to get myself where I think I would be ready. Whether I would be ready or not is obviously different because of your rhythm and things like that. But I kind of have a good idea of what I would need to get ready for a big series. Have they done that? You would hope they have. Yeah. But then I would feel like if I've not had the game time as a bowler, I would want to make sure I've got the prep time.

18:07It's never the same because you can't emulate your nets. You're never going to bowl 20 overs in a net session, which you would do. I mean, poor Josh Don got a five for MCG on Boxing Day and then was bowling again that evening. I know. Like he didn't even have time to enjoy his moment. Yeah, yeah. But you can't emulate that is what I'm trying to say. So I'd just love to know who they're sitting down and talking with about plans and the prep. Obviously, no one means to bowl short and wide. That is not, that's not the plan. Maybe it was at Perth, not wide, but I feel like they got lulled into the pitch there, didn't they?

18:37They wanted to bowl quick and they wanted to bowl short. But yeah, knowing what they've done in this test, that's where the frustration sits because you know that they can do it and they've just not done it for the first three games. and that's probably been the under in. What's your feeling on that, Jim? Yeah, I think, again, the frustration from this game, we've said they bowl well, they've got their length right and stuff, but it was also the plans for me, like Kars in Adelaide, bowl round the wicket to head, trying to swing it back in. And then he'd try and get one to go away from him. But because it's such a hard skill to do, he ended up bowling short and wide and getting cut quite a lot.

19:13This game, he came over the wicket. to someone like Head it's just for me it's a no-brainer like I just I don't know why you wouldn't start over the wicket and the first few test matches we were bowling around the wicket a lot to him when you've got guys that are really good at bowling at left-handers like Joffre, Gus and Brydon I just think it's a no-brainer you can pitch the ball on the stumps and when it's nipping it's a bit easy to do I guess because it's going either way and you're challenging both sides of the edge but I just I couldn't get my head around the planning like the tactical side of it for the first couple of games and it just felt like you know we took whatever you want to say about preparation but it looked like we were getting things right in the fourth test which is obviously way too late but then on that point Gus opened the ball in over the wicket to head in this game and then second innings he came around to him yeah in the ball in like what but he looked so troubled so what are the what are the conversations that are being had like how have you gone from oh this looks really difficult for the batter to the next innings go let's go back to what we did in games one, two and three.

20:13Yeah, absolutely. As a fan, that's my frustration. Yeah. What's happened there? From a non-technical cricketing perspective, sometimes I feel like we talk about basball and the batting and running towards a danger in terms of the batting all the time. But I always feel like as bowlers, they want to bowl wicket-taking deliveries all the time and they're sort of drunk the Kool-Aid in the sense that no one wants to do that work in those yards where you just land the ball in the same place all the time. do you know what I mean? When I watch this team, I don't feel like I'm watching your team, for example, Jim, where you'd bowl long periods, bowl dry.

20:50It's nothing to do with bowling dry. I hate that saying. I've never thought about that in my life, about bowling dry. The way you get wickets is by bowling wicket-taking balls or trying to bowl a wicket-taking ball every ball. That's my mindset. And on some wickets, some pitches, it will take longer for those wickets to come, the wicket-taking balls to come. You've got to just try and hit the same area all the time with the odd bouncer and little thing. Your plans might change slightly if a batter gets in, but generally you're trying to hit that same area all the time and then something will do, it will move.

21:26And on a wicket like this, that's exaggerated because they know that if they're there or thereabouts, it's going to look like a wicket-taking ball every ball. Yeah, yeah. But on the wickets that we've seen before this, where those wicket-taking balls are may be harder to come across. It's the stuff in between that really matters. And that's when you've got, like your pitch maps got to be like smaller. Yeah, yeah. It's like the old Brian Lara cricket. Like you've got that big circle. You want that circle to be like as small as possible and group as much as you can in that area so that you're challenging them as much as possible.

22:00What's an analogy? Talking of which gym, Gus can't play the fifth test, which would mean maybe Matt Potts is going to play. we'd suspect he would bowl those Brian Lara cricket areas. Yeah. Do you reckon? Well, Potts and Fisher are the two bowlers in the squad and I'd be gutted for Potts if he didn't get the chance. He's been in the squad from the start. Yeah. He's someone who works really hard. He could do really well in those conditions. I don't know what Sydney would expect after all the talk around this pitch that it's going to be flatter. It's going to have to be flatter now, isn't it? Yeah, but he's a workhorse.

22:33He'll do the hard yards. Kate was talking about holding up an end or that sort of role he can do because he's got a good engine on him. So I'd expect him to come in for Atkinson. And then you've got, does Bashir play if it's going to be dry and flat? And that's another. Where are you going, Kate? What's your team? My prediction before the series started, I didn't say it very loud because everyone was saying England were going to win, but I predicted 4-1 and that Fish would play in the last test. Wow, shout! I know I really want him to play. And I would feel, I'd be the same, I'd feel for Potsy if he doesn't play.

23:02but for my own selfishness I'd really like Matty Fish to play And why would you pick Fish River Potts from a cricket in perspective? Just from a prediction point I really rate him as a bowler I think he's been another one that's struggled with injuries but I he debuted a while ago didn't he? But I really liked him when he plays and I think he's he's had a good season with Surrey but I just I love what he I think he is exactly what Jimmy was talking about he can bowl in his little cardboard box and then has wicket-taking deliveries as well. So I think he's going to be an asset for England moving forward.

23:37I don't know about Bashir. You'd have to drop Jax, I guess, would you? I feel like Jax has nailed down the specialist number nine slot, though. Number nine? He's basing nine and not bowling. But yeah, I think it's a bit late, isn't it, for Bash to play? I mean... Everything's a bit late, though, isn't it? Yeah, this is the thing, though. The problem for them now is if they pick Bash and he bowls well, then that's going to be a problem. But you can't not pick him because of that. You can't just go, oh, we think he might do well, so it'll look rubbish on us if he does. But do people, you can't. I think you should, from a management point of view, I think you should play him so that you've got an idea of what he can do in those.

24:14Like the whole plan has been him being ready for Australia. Play him, see how he goes, and then hold your hands up if you get it wrong. They hold their hands up about the prep and about everything else. I just don't know what happens if he doesn't play. What happens to him? Yeah. Like everything was leading up to this point. He's played 18 of the last 20 tests, I think, before this series. No, Jeetan Patel said that we weren't really concentrating on this actually. But I just, I think, what sort of message does that send to him if he's not going to play? And then does he then, you know, going forward, what happens in the summer?

24:50I think that's why you're playing. You've got to see how he goes. Because what's the point in the whole of the last three years with him and the plan? From my perspective, I would feel if he got thrown in now and bowled badly, then I feel like basically you're saying to the world that's the end of your international career. And it becomes a footnote of like all the 90s casualties that we picked for England for one test. I feel like you'd be putting so much undue pressure on him to bowl. But there's no pressure on him. Well, yeah, maybe that's true. They've not done well and he can just go and prove himself.