Review, Revelations and Relief

23:21It's amazing. One, all anyone's really interested in is rugby, right? So if you have a bad day, no one cares, right? The food's incredible. The people are so friendly. Even the New Zealand cricket team are just a great bunch of guys who sort of want to just have a beer with you at the end of the day's play. And as I say, the crowd don't get stuck into it. No one even knows you're there. And also, you could lose a test match. And because you're so far away, you may as well be on the moon. Because by the time it's got home, it's already a day. You're into the next day. So the stress and pressure of playing in New Zealand is completely different to then going and ending up at the Gabba.

24:01or Perth where it's just everyone is on you and the intensity of that is polar opposite. And you're playing a different format anyway.

24:11James Anderson:Jimmy, similar thoughts on that or can we move on to the bowlers? From my point of view, I think we've been there. I don't know how old Harry Brook is. Is he 25? I think he's 25. Around 25. When we were 25, we were making mistakes. Yeah. And we got in trouble at times. We got fined. We'd have been in the papers or whatever. but it's the fact that it's around an Ashes series and leading up to an Ashes series that doesn't look great. The fact that he's captain of the one-day side doesn't look great. The fact that I think I read it was the night before in ODI, which they lost, again, doesn't look great.

24:46So yeah, it's not a great look for Harry Brook or the team or the culture or whatever, but I will say it's happened to many people across my career. So I just, as long as he learns from it and doesn't happen again. Like as England captain, you can't behave like that. And I'm sure he'll, it'll just sort of fizzle away into the ether. I think it calls into question, it's not just a Harry Brook thing, it's a culture thing, right? And again, preparation, culture that we'll, I'm sure, talk about. It's, for me, it's more about what is the expectation on those players in that dressing room right now?

25:22What is it to be an England cricketer? So knowing that in our dressing room, you know, we came up with our team charter and all of that. We drew that up as players. It wasn't a coach or a captain saying, this is what you have to do. It was like, right, we're the England cricket team. How do we want to live? How do we want to be perceived by the public? What do we want to stand for? We had little lines like, never take the bridge, which basically meant at Lord's getting out of the dressing room to the car park, you can either go down the stairs at the back of the pavilion and through the crowds, or you can go over the bridge upstairs and through the museum and through the back door and therefore avoid signing autographs or having photographs.

26:0390 % of the time I took the bridge. Jimmy Swan took the bridge. Yeah, it's called the Jimmy Anderson Bridge. But it was something, make the choice to go and see fans, sign autographs, have photographs and everything else, because that's how we wanted to be perceived as an England cricket team. When you did Swanee's Diaries and you two, it was sort of a, right, humanise the England cricket team. That's what we were trying to do as a group. Work hard. Be the hardest working team in the world. Be highly skilled, but also be human. Be able to laugh at yourself. That was what we were trying to promote as a group, and we all signed up to that.

26:36What is this current England group, whether white ball, red ball, whatever it is, what is their culture? What does it mean to play cricket for England at the moment? Other than it's how we play and we just have a bit of a dart and it's kind of good fun. Run at danger. That's how we play. There's no backward step ever.

26:52James Anderson:It's a great point. That's really what we've been wanting for a while, which is just to see these personalities who we want to love. We want to get behind. We don't want them to lose. I don't enjoy watching England lose. There are some pundits who clearly really enjoy watching England lose and they love it and they fill their boots with it and all the rest of it. But I really love some of those players. I love watching Joe Root score hundreds. I love watching Ben Stokes being fired up. I love seeing the new... I love seeing Josh Tung bowling really well. I love seeing Jacob Bethel. But this is the other thing, is that those bits of bad luck follow you around when you are losing.

27:29James Anderson:The Ben Duckett Uber thing, for example, if he just scored 100 that day before, funny, great. Everyone would be like, ooh, Ben Duckett. It's unfortunate that we're not playing well. And also things like the Brendan McCollum crossword thing. I don't know if anyone's seen it, but the camera cuts and McCollum doing his crossword, which he likes to do, when he's sort of tucked up in his baseball cap and his glasses looking like a hungover PE teacher with his feet up, just doing a crossword, but flicking to the answers in the back of the book. It's like the Simpsons. Don't do that because that's literally saying you want to fast forward and don't do any prep or don't learn anything.

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29:48James Anderson:Bowlers Should we talk about a positive and then I'd like you to try and evaluate what's happened there Tongue? I think there are a few positives Archer thought bowled really well when he played again question marks over his fitness Wood was a disappointment as well getting injured first test but I think sorry positives positives. Archer, Archer, I thought Atkinson bowled pretty well without getting much reward in the first couple of games. Carse, he's someone who's not bowled with a new ball much and he was asked to do that in I think the last three tests when Atkinson and Archer were injured.

30:27So you could see that like he can do it but I don't think he's there yet. He needs more exposure to it because I don't think he opens the bowling for Durham when he plays county cricket for Durham. So he needs more exposure to that especially in Australia when the cookery ball's so important. That first five, ten overs, when you know it's going to swing for a little bit, you need to be absolutely bang on. So I thought he gave a decent account of himself. I've never seen anyone try harder. Yeah. He looks like he's... And I think that's why Stokes likes him so much, right? Yeah, I think so. The mentality of...

30:59But that actually annoyed me a bit when I saw Stokes come out and say the way Tong and Kass have just run in consistently. I had a Roy Keen moment. I was like, it's your job. Well, yeah, that's true. It is. If you're not willing to run in all day for your team, don't bother. You're in the wrong sport. Your job as a bowler, Stark, for me, obviously a standout, man of the series, player of the series. He bowled on day five of the fifth test as quick as he bowled. Day four, was it? Sorry. Day five, yeah. Morning of day five. 144Ks an hour. That's as fast as he bowled. throughout the series, consistent with his speeds.

31:43He's robust enough to, he's obviously more experienced in the England attack, but that is what you expect from all your bowlers. That is the standard. It always annoys me when you can't fault your efforts. Well, the effort shouldn't be a thing. The effort should just be in you. It's not an under-10 football tournament, is it, where everyone gets a medal for 10 and up? Well tried. You're not at that level. is a non-negotiable effort. Yeah. It's a non-negotiable. Yeah. Trying hard. It's like not giving up is just... Yeah. So back to the positives. No, but I guess what that is,

32:19James Anderson:that is clutching at straws because he couldn't really sort out his radar for a long time during his spells. I mean, they were spraying them all over the place. So I guess you go, yeah, at least they're trying. But I'd like to know from you how we sort that problem out of the bowlers. because that is your opening bowler who's the pitch map. I mean, the pitch map looked like someone had spilled a load of golf balls all over the floor. It was all over the shop. What he wants to say is get Broad and Anderson back, right? This comes with a mixture of experience, playing more and practicing and more exposure to just cricket in general because I know it's hard at the minute.

33:04There's loads of cricket going on. So players are rested and, you know, you've got to manage the bowlers because of the workloads and stuff. But I don't know what Stark did before this series, but I'm pretty sure he played state cricket. Red Bull. Shield cricket. Shield cricket. That is what you need as a bowler. And I thought Kars got better throughout the series. His pitch map got a little bit less spread out. And he's got like, it reminds me a bit of Stuart Broad. He's got that spell in him where I think, you know, he bowls wicket-taking balls. He's got good pace. and he runs in all day so he's got the attributes to be a test opening bowler but I just think he needs time to learn his game.

33:45I know he's not that young. I think he's 27, 28 but he just needs to keep learning and hone his skills so that he's more consistent. It's that consistency that we saw with Australia that let the England bowling group down. They bowl well at times or one bowler will bowl well from one end then the guy at the other end is not working as a partnership and spraying it a bit. So there's a release at one end and this guy creating pressure is meaningless really. And there were times when both ends were sort of spraying it. So it's just that consistency of getting those good bits and trying to get them across five days because that's exactly what Australia did.

34:22I mean, well, they didn't do it all the way through the series, but they did it better than England did

34:27James Anderson:for longer periods than England did. I'm worried about what the bowling future is, the immediate future for England is because what happens in the summer? Where are we going to be? I mean, we're sort of projecting now and trying to imagine what happens. Who's taking the new ball in the summer in England? I mean, what can we learn from this series? You've given it to Tongue and either Wood maybe if he's back, Joffre if he's there, Gus, or what's the strong line? Who's the new Jimmy? Who's the new Jimmy? Who's the new Brodie, Priory? At the end of a series like this, all bets are off. Just clean slate.

35:01And I would go back to, right, we've got a county season starting and everyone's playing for a place. The first test team, whenever that, when is the first test? Later on in the summer, isn't it? Right, June. We've got some time for people to put performances in for their counties and the best 11 players play. Like just because you were in Australia doesn't mean you were shooing for first test of the summer. Actually, no. Go back, take the lessons, put that into practice. I think one of the worries for me is, and Jimmy, it's probably better for you to comment on it because you know what it's like to do it, but we talk a lot about the effect of a white ball cricket on batting and test batting.

35:40But I was watching England's bowlers and kind of going, well, hang on, what's the white ball effect on red ball test match bowling? Because it's a complete opposite again. Nowadays, with 2020 being everyone's playing 2020 franchise cricket, blah, blah, blah, you can't bowl the same ball twice. You have to bowl a different, whether it's length, line, pace, whatever it is, you have to bowl a different ball pretty much every delivery, right? Test cricket, you need to be able to bowl the same ball for an hour, whether that's line of length, hitting the top of off, taking it away. Yes, with a bit of variation, wobble seam, whatever it may be, but the consistence of being able to repeat an action and repeat a delivery for time and time and time again.

36:18And the only way of training that, because I remember, Jimmy, when you were younger, you'll admit, sprayed a little bit, you had to hone your action and everything else. That only came through, as you've just said, bowling with a red ball, honing your action, honing your skill, learning it. You know, my wrist changes like this. The ball does that. You know, and that comes through time, prep, playing. if they go off and play a load of white ball when is the time for these guys to develop what they've just been taught or should have learned in Australia you shouldn't be learning in an Ashes series of what you're saying

36:52James Anderson:well they were and I guess as we went through the series there were improvements and actually by the fourth and fifth test oh okay we can sort of compete in certain sessions and we do know how to change tempo in our innings and put the ball there it's almost like if you had three competitive warm-up matches before going into the test series so it'd have a good effect. Jim, who's in your line-up in the summer? Who are you impressed by? I kind of agree with Matt a little bit where I think they should go, right, I don't know what the white ball situation is tours-wise after the World Cup, but if in April there's not been any cricket for a bit, then get them all playing county cricket.

37:33Manage it, don't play every game, but just manage it, manage their workloads. But say, I want to see... So that's what they did with Ollie Robinson. They said, right, you go back to county cricket. I want to see you charging in. I want to see you bowling, like giving max effort and all this sort of stuff. So I'd like them to say that to the whole group. For me, Tong and Kars probably be in that first, my test team in the summer, if fitness dependent. But I think they've shown enough, especially in English conditions. I think there'll be a handful. Tong in particular, I think he's got something.

38:08He really has. But again, I feel like I can see him going into white ball cricket. Well, they called him up for Sri Lanka. Yeah. So, again, it's a workload thing. You don't want people getting injured too much. Stokes is another issue because he's probably been the most consistent, accurate bowler throughout the series. And that then took its toll in the last test when he's in his 28th over and gets injured.

38:36James Anderson:But also it's taken its toll on his batting. He's had a pretty rotten series with the bat as well. Potentially, yeah. This series, he was a bowling all-rounder. Yeah, I don't think that's a reason really for his batting to slip. I don't think he can. He's been an all-rounder. his whole life. He knows how to sort of... But he's never had to lead the attack or very rarely does he lead the attack. Yeah. He was always the, like give Stokes a few overs, whereas actually it's been a... His workloads are up. Because like, so in this last test match, he was in his 28th over in the second innings. Mad.

39:09When everyone else had bowled 20 to 23. Yeah. And when you're in a four-man attack, those three main bowlers have got to be taking the brunt of the work. Right. And Stokes is the one with around 18 to 20 overs at that stage of the innings and the other guys have bowled 25 each. I just don't, you know, it puts too much pressure on him and especially with his body recently. Like I say, it might have affected his batting a little bit as well, but not sure. Well, him going pop was sort of inevitable. I mean, you're just waiting for it. Unfortunately, hoping it wasn't going to happen, but the amount of his workload, then when there were calls of him to like bat at three, I was thinking, right, when is this guy going to sleep?

39:48Like, this is ridiculous because again, when I was out there, it wasn't just the workload with his bowler. So let's talk about him in the field, right? Take the batting aside. I don't think it's just his bowling, which of course would have taken its toil. In the field, there were two guys that were trying to G everyone up, run between overs, et cetera. It was Stokes and Root. Literally no one else. So Stokes is having to bowl the overs, G everyone up, do the running, shuttling between the overs, set the fields. No one else, their route was his go-to sort of guy, right? They're losing. Like that mentally for him.

40:27And then he's got to go out and bat because they're, you know, four down, three down, four down for nothing within the first hour. And then you're out there batting. I mean, what chance do you have?

40:35James Anderson:So what is that? Is that them not delegating? Is that them not feeling that they can delegate? Is that they haven't quite got the right mix of characters on the field? What is that? Where does that come from? Is it your job to step up or do you need your captain to say, I really need some help here? I don't know what the case is. I'm just wondering, is it that they're going, I'm in charge, we're sorting this out? Or should people feel like they can stand up and go, actually, Skip, I think we need to sort that out. It's not about, you shouldn't, again, it's like a non-negotiable. You should just have energy in the field.

41:13I know it's a thing with a lot of cricketers that they hate fielding. because it's long in four-day cricket, five-day cricket. It's long, you know, in the heat. It does take it like it mentally can fatigue you, but you've got to find ways of enjoying it because if you don't enjoy it, you're not concentrating enough. You'll drift off, you'll put catches down inevitably. And one thing that we did when we played together was we're like, if we work really hard on our fielding, if we're switched on, if we're concentrating, we'll catch everything. The more you catch, the quicker you get off the field.

41:48It is a thing where the more people hate fielding, I think the more time they actually spend in the field because they're not switched off. Yeah, that honestly was one of my, in our dressing room, it was probably one of my biggest jobs was to get, you know, 10 other grown men with egos to do something they really don't want to do. And it's actually quite boring. I field for days at times, right? And then not only just be standing there, but actually bring energy, hustle around, get the bowlers caps, all of that. And then take the half chance because that is actually the most important. Why are you doing the hustling?

42:20Why are you staying alert? Why are you staying alive? Is because when that half chance comes and you take it rather than drop it, Jimmy Anderson, Stuart Broad, Graham Swan are over the moon because we're contributing to them getting off the pitch quicker. And they can then put their feet up and relax because at the end of the day, you need to take 20 wickets to win a test match. So you need your bowlers to win the game for you. Ultimately, batsmen set it up, but the bowlers win it for you. So you need to give these guys the most amount of rest time because come that last innings, they're the ones that are going to be putting their bodies on the line to win you a test match.

42:52And that's a group effort. You can't rely on... The captain's got enough to be dealing with. It can't be him. It can't be the bowlers because you want them saving their energy to be bowling 90 miles an hour and having the, not just the skill set, but the bandwidth and energy to be able to maintain pace, but also skill for long periods of time. So that then falls on the rest of the group, the batters ultimately, and the wicker keeper, to make sure you have that intensity and create an environment that allows the bowlers to be the best they can be. That's the team in a field, how it should function.

43:29Massive difference between the two teams that the fielding was, the energy, the fielding itself, of Labashane, Smith and Carey, absolute standouts in the field, like really set the tone. Smith took a couple of blinders, Labashane took a few blinders and Carey was unbelievable up to the stumps. That was something that I know it's been talked about a little bit, but when you talk about preparing for a series and I think that caught England off guard a little bit because a lot of England's batters like to use their feet. They like to come down the wicket, get to the pitch, the ball to try and manoeuvre it around.

44:02and they would have been thinking with Bowling, Nessa, bowlers like that, that's what we're going to do. The minute he comes up to the stumps, they're trapped. They can't move anywhere. They're on the crease. And I think that caught them off guard a little bit. But it was obviously amazing preparation from Australia to see these guys and know that Crawley likes to come down the wicket, Root likes to come down the wicket, Brook likes to come down the wicket. We're going to come up to the stumps.

44:25James Anderson:Well, that's what Stokes was saying, essentially, is that these teams have now got answers to the way that England are playing cricket. They need to diversify. They need to keep people guessing, find a new dynamic, essentially. Just back on the fielding, Jimmy, you famously love fielding. To your other point, shouldn't... Don't laugh. I know. You do love fielding and that's an amazing... That makes you extra special as one of the greatest ever bowlers, that you love being in the field and contributing. Two points on that. You're really good at it. You worked really hard at it. But that's your job, to be a cricketer.

44:57James Anderson:If you don't like fielding, that's a lot of cricket. It's fielding. So you're probably doing the wrong job, as you said earlier about if you don't like bowling and stuff, you're probably doing the wrong thing. But the other thing is that's when the whole team is on show together. You can see that through the screen. You feel it in the ground. You can see it. That's them giving off signals of like, we're not doing very well here. Like, pretend. You're doing a show. Act. Steve Ward, wasn't it? His comment or quote, well, famous quote was, how a team looks in the field is a window to their soul. Yeah.

45:30That's where you can tell. And we'd see on the sidelines when Cooks batted for two and a half days and bored everyone and KP smashed it. We'd be going, okay, let's wait. How long can they hold? How long can they hold? And then the overthrows would come in and buzzers and all of that. Right, lads, we've got them. Crowd gets on top of them. The minute they stopped hustling, the minute they sort of looked to give up in the field, it wasn't the bowlers. It was the fielders. It was Ben Duckett standing in the shade at deep square leg all day while one of the bowlers is fielding extra cover. If I'm the opposite, I'm looking at that going, he's not in it I saw him signing autographs in the crowd yesterday I was like who duck it I get it like you're trying to sort of get the crowd on side but please can you just switch on make sure you switch on for the next thing I think you're spot on like everyone can see you and the wicket keeper is the one for me where even on TV he's in shot all the time you can see their body language all the time and I think it looked like to me that Jamie Smith was just wearing, it was weighing heavy on him, wasn't it?

46:35The whole, the pressure that he did with the bat and with the gloves, dropped a few catches. It just looked like, you could see him sort of wearing it quite bad.

46:44James Anderson:Well, this is it. It's a cliche to say that the cricket field is a battle ground. I mean, it is essentially. You've got to have those lieutenants with you as a captain. You are an amazing lieutenant to your captains as a wicket keeper. Matt, can you tell us what you've made of Jamie Smith this series? Is he the guy for England going forward? What have you seen that's good? Not so good. What's your take? Well, first and foremost, he's obviously a supremely talented cricketer. I think that's one of the massive frustrations with this group is that it's not about talent or ability. If we were to say, well, we haven't really got anyone that's good enough.

47:19It's a different conversation. But we've got players who have an abundance of ability and talent. Jamie Smith is 100 % one of them. I think what we probably have to question is sort of more mentality, again, culture and what the expectation is. Now, playing test cricket and being a wicketkeeper test level, again, like trying hard is a non-negotiable. Being the drummer in the band is a non-negotiable as a wicketkeeper. Now, people go, yeah, but he's a very quiet guy. He's introverted. That's fine. You don't have to be shouting and screaming. You don't have to say a word. your body language and how you carry yourself and shuttling between overs, getting a bowler's capture, you know, bowler bowling a maiden and running down and tapping him on the back saying, well, bold mate, that's not shouting and screaming.

48:04That's not sledging a batsman. That's nothing. Every ball getting up to the stumps, demanding the ball from a fielder and getting them to throw it right by the batsman's head because that annoys them. You don't have to say a word, but that's an intensity that you can create and should do as the wicketkeeper, because you are the guy that is operating that fielding unit, or you certainly should be. Now, I say he's young. He's not that young. I think also what the big challenge is, because I mean, I've literally been there when you've dropped a catch, it's the worst place on a cricket pitch. If you drop a catch as a fielder, you want the ground to swallow you up.

48:39If you drop it as a wicketkeeper wearing these big gloves and everyone goes, how can you ever drop a catch? It's even worse, right? And you've let the whole team down. You nick off, get an all, you go sit back in the dressing room, you can hide. You bowl a bad spell, you go down to the, you have a drink, you go change your socks, whatever you do. Wicketkeeper, you drop a catch, you're out there for eight hours, whether you like it or not. So the mental challenge of that is huge. And what you tend to do is then internalize. So you drop a catch, you then start questioning your technique. I can't see the ball.

49:06Oh my God, I know the ball's coming to me. Your shoulders tighten up and then you have it all falls apart. And that again, like But bowling, like Jimmy said, comes with experience. It comes with catches off and wicket keepers get better with age. A bit like spin bowlers, right? Because you've been there, you've dropped a catch. You then understand the mentality behind it. Keep your shoulders relaxed. It's okay. You know, you have your process of getting through it. Jamie Smith doesn't yet have that, I don't believe. But more important, and no point. So we talked about Bethel earlier and having front and looking like he wants to get in the battle.

49:36I didn't get that at any point from Jamie Smith. at any point before he dropped a catch. And I watched the next morning, because he was out in Brisbane, he dropped Travis Head, didn't he? Early. And of course, I'm going to be there watching the keepers. So I'm watching Alex Carey with his coach over in the corner, drilling intensity about his training. This is just for the warmup, right? There's an intensity about his training, his work. He's got his routine, et cetera, et cetera. So I'm sort of looking around going, where's the England keeper? Bearing in mind, he's dropped a catch, two catches the day before.

50:07And he sort of swans out with someone because I don't have a keeping coach, I don't have a fielding coach. So I can't remember who it was, maybe Trez, who sort of hit him some balls. And he sort of just stood there and caught a few with no real intensity or technique. I couldn't tell, was he working on something? What is his actual technique? And he was there for five minutes and he walked back in. And I'm thinking, God, if I'm a young lad playing in the Ashes, playing for England, then I've had a bit of a bad day. The next day I'm doubling down on effort and work and trying to be like, okay, what did I not get right?

50:36Because you will have looked at that the day before. You would have going back to your hotel room and sort of thought about it all night, unfortunately, right? And you would have been almost chomping the bit to get back to the ground, say, I need to put that right. And even if you had another mare, skill-wise, you don't mentally, you don't not turn up. You have to put in even more intensity into that. My one issue that I think he will have is that you get better by doing it. Obviously, practice is one thing, but then you've got to do it. He doesn't keep in the one-day team or the T20 team he doesn't keep for Surrey when he plays for Surrey well is that not the main point so his only chance to keep is you know if you think about that and then you've got to keep to Joffre Archer on a bouncy wicket it's like it's not an easy skill and he wouldn't have done that before this is what we're saying about not learning

51:27James Anderson:don't learn I don't know where he learns though I don't know how you can practice and do drills as much as you want but actually I think England play another would he play six or seven tests this year six I think isn't it six how are you going to get better if you're having six when I was out not that it would have made not that it would have made any difference for the for this for this series but I completely agree because we're talking about mentality but actually technically he's poor right there are fundamental basic issues with how he keeps his stance with the bowlers running in he gets wrong footed a lot and they're they're simple fixes for this and he's talented enough to fix it right that goes without saying but again when I was out there I actually Someone got in touch with me and said, would you be prepared to speak to Jamie Smith?

52:11I was like, absolutely. Because what we are all are England fans. We want England to win. If I'm in Australia and there's an opportunity for me to have any influence on one of our players to help in any way, shape, form, I'm there. I would not do the job I'm meant to be doing and go because I'm an England fan. I want England to win. And Jim would be the same. Any ex-player would jump at the chance to help. So I was like, absolutely. here's my number. He knows where I'm. I'm here for the next nine days, whatever it is. I'll wait to hear. Didn't hear anything. Now there might be a million reasons for that, right?

52:47So I don't want to put it, maybe just be like, well, what's he got? He's got nothing to offer or shy or, you know, there could be a number of reasons for that. But I just sort of thought, okay, well, that's interesting. Maybe he's mid-series and that's fine. Maybe we'll catch up when he gets back. But I'd like, you know, because there are simple fixes there, but he has no keeping coach out there, no fielding coach. And I remember when I was playing, I got through that bit where I was actually going pretty well and Bruce French was my keeping coach. And he became, I mean, our partnership was huge.

53:19He changed my career around from a keeping perspective. I remember before a South Africa tour, Andy Flour came to me and said, right, budgets, we're not saying, and it was when we were getting grilled for having massive backroom staff and, you know, Beefy was kicking off about how many people, they're more, you know, staff than there are players and all this sort of stuff. So I think they were sort of worrying about that and it was like, right, Bruce French isn't coming to South Africa. In South Africa, I think we were close to number one. They maybe were number one, we were number two in the world or vice versa.

53:44Massive, massive tour. And I said to Andy, I'm like, I'm sorry? He's like, no, French, there's no budget for it. I said, okay, I need all the dates. I need the logistics and everything else because I will pay for Bruce French to come over. There is no way I'm not having him in South Africa for one of the biggest series. because when I dropped Callis day one of a test match and he goes on and scores 250, what then?

54:07James Anderson:Did you pay for him? ECB did. Good. You've got to hold these people. But this is the thing. But that's a confidence thing, right? That's Jamie Smith not being a keeper, knowing what he actually needs, going, I don't know, do I need a coach? Well, maybe not. If they've said no, then maybe... The question is, does he even want to keep? Does he even want to be a keeper? I don't know. Maybe not. What I will say is no one wants to be a keeper. It's great fun when you're 10. You think I'm always in the game, but it's brutal. You enjoy it. Didn't you enjoy it? I hated it, mate. You hated being a keeper?

54:36I basically stood there panicking and scared for seven hours a day. What are you talking about? I was just sort of like, don't drop it. But you're amazing at it. Please don't drop it. Fooled the world. Not the star. But no one's amazing at the star.

54:50James Anderson:Absolutely shocking. I worked hard and got better. Should they be... Okay, we've got to wrap up in a second, but I could talk to you two all day about this. This is great. In fact, let's go to the pub afterwards. Done. but do England pick a Ben Foulkes as in the best keeper or do they pick someone like Jamie Smith who they're going, this guy is the guy that we want to put in the order somehow. He gets in, well, not on current form, but historically he would have got in on his batting and make him into a keeper. What do you think? I'll throw one out there for you. If you want to keep this sort of mindset and whatever, you know, the attacking sort of aggression sort of thing.

55:32And that's potentially why Ben Foulkes is not in that squad because of his batting style. Could you put Olly Pope at six and let him keep? Because I don't know what you think of him as a keeper, but when he's done it on the odd occasion, probably four or five times for England, he's done fantastically well. I don't know. It's a bit of a... It's going to be a real unpopular opinion, I think. this but would you like the theme tune or probably need to bring Jack Russell back that would be a great the bucket hat love that folks by far is the best wicker keeper there's no argument about that but what he does with the gloves compared to what a Jamie Smith could potentially do with the bat and the runs that they would score which affects the game more that's what I would look at the specialist wicker keeper role is no longer present in test cricket.

56:27You have to be able to average 40 plus with the bat as a wicket to bat six or seven.

56:33James Anderson:We need some openers that can average 40 plus first I'd say as well. Again, this is a bit I've got one. It's a bit like effort. That's sort of a non-negotiable. Maybe Zach Crawley could keep. Come on, mate. No, okay. Go on. Usually your average drops when you keep wicket. If you have a look Alex Stewart said I averaged five more when he wasn't keeping. So I don't think Crawley should be keeping. But back to the point, Jamie Smith has the makings of a very, very good test batsman wicketkeeper. There are some fundamental issues that could be fixed quite easily with, I say quite easily, with work, with effort, with training.

57:12Absolutely. The challenge he has, like Jimmy has rightly said, if he's not even keeping for his county, then where does he do the work? and if he's not keeping for his county then how can you keep for the international team? Like how do you get selected? Like how do you even There's a few like that. Bashir's you know Bashir's in that boat couldn't get in his county team but he's in the England squad so it's I don't think it's an issue for them but it's making sure like we've seen with Bashir on this tour we don't really know the ins and outs of why he's not played but the games that he has played on this tour you know the Lions games he's not been particularly successful but he needs cricket like this is they all I think it's just and this is actually a bigger point maybe for another day but I just think as a rule as a general rule the England team and the ECB need to just open themselves up to county cricket a little bit more and be a little bit more accepting of it accepting that there is some incredibly talented cricketers out there I think it's a it feels like a bit of a a closed shop at the minute with the people they pick you look at the Lions players and it's all potential.

58:20It's all pace. Actually, some fantastically skillful bowlers in county cricket that are getting overlooked because they've not got the pace that they, you know, supposedly want. So I'd just say like, openly say... You're getting very close to bringing up the topic of selectors. That's definitely for another day.

58:38James Anderson:But actually, as Lancashire's captain... Hi. Yeah, hi. You want to be in a dressing room with being able to say to those young players, I can help you on the way. If your ambition is to play for England, this is the right place for you to be. And at the moment you're saying that's not necessarily the case. You want to talk to those young lads and go, I can help you work on your game in order to get up there. And there's a pathway because you feel like the pathway is slightly blocked and it's not even one way, let alone two ways. I'm not saying it's blocked. I'm just saying it feels very different to when I started playing cricket, when Matt started playing cricket, where your championship performances got you recognised with an A Tour or a Lions Tour or an England Tour.

59:25It doesn't feel like that is really the way it's gone or it's going. I'll take an example at length is Josh Bahannon who bats three. He's done Lions Tours in the past and I think he's 27 maybe. Might be doing me a disservice, might be 26. But his thing, his driving force has always been, I want to play for England. I want to try and make myself as good a cricketer as I possibly can be to get in that England team. And now he's thinking, well, it's just not going to happen because of that route doesn't feel like, maybe that route is blocked off. You're right. But I think there's more players like that in the county system who are thinking, you know, what is their driving force?

1:00:05And I think it's a dangerous place to be because of the franchise world at the minute. you get more and more players like we saw James Vince not playing four day cricket last year which again it's an incredible shame for county cricket players like that are leaving the county game but there will be more and more players like that if that route's blocked for one and also I think that the ECB need to invest more into the four day cricket you know I think at the minute the prize money for winning the championship is nothing really there's no sort of incentive for players to go and win that you know when you've got those two things you've no incentive you know you can't see a route into the England team then you're going to get less and less players wanting to play four day cricket

1:00:47James Anderson:you said route in the England team I literally mean that you don't get a route into the England team without the county championship and without county cricket you don't get Joe Root without it no so with this all this Richard Gould stuff of like we'll do a full and frank inquiry yeah they're all there mate yeah all the players are there and people love going to the county I can't wait for the county championship I can't wait to find some, to see some new players. I'm like, oh, that's interesting. That's good. To see some cricket of substance would be so nice. We have, one of the most annoying things about this, Ashes, is we've been starved of actual days of cricket.

1:01:20James Anderson:I'm going to be sitting there. I'm going to come to Northampton on that first day and watch you captain against Northampton for Lanks. I cannot wait for that because we're going to get some proper, put your coat on, sit there. Do you like, do you actually like cricket? if you can sit through this day then you do like cricket and you can pick up some new stars of the future maybe I'll tell you what if you're a county cricketer now and going into pre-season come pre-season coming up you should be so motivated because I think never have you had a better chance of putting your name in the hat of playing cricket for England this summer because it's been found out they've picked players on type rather than performance vibes and I think that's where right now you'd be in the gym you'd be training you'd be in the net you would be going right this is the summer to make my mark in county championship cricket be the top run scorer be the the top wicket taker and force your name in the hat okay thank you both it's been great just chatting to you about this because it's it's good therapy as this has been throughout the whole of the ashes it's good therapy it's good to talk I want to move on and we want England to do well as you said this is all this is all we want and we just want some good cricket that lasts more than two days.

1:02:34James Anderson:Final thing, what are we doing in terms of changes? Or do you think it's too early to just, as Phil Tuffner would say, we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Or are you throwing the baby out with the bathwater, Matt? Are you? I feel like I want to... Please. Go, Jim. Are you throwing the baby out with the bathwater? I don't know what that means. Are you sacking anyone? Are you sacking all of them? McCollum stays? I wouldn't make any drastic changes. I would love, as I've said, I chatted there about the county sort of the championship, just give that a bit more respect and see what's out there.

1:03:14But essentially, I think that there is a really talented squad that went out to Australia. There's no doubt in that, but I'd like to see just a bit more responsibility taken by the players. And I think that's got to be sort of enforced by the coach and the captain. And I think, you know, Ben Stokes has said after the series or during the series as well, that there'll be honest conversations. And you've got to have those. You've got to try and improve. These players have got to improve. You can't keep making the same mistakes like we've been seeing throughout the series. Even a player of Harry Brooks' calibre, I've seen him play some of the best test knocks I've seen.

1:03:54Yet this series, he kept making the same mistakes and looked like a pretty average player. And we all know that he's definitely not that. so it's just I'd like to see him get a fielding coach maybe a wicket keeping fielding coach and another sort of voice in there somehow you know Mike Atherton mentioned Alistair Cook and like it's not it's a bit random but it's not the worst shout as a sort of just a different voice to you know still with the same vision of improving the team and playing a certain way but he just got a different

1:04:24James Anderson:view on cricket Do you mean he's a mentor because he's not he's not actually a coach Alistair Cook No you just mean as a person that should be around. Yeah, you call him what you want, mentor, whatever, but, you know, I'm not saying it should be Alistair Cook. Yeah, yeah. Mike Atherton said it should be Alistair Cook, you know, put through his name in that. I'm just saying a different, like someone in there who's just got a different view, can add something that's slightly different, not just agreeing with what McCollum says and Stoke says, just someone who's got that difference in opinion, create some debate, create some thought among the players of how they can improve, for different things they can do and get the best out of them.

1:05:02Would you do it? I'm playing. Would you ever want to be England coach? Me? I don't know. I've not really thought about that, to be honest. I've not thought about what we're going to have for my dinner, let alone past that. So, yeah, I mean, in the future, maybe. I don't know. If coaching is the route that I go down after playing, then I suppose everyone's got a goal, something to aspire to so if I went into coaching I'd want to take on or work up to one of the top jobs as any person does in whatever career they go into you want to be get to the top.

1:05:45James Anderson:I like that answer and I also believe you because well I've known you for so long and I remember when we were saying about your retirement and you said I haven't really thought about it and you genuinely hadn't and that's how your brain works Matt, if they asked you to be part of the setup, would you go in and do a wicket keeping role? I mean, yeah, obviously I'd love to help out. Like I've just said, I'd love to help out in any way, shape or form. I think for me, this group, you live by the sword, you die by the sword in professional sport, ultimately. And they've gone about it their way and they've been found wanting.

1:06:21So usually what would happen is those people that were responsible for the decisions made would be judged on the performance and then hired or fired on that basis. So therefore you would expect people would lose jobs. Now, none of us want people to lose jobs. A lot of these people are mates, ex-teammates, et cetera, et cetera. But the reality is if you have a look at this as a business, which it is ultimately, then changes need to be made. For me, it's almost above McCullum and the Stokes because the people that made the decision to give them so much power and kind of free reign to do what they wanted, I think is where we went slightly wrong.

1:06:59If we're going to replace McCullum and Stokes, you've got to replace them with people we believe are better. So if McCullum goes, who's coming in? Justin Langer's a name that's bandied about and I think would be fantastic because he's He's the opposite end of the McCollum style approach. And for young talented cricketers, I think his intensity and ability not to walk away from pressure and everything else might be the thing that would galvanise this group and get the most out of their ability. But would he do it? He's out and out Aussie. I'm not sure he would. So it comes back to, okay, who's going to be the England coach?

1:07:36Who's going to do a better job than McCollum? And for me, actually, it's about putting someone in there with them, potentially above them, that says, right, I like the positivity. I like what you're trying to do here, but it now needs to be, there are some parameters around it. We can't run away from pressure. It's international cricket. It's international sport. You have to perform or you're out, right? You can't keep walking off, nicking off, going, oh, well, that's how I play. That's gone. This culture needs to change. and within these parameters, this is how we're going to move forward. And if you don't like that, that's your call.

1:08:09No worries. You can make your decision. I think the other thing for me is that, and why that's important and why I mentioned selectors, why there's only one selector is interesting. I think there should be three, potentially bowling specific, batting specific, and then the MD or the coach or whatever it may be. The reason for that is you want conversation. You want challenge. You want to sit in a room and go, right, England team, who are we picking? And you want that to last four hours because you've got real passionate debate over players and who should be going, who should be on that plane. Not just a couple of people going, they have a dart and kind of, now I'm underplaying it.

1:08:49I'm sure that is not how it happened. But you need challenging voices within that group of selectors, management, because that's ultimately what gets the best out of not only the individuals, but the group as a whole, in my view. So whatever that looks like, I would look to put that in place.

1:09:10James Anderson:It's very interesting times ahead. Very interesting. Well, I'm sure we'll talk more about it on future episodes because this is not done. It's only it's raw. It's fresh. Matt Pryor thank you so much for your time today loved having you on Tailenders Jimmy great to get your insight into everything and to talk about county cricket and just to pick over the bones of this thing this game that we love so much arguably too much but that's the problem isn't it when you love something you can't help falling in love unfortunately we've all fallen in love with this stupid game thank you for watching Tailenders on iPlayer and YouTube for the dedicated old-fashioned listeners to an audio product.

1:09:54James Anderson:This will continue for 10 more minutes probably with Matching Tendulka. But for you watching, goodbye. Go well. Cheers. I quite enjoyed that. It did feel quite cathartic. Nice. Glad you enjoyed it. Did you not enjoy it? Yeah, I did, yeah. Loved it. Good to get your thoughts. When you get so many thoughts in your head and you hear so many opinions on stuff, you obviously gather your own opinions and to get them out in the open was... Yeah, it's nice to think about what you think, not just going, what does Michael Vaughan think of everything? What do I think about it? I don't know. I feel like we need a few more hours, mind.

1:10:30James Anderson:We do need to go to the pub and do this. I'll tell you what. I would like to know what Matching Tendulka thinks about the whole thing. Hello. Hello. How are you doing? Matt meet Matching. Do you know about Matching Tendulka, Matt Pryor? Bits and bobs. Yeah, that means no. Matching Tendorka is genuinely related to Sachin Tendorka, even though he is a six for eight white Bristolian man. Matching, there's a lot of stuff going on with you anyway. On a base level, there's a lot going on. But we heard news this week that has shocked, it's fair to say, the football world. It's rocked it, yeah. Probably short, so on Sky Sports News, Basically, I was playing on Saturday.

1:11:18James Anderson:It was like the Arctic Tundra on the Bristol Downs. And I've pinged my hamstring. And this might be the end of my football career. That is a shame. That is a shame. I've had a few taps on the shoulder. And I think this might be the end. You sound quite down about that, actually, Matt. Well, I am because I'm on 238 career goals. I'm wanting to get to 250. Oh, wow. Looking long way off, actually. It's been like a very long way off these days. have you have you have you properly like ruptured your hamstring was it just a little tweak yeah no it's not a tweak it's more than that but you've done this before haven't you yeah i did it um when i was in croatia when i was water skiing same hamstring so who knows again it's very similar to what we're talking about with felix the end of this dreadful ashes series where players are limping home we're also falling apart at the seams felix has got viral bronchitis you haven't got a hamstring where you know this is tough i'll tell you the only one that hasn't been sick is jimmy anderson or been off yeah that's true speaks volumes i mean i wasn't ill i was just i was just christmas on it that's the first episode in eight years i've missed give me a break but what we all need here is for you to introduce matt prior to maybe your best ever game this is what we'll we're going to end this episode on a true high this is the real ashes we've won in terms of ashes related games explain okay so basically sharky said his wife mother shark mummy shark his her favorite point of the ashes was my quiz am i lying so in honor of nathan lion maybe his last australian ashes we're gonna dust off for one last time and play am i lying or am my Nathan Lyon.

1:13:06This is a game, Matt, just to explain that much like, um, Whoopi Goldberg in the film Ghost, I am possessed by the spirit of Nathan Lyon. Um, I'm going to give you a fact. Who isn't dead, by the way. You are, you are, because he's got hamstring injury as well, hasn't he, Nathan Lyon? Oh my God, maybe it was a sympathy. Um, I'm going to give you a fact, and you just have to guess whether I'm talking about myself, Nathan Lyon, or is it a fact about another player in the Australian test squad? Are you ready? I think so.

1:13:36James Anderson:let me tell you this you might say you might say you're ready but you on no one can be ready for this theme tune absolutely filthy let's play am i lying or am i

1:13:57okay greg james greggo gregulator greg balls of fire how you doing copper oh good thanks mate

1:14:05James Anderson:But what I would like is to hear the theme tune again because this was in my head all Christmas. Well, you're going to hear it lots. Don't worry about that, mate. It's coming straight up. Now, listen, listen, Grego. Don't pigeonhole me, right? People reckon all I do is bowl off, spin, and drink VB. But I've got other talents, right? For example, I'm a writer. I'm bloody Shakespeare, mate, right? I've had two fiction books published. I'm a fully-fledged author, mate. Proper books, words, pictures, the lots are easy. Am I lying or am I lying? Is Nathan Lyon a published author? He's probably got some sort of autobiography, maybe.

1:14:49No, fiction books, mate. Fiction. Two fiction.

1:14:52James Anderson:I think that's somebody else. I don't think that's Nathan Lyon. I don't think. Unless it's a story about a young gardener or curator. No, I think you're lying. I'm Nathan Lyon, mate. I've had two children's books published. They're loosely based on how I grew up hard yakker dreaming big, but inspirational stuff, mate. Pen is my sword. Am I lying? Lying. Am I lying? Or am I Nathan Lyon? Matt Pryor. Pryzey. Pryze fighter. How goes it, mate? Pryze fighter. Pryze fighter. Just excited for this. Here we go, mate. Before I made it as a cricketer, right, I dabbled in television, right? When I was a tacker, I was a Channel 9 cameraman operating the infrared hotspot camera down at the Gabba.

1:15:44And during the 2010 Eshes, I was literally behind the lens for Peter Sittle's birthday hat trick. I kept it that moment for broadcast. I filmed it, mate. Now, am I lying or am I lying? No. No.

1:15:59James Anderson:What do we think? No, no, no. 2010 no no no not Nathan lying that's that's that's a lie I would suggest lying I'm lying mate that's not me that's my mate minus we have a shame though labo labo at the gabbo from working the hot spots to being a hot shot am I lying am I lying or am I Nathan lying now who's up next Jimbo Jimbo Jimbo Jimbo Jimbo Jimbo Jimbo Jimbo Jimbo There you go, mate. Journey cricket. Cricket. Okay, here it goes. Right. It's not just me to play his cricket, right? Runs in the family, runs deep. My brother is a professional batting coach. And when I was absolutely battling with the stick, he outcoached me back to form.

1:16:48So when I need help with the bat, I'll turn to him. I couldn't do it without my little nappo baby brother. Am I lying or am I lying? Does that ring a bell? Oh, God, it rings so much. sort of belt but I'm thinking if he coaches Nathan Lyons batting then he must be a really **** coach.

1:17:13Come on. I'm going to go. Come on mate. Come on. Oh God. Why does it ring a bell? Come on mate. Call it. I'm going to go Nathan Lyon. Oh Nathan Lyon mate. That's right. That's my brother Brendan. Wow. Brenda. You got a Brendan, me, mate, love the fella. He runs Lion Coaching Academy. He's my brother Brendan. Am I Lion? Am I Lion? Am I Lion? Am I Nathan? All right, we've got to wrap this up, guys. I've got one more. Go on, man. This is for all of you guys, right? Right. I've got a strange ritual, right, when I bat, right? I can't stand seeing my shoelaces, right? May a thousand blossoms bloom, but laces make my skin crawl, right?

1:17:58So I've got the kit man, right? What I do, I wrap my laces around my shins and then I tape them down so I don't have to look at those filthy little strings flapping about. Absolute nightmare fuel. Am I lying or am I lying?

1:18:12James Anderson:Is he that sort of guy? That feels like a Steve Smith thing. That's a Steve Smith. Is it? It feels like a Steve Smith thing more than it does a Nathan Lyon thing. We think that's a Steve Smith thing. We think you're lying. I am lying. That is a Steve Smith thing. Weird bloke, great platter. Anyway, for the last time, I've been Nathan Lyon. You've been filthy. Sing along with me. Am I lying? Am I lying? Am I lying? Or am I Nathan Lyon?

1:18:46James Anderson:You know you've peaked again. This is great news for the podcast. You know, you can surprise yourself. and that you're still getting better matching. Like you're basically Joe Root. Just when you think he's reached the top of the mountain, he hits another amazing hundred and then another one and then saves the day again. And I think, you know, sky's the limit for you. Cheers, mate. Still being Nathan Lime. Cheers, mate. I really enjoyed the podcast. I was listening in. That's some great stuff. Jelly Bean Gate. Some good stuff there, wasn't there? Great stuff. Jelly Bean Gate. Fascinating. I never knew anything about that.

1:19:25James Anderson:I love Jelly Bean Gate. Feels quite match encoded, that. Yeah. It's the sort of thing that you would throw jelly beans at people. He'd look good as a jelly bean on the back of a paper, I reckon. You would be a good jelly bean, actually. I've always thought that.

1:19:39James Anderson:We've got to get out of here. Matt Pryor's got a life to lead. And Jimmy, what are you doing? TNT or something? Yeah. Go to TNT Sports. You just regurgitate all the stuff you just said here, but with slightly less humour. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Go wells and then we'll get out of here New tail enders These are human being babies Thank you matching You don't know about the go wells probably Matt Pryor Whenever anyone says go well you reply with cheers So you just Do you want to do the go wells and then Matt you do the cheers Why doesn't Matt do the go well Okay you say go, you shout go well And then Jimmy will shout cheers Shout You can shout if you like New tail enders Babies Matt, where are you?

1:20:22James Anderson:Baby! Hey, babies. I found a baby out of the bar for one. Otterly, Connie, Pippa, Ruby, Bebe, Ivor, Felix, Sella and Thea. Go well. Cheers. Cricket clubs. Human being cricket clubs. Ekington cricket club. Ekington's got to be Northern, hasn't it? Oh, Ekington. Oh, muddy Ekington. Muddy Ekington. Bath Cricket Club under 13s, especially Arlo, who opens the batting. Dorset BLT. No, B-E-L, not BL, not bacon, lettuce and tomato. B-E-L-T, bacon, egg, lettuce and tomato. B-E-L-T Cricket Club. Ireland under 19s. Is that not belt? It is belt, but it's capitalised. I don't know what that means. What do you think that means?

1:21:12James Anderson:It means you've got to shout it. Dorset, belt! Cricket Club. Ireland under-19s who are off to a training camp in SA South Africa which is S.A. Sam ahead of the under-19 World Cup Go well Cheers Engagements Human being engagements Becky and Sam Alex and Grace Alex is trying to get Grace into cricket as part of the plan had tickets for day four of Jimmy's final match at Lord's the game ended on day three David and Katie as well Go well to all of you Go well Cheers birthdays human being birthdays Fizz who is recovering from a fractured ankle sustained while playing rugby for a laugh Spencer is 50 not out and celebrated at the SCG and also Wayne Madsen who celebrated a birthday on the 2nd of January did he?

1:22:03James Anderson:how old is he? has he caught me up? I reckon he might be 39 or 40 I think he might be 40 Wayne Madsen? is he older than that? I think he's my age is he? maybe a year younger he might be a year younger I think maybe his 41st or 2nd birthday what do you reckon what's Wayne Madsen 42 41 42 he's the Italian now 42 42 he's younger than me looks older I can't wait for Lanks Derby again yeah that's the big one Lanks Derby shit Wayne Madsen Duncan is listening to the back catalogue and has worked out that using his current listing rate he will have caught up in 6 ,480 hours 26 minutes and 17 seconds time.

1:22:47James Anderson:Go well. Go well. Cheers. Go well and get well to our very own Felix White, also our very own Matchin Tendulka. Also, Gilly is undergoing a hip operation. Hip hop operation. Bungle is also having a hip op. Oh, our listeners, that's f***ing old. They're all getting hip operations. What is going on? Jesus. We used to be the Young Bucks. Now we're just playing out in the f***ing old people's homes. Anyway, go well to all of you. Cheers. And also, if you're, Bungle's moving house for a laugh as well. Whilst having a hip operation? At the same time, yeah. Go well. He's probably moving to an old people's home.

1:23:24James Anderson:And move well to James and Holly who went to the SCG in full Tailenders merch. Thank you, James and Holly. That is great word spreading. Go well. Cheers. Connor now lives in Toronto and was given Jimmy's book for Christmas. He read it and has now left it in a book swap box in the hope of spreading the cricket slash Tailenders message in Canada. Go well. Cheers. And snip well. This is Googly News. Matt Pryor, this is where we shout out people who are having vasectomies. Oh. That's the correct response. Oh. Oh, don't know what to do with that. And that is for Ben. Go well. Cheers. Snip well. Thank you for listening to this Tailenders episode.

1:24:04James Anderson:That was, thank God for that, the ashes. And it didn't quite go well, which is a shame. But you're very welcome to us when we're not doing the ashes stuff. we'll be back next week you can listen on BBC Sounds you can email tailenders at bbc.co.uk and we'll be back very soon thank you for everybody cheers Madsen cheers cheers Jimmy cheers cheers Matt cheers go world cheers 5 Live Sports WSL our referee for this afternoon blows her whistle we are on the way there and the opening goal and she is able to just pick her spot curls its way past the best goalkeeper in the division BBC Women's Football Weekly.

1:24:46The latest news, insights and analysis from across the women's game. Lucy Bruns, welcome back. What one lioness do you think would make the best rugby player? Me? Listen. With the BBC Sounds app. How did a boy called Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos?

1:25:04James Anderson:On Good Bad Billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr Beast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100 ,000 on camera. And even recreated Squid Games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man$10 ,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on Good Bad Billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.