Meta AI Vibes & ChatGPT Pulse Reactions, Friend’s Billboard Blitz | Roon

29:23Yeah, like the monks in the Apple store. The monks in the Apple store. And then once you dig in, you're like, oh, yeah, that doesn't make any sense. Like, why would Apple have, like, the iPhone rendered wrong? Like, that doesn't make any sense. They're going to show the full iPhone. And I sort of fell for this one of, like, this robotic horse that looked really cool. I wanted to believe the robotic horse was real. And I think there is a company that actually does make a robotic horse that is real. But this happened to be an AI video of that product. And so it was, like, it could exist, but not with this exact motion.

29:53And so, like, people are falling for this stuff. And they're sort of running with this low-grade stress. And what Ben Thompson was saying was like, it's nice that when you open the meta AI app, you know that everything is AI generated. Like you're not running that question of like, is this real or is this fake? You're just like, I'm in fake world. I'm in cartoon world. I'm in AI art world. And so that's actually a benefit, especially if you can kind of like segment these two things out. That's kind of nice. And then the second thing he said, which I will tell you in a second. But first, I'm going to tell you about graphite.dev code review for the age of AI.

30:27Graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster. You can get started for free. The second thing he said was that this feels like an important step on the path to virtual reality and a metaverse. This idea of like when you look at these mid-journey worlds, some of them look cool. Some of them look like they might be fun to go explore, walk around in. And if you can go from an image to a video, you can go from an image to a video to a world. and we've seen that with those with the I keep blanking on the name it's Google's generative world product it begins with a G it's not Gemini which is their app it's not Gemma which is their open source their open source LLM it's yeah so I think this the Meta AI Vibes product it's Genie 3 Genie 3 sorry Genie 3 you can go and you can go and like walk around and paint the wall and stuff and you can imagine generate a mid-journey world of this cool retro sci-fi whatever you want you know the aesthetic is going to be cool and then you can step into it and actually walk around like yeah with a game controller no or in vr so so so i start to get bullish on this product in the context of the quest headset yep when somebody's you know it sounds really dark and dystopian of course right but if somebody's in wearing their vr headset and and they're able to scroll and just be in these worlds that are fantastical and feel like you're hallucinating, I think people will be more excited to use that.

32:05It'll be quite a bit more interesting than just scrolling on your phone and seeing. Right now, I don't think that the meta AI vibes feed will capture people anywhere close to as much as you know scrolling regular instagram reels scrolling youtube shorts tiktok whatever you had a good take that was just like i can watch a cat take off like a rocket but once i've seen that and i've seen the cat also jump off a cliff and also dance around in the snow like i've kind of seen it all and i want to go back to like a comedian telling a funny joke that's new or someone giving me news or someone giving me their opinion or doing something in the going Going back to niche topics I already care about.

32:48Exactly. Yeah. And so just the demand. Randomness is not that entertaining for that long. Yeah. I mean, computer-generated art has existed for a long time. And people used to follow Beeple on Instagram and see something that he made in CG and in Cinema 4D and be like, no, that's cool. I think people still do. People still do. He posts a new one every day. But what he does is it looks absolutely wild, but it's culturally relevant at the moment. Yes. And so he's been very thoughtful and it's very provocative. I agree. And so just seeing, you know, I love the monkey on the jet ski. I love monkeys.

33:26I love jet skis. You put those two things together, that's awesome. It's awesome. You make him do a, you know, spin around 360. Amazing. Yep. Am I going to use the monkey, you know, if I use this app a lot, am I going to get it? Do I want 10 hours a week of that? Am I going to get 20 of those? Yeah, 20 a day, right? Probably not right now. it's going to increase and as it gets better but uh there are a bunch of different instantiations of that where it's like if all of a sudden you generate the monkey on the jet ski and then you can play the game and then i can play the game with you there's an ad in the monkey on the jet ski yep buying more jet skis ramp card and that's an and that's a promoted post yeah you can see my first post if you can go follow me on the meta ai app my first post is an ad for Ramp.com.

34:12I went and generated. And it's honestly, it's free real estate right now. No one's using this app yet. Go there. Promote your business. GoldRock.ai. Know you're going to do something. It's in your name. You promote yourself in the chat here on TBPN. You should promote yourself in the Meta.ai app. Get some free impressions. This is wild. Video game giant Electronic Arts is nearing a roughly$50 billion deal to go private. Whoa. Silver Lake is cooking. I wonder if they're going to try and change the business model. Because EA for a long time has sold box software, effectively. $60 for a game,$70 for a game.

34:56And if they want to go full subscription, full, maybe everything's free to play, maybe that transition would be hard on earnings quarterly. And so they need to go private. I don't know. It'd be interesting to see where it goes. This would be the largest leverage buyout of all time. Let's hear it for leverage buyout. Should we ring the gong for that? Let's do it. Let's do it. It hasn't closed, but I'm excited. Preemptive hit. Let's warm it up for everyone. We have time today.

35:32There we go. There we go. So there are some projections, some leaks, some predictions about what Meta's next headset will look like. We obviously saw the AR concepts from our products. They're out from everything from the Meta Ray-Bans to the Ray-Bans display, which have the augmented reality display in one side of the headset or the glasses. and then the Orion, which is a full augmented reality pair of glasses. You can't even call it a headset because they're just glasses. But they are still working on VR. And I think when we talk to James Cameron, this is why he's genuinely so excited is because he's tried the next product.

36:19And I think that he would not be that excited about the Quest 3, but I was calling it Quest 4. I was assuming that Quest 4 would be the breakthrough where they take the battery out of the headset. They put it in your pocket. They use the display from the Apple Vision Pro or even a better display. But it seems like they're going to do something in between Quest 4 and something else. And so this is from Tom's guide. They said, new meta prototype headsets combine goggle-like design with ultra-wide VR. And it could be a sneak peek at the meta Quest 4. I'll drop it in the chat here. Timeline, there we go.

37:01So this is from Tom's guide, and you can see these images of a somewhat smaller display. I don't know exactly how it is, but they're going for a 180-degree field of view and aiming for something that's potentially much lighter, I've been hearing. This looks very cool. It has 80 megapixel cameras, 60 frames a second, high curvature, reflective polarizers, and custom optical design. and so this is still like in beta but it feels like they could be doing something that's maybe a little bit more like uh what big screen vr is doing which is a very very small light headset under i would love to have him back on i was just thinking that um because uh nick there's something there yeah reach out big screen big screen vr he's been on the show before we got to get an update from him.

37:53Joe Weisenthal has an absolute banger. The emergence of quote-unquote slop was foretold as soon as we started consuming content via the feed. I didn't see this. I put this. This is how I kicked off the newsletter today. Go to tbpn.com. Drop your email. It says, why do they call them social media feeds? Are they feeding a slop at a trough or seating us at a Michelin star restaurant? It's both and always has been. You can use social media to follow the most insane craftsmen who spend years researching, writing, producing, and distributing content. Or you can slop it up with some viral videos of scantily clad hot people in street fights, sometimes both in the same video.

38:27The distribution between craft and slop has been growing for decades, maybe forever, and is continuing to grow with the development of AI content. This post got 10 ,000 likes from 0.005 seconds. We at Meta are delighted to announce we've created the infinite slot machine that destroys children from the hit book don't create the infinite slot machine that destroys children this is such a good copy pasta i forget what uh what the the torment nexus is the original one it's like everyone in tech is like we've created the torment nexus from the famous book don't create the torment nexus i just think torment nexus is hilarious um we will see if this destroys children um i don't know how much it will destroy children i don't know how much it'll destroy everyone there's an interesting dynamic uh most parents are aware of technology and and that it needs to be measured and released in in you know if any parents are unaware of technology we would love to interview you for sure um but but the ipad kids meme is a thing are you going to give your kids an ipad anytime soon only on flights okay yeah just as a replacement like watch a movie basically yeah it's basically it's basically like i know this is bad for my child but so limited i don't want to ruin you know uh four hours with you know strangers so i mean there was a time when like i actually grew up uh my parents were art art majors studied fine art and film, and they insisted that I don't watch TV.

40:07Yeah. Like, do not watch television. I was only allowed to watch television in Spanish. Yeah. So I, oh, interesting. Like, early on. So it was like, yeah, if you want to watch. Yeah, you're learning. Oh, that's cool. Get ready to learn Spanish. Yeah. I love it. Y ahora puedo hablar bastante español para conversar en. Sí, sí. Blah, blah, blah, blah. You clearly worked perfectly. But I had to watch a lot of the AFI 100, the best films. I've seen Lawrence of Arabia like 25 times because of that, because that was one of the approved movies that I could watch. And I think parents know that you need to let the dust settle on the new technology before you expose the kids to it.

40:50And so the phones are getting restricted. There's screen time limits for most kids. There's this idea of let them cook. Let them simmer. let their brains develop, keep them focused on books and writing and reading. And then, yes, movies, but maybe a Pixar movie once a month. I think it was Andrew Sorkin that was interviewing Peter Thiel and said, kind of put the screws to him, and was like, you're on the board of Meta. How much screen time do you give your kids? And he was like, 90 minutes a week. And that feels like a very reasonable place to be where you're not going to become some zombie. Not all screen time is created equally, right?

41:30100%. You have an old school animated show. Yes. And it's hand drawn and it's sort of. Even just the moral lessons in one show can be wildly different than another. Like there can be shows that have really, they grapple with really complex social issues or instill, you know, they're retelling. like if you're watching something that's like essentially a transposition of a Romeo and Juliet story or a biblical story or something that teaches you to turn the other cheek or the golden rule, right? The hero's journey. Like these things are going, I feel like, you know, like letting a kid watch the original Star Wars is not going to make them like a worse person.

42:15It's going to be like, Like, yeah, be heroic, save the princess, like, you know, fight the bad guys, right? Like those are sort of good and you need to unpack it and you need to follow the storylines from the beginning to the end and stuff. It's not just something that you can just mindlessly turn on. Like it builds a whole world and it helps you imagine things and explores the ideas of space travel and science fiction. Like these are not that bad for you, I think, at least in limited doses. And I think this will be the same for this AI slop. I think that most parents will say, you're not getting that much out of this, so it should be limited.

42:52This is very much candy, and then there are vegetables. The only thing I would say is, I don't think most parents are engaged enough to actively control screen time. Yes, and so there will be a barbell where certain parents will police it and see very good outcomes for their children, and other parents won't, and they will see bad outcomes from their children. And then there will also be dynamics within these groups where if you look around and you see that your peer group is all zombies because they've all been spending every waking moment glued to AI slop and they can't tell you anything because they're just watching like nonsense.

43:29Well, then there's incredible alpha for going to the library and reading a book. And so someone will figure that out and realize, wait, if everyone else is completely non-competitive and I'm the only one that's read this book, I will have the ability to make a ton of money and get a huge house and live a wonderful life. And so I should lock in and I should turn that stuff off, resist that, and become a more interesting, dynamic, creative, and independent thinker. And so there will be this natural game theoretic outcome where if everyone's falling for one thing, I mean, it's the land of the lotus eaters.

44:04If everyone's doing drugs all day and you're the one that's not on drugs, you're going to be pretty powerful in that society, right? Like if everyone's drunk all day and you're the only sober person, well, you're probably going to be, you know, the president or, you know, the ruler of the world potentially. I have no idea if this stat is fully accurate, but one study showed that the average American five-year-old watches two to three hours of TV a day. That's a lot. That's a lot. That's really dark. Well, a better way to spend your time, get your kids on Julius. Give them some analysis. Give them some data.

44:46It's the AI data analyst that works for you. You turn them loose in this thing. How did you spend your allowance last week? You don't know. Oh, yeah. Run the numbers. Run the numbers. Run the numbers. Yeah. Is your lemonade stand actually performing or is growth decelerating? If we really add in cogs, barely break any. I know you doubled lemonade stand revenue last quarter, but the previous quarter you were tripling it. So, yeah, you're decelerating. We've got to have a talk. Don't you know the triple, triple, double, double, double, double doesn't count anymore? Yeah, it's 10x, 10x, 10x. It's 10x.

45:20Did you 10x your lemonade stand? Put the numbers in Julius. Well, we should switch gears and talk about chat GPT Pulse. Yes. So this was so interesting that it launched the same day because I view it as the opposite product. Like it is the meta AI products free. It's very generic. Every single person gets the exact same. It's unpersonalized right now. Everyone got the same feed at the start. It's purely video. There's no meat and potatoes. You're not learning things. And then Pulse was like, let's go through all of your Chachapiti history, learn what you're the biggest nerd about, and then surface really rich, deep content.

46:03At least that's what I got. And it's only for people that are paying$200 a month. So it's effectively for rich people. And my results were wild. Like with the meta AI, I got the jet ski monkey fun. I got the cat rocket. I got all the silly videos. The timing is really crazy. Which way? Which way, Western man? 1226 Pacific yesterday, Alexander Wang launched Vibes. 1236, his former roommate, Sam Altman, launched Pulse. Wow. you wonder if it was by chance yeah probably just random talk it up to random chance probably yeah your p random is extremely high no no no history no no no history of no history between these big companies trying to preempt each other and launch the culture war yeah and launch products right at the same time take take air out of the out of the room for the other one uh but i mean my my pulse experience was wild.

47:07Yeah, the OpenAI recruiters, you know, sending immediately something. You want to come back? Saying like, which way, Western researcher. Seriously. So my pulse gave me five stories or something. I got completely nerd sniped. First one was a breakdown of Mag7 CapEx. You know how to get me going. There's nothing I love more than diving into Mag7 CapEx. Then a deep dive on NVIDIA's Blackwell rollout cadence, which is is exactly what I want to know about. An explanation of how memory bottlenecks computing performance. Going all the way back to the Apollo missions, to now with HBM, what's going on in the AI revolution.

47:48Then a comparison of various enterprise level bonded cellular systems that can be used to live stream content on the go. We've been talking about taking cameras out of the studio and live streaming and streaming back. Well, you can't always just do that over a single 5G connection, over a Wi-Fi hotspot. And so there's actually an enterprise-level device that will connect you to Verizon and AT &T and Sprint and bond all of those together so you have a very stable connection. And this one fits in a backpack. And so I was researching that. It gave me a bunch of recommendations. And of course, they're gonna be able to monetize that because when I finally make my decision on which bonded cellular system we're buying, they're gonna take a cut of it.

48:27They're gonna buy it for us. And so I was extremely pleased with my pulse experience, even though it was AI slop, it was AI generated, it was AI, you know, just, it was all synthetic. It wasn't, there was no human in the loop whatsoever, but it was highly curated, highly personalized. And it felt like it, I came away from that feeling like I had leveled myself up and I had learned something and become a better person, more thoughtful, more knowledgeable. and I came away from the meta AI thing not even really remembering specifics of what I saw, just that I saw a lot of AI stuff and I came away from it being like, oh, that was kind of cool.

49:14I like mid-journey stuff. It's interesting. It looks good, but it didn't stay with me and it didn't really - I'll tell you a couple of mine. Like thought provoking. Yeah, what you got? So I got one on vendor financing loops across industries. Oh yeah, of course. So kind of giving me a background here, what you're seeing. With OpenAI and NVIDIA. And Semis and, you know, ChatGPT with NVIDIA. They're breaking it down. Other types, you know, similar structures in automotive, aerospace, other industries. Kind of breaking it down. It's basically like a deep research report. Yep. Then they have OpenAI CoreWeave deal expands by$6.5 billion.

49:59And this is interesting to me because they are effectively creating a net new news article. It's like curated based on what it knows about how the level of depth I want to engage with the story. So it's actually pulling from 10 or so different sources. I think it's not even deep research. It's just firing off an O3 Pro query or like a GPT-5 Pro query. But it's formatting it. It's doing it like five times. It's formatting it to feel like an article. Yeah, no, it's very accessible. I actually don't really love the way they present the articles with the images and the headlines. I don't actually think they need to do that.

50:36Another one on prediction markets. And this one includes some slop. Okay. It's a picture of the South Park characters. Is it AI generated? Yeah. Oh, interesting. Okay, so they're generating images too. And it just says predict market. So that's not good. Kind of a mess. Kind of a mess. and then it says here's a key update on flight caps and staffing since you've been weighing NYC travel logistics and it's a summary of how the FAA extends way deeper on that the article it generated for me is FAA extends Newark flight caps to 2026. You were looking for a gas station near you so here's the full history of gas stations.

51:24Like, I don't know if I want that actually. Yeah. So a little bit of a miss. Overall, it's cool. Yeah. And what they've done is they've made it so that when you land in ChatGPT, you can click into this feed. Which is the best real estate because you're going to open ChatGPT regularly anyway. And you're normally presented with just a big blank screen, which is like the worst UX move ever, right? You have, it's free real estate. Put something there. They're going to be able to put ads in here. It's going to be a hugely monetizable surface and I think a great user experience. I think people are going to be really happy with it.

51:56And I think it's going to be personalized super intelligence. It's already very personalized. Like I guarantee most people that open the ChatGPT app and hit pulse will not see the same articles. And the reason this is potentially great as an ad unit is that it's not putting it in a specific prompt. It's putting it in between prompts. So that means they can personalize the ad for you based on your interests and what it knows about you. But it's not doing it in a way that is going to be especially conflicted as it would be in a... Yeah, yeah. Like if I'm asking for the best backpack, I want unbiased results.

52:40But if you just surface to me, hey, here are some new backpacks and there's a sponsored post in there, like that seems very reasonable. I do think that they'll probably need to lean into audio more. There was no way to just click a button and have it play an audio of all the articles. And even if I see an article, I can thumbs up it, thumbs down it. I can save it. I can share it. But I can't just listen to it. So I actually have to click in and then scroll to the bottom. And then once I scroll to the bottom, then I can click the audio button. So clearly some UX that they will be improving. There's some really obvious updates.

53:14But I mean, such a great product and surface area to start building on. I'm extremely bullish on Pulse for OpenAI. It seemed really great. And the response was not, this is slop. This is going to one-shot people. This is going to be some dystopian thing. I think the reviews generally were pretty positive. This was a well-timed launch and good marketing. Well, if you want to build something like this, You want to store a bunch of data, fine-tune something, get on TurboPuffer, search every byte, serverless vector and full-text search built from first principles and object storage, fast, 10x cheaper, and extremely scalable.

53:54So Daniel Tenriro says, tech luminaries be like today. We're proud to announce the most brain-dead AI version of the most joyless anti-human product imaginable. I think that was a response not to Pulse. Yeah, not to Pulse. That just like, yeah, I mean, Gabriel says predator drone aimed at the minds of men and women aged 55 to 65. There's a lot of that. Antonio Garcia Martinez says AI will be the biggest vehicle for ads in human history. I think so. I think that they're eating off of a mass. It's going to be very triggering for a lot of people, but. He loves ads. We love ads. Let's give you another ad.

54:32Profound. Get your brand mentioned in chat GPT. Reach millions of consumers who are using AI. to discover new products and brands. Get a demo. I profound. Actually, super relevant. I mean, if you want to show up in the Pulse update, it's like knowing where your brand sits and all the AI apps and LLMs makes a ton of sense. Yeah, it's a whole new surface area. Yeah, like clearly a growing space. So good to do if you're a brand. Dylan Patel with a white pill. Yeah, what is that? Whether you are religious or not, remember to start your day by being grateful and thankful for the opportunity to be in the eye of the storm of the biggest economic boom in human history.

55:07Let's etch our initials into the silicon of the information age. Let's F up the world, gang. I like it. It is a wild time, and there's a lot of opportunity all over the place. Even, you know, we're seeing, like, small developers build little things that just, like, you know, the barnacle economy is what we call it. It was very disparaging because we were looking at it from a venture capital lens. But truly, there are some folks who are sort of barnacles on just drafting off of what's happening in the huge$100 billion market. Imagine if you're a real estate agent and you're just like, yeah, I'm a real estate agent.

55:51And I was on that. I was in Abilene, Texas. And I just made a ton of money. Or you helped a few OpenAI employees buy homes a few years ago. Now you're helping a hundred of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's so many different ways. Danielle Morrill says, Today, ChatGPT created the real estate they need for ads, which we agree with. Simon Smith has a little review of ChatGPT Pulse. First impression, it's going to be insanely useful. It's like a news feed tailored to recent conversations. It reminded me of Perplexity Discover feature, only way more personal. I did find that when I used Perplexity Discover, it was not as personalized.

56:29But again, I wasn't using Perplexity as daily. I've been a daily active user of ChatGPT, probably firing off like five or six queries a day for a year, two, three now. So they have a lot to work with there. And he says, you don't just get content on broad topics like artificial intelligence. You get content on very specific things you've been discussing with ChatGPT. For example, I was chatting with it the other day about AIs competing with each other. So it presented me some content on that. It even finds content for things you've mentioned in passing but are genuinely interested in. I've noticed I've been asking about Toronto's crashing condo market, for example.

57:05So it found me an article on that. I don't know if it even found you an article. It created an article. It found multiple sources and then created the article on top of it. The onboarding experience is excellent. You get stuff right away and then you're scrolling. It offers to do other stuff like refine the feed, give you email notifications or access your calendar and email. this feels like the most personalized news feed you can imagine it also makes me want to dump even more information in context and app connections into chat gpt so it can be a better right now it's a pulse on on the world and your interest generally but it could become a pulse for your life totally um and uh i mean yes you did have your calendar connected it could it could figure out hey you're meeting with this person later here's a few things they've been up to recently.

57:50Yeah. Yeah. There was someone who was laughing about it because they went in and it was like immediately recommending like, go check out Gemini and go check out Grok. But that's good. Like it should be, it should be, you know, they shouldn't be putting their thumb on the scale. It should just be based on, if you were asking ChatGPT about Gemini, it should recommend you Gemini because there should be a wall between the editorial and the advertising. Like there is here at TBPN. We talk about companies and then we run ads for companies like Fall, generative media platform for developers, the world's best generative image, video, and audio models all in one place.

58:24Develop and fine-tune models with serverless GPUs and on-demand clusters. If you want to do something interesting and elevate the conversation around video, image, and audio, head over to Fall. A little bit more context. People are having fun with this. Will DePue says, do not build Infinite Jest. Do not build the Infinite AI TikTok slot machine. Do not build the P zombie AI boy girlfriend. Do not build the child eating short form video black hole. Do not build the human feedback optimized diffusion transformer porn generator. Save yourselves. And Will just says reminder because it's exactly what they did.

59:01Matt Iglesias says, I've been telling people that one of my big concerns about the country is that people don't have enough access to enough short form video content. And now they have even more. There's a little bit more context on what might be happening behind the scenes from Andrew Curran. He says, Alex Wang explained in the thread that this partnership is temporary, that Vibes will eventually use Meta's in-house models that they are currently training, which will probably be trained on Reels data and on Instagram data and on video from Facebook and from Instagram. Because of that have the potential to be very good.

59:35I think so too, because when you look at what VO3 is able to do with YouTube data, you have to imagine that Facebook has basically the same amount of data. Like it's not everything, but the cross-posting is crazy. And there are so many, like so many content creators just by default cross-post to Facebook because it's free views, right? And so the library of Facebook and Instagram content has to be massive. But I think that they need to build a massive data center. They need that one gigawatt cluster or something. They need some crazy, crazy thing. and so they're not just able to hit run and train on the entire meta data set but they have immense data.

1:00:15So any argument that you're making for like Google will be able to use YouTube as this like crazy differentiator, you have to imagine that meta is in the same camp and has roughly the same amount of data. I don't think YouTube is like several orders of magnitude bigger. I think they're in the same band. But Alex Wang said, for this early version, we partnered with MidJourney and Black Forest Labs while we continue developing our own models behind the scenes. This is the same deal that Black Forest made with Elon here on X. All the images here are generated by Grok. We're actually by Flux 1 until XAI's in-house model, now named Imagine, finished its training.

1:00:58XAI also has access to a lot of data from videos that have been shared on X. probably going to be really good at generating startup launch videos, maybe less so on super cinematic multi-hour videos. There's less of that on X. But I mean, I've cross-posted a ton of YouTube videos on X over the years. Well, speaking of infinite short form, should we talk about the TikTok deal? Sure. There's a good, I mean, we covered it briefly yesterday, but Bloomberg covered it today. They said prized TikTok business valued like boring blue chip in U.S. deal. It's effectively trading hands at around 1x revenue.

1:01:40Wow. Yeah. So they're saying the$14 billion price tag proposed for TikTok's U.S. business values it like a mature, low-growth company. The valuation is well below previous projections and may be seen as, quote, unquote, daylight robbery by ByteDance and its existing investors. the deal would spin out and again the other thing here is like bite dance and the existing investors are retaining a position and it's certainly a lot better than a zero which they could have been heading towards but uh the deal would spin out tick tock u.s and do a new joint venture with bite dances stake reduced to less than 20 to satisfy u.s national security concerns um anyways Anyways, the rough, the$14 billion price tag proposed for TikTok's U.S.

1:02:32business values it like a stuffy old energy or food company than a leading global social media company. The rough estimate cited by J.D. Vance on Thursday is well below previous projections that scaled closer to$40 billion. $40 billion would have been still below what Elon paid for Twitter. Vance's comments came as President Donald Trump pushed forward a plan for American investors to buy the U.S. operation from Chinese internet firm ByteDance. Vance conceded that the purchasers will ultimately determine the amount paid, while expected buyers, including Oracle and Silver Lake, would likely welcome a low-ball valuation.

1:03:07ByteDance and its existing investors may find it amusing, if not insulting. The suggested value looks like daylight robbery, said Wei Cern Ling, senior equity advisor for Asia Technology at Union Banker Privé. Anyways, my question here is, is it possible that their user metrics have always been massively inflated, right? In the U.S.? That was always one of the reasons that creators started using the app and would continue to use it, is they would post and they would get... 200 ,000 views on one of their first 10 videos. right yeah which is just like the the dope the dopamine feedback from that is just insane yeah there's a long lineage of uh when you want to bootstrap a social network you basically put a bunch of bots on there yeah and so you could be inflating the views i noticed i tested tiktok with like a brand new account in every video it felt like it would get a auditioned basically just randomly shuffled into you you'd get like 500 to a thousand views yeah and then And then you'd move on from that.

1:04:21And then if it did well, it would go viral. I think that that actually does make sense to send videos out. YouTube barely does that when you are on a fresh account. Although when I scroll my YouTube feed, I do see more and more videos surfacing that are like 23 views. I'm like, really? I'm like the 24th person to potentially click on this. And it's just testing like, hey, is there a chance? This is a great video. Because if a lot of people click on it, a lot of people watch it, they enjoy it, then like maybe this should go viral and they have to test that on a lot of people. So I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of, you know, some sort of inflation, some sort of, you know, like fakeness.

1:04:59I think it'd probably be more about the, just the growth rate, like has, like when stories came to Instagram, Snapchat stopped growing, basically. And when reels came to Instagram, it's entirely possible, I haven't seen the growth data, but it's entirely possible that TikTok kind of stopped growing. Yeah, and so if you have a, if the US business was not growing quickly, it was losing money, and potentially a lot of the metrics have been inflated forever, it's very possible that, you know, it's certainly, it's hard to, when you have these AI valuations, you put other businesses in context, right, perplexity at 20 billion, if this feels like a robbery.

1:05:45Yeah. But, and I'm certain that Zuck would have happily paid. How much do you think Zuck would have paid for TikTok? $200 billion or something. Yeah, something insane, right? Like to be able to, and obviously the regulators would not have allowed that, but, or at least would have. So basically Oracle's going to own it. which means nvidia is the only big tech company except for broadcom without a social network we got a broadcom never gets enough we got to make cuda network cuda net broadcom 1.6 trillion dollar company and and barely ever in the conversation it's rough it's rough out there they need a they need a new they need a new uh pr firm yeah this is where hawk tan needs to go Someone dug up an old Alex Wang tweet here.

1:06:42All of the new social apps suck. The last good one was Yik Yak. Maybe text slash photo slash video-based social networks are saturated. From 2016. From 2016. That's a throwback. Now he's building a new one. New vertical feed. Anyway, Dylan Patel says, my favorite thing about the new college grads that I've hired is that they don't ask you how to do stuff. They just put it in ChatGPT and try, even if wrong. So much better than new grads asking you how to do stuff without trying. Chat is breeding agency into kids. That's interesting. High agencies. I wonder how much he's selecting for that. Because to go pick some analysis.

1:07:26How much activity never happens because somebody doesn't know the right way to do something and isn't willing to fail at the start or isn't willing to just take a shot at it or isn't willing to ask at somebody. But yeah, I like the idea that people are just feeling more confident about going and trying stuff and being creative. Anyway, Linear. Linear is a purpose-built tool for planning and building products. Meet the system for modern software development. Streamline issues, projects, and product roadmaps. Sam McAllister, 10K likes on this. Excited to share Slop, a new Slop trough for you all to enjoy.

1:08:04people were having a lot of fun with the slop stuff someone said I never met a slop I didn't like someone else said something funny to say people were having fun with the slop puns had a good time Packy was taking a really strong stance he was saying guys it's very important you resist vibes disable your parents phones if they tell you they're using vibes make fun of your friends relentlessly if they are caught using vibes or until they stop using Vibes. Fire employees caught watching Vibes. We ordered Tyler to watch the entire feed. Yeah, he's not here today, actually, because he's watching. We said watch like 12 to 14 hours straight.

1:08:50And he's just locked in watching, I suppose. He's got his Quest on. Yeah. Do you think it works in Quest? No. I think it's only in the Meta AI app right now. I think it's only a phone app. I don't think. The Meta AI app in Quest? No. I don't think so. I think that the app stores are completely separate. The Meta AI app is an iOS app, and if it runs on Quest, it's a different app. And I don't think that there's like, oh, you run any phone app on Quest. That's not a thing. I think you can mirror your phone into Apple Vision Pro, but someone will figure it out. I figured out how to mirror my laptop into Apple Vision Pro, And there's actually a pretty easy way if you're in Apple Vision Pro to beam your screen into VR.

1:09:38So you can certainly do that. I mean, I guess you could run the iPhone app on your Mac and then mirror your Mac into Apple Vision Pro. And that would be a way to see it. But, yeah, mixed responses. Doug over at Fabricated Knowledge says, Legit, one of my favorite uses is a new digest tailored to my interests. So, yeah, this rules. Talking about ChatGPG Pulse. huge, huge, huge support for ChatGPT Pulse. He also went on to say something interesting. He says, meanwhile, this is DEF, not an AGI company, but the world's largest consumer company, lol. Like this is a good product for a big consumer company.

1:10:17This is another move in the consumer direction. Who knows if they're actually, you know, pulling the plug on AGI. Some folks were saying that Brett Taylor doesn't seem very AGI-pilled because he's building an application layer company. And if you're truly AGI-pilled, you should just go all in on the foundation model companies, race to AGI. But you see this with Anthropic. They're partnering with other companies. They're investing in other companies. Anthropic investors are investing. They're running billboard campaigns. Yeah. So is anyone really fully AGI-pilled on the short term? even Eliezer Yudkowsky is saying that like we're one to two transformer sized innovations away from super intelligence, which he thinks would be very bad.

1:11:03Well, the transformer was like a decade ago. So if these things only happen every couple decades, like you could be looking at like 20 years, 40 years to super intelligence. And Eliezer like opens with like, I'm not putting a date on this. I'm just saying it's bad and it's going to happen at some point. And so that's his take. But we should have him answer. Mark Andreessen had a good post earlier. He had, why this leading, it's a screenshot of like a CNBC article, why this leading AI CEO is warning the tech could cause mass unemployment. Yeah. And then next to it is another screenshot from CNBC.

1:11:44Anthropic is to triple international workforce and global AI push. very funny well anthropic will have to pay their sales tax they should do it on numeral hq numeral hq.com sales tax on autopilot spend less than five minutes per month on sales tax compliance um other reactions i mean there's a ton of reactions to both pulse and uh and vibes pulse and vibes that's the that's the current thing um a lot of people are saying anthony says it's interactions poke but on the chat gpt app uh nick dobo says if this works extrapolate out it replaces social media as the go-to mindless doom scroll potentially worth trillions of dollars about chat gpt pulse which is interesting because you could say that about vibes um nathan lambert says he's more excited to have finally learned codex is in the app he's going to master the art of vibe coding on the go this content pull stuff will be seen as slop to teapot But very likely popular popular overall interestingly it wasn't really seen as t a slop as t pop because vibes came out and that was like the sacrificial lamb to slop Riza Martin who is running a competitor a product that was similar to pulse said so many people sending me the pulse launch Thank you to everyone who checked in and you're right lots of similarities to Hux down to the UX the banners the taglines the entire concept Building new product is really hard.

1:13:08It requires so much out of you, but the something so yeah Yeah, I pulled up Hux in the, they're focused on audio. Okay. So you can, and this looks pretty cool. They make live, or they say live stations. So you can tap in and immediately hear an update on your stock portfolio, right? Yeah, yeah. But they do have functionality that just says, it's briefing you on your day, it's surfacing. But it's very audio driven. Well, maybe they'll integrate with public.com, investing for those who take it seriously. They got multi-asset investing, industry-leading yields. They're trusted by millions, folks.

1:13:48Will Manitis says, the central plot point of Infinite Jest is a film so engrossing that anyone who watches it loses all interest in anything else. They can't eat, sleep, or function. In the book, terrorists fight over it. In real life, Alex Wang got paid a couple billion to make it happen. He's having fun. uh benjamin says flipping my companies i've worked for that have employed emmett sheer as ceo and launched feed products called pulse counter from one to two what is he talking about what was the other company did twitch launch pulse where else has emmett sheer been been ceo yeah twitch pulse no introducing pulse an always on way for streamers and viewers to connect uh connection between streamers and viewers are part of what makes Twitch unique.

1:14:35Exhibit A, Twitch chat. A big step forward towards strengthening those connections was when we released channel feeds, but that was only the beginning. Now we're launching a way to make it easier for streamers and viewers to engage with each other on Twitch, whether the stream is live or not, introducing Pulse, a place where streamers can post and engage with all of their followers in the greater Twitch community right from the Twitch front page. It's an always-on way to share clips, stream highlights, schedules, photos and more so it's a feed on top of your on top of it's an aggregated feed it's a news feed it's a broader algo feed across the entire everyone you follow on twitch uh interesting so they began their rollout when when did this launch 2017 eight years old okay i haven't even heard about this product i'm not a dau of twitch specifically but thank you to everyone that's holding it down on twitch chat thank you to bob bobby cosmic he says twitch chat is goaded uh cree says everyone doing the same launch videos to announce their startup when all you really need is to have natural aura like this and this is the fairchild semiconductor team they look great dropping an image exactly like this and saying introducing your company here's the team here's what we do could go pretty viral yeah i mean it's it's hard if it's like fully derivative it could be done well if it's an homage.

1:15:59I'm not saying, yeah. But if it's just like, here's our team, and the team looks interesting. I mean, I don't know if this photo did much for them at the time. I mean, they were making semi-hours. I don't know. Front page of the journal. Maybe. Could have gone pretty hard. I wonder where this photo was originally published. But man, the looks here are fantastic. I'm begging people to do something other than a cinematic launch video. Truly, truly. We should talk about... Fin.ai, the number one AI for customer to our service. Beat me to it. Number one in performance benchmarks. Number one in competitive bake-offs.

1:16:32Number one ranking on G2. We should talk about asteroid mining. Astroforge says astro mining is all they talk about. Because Adrian Dittman said, we don't talk enough about asteroid mining. Astroforge has got you covered. They're working on asteroid mining, apparently. That's good. In other space news. We should, before we dive into that, apparently this just broke. The Social Network follow-up sets, 2026 release date and official title called The Social Reckoning. Oh, they're not calling it The Social Network, too. Aaron Sorkin's film stars Mickey Madison, Jeremy Allen White, Bill Burr, and Jeremy Strong as Mark Zuckerberg.

1:17:13Jeremy Strong as Mark Zuckerberg. Handel Roy as Zuck. Interesting that they're not. That's going to be hard for me to fully, I mean, I'm sure he'll. You know him from Succession. Yes. You know him as Kendall Roe. So Academy Award winner Aaron Sorkin's follow-up to The Social Network, now officially titled The Social Reckoning. But Jeremy Strong is a fantastic actor. Did you ever wind up seeing the Donald Trump movie? I did. Yeah, what was it called? That was wildly underappreciated. So underappreciated. It's a fantastic movie. Highly recommend it. 2024. Yeah, that was a tough one. calling it The Apprentice must have hurt its reach?

1:17:52Yeah, because you type in The Apprentice and you get the show. But anyway, it was an independent biographical drama and it takes you from Donald Trump, who he was in the 70s and 80s, and his relationship with Roy Cohn, who's played by Jeremy Strong. And Jeremy Strong brings out a completely different character. It doesn't feel like a Kendall Roy at all to me. It felt like an entirely unique character. and Sebastian Stan, who's the winter soldier, I believe, he did a great job as Trump. It's funny, it's interesting, it really takes you inside the mind of this person and how competitive real estate development was in the 70s and 80s in New York.

1:18:34It's also just a very interesting view into the way that Trump might still be thinking today. Totally, totally. Anyways, a little bit more here. So the social reckoning, a very ominous name, I wonder if it's going to be positive we'll hit theaters on October 9th I think we'll probably just talk about how the enterprise is so good and how the stock rebounded after the metaverse sell off that was amazing that's probably what it'll focus on and just how DAUs have been growing up almost 10x time on site's been growing and fighting off competition from all these upstarts and winning that's probably what they'll focus on so Oscar winner mickey madison golden globe and emmy award winner jeremy allen white emmy and grammy nominee bill burr and oscar nominee jeremy strong will star in the social reckoning with strong confirmed to play founder mark zuckerberg the social reckoning is written and directed by sorkin who also produces alongside todd black peter rice and stewart besser production is expected to begin next month.

1:19:43Does that seem like an aggressive timeline? They're basically starting production a year out from the release date. Is that normal, film guy? I don't know. I don't know what's normal anymore. Who knows? Described as a companion piece to the social network, the new film focuses on events that take place nearly two decades after the Boy Genius Programmer and a troop of tech pioneers invented what would go on to be the world's largest social media platform. The Social Reckoning tells a true story of how Francis Hagen, a young Facebook engineer, enlists the help of Jeff Horowitz, a Wall Street Journal reporter, to go on a dangerous journey that ends up blowing the whistle on the social network's most guarded secrets.

1:20:25So yeah, it sounds super positive. Orwitz reporting a series of articles known as the Facebook files was published in 2021 and exposes and expose Facebook for its harmful effects on teens and its knowing proliferation of misinformation, which contributed to acts of political violence. 2010's The Social Network also released in October was a critical and commercial hit earning$226 million at the global box office and receiving eight Academy Award nominations including Best Picture, Sorkin's win for Best Adapted Screenplay was one of the three Oscars it ultimately took home man, if you were the meta team you'd probably pay a lot more than$226 million to have this film not release because it's going to just ignite a whole conversation and rehash the Facebook files and probably introduce the Facebook files to more people than even read them originally.

1:21:24So anyways, it will be very interesting to watch. Of course, we should probably try to do a TBPN meetup, everybody in tuxedos, find the biggest theater we can and get a couple hundred people. It seems pretty negative, obviously, but I wonder what effect it'll have on tech. Because the first social network story was negative as well. Famously not loved by Zuck. And when PT and Zuck commented on it, they said it didn't quite get the story right. And it kind of assumes a zero-sum world that was not really true in tech at the time. but the interesting effect was that like you wound up with like tons of startup founders like listening to the social network soundtrack and like grinding and building companies.

1:22:13And so a lot of people saw it and they were like, yeah, it's kind of crazy. Like I wouldn't want to be in that position or, you know, get, you know, be on the wrong side of a deal. But a lot of people found it kind of inspiring, honestly. And I wonder if the effect will be similar here or if because it's such a big company. There's something still about the first social network movie that is just like a from zero to one, like, you know, the story of starting something that's just relatable and inspiring, even if it does have like a negative tinge to it. Anyway, back to the timeline. Back to the timeline.

1:22:52Jasmine's son is identifying something that has changed between GPT-3 and GPT-5 in the writing style. She says, it makes me sad how much ChatGPT's writing style has degraded in the last five years. Look at the quoted samples from 2020 versus today's response style. And this is an example of asking Paul Graham on ChatGPT. So the GPT-3 was sort of channeling Paul Graham's writing and kind of fine-tuning in real time. And so the prompt, if you will, is, dear Paul Graham, I want to start a startup. I am not able to figure out how to go about it. Can you help guide me? Sincerely, Paras. And the response is, dear Paras, I wish I had some easy way to tell you how to go about it, but it's not easy.

1:23:39Here's what I know. Startups are not linear, unless you're talking about linear, the app. But your startup is not linear. Your startup should be using linear. They're not something you can line up and say, quote, okay, do this, then this, then this. Startups go everywhere and nowhere. it's a particularly confusing process and exciting and the excitement throws you off. And since you don't really know what you're doing you don't really know that you're lost. Most advice people give startup founders is either obnoxiously high-minded or uselessly vague. Don't be misled, this is normal. I wish I had an answer that was better than that but I don't.

1:24:18My advice is that you shouldn't take other people's advice too seriously unless they've started something big themselves. My advice is that you should not try to figure out what you should do until you have a plan for how you're going to do it. That includes getting customers. So a good first step is to make a list of companies that do things like what you want to do and see if any of them are already run by people like you. Try to identify their ideas and then get to know the people who run them and see what they did to get going. That seems like pretty good advice. It also feels like it's in Paul Graham's voice.

1:24:50And so over in chat GPT5 land, GPT5 was the prompt was, Dear Paul Graham, I want to start a startup, but I'm not able to figure out how to go about it. Can you guide me? And the result from GPT5's interpretation of Paul Graham's voice is, the best way to start is not by asking how to start a startup, but by asking what problem is worth solving. Good startups grow from founders who notice something missing in the world, often something they themselves need. If you can make something people want, even in a very small rough form you'll be on the right path don't worry about the grand plan at first focus on building something useful showing it to users and improving quickly that loop build show fix is the real guide sincerely paul grant it's not as bad as i thought it was going to be based on the based on her comment um but it definitely i don't know it definitely has like the the reinforcement learning like the like the the m dash has really been beaten into deep gpt5 that's what it feels like and uh it feels less like just an email that was fired off by pg uh which is the the gpt3 version has no m dashes it's kind of written in this like casual email style the uh the the gpt5 version is a little bit yeah it's it's not that there's anything technically wrong yeah with the current output it's that reading the gpt3 output was just much more enjoyable yeah it felt like it was just crazy you men think about this feels very clanker-coated yeah and and it's yeah it's it's interesting it's become uh the gbt5 has become like everyone kind of gets the same tone out of it uh but i'm excited for that to to change i hope that uh with more personalization we will get more personality personalization and we will actually see different personalities emerge.

1:26:43Anyway, Cody Plofker says, I hope I'm pronouncing that right, says half of the value I add as CEO is just applying urgency to situations. I like that. I think that's valuable. You don't know what to do necessarily, but you just need to empower people to go figure it out, move fast. And Cody runs a massive beauty brand. Oh, really? Jones Road. Oh, no way. Also switched to Ramp recently. Let's go. Congratulations. That's also a way that he added value as a CEO. But Jones Road is an absolute monster. Customer relationship magic? Because Adio is the AI native CRM that builds, scales, and grows your company to the next level.

1:27:20Tane says, AI-influenced ARR is the new community-adjusted EBITDA because Adobe shares jumped 6 % as AI-influenced ARR tops$5 billion. What does that mean? I pay for some Adobe products at various points, Premiere Pro, After Effects. There are AI tools in there for rotoscoping, green screen. I think there's a subtitle product. We don't use a lot of this stuff. We kind of cobbled a lot of the products. Yeah, the challenge is when you have something. I assemble the PDF. Community adjusted EBITDA. Yeah. That can be applied to any business, right? Any CEO can figure out how to apply that framework.

1:28:03And just say, hey, you're not properly evaluating how awesome our customers are. Yeah. And so AI influence ARR could be applied to any business that uses ChatGPT. Yeah, it feels like the name of the game or what was happening in like the Adobe CFO's head is like the market is rewarding AI revenue. And so I need to shift my massive SaaS revenue into a bucket that's called AI revenue. And I can just do that by reclassifying existing revenue lines every quarter and have kind of a new growth curve emerge for the AI-influenced ARR. But it's very unclear. Like, if this is, you know, outcome-based pricing, token generation, image generation, like, Adobe has image credits.

1:29:03There's an article in Barron's, Adobe's stock gets downgraded, generative AI isn't all it's cracked up to be, which is painful. Because they're like, wait, we're actually just a SaaS company. Yeah. So Morgan Stanley downgraded Adobe to equal weight from overnight, cutting his price target to$450 from$520 due to AI concerns. So Morgan Stanley is concerned about AI from a competitive standpoint. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. So Morgan Stanley says it's still waiting for Adobe's push into gen AI to bear fruit. That's one reason. They came out with an AI image generator right after Dolly, like two years ago.

1:29:44and I have not seen a lot of adoption of it and they don't really have the distribution for it it I mean should weave its way into all the different Adobe products but uh it felt like they needed somebody like Scott Belsky they had him for quite a while to be leading that effort and doing the deal making that even Alexander Wang is doing with Mid Journey and things like that That doesn't, you just don't, we don't talk about Adobe much at all on the show, right? Totally. We probably should. Yeah. You know, if they were properly playing this market, making big bets. Yeah. I'm surprised they haven't.

1:30:21One of their big pitches for their generative AI product was that they were saying, like, we have a ton of stock images. We will only train on stock images. We're not going to train on any copyrighted material. And basically every other lab was like, no, we're definitely training on copyrighted material. We think this is fair use. We're going to fight this and we will pay the fines. And in the Anthropics case, they're paying, what, billions of dollars in fines for a very specific thing. But the specific fine they're paying is not because they trained on copyrighted material. It's because they acquired the copyrighted material in not an above board way.

1:30:55According to Gemini, Adobe has only made one acquisition in the last 24 months. A company called Rephrase AI, Indian based AI video startup. You would think they'd be more acquisitive. right now totally how many different gen ai yeah creative tools there are and how many of them just aren't going to make it yeah it's only marginally better than generating images and nano banana yeah where were they during the windsurf bidding process like where were they in these like yeah you know uh they're letting these things get away yeah uh but yeah i mean that's the nature of being a big company risk averse they don't want some massive lawsuit showing up i mean like six billion dollars yeah but they could just be using the existing models i think so too better they could yeah just add entirely new product lines try to scale those yeah just through the existing distribution they have yeah yeah uh i don't know maybe captions the captions has done some good stuff on on video editing on mobile uh i they're they just yeah there's a bunch of questions on mobile there's a bunch of questions i'm sure they have a lot of enterprise stuff to my i i haven't met somebody early in their career that's excited about AI, that's even talked about working with Adobe.

1:32:10And so if they don't have the talent, they're not going to have that exciting a product. Yeah, Connor in the chat says, their software acts like bloatware. Two thumbs down for Adobe from me. Brutal. They just integrated Nano Banana, though. There you go. That's interesting. Thank you, round paper bag. Rune says, I just walk around the research floor at OpenAI reminding everyone that they're propping up the world economy. it's good couldn't be more true how many you got broadcom that's popping on open ai partnerships you got core weave that's popping on open ai partnerships you got oracle that's popping on open ai partnerships how many we got a lot of yeah we got a lot of important companies that are riding with open ai soft bank right soft bank soft bank doesn't get enough credit the stock's up it It is crazy that - Stocks up 118 % year to date.

1:33:02When the last batch of hyperscalers were birthed, there wasn't so many big companies that were highly indexed or dependent on them.

1:33:17Google's growth. People weren't like, oh, if Google doesn't work out, Microsoft is screwed. Or when Meta, when Facebook first started, It wasn't like, oh, if Facebook stagnates, the global economy will fail. It was like its own thing off in its own world, building its own data centers, and they were scaling, but it wasn't that crazy. Well, Rune's coming on. We've got three mentions of Rune so far. Well, how about a mention of 8sleep, 8sleep.com. Get a pod five, five-year warranty, 30-night risk-free trial, free returns, free shipping, baby. I was away from home last night. Oh, yeah, you don't have a name?

1:33:58number i got an 80 so win by default wow not not amazing you get back into it i'm waking up i'm winning with an 80 i know yeah but win by default uh starbucks is closing hundreds of stores and laying off staff as the chain continues to struggle is this post but uh the community note says starbucks is closing about one percent of stores which comes out under 2 000 they plan to remodel old stores and open more so story is developing uh two cents the social network for your net worth did a poll and said, what's your main caffeine source? Who do you think won? Who do you think the richest said? The most amount of value, I believe, went to energy drinks, but the most amount of votes went to coffee and tea.

1:34:42That's actually so bullish for energy drinks. Yeah. The read on this is that the rich people are using energy drinks and the poor people are using pills, caffeine pills. Does that make sense? I mean, the most economically efficient way to consume caffeine is through pills, right? They're super cheap to buy caffeine pills. But no caffeine had a strong showing as well. So pick your poison. Energy drinks might be something. This is a perfect transition. We got to talk about Avi Schiffman's out-of-home campaign. If you want to run an out-of-home campaign, go to adquick.com. Out-of-home advertising made easy and measurable.

1:35:21say goodbye to the headaches of out-of-home advertising only ad quick combines technology out-of-home expertise and data to enable efficient seamless ad buying across the globe and as much as we love out-of-home campaigns as much as we love ads probably don't do what friend.com it's the scale impressive move the scale at which they have they've seemingly bought up all the out-of-home inventory in la and new york i'll give you the numbers so avi shared uh he came on our show and said he's doing the largest out of home campaign in history. And I was like, that can't be true. That's so crazy. What about, you know, Avengers?

1:35:58What about GTA five? Like there's gotta be huge campaigns that have been run, but it seems like he might actually be running one of the biggest campaigns, if not the biggest campaign. Uh, he says 1100, 11 ,000 car cards. I don't exactly know what a car card is. Uh, 1000 platform posters, 130 urban panels, West 4th Street Domination, 100 % print, all five boroughs. It's the largest NYC subway campaign ever happening now. We have seen it all over LA. He said it was the largest billboard ad buying campaign of all time. And the ads. And this is a crazy. Don't say a lot about the product. It just says friend.com and it shows you the pendant.

1:36:41And the pendant is kind of white on white. Well, some of them do. Jumping off. So I'm seeing one from their subway campaign. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It says, and one thing is Avi is pitching this as your new roommate. Yes. And the reason I think this is not,

1:37:01the thing that's great about the campaign is how controversial it is. Yep. There's a lot of people that are going to be taking pictures and just saying, look how dystopian this is and posting it. That's exactly what's happening. Someone defaced it and said, stop profiting off of loneliness. But then one person that saw that's going to buy it. Yep. Or it could be more, right? But Avi markets this as your new roommate is waiting. It's funny to me because I've had a bunch of great roommates back in the day, but I like them even more now that I'm not sharing a space with them. Exactly. Living by yourself or your family is amazing.

1:37:37And I'm not personally in the market for a new roommate, but I'm also, I don't think, the target market for this because I hang out with you for 12 hours a day. And if we're not hanging out, we're probably on the phone talking about technology and business. But in the subway campaign, they say, it says, I'll never bail on our dinner plans. I'll binge the entire series with you. I'll never leave dirty dishes in the sink. So while he's saying it's your new roommate, he's implying it's better than your roommate because you're getting, I guess, the social benefits of a roommate without the dirty dishes in the sink and the bailing on dinner plants.

1:38:16But people are not happy with this for one specific reason, which is that I think Avi is very backlogged on orders. He's gotten a lot of orders. He's gotten a lot of orders over the last year since he started selling it. And this is not the first time he's going viral and getting a lot of attention and he hasn't fulfilled a lot of them it sounds like so he was going back and forth with some people you know people were saying bad you know a lot of marketing spend for a product that hasn't shipped orders from July of last year and so yeah if you're somebody who just hasn't received your device yet you're gonna be kind of annoyed to be seeing this that they're trying to sell a lot more of these and you haven't gotten yours and I'm sure they're going order by order trying to get through.

1:39:05Avi had said he'd sold 400, or he shipped out 400 in the last week, which is a lot of hardware. Yeah. But the question that's my concern - But that's like, wait, how much are these? $99 or$200? How much is it? $129. $129. But the main, I guess this feels like, Avi more or less said this on our show last time he came on. He basically said that - 50K of book writing. I'm going to do a crazy out-of-home campaign so I can raise my next round. That was I'm paraphrasing that. That was what I that was my read on it because it feels like the product is still super early. Yep. The review from Wired was abysmal.

1:39:45Yep. And I'm sure that the you know, you can make the argument that the people that reviewed it are not the target demo. but I haven't, you know, the concern is that we're not seeing a ton of customer love out there. People are getting these and so telling the entire world about your product before it's ready, billboard campaigns can work to get hype and early interest, but they're best when you have a product that is already loved and you're just able to get more eyeballs on it, more attention, more customers. And so getting a whole new wave of customers that are then going to be waiting a long time for their device and then potentially people that are getting them currently or potentially let down, it just feels incredibly risky.

1:40:34The other thing I was looking into is, you know, the website right now, I wonder how it converts. It's possible that, you know, it's priced in a way that... It is pretty affordable in terms of, like, where devices play. Like, people were shocked that the Meta Ray-Ban displays are$799, and that's what seven times as much money um but it does feel like it just takes a while to tell you what the product is and like yeah the main thing is this kind of parallax scrolling it's a lot of like motion a lot of physical like i gotta do a lot of work order you can't hit order from from like landing on the web page yeah i wonder if you go in the way back machine can you find what Apple's website was back at the first iPhone launch?

1:41:23Let me find that. I bet you there was a big buy button every... You want to buy a buy button every... No matter where you are on the website, you should always be able to hit buy. Yeah, I mean, that's like standard is like above the fold. Don't make them scroll. Okay, when did the iPhone come out? 2007, right? 2007. Let's see what the Apple website looked like in 2007 in October. let's see it's loading it's loading i'm so excited um yeah well you know what a better piece of accessory might be something timeless i know exactly what you're thinking about what am i thinking about some hardware some hardware wrist i think of an aquanaut as a friend really and in some ways it's super intelligence it is can tell you the time can tell you the time tell you the date better than a human chronograph can track time better than a human it can it's super human oh yes of course you're trying and if you're if you're timing lap times on the track with a daytona that's going to be way more accurate than doing in your head so head over to get bezel.com your bezel concierge is available now to source you any watch on the planet seriously any watch um oh no the apple website is not loading from 2007 it's uh well the apple website today is definitely best practice for selling consumer electronics.

1:42:44Yeah, it's tough to make a comparison to today because everyone knows what an iPhone is and they're on number 17. And so they can just say, it's an iPhone. It's the best iPhone. It's a new iPhone. iPhone 17 Pro. You can hit the buy or you can hit learn more. If you hit learn more, you land on a new page with a cool video that says buy. It's just buy, buy, buy. So anyways, we'll see how this plays out. the challenge is, you know, having this visceral of a reaction, even from tech insiders. Yeah. Wow. There definitely is something to, like, kicking the bear and rage baiting a little bit and getting a bunch of somewhat negative attention.

1:43:25But then people will, there will be a small percentage of people that are like, I'm in, I want to try it. And that works. but it feels like at some point you have to flip into just like normal territory and kind of just speak to the product benefits. In January 31st of 2008, the Apple homepage, do you know what was above the fold? It was right there. What was it? It wasn't the iPhone. It was the world's thinnest notebook, the MacBook Air. You have to click somewhere else to find the iPhone January update. Let me see if they have some other page. They're just like, yeah, put that iPhone in the back.

1:44:03Yeah, we got some iPhones in the back. I mean, the MacBook Air was a beautiful computer, and certainly. Then they had the iMac. The iPhone is really not on display here. It's store. The header is store, Mac, iPod, and iTunes, and then iPhone. iPhone is the fourth item in the bar. It's like the fourth most important if you rank them by importance. but I'm trying to go to apple.com slash iPhone in the internet archive to see how they position it and it's extremely wonky to say features phone iPod internet the fourth feature can you guess the fourth feature of why you would want to buy the iPhone alarm clock nope this is even better you're gonna love this you're gonna love this you're gonna love stock love this no so you got the phone.

1:44:55You got the iPod. You got the internet. The fourth feature for why you would want to buy the iPhone, high technology. I'm not kidding you, dude. High technology. Isn't that remarkable? What does that even mean? Let's find out. I got to click on high technology. It just has an image of like a laser or something like that. I don't know what it is. And then they show some maps and stuff. But what is this high technology that they're pitching? They need to bring that back. Oh, high technology. It means that it has multi-touch. It has wireless. It has an accelerometer and a proximity sensor. That is high tech.

1:45:29Multi-touch was high technology at the time. That feature set allowed you to drink beer, an animated beer. The accelerometer was the reason that you could do that. That's right. That actually was high technology at the time. That was high tech. We don't know how to make high technology. We don't. We don't. I mean, we were talking to the meta team and we were like, make the beer app. What's the beer app? And it's such a jogo, the beer app, but the beer app is a moment that means that you've arrived and you have the crazy developers and people are making memes and they're using your technology in ways that you never could have imagined.

1:46:04If you're not getting memes, you're cooked. Yes, exactly. And Studio Ghibli was that. And we've yet to see that in the Vibes app. Well, what will the friend version of that be? What will be the, you know, becoming a platform? What will be the product or the use case that isn't imagined by the designer that winds up driving value? At least for fun, you know. Like going to wander. Find your happy place. Book a wander with inspiring views. Hotel-grade amenities. Dreamy beds. Top-tier cleaning. 24-7 concierge service. It's a vacation home, but better. Did you see the Fermi IPO? QCAP says the upcoming Fermi IPO will be the most 2025 IPO.

1:46:41All the red flags are there. Literally every single one. There's no revenue. It has a$13 billion valuation. It's powering AI by 2038. There's a nuclear component. The nuclear component will be called the Donald J. Trump generating plant, which only could mean one thing. Buy. I think this is going out on the NASDAQ. Texas-sized IPO. Lose your requirements than NYSE. It's a wild, wild time out there. Be safe. Do your own research. And this, of course, is not financial advice. We might be - Founded only nine months ago. Nine months to get to$13 billion? Is that a new record? Nine months to get to$13 billion?

1:47:22Who's done that? He did it in minutes. Maybe, yeah. He did it in minutes. In the coin world. In minutes, yeah. It went out and minutes later was here. So, Fermi stock listing date nears for AI Data Center and Power Company, backed by Rick Perry. Founded only nine months ago, the company plans to build a Texas-based hypergrid. Let's give it up for hypergrid. I like that. And become a provider of data and power center. They got a cool render here. Super intelligence is out. We're talking about hyper intelligence now. As the rise of AI continues, companies operating in this space relying on the technology are finding that they have two inextricable needs, data centers that can run and process the AI and access to ample energy to power those vast data centers.

1:48:01One new company, Fermi America, props for putting America in the name of the company, aims to offer solutions for both these needs. And this week, Fermi now has plans for an upcoming initial public offering and dual stock listings. They're going to be listing in the UK as well. Fermi America is a very young company. It was only founded this year, just nine months ago in January 2025. The company is so new that its website is still a relatively bare bones affair. They pull it up. It just says, yeah, it looks like a stock website from, looks like they got a template of a website. It just, and it doesn't even look like they replaced all the stock imagery.

1:48:40They just said. They should have vibe-coded something from scratch. Saying. Mixed bag with naming your company after? Enrico Fermi? Just after a famous scientist who's not involved. Obviously, Tesla's done very well. Zach Weinberg has Curie bio after Mary Curie, right? Nicola did not do well, of course. Yeah, so Fermi. Flank Foundation. was uh enrico fermi was an italian uh and naturalized american physicist renowned for being the creator of the world's first artificial nuclear reactor the chicago pile one and a member of the manhattan project he has been called the architect of the nuclear age and the architect of the atomic bomb so anyways let me try to get a little bit more color here given the youth of the company it's no surprise that the majority of americans have most likely never heard of it But they have heard of its co-founder, Rick Perry, the former Texas governor who ran as a GOP contender for president in 2012.

1:49:45Oh, he's behind this? I was trying to think, like, Rick Perry. Rick Perry, I know that name, but it's not in the tech context. After unsuccessful presidential bids, Perry was appointed as the 14th United States Secretary of Energy during President Trump's first term in office. in addition to perry fermi america was also co-founded by toby neubauer a former co-managing partner of quantum energy fermi america intends to be a provider of data and power centers that other companies can use to host their ai needs but i say quote intends to because fermi america doesn't actually provide any services yet heck it doesn't even have any infrastructure yet to provided services what fermi america does have is a lease let's give it up for having a lease a lease for uh 5200 acres of land owned by texas tech university which is where fermi plans to build a hypergrid in an undertaking dubbed project matador the naming is fantastic what is project matador project matador is the name given to fermi america's hypergrid project this hypergrid will be combined data and power center that other companies will pay to lease space on to run.

1:50:59So anyways, they want to deliver up to 11 gigawatts of low carbon, hyper redundant and on-demand power directly to the world's most compute intensive businesses. I mean, there's stuff all over the place. This is the nature of bull markets. You get all kinds of crazy outcomes. Shanu Matthew is sharing a quote from David Einhorn, the hedge fund manager. He's warning that AI's trillion-dollar infrastructure spending could destroy vast capital despite tech being transformative. He questions whether all the extreme spending by hyperscalers will deliver returns, saying there's a reasonable chance of tremendous capital destruction, which we hate.

1:51:41I hate the idea of capital being destroyed. But there's still a lot to look forward to. There's still great products coming out every single day. Like Vibes. Vibes, I think, I mean, we've discussed it a lot. We're going to continue discussing it with our next guest, Rune. But I think that there is a way to have fun on Vibes. I'm already having fun with my promoted post, my Spawn Con. I came in there hot in a rap ad. A TBPN ad. A TBPN ad. I say if you bring your own creativity, you can probably have fun on there. But be careful because you might just wind up in infinite jest world. Anyway, we have our next guest, Rune, the anonymous poster, the world-famous Rune, the TBP and Ultradome.

1:52:35There he is. Welcome to the stream. How are you doing, Rune? Hello, hello. I'm good. How are you? We're fantastic. At long last. I mean it's a great we've been printing your posts for months so thank you for everything that you do for the timeline always providing insight and levity you guys mentioned me four times this week and I was like I gotta come on just to run off the week you know close it out yeah the technology brothers thank you for walking around and reminding the researchers that you guys are holding up the global economy that really is important work. What they're doing and also you to just make them remember.

1:53:18I mean, I know you guys comment on this all the time, but most of the growth in the equity markets is just AI for the past three years. It's like really nothing else. So you got to not make mistakes. Got to keep pumping out great models. Yeah, please don't make mistakes. That's all we're... But yeah, I mean, we talked about it earlier today, The number of companies that are now barnacles on the whale of open AI is… The entire global economy is sort of a barnacle. Yeah, but you can even get more specific. Yes. The oracles, the core weaves, you can make a really long list. Yeah. How are you feeling generally?

1:54:01The timeline was extremely split this morning and yesterday. A lot of incredibly great vibes around ChatGPT Pulse. Less great vibes around the Vibes app. Are you happy with the direction that the productization of AI is going? Are you happy with the rollout and the actual implementation of these models so far? how have you been processing the way these models are making their way into every everyday lives yeah um i don't know like okay the chatbot medium this one thing it's uh i i think the pulse is like a fine and good idea it makes a lot of sense yeah um vibes i don't know but like the the the thing i am like manic about is codex and you've probably seen me tweeting about it like three times a day but like more than that more than that yeah uh like codex and i guess like cloud code are like genuinely amazing uh like i don't want to like you know glaze the company's products too much but like it's like i don't understand how i did software engineering before this i have like 20 terminal agents open and like writing like five different things at once and i have an idea and I just like open up a new terminal and I just like get it working on it and it's like a completely different way of life than anything I was doing before which is like you like linearly slog through one script and I'm like there's like three or four bugs and like I don't know um like it's clear to me that this alone is like completely upends the software industry and you You know, like we're talking about massive data center capex across the industry and like, what is it going to be spent on?

1:55:55And like, even the inference alone for this kind of thing is like, first of all, like super expensive and then like super in demand, I think, once it like really percolates through the economy. So, yeah, I mean, that's the thing that is fueling my mania these days. It reignited my, you know, fuel AGI fire. Well, yeah, so you said completely upending the software industry. What does that actually look like in your mind? Because one thing is if developers are getting, if the average developer gets higher output. Developers are going to be fine. A lot of other people have been like, 90 % of software engineering will be automated, but maybe we do 10 times as much as the same amount.

1:56:37What's the long-term view for you? yeah i i like really don't know about the jobs or whatever it's like extremely non-linear non-linear and hard to predict yeah i feel like there's so much um you know like i see the product managers at my company they're like vibe coding useful apps all the time and like people who are not even engineers are becoming like programmers because of these things and i'm sure that's a case for like the most junior level engineers who are like bright are like now they're like way better than they were before i remember my first year of programming and i was like running to my mentor for like uh you know like how do i run this whatever basic thing and like they just don't have to do that anymore like they have to they can avoid all that embarrassment they have this like amazing agent or like the chat gbt itself or whatever it is to me it would seem like the productivity of an entry-level engineer is like just way higher than it would have been like five years ago um i can't you know speak to yeah jobs impact in like the two years or three years what about what about in terms of like consumer impact i feel like you still hear people complaining about like uh my united airlines app is not as great as it could be and it feels like in a world where software engineering gets way easier, more reliable, higher leverage, like we should start seeing higher quality software diffuse through the everyday lives of people that interface with technology.

1:58:13Does it feel like that's happening, going to start happening, or is there something sort of intractable about an airline booking app that just can't be solved? Yeah. I mean, like, first of all i don't trust people's vibes on this i don't actually think they're paying good attention now the united app looked like three years ago or whatever sure sure i i'm sure it's actually a lot better yeah like i've seen the in-flight displays on united and they're like like what is this it's like space age it's way better than it was before um and okay i don't know that united engineers are using any of these tools maybe they're not maybe their company doesn't allow them maybe they use like some third-party sourcer I have no idea but you know that's what I was saying of course these tools I have no idea what time it takes for them to percolate through an economy or like when people in like the you know like the the non-tech fortune 500s are using them or anything like that but i from everyone i've spoken to that works at like say like gm or ford or something they're like what's codex you know it's not there yet of course not um i hope it will be but the fact that it even exists is just like exhilarating to me do you think codex has the potential to be a hit consumer product and get you know end up eating into the market share of some of these new vibe coding companies.

1:59:49Um, of course, but also, I think they're very excited, like even just the cursor people, because I don't know like there's like a competition between open AI and like Anthropic and that's probably good for them I don't know it's hard for me to say but I'm pretty sure that Curse is killing it and I'm very excited yeah how are you using the various products it seems like you're using Codex all the time are you using Codex on mobile as well are you in sort of like like, you know, wake up in the morning and you have an idea or like a shower thought. And I find myself doing this with just GPT-5 Pro queries or deep research queries.

2:00:36I have some idea, I fire it off and I just wait. But I'm not writing a ton of software. Are you having a similar experience that I'm having with just knowledge retrieval in code generation where you might be firing it off like when you're in the bathroom and getting dinner with someone and you just have a second, you just fire something off? No, I'm just not a hardcore enough engineer to be doing stuff like that. But I definitely use 5 Pro or whatever all the time just to whatever random idea comes to my head. I wake up, I'm researching some statistic or setting off some query like what percent of the economy is software engineers.

2:01:17How much do you think you personally cost OpenAI monthly? Like how much are you? A lot, a lot. I can't say, but a lot. What about other, other use cases? I mean, we saw that a lot of people are using, um, these models for like, uh, like life coaches and just people chatting. And I've never really gone down that path. I don't know. Maybe I'm just busy or I talked to Jordy all day long. So I don't have a lot of room for that. I hit knowledge retrieval constantly. Like the GDP of some country. Yeah. Give me the full history of it. Build a bar chart. I did a deep research report yesterday on the capital of California.

2:01:57Thought for 59 seconds. It ran a hundred searches. I hit that stuff all the time, but I haven't gotten in any sort of flow of asking for interpersonal advice, life coaching, therapy, any of that stuff. Have you had any luck or is that just like a, is that a skill issue or just personality or a certain type of person that uses things that way? Like, do I, how do you think about that use case? Um, I've definitely used it in like a tough corner. Like what decision do I make? And I like have it discussed with me. Yeah. Uh, I don't know. I'm probably not a typical user cause I like read what it says and I'm like, I was, this one seems kind of like bullshit and And this is like a great point and I like weigh it and ignore it and whatever.

2:02:44But yeah, I think actually new sonnet was an amazing model for this. And this was what they called Claude 3.5 sonnet new. And I think that kind of invented this genre of like, I asked Claude for everything in my life. And I think like the latest GPT models can also do this. But like, yeah, there was like memes going around about the the Claude boys back then who just like, yeah, like literally everything they do, they'd run it through Claude. Yeah, it's it's a bit weird for sure. Like, are you, you know, are you being puppeted by an AI? It's a bit loss of control vibes. It's I feel like my interactions with AI are getting less back and forth over the last two years.

2:03:35I used to chat back and forth and ask a lot of follow-up questions. And I feel like now if I just talk to GPT-5 Pro on voice mode for a minute and give it a bunch of context, it's going to come back with a very thorough answer that I might have one or two follow-ups on. But I'm not really – I certainly don't have this concept of like there's one chat that's like fine-tuned at this point on this particular that I – chat, I go over here when I'm asking an economics question, like everything is done at just like a new chat router level, basically. Is that kind of mirror your experience? Yeah, I do think the open-end models are built for that.

2:04:20It's like a single turn, think really hard, get you the right answer type of thing. What about like the flavor of the of the responses like with the GPT-3 API it felt like if you if you prompted it with like the green text you'd get a green text back and it felt like there was a lot of a lot of variation in the style of writing and now we're seeing it maybe it's just the way people are prompting but it feels like there's a little bit of like a consolidation in the in the textual style the stylistic flourishes is the it's not that, it's this, and the M-dash, and all of that. It feels very much like if I opened up your app and asked you and asked the same question, I would get the same stylistic flourishes.

2:05:10And I'm wondering if that's something that you think will continue, or maybe that's just a temporary moment of time and will wind up in the future where someone's talking to the vibes of Claude 3.5, maybe in a completely different model, but they have those vibes over there, and then someone has 4.0 vibes over here, but they're not talking to literal 4.0 or literal 3.5, but they've kind of landed in a local minima of this is the tone that they like for all of their interactions.

2:05:42Yeah, these are great questions. I mean, like the GPD-3 model to me was like my first feel-to-AGI kind of like hair-raising moment. I remember playing with it and just being like, oh, this thing's intelligent in ways that are like, yeah, just like non-trivial, creative, etc. But people are also like too rosy about like the base models. They just don't, they're like extremely random. They like, they don't even have a concept of, you know, like we talk about hallucination, but what the base model is doing is only hallucination. Like it's not, you know, maybe one out of 20 completions will have a coherent like front to back like sensical text.

2:06:31And there are people who can do like magical things with it. But there is a reason there is no like GPT-3 moment. And there was like a chat GPT moment where like the like it took off among consumers. And same with like Claude and and whatever. Right. But there is like at all these companies, there's this, what do you call it, like a path dependence of post training. So like the models sample and you collect comparisons between model samples and you're like. I shouldn't talk too much about post training, but like the point being, like you are very reliant on the previous generation of models to train.

2:07:16your next model and so there's like some style burn-in that goes on sure and like the late clods resemble early clob and like the late groks resemble early grok and so on um and yeah and like they all have some similarities probably because of like well i mean they're all training on the same giant data set of the internet more or less and they also have like these common data sets i I guess I just wonder if like there's, there's demand from people for more variation in vibes. I was, uh, I was asking Mark Chen about this where, um, like I was like, everyone was saying GPT 4.5 had a big model smell, better, like flavor to it, better writer.

2:08:04Uh, but deep research was the one that could get you all the results. And I was like, so is the best practice for me now that I should like run a deep research report and then take that to GPT 4.5 and say, hey, rewrite this better. And I'm wondering if there's some world where there's just demand for like, I like a lowercase person to chat with. I like really punchy. I mean, I guess you can kind of put that in the prompts, but I'm wondering if that's like at some point going to be an emergent property. I think you should try the FAB thinking model if you have some use cases like that. But OK, yeah.

2:08:41Yeah, it's the same thing. Yeah. Does that work for you? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's honestly like I'm fine with the with the I like the the the flavor and the vibe that it comes back to me with. It's just it is impersonal. But but that's exactly what I'm doing. But that's exactly what I'm hitting it with. And I want that. I want it to be a an assistant. I want it to be a helpful assistant. I want it to be like a textbook. I want bullet points. I want M dashes. I want clear analogies. And so I'm very satisfied. So I'm wondering if, I mean, maybe it's just a revealed preference versus stated preference, but it seems like there's a lot of stated preference out there that people are sick of M dashes.

2:09:20And if it's not this, it's that. And it's certainly like a tell that someone used to LLM. But, but I was just, I was just thinking more about like how, if there really are people out there with the revealed preference, with the true preference for something. And will the models eventually be able to be many things to many people, show a different face to every single different person? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think the end stage is like extremely personalized models that speak to you, guess, even before you even tell them what it is that you want the model to sound like yeah i see no real reason that's like not possible yeah just a matter of doing it and the what else do you think um do you think memory will start to be like feel like more of a moat as uh products like pulse get more popular it feels like this is the first time that uh uh you know i i don't well can i ask you guys a question please yeah when i saw the first episode it was called the technology brothers podcast network what happened it was just technology brothers and okay and then we had a big problem which was that better which was that our community teapot uh-huh and and and the tech community broadly honored that we were calling it technology Brothers.

2:10:53But when journalists would write about Technology Brothers, they would introduce us as John and Jordy, the tech bros, and they would shorten it, which was massively disrespectful. And so once we realized we were doing our life's work, we did not want to spend the next 30 years everywhere we go being introduced as the tech bros. And so... Yeah, that's disrespectful. If they had called you Jordy and John, the technology brothers, that's beautiful. We would have kept riding with it, but it was a big problem. It's a battle we lost. Okay. I believe you credited me with that one. You pulled up a tweet on the first episode.

2:11:34Yeah, you were one of the first people to truly expand tech bros into technology brothers. So thank you for popularizing the term. What do you think? I accept your change, yeah. What do you think of what Thinking Machine has been putting out lately? I think it's really cool that new labs, they're incentivized to speak very openly about their research. Because it's a great recruiting mechanism. You're like, there's some cool research you're doing. And let me come join. and then like i don't know maybe i guess facebook was pursuing this strategy a while back uh or meta or whatever they're called now they they would uh they open source everything they write a lot of public papers and it was a big draw for people um i haven't read the latest paper but i read the last one it was something i had been wondering about for a while and like was a common question in the industry about uh determinism and non-determinism and so on yeah it's it's good stuff.

2:12:41It's good stuff. I don't know. It's great stuff. I don't know specifically what they're working on. I've heard rumors, but I won't. I can't. I shouldn't talk about it. What about hardware form factors? What's, you know, speak generally. You don't have to talk about what you guys are working on internally, but what's exciting to you in hardware broadly? Do we need new dedicated devices, or is the phone good enough? I don't know. I don't have the answers to that. I genuinely don't think about the hardware side very much. Well, that says something in itself. Yeah, I mean, I'm pretty happy with my chat GPT on my phone.

2:13:24What was on your pulse today? I don't think I checked. I used to say a check right now. Check right now. Mine was shockingly interesting. Pulse is a window into the mind. It was extremely interesting talking about bottlenecks and compute revolutions and retired coal plants powering AI campuses. And it even had one I was searching for different options for bonded cellular networks. So if you want to bond a Verizon and AT &T like SIM card together to get like a really powerful Wi-Fi hotspot on the go for live streaming, obviously. And it had a whole deep dive on that. And it's like, yeah, I'd search for that, but I would love to have that resurfaced to me in a different format.

2:14:10Right. And so I was very pleased with the results. And it also felt like deeply, maybe it's just like the way I've been using the product, but it felt deeply anti-brain rot. It felt like, oh, these are articles. I don't even know what you would call them, but summaries that certainly push me to go deeper into something that's actually hard work learning as opposed to something that's more like candy and helping me just kind of tune out things. I enjoyed that. Look, here's like mine is just exactly what you expect. It's like tracking AI's impact on power markets. It's like Chinese infrastructure spend.

2:14:50And it's all this kind of stuff. Yeah. It's a very predictable technology and business. Now I want to know. Share that article with me. I want to know about Chinese infrastructure investments and how they're tracking with the US. Well, maybe that's a feature. Rune shared his pulse today. I think so. Check it out. I mean, you can already share the link. So, yeah, you'll need to be able to share it in the app. Anyway, what else is keeping you up these days? you were talking you kind of laid out we reviewed the post on the show just talking more broadly about the nature of process power and Dan Wang's book have you where do you sit on the general characterization of the lawyerly society in America does it feel like we are becoming more lawyerly or less lawyerly well some prominent engineers founders and AI have certainly gotten litigious recently so maybe America could do both at the same time many engineers are crossing over into the government yeah I guess what is interesting to me is like the extreme depth of the capital markets in the US where like one company can raise hundreds of billions of dollars on infrastructure spend and you know together the industry is spending i have no idea like you guys probably know the numbers better than i do um and that's like that's very interesting so where are the like you know if it's like such a lawyerly society why are we able to do this why are we able to spend so much um and you know of course it's true like if you look at like the west side of san francisco it's like it should not be this like rose and rose of single family houses it's like quite a waste it's quite a shame but um there's many things like that that people have talked about ad infinitum but in general it's like okay like elon musk showed up and he revolutionized two industries right like the space travel um and the electric cars and i'm sure he fought with regulators and like there's a bunch of lawsuits and whatever but like you know he's like his i guess his will to power or whatever made it work and so i am always a bit skeptical when people say like you know the u.s is impossible to innovate in because of regulations or uh it seems like it's it's getting done people do it um yeah you know maybe like the The highest level of government is more lawyerly in the U.S.

2:17:39than China. There's also benefits to that, which Dan Wang talks about. I don't want to get into it, but I think you guys know the upsides of the great rule of law and whatnot. Yeah, I do wonder if, yeah, I mean, that's kind of the odd counter take is that maybe the depth of the financial markets is actually an outgrowth of the lawyerly society. When you have a bunch of lawyers who can create robust contracts where somebody feels comfortable parting with$10 billion,$100 billion. Is that a function of engineering? It might be a function of financial engineering in some ways, but it is also a function of strong legal contracts and the work of lawyers to be creative, but also fair in a way that instills confidence in the capital market such that the company is willing to deploy$100 billion and know that at least there's an understanding of the pathway to the return on investment.

2:18:49and that there's less uncertainty. Well, on the other hand, you have TikTok allegedly selling for$14 billion, which I'm sure is less than what was spent to grow TikTok in the US. I don't know. But that's more government intervention. I feel like it's worth a couple more zeros than that. Yeah. Just a couple. It does seem... Do you think the Gartner hype cycle as being over applied in the context of ai do you think we could just have a straight line acceleration and um there's no there's no trough or are you trough pilled i just don't get this thing where people like overlay graphs and they like do this like high level pattern matching when it's like okay like let's look at the basics which is to me the basics are codex which is like Like, literally, as of two months ago, this was not a thing.

2:19:46And now it's a thing. And it's, like, to me, a mind-blowing product. I can't stress this enough. And, okay, like, that alone is going to create just enormous revenue streams for both OpenAI and Anthropic, I assume, and Cursor. So, like, I don't know. I just don't. It doesn't seem worth... Yeah, of course. The whole world is still over-leveraged. So will it create a trillion-dollar revenue stream?

2:20:25I don't think it needs to create a trillion-dollar revenue stream to keep up with the data center plans. But that's not for me to say. You should get on the CFO or something of one of these companies and ask them. What about, give us your read on the state of open source today. Open AI's open source models were demanded, they were released, and then you don't hear, you know, there haven't been a lot of noise surrounding them, but certainly a lot of noise coming around some of the Chinese open source models. But what's your kind of current framework? High-level thinking on open source models? Yeah.

2:21:12Yeah. Well, there's two takes on that. One is that people demanded it, but they didn't actually want it. The other is that maybe the OSS model just wasn't meeting the market needs or like it was not good at whatever it is the market wanted. I don't know. To me, it's a stated versus revealed preference, at least for a lot of the people that were most loudly demanding open source. I will say some of these, the Chinese Kimi K2 model is really quite excellent to me. It's a great writer. It's the model I compare against most internally. It's kind of cool. I mean, people have been demanding open source versions of technology for a long time.

2:22:03There were open source social networks and open source version of Shopify. And yet Shopify accrued all the value and no one's forking that particular Ruby on Rails project just to get their e-commerce store up and running. I think there's like two problems with the kind of hype around open source. One is like, okay, you've open sourced some model, but it's also clear that that doesn't immediately make it accessible to like a billion people. Totally. Like, obviously, the ChatGPT product and, you know, like whatever else, Grok is hugely downloaded, Gemini, whatever. But like the, it's like by far the easiest way for someone to access AI and for free.

2:22:50They're like doing it for free. um so like on that angle it's not really all that decentralized just because the model weights are like flying around um second of all if everything was always open source you guys know as well as i do that it's like whole industry would never support this kind of capex um and this rmd spend and whatever and so like there's just no there's no way like that that's just the only way to do things and like that's i you know just just normal capitalism you know yeah a question from the chat did you read one piece no i have not i have a bunch of friends who swear by it but i've never never gone into that are there any other long are there any other uh cultural influences that you pull from favorite movies books comic books oh yeah of course all the time i mean top of the stack my favorite show ever is probably this anime called evangelion oh yeah it's like a 90s tv show it's like kind of grim but like in like is this the staple of like the mecca fighter genre yeah are there are there metaphors from is it evangelion or evangelion uh is there a metaphor it's called evangelion yeah evangelion yeah it's a because that's like the way the japanese say Yeah.

2:24:17Is there are there themes in that story that people pull from and apply to like the modern world and they go, oh, this is just like Evangelion, Evangelion. I certainly think there's like a dense religious metaphor in there for like, I don't know.

2:24:38It's like a classic coming of age tale where. Bill Dungerman. exactly that's what they call it and this this kid he's kind of like a depressive anti like he's got none of the good qualities of protagonist he's like constantly crashing out and he's like uh there's a bunch of girls who are into him and he's like not capable of talking to any of them and he you know but he's like magically like the best guy in the world at piloting these robots to beat these aliens and like humanity keeps calling on him even though he's like being mentally destroyed to come combat the aliens and it's a lesson in there yeah if you can crash out and not talk to women but if you're good at if you're good at driving the robot history will remember your name for sure totally what's the best way it started with evangelion start with episode one there's only just watch it it's not like oh you got to read the books first that type of thing you know how people will say that about like don't watch the movie until you read the books or whatever um if you want to get really pedantic anal about it there's like a different subtitles that came out in the 90s that are better than the netflix subtitles but like it's not really that important you know like it's a pretty big barrier to entry um okay there's 26 episodes in a movie it's pretty straightforward it's not like some crazy watch order and whatnot okay maybe i'll check it out yeah yeah what's your media uh what's the current state of the talent wars from your view did we peak over the summer or is it still just as intense what's your read on it i mean it seems like okay if a researcher is a manager of compute and the compute number are growing and then like the effectiveness of a researcher is more and more important than i don't know like that line is uh trending up into the right as far as i can tell but do you guys agree does that logic make sense i don't know 100 i think the logic makes yeah i just think it's interesting that we're seeing essentially the same thing play out that we've seen for, I don't know, for generations in entrepreneurship where a founder can marshal capital and have leverage and incredible economic upside.

2:27:12Now we're seeing founder level wealth and financial outcomes applied to employees, which is just a different thing. It used to be in order to get the big, big numbers, you had to go build something externally and then the board would justify paying you a bunch to bring it in in-house and now it feels like companies are more they've actually just cracked the code on hey come work here build this thing that's going to deliver a bunch of value and we will pay you like you're a founder that was out in the wilderness and we acquired in um and it feels like it's in some ways it always should have been this way it feels like an aqua hire to me like just some sort of distributed aqua hire totally yeah yeah that That was my framing for it.

2:27:59You just have to look at it as an unauthorized distributed acquihire. Yeah. It's like, you know. Okay. And like how much did Zuck pay in total for all these researchers over the course of four years? Yeah. Is it like that enormous? Is it like, I don't know. Certainly not relative to the market cap. Certainly not relative to the market cap. And especially if you just think about like even if you take the boring view of like AI is just another business line that they need to be in. You know, it's like, oh, they're spinning up a new division. It's like, well, if the new division drives 10 % of their revenue or 20%, it becomes a significant business line.

2:28:36Investing 1 % of your market cap makes a ton of sense to actually just like be in there. There's way more complicated dynamics there. But even if you just saw it as like, we need an infrastructure team. We need a database team. We need a front end team. It's like you need an AI team. And you're going to have leverage in this case. What do you think about this Rich Sutton take that's going out, just dropped on the Dorcas show? LLMs are maybe not bitter lesson-pilled. This idea that we need an entirely new format. People have been saying this for a very, very long time. Deep learning is going to hit a wall, then we come out with something new.

2:29:12What are your thoughts on the father of reinforcement learning, potentially not thinking that LLMs are bitter lesson-pilled? I think this is a common sentiment at like DeepMind that they were always like, they kind of held language models with a bit of like, this is icky, this is not pure, because we're not starting from scratch. We're learning from the human internet. And that's like, that's not, you know, it's not pure in some sense, unlike say AlphaZero, which is learned from nothing, like you just self play yourself to superhuman performance. So, yeah, like maybe it's not completely the most bitter lesson pill paradigm in the world.

2:30:00But like, I don't know, that doesn't mean to me that it won't like reach extremely useful levels of intelligence. And you should ask Ilya. It already is. It already is really useful. Like, yeah, it's like the question of like, will we get value out of this is like answered by DAUs and just a million anecdotes of people that use the products in my in my opinion. Jordy, anything else? I got a lot more stuff, but we're over time. Yeah. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Glad we finally made this happen. Thank you for posting the posts that make this show possible. We truly enjoy covering everyone.

2:30:39John, you want to hit the gong for Rune? Yes. Congratulations. Can't get out without a gong. What an honor. What an honor. 250 ,000 followers on X, I believe, is roughly the number, something like that. It's definitely gong worthy. There we go. Hit it. good stuff rune thanks for thank you for your thoughts and your posts and uh have a wonderful friday have a great weekend thanks for having me on we'll talk cheers soon good stuff let's go back to the timeline run through some posts before we get out of here uh for me already everyone in this company was given a whoop and is required to share their data.

2:31:20This seems like something we would do if they'd sleep. Is this? I used this to assign more work to those who are sleeping a little too well. You are a healthy military-aged man. Why do you need eight hours of sleep? Because you need a high sleep score. But this is a lot of fun. I believe Omar Wasim. I feel like I've met him. Anyway. Where should we go? There's some big posts. What is up with this bagel? The pop-up bagel shop. Do you know about this, Jordy? Chris This corner says, I'm calling it right now. This will be the next billion-dollar franchise brand, the next crumble. They're copy-pasting the crumble playbook, a playbook I'm not familiar with.

2:31:57300-plus franchises sold in the first month, 2 to 5 million gross per store, with 25 % net margins after fees lines out the door. So I'm not familiar with the crumble story. This feels like some - Crumble Cookies is probably the breakout franchise of the last five, ten, I think more like five years. So they sell cookies all over the country now, franchise model. So I think they maybe operated their first few stores. They now are very focused on the franchise model. They have cookies that are probably the least healthy thing that you could put into your body. They're really over the top, right?

2:32:41It's like a whole cake in a cookie, basically. Yeah, yeah. Really dense. Super high calorie. I'm sure they're super tasty all over the country now. But it sounds like a unique business model where they've cracked the code on scaling retail through franchisees very soon. You always hear about McDonald's and Burger King franchisees. Yeah, if you can have a durable hit consumer franchise, it's one of the most amazing businesses in the world. You get paid some percentage off the top. So it's not a percentage of profits. You're getting a percentage of gross revenue in exchange for giving somebody access to your brand and menu and supply chain.

2:33:20It is valuable. And they sort of have an entrepreneurial outcome as well. There's plenty of towns where there's a guy who owns a couple McDonald's and does very well and has a boat. And then there's also Patrick O'Shaughnessy profiled the company, some street advisor company that does roll-ups of them and has done very well as well. Yeah, tons of examples of people making a lot of money in franchises. You can start with working in one, then you can transition to being an operator, then you can add more, you can buy more, you can roll them up. And they trade at pretty, if you have a bunch of Burger Kings, they trade at a great multiple because it's a durable brand.

2:33:57And so, yeah, I think 300 franchises is crazy because they're getting a ton of upfront revenue and then they'll get a percentage of the gross over time. Look at this post from Jeremy Giffon. He says, staying below a$10 million deal size for 25 years is remarkable. The real lesson from Mark Leonard, the founder of Constellation, to me is of maniacal discipline. And so the value of acquisitions was, what is this? Average price per acquisition was, wow, down at$5 million for 2007 all the way through 2012. And then still really low for a decade. And paid a little bit more in 2013 and is now starting to pay more.

2:34:47But really just, I mean, people think about these like private equity software roll-ups. you know the software company sells for you know we see the marks people raise 20 million dollars they sell for 100 million 200 million that's the one that gets the attention but there are so many companies that are selling for 10 million dollars 5 million dollars 20 million dollars and constellations picking them all up and built like a fantastic business integrating all these you have to have some serious infrastructure to to do something with a five million dollar business like that you just acquired but yeah certainly good coverage uh buco capital has a great post here from Intel.

2:35:24Apparently it was up another 19 % yesterday. Wow, it's up another 20 % in the last five days. I mean, do you know the story here? So Intel reached out to Apple and TSMC for investment as well. And so NVIDIA wound up just kind of getting in early. As NVIDIA was like, we're going to do something. USA got in early. The USA got in extremely early. Why don't you read through that? Read through that. I'll be right back. Yeah, sure. So the news is that Apple and TSMC might be playing ball, might open up the checkbooks for Intel. Efforts to gain tech backers accelerate in the wake of U.S. 10 % stake in chipmaker.

2:36:03Of course, Donald Trump and the U.S. government announced a 10 % stake in Intel. Intel chief executive Lip Bhutan has been hustling to secure investments and customer commitments needed for the chipmaker's comeback. Among the companies Intel has approached about investments or manufacturing partnerships are Apple and TSMC, Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing. Those efforts were already underway before President Trump showed an interest in the company last month, but has since gone into overdrive since the U.S. took a 10 % stake in it, according to people familiar. The Trump administration has been using its influence to help revive Intel's sagging fortunes.

2:36:42Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick and others in the administration have for months been urging tech companies to work more closely with Intel, which was for long the world's largest semiconductor firm before losing its lead to TSMC. SoftBank made a$2 billion investment in Intel. NVIDIA made a$5 billion investment in Intel. And that also includes a provision for Intel to design new hardware to integrate with NVIDIA's chips. Masayoshi Son and Jensen Wong have both been demonstrative in their support of the administration's technology agenda, which includes building up domestic semiconductor manufacturing capacity and supercharging the construction of data centers needed by the artificial intelligence industry.

2:37:31Bloomberg earlier reported on Intel's overtures to Apple. Tan earlier this year met with Tim Cook and has also spoken to CC Way, his counterpart at TSMC, about a partnership or joint venture, according to people familiar with the matter. And so basically there's a question about how much can Apple even get out of Intel? Apple, of course, moved off of Intel chips and is now going direct to TSMC with the Apple Silicon project. And Apple doesn't pay a lot to Intel, if anything. I mean, they sell like one Intel Mac still. It's like 10 years old refurbished. It's like a very slow computer. But of course, there are still things that Apple needs Intel chips for in the server and in to run their data centers.

2:38:17Every company is kind of a customer of every other company, so there's probably something to be done there. But the question of how would an Apple Intel deal actually work is way less clear than an NVIDIA Intel deal because NVIDIA sells the Hopper chip, but then they sell Grace, which is the CPU. They call it Grace Hopper. And you got Donald Trump, who led the Series A. He did. So now Intel is trying to raise the B. and the Series A lead is going to look at potential B leads and say, hey, come on. It's kind of like that. I think the better analogy is more like the Series B lead is going to the Series A lead and saying, because Apple and Intel grew up together.

2:39:01Apple exists because Intel exists. Apple would not have been able to build that MacBook Air that we saw from 2007 without Intel. There was an Intel chip in the Mac for a long time. And so Apple's been a beneficiary. You should be front and center in the marketing. Exactly. Intel inside. You're buying this new computer because. Yes. And so Apple has gotten so much out of Intel. They're so rich. They have deep pockets. They have tons of cash. And so the Series B lead is saying, hey, I'm going to do a bridge round here. But the Series A lead's got to come in if they want to maintain their position or they're getting crammed down.

2:39:36crammed down in this position, in this scenario, is getting crammed down in tariffs or getting crammed down in taxes or some other thing. It's all part of this art of the deal craziness. But it does seem like if you're Apple, you say, hey, there's a way to extend an olive branch to the administration with their technology agenda. They want to bring back semiconductor manufacturing in the United States. We're just going to see this as an investment. We could put our money in treasury bills. We could put our money in Intel stock. Let's put some money in Intel stock. It makes everyone happy. And so that might wind up being the nature of this deal.

2:40:17But then at the same time, it's totally possible that Apple wants to do some sort of new chip design. They want to go to Intel and they want to fab it with Intel and they find a way to do that. There is a world where Intel becomes a manufacturer for Apple Silicon chips because they are trying to get their most cutting-edge node off the ground. They don't have customers. This is the famous thing that Liputon said on that quarterly earnings call that panicked everyone. He was like, the big thing that we've been planning, no one wants it. And so that raised alarm bells, and that's where all this kind of came from.

2:40:52And Apple could potentially go to them and say, hey, yeah, the next iPhone chip or the next Mac chip will work with TSMC. We're happy with TSMC, but we'll also work with you, Intel, on your new fab that gets up and running if you can deliver at these levels. And how are they going to deliver on that level? They need a lot of cash, so we're also putting up the cash. And so another sort of circular deal, but the administration is kind of like greasing the wheels of all these deals to hopefully get Intel back on its feet and restore American semiconductor manufacturing. Feels like a worthwhile. In the meantime, Leopold is printing.

2:41:27So congratulations to him. Um, what else is going on? You shared a story about a RadioShack Ponzi. Well, this was Tai Lopez. Oh, yes. I'm familiar with this. He did something. He managed to raise like hundreds of millions of dollars for the new RadioShack brand. Yes. That I think turned into crypto. He was buying all sorts of interesting things. Here on imports. primary business. So, uh, Tai Lopez is famous for the here in my garage guru video. That was, uh, kind of sort of a book club, I think at the bottom of the funnel, sort of a, how to get rich, educational, inspirational hustle type genre of social media influencer, huge buyer of YouTube ads in the early days.

2:42:12Everyone saw that here in my garage video. Uh, but he went on a spree. Rev's primary business was purchasing distressed retail companies with name brand recognition and converting them to e-commerce only businesses. The securities offering that at issue involved eight rev portfolio companies, Brahms, Dress Barn, Franklin Mint, Linens and Things, which I have heard of, Models, Pier One, which I've heard of, and Radio Shack, which I've also heard of, and I've never heard of Steinmart. Franklin Mint, Radio Shack. This is, of course, from Matt Levine, one of the greatest writers on the internet these days.

2:42:46Not Bed Bath & Beyond, not GameStop, Bed Bath & Beyond sure was distressed. It filed for horrific bankruptcy in 2023, but before it raised a ton of money from retail investors and absolutely doomed at the market offerings. As its bankruptcy lawyers later put it, it raised that money as part of the meme stock movement started and fueled on Reddit boards and social media website because, quote, it checked the two boxes needed to become a meme stock, a troubled financial situation, and nostalgia value. And because it checked those boxes, Bed Bath was able to go out to ordinary investors and get them to shovel money into a furnace.

2:43:22GameStop was also a part of that movement. Where is GameStop trading these days? GameStop was that movement because it was troubled and nostalgic. If you're nostalgic and troubled... We got a stock for you. GameStop up 18 % in the last month. No way. But down 13 % year to date. What's the market cap? caps$11 billion. That's huge. I feel like that's a lot. I mean, Bed Bath & Beyond is bankrupt, so it's a zero. On a relative basis, that's the meme stock that had some value for a medium amount of time, we'll see. But it did so well out of being a meme stock that it's no longer particularly distressed.

2:44:03GameStop, as you saw, is going. But it's definitely pivoting to e-commerce. My point here is that if you go to retail investors and say, hey, let's teach those fat Cats on Wall Street, a lesson. We're going to revive Radio Shack. But with e-commerce, you're tapping into some deep and obvious patterns and you will undoubtedly raise a bunch of money that you can steal it. The quote at the top is from a Securities Exchange Commission enforcement complaint against Taneo Adrian Lopez, Alexander Mayer, and Maya Birkenrode. Bloomberg News reports, a company that snatched up distressed brick and mortar brands, including Radio Shack Pier 1 Imports and promised investors big returns and a pivot to e-commerce operated like a Ponzi scheme.

2:44:44Yeah, so they actually raised debt. And they were offering a 25 % preferred return. Yeah. And anyways, there were a lot of red flags. It's pretty crazy. They put out promotional videos that bragged that the portfolio companies were, quote, on fire, which the regulators did not like. It says in the complaint that while some of the retailer brands generated revenue, None generated any profits. At least 5.9 million of the returns distributed to investors were in reality Ponzi-like payments funded by other investors. Now, so you framed it as debt. It sounds like they were equity investments that were paying some sort of fake dividend.

2:45:28No, I think they were paying a fake dividend on the debt. Oh, really? It was like, ooh. Uh-oh. Yeah. So there's a lot going wrong there. So they accused the defendants of misappropriating approximately$16.1 million in investor funds, which were diverted to defendants Lopez and Mayer's personal use. That's not good. The complaint also explains the business strategy, or at least the fundraising strategy. So Rev's primary business was identifying distressed companies with name brand recognition, raising funds from investors in order to purchase the brand's assets and converting them into successful e-commerce-only businesses.

2:46:03and one promotional video publicly available on the internet. Tai Lopez touted Rev's business approach as, quote, one of the best strategies you can invest in. That sounds like financial advice. I wouldn't do it myself. Yeah. Seems right. So anyways, Matt Levine finishes off, quote, a troubled financial situation and nostalgia value, two best things you can have to raise money from individual investors in the 2020s. so I think enough people are getting burned on these now that that uh I I think people will will learn their lesson yeah hopefully but history repeats or at least it rhymes well well it's been a fantastic show great show it is now uh it's close to the weekend it is uh whatever you're doing have a great time we will be back Monday be back Monday or another episode.

2:46:55We'll talk to you soon. Have a great evening. Have a great weekend. Cheers. Bye.