Noor Murad | Dishes & Stories From My Middle East

0:07Welcome to the Talks at Google podcast, where great minds meet. I'm Emma, bringing you this episode with chef and author Noor Murad. Talks at Google brings the world's most influential thinkers, creators, makers, and doers all to one place. You can watch every episode at youtube.com slash Talks at Google. There's a building in North London built from equal parts brick and tahini, with walls coated in olive oil and floors stained with spice. This is the Ottolenghi Test Kitchen, where a group of individuals meet and eat, cook and write, tear and share, and gather with just one motive. To create good food with good ingredients, and to share it with the world.

0:55Chef and author Noor Murad joined the Ottolenghi Test Kitchen in 2018, eventually becoming its head and the writer of its books, shelf love, and extra good things. Bahrain-born, London-based, and New York-trained, Noor's own recipes have been featured in the New York Times, and she cooked on BBC's Saturday Kitchen. Her Middle Eastern roots have a strong influence on her cooking, with Arabic, Indian, and Persian flavors making a prominent appearance in her recipes. Noor joins Google to discuss her book, Lugma. Lugma is an Arabic word that means a bite. The book offers over 100 recipes as an ode to the food she grew up eating, traditional flavors and modern dishes from Bahrain, and the surrounding Middle East and beyond.

1:46Here is Noor Murad, Lugma, abundant dishes and stories from my Middle East.

2:00Noor, it is an absolute pleasure to welcome you to Talks at Google. Ahla wa sahla fiiki. Oh, thank you. A thousand congratulations on the book. Huge congratulations. Thank you. Huge congratulations on the book. So yeah, I will kick it off. I read the book. It is fascinating. And I am Middle Eastern myself, so I could understand some of the dynamics and some of the nuances. I think what makes your book so interesting is that it's not just about the food. It's not only about the recipes. It's also about the stories that you tell. The book is clearly a mashup of foods from Bahrain, from the Middle East, with a westernized take.

2:41And it's also very fascinating how you straddle that line between the traditional and the reimagined food. But the book is also a very personal account. It's a very personal story, your story, through recipes and food. Can you tell us a little bit more about the book, why you wrote it, and how you cultivated those stories and recipes to be like that? You know, it's always been my dream to write a cookbook since I was little. My mom had all the classics. Like, she had Madhura Jafri's India. She had Ken Hom. She had Anissa Helot, Lebanese Cooking, and obviously like Delia Smith, Nigella Lawson, like all the classics.

3:21And, you know, back then the recipe books weren't so like picture heavy. So you had to like really use your imagination, like read through a whole recipe, see how you thought it was going to look. And I just found it so exciting. But then obviously I got into the food industry and just got swept up in the chaos that is hospitality. And I didn't actually start working in publishing until I started working at Oslinghi Test Kitchen. and that's when I finally got into the world of books and I felt like that's where I belong. And so Lugma, I feel like it's like a lifetime in the making. It really is like my story about my upbringing in Bahrain.

3:57I think it's a part of the Middle East that not enough people know much about and I wanted to bring it to life through food and different stories and different accounts because I think that's how people can connect to a part of the world that they might not know enough about. I do also want to note that April marks Arabic Heritage Month. And this year at Google, we are marking this occasion with a theme, which is diverse branches, shared roots. And really the goal of this is to demonstrate the diversity and really the rich tapestry of the region of Arabic-speaking countries or the Middle East.

4:37And there's just so much diversity across ethnicities, lived experiences, religions, that it's really hard to paint the region with one stroke. What is also fascinating about the book is that you managed to so effortlessly showcase that diversity and celebrate it. And I don't know whether this was an intended outcome, was it a purpose, or maybe it was your actual lived experience in Bahrain. Yeah, you know, Bahraini food is quite unique because throughout history, it was a really important like seaport and center of trade. So a lot of influences kind of came through the islands. And I always say that the three big flavors are like Indian, Persian and Arabic flavors coming all together.

5:24So you have like the big rice flatters and the slow cooked meats that are more like Arabian flavors. But then you also have like food that is super herb heavy, lots of sour flavors, dried limes. That's the influence of Iran. And then it is also super spice heavy. And that is the influence of India. And all these things come together to create this like super unique cuisine. And there's also just the more known foods of the Levant that also are there as well. So, you know, of course, you have your shawarmas and your falafas and your mana 'ish. And so I wanted to kind of show all of this through the book.

6:00And so I think, I mean, obviously, it was well, it was sought out, the recipes. But like, I feel like our food, our Middle Eastern food kind of speaks for itself. I don't need to do much to it. It's already the flavors and are already there and they're just so beautiful. So all I have to do is like combine them in ways that that that comes out in the recipes. Amazing. I want to go back to the book. The title is Lugma. As we said, that means a bite or maybe a mouthful even. And, you know, Lugma is a Bahraini dialect. I'm from the Levant. I'm Palestinian. I wouldn't say it the same way. I would say it differently.

6:36So I found it fascinating the use of language in your book. I think there was a lot of Bahraini dialect that was used to really bring out the story. But also there was a lot of very beautiful calligraphy throughout at the introduction of every section. And if you look very closely, I also found calligraphy hidden on the front cover. Can you tell us a little bit about Arabic, Bahraini dialect, language, and how that is, the significance of that in recipes and food and writing. Yeah, of course. So I might be a bit biased, but I think that Arabic is perhaps one of the most beautiful languages in the world.

7:15Actually, when we were coming up for the calligraphy for this book, obviously my editor didn't know how to read Arabic, but she just said, like, it looks like really pretty swizzles. And I was like, yeah, that's about, it looks good to you, it looks good to me. So yeah, but I really wanted to, you know, I'm bilingual. My dad is Arab, he's Bahraini, and my mom is English, actually. She's from Northampton. But yeah, she moved to the Middle East over 40 years ago, so she's an honorary Bahraini at this point. And, you know, they always kind of kept my two worlds very much alive in my upbringing. I went to an Arabic school, and Arabic was my first language.

7:55So it was really important to me to showcase that in the book. but I always say that dialect is very interesting in the Middle East because at school they teach us Fosha, which is classical Arabic but nobody speaks Fosha. It would be like people speaking Shakespearean English to each other. It would be really weird. So every single country has its own slang and its own dialect and so the Khaliji countries, the Gulf, also have their own slang and each country then has its unique way of speaking. So Bahraini Arabic is quite casual, I'd say. It's quite a casual approach in comparison to, I'd say, the Levant Arabic, which I always say that your Arabic is a bit more sing-songy.

8:40It sounds that way to me. But whereas ours, I think, is a bit harsh. So, like, for example, Lugma, the classical Arabic is Lugma, because it's Qa. But we would never say that. We'd just drop it. We'd soften it. So it's Lugma. And it was really important to me to kind of introduce that into the book and like in different ways and conversation. Because I just find it so fascinating and so interesting how we're all so different, even though we have one language. Absolutely. Let's go back to the flavors. And I want to talk about Black Lime, also known as Lumi, and I believe it has other names. It is on the table over there, right?

9:25Yes, it is. It is right here. So, Noor has been credited for taking this spice to the international stage. It's gone global. You can find it in Waitrose here in London. You can find it all over the world. So, I want you to tell us a little bit more about what it is to begin with. And then, why are you so passionate about it? And why have you been on a mission to make sure everybody knows what Lumi is? So these are dried limes. They come in two different colors. So this one is the natural one. They're both sun-dried, and they're both exactly the same thing. Just the black limes have been heat-treated to give them that dark color.

10:08But really, they're interchangeable in flavor. They're really, like, earthy and bitter. And we use them. It's the backbone of cooking in the Gulf, Iran, Iraq. and you could throw them into stews, soups, rice dishes. You can even grind it up and use it as a marinade for meats. It's almost like acts as a tenderizer. And I just think it is such a magical ingredient because you can do so much with it. And in the book, there's just loads of recipes. You can even make a tea out of it. I use it in a dessert as like in a flan, like stir it into the base of the caramel. So kind of like cuts through that like rich creaminess otherwise.

10:49So yeah, I mean, they've obviously been around for years and years and years, so I, you know, I can't claim them. But I am on a mission to kind of spread them and popularize them in the West because I just think they're so versatile and they're so amazing. And what they can do to a dish and transform it in such a beautiful way, I think is really special and worth celebrating. Amazing. Can you tell us again about food? I want to know what is the most iconic Bahraini dishes and in general what would you also tell us more about the flavors Bahraini dishes and how is like life in the history impact the recipes and the food?

11:33Honestly anything you want us to know about Bahrain. It's fascinating. It is an island and it's the only island in the region. So tell us more about it, more about how the recipes, the location of it has influenced the recipes as well. Yeah, I say that Bahrain is, Bahraini food is super rustic. Like it's very, very comforting. There's no faff about it, but some of the recipes have like extremely long ingredient list, like so many spices. And it's one of those countries that I think like we share this throughout the Middle East, I think is that every household has its own way. So you make it and then someone else be like well my mom does it this way and so it's better.

12:13So you kind of are always bickering about like the true way to do things. But yeah it is an island so it's pretty heavy on the seafood as well. We love our fish usually very heavily spiced. Yeah but Harani seafood is like I really love it because it's very salty. Even the prawns are just amazing. And you know you have anything from slow cooked stews things that take a very long time. You'd a bit of patience to like cooking on charcoal and you've got like smoky grills and that kind of stuff. But you know generally part of the land is quite fertile and there's natural springs so you do have your local veg but a lot of stuff has been introduced through trade.

12:56So for example rice is the main carb in Bahrain and it's one of those carbs that like you don't sit down at the table if there's no rice on the table it has to appear. So that's why there's a whole rice chapter in Lugma. And I know I'm in a potato-loving nation, but I want to argue that rice is so much better. But so, yeah, so there's a lot of rice dishes and that was introduced through trade and has now become like such a staple. So, I mean, one of the dishes I'm making today is called madruba. It's quite unusual, which is why I chose it. But it means beaten in Arabic. and it is a rice dish and it's kind of like if you were going to make like a spice rice but then add too much water and you let it cook and then you kind of like shred the chicken and you beat it really nicely and then another dish that I love people always ask me what's your favorite dish in the book it's called fagata and it's a really like unique dish and it's truly truly Bahraini.

13:54So Qaa in Arabic means the bottom of something. So in Bahrain, often fishermen will say like Qaaat al-Bahar, so the very bottom of the sea. So that name was used for the bottom of the pot. So Faaqaaat, so in the bottom. And that's where all the good stuff happens, obviously. So you add chicken and like loads of onions, tomato, potato, yee, loads of spices, black lime obviously, and you just leave it at the bottom of the pot and then you top it with parboiled rice and then you pour it with like this over some saffron rose water so it's super fragrant. You put a lid on and you just let it cook for like an hour and 45 minutes and your whole kitchen smells amazing and super super fragrant and then you invert it so So then bottom is top, top is bottom.

14:45And it's just so wonderful. It's like this amazing dish that you can just dig into. And it's really, really comforting. But it's so intricate. And that's what I say that our food, it is. Like the layering of flavors is so unique. And yet you eat it and it just feels like a warm hug. So yeah, that is Bahraini food, I think, in a very long way. Thank you. Fascinating. I did mention that the book had a lot of personal storytelling and a lot of, I would say, maybe even stories that bring out vulnerability and growth. And there is something to be said that food is beyond sustenance. The making of food, the eating of food.

15:25And there were stories about how food helped you find home, almost. Can you talk a little bit about the relationship with food? obviously also food is a passion for you that has also become your job. Can you talk a little about those dynamics? Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, when I moved to London, I moved here almost nine years ago now. And, you know, I didn't really think much about black lines and these kind of things. So they just existed in my life. But it wasn't until I moved here in my late 20s that I really kind of felt this sense of like loss of like who I was and where I belong and oftentimes you just find that identity in in the kitchen and in cooking and yeah I just became quite lost in this cooking like my rice dishes and my slow cooks and and you know and my lentils and everything like that and it brought like the flavors of home because even though I was working at Athelenghi and there was like quite a few Middle Eastern dishes.

16:27It wasn't my Middle East, it was the Levant, which is completely different and beautiful and amazing in its own right, but there was no representation of the food that I knew and I loved. So yeah, I often turn to food when I don't really know where to turn at all. But at the same time, when you work in recipe developing and you're constantly cooking and you're constantly tasting, like any chef will tell you, you just want to go home and you don't just have a bowl of soup or have a bowl of cereal and just be like done with it. So like I often say like our relationships to food are so unique, you know.

17:02Oftentimes it's not really about like feeding your stomach. It's more about feeding your heart. And yeah, I think I really channel that energy when I created the recipes for Lugma. I really kind of questioned myself when I was making it. I was like, is this just a recipe? Because like I need to fill in the blanks. I really need a potato recipe. So I'll just put it in the book. or is this generally a recipe that I really, really, really want to cook for my friends and my loved ones? And yeah, I just had to have those conversations with myself when I really thought about how to put Lugma together.

17:32And you also talk a little bit in the book about how Lugma was inspired from the way you develop recipes, right? So you had to take a bite of things and then figure out how to improve them. Was that also part of the story? Yeah, definitely. I mean, as you explained, lughma means a bite in Arabic. And I always say it's the ultimate form of love because in the Middle East we're feeders. We love to feed people almost to the point of discomfort sometimes. And yeah, we'll offer them a bite from our plates. So my grandfather always used to say like, and he would offer me a bite from his plate with his hands.

18:14So that is the ultimate form of love, I say. So if anyone tries to feed you, you know that that is just like a good sign. So, yeah, and I think also in developing recipes, I'm constantly having to take just like bites out of things because all you really need is one bite and you just have to sit with it and be like, what does this do? Is it right? And so like the name of the book came very naturally because I was like, oh, actually, like this is the ultimate form of love. And it's also what I do on a day to day basis. Amazing. Switching gears a bit, social media. I actually came across your amazing cooking during COVID.

18:56So that's five years ago now. And it's been life changing for me. I finally do cook. So it's been really life changing. What can you tell us about as a chef and having been in the industry for quite some time? What can you tell us about the impact of social media? And how do you manage and work with it? I mean, like many people, I think I have a love-hate relationship with social media. Sometimes I'm like, this is a monster and we created it. And other times I'm like, well, this is the way to reach people on a global level. So, yeah, I think social media definitely went through like a complete boom during lockdown, which is probably how you found me, because everybody was home cooking sourdough.

19:41Apparently I was making madruba and chickpeas. But yeah, but it really helped people to connect at a time where nobody could. So I think it can be used as a very powerful tool. It's just sometimes to our own detriment, I think, with the doom scroll. And yeah, so I think it's just like learning that balance and knowing when to put it down and like kind of disconnect. Because I feel like social media, especially in the food world, is just so intense. It's like video after video of content creators doing all these amazing, very, very polished things. But almost it just doesn't feel like real life.

20:26And I think sometimes we just have to remind ourselves of that and bring ourselves back to the cooking of our childhood. So what we grew up eating and what your grandma would make for you or your parents would make for you. Because that's more real and that's real food. So yeah, I think, yes, social media is a, you know, it's got its good side and its bad side, I think. Absolutely. Before we jump into the cooking, I do want to ask you, since we're in the UK, your mom is British, what can you tell us about the influences of British cuisine in your cooking and what can we expect in the book? So my mom is, she clung onto her English roots quite a lot when we were growing up.

21:08which is hard to do when you're in an island in the Persian Gulf. But she was really big on Christmas and Pancake Day. Like, those are the two things that she absolutely was like, my children need to have this. So, yeah, you know, sunny day, 18 degrees on December 25th, fake tree. But we would do it all. And I think she also did cook. Like, my mom's a very adventurous cook. She loved to, like, cook from all parts of the world but never the golf food because I think she was quite intimidated by it. It's very different. But yeah, you can kind of see that reflected in the book. There is an ode to my mom's pancakes in the book, but mom always went with the classic like lemon and sugar, which I can't beat.

21:54It is a great combo. So in the book, I've done it with like a burnt honey lime syrup with pistachios and sugar and lime zest. There's my take on a tuna jacket potato, which I know is like you know quite a favorite here in the UK but there's no mayonnaise and no tin sweet corn I'm afraid but it's got this really lovely like Middle Eastern spice tuna sauce with lime yogurt and herbs so it kind of like takes this jacket potato to different heights and there's Middle Eastern bolognese as well because you know every house has to have like a good spag bol but in the Middle East we cook it with lamb and we are not shy in our spices so we call it like macaroni so you have it with like yeah macaroni and this like very spiced lamb lamby bolognese which is just so delicious so yeah I urge people to give it a try but yeah that's kind of how I bridge my two worlds and I think that's that's how yeah where I belong kind of has made sense to me in the kitchen really incredible thank you so much Noor we will jump into the cooking right now so So as we said, there will be a demo.

23:03And from there, the audience will get to sample some of the food. Yes. Can you remind us, what are we cooking? What are we making? So I chose two completely different dishes. One of them is very traditional, and one of them is just completely out there. And I just kind of want to show how you can still make the very traditional dishes, and then also use what you know and the flavors that you know to create something completely unique and different. So I'm starting with madrooba, which as I said is the beaten chicken and rice. And it's quite a laborious dish. There's lots of different steps. But what you want to start with is a really great base of onions, sauteed, you know, you've got ginger garlic, you've got your bone in chicken, and then loads of spices.

23:51And that's how you start the base. So yeah, if you start with a good foundation, you know that the end is going to be a good result. So yeah, I'm just going to get in. Amazing. I'm going to hold this for now. Let me try to jump in here. We're going to hang around the butterbeams, sir. Okay. Any allergies, guys? Just have those peanuts and onions. Okay. I'm dairy. All right. Thank you.

24:28So, is it going to be like a 15 minute probably? Yeah, I'd say roughly about that. Yeah. While we're cooking, I was actually thinking about, there's obviously, as you mentioned, a lot of spices. Yeah. For somebody who is not familiar with Middle Eastern cooking, who would like to start, what would you say is the accessibility these days for these kinds of spices? I know Lumi is on the market now, but what about the other recipes in your book? Do you feel that the ingredients are accessible and available? Yeah, I do think they are. Besides Lumi, I don't really think there's anything that's not accessible, as long as you have a very well-stocked spice cupboard.

25:14That's all that really matters. And then you can make all the dishes. Also, I can see that you're currently tasting the second dish, which I can talk about. So this is my completely out there dish of butter beans. So we love our beans, especially in Bahrain. And we love our dairy. So they're tossed in just like a very simple yogurt sauce. And then they're topped with a Middle Eastern chili crisp. So this is not a condiment that my grandma ever made. But I kind of just was so inspired. I love chili crisps and like kind of oily chili based sauces. So this one has fried shallots and garlic and pine nuts and then really lovely spices.

26:01So you've got caraway and fennel and coriander seeds mixed with loads of different chili. So you just that's kind of what makes the dish. you kind of pour it on top so you've got like creamy soft bean then you've got this lovely textured chili crisp on top and this is how you can kind of yeah introduce middle eastern flavors into dishes in a way that is super fun and different i think

26:42Let me know if I can help in any way. Yeah, it's fine. Feed up the process.

26:58So I got the chicken gone in and now I'm going to throw in the lyumi. Because these are really hard but they're going to soften in time. Can you remind us, Noor, between the dark one and the lighter one? Yeah. One is just, why is it darker? So it is heat-treated in a factory. That's what makes it black. But they are kind of the same. So you can use them interchangeably. Except in Bahrain, we tend to use the black ones more. They're just more dramatic. We love a bit of drama. And also, if you grind them up, we have this very traditional dish called tikka, which is basically like beef or lamb skewered with like lamb fat in between and the marinade is ground black lime and it's like yeah some people add yogurt or a bit of oil but it's just very heavy on the ground black lime and then you cook it on charcoal and yeah you just need the black lime because it's just it yeah it kind of is like a lot more attractive it gives it that really really dramatic look um as well it feels like a lot of the of in general middle eastern food you really need um a lot of people around the table it's actually more challenging to do a meal for like a one person yeah one person kind of thing would you agree yeah definitely i've i i'm a batch cook kind of girl i don't really know when you say like one portion i'm like I don't know what that means um so yeah I'd rather just do something like a big pot of rice or you know a big pot of like mjadara or something like that and then you can have it for a few days um that makes a lot more sense to me uh yeah so kind of like cook once eat four times absolutely

28:55In the book, you mentioned that you have a day tree at home in Bahrain. Is that still there? And I'm very jealous, by the way. Are you? Yeah, so my dad in his retirement, all of his big retirement projects is the date harvest. So we've got four palm trees in our garden. And my dad takes this very seriously. So every August is the time for the harvest. And yeah, he gets the dates. he has this guy who comes in to hack at the dates when they're ready. And then he used to put out these sunbeds, like sun tanning beds, so then he put all the dates on them and dry them out in the sun. And these variety of dates are called khalas.