We’ll have a look, of course we’ll have a look.…it’s Steve Finn

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1:04Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to Tailenders. Hello and thank you for having us on Tailenders, your weekly, sometimes more than weekly, loosely cricket-based podcast. Oh, well, cheers. Oh, well, cheers. This is GeForce, Greg James. That was Felix White. We have Matchin Tendulka. We have Sharky, the Sharknado shaman on the production buttons. And we have officially, for the first time ever on this podcast, Sir Jimmy James Anderson. Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello, Your Highness, Your Knighthood-ness. It's lovely to be in his presence, isn't it, gentlemen? Lovely to be here.

1:53god what an absolute pleasure it is yeah honor my liege lovely to be here it is ridiculous actually that this podcast is now one of the hosts is a knight of the realm it's ridiculous yeah yeah i'm john this morning i've um i'm on tour with jim at the moment and this very morning he probably showed you guys because i know that you went to the party on wednesday but um i was holding the very what is it called medallion jim what do you call it i don't know okay so I was holding whatever it is that they gave him in my hands and it is cool I've got to say it is cool yeah it's like an artifact from like do you know what I mean it does feel like it emanates it's very cool on today's podcast obviously we want to get the full debrief from the castle we're also going to speak to another England cricket legend fast bowling legend Steve Finn's going to join us talk about his brand new book and his uh his thoughts on the ashes and all the rest of it he's currently commentating on one of the semi-finals from the women's world cup so we'll chat to him in a little break in a second so jimmy you're now a knight of the realm um go go realm does that work go go realm cheers doesn't quite work no um it wasn't it wasn't after all that chat last week me giving it the big one thinking that i'd done my research and googled successfully that it's always the king that gives out the knighthoods it wasn't the king talk us through your day at the castle well we had a lovely day at the castle it was princess anne he was on duty princess anderson yeah very good yeah yeah it was just a nice day not really much to report but jim you know i did i was struck but i was just happy that um you seem to have had a really good day there because it just felt like not to get too mushy but everyone wanted you to felt like if anyone deserves that you did and to really enjoy it and it felt like it was kind of like you did get a sense of on the day it being a big deal and a cool thing for you right you kind of had the moment of being like oh wow this is actually or not no really not really okay i mean it was obviously it was a special day because you obviously you're at the windsor castle everything going on i guess you know it's just it was incredible and but i think i felt like it was more for the family and for them to enjoy it yeah Obviously, it's a proud moment, but I don't know.

4:15No, I mean, yeah, that makes sense. I don't want to make it sound underwhelming, but I don't know. Well, what is what Jimmy was saying? He's on the biz. He's just on an actual cheers with a beer. Jimmy was interested in it. And look, I don't know if you want this in the podcast, but you said to me when we saw you in the pub, you'd been quite nervous in the lead up to it, which is why you weren't overthinking it. and we were all overthinking it for you. But when you got there and you were doing the sort of down on one knee thing, what was going through your head? Were you, because that is a weird, that's quite an iconic moment, isn't it?

4:50Everyone sees those photos or the videos of that moment where the sword goes on one shoulder and the other. Did it feel quite surreal? Because it's quite a surreal thing. I don't know any sirs. I've never seen, I don't really know. I've not really chatted to anyone who's gone through that thing before. It looks quite, it's quite intense, isn't it? Because it's like, think of all the mad characters that have gone through that process over the year. Yeah, I think the nerves were just because I didn't know what the hell was happening. Yeah. You know, it felt like the lead up to an episode of Tailenders.

5:20You've no idea what's going to be spoken about or what's going to happen. You just sort of wing it. Yeah. But yeah, I think because I found out like half an hour before who was doing it, Princess Anne would be there. also in that half an hour before it's like you have a quick run through how to walk into the room how to address the royal highness how to kneel on the thing quick net like it was literally like 30 seconds and then that's it you've got to remember that and then yeah do it in and you were first up weren't you you were like the first person that got the procedure yeah yeah i was first up it's just like my first time at Windsor Castle as well and it's absolutely beautiful like stunning inside so I think that you know it was really special to be able to see that and have a walk around for my family to be there in the same room as it happened was incredible then you have pictures afterwards and then straight to the pool did you get any any inkling that Anne might have been a tail ender I don't think she is no she might be now but it was only cricket it was only cricket chat any cricket chat from her oh a little bit yeah what's the vibe yeah a little bit her husband's a big fan oh really and yeah she's just asking me about my career basically just some pleasant questions i don't know if it was sharky that mocked this up or someone but he sent it on the internet's website group where um and there's a photo of and i see jimmy and she's saying go well and he's saying cheers did that happen was that is that accurate reporting i i I can't remember that happening.

6:59Okay. Cheers. What would you say? You'd say Sirwell. Yeah, Nightwell. Nightwell, cheers. I thought not, yeah. Yeah. Nightwell, cheers. But she didn't sort of make a comment on like, oh, I thought Rob Key was like, was a bit of a prick doing what he did or nothing like that. No, nothing like that. Right, okay. Just asking me about my career. Was it always cricket? Oh, interesting. And I went with the short answer of yes, even though I could have gone long-winded and said, no, actually, Boris Becker was my first hero. I was four year out. That's a horrible chat. That's a horrible chat. You didn't have time for that.

7:32But you said this the other night in the pub that she's the sporty one, isn't she? She's Sporty Spice of the royal family. She's an Olympian, right? She's an Olympian, yeah. Incredible. We talked about horses and stuff. Oh, yeah, of course. Was she horses? Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, she was horses. She was almost kidnapped once, wasn't she? Oh! Well, don't bring that up. No, I think it's got a cool story. She almost got kidnapped and she kind of pushed him off and then the bodyguard was out. I think there's going to be a drama about it. No way. She's quite ballsy. Right, okay, yeah. I think it's a good energy match for Jimmy, actually, Princess Anne.

8:07Yeah. That's quite good. Probably quite good down at the pub. What was really sweet is that, as you said, your family were having an amazing time. Lola was absolutely buzzing about it. Was she? To take your two girls to the castle and Daniela as well, they looked like they just had the best time because it is it's a ridiculous thing like not many people go get to do that do they they seem buzzing about it yeah they were like when we're walking through you can see their eyes just looking at all the yeah history on the walls the the artwork the you know there's there's rooms with guns on the walls from hundreds of years ago swords and whatever else it's just a really cool thing to to go and see and and they were just yeah see that they were made up to be there.

8:56Just like trying to try and do TikToks in the turret. Yeah. Jim was on, you were the guy after Jimmy was, what was he getting nighted for, Jim, the next guy? Services to global nuclear safety.

9:15Can he bowl an out swinger? Can he do it in Australia? No, he can't. But how many times you got Sachin Tendulkar out? Exactly. How many times you disarmed that nuclear warhead? Well, one of the funny bits of the party, which Matchin ran over to me very excited about. Do you want to take up the story, Matchin, of who you pointed out to me? And then you came over and went, oh, mate, this is amazing. Well, yeah. So all Jimmy's friends and family were there. Brodie was there, as expected. Go, well, cheers. Yep. And then, who should walk in? A footballer who's never been mentioned before. I didn't even know that Jimmy knew him.

9:53If you could have, if I could have listed a thousand footballers that would have walked in before this man, I would have gone Milner, if I had to guess. In walks, Liverpool and Real Madrid legend, Steve McManaman. And immediately, all eyes went to Everton superfan, Mark Sharkey. Of course, yeah. And I just, my face just lit up and I went, ah, ah. And then what did you say, Sharkey? come on a favour oh is that what you said I'm pretty sure despite his you know obvious allegiance to them lot I'm pretty sure he grew up a blue and I think in his heart I think in his heart he's still a blue nose I think okay but I wasn't 100 % sure so clearly I didn't go anywhere near him did you not I can't be trusted then were little whispers from everyone of like we'll have a look of course we'll have a look it's just so it's unbearably the temptation to go and do that to his face is unbelievable.

10:55What, to go and say, did you swore Everton? No, you know, he's gone sort of madly viral for, we'll have a look. We'll have a look. Oh, I don't know that. Sorry, what's that? Every time a volleyball went past me, I wanted to say that. And Greg looked at me and was like, don't say it. She wants something to do for my potatoes. We'll have a look. Of course we'll have a look. There's a bit of his commentary when they were doing VAR and stuff. Right, okay, okay. Anyway, Jimmy, have a look. Oh, my word. We'll have a look. Of course we'll have a look. Matching when sausage rolls are going past him. Steve and Matt.

11:41Are you guys writing Steve and Matt, haven't you, Jimmy? You and Macca? No, I just thought, I need someone there to wine shark you.

11:53Get a Liverpool legend to wind up Sharky. It was so funny because Sharky was so immediately sort of joyless and like robust with it. He was like, pretty sure he grew up a blue. Pretty sure he grew up a blue. Just trying to confuse himself. So good. Sharky. Are I faded up? Yes, you're faded up. from the last time. I do have a recollection of being in the club shop, the Evan club shop, and him coming in. I'm sure he's a blooper. Shut up. What, why are you ever saying stuff? Post-playing, post-playing. Buying hats and stuff. Oh, maybe I'm, well, I'll frame myself down. We should get him on and try and confirm this.

12:42Anyway, Steve Finn's in the lobby. I'm going. Hang on. Oh, wait, wait, wait, hang on. I've had a look. Of course I've had a look. he grew up as an Everton supporter with his boyhood heroes in football being Bob Latchford and Duncan McKenzie. Chuck, are you your boyhood heroes too? A bit early for me, if I'm being honest. Bob Latchford, yeah. A bit early? A bit early. Is he younger than you? No, he's older than me. He must be older than me. I think he's only 53. Yeah, so he's older than me then. Yeah, not much. Not much, innit? Bloody hell. Looks 20 years younger.

13:22i was wondering he was gonna say it

13:28he doesn't sharky you look perfect let me look give me your passport sharky we'll have a look of course we'll have a look of course we'll have a look all right okay let's let's get let's get steven finn on hello guys finney hello hello boys how we doing hello how's it going well it's a pleasure to be in the presence of sir jim here hey hey can i quickly ask finney a question before we start steve can you tell us just off the top of your head how old do you think steve at manamum is i'm gonna say 54 oh nice nice 53 53 is he 53 okay yeah yeah so he we were just for context finney we were just saying that at jimmy's little drinks when he became a knight of the realm steve mcmahon was there and we were all surprised that jimmy knows steve mcmahon that well it's lovely it was lovely to see him but what was he receiving many many many many beers

14:42anyway tell us uh tell us tell us where you are tell us how you how you how your autumn and winter's shaping up what's going on well i'm currently in the bbc offices at broadcasting house um commentating on the semi-final in the cricket world cup between australia and India so that's what I'm doing right now so that's that's occupied a lot of my October doing this I've been promoting my new book which um which is exciting actually and um I've been enjoying the process of of doing that and then I'm off to the ashes on the 17th of November as well so yeah relatively busy yeah relatively busy busy times well I knew about the ashes I knew about the book obviously the ashes files which we'll get into in a second but I was I was actually hoping for some some sort of color of of like of India I was hoping for some like sights and sounds but then I realised no you're in a little box in broadcasting house and that's it's not as glamorous as I hoped yeah well it shows that we're doing a good job as commentators to bring the flavour of the tournament to you even though we're doing it from tv screens nice yeah yeah I like that I like that yeah so just just regular references to local delicacies and things going oh those pakoras I had earlier were delicious yeah partly partly that and you sit and you talk about things that you're seeing outside the ground in the distance.

15:57You can see the lights from the cars on the road. Oh, lovely. It's just whatever the TV director decides to pan to. I didn't talk about that. That's great. Steve, I'm on tour with Jimmy at the moment and we're using a clip from The Edge as part of the show where you go to Bavaria in the 2010-11 things and one of the biggest laughs that the show gets, and there are a lot of laughs that night, is when you are on your, you're trying to do pushups and you're saying to the, whoever it is, special forces guy, I want to f***ing kill you. Yeah, I'd say that's an accurate representation of how I felt at the time.

16:38Yeah, it was, I just remember getting off the plane and we got given these two bricks and they're like, these two bricks are your best mates for the next three days. We thought we were going to Oktoberfest and ended up doing f***ing pushups for three days, which, yeah, Yeah, it wasn't what I thought I'd signed up for when I thought I was going to be playing for cricket for England. And they took the Uyaharabal view. The other thing that we talk about in that bit of the show is when we had a boxing, a sparring thing. It just made me think now, thinking of Finney as someone who's 6 '7", 6 '8". Yeah.

17:15Might not be built like Chris Tremont, but size-wise, they're probably more similar to, me and Chris yeah yeah I got paired up who did you end up boxing up I got paired up with Monty Panesar which was an absolute oh for god in a fight with Monty Panesar it was yeah I wouldn't call it a fight he just curled himself up in a ball and let me pummel his midriff for about 30 seconds and that was it

17:47he didn't throw he didn't throw he didn't throw one punch not one yes left arm spinners but jimmy's image what do you remember of jimmy's fight with chris tremblet because famously jimmy breaks a rib in that fight but when he explains it to me i've got a picture of like chris tremblet holding jimmy's head at arm's length and jimmy just tried to swing him but not being able to reach him like a cartoon it was like it was like a grown man fighting an 11 year old boy I would say it's probably the closest to yeah I likened it to Dolph Lundgren versus Barry Chuckle that was harsh on Barry Chuckle it was a massive mismatch anyway wasn't it but the thing is though you're watching both of those fights exactly you're watching that fight your sky box office are getting my money for that one yeah Finney this time of year is very exciting for cricket fans, very exciting for cricketers if you're playing in the Ashes.

18:50Do you still get that feeling, that little buzz in your belly when you feel like it's Ashes season? I guess you've been looking back at all the Ashes stuff with your diaries and stuff, but do you still feel that excitement even though you're watching? Yeah, you really do. And I'm lucky that I've been involved with them as a player and as a broadcaster. And actually there's the most exciting bit is walking out there on the first morning. as a player or a broadcaster and just like sensing the anticipation in the ground. So I can't wait to feel that on the first morning in Perth, but also just the build up to the series, the fact that everyone's gobbing off against each other.

19:31It's already kicked off and we're still three weeks away from that first ball being bowled. So yeah, it really is the place where you test yourself the most as a player as well. And the series probably that you remember most fondly are the ones where you win Ash's series. So that's certainly how I felt in my career. I like that you've kept diaries. I didn't know that about you. That's really nice that you've kept diaries. How extensive were they? Was it just Ash's diaries or was it, or have you sort of cobbled it together with memories and old footage? Or did you get back to your hotel every night and go, I bowled a little short today, but tomorrow I'll try a little harder.

20:04And I had two flat whites and then Jimmy came and, you know, tucked me in and said, good night. What was the extent of them? Well, yeah, if you had early access to my diary. Yes, spoiler alert. Felix wrote Jimmy's book. I wrote Finn's. But I wrote it like a children's book. Is that not what you wanted? Sorry. This is a diary of Adrian Mole.

20:31Yeah, like when you read them back, you're like, because I like writing, but I read them back and I'm like, oh, they're a bit basic when I was first doing them. But then as you develop and things happen within a series or within your life, then they become a bit more detailed. And then when we moved towards 2013-14, it turned into me basically berating myself in the written word every single night that I went back to my hotel room. So yeah, they're certainly interesting. And when you look back on them now, it kind of transports you back to that moment when you were writing it, which made connecting with those feelings throughout the book a lot easier.

21:05But yeah, they more supported what I remember happening as opposed to anything else. And there are certainly extracts throughout the book that support the feeling of what was going on. That sounds great man I can't wait to read. When you read them back Steve like did you have a feeling like especially when you're having a more difficult time did you have a sense of like what you would like to say to yourself back then like did it with perspective like when you're doing loops in your head? Yeah I certainly wouldn't have approached the situation in the same manner if I was as I am now 36 and out there and had understood everything that was going on but I think at the time when you're in that environment you're kind kind of you've got your guard up the entire time because you want everyone in the dressing room to think that everything's okay because you don't want to be a drain on the team you don't want people to look around the dressing room and think why on earth is he here like what's he doing so yeah you try and have these guards up the whole time but it's only when you go back to your hotel room that you let your guard down and you can write honestly about what you're feeling and um and yeah like i look back on it now and think would i have approached the situation a lot differently I think I certainly would have done in what sense I think actually that like saying that it's that you're not okay or it's not okay is is acceptable and I think that 12 years on from that now I think it's far more acceptable for you to to say like I'm banging my head against a brick wall here I don't really know what to do whereas yeah I prided myself on figuring things out by myself at that time in my life and my career and then you just end up tunneling even deeper into your intrusive thoughts so yeah I think I'd have took a step back and probably sought help sooner would be the two things i'd tell myself so interesting it's incredibly cruel that that whole lesson that life teaches you sometimes and i've i've um i've chatted to there's a guy who was in a band that did like massive things in sort of the early noughties that has since said oh i'm so much better at the guitar now or like we're so much better as a band now and i'm so much better at the brain now that if we could go back and be those 25 year olds now we would we take over the world so so when greg i said those things prior

23:17but the same is but the same is true for sport when people talk about sport at the top that top level being so demanding that obviously not just talking about the the physical side of it but that that mental side of it as well finney that is that's the thing isn't it that's the thing it separates the people that did really well with the people that go on to be icons of a generation. It's incredibly difficult to make it all work at the same time, I guess is the point I'm trying to make. Everything just has to align perfectly, doesn't it? Yeah, it has to align perfectly, but you also have to be able to persevere through the tough times and come out the other side of it.

23:56Clearly cricket and bowling is something where being genetically blessed with a good action and and a body that's robust is something that can help you a lot as well. But yeah, certainly the mental side of the game and just the amount of time that you have inside your own head as a cricketer, I think, is something that is really challenging. And clearly, I'm sure Jimmy found that now he is a very different person to he was in his early 20s and the challenges that he faced there. He just managed to come through them and be the most amazing bowler that we've ever had, which is testament to him and his character.

24:29I wasn't quite good enough to do that and that's okay. Don't you think also it's like 2012-13 the media and the culture around mental health was very different so to go back and say I know I would have done it differently then it was just a different environment to be facing those challenges and if you were bowling now it would be dealt with in a completely different way by the media and by the team. Yeah I think it probably would definitely be dealt with differently now I look back on when Jonathan Trott left the tour and he was public enemy number one on the back pages of newspapers for admitting that he wasn't okay.

25:06So that puts your guard up immediately. And at the time, I just saw my problems as cricket problems and that they were eking into the rest of my life was just something that was happening as a result of me struggling with something in cricket. I didn't really see the wider context or the wider meaning to it all until about four years later, actually, when I actually spoke to someone professionally and independently. And he was like, oh, actually, like these feelings and these thoughts that you're having are synonymous with deeper feelings and more meaningful things. So also when you're when you're playing sport, you just want to compete and want to be out there the whole time.

25:41And the environment that you're in sort of lends itself to that. And I think that was even more so in 2013 than it is now. How do you reflect on that era, Jimmy? Did you notice a marked difference between then and now or how you were then and how you were towards the end of your international career? Do you know what? When I hear Finney talk about that and mention Jonathan Trott there as well, I feel like you sort of almost feel bad for not having, not known that, not knowing someone's going through that at the time, which is difficult. I know, as Finney said, like, no one really wanted to open up back then.

26:16But you feel like as a teammate, you should be, and certainly now I feel like that. Like I would, if someone's being quiet or a bit sort of, you know, insular, I'd try and just turn for a coffee or ask, are you okay? Like, is everything okay? Because I think it is hard for people still. I think it's still difficult in professional sport, especially with young men. I think it's still that sort of macho bravado type thing that is there that you don't want to show any sign of weakness. I think what's happening more and more is making sure people know that it's not. It's actually a strength if you can go and see someone and talk to someone and try and find a way out of whatever the struggles you're having.

27:02But yeah, it is completely like now. It's just there's so much more awareness of it. I just think it's a – and as we've talked about, the media side of it as well, there's much more understanding from that point of view. So I think it is an easier time now to get through some of those things. Also, the other thing to add here, Finney, is we all as cricket fans loved watching you play anyway. You had a fantastic career. Well, exactly. 125 wickets, Ashes winner. You've toured the world. You've done all this amazing stuff. So do you look back with great pride at the stuff you did achieve? because some of those spells you bought, I mean, I look back so fondly looking at some of those ferocious, quick spells that you bowled.

27:48Totally. Yeah, I certainly do. And like, even though the thing that has been sort of pulled out of this book is the tricky time that I had in 2013, 14, when I got sent home from that Ashes tour, the book isn't a classic autobiography in the sense that like, it's like tracks my whole career. It's more just like the ups and the downs and it does focus on the ups in there as well. And I was very lucky to have played one alongside people like Jimmy, who helped us win a lot of games of cricket at that stage in my career, and to do some pretty special things like winning in Australia, winning in India, winning in South Africa, being able to stand on the podium with your mates and lift the ashes three times is something that I'll remember forever.

28:29So for all the **** and the stuff that you go through, it makes the good times worth it. And that's something that I wouldn't change. And that's one of the contradictions that I speak about in the book, that is, although I came out the other side of all of that damaged and carrying the baggage of it, would I change it for the results that we ended up having and the amazing experiences that I had with people like Jimmy? Then it's, no, I wouldn't. I wouldn't change it. And that's a contradiction in itself, but also something that I'm happy to admit to you. Also, no, mate, it's made you really, really good at what you do now, because you can understand every perspective of what cricket is and it should yeah like like greg's alluding to there that's the weird thing i want to reach in when you were saying that and just sort of say to you is like it's so mad how the brain works because you were in the 0.000001 of the highest achievers imaginable at cricket or in sport really and so to be feel like oh this isn't working for me it's just like a fascinating insight into how minds work as well and how people can be so self-critical but also I always get that sense from you that you can see cricket now from every single perspective like and for example when you talk about fast bowling like I remember you did a piece on TMS at the start of this the India series at home and you did like in a lunch break you did a whole chunk on watching Jasper it from the bowl with so much infectious enthusiasm and like understanding about what that was but you really get that as a as a listener someone that's watched you play cricket but that sort of emanates that you've had all those experiences and telling people that yeah I'd be an absolute knob if I had 700 test wickets I'd be insufferable

30:13the fact that things didn't always go my way it's probably good for everyone around me and for society in general so I know that I'm really lucky to do what I do now like I get to sit behind the bowler's arm and watch the best players in the world play against each other and the fact that I know that it's not as easy as everyone thinks it is like when you're watching a game it's so easy to watch and think oh why on earth is he bowled one there what a rubbish shot but like when you when you know what it feels like to be in that position I think you have more of an understanding of the human side of it so yeah I'm very lucky to do what I do and don't want to take it for granted.

30:50I love listening to you on on comms Vinny and I really enjoyed there was there There was a rain delay, I want to say maybe last summer, I can't remember, but I remember driving, listening to you, and they were talking about the Brodie 8 for 15 situation. And I think we've mentioned this on Telenos before, but you were so funny about the fact that I was also bowling really well at that point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Ironically, I think that innings, I probably bowled the best ball of my test career, but no one remembers it. Right, exactly. the away swinging nip backer through the gate to get Peter Neville yeah gets lost in Broadies 8 for 15 how dare it well this is this is one of the nightmares I don't remember that but this is one of the you know we talked about Chris Wokes as well one of the nightmares of existing in an era where you've got a Stuart Broad and a Jimmy Anderson like you know if we didn't have them we'd be so happy with a Stephen Finn anyway we'd like we sort of we were like yeah we would I mean, I wouldn't be.