So you’re saying there’s a chance?

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1:03Hello and welcome to Tailenders. Hello and thank you for having us on Tailenders, your loosely cricket-based podcast all through the ashes. Usually on BBC iPlayer and YouTube in vision. Today, just good old-fashioned audio. And there's nothing wrong with that.

1:24Tailenders have assembled before the second test match at Brisbane. and this is G-Force Greg James. Over there we have Jimmy Anderson, sir. Jimmy Anderson, sorry. And Felix White. On today's episode, we will be talking about the very sad news about Robin Smith that we learnt today, which is horrendously sad. And we'll dedicate this episode to Robin Smith and we'll talk more about that great player in just a bit. We also want to talk about the change to the team for Brisbane. In fact, why don't we start there? this is someone that we've talked about quite a lot on the podcast this is will jacks aka will jacks of all trades who has come in for technically the injured mark wood but he's come in as a well he is we know him as a an amazing batter but he has appears to have been picked a little bit off the back of his off spin but he's a batter i don't know jimmy what what is your take on this as a as a bowler and someone who knows this England team very well he is a very very much a part-time off spinner yeah I think he's I think he's probably a little bit better than a part-time off spinner but saying that I feel like England have picked him more for the batting depth than his bowling if that makes sense I think I feel like they've thought right the spinners records the Gabba over the years?

2:50Do we need a, like is a frontline spinner actually going to do any better job than a, you know, slightly less frontline one, a part-time one if you want? So I think that's what they're thinking. They'd rather have the strength in the batting, strengthen that and have the option of spin. I don't think they're expecting to get a huge amount of overs out of Will Jacks. Interesting. They'll want the four seamers to do the bulk of the work. But I think that's what they're thinking is because, yeah, like I said, the last couple of times we've played in Brisbane, the spinners haven't had a great time there.

3:21Well, even thinking back to even like Graham Swan, when we had him, you know, further back than that, who would it be? Ashley Giles, maybe. You know, I don't think there's anyone that's particularly stood out there. I think Lyon's got a good record there, but again, he's got a slightly different method of going about things. He bowls around the wicket, gets bounced and he's found a method that works for him there. I think he's actually the third highest test wicket taker at the Gabba. Oh, good facts. So I think having a spinner is good, but yeah, I feel like it's the baton they wanted to strengthen.

3:52Jim, do you think they would have reflected that maybe having five seamers, in your experience, if Stokes is fitting and a player part, do you think sometimes you're almost trying to fit all those seamers in when if you got four firing quicks, that's kind of enough? Do you think that would have played into the thinking? Yeah, I do think it's, having played in a five-man seam attack, I do think it's hard to get the best out of everyone in a five-man attack. and as we mentioned we mentioned it on the review of the last test there's no chance to actually change the pace of the game it's just fast fast fast all the time sometimes you need to just take the sting out of the game and bring on someone who's a little bit different maybe a slower bowler or a spinner so I think this gives them that option but yeah I mean think about it last time I, not last time I played there but when we did well there in Australia I'm sure we had a three man attack three seamers and a spinner but obviously now the make-up of the team is very different, having an all-rounder in there and Ben Stokes helps but yeah, it'll be interesting I feel like it's sort of a positive pick because he is such an aggressive player both with bat and ball Great that he can bat at eight but also you've tipped him to bat at maybe three at some point so this is a guy who's versatile and could give you a bit of variety with the bowling as you were saying so we've got Crawley, Duckett, Pope Root, Brooke, Stokes, Jamie Smith at seven, Will Jacks maybe at eight, Gus Atkinson nine, Bryden Kass at ten and Joffre Archer at eleven.

5:23It's eight batters and three bowlers in an ashes test. It just, my initial thing, with Ben Stokes obviously as one of the bowlers, but you never know how many he wants to bowl or can bowl. My initial reaction, and it might be just thinking in the old way, is there might be a lot of overs they might have to get through with three frontline seamers. But then these test matches aren't lasting, are they? So maybe that doesn't even matter anymore. Maybe none of it matters anymore. Maybe this is... I'm excited that Will Jacks is going to get a go out, though. It's a new abnormal, you're saying, Greg.

5:59It's the new abnormal. That's what everyone's saying. The dynamics in a test team. What do you think, Jim? Yeah, it's different, isn't it? I don't really know what to think until, you know, it could be a stroke of genius when you see the way the game goes, but it's so hard to predict, especially after the first test. It didn't go anywhere near the way people thought. But yeah, I mean, the worry for me is how good their bowlers' records are with the pink ball in their own conditions. I just feel like that is why they want that extra bit of batting down the order. Yeah. And it's a different style of test cricket as well.

6:37It's got a different way of working itself out. Typical test match, more often than not, the first couple of hours is difficult for the batters because the new ball, morning conditions, there might be a bit of movement there. Whereas I always feel like day-night cricket, because it's in the afternoon, it's an afternoon start, especially in Australia, that's often when the wicket's at its best. so then your seam has come into it or potentially can come into it a little bit later in the day. Yeah, you took four out there, I think, the last time we were there in date night and in my memory, did you, in four innings?

7:12I remember... Five, mate. Was it five? When I see the... I count them. When I see those wickets, it was all in the evening session. Do you feel like England will miss someone that can really shape the ball? I know Ben Stokes at moments can really hoop the ball but do you think they might miss that dynamic of someone that can move the ball late on a third session like you've got the ball to move? I think they've got the bowlers that can do it. I think Gus Atkinson can do it. Joffre can get movement. Briding Cars can swing the ball as well. I think they've got the bowlers to be able to, you know, they've got the skills to be able to get as much movement as they can out of the conditions.

7:50But again, this is why it's different, day-night cricket, because I think I got, out of the five rickets I got, I think about three one evening or two one evening and then they've got the rest the next afternoon. So it isn't just in the evening when you get movement, you can get it in the day as well. It's just about managing certain periods when it is flat. How do you get, you know, work your way through that? You're sort of limiting the damage till you get into those positions where the ball's moving around. Jimmy mentioned the unbelievable record of the Aussie bowlers in day-night test cricket.

8:23I don't know if I want to read these out to the table. listeners. I don't know if I want to, but I do because it is really interesting and astounding, actually. So, England have not won at the Gabba since 1986. England have never won a day-night test match in Australia. And this is why. Mitchell Stark averages 17 with a pink ball. He's taken 81 wickets. Josh Hazlewood averages 18.5, 40 wickets. Pat Cummins, 43 wickets at 17.34. And Scott Boland averages 13. He's with a pink ball. He's taken 18 wickets. So it is going to be difficult. And that does back up Jimmy's theory, which is that England need, maybe we should have picked 11 batters.

9:14So you're saying there's a chance. There's always a chance. And there's always hope. And always the hope will kill us. Yeah. Well, that's interesting with the pick, isn't it? Because in some ways it might have been, And you know you're saying it's an attacking move, but in some ways it's just to shore up that idea of a middle order collapse or one or two of those get into a rhythm just to have jacks at eight probably gives you a little bit more solidarity. Well, what it does mean is now that we can also potentially have a lower order collapse. Oh, exciting. Which will be a positive on the last game.

9:46So that's, you know. Yeah, exactly. What I will say, because I feel like we do need a few positives in there. Yes, please. they are due a bad game Australia can't bowl well all the time Jimmy your initiation to becoming a fan of Test Cricket is now complete because that's how we think based on nothing they're just due one yeah blind optimism they really are I've been watching all the press conference stuff that's coming out today I haven't seen anything today you're going to have to catch me up well they're sort of Ollie Pope's been sort of defending you know having a nice time and going to play golf and all the rest of it which is completely fair enough.

10:25They have to have a life outside the game. And the other one was Ben Stokes. I know what he was getting at, but he said, you know, we want to enjoy the country while we're here. You know, it's cold and dark and miserable back home. By 4pm, it's dark. And I'm sitting there watching it being like, yeah, and cricket cheers us up. Get out there and play some. Yeah, play a lot of cricket. Yeah, exactly. We're in it. You're in Australia. Australia we're sat here with nothing to watch yeah gaslight situation but I also know exactly what he's trying to say yes it came out like that what else is going on yeah can I can I ask Jimmy can I ask a technical question my technical question is why is Mitchell Stark so good with the pink ball it looks like almost like he's artificially made it feels like ai that he's just that action is so smooth and rhythmic that it almost feels like as soon as it comes out his hand it's gonna nick someone off yeah well i think he's got a lot of attributes to to have success with a pink ball like what clearly he's got pace he's got really good pace he never drops like this is the one thing i don't know if we spoke about this on the last podcast but people saying oh get the bowlers into their third and fourth spells these are international athletes they're not like they don't drop off mitchell stark's pace does not drop off when he gets into his fourth and fifth spell yeah so i think that's you know he's got that in his locker his pace he can hoot the ball when it's when the ball does swing and as we saw in the last test he's now mastered this wobble scene where he was getting scene movement across the right handers and nicking people off so i think having those skills it's like quite simple it's not like there's no rocket science behind any of it but it's just being consistent and relentless in where you bowl the ball and he's he's just got brilliant at that and and i think also like like i know when you someone's got a record like that it looks incredible he must bowl well all the time but he does have spells where he goes at six and over he might bowl four overs for 30 or something like that but when he gets on a roll similar to stuart broad in a way but when he gets on a roll he just senses it and goes to the jugular and he gets and he picks up wickets in clusters the other bit of positive news actually is if we look back to last january the west indies did beat australia yeah at the gabba yeah great day nighter as well and all it took was some ferocious fast bowling from shammar joseph and so it's it's doable it's as it's difficult to bat for both teams.

13:08So if you've got Joffre Archer, you know, hooping it around all over the place. If you've got Brydon Kass on good form, if you've got Gus Atkinson who can really hit the deck and get it nibbling around, then actually, we could be all right. That could be, it could be brilliant. It's a great point. I mean, firstly, when Jimmy was talking about Mitchell Stark, then I was having in my mind's eye, there probably are not many greatest sights in sport. I hope we don't see it too much than Mitchell Stark's pink ball late in swinger. Hopefully we don't see that so much. But also to your point, Greg, like I have been thinking that recently.

13:44I don't know if I'm just sort of kidding myself or we're all just getting into the sort of kidology that actually we're in it. But the more and more I think about the first game, the more and more I just feel like it was two days cricket. We won one day big and they won one day bigger. There aren't actually that many reasons that we should feel like it's a lost cause. The only jeopardy really is that they have to win this game because I don't think even they'll believe that at 2-0 they'll go and win the Ashes 3-2. You know, so that's the jeopardy this week is that we have to win this game knowing that it's probably not going to a draw and just how that's going to play in all their heads.

14:25What I'm looking forward to as well is that you can get up about 6-7 and watch most of the day. Yes. So when do you get up for your show, Greg? Do you get up at 5? Well, I'm up at five. So you'll see most of the cricket. Yeah. I'm going to knock it a bit earlier on Thursday and Friday. Yeah. Watch the first hour, then get ready. Then I'll be in and out. So good. I'll be watching it throughout the whole. So you're pretty much the everyday. Yeah. Like in the peripheries or whatever while you're doing. So when you're doing your show, you have, you have the cricket on in the background. Yes. Yes. Yes.

14:58Yes. Well, this is, it doesn't happen very often. In fact. Exactly. You're only going on for a day. Yeah. Yeah, so that is fine. I was going to ask a question to both of you. What is your answer when cricket mates of yours or cricket adjacent friends that know that you love cricket come up to you and go, what about our first test, eh? What about our first test? What is your answer? Because mine is, it doesn't count. We start. It doesn't. Because it's too, it was not enough. The sample size was too small to go, oh, that's going to, that's what's going to happen for the rest of the series. So what's your answer, both of you?

15:33go on Jim what have I been saying I think I've been going like I just didn't think it was a great test all round I thought both teams were pretty average it just wasn't a great start so hopefully we'll get a bit because I mean the whole thing about test cricket the whole thing about the Ashes is you want those stories to build up throughout the series you know you want something to come out of it whether it's like an unbelievable passage of play with Stark Bowling to Stokes and he's grafting it out and he's getting the boundary away and Stark might get him out but he gets 100 in the second. You want these like stories to come through, don't you?

16:11Absolutely. And we didn't have any of that. Didn't even get a nursery rhyme out of it. Like it was that quick. Yeah. So I just want a bit more. I want some meat on the bone in the next game. I want a bit of something to happen. So that's why I said, I've just been saying I didn't really enjoy it from that sort of perspective. As a spectacle, yeah. I'm coming up to you. I'm an indie fan, right, at the stage door. I've got a little roll in. Right, I go, hey, Phil, what did you make that first test, eh? Why are you Steve LeVac? What did you make? Oh, I'll stay. Felix, what did you make of that first test match, eh?

16:52It's kind of over and done within a blink of an eye. I'm sorry, mate. I've been catfishing the bottom in. Steve actually sent me a van the other day. I've got to listen to that. But what would I say if Steve Lamac or any other indie fan came up to me, smoking a rollie and said that? I'll say very much what I just said then actually. It's almost like if you think about it, the first test is a tennis match. It's one set all. It was over so quickly. You can't even read it. It was just one day each. They've just beaten us big at a second time. And for the people like me who have been watching cricket a long time and want to get romantic and find narrative patterns and stuff.

17:35I really do feel like the similarity to take from an English perspective, if you're being very hopeful, is the same way Freddie, Harmison, Hoggard and Jones rocked them at Lourdes and left the mark on Ponting, rushed Langer for pace. Even though Australia won that game and all the press was saying, here we go again, we have done the same to that batting order. So I think that is the difference is that Australia will know that we can scare them and go through them if conditions are right. So I think that's why it's still to play for. But I would echo what Jimmy says is that all we want, all we ask for, having talked about this for four years, is that there actually is some cricket.

18:21Yeah. Because we feel very robbed of actually having something to get your teeth into at the moment. and we've talked about it so much for two days cricket. It's like all the chat's been about a one dayer. It's like, you know, we need something substantial in this test to get us all like clicking again. Because we live in England where it's miserable, freezing cold and dark at 4pm. So give us some cricket then. Exactly. Okay, my f***s. Zach Crawley's going to get 50. There's going to be 100 opening partnership at least. Okay. Well, Jax is getting a ton. Okay. And Gus Atkinson's getting five. Oh, wow.

19:00And England are going to win. And what about day two?

19:05That's the first session. Yeah, it's like quick cricket. Yeah. It ends before the end of day one. Anyway. First test done. Second test. So it starts on the 4th. So that's Thursday, which will be tomorrow, but early. Okay, so four o 'clock in the morning. The third test is the 17th of December. We've got tail enders plans for that. We're all doing a sleepover at Jimmy's house. Yeah, brilliant. Cannot wait for that. What a night. In the cinema room. Very excited for that. Fourth test, Christmas Day slash Boxing Day. Fifth test, 3rd of January as well. So there's loads of cricket still to come. And let's not be down on it.

19:50Let's not be down on it yet. If they lose again, we'll reconsider. How down on it we are. This is a live situation. Ever-changing. This is summer at its peak. Whole Foods Market Summer Fruit Fest is your invitation to eat the season. Fresh, organic and bursting with flavor. Start your day with peaches and organic blueberries and yogurt. Build a grazing board with fresh fruit, prosciutto and artisanal cheese. Then fire up the grill with no antibiotics ever, proteins and fresh produce. Savour the season. Shop Summer Fruit Fest at Whole Foods Market. How did a boy called Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos?

20:33On Good Bad Billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr Beast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100 ,000 on camera. And even recreated Squid Games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man$10 ,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on Good Bad Billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

21:04So Robin Smith has very sadly died at the age of 62. We found out this morning. It came through on the Tailender's WhatsApp group about 11 o 'clock and all of us just suddenly had to sit down a minute and go, that's horrible that's really really sad news so we send all our love to robin smith's friends and family he played 62 tests between 1988 and 1996 he scored just over 4 000 runs average 43 he spent his entire county career at hampshire and scored wait for it 26 153 first class runs a run machine jimmy my sources tell me that you played against him do you remember that and on a larger scale what do you remember about him as a as a cricketer who you no doubt watched when you were growing up yeah well i think like growing up in the 80s and 90s as we did when england weren't necessarily that great he stood out as someone who was great you know he could have got into other international teams around the world and you couldn't really say that about many players I don't think in that era yeah but just I love the way he played he had he had sort of everything you want in a test cricketer test a test top three batter he had the guts he had the shots and he could build innings he could take attack an attack apart he just had had it all and I thought it was great to watch used to love watching him play and I feel like I played against

22:38Hampshire against Lancashire Amazing So yeah I mean I didn't really come across him that much in the world of cricket but everything you hear from people who played with him who knew him from that era just heaped praise on him about what an amazing bloke he was and what an amazing cricketer he was so such sad news and I think I did see a stat that Sharky would like I think we talk a lot about partnerships in cricket and when he batted with Alan Lamb they averaged almost 80 oh whoa did they for their wicket yeah oh that is which is incredible my memories of him were that he wouldn't ever wear a visor yeah often wouldn't wear a helmet but he would also never get out the way of the ball he would always take it on and as you were saying he was a very brave player a very courageous batter and just so gritty in the way that we talk about Graham Thorpe, very different types of players, but very similar attitudes to just getting stuck in really.

23:39And he was just so fun to watch. He was one of those players that you would, when you're watching on telly, you wouldn't ever want to walk away if Robin Smith was walking to the crease. You'd go, oh my God, Robin Smith's in. Something amazing might happen here. And it was also incredibly classy and his telly was incredible. It was not in any way, even though he was quite a rugged kind of dogged player some of those shots were just just beautiful to watch weren't they yeah you're absolutely right what both of you just said i i it's and it is similar to graham for greg in that i do reflect on those characters and robin smith is absolutely one of the main players where i genuinely don't think i would have loved test cricket if if those people weren't in front of me like there's very famous images which i can still see for some reason i always see robin with batting in a white helmet but there's loads of photos of him in the blue one without the visor where he'd be taking on those West Indian quicks and he'd be jumping as if he was intending to play the ball and then lowering his hands and getting out of the way at the right at the last second which was always it's always such a sort of action hero type thing and he had he had all of that sort of film style quality that people like Graham Thorpe did and he told you through the television how tough test cricket was and how tough he was through it and the other thing i'll just quickly say on the back of that is if people haven't read his book the judge it's got that famous photo beautiful front cover but it's a unbelievably arresting start of a cricket book and tells you what is different about cricketers and cricket books actually where the book starts i think he's in his late 40s and life has not gone how he wants it to go after playing cricket and he's pretty much sleeping rough and over drinking and it starts with him in that situation and it's unbelievably vulnerable exposed brutal entry into a book but it really told you something about everything that he had to survive in cricket and the way opposites could occasionally be at play for what we assumed on Robin off of the pitch as well.

25:49I never met him or anything like that. Like Jimmy says, everyone said he's an amazing person, but I would just recommend anyone to read that book because when we were doing Jimmy's book, we're thinking about that, about how you could talk about a cricketer from outside of cricket and make that the character required inside a test match really like sharpen your focus and not need to be into cricket. And there aren't many better examples and definitely the opening of that book is wild. So yeah, but also really good player, wasn't he, Jim? Like really take attacks on as well as all this sort of rugged, stubborn stuff.

26:25Yeah, I feel like the images that stick in my mind were him against the West Indies in the Caribbean in the 90s, the Test match. Obviously they had a good attack in those days, but just the cut shot, his cut shot was just unbelievable. The ball, like the cameras couldn't follow the ball. It was hit that hard to the boundaries, that quick on it. and yeah just the helmet with the earpieces and stuff like that just incredible and yeah i did so i played against him in 2002 he was captain of hampshire wow my first season and i got him out in the second innings did you yeah how was he out caught fair brother no way caught fair brother so that was the that was the year he retired then 2003 no i think he played 2003 yeah we didn't play him in the oh sorry did you say in 2002 you played him right yeah 2002 four-day cricket and He retired in 2003, yes.

27:15Yeah, yeah, so he played the next season. Do you know what's really interesting as well is that we were doing, for like last week, we were talking about doing social stuff, something after an episode, and we were talking about lining up today's England XI against old cricketers and like saying, who would you rather have? And it came up that at three, the one we should have with Robin Smith. And I think that was just interesting that that randomly came up because he did epitomise a lot of the stuff that we're talking about this England team. he did epitomise the opposite as a cricketer like unbelievably good decision making there for a long time would stare you down so he had all of that sort of aggressive instinct but he characterised something about test cricket that was sold to us that isn't necessarily there you know a kid watching test cricket now wouldn't fall in love with it the same way because you don't really have it's not conditioned to have those same characters surviving so that was just interesting as well that's a weird quirk isn't it of when we go oh god we just we just need we need we need them to not give in and and he was one of those players whereas now we're like oh well i feel like we'll probably we'll probably get some runs from somewhere but that didn't exist although no although the last test they didn't get any ones but but you know what i mean largely in the 90s it was very much i just i don't know who's going to get any runs today but he was i suppose quite ahead of his time in that way that he would he would fit nicely into into this into this style of cricket that is being played at test level because he was a run machine.

28:43So England will be wearing black armbands in the second test at Brisbane. And there'll be some, I'm sure you'll see some really lovely tributes from some of the current players and how important Robin Smith was to them as they were coming up through the ranks as well. I'm going to hold this book up so you can see how good is this cover. I know it's a podcast for people listening. Yeah, that's the one, isn't it? It's such an iconic book cover. He's serving a bouncer. So that's a really lovely tribute for you and Jim. And I will, I'll add that to my Christmas reading list because I actually haven't read that.

29:12I'm sure I'll be able to see the sort of the line from that book to what you and Jim did with Finding the Edge. It's a great thing to read for anyone who loves sport. It's a really like essential, that and the Agassi book and a few others are really the important books to read really. Thank you, Jim. Thank you, Fee, for your thoughts. And again, we send all our love to Robin Smith's friends and family and absolutely dedicate this episode to him. That's the very least we can do and encourage everyone to read his book, The Judge. And just go and take 10 minutes out of your day and watch some of his best bits on YouTube or just find in innings of his, the highlights of one of his innings or something.

29:47One of those ones in West Indies where the ball is almost literally going up his nose. Yeah, you know what? Your algorithm will thank you for that, for searching Robert Smith a few times and watching his innings. If the worst happens in Brisbane, then just switch over to watch something brilliant from him from the 90s. And then you can see proper batting. Do you think I might have to get something lined up? Because I think when you guys are coming to watch the test at my house, it's day three. So I might have to just line up some matches to get Robin Smith innings. Yeah. That we can watch. Yeah.

30:25In a way, I'd prefer that. Well, let's get that. Let's do that anyway. Yeah. Let's have Robin Smith on the big screen. Yeah, and we'll be like, I'm going to go into the 90s room for a bit now, guys. I would actually so much rather to have a 90s theme to a couple of nights. To clean out my eyes from what I've just seen. Let's get a great test match from the 90s loaded up. Let's maybe try and borrow one off Sky Sports for the weekend. Let's see if we can put a word in with someone. Oh my God, please. So, Go Well's finished with, let's start with some new tail enders. Matching shouts baby. human being babies we've got Rory and Eleonora Avalon Fred this is a tailender's trifecta as we previously announced the engagement and then the wedding of his parents Josie and Chris so that's that's the full that's the full package done so go well to all of you engagements human being engagements human being ones Alex and Eleanor go well that's it birthdays cheers human being birthdays human being ones Heather and Christine Natalie Ali is 10 and wants to be an England bowler and I'm sure that will happen with the right application and a little bit of luck and maybe a private school.

31:35Go well. Cricket clubs. Human being cricket clubs. Cambridge University cricket club, especially Johnny the Welfare Secretary and Bram Hall Cricket Club or Bramall probably actually. Go well. Yeah, it's Bramall. Cheers. Weddings. Human being weddings. Scott and Leah, they're also off to the Melbourne test for a laugh. Might not be a laugh. Go well. It could be washouts, hope not. Kia was playing handball the other day and was offered a fist bump from a teammate but got confused and ended up doing a Felix and grabbing the spud.