LIVE FROM NYSE FOR $FIG | Dylan Field, Lynn Martin, Kris Rasmussen, Andrew Reed, Danny Rimer, Mamoon Hamid

25:12There we go. Oh. Oh, so emotional. So emotional. It's remarkable. Going through the almost acquisition blocked. And to make it back here well beyond. And the employees, too. I mean, the resilience, right? Totally. We saw this last week or the week before. A couple weeks ago. You know, the Windsurf team thinking that they're getting acquired by OpenAI. Yeah, it's a roller coaster. It doesn't go through. And that was a different scenario. but they really had to build, you know, find a new gear. Yeah, and I mean, we all know that there was a breakup fee. Yeah, it didn't hurt. But the value of focus is just so underrated.

25:56And you think about that for that, like, how long were they going through that process, like a year? And the amount of distraction, both from just like a legal, compliance, financial thing, but also just like, well, you think you're going to partner up with somebody. Are you going to build a competitor? or are you going to be like, okay, let's just not put that, let's push that out on the roadmap because we're partnering with them. Scott Belsky was, I imagine, into it, effectively running the show over there. And, you know, disappointing for him as well, but he obviously was very congratulatory.

26:32Yes. Sarah says, I'll close it out. She says, we're all going to be designers eventually. Congratulations, Figma. And yeah, design's going public today. I'm going to pull up Scott's post. Yeah, yeah, read me Scott's post. What a crazy day. Citadel Securities in the back looking great. Scott says, thrilled for my friend Dylan and the whole Figma team today upon such a milestone. There are few products that have had such an impact on the lives of designers, our everyday experiences of products and the value of design. He says, I had a unique opportunity to get to know the entire Figma management team and business very deeply a few years ago.

27:12Of course, Scott was at Adobe at the time, one of the key players in the deal. And he says, what I learned inspired me in many ways and makes me confident that this team is just getting started. This is a team with deep empathy for their customer. They, of course, in my words, are the customer. That's part of what Figma uses Figma to make Figma. It's like this perfect partnership. The S1 showed that. The S1 showed that. It was very nicely. Greatest designed S1 of all time. But yeah, the story here is the thoughtfulness, right? Down to the signage in the building today. Every single step has been considered.

27:53And they have to, right? If they want to help other people have great design, they need to lead by example. I have a post here from John Lilly, who was, I believe John was at Greylock. Okay. Let me confirm that. Yeah. I saw Greylock on the cap table. Pretty big shareholder. Probably over 10%. Greylock led the A. Okay. John Lilly. And John Lilly. And John Lilly threw a bunch of pro ratas. Yes. Did quite well. Yep. John says, today's IPO is a landmark moment for Figma. not just a financial milestone, but a powerful validation of Dylan and Evan's founding vision back in 2012 to eliminate the gap between imagination and reality.

28:37Figma's relentless focus on product, community, and craft has reshaped how the world designs. What began as a bold technical challenge, building a web-based design tool that felt native, evolved into a platform that helped millions of creators design and build together. In a 2003 interview about the iPod. Steve Jobs famously said, design is not just what it looks like and feels like, design is how it works. Figma built around this idea, building tools so that designers of all kinds come together, not just to make things beautiful, but to make them work better. And now we're standing at the threshold of a new era, one defined by the rise of artificial intelligence.

29:13It's an especially important moment to ask, what does the future of design look like? I think that's on everybody's mind. I think a lot of people have good ideas for what it can look like. John says design has always existed in the space between tools and human intention. And as Mitch Kapoor wrote in his 1990 software design manifesto, what is design? It's where you stand with a foot in two worlds, the world of technology and the world of people and human purposes. And you try to bring the two together. That's powerful. 35 years later, that's still the clearest expression I know of what great design strives to do.

29:50And it's what Figma enables a connection between imagination and reality and between the systems we build and the people we build them for between our machines and ourselves. Not my words, not John's, but it's so funny to think about how when you are interacting with anything online, there's like probably like an 80 % chance that it was built with Figma at some point or another. You can't open an app on your phone and not have a designer under the hood that probably spends, you know, hours and hours a day in Figma. I have so many great memories. And the stock is over$100 now. This is remarkable.

30:31And I saw something that it seemed like there was potentially some sort of circuit breaker going on where there was like a limit up where it seemed like they stopped trading for a little bit and then resumed. But the stock is jumping all over to the place I'm seeing, like 107 now. Really, really on a rocket ship today. Couple of fond memories for me. One is with Brandon Jacoby, who's at X. He's a free agent now. We'll see how long that sticks. One of the greatest Figma users to ever do it. And I have so, there was so many nights when we were building Party Round that it was like deep COVID, so we were often remote.

31:07And so many nights we would spend just in Figma and had Zoom in the background. Figma just like just grinding it out and I cherish those memories the other thing Samit over formerly at Andreessen brought up today when I posted earlier he said that when I was pitching a 16 Z originally almost the entire pitch I didn't have a deck when I first met them so the entire was walking around all of our product showing them the product showing them where we wanted to take it And so it's really just been such a such a core core part. I'll close it out with John. He says on a personal level, too, this is a significant moment for me.

31:49I was lucky in my career to be mentored by some of the best thinkers and designers in the world. Terry Winograd and David Kelly at Stanford and later Mitch Kapoor and many others. And from the very first time I set foot in Figma's offices, I felt like I'd come home. Dylan and Evan had built a temple of design with typography books scattered around. We love temples. Let's give it up for temples. But the whole company culture was infused with a belief in and a reverence for designers and their work. And that's still the core value of Figma today. I love it. We made somebody mad sometime when we joked on the show.

32:25We joked on the show that Figma hadn't released some feature fast enough. They released the ability to create more responsive designs automatically. And we were like, people were protesting the street for this one. And somebody came out and very angrily messaged us saying no one was protesting. No one was protesting. This is fake news. And we were like, okay, we were joking. But people do love Figma. It's a thing. Yeah, people get emotional about it. That was the thing. We were at Config, and the number of people that there was somebody from every country there. It was standing room only. It was crazy.

32:58The community is wild. Yeah. John says, one of the other things that Mitch said to me about entrepreneurship is that you've got to build a house you want to live in. In other words, build organizations that can help create the world you want by elevating and empowering designers. Figma has done that in a profound and lasting way. Here's to the team at Figma and to continue to build the world of designing together. It's so true. I mean, in a world without Figma, every digital product that you use is less beautiful. Every website that you use is less beautiful. Do you think in the original Microsoft formulation of what a platform is, Figma fits that definition?

33:37So the original, I think it was Bill Gates's conception of it was a platform is a business or product where the value that is created on top of the platform is greater than the value that is captured by the platform. For sure. So the classic example is Microsoft Windows. they're like the windows app ecosystem uh uh is larger than the amount of money captured by just windows licenses and when you think about it's a little bit different because although there is a third-party ecosystem there are also like design agencies that probably wouldn't exist yeah i mean the part of why figma has such a great brand is they can't possibly they can't possibly capture there's so much value creation like happening on the platform yep and it's as simple as like a company signing up, two founders paying 50 bucks a month or whatever it is.

34:25Everyone feels like they got their money's worth. Yeah. And creating something that allows them to go, creating a deck that allows them to raise millions of dollars or creating a product with millions of users. Yep. And that flow of like somebody can be a freelance designer, sign up for Figma, create designs that they can go sell. And yeah, I think it definitely fits the definition. It's very much, it's an operating system for people that design and build software. We talked a little bit about it yesterday. Ben Thompson gave a breakdown on Stratechery, which you should go read and subscribe to, obviously, of this Figma S1 and the IPO prospects.

34:58And he was highlighting the potential benefit of being a public company and having public company stock to do M &A with. And I'm wondering where you sit on the M &A question. There's the world where Figma has a talented team that can build new products. They also have this network effect. They have amazing go-to-market sales motion. But if they were to acquire something, what do you think would be the right angle? Is it more something like a foundational technology that can improve all the products or some sort of new line extension, new skew to add on to the portfolio of products? I think that's where the debate should be going forward.

35:38Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I'm less excited about what they... I'm personally I'm more excited about them acquiring better, you know, I mean, the team is obviously beyond stacks. It's one of the most talented groups in, in, in certainly design of the most talented group in design and, and one of the most talented teams in the industry broadly. I'm less excited about individual app plays, although there's some exciting gen AI applications that are growing quickly. Figma has compelling products in those categories, right? You look at Figma make Figma sites, right? And everything they're doing around making it so that anyone within an organization can generate designs that are on brand.

36:20I guess the question is, yeah, like, and again, trading has been halted at$112 on a limit up. If someone goes out and builds not just a tool that is complimentary, but also has a network and is starting to bootstrap a network, that feels like the Instagram, Facebook moment and something that would potentially merit an M &A. But just building a tool or different approach to the product or different feature, always this question about like, is it a feature or is it a company? And I think that'll be something that people are debating going forward. Yeah, they acquired a buddy of mine, Jordan Singer's company.

37:01Yeah, that's right. I think it was probably two plus years ago. and he was in building and you know very early to building in generative AI and I believe they integrated a lot of what he was working on yeah I do wonder on the on the M &A topic like what is the formula for success because there's a little bit of a meme in Silicon Valley that like you should never sell your company it can never work then there are like these zombie acquires that feel like something that people want to avoid and so one of the questions that's been kicking around in my head is like, what is the shape of the company or founding team or employee base that is suitable for an acquisition that could actually integrate well and be something where everyone is happy a decade later?

37:42Like, oh yeah, that was a fantastic partnership. That was great. It probably has to be something around the acceleration that would happen post acquisition. And then also just the actual integration and - Yeah, there was a while back, you remember this company, It was a six-month-old solo-owned Vibe Coder. I remember this, yeah. Base 44 sold to Wix for$80 million. Wix was not, to my knowledge, not in the game at all from a generative AI standpoint. So it looks like we have our first guest lined up here. Let's bring him in. We have Andrew Reid coming in. Andrew Reid. In a beautiful suit, looking great.

38:21Somebody confused me for Andrew Reid earlier. You guys do look somewhat similar. They said, hey, you're Andrew, right? I said, I am not, but he is close by. What's going on Andrew welcome to the stream you're alive. How you doing you are live

38:38Yes, we're very happy to be put on the since six months ago has paid off flawlessly because we don't have to dress up for something like this It's just my microphone. That's your wonderful. How are you doing? Give us your reactions. How's this day been for you? Let's see. Well first off congrats to your initial public appearance of the New York Stock Exchange. Thank you. Thank you. It's very exciting Today has been, it's been a good day. You know, you open, Dylan rang the bell at 9.30 and it's 2.11 p.m. Eastern right now. Sure. So we've been milling around for many hours. It's a little exhausting.

39:09It opened and yeah, it's amazing seeing the team here. Yeah. And just the excitement of everyone chanting Figma and seeing all the traders in their swagged out Figma jackets. The jackets are fantastic. The jackets are amazing. I'm going to go and start market bidding jackets after this because those are totally iconic. The thing that stood out to me is all the little, like they really made, they really made a nice either home. Like every, like every single place you look, there's something Figma and it's just so, so incredibly well done. Yeah. And this one of my, one of the experiences I've had with Figma, you know, dating back to when we first invested seven years ago was it's a company that, overnight success.

39:49It's a company that's always had extraordinary attention to detail and, you know, it shows up when you do an all hands at their office. S1. The board side is the S1, config the conference. How they applied that attention to detail to NYSE is incredible because there's applying the attention to detail and then realizing all the things you can do in terms of the signs on the ground and the party outside. They just did an unbelievable job. They have to be doing things that haven't been done before. Yeah. I think the takeover outside was breathtaking. And I'm obviously very biased because when I see the Figma logo, I get very excited.

40:22But yeah, it's like... Did you see the roadshow? Did you go to any of the roadshow? I heard there was like a long product demo there, which is kind of uncommon. Yeah. So I think this is true for many CEOs, but especially for Dylan. Like Dylan cares a lot about the product. Yeah. And it's important that everybody who is considering investing in the company really knows what Figma, not just what Figma stands for in design and creativity and all the things you see, but really how the product works. And it was not a five-minute flyby, look at the cool, shiny features. The product demo was, they were in the weeds.

41:00I, in fact, uncovered parts of the product I didn't know existed. But it was good. I think it's important, again, part of, that's who Dylan is. He actually cares so deeply about every single pixel and every single feature, and then that shows through. How early did you actually meet Dylan? Sarah Guo was posting earlier that pre-launch they were burning$800 ,000 a month, which just sounds like that's the most nerve-wracking scenario for any, you know, a lot of founders will go through that at some point. But when did you realize what a special founder he was? Well, Dylan and Evan, by the way, I think it's a nice moment to take a pause and just give a shout out to Evan Wallace.

41:42He's like an absolute legend. And I think the stories that people here tell about Evan are just, you know, they'll go on. Chris, who's going to come on next, you know, is the Figma CTO. He'll, I think, have a lot of, he'll tell you actually all the stuff Evan did in the code base, but allegedly it's insane. And, you know, well, and just going like taking another step back, people have like people love to use Figma as an example that it's OK to take a long time to ship your product. And I think most like almost always when I hear a founder say well figment took four years I go well, you're not Evan Wallace And you're not like fundamentally changing, you know the way that like software works online.

42:24Yeah You you're just you're building enterprise workflow workflows. You should probably ship like next month Yeah, the other thing about the you know, you can take take as long as you need, you know Figma There's something that Roloff talks a lot about for our business, which is the red queen dynamic. You have to run faster and faster just to stay in the same place. And I think in a world of accelerating technology change, in order to win in your markets, you just have to run the company faster and do more. And obviously, AI is allowing companies to do a lot more. Isn't the red queen race usually an anecdote of something you want to avoid getting into?

43:02Well, that's just the truth of technology, I think. It's the truth of venture capital and the truth of enterprise software, business to business. And if you look at how, you know, when Figma went from four products to eight products at Config, right? Like the pace, and I think everyone who uses the product feels it. Like the pace is just picking up. Yeah, we got a little preview of Config, and I messaged Nairi. I was like, wait, you're announcing all of this at Config? Like all four of these? It was like four major announcements, and that's what picking up the pace looks like and finding that new gear.

43:35Yeah. How are you thinking about org design changing in the age of AI? This is something I've been talking to a lot of folks about. There's taking designers and giving them the ability to ship code. They're kind of this flip from going from a 0x engineer, a designer, to a 1x engineer. And that gain can sometimes be better than taking a 10x engineer and making them a little bit better because you just unlock this new capability. How are you thinking about companies just broadly thinking about AI as a product vertical that is its own silo versus something that infuses the whole company? What are you hearing?

44:09What are you seeing? I've been thinking about that question a lot. The way I kind of craft the archetype would be the creative technologist. And I think in the same way that all of us are capable of scribbling something on a piece of paper when we're bored in a meeting, I think similarly all of us are going to be capable of creating something on the Internet. It's actually interactive. Exactly. And I think that has been happening for a while. I think it's picking up steam in an incredible pace. And I think this role of creative technologist, I think, you know, in big companies, you'll still probably have siloed engineering, product design, you know, marketing teams.

44:44I think in our small companies like the founding, the founding engineers, founding teams, people are wearing a lot of hats, right? And using tools like Figma to do everything from ideation to prompt something to iterate, get in the hands of users and actually, you know, publish code. I think that the small companies, I bet will leave the way. Even my buddy at Andreessen said that when I was first pitching them, we weren't like actually raising it. I didn't have a deck. And so I just was in Figma screen sharing, showing them the product and showing them all the different ways that we were going to take it and things like that.

45:15And it's just and again, that that's just like evidence of Figma not being for designers. No, I never thought I thought it was a tool for building things. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. One dynamic Ben Thompson has been talking about is that as a public company, sometimes it can be easier to do M &A. Have you ever run into that in your career just broadly of a company where that is an important factor in kind of their long term strategy? I've always generally the meme has been like stay private as long as possible. But, you know, there's a reason companies go public. There are obviously tons of benefits.

45:50But what is the M &A dynamic in public and private markets right now? Yeah, I think there's what you learn when you start out at Goldman Sachs. You have access to the capital markets, you have a public currency for M &A, you know, blah, blah, blah. You tell your story. To me, the reason why I'm so happy with the IPO timing today is coming off of Config a few months ago and just like feeling the energy. You guys were there and felt the energy amongst the community, like the incredible community surrounding Figma. And then being able to tell that story and all the stuff we're doing with our new product initiatives, with AI and tell it to the broader world.

46:31In the S1, we reported, I think, 13 million monthly active users, two-thirds of which are not designers. Did you know, was that your guess early on? Did you fully see that the TAM for this was not, like, how many designers are there and just, like, add it up and multiply it? Did you, I imagine you believe that it could be used across... The TAM expander. It's similar to what I was saying with the, you know, I think the creative technologist archetype who's going to do a lot of things and eventually in 10 years, the way that companies run their product engineering teams will probably look very different.

47:08I think similarly, like they're worse, they were even, you know, predating our investment. There were definitely examples of teams that went all in on the Figma way, collaborative way of building products. And you had, you know, full product engineering design teams at small companies or even at mid-sized companies. I remember Airbnb and Square were in our portfolio and we talked to them before we invested and they were you know Early at pioneering this, you know, we're getting off of the drop-back links being sent around. We're you know, we're going all in on on you know working in Figma and It turns out is a much better way of shipping products if you wanted to ship really good products quickly and therefore the entire world seemingly Changed its mind in a few years.

47:49I think similarly some small companies are gonna find their new ways of doing things They're going to move really fast. It's going to be obvious that there's like a new archetype emerging I think many of those people are going to live in Figma. I think the most creative community on the internet today already exists in Figma I always it felt even I remember using it as a Like a social app In the sense that like I would get I would it'd be late at night I would open my laptop and I'd be like, oh Brandon's up Go over to wherever he was designing. I'd be like hey, what's up, dude? I would just type a comment.

48:22And it was almost like a lot of people built these in these virtual offices, but Figma was our virtual office. Oh, it's interesting, yeah. Where I'd just be like, hey, what's up? Or I'd just mess with them and change a button color. Yeah, and one thing I'm really excited about with the new products is they're both raising the ceiling of what it is possible to do for the most creative people in Figma. Like Figma Draw, for instance, right? Like the ability to do like really interesting artistic creative work inside of Figma files and also massively racing the floor for those of us who are more Excel inclined in our creative abilities.

49:00Cell coded. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I think it's so rare to find like technology shifts that allow companies to capture both of those things. Usually there's a tradeoff. Yeah. And yeah, it's really exciting. I mean, Excel kind of served the same purpose. Totally. But just decades ago, right? Totally. Yeah. Yeah, and similarly to the idea of Figma slides came out of this intuition, or not even intuition, it's the reality that many people were torquing Figma files into slide decks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a file called deck formatting that I've shared with probably hundreds of people at this point.

49:35I'm like, this is how I build decks. This is how I build fundraising decks. Here's like 50 examples for each page. And I would just send it out to everyone. They could just copy it and start working off of it. Can you have any of that, Bob? That sounds great. It's great. We don't have to make many decks at TVPN. We should start making more decks just for each other. We should, yeah. It'd be great. Last question. I think we'll let you go. I want to talk about the culture and hiring changes and just how going public changes any of that. How do you describe the culture of someone who's a good fit to become a figmate?

50:10Ooh, that's a really good question. you know when I was reflecting as the series C lead when I was reflecting on what I was going to tweet today you know because there's always a fine balance right like how do I tweet something to say congrats without doing the you know can you believe this amazing I kind of went into a very paranoid headspace of how do I get you know not end up in the wrong quadrant we just go too far you're welcome you said congrats to the incredible figment team the most creative determined imaginative and positive group of people. I'm just so happy for all of your success.

50:43There we go. And I was, I almost responded, our success. So those four adjectives, I think they are, they are creative. I think I tried to pull off an analogy when I was talking to you guys at Config about how everybody, everybody who was at Config would be a good tattoo artist for my, my face painting artist for my daughter. And my brother said that was, that analogy did not land. They're very creative. I think they're extremely determined. I think this is a company that when the early days of burning however much money they were burning a month and not having product market fit and grinding your way to product market fit.

51:17And all the twists and turns over the last seven, eight years since they really started their ascent. But you still have the hardcore WebGL crew. Yeah. And that's not quite foundation model level AI research, but it's serious engineering. It's a company that does hard things. They are not afraid of doing really hard things. I think they're imaginative. I think that's like, you know, the make-believe billboard you see in San Francisco. It's a company that really does think out there And I think Dylan obviously Dylan is on the bleeding edge of technology and they're positive like they are Just good human beings and you know looking at obviously the reaction to the To the IPO is just look around.

51:54These are awesome people who are so cool. The valedictorian of my high school works at Figma My name is Katie Zito. She's a legend of PM here. She's literally like the smartest person I knew in high school and How she builds products of Figma and it's cool I'm just so happy with I really am happy for their success in your success

52:15Didn't put it out but yesterday we did the we did it meme with ramp

52:23But now ramps congratulating Figma with the big billboard today You know they had that idea Monday. We were on the phone with them and they were like, yeah, we think we might get a banner because our office is right across the street from Figma's New York office. We should just hang it out. And it's like this 40 by 40. It's unbelievable. It looks like it's a Figma canvas. I will say the ramp thinking Figma with TBP and the New York Stock Exchange, today's a big day. Yeah, it's a big day for you guys. It's a big day. Yeah, it's awesome. Well, thank you so much for stopping by. Yeah, thanks for being here.

52:51Enjoy talking to everyone else. Yes, we will. Hopefully we'll see you later. I hope we'll see you later. That's been great. Congratulations on your success. Congratulations. I'll talk to you soon. Let's bring in our next guest to the studio. We are going to tweak some cameras and give you an update. What did he say? Celebrate the moment. Celebrate the moment, says Jim Cramer. And we certainly are. And we are at 101.54 and it's getting quieter. The folks of the Citadel Securities crew. Disappointed that nobody's manually executing trades. I also didn't see a single crowd surfing event happen. Maybe we can make it happen still.

53:28Good to meet you. Good to meet you. Where should we start? But please introduce yourself for the stream. Let people know who you are. Yeah, I'm Chris Rasmussen. I'm the CTO at Figma. Great. Take us a little bit through your journey with the company. When did you join? What have you been working on? All that. It's amazing to have like a barely a two sentence, you know, intro that just tells everything you need to really know. Took a lot to get there. Yeah, it's a lot easier now than it was in the beginning to explain it. But yeah, I joined Figma through a roundabout means. I actually started off as a contractor with the company.

53:56No way. So for the first eight months, I was just writing code, helping to get the product launched publicly and then working from there. Yeah. I think the thing that stood out to me back then was just like how incredible the team was. Yeah. It was this insanely high aptitude team. It was probably the first time in my career I felt old. Yeah. And yet I felt like everyone around me was just like some of the most gifted people I had a chance to work with. And the thing that like really sold me on the company was just how much people were trying to lift each other up rather than compete with one another.

54:20I think, you know, when you have these really fast startups, everyone's ambitious, everyone's hungry. And that's great. But I think it's really important to remember that, you know, you're not trying to drive towards an end state. You're trying to build something that's lasting. Does that culture just come from like four years in the trenches, not being like, you know, being a quiet company and kind of building in like this monastery almost is like the vibe that I get from like the early days. And then you kind of carry that through as opposed to the first six months are insane. And then you're like ups and downs.

54:47Sarah Guo said that the company was leading up to the launch. The company was burning like$800 ,000 a month and didn't have a product really out in the wild. But I have to imagine you were using, were you guys, how early were you able to dog food the product and like build that conviction that, hey, we've actually built something really magical here. Yeah. So I started working with Figma about a month before the public launch. So there was a lot of work that had already been done. I think there was a time when people thought that, you know, everything just had to take six months. And if it took any longer, you know, it wasn't interesting.

55:15But, you know, hard things take time. And I think it's a testament to the culture of the company and to Dylan to really persevere and push through that time and bring something to the market that hadn't existed before. So were you brought in for specific WebGL experience or was WebGL at the focus of what you did or were there other challenges? Because the whole story gets kind of collapsed to like, oh, they just picked WebGL and that was the key innovation. But I'm sure there was a ton of other stuff going on. Yeah. Yeah. WebGL was, was the technology that enabled us to do graphics, like custom graphics in the browser and bypass some of the traditional browser graphics stack.

55:46Um, I think I was brought in cause at this really weird intersection of things that aligned with the company. So I used to work at a company called Asana and I built a lot of their real time kind of real time collaboration. That makes sense. Yeah. Um, which relates to the multiplayer stuff that we've been working on at Figma. And then, uh, funny enough, I had been taking a sabbatical. So the reason I got introduced to Figma is cause I was working on a side project. It was just a passion project. And in my case, it was writing a game engine to simulate surfing because I'm a surfer and I think I'm the only person stubborn enough to work on that long enough.

56:12Are you solving Navio strokes? Isn't that like the hardest problem? There was one browser surfing game that I used to play as a kid because I'm a surfer too. But it's funny you bring up Asana too because like as when I look back at like the real like start of my career, it was like I was quickly invited to Asana and I felt like such an adult. I was like, oh, look at me. I've got this very cutting edge project management tool. And then very quickly after that, I was invited to Figma. And then ever since then, I've used the product every single day. That's amazing. We're following the same path, it sounds like.

56:45That's great. That's great. So yeah, what else were the technical challenges going on to release? Yeah. I mean, first off, it's just not easy. I think a lot of people, when they first looked at Figma back then, they were thinking, oh, a design tool, a single-player tool. But under the hood, Figma is this real-time multiplayer engine. And it had to be multiplayer from day one. Yes, because I think the opportunity back then and the opportunity still today is not just to make a designer more efficient and more effective. It's also to bring the team closer together to enable the best ideas to surface to the front and to help them align and ship and execute those ideas.

57:15And I was saying to Andrew right before you jumped on, for me, Figma was a social product in the COVID times because I would jump on, I'd open my laptop, my son would go to bed, He was just like six months old or something like that. I'd open up Figma and I'd see a couple other people on the team, like in the main, like, you know, file that we had and I would just pop over their cursor and be like, you know, in the in the comments being like, hey, what's up? I didn't realize you were up. So yeah, it felt like a virtual office for the team at a time when there was like no, there was not much social activity at all.

57:50Totally. Yeah. I think it's really important to make work fun and to, you know, again, it comes back to lifting each other up. We're all trying to kind of surface ideas and put things out there. And it's a lot more fun when you get to do it with your team. One of my favorite memories from the pandemic was actually this time when Slack went down. So Slack went down as like the middle of it doesn't go down that much. But you remember when it goes down, you do remember when it goes down. We use it, too. We're big fans of Slack. But when it went down, we found out that a bunch of people were actually recreating the Slack UI inside of Figma and then using our multiplayer functionality to chat on the canvas.

58:20It's just a super cool. Oh, that's wild. Yeah, that's wild. Do you think that adding multiplayer features after launch would have been, if you play out like the counterfactual, would that have been much more technically challenging, you think? I think it's like there's something this special about day one, this is baked in. Yeah, I think there's two sides to this problem. So the first is just getting the base technology in place. That's one problem. The other thing is actually rethinking all of the product features so that they are actually eventually consistent and you're not stepping on each other's toes and dealing with conflicts.

58:50And so a big part of building collaborative multiplayer software is actually reasoning about how you design features. So they compose elegantly when multiple people are doing things at the same time. And that's very hard to bolt on later. The thing that makes it so powerful, in my own words, is if you have, no matter how talented an individual, like designer, engineer, product person, founder is, no matter how much of a visionary they are, no matter how capable they are. the whatever idea they initially have for something will be better once it has like the input of a group of people. And so the prehistoric era when design tools were built for designers and no one else would even have the file necessarily, it's just so wild to think back.

59:32Because I think every great feature I've ever made, every great ad I've ever made, every great website was always this combination of a bunch of smart people coming together and all contributing. And then Figma makes it so that it's as simple of like, even if you're not in the same room, right? Like I think about how much progress would have been lost if you didn't have something like Figma during COVID, where if you were used to as a team working and like all working on the same feature and being able to be there in person, it just made it so seamless to recreate that and actually build great things.

1:00:05Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. I think the other aspect of design that sometimes people mistake it for is they think it's just about building like a static mock, or a single image. And I think the reality is like the best design products, people sweat the details all the way to production. So you're not just thinking about, you know, how is it going to look in a few key states? You're thinking about how is that going to work? What's the system behind the design? You know, and how are you going to make it performant and efficient? And how are you going to learn from that and keep iterating? And so it's a really broad space and super excited to be playing in it.

1:00:31What was the lead up to config like? You guys came out the gates with what four major new product areas it felt like. And I remember Nyree gave me a little preview of what you guys were announcing. And I was like, really? Like four? Imagine it was pretty stressful for you, but you guys pulled it off. Yeah, no, the team pulled it off to their credit. It was incredible. Yeah, we went from like four to eight products all in one config, which is really cool. And it was even cooler because I was on parental leave for the first month before config. So I was just so stoked to come back from my short little parental leave and see that this team had just cranked everything out and done such an incredible job.

1:01:07Yeah. Talk to me about AI. Obviously, there are AI-enabled products, but then I imagine that AI is starting to infuse both in the internal workflows and also the sub-features within products that exist already. And I'm wondering how you think about organizational design, how you think about letting the existing team run with just adding on features and tools that leverage AI to setting up new teams. and do you need a crack team that goes around and AI-ifies everything? Or is this just another tool in the tool chest that everyone can be pulling from, regardless of where they sit in the org? Yeah, no, it's a good question.

1:01:47We've been kind of sweating that question ourselves. But I think it really comes back to what we've been doing all along for us. So at Figma, when we started, the goal was to make designers more efficient and give them superpowers, if you will, so they can do more and bring the best ideas to life. And then also to enable them to collaborate more seamlessly and effortlessly with their team and make that whole process more accessible to their team as well. And I think AI is just this incredible tailwind and accelerant to all of that right now. It's not hard to imagine the ways in which designers are using AI in the context of Figma, for example, with Figma Make, to not just build a prototype, but actually breathe life into that prototype with prototyping and ship it all the way to production.

1:02:24At the same time, all of these technologies are making the entire product suite that we have much more accessible to the people around them. And so people can come into Figma and they can prompt themselves, to get started, but then they still have the full power of the Figma ecosystem. So when the prompting is no longer the most efficient way, they can just grab the mouse and grab that color wheel and find that perfect red color rather than trying to describe it. Final touch. Yeah, the final touch. So yeah, it's super exciting. Yeah, last question. I think we have someone else coming on in a second.

1:02:52Talk about the engineering culture. Figma is so interesting because I think everyone, I don't want to generalize too much, but it feels like everyone has some design chops or at least taste or cares about design. But at the same time, you have those deep WebGL roots. It feels like there's some pretty serious hardcore technologists in the organization. What's the blend? What is that like when those two orgs come together? I imagine that you've spent a decade integrating those two disciplines. But culturally, what does it take to really succeed at the company? Yeah, I think it takes intellectual curiosity.

1:03:24That's what we seek out in our hires. We're trying to find people who are just as passionate as we are about making things better, which really serves our customers, too, because that's exactly what we're trying to help them. do. Yeah. You know, I think that we have like these incredible designers who also know how to code and we have these incredible systems architects who have really, really good product sense as well. And I think it's this like kind of role blending that we've embraced as a culture. And we're starting to see, you know, with AI breaking down some of the learning barriers between these functions, other companies embrace as well.

1:03:51Yep. Last question. Andrew Reed says that Evan Wallace had some crazy contributions to the code base early on. Any standout highlights? Yeah, Evan is just an incredibly gifted engineer. And the thing I remember is actually even before I joined Figma, when I was working on my own little game engine, I was reading these articles online about how to do constructive solid geometry and all these mathematical things. And I was reading these tutorials. And then when I started working with Evan at Figma, he's like, I went to his personal website and I realized the articles I was reading were written by him.

1:04:23He's a super gifted person. It's really, really an honor to have worked with him. That's fantastic. Congratulations. Congratulations to everyone. An incredible journey to date. and just getting started. Yeah, thank you so much. Thanks so much for hopping on the stream. Great meeting you both. We really appreciate it. Congratulations. See you soon. And we are ready for our next guest on this Figma stream. TBPN is live from the New York Stock Exchange. Welcome to the stream. How are you doing? Danny, pleasure to meet you. Nice to meet you. I've always heard great things. It's such a pleasure to meet you in person.

1:04:51Would you mind just doing a quick introduction for the folks who might not be familiar? Yeah, so I'm Danny Reimer. I'm with Index Ventures. And we're a firm that's based in London, in San Francisco and New York. We are investing early in growth stage. And we invested in Figma. We led the seed round in Figma. So met Dylan when he was 18 for the first time, which is pretty amazing. I'm now going down a melancholy hill, as I'm Nostalgia Hill, as I'm hearing this. I have to ask right away, how did you react early on to their kind of launch timeline, right? Like the thing that keeps coming up today, and we talked with Andrew Reid about this earlier, personally as an angel, if somebody tells me they're building a software company for other businesses and they say that we're going to launch in two years, I almost immediately think like, okay, this person probably needs to like update their thinking.

1:05:48But, and I think people generally use a Figma example of like this fat MVP and it can be a trap because you can work on something for a long time and have it not really be that valuable. But I wonder what your immediate reaction was, given that this was well before the launch. Yeah, I mean, believe it or not, it's sort of in line with our contrarian approach. Like we're contrarian on a bunch of stuff. We've been really bearish on crypto. We didn't do any crypto investments. So for us, it was a feature, not a bug, that it was going to take that long. So we've been contrarian about being loud too on Figma.

1:06:23A lot of people, I think they saw like, you know, Index's ownership at the IPO and didn't, you know, you guys haven't been posting threads every single day. It's about the team. But that's part of the culture. It's about the team. I mean, you're bearish on crypto. How'd you react to Dylan's NFT profile picture? I think it's a god. It makes sense. He's got the past for this. It doesn't mean that he can't be. Yeah, but he's focused. But, you know, really at the time, you know, all of the technology, all the software was sort of like in that meta spirit, that Facebook spirit of like throw it against a wall, you know, ship quickly.

1:06:59Doesn't matter if it's broken, break it, break it, break things, build, break things. And this was so contrary. It's like the two guys were contrarian and they were committed to actually developing things for two years before we were going to have any sense as to whether it was going to be good or not. And it really had to compete against Sketch was the primary competitor. And Sketch was a damn good product. People love the product. Exactly. Exactly. Which is like the hard, you know, even, you know, most investors, if they're looking at a new investment in a category with a very well-loved product that has massive saturation.

1:07:33I mean, I don't, I think it would be hard to find a product designer in San Francisco pre-Figma that wasn't using Sketch. Yeah. You're absolutely right. Do you remember what the other comps were from that era of companies that had figured out how to do something utilitarian, but then bolted on a multiplayer aspect? We were kind of kicking around the obvious example of like Instagram. There were a few other photo filtering apps, but Instagram started with the social network out of the box, kind of bootstrapped it in the background and wound up being a very successful product, obviously. But were there other companies that were coming to mind at that time?

1:08:04So we're big game investors. Okay. Right. So first of all, multiplayer was a term that we were very familiar with. Sure, sure. And then we were Dropbox investors. That makes sense. So like the notion of sort of the product, the consumerization of the enterprise starting small, growing through, you know, guerrilla tactics and just mainstream adoption within the organization, we felt really comfortable with. Sure, sure. Is that broadly product-led growth or is product-led growth in your mind a broader term? No, it is PLG. Just PLG. Absolutely. And it was clear back to the, I totally agree with you.

1:08:41The lion's share of folks were using Dropbox and Sketch. And so for us, we knew what the problem was. Like the first time I met Dylan was at Flipboard when he was 18. And they had amazing designers at Flipboard. And I just remember the confusion. Yeah, beautiful product. And also, I don't know if it was WebGL, but the 3D animation of the page flipping. Yeah, absolutely. And you can see that that comes through with like, okay, just the technical challenge of like, how would I implement that? I remember playing with it on the iPad and being like, okay, this is a different thing. This is hand-coded.

1:09:13I mean, they launched it before the iPad was launched. Yeah, yeah, that's right. But the versioning headaches that they were getting through, like, you know, they had all these amazing designers. One ended up leading design at Uber, another one, and is one of the senior designers at Apple for like eight years. and the design problems that they would get into of like sending the wrong version, sending the wrong asset, you know, through Dropbox, it was clear that you needed a better solution. Yeah. What are you seeing broadly in terms of artificial intelligence as a sustaining or disruptive innovation to companies that have established a market?

1:09:49And then there's a whole bunch of companies that are coming in and saying like, we're going to be the AI version of that. It feels like in some ways you could say, oh, well, that's just like the multiplayer version. But in some ways, it's more of a sustaining innovation. What's your broad take? I would say the latter. Sustaining innovation. I mean, I'm super bullish about AI. I mean, sure. It's hard not to be, right? Yeah, but you probably have to qualify that. Like, bullish on AI doesn't necessarily mean you're upset about what's happening at the Foundation Model Labs or in terms of CapEx or NVIDIA.

1:10:16There's a million different places. But you're broadly bullish? You know, our job is to see a trend and then to analyze a trend and then to go pretty deep. Okay, yeah. And we are very bullish on AI. Very bullish. Well, it seems like every other time I see a billion-dollar M &A headline, it's another index always ends up with the most. Thank you. The thing that strikes me about Figma that I think is still powerful to this day is simultaneously the complexity of the product and the simplicity of the product. If you get invited to Figma and you've never used the product before, you just get dropped in to the canvas.

1:10:51You're there. You can see the other people. and despite all that you can do with the product, it's still, I just found it somehow intuitive, even for somebody. And I think that's very, very difficult. Yeah, and the co-founder, Dylan was brilliant enough to hire as co-founder the best computer scientist he had ever met, who was his TA at Brown, convinced him to stop doing a PhD and to code. Wow. That guy had such an understanding of that. Yeah. Or it still does. Evan still has a such a clear understanding of how to create the lowest common denominator and make it inclusive with everyone. While also because it's design and design is going to become central to everything, have enough sophistication so that you can differentiate from anyone else.

1:11:42Yeah. No, it's really it's really amazing to me. The magic of Figma and the thing that I from the very first Figma that I was invited to. And that was obviously why the growth was so insane early is it's like natural product led growth versus forced product led growth. Yeah. Was this, you know, as a user, if you can if the thing that you provide a customer or user is the ability to take the thing that's in their mind and make it real so they can see it. That's like the most magic thing ever. And the other thing I would comp kind of this moment to is, you know, we cover Alphabet and Google a lot.

1:12:19And we talk about how Google's initial mission to like organize the world's information and, you know, make it useful. I forget exactly how they position it and how that's so aligned to Gen. AI in the sense that a lot of what LMS do today is just make organizing information for you and making it useful. Right. That's like the core of the value. and it feels like Figma of this core of like taking a spark of an idea and making it into a thing is so aligned with generative AI because it's like oh you want to make a website like describe it you want to make an app describe it you want to change the details you want to change this color you want to you want to build like an entire you know app underneath the website it's just all there and reducing that time from spark of an idea to like real product that's right just And I think it is a really important component of making sure that the human intervention is critical for differentiation.

1:13:13You need that. The idea has to first manifest, but you can do that with AI tools. But then it has to have a human differentiation, like a human intervention that makes it way better to use than anything else. This is the same way that making things in an organization work. You might have the smartest person on a team have an amazing idea and get it get it here. And then and then the intern might throw in, hey, by the way, what if we did it like this? And everybody's like, oh, that's a good idea. Yeah. And even with like super intelligence or whatever we're hurling towards, it's like, you know, you can you might be able to create a V1.

1:13:47But it's it's this combination of ideas and experiences that makes it truly special. Last question. Give me the update on Index. It's a huge fund growing. What's the contrarian strategy? We're hearing rumors. Are we going to see you out there soon? Are you going to see public funds? I guess our contrarian element has been not to grow enormously. So, you know, we've had a billion dollar venture fund and two billion dollar growth fund for a decade now and we haven't expanded our size. So like the idea is that from our perspective, investing is a craft. And if we get bigger, we might lose the focus and we're not going to be able to have the same relationship with the founders that we adore having.

1:14:30So we just have to generate the returns. So that's what we're focused on, like keeping it small and hopefully, I mean, I have some amazing partners who... How big is the team now? We're seven investing partners. Seven partners. Yeah. And what's cool is that Shardul is behind Wiz for us. and we have Dream Games and we have Service Titan Do you see it as a mentorship business? Oh yeah That's what excites us is that the next generation are better than the current generation That's great Well thank you so much for coming Thank you We'd love to have you back on the show and we will bring in our next guest Jordy do you have any updates from the timeline?

1:15:21What else is going on? We have Mamoun. Hello, welcome to the stream. Thank you so much. I like that pin. That pin is fantastic. We've been excited to have you on the show. I'm so fired up to be here. It's so fun. Perfect timing. Give us a little introduction on yourself and what you do. All right. Well, I'm a partner at Kleiner Perkins, early stage venture capitalist. Kleiner Perkins, the firm, has been around for 50 plus years in amazing companies like Google and Amazon and Netscape and Figma, of course. And yeah, we invest in early stage companies, but we also have a growth fund that invests in some pretty cool later stage opportunities as well.

1:15:58What is the story of meeting Dylan and Figma? When did that come together? Yeah, I think I met him. You guys did the B, right? We did the B, yeah. And that was in 2017. Yeah. I met Dylan probably in 2017, early in 17. I was on a board with John Lilly, who led the Series A. Oh, yeah. We read his blog post today. And John and I were involved with a company that didn't really work out. Okay. And he told me at the time, hey, this thing may not work out. So I owe you one. I'm going to introduce you to this guy. Okay. Dylan. Yeah. And you're going to love him. And by the way, like your background in Box and Yammer and Slack really could help.

1:16:37Yeah. And so spend time together, get to know each other, which we did over a bunch of months. And we really hit it off. And later that year, Dylan decided to raise a Series B. And this is around the time when the product had just come out of beta. And you could hear people talking about Figma. And the company had been around for five years. So this is a long windup. Yep, totally. And it was coming out of beta, just started to monetize a few customers. And you'd walk around actually South Park where we were based and you see people in coffee shops, the designer types using Figma. Just like three, four, five years prior, you'd see Slack on people's screens.

1:17:18And so, okay, there's something going on. And then when I saw my friend Josh Williams, who's a designer, incredible designer, it's like, oh, Josh is using it. That means that the designer community has really latched on to Figma. Yeah. And so took a few tidbits data points and and then I remember asking Dylan, like, show me this one chart. All you need to see is one chart. It's called the L28. Yeah. It's the usage for the whole user base over a 28 day period of time. It's a histogram. It's kind of nerdy. But Dylan, just go look at this data and tell me what it looks like. So he sent it over, and it had this little smile, which effectively shows that at day 14, 15, 16 out of 28 days, many of the users were using it for every day of the work week, which meant that effectively, if you're a designer, you are using Figma to get your work done.

1:18:10And there's just no question about it. By the way, I'm a non-designer, and I kind of came online in the work world startup game in 2017, and I was very quickly at DAU. Like I use it all the time as somebody that didn't consider myself a designer. I was just invited to Figma. And I was like, wait, this is a pretty good way to just do a lot of different types of work, whether you're making a deck or marketing assets or a website or anything. Totally. And you saw that, I think the first board deck I think I ever got was actually in Figma. And Figma Slides wasn't a product that we just launched actually.

1:18:45So, yeah, you saw this incredible depth of engagement with the product that I'd seen with products like Slack. And obviously, like Slack, we all use and we love. Some hate, but mostly love, right? And you saw that early. Regardless how people feel about it, they still use it. So, yeah. L28, that's effectively like a churn analysis, but short term? Usage over the first 28 days. Because you should see some trial to conversion. Usage over a 28-day period. It's actually just say take any user like the whole user base. Okay. Like let's say a thousand users. Okay. So random slice. They could have been installed months ago.

1:19:22Yeah. But you want to see how they use it. Every person who signed up, let's say a thousand users. Yep. And did they use it for that once a month, twice a month, three times a month or 28 days out of the month. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And only consumer companies typically look at that. So to see that sort of behavior out of an enterprise software product was incredible. Yeah. One of the analysis I saw was rule of 40. People were talking about how Figma is in a great position right now. Great margins, but also great growth rate. Add that together. That's the rule of 40.

1:19:57When did the rule of 40 come into your world? What did it factor into the series B or was it something you started tracking later? What can you tell me? Just the cafe analysis. Yeah. I think real later, actually funny enough, I think about 10 years ago, I came up with this thing called a quick ratio. Okay. Which was more interesting to me because for early stage companies, it showed a quick ratio is effectively in a given month. How many users did you add? Yep. And how many users did you churn? Okay. So let's say you added 400 users. Yep. And you churned 100. Yep. Your quick ratio is four. Yep.

1:20:33And that was actually like a good number. Sure. But if you're adding 200 and losing 150, not good. That's a leaky bucket. It's a leaky bucket. So for an early stage person, the quick ratio was just way better than looking at growth rate and then looking at the net income. Martins, which could be all over the place based on what they did that month or that quarter. Makes sense. One question I have, I'm curious how you see it. So it was Index, Greylock, KP, Sequoia, A16Z were the leads. if this company, if Figma had been started in 2020, do you think there would have been one or two funds just like going back and forth?

1:21:08Was it, you know, I feel like today you'll see these like fast follow rounds. Concentration seems to be a real focus for a lot of funds. And was that something you think that like Dylan was just pushing for, wanted a diverse board or was it more just the state of venture at that time? I think Dylan is just very nuanced and detail-oriented and very methodical. And every round he had in his mind, who was the investor, the right investor for me at this point in time, which is how I think he even sought out our relationship where John, Lily, and Dylan was telling me downstairs, you know, we sought you out for that Series B.

1:21:51It was like a beeline. And I think Dylan had that same sentiment towards the Series C with Andrew Reed, who was just on, right? And then even the round thereafter. So he was always in his mind hat is, this is the person, the firm that I really want to work with based on their skill set, their capabilities. And he went after it and he got it every single time. How do you think the board evolved? It seems like there's a lot of different investors, different firms joining. How do you think the board will evolve going forward? And it already has evolved. Can you talk to some of the additions and what the rationale was behind those?

1:22:29Yeah. So just in the last month, we've added three incredible people. Bill McDermott. OG, right? Like OG. You have to have Bill on the show if you haven't. Oh, no, we'd love to. Oh, my God. Bill is the man. I mean, obviously, he runs ServiceNow. Before that, he ran SAP. So he's just the CEO of all, like the GOAT, in terms of like running an enterprise software business. Yep. And we added Mike Krieger, founder of Instagram. Come on guys. And a very interesting, people wouldn't think about it, but they're design focused. Yeah. Anthropic too. Anthropic now, the chief product officer at Anthropic.

1:23:05He was downstairs. And then we added Louis Van Onn, I think is from Duolingo. Amazing. And he's a founder, a CEO, went early in on AI and running a public company. also a KP company. So just like three folks who bring different skill sets but are just like A plus, top notch. And I think that's sort of how Dylan has really built the company from setting the tone, the culture amongst the team, his executive team, the board. And you couldn't be more proud of what's been built there. It's fantastic. When did, last question, then I'm sure you have a busy evening. One, when did the kind of Gen.ai opportunity click with you and Figma?

1:23:50Was it instantly, was there a specific moment that you realized what an opportunity Figma would have in terms of if you're already helping people turn ideas into real things and products? Gen.ai has an obvious, you know, immediate application there. Yeah, I think there's more the features that allow you to do things with AI inside of the canvas of Figma. Yeah. And then there's the what can you do from prompting to code to design. And I think there's both elements of AI to integrate into the Figma product, which we've done. But I think Dylan just being such a, so early on technology, but also timing it really right as well, was early, but more recently, as you know, we've launched four products, and one product is very heavy on AI, the Figma Make product.

1:24:37Which goes from prompt to code. So really just timing matters, and I think Dylan and the team are all over it, and you just had Chris on. And you have millions and millions of DAUs, weekly active users that are ready saying, please give us more. We're ready. Yeah, that's great. Well, thank you so much. Thank you, guys. I'm a fan of the show. Thank you so much. I'll be back on sometime soon. Fantastic. And I think we're going to hop on with Dylan right now. Welcome to the stream. Here we go. Looking incredibly sharp. Thanks so much. Fantastic looking suit. Great. What do you have there? Do you have a gaffle?

1:25:11Purple is such a nice touch. We're going to ask you to hold this. How many times did you ring the bell today? You rang the opening bell. Walk me through your day. What did you actually do today? Have you gotten any sleep? Are you okay? Your day also started. I don't know. Is that how bad I look? No, no, no. I just know the schedule is brutal. You know, it's been an intense schedule, but it was a great day. Amazing. And the team was incredible. And, yeah, in terms of the gavel, I mean, I just feel like holding this thing, you can do anything. You can do anything. It's a powerful gavel. I feel like it's time to make a bunch of product decisions.

1:25:47Not sure on what yet. The gavel will symbolize. You also shipped a bunch of products updates today too. What were the highlights? A lot of highlights. The things that I was super excited about, one was Offset Vector. Because we've been getting requests from that from the start of Figma. And then also for DevMode MCP, we made a bunch of improvements. It's interesting with DevMode MCP. I mean, this is one where the team was like, yeah, I think it's time to release it. And, you know, we kind of did the walkthrough. This is for MCP servers for AI agents, essentially. Yeah, basically it lets you translate, you know, designs to code and pull that in via MCP.

1:26:24And kind of an extension of our dev mode functionality. And I was nervous because I just felt like we have so much to build out still, and we do. But it's been great to see the reception. The reception has been really positive. And then today we made some more improvements to it. But this is just the start. there's a lot more coming on DevMode. Yeah, we were talking about this earlier, kind of making the argument, I think we both agreed that Figma fits the traditional definition of like a platform that was designed, I think defined by Microsoft. This idea that the value that's created on top of the product is greater than the product, the value that the product captures.

1:26:58But how do you think that's going to change or what is the shape of it right now? I know that there are, we have friends who run agencies that probably wouldn't exist if Figma did not exist. I'm sure they would find a way, but they have built a whole company and business around it. And they're obviously incredibly synergistic with you. How's that evolving? Every single thing that I've done in my career. Yeah, arguably Jordy's career is... I don't think I've ever closed even Figma. I always love using it in the browser. It's just as good. I don't think I've ever closed... You have the tab open.

1:27:26Figma has just been like 99.9 % in my... Yeah, it's your operating system. Yeah. It's your operating system. Yeah, I love hearing that, obviously. But also, I mean, it's folks like you who are in the product so much every day that give us the best feedback and we learn from it. And the thing about designers is they are so thoughtful with their feedback. Yeah. And they really helped steer us and really orient us towards the right things to build. And then, you know, of course, you got to also take some bets where everyone's saying one thing and you're going to do another thing, but, or things that, you know, people aren't thinking about yet.

1:28:02Yeah. And so we try to do a mix. Yeah. But it's the feedback from designers, I think is consistently just like probably some of the best feedback in the world. I saw it at Config. It was crazy. Standing room only and standing ovations. It's like Woodstock. It was crazy. I want to talk about organizational design in the age of AI. How is the org structure changing, if any at all? I imagine that you have your own team of designers and then developers and front end and back end down to hardcore WebGL folks, right? and there's some sort of different tiers and different groups and product groups, but how does AI fit in?

1:28:40How does it change it? Obviously, with Figma Make, it's kind of its own product team, but then I imagine that there are folks using AI all over the organization. So how do you think about AI playing a role either as a vertical product focus or horizontal slice or support teams? How are you tussling with that? I think it's got to be kind of many things at once. so uh one dynamic that's always interesting is uh you have to motivate research by having uh you know great product applications but also you know if you don't have the research done sometimes people go i can't build the product application part yet and i think you just have to break that chicken and egg sure you have to um you know motivate by showing here's what's possible and then you have to also try to break through and find new ways to do research so that you're able to inspire people on the product side.

1:29:32And it's just a virtuous loop if you can get it right. But the thing I'd say more broadly on organizations beyond even just Figma is, you know, the core thesis of Figma is like over the last decade, we've had this point of view that as the inputs to software change. As more people are creating software, there's just an exponentially more amount of software in the world, then design, craft, point of view, that's the differentiator. And I think that there's a really interesting dynamic that we're observing. You know, it was like two decades ago, design was lipstick on a pig. You know, make it pretty.

1:30:11And maybe a decade ago, the conversation shifted to, okay, design's how it works. You gotta really think about design through a whole process. and designers were like, yeah, we've always been saying this, but finally everyone else kind of got it. And then now I think it's literally it's how you win or lose. And I think there's, if you look at some of the companies that are doing the best, they, you know, some, many of which have been on your show. I'm intimately familiar. It is my number one complaint between many of the modern products. I wind up making a decision not on the foundational technology, but instead on the user experience, the UI, which feels crazy in the age of benchmarks and like something that's so quantifiable.

1:30:51And yet I find myself making decisions based on the unquantifiable. John Lilly had a post earlier congratulating you and the team. He said in a 2003 interview about the iPod, Steve Jobs famously said, design is not just what it looks like and feels like, design is how it works. He said that you just built like around this like core idea. Absolutely. But I think it's evolving. I think it's now how you win. And the companies that are understanding that, I think are just, we're seeing them outperform. And the ones that are sort of like catching up, they're investing a lot in design. And not just in the design team, in how to get everyone in the organization to be part of the design process.

1:31:33And I think this is really interesting for the designer's role because designers are the ones who are then going to have to lead the charge. That's going to be a lot of power. And we're going to start seeing so many more designer CEOs. Yeah, so many more design oriented folks who are you know leading and shaping directions of the future of Software and of companies more broadly because every company is becoming a software company now. Yeah, and I just think that It's gonna be quite a shift. I I suspect We're already seeing this a little bit, but you know, maybe not at the level of magnitude of you know, Zach throwing and these offers at researchers.

1:32:11But I think there's a parallel at a different scale on design. I think that the design talent wars are heating up and people are realizing that they have to get ahead. Yeah, really, I mean, the clearest example here is despite how far Gen.AI has come and how many new capabilities there are, incredible designers are more in demand than ever. It's like you just get hit up all the time. And I think if there's a few people in my Rolodex I said, I'm like, these people are truly incredible, but good luck recruiting them because they have 50 other offers and infinite optionality. Talk to me about research.

1:32:48You mentioned doing research in the context of Figma. And I'm interested to know. And this dates back to Evan's work. I was thinking about the WebGL example. I was thinking about watching GPT-3 come out, GPT-4, and kind of understanding capabilities research. like walk me through the understanding of like, how do you think about design translating to tokens and then AI, like how do you even test all these new functionalities? Like you can operate on pixels, diffusion models or tokens and HTML. There's so many different angles. Like what does research actually look like in the Figma context? Yeah, without sharing too much.

1:33:25I think one of the high level framing might be, you know, diffusion models are excellent. And just like if you look at sort of some of the things that we've seen with Diffusion, the results over time, I mean, it's really felt like more of an exponential. Obviously, with LMs, whether it be language or toy problems and code and math, that feels like an exponential. Yeah. I think that neither is quite the approach for design just yet. I mean, obviously with LLMs, we use models to generate outputs in Make. And Figment Make, we're super excited about it. I think it's the ideal case because you go from zero to one.

1:34:10But we are still in a world where there are constraints. And to actually get to the point where you're differentiating the output, where you're adding that craft, that point of view, the financial models don't get you there. And even if they were to be able to increase quality of visual output, I think it actually only makes design more powerful. Because if you had five different designers in this room who are experts of their craft, and they're all looking at some wonderfully generated design that was actually very good, which is not maybe where we're at yet. They probably have five different points of view.

1:34:50And if that's how you're going to stand out is your design craft, your brand, your marketing. Yeah. I think it requires intentionality and systems thinking, not just in the design and software context, but even beyond cultural business constraints. And so, you know, we have in the front of the New York Stock Exchange today the sign design is everyone's business. Yep. It's so true. Design went public. It also does seem particularly like reinforcement learning resistant because there's no like taste benchmark yet. Non-deterministic. It's non-deterministic, yeah. How did you think about adding to your board, heading into the IPO and beyond?

1:35:24Every single investor that led various rounds from Andrew to Danny to Mamoun talked about your thoughtfulness around choosing the right partners at each stage. And I know you added Mike Krieger and Bill, and I'd love to. And Louise, too. Yeah. And, yeah, we're super fortunate to have just the most incredible board. We also have two other independents. Lynn she's the former CMO of Salesforce and on some other incredible boards to Kelly Kelly was the former CFO at Cisco oh wow and they are just powerhouses they're amazing and yeah I'm just my mindset whether it be on the VC side independent side although I think as of right now everyone's now an independent technically.

1:36:13As of a few hours ago. Yeah, a few hours ago with the gavel. But yeah, I think that you're looking for folks that you can learn from. Folks that you love spending time with because the perfect board relationship is one where you're going to be calling them up with questions and you're going to really enjoy spending the time and working through with them. I don't think they have to be folks. You don't have to find board members who are universally great at everything. that's a high ask but when you can find people that spike in certain areas uh and then you know what to call them for that is awesome and so i think we have a very great group on the board also in our exec team uh where we just on all these different levels of the company have folks that really spike in different areas and then coming together they uh really have they can really help everyone in the group get to the right decision yeah do you think your team pushed nicely to the limit.

1:37:12You can't walk anywhere in the building without seeing like either the most iconic merch on the back of somebody down on the trading floor or, you know, this like meticulously designed sign pointing you to like a storage closet or something like that. You know, I had some early previews, but it's nothing like walking around for real. I mean, this was incredible to see. It was probably the best this place has ever looked. I haven't been here before. First time. So I can't comment on that, but I thought today looked exceptional. They were great to work with. It was great. Talk about the evolution of the company culture over just the entire journey.

1:37:49I mean, I have to imagine that just the vibe changed from being pre-release for four years and then growing on this kind of steady trajectory where it was obviously tier one after tier one coming in, but never felt like super overhyped and never saw you on like the deified podcast circuit, if you know what I'm talking about. I think we're doing that right now. Well, you and Evan both kept a lower profile than other companies with your financial and performance and growth. Yeah. So where do you see the company culture going from here on out? Is anything changing or do you think there's an evolution or shift?

1:38:36Yeah, I mean, I think you look at the folks that come to Figma. Yeah. We sort of shine this bat signal in the sky through our product. And the folks that want to come work at Figma, a lot of them are people that use Figma. Yeah, of course. It's a very creative team. We're very oriented towards craft. We, I think, as a group, are very first principles oriented. We're in the weeds, but we can talk about strategy. People need to be able to go across all those different levels. And I think very growth mindset, very humble, very kind. And I just think we're builders. And I would imagine that in the future that will all be the same.

1:39:19I don't see why that would change. The things that I think about a lot right now are just clarity. I think that in order to, this is true for I think a lot of organizations, just the more clarity you can create for your team, both top-down but also noticing and creating processes for stuff to bubble up from everyone in the organization and then have it meet in the middle and quickly have a great cycle time where you're able to figure out, okay, what is the right decision here and progress? That's what will make it so that you're able to adapt rapidly in an era where everyone has to adapt rapidly right now.

1:39:59Things are changing that fast. how did the product demo go the other day? The investment bangers, are they converts now? You know, I did have one investor come up to me to the roadshow and say that they wanted to be a designer now. So I don't know if they actually quit their job and started on a pass. It's never too late. That's what I told them. I was like, you can be. It's okay. We didn't have time to go deep on it, but I was excited to hear that. I had never taken a design class. I'd never considered myself a designer. I knew I was creative. And I did have this moment in 2021 when I was like, wait, am I a designer?

1:40:42I use Figma a lot. I make a lot of designs. And it was this realization that it was the reason a lot of what all the people involved here are talking about today is everybody can be a designer. everybody can create things, make things. And it was true from the very first moment that I used the product. And just balancing that, you talked about having team members that have that range to be able to talk about strategy and then get in the weeds. And Figma, the product, what makes it so incredible is the range where you get invited to a file, you just land in it, you're there, you can see your buddies there in the same file, all together with your cursors.

1:41:20But then as you understand the product more there's no i don't think i certainly haven't hit the limit of what the product's capable and i don't know that maybe anyone has so yeah i mean i think it's it's there's this tension always of you got to make things both approachable uh and you know you also have to cater to the most power user functionality and for folks that are real power users of the product how do you make sure that um you do both and i think that um that's always a balance we're trying of strike one thing that helps though is pulling out new areas use cases into their own products that lets them breathe but also makes us that figma design can be focused on product design so for example fig jam was the first one we did it for and we're like yeah I noticed for a long time okay people are doing brainstorming whiteboarding I would make the janky whiteboard diagrams and like I would pre-design graphics and then I would like make them look nice and then you had to like copy and paste them all in this like weird way and then you guys made fig jam.

1:42:19I was like, okay, cool. That's, I was like making this myself in the product for years. We saw that with many people and then, uh, by taking it and bringing it to his own space. The other thing that we thought about was during pandemic times, especially people were treating figma design like a space to hang out in. This is what I told Chris watching the stream. No. Yeah. Yeah. I told six different people. I told this to Chris, I figma during the pandemic era was like a virtual office where I would open. I'd open my computer after my son would go to bed. It'd be late at night. I'd pop it open. Figma would be open.

1:42:54I'd see Brandon in there. I'd see his little cursor. I'd go over and put a comment. Hey, what's up? How you doing? I would mess with him. I'd change the button colors on him. I'd move stuff around, you know, but it was just like, it felt like a virtual office. I ultimately didn't adopt any other virtual office tools. Cause I was like, well, I kind of, I think at one point we even designed a, like an office in Figma that everybody would jump in. you can move your character around a little bit. Yeah, exactly. That's so funny. I mean, that was part of the insight for how we differentiated FigJam.

1:43:22You know, I told the team, you know, maybe a month before launch, hey, like our differentiator for FigJam is going to be fun. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember having a board call and I told, you know, the team this and everyone looks at me like, oh, man, you've been sheltering in place way too much, buddy. Yeah. Because that was, I mean, there was a bunch of companies that were dedicated to whiteboarding and I don't even, I haven't heard about them in a while, but it wasn't like a category you just waltz into you know well and to team's credit I mean I said this and first there's skepticism and then people are like okay let's do it we did a one-day design sprint camp with like 30 ideas or something like that I think four or five of them shipped including many of the features that are like the hallmark features of FigJam and stuff that's really gone very broad and like cursor chat for example yeah where we see that pattern replicated in other surfaces now.

1:44:12And that all came out of one day. So just like when you've got this amazing creative team, make it so that you're able to unblock them and just let them go. And if you just point them in a direction, it can be incredible what you find. Yeah. We have to let you go. I want to... Thank you for having me very much. I want to talk about everything from quantum computing to Dyson Spheres, but that will be for the next one. Next time. We would love for you to hit the gong with this mallet if you would do us the honor. I don't know. We might want to use the regular mallet. I want to keep the precious gong safe.

1:44:46I guess we'll use this for the really serious stuff. Yeah. There's a mallet right there. Okay. Oh, there we go. There we go. Iconic moment. All right. Have a good night, everybody, and thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. It's so great to be here.

1:45:02You're a legend. Congratulations. You guys rock. Incredible leader.

1:45:15We're still taping. Yeah.

1:45:21You're the man.

1:45:25And we will bring in our next guest. Who we got? Who do we have? I think we have Lynn from Nicey. Do we have our next guest available? Perfect. Thank you. We will bring them here. Here she comes. Is the market still open? I don't know. Another 40 minutes or so. Okay. I'm usually on West Coast time. Hi, welcome. Nice to meet you. You are live on the air. It's so great to be here. What a day. What a day. We picked the right one. I haven't been to the New York. My mom knew that I was coming to the New York Stock Exchange and sent me a picture of me here when I was 10 years old and I got a booklet, a pamphlet, and then I came in college once for kind of an entrepreneur networking event.

1:46:07I haven't been back since, but I picked the right day. It's been fantastic. It's been a great day here. Can you introduce yourself on the stream? Yeah, introduce yourself and then there's so much we want to talk about. I'm Lynn Martin. I'm president of the New York Stock Exchange. There you go. It's a great honor. Fantastic. And I'm thrilled to be on this podcast. I listen to you guys. Thank you. Thank you. Incredible. This is a big moment for us. I mean, we just started a couple of months ago. This has definitely been on the vision board of one day. And now we're here. So thank you so much for hosting us.

1:46:32Totally surreal. First question I have to ask, because it feels like Figma pushed the limits in terms of making this space feel like the Figma brand. Did they give you any trouble around the details of design? I love a good takeover. Okay, that's great. And this space is really to celebrate. Capital markets are to celebrate our issuers. And today with the full brand takeover by Figma, it's been amazing. That's fantastic. Well, walk us through what else has gone this year. We've been talking about this dynamic that people were kind of like, is the IPO window open? And then all of a sudden we'd looked around and it was like, oh, it's wide open.

1:47:10There's been a ton of exciting news. But what have been the standout moments this year in your world? Yeah, I mean, the market very much is now open. I don't think anyone is debating that after today. I agree. You know, we've had a lot of great companies come to market. On the tech side, we've had just in the last couple of weeks, we had Accelerant. We had Ambic Micro go yesterday. Obviously, Figma today. We had Circle. Circle. Fantastic. A couple months ago. That was another great one. Nielsen IQ last week. McGraw-Hill. Hinge Health. Hinge Health. Mountain. So there's been quite a fair amount of deals.

1:47:46They've done well. Yes. They've done well. They've helped. Broadly, tech IPOs have done very well this year. Yeah. And when I'm with institutional investors, the thing that I keep hearing from them, these are, you know, the big long only funds is we want more issues to come to market. We want to add to our portfolio. When's the market going to open? When's the market going to open? So there's a lot of excitement, euphoria to actually get these companies out and a lot of demand, which I think is great. What are the key goals, the key value props, the key action items that you bring to bear in your day-to-day, in your role?

1:48:25You know, one of my big focuses, probably my primary focus, is to scoot more. All right. We're cozy in this studio. Is really to ensure that our capital markets remain the envy of the world. For me, it's about price certainty and efficiency of risk management. How do you increase those? have to have good technology. Now I'm a technologist by trade. Yeah, I was going to ask what the path is to becoming the president of the New York Stock Exchange. Of course, in this day and age, you start as a coder. That's how I started. No way, no way. That's amazing. Where did you write code first? I was at IBM.

1:49:03There you go. It's part of their global services consulting practice, and my clients were financial institutions. That makes sense. Incredible. What programming language did you write back then? You know, you're asking me to date myself. We don't need to do that. I'm going to, you know, I'll say C. Okay. C was the main one that I used. C++ a little bit. Yeah. That's great. But, you know, I'm not going to go further back with the other stuff I did. Can you walk us through, like, a day in the life of a CEO going public? I didn't want to pull it out of Dylan, but it's like there's the bell ringing and then the stock starts trading.

1:49:38Just how calm and collected Dylan was and just so focused on product, team, culture. Totally. Vision. But isn't that Dylan? Yeah, that's Dylan. Through and through. He doesn't have to play a character on a day like today. It's just another day. Totally. But yes, walk me through a day in the life of a CEO taking a company public at the New York Stock Exchange. Well, you probably have gone through about a 10-day period where you've been on the road and you're probably a little tired. Does that mean literally on the road? When people say roadshow, does that just mean like one big conference room where everyone comes to you?

1:50:09Or are you literally flying around to different long-only funds? It's a mix. Some of the big long-onlys, you will go see them in person. You know, Boston-based. Yes. Like a State Street or something. Yeah, or more the Fidelity. Okay, yeah, I remember Wellington. You'll probably go see T-Row in person. Sure, okay. You know, you're going to see some of the big names, the ones that are generally the top holders of equities. You're going to probably also go see Vanguard and BlackRock and all those folks. And some of those are in Manhattan, so it might be a stop here. But you're going around, and you really are on the road.

1:50:38You are on the road. You are on the road. So 10 days of that. Yeah. Then the big day comes. This is calendar days. I'm going. Not business days. So it's more like five or six. Week and a half. And then, by the way, you've already done testing the water. So you've already met these people in the past. And then the night before, you price. Your deal gets priced. And then the morning of, you... And how does that happen? Is that just everyone putting in different bids, testing the water? Is there an automated system? Or is this piece happening more over conference calls and discussions? Walk me through that piece.

1:51:17It's probably a better question for the banking syndicate that's doing it. Yeah, it kind of depends on who's doing it. I think it's probably a bit of everything at the moment, a bit of technology, also some phone calls. Sure, sure, sure. They set the price where they think the supply that is coming to the market should price. Yep. And then you go to sleep. Yep. Wake up right and early. And then the next morning you wake up and, of course, you ring the bell. You ring the bell. At the New York Stock Exchange. Yeah. And then you have a couple hour period where you're doing media interviews. Yes, of course.

1:51:46Talking about your company while your stabilization agents trying to figure out where the stocks should open. Will actually trade. Yeah, will open. Where should it open? Okay. There's obviously, you know, a lot of supply on some of these. Or not a lot of supply, a lot of demand. A lot of demand on this one in particular. because we've been hearing maybe, you know, we were hearing like rounds of cheers around noon and then one, and then it seemed like this particular stock opened at two, kind of around there. And that was all just based on matching the buyers and sellers. What have you done as president of the exchange to attract the circles and the hinge healths and the Figma's, right?

1:52:24These are the blockbuster IPOs of the year. There's obviously other players. We had it last year. Yeah, there's obviously other companies I won't name that would like to have those opportunities. But what makes NYSE so appealing at this moment? Well, I think there's probably a couple of different reasons. And for one, our market model, the fact that there are guys and girls down on the floor who are putting capital to work, taking the other side to stabilize a stock once it is open in the market. So our market model is very much a differentiator. We're the only exchange in the world that has that market model.

1:53:06Two are the services that we offer. We partner with the best-in-class firms to provide the best-in-class services. And three is the general community that we have of issuers at NYSE. That's great. Yeah. Talk to me about the Bitcoin ETF. That was an interesting one. Was anything different about that? How did that kind of play out? Yeah. So we were the exchange to bring the first Bitcoin ETF to market in partnership with Grayscale. We actually started working on that in 2016. What? Yeah. I thought you were going to say 2023 because I remember seeing some ads on CNBC and stuff for like, oh, Grayscale is happening.

1:53:42And then there was the approval and that took some time. Whenever you first got the pitch, did it immediately make sense? Did you think they were crazy at the time? I'm a big believer in the fact that ETFs are one of the great innovations in financial markets. It's a vehicle that allows for liquidity and transparency of assets that have less liquidity and transparency. So bringing Bitcoin and ETH and some of the other ones that are being talked about into the ETF structure, it really focuses on price transparency, liquidity, and trade certainty. The whole investor protection element. So it made a ton of sense to us that someone was thinking, yeah, well, if you wrap this in an ETF structure, you'll actually be able to get institutional investment.

1:54:37and people to get exposure to the asset class. So eight years of work, I imagine a lot of that's with the SEC and regulatory. But was there also a piece of talking to the buy side and the investing group to see if there was demand? Is that a piece of it or was it mostly just chopping? It was chopping a lot of regulatory wood. That makes sense. Yeah, there's a lot of that. Grayscale did a great job as did the other. Another overnight success, just like Figma. Overnight success, what? Seven or eight years in the making. Yeah, most overnight Figma. I think Figma was over a decade, but that's how these things happen.

1:55:15What's been your kind of framework around market volatility this year? How have you talked with clients and issuers around just kind of navigating that broadly? Yeah. As a technology, the big thing that I've been focused on is capacity in the systems to ensure that certainty and efficiency of trading was continuing to persist on those really volatile days. I always like to say you're investing for the long term, though. Like, don't watch the market on any one given day because the markets go up and the markets go down. And we've had such a long period of time where the markets just went up. And I think people had forgotten that at times markets do go down and it's okay.

1:55:59But if you are patient and thoughtful and disciplined about your investing and you invest for the long term, you'll see the rewards of that investment. Makes sense. Anything else, Jordy? What are you keeping track of for the rest of the year, the next quarter? What's on your mind? Excited to bring some more IPOs to market. We've got some big names that we're working with that we're really excited to come to market. Yeah, and continuing to just watch the market moves, ensure that our systems are... How big is the organization right now? Well, we're part of a bigger organization. The bigger organization is about 13 ,000 people.

1:56:44We've got about, within our era, we've got about 1 ,000 folks. That still feels pretty lean, given the size of some of the companies that we cover that are maybe a couple years old. I mean, AI is a big area that we're also watching as well. We've been using AI for more than a decade here. So we're very focused on the application of it for specific use cases, but ensuring that there's - You're talking about internally, not on the issuer side. Yeah, internally. But our area of focus is ensuring data privacy is held. That's the most importance to us. Yeah, it seems like we're still in the early innings of actually getting a lot of those products into enterprise-ready states.

1:57:35Absolutely. And when you're entrusted with the safety and security and liquidity of the most dominant American capital market, you can't always be on the most risk-on frontier in terms of technological adoption. Yes, but we've been using AI, for example, to help surveil the markets. Oh, sure. That makes sense. You can point AI at a secure, protected data set and get amazing efficiencies. That makes sense. Right? And that then feeds back to the human. It's like, okay, I just got a bunch of information based on this data set, this huge data set that I just pointed my AI at. Yep. It makes the human much more efficient.

1:58:15That makes a ton of sense. Well, thank you so much for stopping by. Thank you for hosting us. Given your engineering background. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for having us. Hope to be here many more times this year. Come back. Ideally, the windows open enough that we're just here every day. Yeah, just fully relocated. Is there an apartment up there? I'll hang out. Thank you so much for having us. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Nice to finally meet you. Take care. Nice to meet you guys. Thank you. Cheers. Well, thank you for watching our stream today. Do we have anyone else? Ben, are we ready to wrap?

1:58:46I think we're good, right? That's a wrap from the New York Stock Exchange. Thank you so much for watching. First of many, hopefully. We will see you tomorrow. One more congratulations to the thousands of figmates that made this a thing. It's truly incredible, and I can't wait to see where the company goes from here. Me too. Thank you for watching. We'll talk to you soon. Bye.