The Associates

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1:07Hello and welcome to Tailenders. Hello and thank you for having us on Tailenders, your weekly, loosely cricket-based podcast. This is GeForce Greg James. We have Sir Jimmy Anderson. That was Felix White matching Tendorko intermittently flashing on and off our screen. I don't know what's happening with the Wi-Fi in the Bristol area, but some not good things by the looks of it. He'll be back in a second. We've got loads of good stuff to get through on today's Tailenders. We've got a bit of Men's T20 World Cup stuff. We have an amazing discussion between Jimmy Anderson and Felix White to bring to the wider Tailenders community.

1:44This was a discussion that went deep into the night a couple of nights ago. And I basically woke up to the most wonderful fever dream, Dream 11 ever. So we'll get to that in a second. and we've got some correspondence of uncertainty. Obviously, you go Wales as well. And we start with a guest, a very special guest. So I wanted to start with the T20 Men's World Cup. We've been talking a lot over the last few weeks about the joys of having not your regular teams, your regular international teams in it. It's been blown wide open. So you've got your Italys, your Canadas, your Namibias, your Nepals, your Netherlandses, your Omanzes, your Scotlandes, your UAEs, your USAs.

2:23Nepal gave England a scare. We've talked about that. USA nearly beat India. Italy won their first match and gave England a run for their money as well. The Netherlands came close to defeating Pakistan. And it's brilliant that Zimbabwe have made the Super 8s as well. Yeah, come on Zimbabwe. We thought we would get an expert on the podcast. It's about bloody time, I can hear everyone saying. Welcome to Tailenders. Andrew Leonard, who is an ICC commentator and a big supporter of Associate Cricket. and you'll have heard Andrew a lot on the telly during this tournament. Andrew, welcome to TailEnders.

2:58Where are you? Greg Felix, Sir Jimmy, great to be with you guys. I'm still in Mumbai. I've had the most incredible two weeks and I cannot think of, it's probably more than two weeks now, three weeks nearly, I cannot think of a tournament that has felt more like a World Cup in European history. It's been so special here. Do you know what, Andrew? We wanted to get you on because we were all watching from our different homes and places the Nepal game, obviously, against England and you were talking incredibly eloquently and knowledgeably about Nepal. And firstly, you were the only person that seemed to be able to have a firm understanding of how to actually pronounce Nepal.

3:35So thank you for that. Did you notice that in a commentary that commentators tend to change, are waiting to see what you say in order to know how to pronounce it? Yeah, well, that was the first topic you brought up was the first topic I got brought into for my first World Cup that I've ever commentated on at the top level here. So I was asked for breakfast by, I hope the guys won't mind me saying, Nick Knight and Ian Ward and Nasser Hussein and Owen Morgan. And they were very interested in all facets of Nepal, but there was quite a lot of repeated discussion about how do we pronounce Nepal. And it is definitely Nepal.

4:10There is nobody called Paul within the name of the country. Okay. Thank you, clearing up. We could tell that there was a panic. There was a low-level panic. Not only was there a panic that Nepal might beat England, but there was also a panic that they were saying Nepal wrong. So that was the real drama of the day. Andrew, before we get on to this tournament and what you've enjoyed and what you've made of some of the associate nations, can we get your cricketing credentials, please? It's crucial that we just get a decent gauge as to who we're talking to here. I believe that there was county interest at one point in your cricketing life.

4:49Yeah, I think I trialled across seven or eight of the counties as a kid. All of them had common sense apart from Hampshire who took me on for a couple of years. I was a young academy pro at Hampshire as a leg spitter. The first year I was here, the first year Shane Warren was there. So you had truly the greatest sportsman to ever play our sport and you had a young, soon-to-be-bold leg spitter from Ireland who no one understood and everyone called Paddy. But no, great fond memories of that. Played a bit of Irish 19s with the likes of Kevin O 'Brien and Boyd Rankin and William Porterfield and all my contemporaries.

5:19Played a lot of Irish club cricket. Never quite tipped it. Got as far as an Irish A squad, but never got capped. And still love the sport, but been commentating full time now for eight years. Amazing. So you're also a leg spinner? Yeah, I was a leg spinner. Still have a callus somewhere on the finger there, I reckon. Oh, come on. But to be in the, even to be in the sort of, just a bit of reflected glare of Shane Warne was surely a complete dream. Complete dream. And Terry Jenner coached me quite a bit when I was younger, who was obviously his kind of spin guru. And Terry used to always say there was born leg spinners and people who tried to do it.

5:53And he always said that I was a born leg spinner. So I clearly failed miserably with not making it. But I've always adored the game from a young age. If it wasn't for the men from the West Indies, I wouldn't have got into it. Being an Irishman, I'd no background in it, but seeing a side in maroon, beat England, made a young Irish kid with glasses very happy. and got me up as a kid. Felix, would you say that you're a born loopy left arm spinner? Well, thank you so much for asking, Greg. And people do say that to me often, but I've got, Jimmy says it often, I've got natural born ability. But I do actually think there's something in that because I think it's the same way as when you pick up a guitar.

6:29Like you'll pick up a guitar and you'll hold it a certain way or left or right handed just naturally for the first time. And I think that is true that people do, the first time you ask someone to bowl, they might just bowl it naturally, very loopy, very flight without knowing what it is. And I think that's kind of what you're getting at, Andrew, is that sometimes kids will just bowl it out of the back of a hand. Very technically difficult things to do, but as if that was the thing you're supposed to do with it. Is that what happened to you? It just came out of the back of your hand without kind of forcing it?

6:59I was really small as a kid, so I just wanted to make my bigger brothers look silly in the front garden when we were playing with a tennis ball and a stick. We didn't even have a bat. and that was like I wasn't able to bowl fast enough to you know make them miss it but I was able to turn my wrist and make it turn both ways so yeah probably a fair bit of wasted talent there but I got so blessed to be involved with the sport in a full-time basis for so long now I've kind of worked in some capacity in it since 2008 I think so yeah kind of failed player failed administrator failed coach and then trying not to fail as a commentator if possible.

7:31Well, don't worry about the administrator one because all administrators fail inevitably and ultimately. True. Okay. So it just happened all year round. There's another failed administrator. So you're in a great spot because you're a great commentator. And I wanted to ask you a few questions about commentary because we obviously pour over all the coverage of everything all the time. So we get used to hearing commentators saying certain things. do you have a list of good things to say and bad things to say when your brain fails do you have a little list of sort of your greatest hits your catchphrases because otherwise you might fall back onto the same old stuff mightn't you it's a great question i personally don't i've seen some contemporaries who actually do carry lists i've seen a couple of guys with adjectives of whatever 50 200 different ways you can say smashed or hammered or got scythed away you know i think it's a real art form isn't it there's no sort of science to commentary as such if there was we'd have ai commentators and it just wouldn't work so there's an art to it and i think like anything in life the more you do it the better you get it and i've hopefully been so blessed that i've had so much exposure for the last eight years doing it full time you know the icc pathway events and the fact that every single ball of the men's and women's t20 world cup and audi world cup qualification pathways is broadcast live has given you know the likes of someone like myself who wasn't necessarily a top level player who can just walk straight into the box a great training ground a great breeding ground and um yeah the fact that you know at those levels sometimes you're doing all 100 overs of an ODI it's just one other person originally it was by myself actually I've done a few few days 100 overs oh really which is chaos and very exhausting and you end up kind of having a good what just you so you're having a conversation with yourself What do you think of that Andrew?

9:23Thanks. Thanks Lenny. Great Lenny. Very good. Guys I'm so sorry my rug's just flown off the balcony I'm going to have to go and get that. As I was saying there was a subplot in the England Nepal game of can the commentators say Nepal properly. There's a subplot in today's tale enders which is Felix at the start of the call was telling us that he's hanging a rug out to dry on the balcony but it is maybe too windy for the rug to dry and it might get blown away. what's the status on the rug? Felix, what's going on over there? Thank you for asking, Greg. And thank you for doing that in a style of commentary of a cricket match.

9:55I'm right on the boundary now with said rug and it's just flown over the top of the balcony and come back in. I'm very T20 style, actually. It's caught. The wind's caught it without a step-alone line and then brought it back in. This is the actual... Did it save a six or did it catch it out? It's the rug. This is very well cut for him. This is the rug I've got from Marrakesh from my last trip. is now on the balcony in Peckham to air it out but I've just saved it from six, that is just too nice. Why do you have to wash it? I don't think you have to wash it Jim, to be honest with you Why is it drying though?

10:29Why is it wet? Jimmy Anderson, if I wanted advice about how to dry out a rug I wouldn't be coming to you my friend, okay? But I Who would you go to? Good question, Andrew Leonard I wanted to ask a question to Jimmy is it always like this, this is great what me not speaking for the first 10 minutes of the show yeah pretty much and then chiming in about a rug yeah is it a misuse of the greatest cricket greg and felix do all the the cricket nitty-gritty and i just chip in with a bit of rug commentary every now and then yeah i'll throw it to jimmy and i'll go what do you think about bowling leg spin did you ever do that in fact that was a question i was going to ask and then i played the answer through my head and he went no and so i didn't answer i didn't ask it but yeah i might ask it now.

11:16That would have led into me saying, so that's why I bowl left arm spin. Okay. Because I couldn't do that. Okay, positions everyone, positions everyone, positions everyone. Andrew, that's really interesting what you're saying about being a leg spinner, being born a leg spinner. Jimmy, was there ever a moment in your career where you thought, oh, I might bowl spin? Yeah. No. Side question, what the f*** about rug? No, when I was a kid, same theory as Andrew, I wanted to, you want to beat the bats. It's the same as bowling swing. you want to try and move it in the air and make the battle look silly same thing with with spin bowling and i i could bowl a little bit of off spin but all my mates were right-anders so they'd just whack it through the leg side i wanted to turn it away from the bat couldn't bowl leg spin so i thought i'll try some loopy left arm stuff and that actually felt more natural that's how hard leg spin is jimmy let me ask you this what level is your left arm spin so where do you think you could play?

12:12Could you play first club cricket better than first club cricket left arm spin? I'd say it's about currently without having worked on it recently I'd say third 11 club level. Third 11? No, come on. When are you at your best? My batting might just sneak me into the first team.

12:34I think if I worked at it a little bit I could bowl. County cricket? Absolutely not. First team club club cricket maybe. So you wouldn't bring yourself on if you needed some spin options and all your spinners weren't available during a county championship game just for a couple of hours before lunch? No. Left arm spin? No. I don't think I would. Not not. No. Okay can I ask you now Jimmy how would you wash your rugs? No I'm not asking how that wasn't my question I said why is your rug wet that you need to air it? Okay. How can we watch it? You're eating during the podcast now. Got Andrew Leonard on.

13:22Oh, I can't listen now without eating. No. Keep it all in. Keep it all in, Sharky. What happened was I was in Marrakesh. I bought a rug. They said they'll send it to me. I was quite dubious about them sending me a rug because once you paid for the rug, they would have every right just not to send you that rug. wouldn't they but they have sent it to me when it's come it's compact very tight curled up so when i put it across my floor it's got lots of it doesn't stretch tight yeah so i've tried by weighing down in my flat i've tried to weigh down each corner to tighten that rug out but it's still quite loopy i get it but i would say that this would just flatten out over time so you just got you'll live with it yeah leave it leave it in situ and it will just flatten out over time and it will just all be all right eventually it'll be right eventually andrew's nodding i think you'd agree with that when you just leave it out i have significant rug experience given my namesake dug the rug so yes you would say so all right andrew when was the last time you commentated on a jimmy anderson over good question oh i don't think i've ever had the good fortune to do so jimmy my my wheelhouse is the irish game i do most of ireland's internationals most of afghanistan's internationals huge spectrum of the associate game so i think i've commentated about 40 countries I may have never done it Sir Jimmy I'm afraid Really?

14:38But not even when Ireland were playing England in a test or anything like that you weren't doing the I've never played Ireland in a test You've never played was that when you were injured? He was too big time for us I was injured both times I think that's sad because I think there was a game where you were injured or rested and Tim Murtagh was just wobbling around at Lord's and got loads of workets That was like a week or two weeks before the 2019 Ashes if I remember Oh Jack Leach got 90 odd Yeah Batting three. As a night watchman, yeah. Yeah, night watchman. Iconic innings. Oh, that's sad. So you've never commentated on a Jimmy Anderson over, but you would have enjoyed watching him play cricket over the years.

15:16Absolutely adored. And joking aside, I'm not just saying this because you're on, I vividly remember back in 03 when you burst onto the scene and I was quite involved still. I was at the Cardiff University Cricketing Centre of Excellence and everyone was going, who's this young kid playing for England from nowhere? And you had an unorthodox technique that some people were starting to criticise, but you just kept nailing it. Particularly, I think the old three World Cup were particularly amazing and everyone in our Cardiff University Crickling Centre of Excellence was raving about how this guy's going to be England's best bowler ever and you certainly went on to prove that.

15:47So good. 2003. That is crazy. 2003. I was with Mark Patini who went on to play for Essex. Keith Bell was Arian Bell's brother. I was 12th man for three Cardiff Centre of Excellence first class games and I'm pretty sure the coach only picked me as 12th man so he could have someone to drink with in the evenings. They were never picking a leg spinner in April against the counties it just wasn't happening but I was 12th man always. That's so sweet it sort of blows my mind that that you would have been texting each other on 3310s about how great Jimmy Anderson was and here we are with one of the greatest of all time it's very very cool.

16:29Andrew let's talk about this World Cup and the associate nation so you've been keeping an eye on all of this and obviously you're a fantastic commentator but you're on this because there are loads of games you're on this because your expertise is especially needed with lots of commentators not knowing how to say Nepal for example. So tell us what you've enjoyed about this and clearly you think this is a great thing for world cricket, we couldn't agree more but what's really caught your eye? I'm still trying to take it all in, to be honest, because I used to work for the ICC from 2014 to 2017. And pretty sure every event we ever did, no matter how good it was, always seemed to get loads of criticism from the press and from the fans.

17:10The structure or went on too long or the small teams weren't good enough or there was always something. And so much of the talk in the lead up to this event was obviously quite negative and politically charged. and then the cricket start and everyone has been completely anonymous in an adoration for what we've seen over the course of the last two weeks. I think the triple header group stages deserve massive praise. It didn't quite happen two years ago when this format came in for the first time and I also think the fact that the group stage or preliminary stage as it used to be back from 2022 prior, the fact that that's gone and it's a full open draw has meant that we've got these wonderful stories and fantastic narratives right out in the open and when we occasionally do get a hammering and you know for example Oman have been massively under par let's hope they change that tonight against Australia in the 40th and last group game people don't dwell on it because there's another game that's already started or is about to start or there's something else happening and you think of some of the stories that we've had you know two brothers in floods of tears in the middle of the Wancadi celebrating Italy's first ever World Cup win we've had a 19 year old the first teenager from any team in the world to make a World Cup century.

18:19And Yuvraj Samra, who was born in Brampton in Ontario, and fully Canadian, born and bred, named after Yuvraj Singh, who his dad idolised, and he bats left-handed and biffed the most incredible hundred. Great. We've seen Nepal push England to the brink. We've seen Scotland and Italy push England to the brink. We've seen Netherlands push Pakistan and India all the way. USA, if they could have taken that catch this year at Kumar Yadav, it would have been 82 for seven and it would have been maybe the greatest upset in the history of the sport they sadly haven't got over the line so it's this kind of this wonderful melancholic feeling greg to be honest of like huge pride at these guys showing how good they are against all odds against all tilting of the scales that the bigger sides have in their favor but i'm also good at that they didn't get those wins that live forever because a glorious defeat only lasts so long but I then also analyzed the stats last night I'm that much of a nerd and they've actually scored at a better rate than they've ever scored the associate sides at a world cup they've taken more wickets than they've ever taken two of the top three impact players in the tournament have been Ben Menenti and Basteleta you know from Italy in the Netherlands Scotland came in with a week and a half's prep coming out of minus 20 in Edinburgh to be unbelievably competitive there's been so many good narratives that the two young American kids Saitaja Mukhamala and Sanjay Krishnam Murphy born and bred in California, New Jersey, have blossomed on the world stage.

19:42Chadli Van Schalkveke, a guy obviously originally from South Africa, but very much a journeyman American, is the leading wicket taker in the competition. It depends on the thing I really haven't even mentioned yet. For me, I think he should be in the team of the tournament, whatever happens in the Super Eights and onward, because he's that good. So it's just so exciting. And I think we're on the precipice of maybe making this game truly global. 87 sides tried qualifying for these eight spots. And that was meritocratic. You know, anyone who is an associate member of the ICC can enter that pathway and try to get there.

20:14Eight got the spots and then, you know, the 12 qualified automatically. But it's just been so heartening. Everything I've seen is positive about it. And I really hope we can capitalise upon this now and make it a truly global game because it's the best sport in the world. It's that simple. Correct. I know you said, Andrew, that there's been a lot of close defeats and obviously you'd probably hope for more wins for the associate nations, but for England fans and fans of the eight or nine or ten main nations... Twelve. Twelve, sorry, that don't see... Thank you for your expertise. That's a great tune.

20:53...that maybe don't watch a lot of associate cricket. It feels like that gap from World Cups where there's been two, three or four associate nations involved, when you see a much larger number of them, it feels like that gap's quite close now. Have you seen that over the last few years, the amount of cricket you've watched? Have you seen that gap closing? I think the standards of associate cricket are better than they've ever been. But at the same time, the general standard of the full members and the quality of cricket we're seeing is so strong now that it's almost like the associates are the best they've ever been, but the full members continue to just inch away.

21:26and that's we've seen that in a lot of games even just individual innings where they'll play 80 percent of a good innings they might have 16 good overs and the final four they'll just get taken away from them one drop catch will lead to a load of the power hitting that you know or someone else can do that they just don't quite have that ability of yet but the gap is definitely narrowing I think the statistics back that up I think the reality is that because the ICC pathway events have so much competitiveness to them like Zimbabwe didn't qualify for the last World Cup and rightly so they missed out they I was there in Vintuk they lost to Uganda it was an 11am start it felt like a big toss Uganda outfield had now bowled and restricted them to 130 and chased it comfortably two years ago as a consequence Uganda qualified for their first World Cup they won five from six Zimbabwe won four from six they didn't qualify Zimbabwe as a consequence had to go back to a sub-regional qualifier to play against the likes of the Gambia and Seychelles including where I think they posted over 300 in one of the games.

22:22You could argue maybe a Test Nation shouldn't go back to the sub-regional level. It's another day's argument. But they've now got through the qualifier, the main Africa qualifier, got to the World Cup, beaten Australia, beaten Sri Lanka. I think they've got a real chance of a semi-final. Love that. There's definitely a narrowing of the margins and the fact that the associate members obviously don't have to have any thoughts about Red Bull cricket. They only play, it's 99 of them were in this pathway to try and get into this one. And there's 108 member nations altogether and only 36 of them focus on 50 over cricket.

22:56So outside of those kind of 36, everyone else is just focusing on one format, which can be an aid and a benefit in a funny way. But also the other thing you've got to remember is that for the first time seven years ago, the ICC gave T20I status to everyone. Now it's upset a few statistical nerds and badgers because they're like, well, hold on, why is a game between Nepal and Mongolia worth the same as England versus Australia. And Dependra Singh already hit a nine-ball 50 in that game. It's a record that can never be broken. It's not possible mathematically. But does that really matter? Does that matter that he has that record and Jovraj Singh is in second with a 12-ball 50?

23:34I don't think so. What it gives those nations, though, is a world ranking. It gives them a chance to go to the Olympic councils for funding, which generally fund most of the sports bodies in most of the countries. And it also just gives them a feeling of belonging, that they're on the same pitches in the same parks as the best in the game. Andrew, is there a sense of collective identity with all the associate nations? Do you have a feeling that between them, a win for any of those teams is a win for everyone? Obviously, it's very competitive between themselves, but do they go in with a sense of almost community against the bigger teams?

24:07I think that's genuinely such a great question. And it is. They're a literal brethren. They're a fraternity amongst the women. and even the men's and women's side share so much because every single one of them has sacrificed massively to chase their dreams in reality. Some of the associates are luckier than others. Nepal have full-time contracts. Namibia have full-time contracts. Oman and UAE have good set-up. Scotland have a small professional staff. The Dutch do as well. But none of them are multimillionaires in reality. And they're all doing this to chase dreams. And, you know, Christian Kalagamage has probably made a lot of headlines being a pizza dough maker in an Italian kitchen had to quit his job to come and play this tournament.

24:48And he won a match award, impressed everyone who he saw him bowl his leg breaks. And, you know, he's praying and hoping that he might get a franchise opportunity in one of the smaller leagues now and be able to be a full-time cricketer. They don't have a turf pitch in Italy. Like it's, this is the best stories in our sport are outside of the 12 Test Nations. I assure you that from seeing them with my own eyes. It's not. Do you ever see a time where there will be series between one of the test nations and an associate nation? So like, you know, Italy against New Zealand play three match T20 series or something outside of a World Cup without them becoming a full nation.

25:24Do you ever see that happening? Well, it already happens to a certain extent. So, you know, the UAE have, with their great facilities, hosted New Zealand. They've hosted and beaten Bangladesh in a series, hosted a triangular with Pakistan and Bangladesh before the Asia Cup. Nepal managed to persuade the West Indies to come and play them in three matches in September that was in Sharjah on the way to the India tour that they had, they beat them 2-1 they won their first ever games against a full member nation Oh yeah, I forgot about that It does happen, but it happens hugely frequently, Australia played Scotland in three T20Is at the end of 2024 that was because Ireland, my nation, couldn't afford to host them for reasons we won't get into on this podcast so I really would appeal to the full member nations to see the benefit of assisting these countries and with playing them in between the mandated ICC events how do they grow or how do they get more exposure or how do they get a commercial opportunity to get these kind of series and I understand in England in particular the calendar is a mess and there's so much cricket and it's all over the place and you're trying to fit everything in but I'm not talking about month-long series I'm talking about can you come and play three T20Is across the course of five days and it might yeah it needs to be a full side that's a proper T20i but you might not pick your five or six big guys you might be resting and you know South Africa did that to Namibia in October to open their new ground it was a one-off game rather than a series but Quinton de Kock and Donovan Ferreira were there and Namibia won off the last ball in front of a sold out five and a half thousand person crowd so you know that's okay it affects South Africa's ranking but like really do you care about your rankings that much like Is it not a holistic, bigger picture good?

27:04And if they could just do that each once a year and get the 12 next best associate sides one more series a year, we're going to see those gaps narrowing that you were just talking about, Jimmy, come even closer. It's exciting. I would love to see those gaps narrowed. And I guess the point is money and you're saying supported by the bigger nations and all the rest of it. Because we're thinking about how sport can change really quickly. You've just got to look at women's football, women's cricket, women's rugby the last few years, everyone decided, all the big companies, all the big sponsors went, yep, we're going to plough all the money into this and this is going to happen.

27:38And now look what happens sort of five, six, seven years later. That's, it can, things can change quickly, can't they? Just a couple of cool things that you guys might not have seen from being here in India. The Indian media have been all over the associates. They love the stories. The fans, the fans are tuning in in some cases, bigger numbers for associate versus associate matches than full member versus full member matches. Not the India games, of course, the India games are still massively multiplied in terms of the number of eyeballs. Indian companies are going, I like this story. And there we go.

28:08You know, the Namibia sponsorship, unbelievable story. Some terrible or great acting, depending on how you're looking at it. Yeah. Well, quite the same, you know. Quite a smart move to call your kid after you've Raj. Yeah. That's how you do it. By the way, I love this trend of parents who are cricket mad, like Ratchin Ravindra as well calling Ratchin Ravindra after Raul Dravid and Sachin and then you've Ratch. It's it anyway. It sounds great when you go to play for your country, maybe not for the 4th 11 then the club. But yeah. Bowler's name, Ratchin Ravindra. What? This is so cool. It just made me think.